The Wolf Of All Streets - What crypto needs to entice the big boys with Catherine Coley, CEO of Binance.US

Episode Date: February 18, 2021

Almost 100 episodes ago, Binance.US CEO Catherine Coley was the first guest on the Wolf Of All Streets Podcast. Since her first appearance, the world was hit with Covid and the potential for an economic recession like no other, which accelerated the adoption of digital assets. Stepping into 2021, Binance.US has seen more trading volume in January than the entirety of 2020. Retail is coming, and in this episode, Coley opens up about the work being done behind the scenes to allow unprecedented amounts of fiat into the world of cryptocurrencies. According to Coley, Bitcoin’s 24/7 global accessibility and diverse functionality is its most advanced and novel aspect, driving the world to a financial revolution. In this episode, Melker and Coley discuss a range of topics including: Binance.US expanding to all 50 states Bitcoin as a post-apocalyptic resource Regulatory delays from Covid Fast pace black swan events An influx of Dogecoin traders Pirate money Stimulus checks and disposable income Trade cost analysis Women in crypto TikTok traders A new generation of traders Tesla’s growing balance sheet Wall Street Bets Preparing for whales ---- MAKERSPLACE MakersPlace is the go-to premium marketplace for purchasing rare digital artworks from the world’s top creators (Ie. José Delbo, Trevor Jones, Pak, SSX3LAU, Shu Lea Cheang). New artworks are dropped twice a week, where they typically sell out within seconds of release and have been reselling several months later, upwards of 10x. Subscribe for exclusive drop notifications at https://makersplace.com/thewolf ---- MATCHA Matcha is the easiest way to trade in DeFi. Matcha enables traders to seamlessly swap tokens using 20+ aggregated liquidity sources that deliver better prices than going to a centralized exchange or Uniswap. Connect your wallet and start today at matcha.xyz/wolf ---- BITCASINO This episode was brought to you by Bitcasino. The worlds leading Bitcoin-led online casino and crypto-centric gaming destination. Wager your way into a world of opportunity, with the ultimate in Fun, Fast and Fair gameplay, all day, every day!  Deposit, wager, and withdraw in real-time with a host of top cryptocurrencies, including Bitcoin (BTC), Ethereum (ETH), LiteCoin (LTC), Tether (USDT), TRON (TRX), Ripple (XRP), and more!  Use the promo link https://Bitcasino.io/Scott, to unlock your share of awesome rewards in the Valentine’s Day Big Red Heart Promotion. ---- Join the Wolf Den newsletter: ►►https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen/members ---- If you enjoyed this conversation, share it with your colleagues & friends, rate, review, and subscribe. This podcast is presented by Blockworks. For exclusive content and events that provide insights into the crypto and blockchain space, visit them at: https://www.blockworks.co

What is up, everybody? I'm Scott Melker, and this is the Wolf of All Streets podcast. Today's guest was the first person ever on this podcast almost 100 episodes ago, and I'm pumped to have her back on the show. At a young age, Catherine Coley fell in love with trading and Forex and found herself fitting into one of the most niche tech sectors in the world. Her story brought her from Hong Kong to London and ultimately San Francisco, where she combined her traditional FX background with her passion for cryptocurrencies. She's now the CEO of Binance US, a job that has her sitting squarely in the spotlight 24-7, 365. It's my intention this episode to learn more about what it's like to be the CEO of Binance US and how

close crypto is to finally achieving mass adoption. Catherine Coley, thank you so much for coming on again. I am so pumped. I remember that first episode like it was yesterday. I was shaking like a tree. We didn't have video. Yeah, it was definitely, it was, you made it very easy on me, I should say.

So I should be thanking you really for that. Well, you've gone in great places since, so I'm pretty pumped to see Wolf of Wall Street where it is now. Thank you very much. So once again, you're listening to the Wolf of Wall Street podcast, which air now. Thank you very much. So once again, you're listening to the Wolf of Wall Street's podcast, which airs twice a week. We talk to your favorite personalities from the worlds of Bitcoin, finance, trading, art,

music, sports, and politics. This podcast is powered by BlockWorks, the fastest growing media company in the digital asset space. BlockWorks has 20 Bitcoin and crypto podcasts. I'm excited to be part of the network. Visit blockworks.co for access to the highest quality information in the space. If you like the podcast, follow me on Twitter, check out my website, join my newsletter. You can do both those things at thewolfofallstreets.io. And now that we're done with that. So Catherine, you know, the joke was always at the beginning when Florida, and I

remember that someone was bugging you every day on Twitter saying when Connecticut. So, you know, catching up, it seems that you only have about seven states left. So first, I guess, when Connecticut? And when can users in every state expect full operation? Yeah, exactly. We launched in the day that you were able to come and join on Florida. And today, we launched a new state in Washington state. So we've moved on to our 43rd state in the 43rd day of 2021. And at this pace, maybe there'll be more news tomorrow. But no, I think we're on a good pace

for getting as many states as we can in 2021. My goal is all 50. So let's do it. Well, what are the holdups at this point? I mean, when you and I talked probably a year ago, obviously it was a very different environment, a very different view of crypto. I was still in the office.

Yeah. That was how different it was. Yeah, we were fully pre-COVID at that point. I remember you actually were on your way to the office and like crashed on your scooter or something on the way there. I did, right? Yeah. But I haven't ridden a scooter in, gosh, 10, 11 months. Well, I guess 12. But we were in such

a different world. And so just the sheer amount of disruption that caused the rest of the world and all of the businesses around us to undergo this new work-from-home environment, many of the bank regulations took a big delay. They had to move from a very much office oriented environment, a very much person to person meeting situation and move into looking at a stack of papers from their house. So I think we're going to see the bank regulators play catch up from a year of disruption and get through some great businesses that need to be opening up in folks' states. So I'm pretty optimistic that we're all getting a little used to this normal and people are making the most ways to be efficient. And bank regulators, we've already seen great success with some of our other states getting in.

