The Wolf Of All Streets - Trump Raises $21M: BTC Deciding the Next US President? | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: July 31, 2024

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Tom, it's good to have you. Hey, good to see you again. I was just thinking about Master Ventures, I think it was yesterday. What's your strategy like, guys? How has it shifted? Bohid is extremely bearish on the VC world. I'm not, but you know who I hate. Anyone that doesn't know who I hate is our chairman and our largest investor at IBC.

What's your stance, Carl, and everyone else at the team? the team yeah i mean there's an enormous amount of dry powder out there still for vc funds um you know most of them are only even the bigger ones 50 deployed we've seen a number of the bigger vc funds actually park money in like maker or um even do a lot of otc deals we've seen a lot of purchases of likeana OTC, AVAX OTC, because frankly, there's just not a huge amount of projects right now that are super interesting. I don't know if it's the summer lull or just that people have sort of run out of ideas for the short term.

So right now, it's really tactical for us, very active on the liquid side, very active in a lot of the KOL rounds for things that are getting closer to TGE. But it just seems like a really slow summer. And a lot of the projects that we've invested in or keep talking to for investment today are going to TGE September, October. And I thought it's what worries me the most is that you're going to have an enormous cohort of the market, go to market, and all of these tokens come online in September, October. And I'm not 100% sure who the net new buyer is on chain. I get people are coming in through the ETFs, but who the hell is buying, I don't know, random DeFi token 500 right now. So just trying to be really tactical and smart with it, playing a lot in the liquid markets.

That was a long... That was the short way of saying, or long way of saying, Mario, Tom and I have discussed this, that most of capital for quality projects was already deployed for the next cycle. I mean, when I talked to Arthur Hayes four months ago, he was like, oh, we're done. We're not writing another check this cycle. Why? Can you elaborate on that point? Exactly what Tom said. So, I mean, either... What? There's no interest in your projects?

There's just no money. There's no money. You know how, like, A, you have a skeptical retail. B, there is no new retail. Now, they could come in and fall. But even if they come in and fall versus previous cycles,

you're going to have 100 times as many tokens hitting the market at the same time and still unlocks from previous cycles question guys in the previous cycle at this time how was the market doing quiet but not like this so the big move was in my mind from my memory early 21. so obviously the cycle sort of started in uh 2020 august guess, would be kind of the equivalent of 2024 that we're approaching because MicroStrategy bought Bitcoin. That's what sort of sparked it. And then you were four to six months after the halving. October 1st, literally Bitcoin skyrocketed, the kind of October on that first day. And then we saw parabolic moves from all these VC presale tokens, basically January to May. You had a four-month window or so. And it was only the ones that went nuts. I mean, these things were launching at $1,000, $2,000x, literally what presale people

had bought. Now people get excited at $3,000 or $4, four. And by the time you vest, it's obviously dead. You lose your money or break even. And those were the ones that were unlocking 50% of the tokens as fast as they could right into that summer lull. And it was the first time we've really seen the proliferation of that model. We've seen ICOs in 2017, but it was different. And so now, right now, it's been meme coins. Those have kind of died as well. But I'm very skeptical and concerned. And the ones that we have seen launch, even that are high quality, Mario, and you and I talked about this, even the ones that launched in January, February, March of this year, that quote unquote, did well, all are down 95% from them.

So the problem is anyone who's bought literally a single one of these tokens in retail, forget private investors or whatever, they're all, there's not a single person who's made a single dollar as retail buying any presale yet. So yeah, I just think, first, let me get other thoughts before I give my opinion, because this doesn't make sense. Tom, Dan? Yeah, real quick, but sorry, I want to go to Dan. But just, you know, we had only about 700,000 tokens in 2022, or sorry, 2020, 2021. Right now, we have over 5 million and have like 50 to 100k launching a day.

And a lot of that is meme coins, yes, but that absorbs capital that's on chain that would otherwise be going to productive projects. So it's a totally different meta. And then you have the fact that all these LPs and others who had money in crypto are still tied up from 2020. So I looked at the recent report of VCs who have invested 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023. The top quartile, so that's 75% of the funds that have invested 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, the top quartile, so that's 75% of the funds that have invested over that period have not returned capital to investors. So you have all of this money

that's still locked up in VC funds and tied on the sidelines that just has like no chance of being invested in the next quarter or two. And Tom, if they're losing money, imagine what the retail does who buys it at 50, 30, 50,10x of what those private investors bought it at. I haven't seen anything launch and go up.

I've seen things launch high versus private sale price, but I haven't seen anything launch high and rise. So you have to realize that the people who are buying it and people are hoping will invest in these are buying a top on the way down at best so far. Dan? Yeah, so this is like my third cycle. So what you're seeing now is the journey come lately to this market. I think most of the companies are going to do well. The things that have built so far have been building it already. When they come into market now and they're selling,

this is the bad time. So like when I joined, I joined finance you know in 2018, that was a deep bear market and finance was building through that. I was getting paid my salary in BNB. That was the time to be in on that project you know when the chips are down. Things that come around now, I mean I don't have the data to back this up but it's just more of a feeling having been through these many cycles. People that are coming to the market now to launch tokens now are the journey come late because of this market, and they're not where you want to be investing in. Very rarely.

There's some exceptions, I agree, but very rarely it's going to return you good money. It just doesn't make sense. What doesn't add up for me, Dom, is that, as I said yesterday, we're at a stage in the market. I know we're going to move to a different topic, but we're at a stage in the cycle, crypto cycle, where this is the time for startups to come in. The talent is coming in more than ever. I think the market has matured to that level. It's no longer mocked. Play-to-earn gaming is no longer looked at as a pyramid scheme.

Web 3.0 AI is not taken seriously. So DeFi has just gone to a new level. And obviously L1s and L2s, you know, a lot of these promises are starting to materialize. There's way too many of them that are over-promised. But I think that we're at a... Like, it just feels like this should

be the time when VC funding hits all-time highs and the talent really starts flooding the industry. You're being crowded out by the journey coming opportunity. So, yes, there are some, but are you able to pick that needle in the haystack and that diamond rub? You're being overwhelmed by that. Yeah, and Dan, I think more importantly, listen, I'm not saying that things won't do well,

but I think to your point, and more importantly, even Mario, you can have a very successful game at this point and the token can get wrecked. Right? So just because there's good things being built doesn't mean anyone will make money on the tokens. These are not stocks. I mean, for example, people are not trying to pick on XRP at all. It's actually been performing well. But XRP could go to zero and ripple could be an exceptionally profitable business.

If you bought it now, your token, your token would be over hard. He'll be overvalued. So even if it had real value, it would be overvalued based on the sentiment of the market, everything that's around it. So even if you had valuable stuff, it would go down. Isn't that just bad tokenomics? That's right. Everything, literally everything, there's no such thing as good tokenomics

for retail. No such thing. That's pretty extreme. I think people buying a token to play a game is good tokenomics. Not if they buy it when it launches, is what I'm saying. Maybe there's things now that, like, if there's something that's launched already and is down

like 90 and you believe the game is going to be great then i think that there could be some value there but i think to dan's point for the average person who maybe doesn't have access to discounted deals and such picking a winner the odds of that are like right now or like winning the lottery okay yeah i i let you dig in. I think it's an interesting conversation, actually. I think it's more interested than... Here's the other conversation.

Tom, I know you've got some more points to make, but can you play devil's advocate after making your points? Because the other perspective of this is there's a lot of money sitting there. As in ASICCZ raising another fund an as an uh asex easy raising another fund as well pat terras are raising another fund correct me if i'm wrong from memory i could be wrong there um and a lot of these big vcs are just being able to raise money after at you know won't those be investments that best next cycle for them though yeah so what so so again they've got a lot of funds from previous cycles as well that haven't been deployed um no yeah so i guess

the devil's advocate would be that here's the value flow so big vc raises a ton of money they have whatever 750 million dollars a billion like pantera does they mark projects up they invest in higher rounds they give xyz project 20 30 million, that project now has money to invest in airdrops or other points forming mechanisms or something that now filters back to retail. Retail sells, has that money on chain, and then goes and buys other potential assets. Now, that could work. And that flow could take, I don't know, whatever, a quarter or two. But the challenge that I'm sort of pointing out is that price is set at the margin and flows, as we've seen in traditional markets, are what

actually sells and sets price. And you've seen this with the ETFs. Flows are what matters. So where are the flows for a lot of these projects? Now, it could be like that mechanism that I just mentioned from airdrops into new projects. But most people who are crypto curious are now just going to buy the ETFs. They're not going to be like, oh, let me spin up a wallet and like check out this random project. So that's where I'm like...

But that could change at an instant, as we saw with meme coins. As soon as there's a few projects that do really well, as soon as there's something that triggers... Yeah, go ahead, Scott.

No, I was going to say, you're right. But the problem with meme coins is that's the same money, right? So it's the same washing machine rotation of crypto degens who have been here the whole time. So the fact that meme coins have had a temporary moment, and by the way, retail who bought meme coins, unless they sold perfectly, also has been getting wrecked, right? But anyone who bought meme coins, that's the money that's being taken away from the presale. So the real question to tom's point is where the flow is going to come from i do think we get another fomo cycle right so i think things will there will be things that perform exceptionally well right i'm not being pessimistic on the cycle i think we go up in the fall i think 20 is a guess but i think 2025 looks really really good i think our drawbacks our pullbacks continue to be shallower because the et and such. But the question is, just really with so many tokens,

how do you pick one that's going to… But that's the same argument you can make in every cycle. And I think it's… No, last cycle, everything that launched for five months. Yeah, yeah. But you could have made the same argument though. When the market was dead at a similar time tonight, you could have made the same argument.

Yeah, but there's so many meme coins. And how do you pick a needle in a haystack? Well, that's VC. And then when you say, welcome to VC investing. And then if they did well, you did extremely well. But just going back to the point, and someone made the argument earlier, there's so many tokens that launched in previous cycles. Yes, 99% of them are still dead.

And they could be written off, even though they still exist on CoinMarketCap. So I think it's important to kind of point out that even if there's a lot of tokens, the VC money will always favor new tokens, the new shiny object. Unless people start to shift to more… That's a big game of hot potato, right? Because as investors, especially as these VCs, the larger ones you're looking, you should be, anyone who's invested in any market, an investment should be five to 10 years, not five to 10 minutes. Not yet, but not exactly. Exactly. The discussion we're having will not make sense in the traditional VC world.

In the crypto world, what we'd be looking for is immediately quick to immediate liquidity. I'll never say immediate because you usually invest a couple of months in advance, but relatively quick liquidity within a few weeks or months, generally, let's say within six months. And what we're talking about now is that that liquidity to mitigate your risk isn't there because the risk with crypto is really high. As Scott said, 95% of VC-backed projects fail, 99.5% of the crypto projects fail. So you need that quick liquidity to make sure you don't have like just a plethora of VCs go bust as they did in the last bear market. Right.

And in the past, that quick liquidity for investors generally, even if it was a 10, 15, 20% tranche, they were launching at such high valuations that you were either out with your initial investment or out even wildly in profit if you actually sold at the beginning.

I can tell you I didn't because I was like, I'm not going to be the guy who sells. I'm diamond hands, right? I'm holding 100 tokens down 99%. But it was your money. If it was your investor's money. You'd have a fiduciary responsibility, of course, to get out. But now, listen, if it launches at a 5x or a 3x or a 2x,

which is what a good one is at this point, then you get, you know, 20 to 40% of your money out. And by the time you're, and by the time you get your next invest, if you're selling it to the loss, you maybe totally get your money down. And then more importantly, that is selling pressure every single time there's an unlock, and there's no chance it can go up. That's what I'm saying. Structurally, it just doesn't work. Because every time now, in the last cycle, there were a lot of people actually who deeply believed in these projects and held. Even VCs, private investors, like Multicoin held Solana to $200 and something

and all the way back down to $8, right? I think. And then all the way back up. And a lot of people like myself held 90 of what we got because we thought we were investing in the amazing future nope because of what we saw last time everybody is selling immediately and there's never going to be enough buying pressure if everybody who invested sells every single thing they get the second they invest. It cannot go up. It's structurally almost impossible. Go ahead, Fred.

I was just checking Axie Infinity, how it's doing now for anyone that held from the previous cycle. I was just going to say on Scott's comment and just VC in general, I mean, I don't have the best way to track it, but I can give you one example where some companies are still making big moves behind the scene. Scott brought up Ripple. I invest in XRP and the company Ripple, and they just went on a huge buying spree, buying back their stock for about double or a little bit more than double what it is on the private market right now. So I think a lot of people or a lot of the big companies are

still making moves right now but if you can't see it under the surface then you know you can't see it so guys i just got it's got another interesting update here as well um do you remember big cloud diesel scott yeah i remember it was like the most hyped thing and that dude is going to jail maybe oh shit you saw the news you do fucking know everything how the hell did you look at that piece of news i never thought you'd even notice it so yeah like i get i get kind of my like i do my really quick sweep at like four o'clock in the morning so it's just like casually reading i didn't dig deeply but i saw the you know basically the headline was they had obviously raised a ton of money. I know you were in that crash and see a ton of people.

I was not, I was not in the private, I was not in the private realm, so I didn't make much there. Yeah. Um, I just know that a lot of people deeply believed in it. It was sort of a darling. And I think the claim was that he kind of took 7 million of it and bought cars. He was such a, it was just very surprising. Like he launched, I remember Nadir from 2017 or 16.