So having 43 states in the first two months already, I think that's a great momentum headed forward for 2021. Yeah, it seemed that would just set such an obvious precedent for the ones that are remaining. I mean, well, we've seen some states like pick up and feel competitive, like they realized other states were doing it. They're like, whoa, whoa, like this is absolutely great. We had a fantastic presentation with about, I think it's like 65 North Carolina business owners. And they were all in their heads, just like thinking about how much business this was going to be bringing to North Carolina, how much like prosperity that was going to be happening in their state. And they're not

alone. Every other state is kind of taking those calculations and being like, whoa, it's making sense. Same thing we see with companies looking at Bitcoin now and going like, oh, it makes sense now. And I'm pretty excited for this. It's a wave of a lot of connecting the dots that maybe 2020 was a time for us all to kind of quiet ourselves, get a little bit more, you know, inward and realize things. And the connecting the dots is making a lot more sense for a lot of more people. Right. And I remember thinking in March and April last year that we were kind of all super screwed, right? I mean, Bitcoin crashed. We didn't, like nobody was going to the office. We didn't think anything was going to happen. But in retrospect, maybe it was sort of the best thing that happened for our industry.

I think it accelerated a digital future, which a lot of us were going to deny. I mean, no one really brings this up, but QR codes or the person of the year in 2020, my grandmother knows how to read a menu off her phone now. That never happened, nor was it in the plans for it to happen for her. And we've really been able to teach each other these digital skills and light bulbs are going off and saying, okay, I get it. 24-7 makes sense. We don't have to be in time. Like what is work when work is 24 hours as well? We might as well have money that works for us the same time we're working. investing in Bitcoin in their treasuries and seeing it as a cash reserve asset. I think you could argue that. Well, yeah. I mean, if you're stocking, you go up a few hundred percent. These balance sheets are doubling more than they've ever seen. I mean, you saw Tesla do more in their Bitcoin balance sheet than they did in the quarter of the product that they sell.

It's really, I mean, why even run a business anymore, right? Just buy some Bitcoin. I would say that except for I do run that business that just helps people get Bitcoin. So I'm as close as I can. My treasury is in crypto. It is crypto. Right. But do you think that we would have ever seen Bitcoin truly viewed by those companies and by people, you know, really institutional investors as a hedge asset, because that was something that we crazy people were saying in 2018 and they laughed at us. Would that have happened? I can't say we're crazy. So I think it would have happened eventually. We just were helped out. The acceleration of this apocalyptic vision that made Bitcoin an absolute resource we all need to have access to just accelerated. And it certainly helps a lot with the narrative. And I think even more so, we're seeing new events come through that are bringing in other narratives.

You're seeing the Wall Street bets rally and GameStop bring in another narrative that people are like, oh, not only is the scarcity something I need to be focusing on, it's the self-sovereignty that I need to be, the decentralization that I need to be focusing on. And it might be the scenario where we've seen black swans really kind of increase in their amount of time that are bringing these events forward. The narratives that work for Bitcoin are now being played out in real time. And I'm a kinetic learner, so I only learn by doing things. And this is giving me like the easiest classroom ever to be like, in this situation, this is why Bitcoin works.

In this situation, this is why decentralization is important. And I think that's super helpful for folks to learn in real time. I think it's so funny that you Freudian slipped to GameStop because I've done that every single time someone has asked me about GameStop and every person I've had on has called it GameStop across the board. They've got to have a t-shirt then with that and be like, you know you say it like this. Yeah. Or I'm thinking South Carolina should have the Gamescock with a GameStop on there. That would be really smart. So I'm curious, mentioning GameStop and obviously what we

saw with WallStreetBets and Robinhood, which you just brought up, we've seen reports of crazy, crazy user growth by exchanges in the United States as a result of presumably a mass migration from Robinhood. Is that what you guys are experiencing? Yeah, talk to me about it. Let me tell you how we've grown. I mean, it's really incredible. You were one of the first people that we spoke with when we were kind of budding up and around. Would you ever believe that we've handled over $27 billion of digital asset trading since our inception? In the first 33 days of this year, we've done more than the trading we did in 2020. Really? Yeah. We've already cleared $15 billion of trading volume in 2021 alone. And the number of users from December till now is up 160%.

So if people are worried about why I look like I might not have showered, the answer is I might not have. I'm trying to onboard users hand over fist right now and we're modifying in real time how we can let in not just tens of thousands of people, it's now hundreds of thousands of people. And it's amazing the influx and demand. And a lot of it's coming from, A, products we provide. It's really great that we have over 50 digital assets for people. It's also great that our trading fees are 14 times lower than other folks. But we also had Dogecoin. That was an unprecedented dynamic in the market that made us really leap ahead.

And we've absolutely loved it because people come to us and want to trade Doge and it's a safe place for them to come. We've got great on-ramps and dollars for folks to change in digital assets. And you're kind of sitting there going, this all makes a lot of sense. I hope I don't, I hope I'm not the reason why the rally doesn't continue. Like I hope I can grow enough to make this industry where it needs to be. Well, I was going to ask if it was largely just because people were fed up with Robinhood or if there was a specific asset that brought them over, or if it was a perfect sort of timing of those things happening and people hearing about crypto, or is it literally like doge to the moon?

No, it's a perfect storm the moon no it's a perfect storm yeah it's a perfect storm i mean i was i was told i was crazy for coming into the u.s market when i did uh being like the last man in and super super saturated market it's you know there's so many exchanges no one needs no one needs another one blah blah blah i'm like i know a lot of people that need another one because they're signed up on my platform right now. Yeah, and also like it's a very different offering to compare you to most of the exchanges here that have minimal trading pairs

and are doing something different. Yeah, we've got technical analysis on our app. Like it's, our mobile apps are built for the folks that want to get in easy and buy crypto in 20 seconds for 10 cents each time they buy with $20. And we also have the guy that's to get in easy and buy crypto in 20 seconds for 10 cents each time they buy with $20. And we also have the guy that's doing like RSI analysis and technical trading, which typically isn't a guy on their phone, but in COVID everyone's on their couch. And so it's like, we've been able to adapt to a new way that we think users are going to be wanting to trade, be involved in

digital assets. And a lot of that comes from us just listening to our users. I talk to them all day. My DMs are open. I've had great conversations with some of the coolest people in crypto. Some of the people I've never expect, Gene Simmons. Gene Simmons posting doge memes. I mean, what world are we in? I think we're in the world that says people need this. Like it's a time for us to recognize the power of the internet. And while you and I quipped about the power of the internet, bringing us music in the early days, now the musicians are meeting crypto through the internet.

It's a kind of ironic circle back to just the idea that we're increasing the freedom for people to do things they've always wanted to do. And the barriers for entry are drastically changing. And that to me is super important. And it will continue because there's still barriers to entry. And I hear it, I hear it every day because people are like, I was trying to get on your platform and I couldn't get on. And I was like, well, human error is one of the problems. You put the wrong street address, you're not going to be able to match your address. You've got a driver's license that doesn't match your home state. These are problems that we're having to face and figure out. And

a lot of it is really happening because of what we've experienced in the last year. It wasn't a blip. It's a new, it's a new life that we're adapting to and I'm excited for it. It's amazing. So it seems like it's the classic sort of slowly than all at once. Slowly than all at once. Yeah. I think that's actually pretty accurate. And I don't think we're at the all at once stage either. That's, that was my next question. So we obviously, it's very clear that we've reached a tipping point of some sort, right? So I think everyone has PTSD about that tipping point in 2017. Yeah, maybe we're taking profits a little earlier. It's a little bit smarter.

Right. You felt like it was happening, but then the rug was pulled. I mean, I've made the argument constantly, and I think anyone rational does it. It doesn't look the same, right? But you just said maybe that this isn't all at once yet. So what is all at once? What are the signs that we are hitting all at once? Because this is crazy. It's crazy, but you're still hearing skepticism from strangers. And I think that's an important factor where you walk down the street and there's a dollar on the ground, someone's going to pick it up. Someone thinks it has value. Someone thinks it's important. Very few people are going to walk over and be like, I don't understand that. I'm not picking that thing up. And that's where we still are with Bitcoin. I was

walking down the street and had a conversation with someone that I just met. And they asked me what I did. I explained what I do. And they go, I don't know about that Bitcoin energy spin, though. I just don't know about it. And I was like, that is a very advanced question that someone on the street is strangely asking. And I'm happy to talk about it. Nick Carter's been doing a great work on discussing the energy and aspects of Bitcoin.

But that is a, I call it like an adult question that someone's had, whereas before it was just like, that's pirate money. And so we're seeing this evolution of the questions being asked are getting smarter. They're being more intuitive of like, how is this going to affect me? How am I going to plug this into my life? What can I do if I had the skills to be able to navigate digital assets? And that I think is the like education adult adolescent zone that we're going to be getting into. But by no means are we in a fully mature market that's going to be as saturated as I expect it to be. So you're literally having these conversations every day.

And as you said, you just sort of touched on seeing this evolution of the kind of questions that you're getting from people. Do you think that you're getting these questions and this interest just because people are hearing about it and it's interesting and new? Or I would like to think, but I don't know, that there's some grand awakening

about the actual macro problems that make this important? I think people got the first, if they didn't have disposable income before 2020, they got their first dose of disposable income with a stimulus check. And they realized the power that having money and making those decisions with it can provide that then gave them an interest into, well, how did that person turn their stimulus check into $5,000? Oh, I had to invest it or I had to save it or I didn't spend it. People are getting a more conscious awakening of what money can mean in their lives because money is being printed out of every orifice of this nation. And that to me is something that I didn't grow up with in the nineties, really seeing that

everywhere. I didn't feel like, oh, that's how, that's how governments work. You just simply, you know, you devalue the currency and you print it, print it into oblivion. But we've had QE for the past 10, 12, 15 years of just that being the norm. And so this kind of meme, memeage of money being so accessible now it's sprayed out of cannons. It's, you know, it's, it's it rains from the ceiling like is it is something that I think people are getting more comfortable with the idea of money. They're making smarter choices with it, and realizing that they can learn those choices they're not ones that they're born with. a lot of people's expectations on their lives. The freedom that people kind of have this awakening to and saying, I might not be in control of where I grew up or what I have the skills at, but I can learn those. And they're not that hard and they're not that difficult. And if I make a mistake and I do it in a small size, I've learned a lesson and I become smarter at it. And, and it's, it's really neat to see that process take place. It's happening among friends of mine that have been allergic to money for years. It's happening. It's happening to

younger generations of folks that typically were shipped off to universities and been thought about their jobs and their careers, maybe their junior year, maybe well after they're starting, you know, they're, they're, they're looking at it early. They're like, I'm 18 years old. I'm on Reddit. I love it. I want to study this. I've seen this. I've been following wall street bets. I love liquidity. Like there, there's a more, it's the access ramp into understanding money and understanding how to acquire it, how to grow it, how to manage it is becoming accessible. And that's a big goal. right? Like Hertz going 5X and all these crazy things that we saw. So do you think that it was really the complete insanity around GameStop? I did it. I didn't say GameStop. GameStop. Do you think there was the insanity around that that was sort of the straw that's breaking the

camel's back for people seeing how just insane and wrong the stock market is? So 55% of America owns stocks. 11% of America owns Bitcoin. Someone's going to learn about one and the other is going to learn about the other. And one of them feels a little bit less corrupt than the other. And it seems to be resonating quite well with people that are offended by what happened with Robinhood. And I think that that is a really cool aspect because in the equities world, of the fixed income world, of the Wall Street world that was keeping this language to themselves and this kind of witchcraft of understanding to themselves that now has bled into a very prosperous community that is capturing those concepts and kind of blurring those lines.