He launched base protocol. And I was asked whether to invest back then. I was not investing. And then he raised money. I think it's algorithmic stablecoin. One of the early guys to launch an algorithmic stablecoin. And then he refunded all the VCs because obviously regulation. And then he launched DeSo.

And a lot of the VCs, he raised like 200 million or something. It's a lot of money that he raised. And he put it into Bitcoin and Bitcoin hit all-time highs it was worth

like 400-500 million I can't remember what it was it was about 400 million wasn't it Robert Breedlove

that created his clout to shield BitClout wasn't it BitClout

wasn't it what was I saying again wasn't it Robert Breedlove that burned a lot

of his social clout yeah I don't know all i know is that he's had every time they can have all the top vcs from pantera to winklevoss twins to it was everyone literally all the top vcs huge names hugest like uh personalities everyone yeah so they all invested in big cloud and then that rebranded to diesel He's a very trusted guy and I just saw the token collapsed, it was like $20 and that's down to $9, dropped by 40, 50%. It was even below, it was up down to $7 earlier. And that was after the SEC charged the founder with fraud. So it's nothing to do with BitClout as a platform, no concern there. As far as I read just briefly the first couple of sentences, it was him spending some of that money he's raised on personal expenses, which goes to a question I've always asked.

There's something that always bothered me, Scott, and anyone could answer this. I know we don't have the lawyers now, but all these projects that raise all this money, is there anyone holding them accountable? Are VCs and Tom, maybe you'd be good for that one because you master ventures invested in so many projects. Do VCs work together to hold these projects accountable? Not the ones that failed, but the ones that actually use the money they raise for personal expenses.

Because in the traditional world, that's fraud. In the crypto world, it's seeming like the norm. Yeah. So a lot of these are incorporated in BVI or Panama or Cayman, and it really depends on the local jurisdictions. And it's really important to have contracts with refund clauses if you don't do XYZ or launch by this date or whatever, or you're only using the funds for this. But in reality, to litigate this stuff is just far too expensive for the actual investment you're making. If you're investing like 200K, 500K, whatever it is, you're probably going to try

to spend that in legal, finding someone's Panama lawyer, and then it's probably not going to work out the way you want in court. So unless you invest, I would say seven figures or above, it's really hard to litigate this stuff. And even then, it's no guarantee of an outcome. So it's- Even if VCs worked together for class action lawsuits, that wouldn't work? It would, but it'd have to be worth their time and effort and money and all that or reputation, right? So that's why you don't see it happen very often. At the end of the day, most of this stuff, while it's on paper, it's still really handshake agreements in this industry, unfortunately.

So essentially what you're saying, a project that raised $10 million through a SAFT, and then used $5 million for personal purposes, and $5 million on the business, they pocketed that $5 million, the project failed. They're going to get away with it scot-free? Unfortunately, probably. What's the calculus if you you, what's the calculus of your VC? So you can, you can sue them, but what are you going to get back? And is that worth your time and effort and extra funds to actually recruit that money? And how about authorities or the FCC or other governmental bodies? Yeah.

So if they're, if they're, if they're, you know, exposed to the U S for sure, there's definitely precedent there, but if they're a lot of these are not, so they're either in Panama or BVI or somewhere other offshore entity. I mean, you've seen random European countries, Estonia. So it's important to look through the contract and make sure you know what country and the local laws you're doing business with. But unless you're doing really, really sizable amounts, it's just really tough to litigate this stuff because it's usually just not worth the time and effort. Yeah. Dan? really tough to litigate this stuff because it's usually just not worth the time and effort yeah dan yeah so i um speaking of offshore shady and uh countries i live in singapore and i've lived here for a while um we did some icos so um i got involved in icos um

but the advice we got was like yeah you can't do that with investors on you but what you can do is inflate the um the team salaries so we're going to pay the ceo ten thousand dollars a month we're going to pay everybody that comes on board ten twenty thousand dollars a month that is operational expense so you can hide it away that way so this is like a slow rug right so you get the money in and we're going to pay everybody 20 grand a month out of the money that we've raised and that is a fair price based on the times or whatever it's all nonsense so that is a way of slow rugging it so you don't necessarily write it quickly you just raise the money and then pay from the treasury yourself and all your fellows 20 you know 20 25 grand a month and that's how you drain it and that's how you do

a slow rug um but on that point there's no way against that because it's kind of an arms end agreement with the company and the people so that's the point i want to make about that one um and maybe scott before getting into the markets and and the the other more important topics and maybe do a very quick cam uh david you could get a meme coin recap for maybe two minutes and latest updates in the industry and how the industry is doing. David, you there? Yeah, yeah, I'm here. Yeah, I mean, for meme coins, what everybody's been talking about lately, the whole Nero dog token. And surprisingly, a third one came into the race.

The one on Ethereum just literally shot past both of the ones on Solana. So it looks like those communities have been, you know, condensing, some people selling, moving into that one. Overall, another one that Rand mentioned yesterday, that smoking chicken fish has been pretty interesting. I started paying attention to them and, you know, very, very community centricric putting their own spin on things and having it built and developed in a you know in an interesting and exciting way so that's the for anyone that doesn't know that's the doge for the nero that's doge's owners doge the dog died and they got a new dog and now you're pumped and people are debating the meme coin world which meme coin will win and these are meme coins hitting hundreds of millions market gaps it's

not a laughing stock laughing matter and and carl anything else to add and is the market would you say the market is is is bubbly would you say it's been quiet is it dead like the ico market how meme coins doing seems to have done really well after the trump assassination attempt it was it was temporary i think right now what really what you're seeing is you're kind of seeing an exploration in this space you know it's what's interesting is like when you look at the memes as a macro space, watching where the attention shifts. And I think right now they're searching for a new meta. You're seeing celebrities wave a flag at trying to look like legitimate projects. So, you know, you're seeing, you know, like Scottie Pippen tokenizing basketball and, you know, rappers coming in,

leveraging different things. And so, you know, rappers coming in, leveraging different things. And so, you know, to me, I think from a marketing perspective, from go-to-market strategy and how that can be leveraged into real world projects, it's fascinating to kind of see. Last quick question before going to Scott, is the celebrity meme course still doing well? We saw that Iggy did really well, Tate did well. Jason Derulo went all in as well. Did that whole meta die down now? It is because I think largely the euphoria and the liquidity that was entering the market in the spring is starting to recede a little bit, similar to how we're talking about venture

capital and traditional markets. I think that you're seeing kind of an overall pullback of that retail liquidity flowing the meme coins. And now it's just a shuffling around of liquidity. The multiples aren't as high with the projects. Occasionally, you'll get one, like Ran was talking about smoking chicken fish. I think they're ushering in a new meta. They're calling it cult-fi. So keep an interesting... Keep an eye open for cult-fi. That will be zero in three months, right? We'll do CultFi for like three weeks and then that'll be zero.