And to me, that's one of the most exciting parts. The second part is that if you realize like 87% of, or 85% of American homes have internet connections and you're like, oh, well it's in everyone's, it's in everyone's backyard. That's amazing. Like that is very different than living near a bank. That is very different than growing up with someone that was a stockbroker as a dad. That's very different than having ambitions to be Andrew Carnegie when you're 12 years old. Like there's, there's a difference in the access. And I think that's where we really are thriving. And it's, I ask this of everyone in the industry, be as approachable as possible. Because the only thing that we're able to do is educate people,

not intimidate them in this process, get them to understand the facts, get them to understand where to find the facts, where to make these analytical decisions themselves. And it's power is theirs. Yeah, the flip side of that, obviously, is TikTok traders, right? I mean, we know that with the influx in interest is going to be a lot of pain for retail, who thinks that they are God tier traders five minutes after making their first purchase, right? Yeah, in 2017, we learned what happens when a trading population has only seen one side of the market. No one, no one knew what a, what a sell candle or like what a red candle looked like. And, um, now that we've seen it, now that we know it, there's a little bit different trading philosophy going through some things. There's,

we're always going to make human errors. We're always going to balance and have to suppress our egos that are like, I'm a golden God of trading and check yourself. I mean, discipline is one of the biggest things that you can do to be a good trader. And the moment you sacrifice that, you just go straight into the claws of the market. But I think the interesting thing with TikTok, and I've been following TikTok since we started. I actually, when I opened up the platform, I did a TikTok. It was my first TikTok, and it was me. You mentioned TikTok to me well over a year ago. Yeah, it was me in the office at 5 a.m. jamming out to Lizzo when we launched it, because it was just such a euphoric moment that we went live, and here I was just like, seeing it happen. But I've been following it because I think following how communication works

is a kind of the front runner of where you're going to move money. And you're going to have those conversations first before you exchange value. And so where we can map and see how communication changes, we can follow the money that way. Email got ahead of crypto. Right. Pretty obvious. You know, you're going to, you're going to see Instagram and then followed by ads and influence and moneymakers from that. So TikTok fascinates me because there's something that hedge funds and big macro traders don't have, and that's a TikTok analyst.

They don't have data on community-based capital raising. They don't have algorithms that predict sentiment of memeage. And you can't run a meme through a satellite that takes images of Walmart parking lots to figure out if sales were down. Right. asymmetries of information that are like handicapping some of the best traders in the world right now, because they don't have the intuition or the understanding or the filter necessary to digest what's happening in this new world of communication. So if any hedge funds are looking for a, a Tik TOK analyst, I'm more than happy to lend my services. I'm fluent in TikTok and it's something that I- 10,000 an hour.

Yeah. I am happy to consult people in understanding how younger generations communicate and fads and trends because I'm fascinated by it. It's interesting though, because they never thought that the young people would care. So they never paid attention to them, I think, in my mind. But crypto has been ahead of that. I think I read that on a hieroglyphic on a wall in caveman. The younger people don't know. They don't care about stocks, stonks. But crypto has been ahead of that forever. I mean, there's been great platforms that analyze sentiment in this space. And when you have a community like crypto Twitter, where you can very, I mean, you can intrinsically just go on there and understand what people are thinking, right. And counter trade it in theory, but it's really interesting

for you to say, cause I never thought of it that way that wall street really just, they're so old and crusty that they really don't have their finger on that pulse at all. And now that moves markets. The only pulse they had was data from Robinhood traders. And that was their way of trying to digest what retail sentiment was up to. And so if you're only using that as the order flow, if you're only using order flow, you're going to miss on the nuance. You're going to miss on the rally cry that was occurring off platform. Like you're really going to be perplexed by the next 50 years of how influence and markets and communication are very different

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world's leading online Bitcoin casino and the home of fun, fast, and fair crypto gaming. When you saw the Wall Street bets and the Reddit thing and all these people sort of raging against the machine, the only thing you could think is, well, where do they find crypto? Why even do it in the stock market, right? I mean, we have our whole other universe over here. We've been talking about that for- Yeah. And like, oh man, I come from the institutional world and completely understand the darker sides of finance. And I'm like, I did not come here to build another Wall Street, I came here to change it. And it is absolutely that crypto definitely

provides those platforms for the unthinkable to happen in a much faster time. I think about like the half-life of the work that we do or kind of that cycle of events is in microseconds or like not even real seconds. We call them Binance minutes. And it's just because we somehow think that they're, they're much faster than 60 seconds. And I think that's, there's, there's a lot of changes that come from that benefit from a market perspective, from an entry perspective. But also you look at the other societal changes that we can open up and welcome in this. And I really encourage folks in this market, as well as those coming into it, to ask themselves,

we've seen society change so much in the last year by force of a pandemic. That's pretty strong in terms of something that's going to, you know, edge the way the stones are carved. But what else can be out there? And I think it was really pretty interesting this week was Whitney Wolf heard becoming the youngest female CEO and billionaire with the IPO of Bumble. And it doesn't get much bigger than hashtag goals of that. But the biggest part about it was that she gave women this freedom to make the first move. And that's something I fully

support and stand behind because Binance US lets women, lets anyone make their first move towards financial self-sufficiency. And crypto in general is giving people those tools. So I really love this chance for there to be more opportunities for people in an industry that lets them either carve out their career and or carve out their wealth generation. And that to me is something that I think is amazing, but I'm still perplexed that somewhat of the stereotype of women in crypto really has been quite still stuck and kind of parked in these stereotypes like bimbo, booth babe, or thirst trap. Yeah, and it's sad and it's incredible

because there are mountains being moved by women in this industry. Like we've built a team and a platform that's traded, I would say, $15 billion just this year alone. And the person that brings the platform back alive when the banks shut down overbowl Sunday, it's Reena Shah. She's, she's, she's my petroleum engineer turned crypto savant. That is my right hand and head of operations at finance us. So yes, it's run by one woman, but it's actually run by a lot more like shocker. There's more of us. And I think it's, it'd be a huge kind of disservice or a loss for the history books to just forget about these pivotal

transformations made in American access to crypto without the help of Caitlin Long, Hester Pierce, Elizabeth Stark, Abigail Johnson, Rachel Siegel, Wendy Oh, Melton. These are amazing factors that crypto has given us this key to unlock. And it took Jane Frazier 200 years to become the CEO of a bank. I mean, it's very strange that we even talk about women in crypto because there's nothing that would make it inherently different for either sex, right? I mean, we're just people in crypto. It's just people in crypto. However, there's still this perception that like, oh, we shouldn't even talk about women. We're not addressing how badass women in crypto actually are and what they're actually achieving. You can call us humans. We're doing shit. Yeah, for sure. I'm curious, actually, to that end,

I mean, you have the data. What percentage of the people who are signing up for Binance US are men and what percentage are women? Well, I don't sell my users data, so I'm not going to tell you that, but I would imagine we're still seeing a heavier weighting towards it being men, right? Yeah. But I'm actively hiring aggressively the best out there in the industry. And guess what? Our team is like 65% diverse in a way that is just making us stronger because of it. And it's really, I get jazzed up about crypto because it unlocks so many doors that people have been shut from. And that's where you're seeing the split over from Wall Street bets realized or not even

realized that they were being shut from or taken advantage of. My mom told me never to take free candy from a stranger. So I always get really worried when there's free, free stocks or free trading fees. Cause you know, it's baked into that spread, but to the average person, they might think it's free. They might think it's great. Like I I'm getting the deal. And in this world, you know, right. In this world, it means you're the,

you're the product. You're the click. Just like you are, you're getting played in that. And so it's tough because, gosh, I wish I could give zero free fees for everyone, but then you know that you've got to take your meal ticket from someone else. And so we offer the lowest fees possible to keep growing, but they're not zero. And so whenever I hear people say like, lower your fees even more, I'm like, no, you don't want me to sacrifice your data. You don't want me to sacrifice the privacy that I let you keep and protect.

And that to me is so much more important about the purpose of crypto, about the fact that we can avoid falling suit to these old ways of paying back the hand that feeds you most. And I'm excited that, I'm excited that we've gotten this far and my theory on accepting authentic folks to make a market more approachable is resonating well with people.

That sexism. And I mean, that sexism is in wall street and FinTech as well. I mean, it's right. It's far from, far from unique. I did not come here to come 2.0 and I came here to bust it out and say no. Right, exactly. So you think crypto would be the place where- I've been that and dealt with it and it never impacted my P&L.

And that's to me, the beauty of numbers is your P&L is, you know, it doesn't matter who you are. Can't argue with math. Market owes you nothing. Market owes you nothing, doesn't know your name, doesn't know your, you know, your horoscope. It is a beautiful and very meritocrate place when it is treated so. And for me, it's really important that the infrastructure that's being built in crypto does not take advantage of people and build something that looks very

similar to what we've been trying to avoid. Sure. So I'm curious, since we have this massive influx of people into the space who are interested, are you seeing most of them coming in attempting to be traders? Or are you seeing at least a huge percentage, I hope, I hope, coming in and just saying, I want to invest. I mean, the dollar cost average, I'm going to do it the boring and right way. Oh my God. Everyone's listening to you. Don't you worry. We've had an amazing growth of, uh, we offer a dollar cost averaging product, uh, which I was adamant about because I'm running a platform. I don't have time to buy on the dips. Like I need to just be exposed to this industry at large because I know

it's going to be massive and I need it to be doing it on an automatic basis. I got things to do. And so that's really where that convenience of having something that automatically bought for you every day, every week, every month was a feature that I think was going to be necessary. Because the biggest problem we've always faced is make crypto work for you. And then you realize you're like, oh my God, if that's the case, I'm up 24 seven. I don't sleep. I'm watching the markets all day long. Like, no, we've got to make this thing sustainable. We've got to make it work for us. So we've had a huge influx in our dollar cost averaging product. People absolutely love it. The fees are 10 cents for every $20 that you buy, which is ridiculously great. And that to me is a sign that people are understanding how not to get

overhyped, how not to get over worried about the fluctuations in the market and the volatility. And so continuing to teach people about, you know, committing to your thesis, understanding why it is that you're committed to this, to this, why, why is it that you find crypto fascinating enough? You want to spend your time and sure your thesis might change. It might be very different. It might be specific to a token in a certain amount of time, but you need to be in charge of that thesis yourself. You don't need to let other people tell you, you don't need to try to chase things like that. That to me is one of the most critical parts of, of getting people to think that. And we've seen a lot, a lot of hodlers. We get a lot of questions of people saying,

can you just like turn off my withdrawals? I like, I don't want to take money out of this. And I'm like, yeah, I think you can just, you don't have to do it. Like you don't have to, but first you have to sell. Yeah. You know, it's like, it's pretty, pretty easy for that. But I mean, my, my thesis really still stands and I know how many users we've got on the platform, but you know, there's 280 million people with smartphones in the United States. So crazy. I don't, I don't care who you are right now. We don't have 280 million users right now in the U S in crypto. Yeah. So let's go, let's keep going. We've seen an amazing surge in the last, I mean, January onward, we had what five of the top 10 apps were crypto related finance. U S was in the top 10 apps. We were ahead of Google for God's sakes

for, you know, short period of time, but in the top 20 apps ahead of Amazon and Google. And I, I, I took a screenshot of it and I said, I think I'm doing something. Like, I think our team has building something people need and want. And that's really a cool feeling that people are recognizing that they can't sleep through this. They can't let technology take 50 years and then they get involved in it. Like, why would you? Why would you fall asleep and let something be defined without your input? And we're not just seeing this crazy retail interest. I mean, every single day now, there's some piece of news that would have literally blown my mind six months ago in and of itself. And now it's just another day in crypto, MasterCard, PayPal,

city of Miami. I mean, every- Oh, Mayor Suarez is killing it. Every single day. So we're not only seeing it obviously on the retail side, like 2017, but I think we're starting to see real adoption or moves towards it. We absolutely are. We saw the institutional validation of the summer of 2020 will like live in infamy. And I, my dad and I talk about this all the time when I was first tiptoeing in and he was like, well, whatever you do, will it prevent you from getting a job at JP Morgan again? And now like, I probably could apply to JP Morgan and get a job tomorrow. Like, I mean, I probably couldn't. I would like to think you could. J.P. Morgan's a really hard institution to get involved in.