I mean, we're talking about smoking chicken fish. 100%. Just being clear here, guys. Scott, can you stop taking credit? I don't think it takes a lot. And I can't give you credit for saying smoking chicken fish is going to go to zero. I don't think anyone that doesn't make you listen we have we have we have uh 4122 people currently listening to this who may have just like oh my god i heard the name of a token i'm gonna buy it

no i don't think that's how audience i don't think they're gonna go look and find smoking chicken fish if those people i don't think they'll be able to find it the people that will just hear that and go yeah i'm about to go on smoking barbecue chicken wing fish and that's it honestly living here in texas living here in texas i think you would have a very large contingent of people and just last a one to ten uh quick meter how how frothy is the meme coin world uh kyle just give us a quick number or david just quick number i'd say we're at six right now, between six and 6.5. I would say higher than that, depending on the circles you're in and the area that you're focusing on. Everybody's looking at the main ones, but all of the small cap traders, Pump Fund and those other platforms, if you don't know what you're doing, you'll get wrecked.

But if you do know what you're doing, there are still people making fortunes day in and day out. And Scott, kind of bringing that back to general market conditions, we haven't broken all-time highs. Just maybe give a quick recap on that and dig into your world, the macro world. I mean, I think right now, this is the highly predictable cycle of sideways chop that nobody wants to talk about anymore of the summer doldrums and you know things are going to improve it's likely to happen in september october that's what's happened uh every other cycle doesn't mean it'll happen this time um but if you kind of zoom out and take a look at the price of bitcoin you know in the 66 67 000,000 region. And I've said this here before, I mean, we've had arguably the greatest pivot in headwinds to tailwinds in the history of any market, right? Politically, we were under

attack by the government, Trump completely pivoted, spoke at a Bitcoin conference. Now, the Harris administration, candidacy, I should say, the Biden administration and Harris looking to, quote unquote, reset with the crypto industry. We have real hope of decent regulation, security. You know, we have 10 coins yesterday being basically unnamed potential unregistered securities in the Binance case. Everything going for us. And I think price is literally at the same or lower than when all of this started happening in April when Trump pivoted. So I will say that there is no single piece of news that can possibly affect this market in either direction right now,

because this part of the cycle is so strong. And so I think it's just a matter of going outside, touching grass and waiting. And I do think all of these tailwind of going outside, touching grass and waiting. And I do think all of these tailwinds catch up, right? I mean, we have potentially liquidity changing with a Fed pivot. Some would say that's good. Some would say that's bad. We have an election cycle coming up. We have the halving cycle that usually ramps up six months after the halving.

Everything, it's almost scary how bullish you should be fundamentally right now and how little price has been impacted so far. Jonathan? Yeah, as an old school technical analyst, the efficient market hypothesis is something that we just look at and go, eh, like behavioral investing, behavioral analysis in investing shows that news, while it can cause small gyrations, has never been responsible for the ending or the beginning of a trend. Second, I hold the space accountable for spamming the inbox on stock goods with people asking to add the SCF ticker. And third, going into the macro side of things as we get into August. August, as I'm writing this for the light paper today, it is the suck of suck months. It rated to the other months of the year is how it performs when it ends bullishly. It's third to last. As far as how it performs when you have months to the downside,

it is the fifth worst. And average overall, August's average performance overall compared to all the other months over the last 11 years, it is the second to worst. Its average performance is negative 0.09%. September is the worst at negative 5.16% per month on average. Robert Leonardus Yeah, just to add some power to that, I just retweeted a chart from Goldman Sachs. It's the median monthly flows by month for mutual funds and ETFs. And August is by far the worst of every month. It is grossly net negative and

the worst month for flows. And again, price is set at the margin via flows. It's the summer doldrums of trading. If anybody's ever done trade desks or prop shops, it's just the people have families vacations it's nice outside i mean yeah yeah but smoked pork belly fish balls poised to fly fred go ahead

yeah i agree with your take scott on the macro i would say, I think one of the reasons or a reason why we might not be getting the lift off with all those great factors is when you dig deep a little bit, we're still in that same holding pattern. Like, you know, you mentioned with the good news that it looks like the SEC is going to drop off going for those 10 tokens of securities. I did a little, you know, deep diving on that filing. And, you know, the SEC is not saying they're not securities. They're just giving up making that claim, which is still good, but it's, you know, still more of the same. We're not going to really do anything substantive. And they're also not telling the Binance lawyers that it looks like they're going to try and add

more claims to sue them with. It's all about amending their complaint with all their claims they're doing against Binance. So, you know, there was allegations of how they waited till 1159 at night to give them a new filing and whatnot. So I think the market is like, well, the SEC is still playing games. We still don't have answers from them. We're not as scared as we used to be. But, you know, there's not any definitive good news. So so it's just like you said we're still in that holding pattern i'll take any time the sec even remotely backs off that i can create the narrative that they took an l as an opportunity to say that they took an l so i'm saying that the sec took an l

i'll take the uh anyone who wants to take the counter side of the argument I'm totally happy to do that so Mario should we move on to the I mean we've talked a lot about Trump but we kind of have a number here on to what he's raised I think 21 million at the conference alone for a single fundraiser and then 25 million I think in aggregate from the crypto

industry anyone here surprised think that number is crazy think it's low Joe when we talk about it we thought it would be higher. I think it was going to be much higher. But at the same time, you know, you think about the market and, you know, honestly, I was a little, I was a little taken aback by the speech. You know, I thought it was bullish. You know, at the same time, though, you know, know for me if he came out there and really sounded like he understood the technology and understood the industry i think he would have gotten a lot better reception i really do like when he came out and he was like you know we're

gonna fire gary gensler and then like the reaction that he had like wait that's a good surprise he's like yeah he's like oh i'm gonna say that again um and then at the end he was kind of like hey like you guys have kind of you know go have fun with your coins you know and that was the worst for me it was like all the other things it didn't seem like it was a your bitcoin game all the other things you're playing with or something like that yeah yeah just kind of made me feel he didn't know it was almost like you know vivek and other people were just kind of like hey man like you just need to win these votes which is fine and like we'll take it if it materializes but it's still just campaign promises and and that's why we're ranging yeah then right like if he came out and actually said

you know i understand it here's how it's going to work here's what i'm going to do i'm the favorite right like you could have priced something in there but i think it's just kind of like we don't know't know yet. And that's why I think, you know, I'm kind of like, I think we're stuck at 66, like forever at this point. But that also makes me feel a little bullish, because I think we're stuck at 66 forever. And does anyone here think that the reset from the Harris campaign is genuine or purely political as well. So Joe, I agree with you that Trump, it's purely political, but that's what I'll give you. So I think he pivoted because he saw real interest here from an audience. He saw an opportunity to take votes. But to be fair, he's a 78-year-old guy. How many 78-year-old guys who have heard of Bitcoin three months later are talking about the white paper and

digging deeply into it? And I think Trump is going to be Trump in the way that he speaks about almost everything. The kicker to the speech, if he follows through to me, was that if he wins, he will on day one appoint a council of industry representatives to make sure that regulation and legislation is crafted by people who believe in the industry and not those who are against it. And so that couldn't be more antithetical to Elizabeth Warren effectively being in control of crypto policy from this administration. So like, I think you're 100% right. I just don't think he needs to get it. He just needs to believe that it's politically popular and keep pushing as a result. And that I think that's enough, right? Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, let's take the W, right? Like, it's a huge W at the end of the day, him at least coming out there and acknowledging the industry at that level.

I mean, it was a coming out party for the community. He used the word crypto a lot. He didn't just use Bitcoin. And I think that conference also has kind of softened a little bit to kind of accept more folks. It's not Bitcoin only, where a couple of years ago, they had people on stage talking about how toxic maximalism is a positive thing, right? So I think it's really opened up a lot, and it was more inviting, and it was an overall just very happy and bullish conference. I think it was probably the most fun conference I've been to

in a long time. I'm sorry, I missed you. It's always a... Yeah, it's all right. I think it happened at the right time. Like the doldrums we're just all always a, yeah, it's all right. I think it, it, uh, it happened at the right time. Like the doldrums were just all talking about it. It's like,

you know, I think everyone was like, Hey, like, you know, we're at 66 forever. So let's just go have some fun and have a couple of drinks. Yeah.

I agree with that. Back to Harris, Tom, I think you raised your hand. Tom, Tom Dunleavy, Bueller. Hey, sorry, I just hopped in my car.

Can you hear me? Yeah, it's all right, but not great. Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say, I'm not 100% sure Trump actually has the power to release the SEC share. There's been like interesting conversations around that, but... Yeah, we can't hear you. I'm pretty, i've got low tolerance

for for bad audio by the way scott what's the what's the date now for the projects right for the he's in it for the cash um and he understands like this is i've just removed it from stage it'll take time for the voice to finish speaking okay now there you go i love just kicking people off the stage because they just don't know it he's probably still speaking right now in the court by the way just a very basic question obviously just pretty bored with the market movement just a quick question scott um when do you expect the the bull market to kick off if you look at um how the market's been performing so far and history september october september october so i'll base my entire and and your your what do you think meme coins will do what do you think

out coins will do and what do you think vc funded coins will do? What do you think OutCoins will do? And what do you think VC-funded coins will do in September, October, these three? And do you think NFTs should be even talked about at all or should be forgotten forever? Because my gut instinct is to say forgotten forever, I can tell you that I'm looking at NFTs to counter trade myself. I think that I said three years ago that if I said not if, I said when. Actually, on a space is actually two years ago or something. Bored Apes where I think the floor was $300,000. And I said, when Bored Apes hit $25,000, I will buy one. And I think they're at like 29 or 30 right now. So maybe just in principle,

I would buy an ape if they actually go down. I thought about it the other day. I think at one point they were 27 and I was like, I'm sticking to my gun. So I'm sure they'll drop to 25,400 and then go up to a million dollars and I'll miss it because that's how trading works. But yeah, I would be,

I would consider buying like a punk or maybe an ape. I think punk's better, you know, at these exceptional lows because i think that there will be a lot of uh there will be another cycle i don't think we see another cycle of new pfp projects going crazy but i think some blue chips from last time uh could could have some value okay that's the end of the day you're just trying to be okay and and then in terms of out coins meme coins, VC-backed coins that

are just launching now? I think it's going to... I'm just going on past cycles, so these are wild guesses, right? Guys, don't take any information from this. I would say that 2025, if the pre-sales and VC coins are going to have

another big run, I think 2025, first six months of 2025 because i think that if we do start to see parabolic price movement in the fall it'll probably be from bitcoin and then ethereum and solana and such first um you know that's when we start talking about you know bitcoin 80s 90s like 100 and then you'll need sort of bitcoin to cool off for the degenerates to get interested in the other things. And I think that can take a bit of time. Memes, dude, I have no feeling for. I think that's just going to come in like bubbly waves, but never sustained. It'll be like a two-month period here, a two-month period there,

but they all go to zero eventually, except for five or 10 that maybe capture the zeitgeist. And then as we've talked about, actually build something and try not to be memes okay and then the last two asset classes existing altcoins and then uh icos i think most of the existing altcoins depending on what they are never reach their all-time highs certainly against bitcoin again. But they will have big moves. But like, you know, if you're down 99%, there's a real big opportunity to get in and make a 10x and never come close to an all-time high, right? But I think that with the nature of the way this asset class is being talked about

and what's happening, 99% of people should just dollar cost average into Bitcoin and they'll do better than anywhere else. They may not catch the one huge thousand X that happens, but you're probably not going to catch that or trade it well anyways. I think buying Bitcoin in general right now with the ETFs and the focus on that that's going to come from governments and central banks is the easiest trade that's ever existed, at 66 000 long term nice um all right i'm just looking at i'm just looking at some some data as well and by the way it's something interesting i know you like that news scott i was just looking at biden kamala harris polling which i know is very important to you and they're pretty much seems to be a very very tight race

based on the polls yeah so i don't even think you need polls right i you know i think polls are stupid but i think it's very obvious that there's like a rejuvenation of the democratic side by just not having bottom right it's like dead body versus live body there's obviously going to be a bump let me look at polymarket what the betting is like craig yeah i would love to get your thoughts let me see are they still vetting it good i think it's important can i say something about polymarket really quick i think it's the best gauge that we have to on one hand because uh it's the sharps right i mean it's people who are actually spending their money to bet on the outcome of the election which is a lot more impactful than like a dude on the street who might or may not tell you the truth in a poll about what you're uh voting for but the flip side of that is this is

an american election and polymark is not even available in the united states so it's a bunch of foreigners betting on the united states election and and i, anyone who's savvy enough to use crypto, to use polymarket, like, which is not that easy, like with Polygon and bridging and stuff, are likely crypto natives who, by that nature, are likely right-leaning and willing to put their money there. So I don't put that much faith in it. True, true, true. I agree. I just do want to point out that there is the efficient market hypothesis as well, where you just get a couple of big VCs that know how to use the platform and they'll kind of fill the gap. I see that as an arbitrage opportunity. So I think polymarket definitely tells you who's winning, but not by what margin. Is that fair? Like will become more efficient. VCs will close that gap or anyone with a lot of money will start closing that gap. Some US-based VCs.