So it still has really high caliber of people that are involved in the institution. But it is not something that Paul Tudor Jones will shame me for anymore. It is not something that Stan Druckenmiller will look and say, she was crazy. Why did she do that? You'd be like, yeah, she was a little early. But like, that's fine. I had to do my homework. I had to get ready for it. Confidence is confidence for me. So I had to get some time, but I've only been in the industry for what, four years? I was going to say, talk about Binance minutes. You're too early if it's been

like two to four years. Yeah, I started in 2019 and I'm too early. I mean, that's such a testament to how fast this is moving. But then again, in my opinion, how early we still are. I think we are because a huge portion of people don't know the value that comes from macro traders thinking through something like this. Most of the world doesn't understand that macro traders basically control enormous amounts of the money that circulates the world. And the countries, whole countries

have gone down at the power of them. And that to me was something that I just witnessed and loved to see when I was on the FX trading desk. And you'd see Samsung come in for a price. You'd see Google come in for a price. You'd see these huge rebalances of corporate flows. And those were the underlying reasons why Soros was, you know, taking advantage of certain price fluctuations. And so the fact that we've changed the makeup of this crypto market from a couple of bros and a couple of traders and a

couple of, you know, wannabes to now having just that diverse type of trader, it's making the market so much healthier. And it's going to be giving us an insane amount of liquidity, which is necessary for folks like Elon Musk to pump through $1.5 billion in Bitcoin. And that to me is a really great sign of the maturation that's going to be happening. You don't want it to look just like you. You want it to have a corporate balance that requires monthly rebalances and a corporate treasury flow that's going to be consistent. You want to have macro sharks. You want to have derivatives. You want to have options, traders coming in and really having unique flows that are going to be balancing this market and reducing that volatility,

but also making it work for everyone. I mean, you just talked about Elon Musk being able to buy $1.5 billion worth of Bitcoin, which is a feat in and of itself. You know, Michael Saylor, I wish he had come to us. He would have said 14 times on those trading fees. I just feel bad for him. Yeah, he blew it. You know, Michael Saylor obviously started this, but we saw that Michael Saylor had to basically, you know basically hire a team to make 16,000 microtransactions over the course of a weekend. And so as exciting as that is, it gives you a little pause, like how does someone who wants to buy $500 billion or $200 billion or $50 billion, we're not at those numbers yet, obviously, but we saw a talk about an Apple coming in or something like that. And obviously, for it to be a significant percentage of their treasury, it would have

to be much larger numbers. So how do we get to a point where those orders can be filled and those kind of companies can really start looking at this seriously? It's happening. The adjustments are being made within the system to make sure that we can accommodate that size going forward. And you're seeing the likes, I mean, you saw the early likes of Tagomi and Talos kind of coming into this market,

being able to provide trade execution. That's the other thing a lot of people don't understand is no one is going to sit there and be like, I'll just put a limit order here, click, boom, I'm filled. No, you've got like trade cost analysis that has to go through, that has to be vetted by the entire compliance team and management department of real money and pensions before trades are executed. You've got to prove that you've got the best execution. That's impossible right now in crypto. We don't have trade cost analysis.

We don't have predictive price patterns yet for people to then say, OK, my fill should be around 48 you know, 48 and a half or something like we have these big broad ranges that allow us to try to get in the market, but not at the caliber or the accuracy of detail that these larger trading institutions are expecting. And so there's some minor adjustments that are being made. And then there's some bigger major plays that are in the works that take time to be building, but we're kind of changing those calibrations to being like, instead of 1 billion, 5 billion, like instead of this, you know, that, and it even starts, I think when we started, we looked at, we looked at

everyone's kind of VIP trading tiers. And it was amazing that some folks hadn't really changed theirs from 2017. And it was like a $10,000, you're a VIP. And you're like, man, nowadays it's like 500 million as a VIP or we, we start VIPs pretty early. So you can go up the scale, but, um, we did the same, our, our kind of our easy way to buy crypto, it started with a max of $10,000. We already upped it to $20,000 because people are trying to buy more. And that's only half a Bitcoin. Someone might want to come in and want to buy one Bitcoin. You kind of look at it and say, do I have to do this? I have to click the button twice to buy a Bitcoin? That's not going to work for me. So those changes are being made. I think that's something that I'm very well aware of the magnitude and size of what the real market I'd say exists. I hate calling it the real market because it's just, everything's a market. But I really am preparing

our team for the institutional build-out. We've done a fantastic job. We've got a team, John Hemish came over from crypto.com and Kraken and prior was a futures trader. I hope you get him on your show. He's a great guy. I know he's your head trader. He's whip smart and just gets it. And I think that's something that our clients like to have on the other side. They want to have a 24-7 coverage of their guy. Rena's on the other side of it and handles everything that they need from, you know, I got an ETH withdrawal that's kind of going to be big. I need a heads up to what are you guys seeing? What's kind of happening?

I need to be more familiar with this market because I'm sitting here in an execution trade desk and you're not giving me enough market color. I'm not gathering enough information of how this market's evolving. So we're definitely building out to welcome the institutions while giving that same quality of service to our retail. Because I don't think it should be that slopes are asymmetrical. And that's just because I think everyone should be treated in a great way. And we're having to make drastic changes to our onboarding, drastic changes to our customer service components because the scale now is here, not here. And that to me is super important that we are not the reason the industry gets bottlenecked. Do you think that, obviously, MicroStrategy and Square, we've seen a few, but do you think

that Tesla is big enough that now literally everyone has to be looking at it? Or do you think we need a few more? Having been on the side of corporate treasury and cash management, they're really conservative. They're really slow. But they have no alternatives. You're going to put a sweep account of your cash to make nothing? Well, that's not going to work for companies. There's no longer that juicy fruit in current offerings for treasuries to be able to squeeze out three to 8% on average, just to keep their cashflow somewhat buoyant. And that is what I think is really going to be a question when CEOs are looking at their treasury and they say,

thanks for earning me nothing. Like what's your, what's your game plan to make sure that we're beating our competition and, you know and keeping our balances afloat? What is the, why did Tesla make $180 million yesterday? Like, what were you doing? And the person's going to be like, you've got to have the answers. And I don't think people are having enough answers by saying no. So I do hope to see it. I'm happy to help welcome the treasury

management teams to understand all the nuances. They're going to have to learn, you know, self-custody. They're going to have to learn the trade execution. They're going to have to learn a little bit more of the nuance and up their security measures. I mean, this isn't something that you can just rely on FDIC insurance to cover. This is something that you've got to now factor into your risks that you've got inside the company. It puts a target on your back, I think is something that other companies need to be prepared for and mature about.

Like all these corporations that are announcing they're doing it, it's putting themselves at a little bit of a security risk. And so I'm guessing- Yeah, hack me. I'm guessing a lot of people might be doing this without saying so. So much like institutional traders, some of the best are quiet. So crypto is a little bit out there. We like to announce when we're buying one thing. We like to announce

when we're buying another. No one announces when they sell. But it's really a quieter world when it goes into corporate treasury and institutional investors. Right. So you talked about them having to learn self-custody. Well, a year ago, you wouldn't even have been able to find a custodian. You literally would have had to self-custody. But now, I mean, at least there are some options seemingly where they can partner and have custody insured. Is the ETF the final boss of that where it's not custody anymore at all and you just invest in ETF and then you give these institutions an instrument that they're comfortable with and familiar with and all of a sudden they feel, I don't mean the final boss for crypto, but for all of these people to be able to enter

willy-nilly and just plow their treasuries in. You see my face kind of cringe a little. You know, you're going to come and look and go, why am I paying these fees? Like I could do this myself. Am I really, is it really that hard that I have to pay 2% away for holding something plus another, you know, four or five for management of it in some

other capacity. I'm getting that question asked by a lot of people that hold these kind of existing funds. They're like, wait, I don't have to keep paying these fees. I could just hold Bitcoin and have extreme price action. I was like, yeah, and you can sell it whenever you want. You're in control. A lot of people are like, that has some added benefit. So I think it eases the on-ramp. Absolutely. We've seen that clearly with Grayscale of easing the on-ramp of people getting into something, but they're getting smarter and they're looking at the receipts and going, well, that'd be a lot more sats if I didn't pay that away. Yeah, especially if your goal is only to offset that slight percentage gain in cash. If you're giving up that percentage gain the other way,

it becomes a little less attractive. And it really becomes a case of how much do you have to lose or how much do you have to spend? Tesla's balance sheet's enormous. So they could afford to pay the fees that they had to in order to execute that trade. They could afford to go through a, you know, an ETF or another vehicle to pay management fees on. And that's great, but not everyone can afford it. And not every company wants to

kind of weigh that on that. I mean, micro strategy at this point. I think they're all trying to get smarter and smarter and smarter and they're in the business to preserve that money. They're going to think about it. I mean, what makes micro strategy such an anomaly is, you know, at this point, it's like a quarter of their market cap is represented by their Bitcoin purchase. Yeah. You look at Square, which is like a hundred billion dollar company or Tesla, you know, $800 billion market cap. $1.5 billion is nothing for a company with $800 billion market cap. It's an experiment. Like they're testing the waters. Right. But they know that their waters are pretty good. They're going to buy more. They're going to buy more. And they know that 55% of people own stocks and only 11% own crypto. So it's a larger part of the pie that's more comfortable with that vehicle.

I think that the light bulbs will go off and in due time, we'll be able to prepare and build up our infrastructure to look like something that's super easy for those folks to be able to navigate through and feel like we answer we check all the boxes that they're looking for and um then the worlds will meet and we'll have live bitcoin as my mom calls it she's like she's got live bitcoin i'm like yeah yeah it's like a little fish in the fish in the tank that one's live um so they'll they'll be uh they'll be managing that but um god it's gonna be so exciting to see the number of like talented people come into the space to be able to already like i i i love the treasury individual because i myself worry about about FX P&L all day long and globalization

matters to me. But well, for the first time ever, I've not like thought of a global mindset. I've just been like, here's the United States. And this is my, my piece of pie. But for any company that's trying to go global or expand their operations, they're bleeding cash every single day that the FX is moving out of their favor or they're, you know, repatriating their revenues and something's off in that. And so it's a real big burden for them to navigate this. And they write it off in all their earnings reports and say like bad year for FX P&L and didn't harm the company, but crypto could do something very different for them.

And I'm excited for it. Yeah, it certainly would simplify things quite a bit, but in that regard. It's interesting. So we obviously, seeing all these institutions viewing this as digital gold. Go ahead, sorry. It's also like, my FX muscles look really big right now. We're a rounding error to anyone that's making like an equity trade or a product that works. Like it is, it is funny when you deal with movement of money and the balancing of it.

It's, it's rounding error sometimes. So I do have to kind of like zoom my mic microscope out and be like, yeah, but creating a really great electric car is pretty powerful too. Yeah. It's kind of a big deal. I was going to say, we see this digital gold narrative now is fully in play. You know, like gold 2.0, save it. You know, it's for saving.

It's a treasury asset. Listen to yourselves though. Does it resonate with everyone? That narrative doesn't work for me. Gold people. Yeah, who are gold people? Boomers. Okay. There's doesn't work for me. Gold people. Yeah. Who are gold people? Boomers. Okay. There's a lot more out there. I'm kind of sick of the digital gold narrative. It doesn't work for me. So talk to me about what narrative does work for you.

For me, it's the 24-7 access and full authority of being able to get in and out of these with my own decisions. That to me seals it. I can work all day. I can trade all night. I don't have to go to a bank. I don't have to be on their time. I don't have to be on their hours. This is my life, my time, my hours, my coins.