I agree with that. This is very early. Yeah, the margin of difference, by the way, is a lot smaller. So Trump is at 60% and Kamala is at 38%. And Michelle Obama is at 1%. Oh, wow. Wasn't Trump at like – last last night look trump was over 72 percent or something that's a pretty big show michelle obama it is a big swing yeah that's

what i'm telling you michelle obama is above rfk michelle obama is at one percent and rfk is at below one percent but deeply hurts my heart yeah but yeah so that's just some polymarket there a bit of a – I know Craig had had his hand up and we called him and then I didn't give him the opportunity. Yeah, yeah, Craig, go ahead. I think you had a hand up. I think when you were talking about the apes and punks and the fact that apes are at an impressive 80K plus floor, Scott. That's probably something I should probably say to Ryan.

But yeah, go ahead, Craig. 80K floor is 30. I don't know about punks. Yeah, go ahead. It's 30. I don't know about punks. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, no, it was funny, Scott, because the other day I was looking at mutinates that are around, I think, 1.8 ETH. And I was like, oh, I remember then these are much higher. And that's sort of in my financial range. I'm like, I need to pick up one of these.

So I think NFTs right now, as we know, they're in hibernation and the meta hasn't moved there yet. But I think this is the accumulation phase for me personally. And I'm collecting generative art, digital art, and then different PFPs that really were relevant or the blue chip or right below the blue chip. So those are the things that I'm looking at now. And then on the way of the meta right now

with around meme coins, I'll take an example like Land Wolf on Ethereum, how that community is growing and building and evolving. If they can stay sustainable, less of price, because you're right, tokenomics doesn't really mean anything with a meme coin. It's can you create a legend when it goes into hibernation where people are like, oh, yeah, Pepe. Pepe comes out and now, you know, it was moving again. So I'm really curious to see what meme coins, when things settle down and hibernation happens, which ones are, you know, is this a memeable to being memorable, which ones will actually have relevance long I do want to talk about the election a bit in reference to crypto. The polls are useless.

They're really useless. There's no question there's been a bounce, as Scott put it. The person who wasn't there, Biden, is not running. And so there's a bounce. I mean, you couldn't vote for somebody who's basically one step away from God. You know, I'm not trying to put him down or anything, but from a nursing home, possibly in the next few years during that four year term that they were trying to install him. And let's let's let's be honest here that the Americans on the Democratic side, the primary voters never voted for Kamala Harris. Sure, you could say they voted for her

within a ticket. But I mean, this is a coronation. I think she made a huge mistake by not attending that crypto conference. That was a real mistake. And I think that Trump really, and we know he really didn't say that much because we we know rfk was much more explicit but the idea alone that we are going to have a president that let's call it even for the for the purposes of of just winning an election maybe the changes uh of the government uh making a reserve making a larger portion of our reserves uh you know, crypto. I don't think it's that big of a deal. The fact is, it's still a dollar denominated asset. So it's not really a threat to the US dollar. I agree with what Trump said. I don't know if he understands it

fully. But I agree with what he said that crypto is not necessarily a threat to the dollar. It's a threat to the reckless spending and money printing that we have had since the GFC. In my opinion, I agree with everything that I have heard here in the first few minutes. Scott, you're spot on. I think, and the gentleman that just spoke right before, I agree completely that we're in an accumulation phase. And I know Michael Lee, the strategist, former strategist, JP Morgan, has been talking about 100,000. I think it's only a matter of time because we all know that the Fed is going to come back at some point and their next move is lowering rates. I mean, we woke up this day, we were seeing another meltdown in semis in the last really three weeks, which has been pretty large in the most powerful sector

of the economy. And all of a sudden today, we wake up and NVIDIA is up $10 a few hours before the Fed reports what they're going to do with interest rates. Maybe somebody heard something, there is a leak. I don't know. But out of the blue, we don't have a market. We have assets that react to liquidity that the Fed has been pumping in at unprecedented levels for 15 years. So I think crypto has bottomed. I think from a logical standpoint, you'd have to be a little disappointed with ETH, the way it's acted with this ETF. It certainly hasn't done what bitcoin did and and i'll take the other side of that bitcoin went down over 20 percent bitcoin went down over 20 after the launch and it actually even with all of the ep selling has barely budged i would say that eth is wildly outperforming the first few weeks of bitcoin

if you look at it which i'm not saying it should or should not, I'm saying factually, Bitcoin went down 20% after the ETFs, like for sustained selling for three to four weeks, that has not happened with ETH. And ETH is selling off billions at a time, which is a larger portion. That means there's actually some real demand for this that we're not giving credit for so let's let's move on from from this discussion scott um because i've been looking at blue whale who's the partner for today and i'm pretty impressed by the founder i'm pretty impressed by the team and what they're building and i don't mean that generically like the founders is is forbes 30 under 30 my hand i don't know how to hand sorry i don't like that anymore i know it could be gamed but uh ink 30 under 30 okay berkeley uh you't know. Han, sorry. I don't like that anymore. I know it could be gamed.

But Inc 30 under 30. Okay, Berkeley. You're from Berkeley. You're from Y Combinator. I think these are more impressive. These should be before Forbes 30 under 30, Inc 30 under 30, Al Jazeera 30 under 30, et cetera. But it was looking at your background, looking at your investors, looking at your CTO as well, Adam, who's 40 under 40. Is that Forbes as well, 40 under 40? You guys, I don't know what you're doing to get onto the 30 under who's 40 under 40. He's at Forbes as well, 40 under 40.

You guys, I don't know what you're doing to get onto the 30 under 30, 40 under 40. But he's from Stanford, and he's from Math Labs as well. And look at some of your investors, which include Haseeb, which is Scott's friend and a regular on the show as well, along with a few others. Animoca, Dragonfly. Okay, that's Haseeb's company, VC. You got Jack McCauley from Oculus as well along with a few others animal card dragonfly. Okay, this is That's a Ceebs company VC. You got Jack McCauley from oculus as well gun. I got SPI. It's pretty impressive a packed Cap table a pretty solid team. Hi, I think you're with us on stage you from the blue whale to a honey there Hi, how are you? I'm here. Thanks for having me Pleasure is ours man. Yeah I was looking at Blue Whale.

Before getting into what Blue Whale is and what's exciting about it, can you just tell me more about the discussion we were having earlier? We had a few people on stage saying there's not too many exciting projects launching right now, and there isn't too much money flying around. When did you finish your raise? How's the sentiment in that VC world right now? Because I feel like quality projects are getting a lot of love relative to the bear market where even quality projects were being ignored. So I was already thinking about it because I got myself in the right meeting here. But on our end, it's actually going well. Today, we got more investors coming

in into the cap table. Seems like there's enough demand in the market. Haven't seen liquidity drawing up that much. I do see a lot of VCs now going on vacation. That's a different problem. But I would say there's still quite an amount of interest from both communities and individual VCs investing in long-term projects. And that's how we see ourselves. And just kind of where are you based, by the way? I'm right now in Singapore, but I'm flying back and forth between San Francisco. I was in the bay area for the last 12 years um you know after i graduated started working in the bay area uh you know

south bay and um probably for 12 15 years and then started moving out towards asia um during the covid uh time frame nice man all right let into Blue Whale. I think people care more about Blue Whale than anything else we've been discussing so far. So how would you explain, so the way that the team's explained to me is like, as I said, like, hey, what's a one-liner? What they said,

it says on your Twitter as well, it's Web3's intelligence layer. And what you're saying on Twitter, turn your data into your most valuable asset. Can you expand more what Blue Whale does? For sure. And I can also step back a little bit and give background. So me and my co-founder, this is our 10 years anniversary.

We have been working together for the last two companies. And we have been working and building AI companies in the Web2 space, primarily building out infrastructure for large enterprises serving them with personalization which means ai that understands how people make decisions how to serve them with the right offerings and how to profile them what we didn't understand when back in the days was that we were only serving the top three percent in the world the guys that have hundreds of millions of users so we made an assumption that you know in future, users are going to be sitting on chain. We will have a lot of data on blockchains, you know, contextualizing this person. So why shouldn't we build the same intelligence layer that we used to build for the big guys on the blockchain, but then power the 97% of the world

with such intelligence? And that's what Blue Whale does. Okay, to get to it further, that's how you came to the idea. But for the average Joe, what is Blue Whale as a solution? For sure. So what we want to achieve is that we turn individuals with their wallets into money making machines, because AI rewards them based on demand, based on their data, based on, you know based on the way they are being targeted or understood by enterprises. On the other side of the platform, we work with 3,000-plus enterprises nowadays to help them understand their user base, understand how to reach them, how to send them offerings, and spend their marketing in a smart way. That's kind of what what blue world is okay so

essentially got two two two sides to this and i remember i had a similar company i need to remember names that came on the show the killer whales show the the tv shark tank show that that we host in la and um it'll be coming out in a couple of months so it's not live now and it was at one project that's probably the only fuck i'll say it now is there was only two projects I swam on the show on. I was like the judge that never swam because I was not that impressed with the project. But that was one of the two that I swam because I love the concept, which makes a lot of sense. So essentially, you allow users to make money on their data as number one. I'm going to bring up David and others.

Anyone that wants to ask questions, just request. I'll bring you up, Kyle, as well. But you allow users to monetize their data, and then you also allow companies to leverage that data. So essentially, you're the layer that allows data to be tokenized so that value could

accrue with the individual that owns that data, and then it just allows for the company to buy that data and leverage it accordingly. Is that a way to oversimplify it? Yeah, or the way I would explain it to simplify it is like we have a smart Tinder that matches enterprises with individuals. So they can make love.

I'm just kidding. Okay. No, I enjoy it. I love it. All right, so cool. So please explain how I'm on Tinder right now. I swipe right. So I choose a company that I want to make love to.

So I'm like, hey, this company I'm fine with. They can I swipe right. So I choose a company that I want to make love to. So I'm like, hey, this company I'm fine with. They can use my data. What happens next? So let's say my data is... So when you say data, can I decide what data they use or that specific data?

How does it work? I'm trying to imagine if I'm a user right now. 100%. So you own your data on the blockchain anyway. So we make sure that data belongs to you.

And by data, can you... Let me dig into a layer further. Let's really understand that. data belongs to you and by data can you let me dig into a layer further let me let's really understand that so when you say on your data what data because people don't understand how much data there is about us online i was talking to my to my partner just now to my girlfriend a few hours ago and i said to her i said there's there's very little the privacy is dead so she was she always guesses what i'm about to say we think alike and i was i was pretty i was pretty um uh triggered by that i'm like for fuck's sake like i need privacy is dead because soon they can't be able to read what's in our

mind everything's already online um as gonna know more about us and we know about ourselves we question life and then i will give us answers about our own life but um um and we seem to be moving there a lot quicker can you kind of give us an idea of what what is that data that you guys are tokenizing and offering to companies how give us practical examples right now history of, transactions on chain, purchases we've made. Yeah. So we allow you to combine your Web2 and Web3 digital footprint into the Bluewell profile. And to share it and opt in for enterprises that want to have access to it in order to send you better offerings, send you outreach messages, reach you with different tokens or rewards that they want to provide to you because you fall under their

audience that they want to target. Can I choose what data? So if I want, for example, I want Scott's company to not know that I went to Pornhub. Can I choose to tick what data they can see? I know what you're doing. Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, like, the amount of data that you're releasing or aggregating into the Bluewell profile is up to you. Like, if you're adding your Twitter profile,

if you're adding your Facebook profile, if you're adding your Pornhub profile, like, it's really up to you how much you want to add it. And then when they use the data. So yeah, go ahead. Sorry, Kyle, go ahead. Yeah, so I think one thing that's interesting,

I'm looking at you guys is like, you know, like talking about leveraging data. You know, you guys partnered with one of those like Tapper style communities on Ton. Do you guys see that as, you know, how fast the adoption into these games is kind of a way for you to mass aggregate data?

What was the reasoning for partnering with those guys? Yes, totally. I think in terms of gaming, you have just way more transactions per minute, much more engagement, much more uptime. So gaming was a vertical that naturally came to us. We actually didn't start in there. We started with protocols and DeFi platforms because they were trying to identify whales on chain,

which is a very black and white, easy use case. But then the games really drove the data aggregation that made the blue profile much more valuable over time versus on DeFi platforms, you're transacting maybe once a month or once every three months so you guys look at gaming kind of like that flash point for you guys like across like not just not just a ton or is there a special interest in ton because of just the sheer volume like we have we don't even see this in traditional gaming um or have you guys partnered with gaming across multiple chains

we actually partner with gaming across multiple chains um and also like games where they are building their own ecosystem their own chains um which is also very interesting to us because we think about ai and user intelligence or consumer intelligence from a transferable knowledge perspective that means like if you're training your AI on Ethereum, right, like 500 million plus wallets, you have seen what those guys are up to. Your AI, when he goes to, let's say, we go to a different chain, Sui, which might have not as much transactions, the same intelligence still exists, right? Memory doesn't fade just because you are now moving across chains and let me it says you

talked about gaming as well do you do you focus a lot on gaming because i think this is where where data is it's got a lot of potential and by the way dan i'll let you jump in as well right after us sorry didn't see your hand go ahead han yes so in the beginning like we um we saw gaming as one of the verticals that was exciting. But in the last, I would say the last three months, we had more than 3,000 enterprise accounts being created on our platform. And 80% of that is gaming. And so either, you know, either, right?

So because we are like a premium model, right? Either the gamers, the gaming guys don't have enough money to pay for Nansen. And that's why they're coming to us first. Or smaller projects can just ramp up much faster on our platform, get much more insight without building their own data teams internally. And then also no longer spending the amount of mass that they need to dump into the data commodity space, which I see, you know, like what's really hard in the last bull run. But I think data is really becoming commodity and analytics as well as becoming

commodity. And we don't really think about charging for that. We think about monetizing on the insights part of things and the social and connection part of things. Dan? Yeah, so I used

to work at Binance again before that in Rocket, Aggie, this kind of stuff, Groupon, you know, this kind of thing. Look, I live in Singapore, you live in Singapore too, I speak German fluently. Why don't we connect a little bit because I want to learn a little bit more about that, what you're doing. That'd be amazing. That's nice. That's a pretty cool team. Send me a message.

I'm looking up. Let's have a meeting in real life. That'd be great. If that was okay. Of course. Happy to. It is Tinder Mario. Great.

Yeah. So there we go. There we go. Yeah. One, a mutual friend of me, Scott. Also, she wants to meet you. Hit me up. I'll connect you to her. She was just listening to the go. Han, a mutual friend of me, Scott, also, she wants to meet you.

Hit me up. I'll connect you to her. She was just listening to the space. Like, hey, Mario, I want to connect with Han. So hit me up and we'll hook you guys up. She swiped right. Just going back to the Tinder. So I was going through your website.

You're focusing heavily on wallets right now. Are you just focusing at the moment on Web3 data first because that's an untapped market? So I think focusing on Web3 gives us the way where AI can reward you financially. And that's where we wanted to go with the financial aspect that your data should be rewarded for, your profile, your presence your your digital status should generate you more revenue because you have more status that's our thinking behind going after web 3 first but we are aggregating a lot of web 2 data which is like you know your Gmail accounts your your Facebook accounts your Twitter accounts that people are opting in for and kind of adding into their blue world profile we think that's where most of the rich information comes from when it comes to, you know, lifestyle contextualization of like how you behave on a daily basis versus like, you know, on the Web3 side, we have more like financial transactions.

Those are, you know, like a little bit different and a very narrow part of your day-to-day life. By the way, it's such a small world. I see that Amar from Revolving Games left a testimony for you. He's been on the show a few times. We're invested in Revolving Games. He says, Bluewell has been a true game changer for us in understanding our on-chain user base. Thanks to their AI-powered tech and the insights they have provided, we were able to adjust our campaign more effectively,

leading to visible improvements in our results. Has Amar received any tokens as an advisor before writing this testimonial? I asked that question. This is a real testimonial. I believe it. I believe it. Here we go. So you've got Phil from PVP as well. I believe it. I believe it. Here we go. Cool.

So you got Phil from PVP as well. But just going back to your cap table and your token, we don't have much time. So I want to ask those questions that I always love to ask is, first, when is your token listing? What exchanges, launchpans do you have lined up? And then I'll ask about your VCs as well. For sure. So token listing is planned for Q4 right

now. I agree with the town hall. Current sentiment in the market is not as good. A lot of the projects that are launching now are collapsing. It's very hard for them to work their way back because there's a lot of new shiny stuff coming out. For us, what we are going to do in Q3 is going to do a note sale. I believe in the mechanics of a node sale because it really drives a different investment behavior and community into your token holdings and bring a different community into your entire platform. And also with the node sale, we're going to be decentralizing the voting power and governance where our AI is going to go. Because I have enough that only Sam Altman can decide where AI goes.

I would like the people to decide and become more like a DAO structure that way. And then for the exchanges, we are currently talking to the top three exchanges. My biggest favorite is Coinbase. And so we are currently putting everything in there to make that happen. And of course, there's the OKEx and Binance of the world that we are currently working towards as well. And as I said, in terms of numbers, we are getting very close to the numbers that they want to see. Enterprise accounts, we just surpassed 3,000 within the last six months. We crossed 800,000 individual users that claim their Blue Whale profile. And we believe through the node sale where actually we make it more consumer friendly, where you can operate the

node through your mobile app. We have a Blue Whale app, by the way, will actually be a really good user acquisition channel for us. Now, congratulations. And going back to your cap table, I know we're over time, but last question, you just got some really impressive investors here, a lot of people that we trust and a lot of people I'm friends with. Who was the lead investor? How much did you guys raise and what valuation?

When was the last round? For sure. So we raised two rounds. One was in pre-seed, mostly just angels such as Charles, founder of Guitar Hero, Jack McCauley. Hoskinson? Founder of Oculus. No, no, Guitar Hero, also in the game. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then Hasib from Dragonfly Capital. When did Hasib come in? Really, really early? When did he invest?

Yeah, very, very early. I know Hasib from know, that's how we met for the first time. We got both stuck in Taiwan. And we hung out. That's painful uh but glad we got it done um was led by sbi um and uh you know uh participation from like animoco japan uh kadano um uh momentum six next gen and um primal capital and all those guys um yeah appreciate it man look i've just been really impressed by you guys are building i'm really impressed by you here can you tell me the last valuation of your last round? You mean like the KOL round or the last year round? The KOL round. KOL round was, latest round, the KOL round was 60 mil. And we are targeting to enter the market around like 70, 80. How many users

do you guys have? We are approaching a mil. Yeah, so Scott, whether you or someone else says, oh, your projects are too overvalued, they're raising too big market cap, look for that needle in the haystack. I don't think you'll see when it hits you in the face. Yeah.

There will be winners. yeah um there will be winners yeah there will be winners um just gonna be hard to pick that's why we uh highlight these and have these interviews so we could actually learn what they might be 100 you're gonna miss out on every single good one scott and when you tell me fuck missed out, I'll be playing the recording of this particular space. If I do them all, you know, I'll catch the good one and the other 99 that I ride to zero will compensate me to the downside. Guys, it's a pleasure to speak to you, man. I'll let you connect

to Dan Clark on stage and anyone else in the audience who wants to connect to you, they can hit you up or message you from the title. You can see Bluewell AI, follow them. They're're a pretty sick community a very talented team and i'm you know vouching for them more than i usually do for projects a solid cap table really really good project i'm glad to be on that cap table as well to be part of your journey if i can be involved in any more i'd be happy to now that we had that discussion and i've dug into it and you know i'm happy to be even more involved that's how excited I am so congratulations man

really appreciate it and we'll see you all tomorrow as always thanks a lot everyone bye bye bye bye thanks for having me bye bye see you

have a good one