That to me works. So when do they fix the taxes in the United States so that we can actually use it? That's probably the know, that's probably the longest thing we'll have to deal with. Yeah. Nobody likes buying coffee and having a taxable sale of an asset to do so. No. So there's a use for stable coins, but I agree. I think that's one of the biggest blockers to complete mass adoption and probably rightly so. Like you're going to attack something you don't understand.

It's the easiest way to slow down success. Put a tariff on it. History's told. Yeah. So what do you see? I mean, one, as you said. Did I throw you off on saying digital gold doesn't work for me? No, because no, no. I think that that's great. If I could redo explaining Bitcoin to Dave Portnoy, I would. But like digital gold, it doesn't resonate with me.

And I may represent half the population. No, but that's interesting because you have like the peer-to-peer cash and then the digital gold. Those are like the two popular narratives, but it's really somewhere right down the middle, which is what you're describing. It's not perfect cash. I love the scarcity element of it i love the decentralization balance of it so i know that i'm not the only one that's cheering for it yeah sure you're like absolutely i might be cheering for it but it actually really works

in other countries and it's actually really right it's actually a really important asset beyond just something you, I guess, store away and never look at again, dust it off one day. So your January, like you said, was basically bigger than 2020 and markedly bigger. So what's the rest of 2021 look like? I guess for you guys as a company, but then

also more importantly, yeah. And then more importantly though, like if we're seeing just these small things, the master car, all these little things happening, what does this look like in 10 months if this continues? Gosh, I would have been wrong if i had predicted what 10 months looked like when i last was on your call sure to everyone would have but yeah so i actually i might have to re-listen to it to see if i predicted anything on that show um but the rewind the tapes um the the prediction I have is the element of education is going to be different than we saw it before. Last year, I spent a lot of time teaching people about the basics and the nuances of digital assets, what the stimulus money really meant to them, what the burdens were with fiat money, especially in the time of COVID that made digital assets make sense, what the having meant and going from there. So I feel like no one listened because I was doing all of that, all of 2020. And we only, you know, we only did what we did, which was still in what our opinion was a vertical growth for

January, December for us, but then it went parabolic. And that to me, I think is going to advance the criticism people are going to be understanding. And we're teaching people, it's kind of like teaching AP class. Like you could have been in algebra, but now you're in AP, like AP trigonometry. Like you got to learn risk management way more now because the money that you're making is a lot more. The volatility is significant. The entry costs are pretty sizable. You know, getting to be savvy and understanding the impact of these announcements and learning about what does MasterCard really provide? What does Visa Network adopting crypto welcome?

Is this going to change the way we're going to get access? Is this going to change the cost of payment processors? That's an enormous business. That's a very different business if we're changing up the payment processor flow. I don't think that's what we're doing. So I think it's just going to be kind of double time the education. And unfortunately, we need to remind people where to go and how to get information to it, because these are all brand new folks into the crypto scene, or they're folks that were in crypto and were sick of the way

that they were being treated, looking for new ways of accessing it. And therefore they're some of the best teachers we've got. They've been around the sun a couple of times and they're ready to continue, you know, helping and getting this message made, making sense for people, helping people understand it. We've had amazing success with, we were on, we're on our second time now doing a trading competition with HBCU colleges and universities. And it's awesome. A lot of them graduated in December and are like, I'm looking for a job. And I was like, what are your skills? And they're like, well, I know your platform. I've done this. I'm like, yes, you are actually like you're equipped. You've studied, you're good. You understand it. You've got this. And I think

that's what it's really going to be taking is people applying not only crypto to understanding. It's going to be cocktail conversation now. That's a no brainer, which it probably wasn't, but we also didn't have cocktail parties. Imagine cocktails. Yeah. You're in Florida. Florida has been open since 20 years. You got to stay away from us Flor Floridians. That's a different conversation. But there's going to be this normalization, but also you've got to provide the teachings of it. You've got to provide the education of it. You've got to be able to deliver the AP classwork

for people to be able to then make crypto part of their careers, crypto part of their lives. I'm seeing people change their careers based on the fact of their crypto holdings right now. Do you know how freeing that is? Do you know how awesome it is for them to be like, I loved being an accountant, but no, not anymore. I'm going to go work on Chainlink. As long as they go work on something and don't think that they're going to retire and have to come back in a year, like the 2017 buy a car, have the car repo three months later vibe. Yeah. Maybe there's a positive for crypto, like for COVID not letting us be as extravagant with our spending in this time. Maybe there's a nice little humility that we've all learned. People don't really care about your car. You still have to wear a mask in it kind of thing.

So true. But so, so maybe, I mean, A in 10 months, I hope the world is a little bit more humble. I hope we understand that like everyone can be affected by something extremely powerful for good, for bad, but that's awesome. We've all been negatively affected by COVID and we could all be possibly positively affected by digital assets. Universal trends are going to be continuing to happen. And I think it can be supported as long as we continue to teach people the right tools, give them the tools and make sure that we're not

letting bad behaviors or social changes be suffocated by ignoring them or just thinking that they'll go away because they won't. And I think that's one of the best parts about the birth of the internet and the growth of where we're headed is voices and changes are making action that takes place. I've seen it in Bitcoin. It's going to happen elsewhere. But it's still going to happen big time in Bitcoin. Oh, man. Yeah. Well, I can't wait to see what this year has. And I'm really excited for you guys to hear that it's been such an incredible ride already, just even over the last month.

It's been amazing, but it's still pretty ridiculous that I've not met 80% of my team in person. Sure. Crazy. Yeah. I'd say same with even the people I work with. Yeah. It's really nuts. Like it's pretty, it's, it's normal on Twitter. Like I never expect to meet anyone on Twitter in person just because they're, they're my Twitter. But if they work for you. Well, if they, if they work for me and, and they help me out every day and I talk to them for, you know, 23 hours a day, I'd like to, I'd like to meet to know them. And, uh, I think that is going to be a huge

added benefit when we do get to meet each other, when we do get to, you know, connect on a level that's not Zoom. And I'm pretty pumped for, we're pretty pumped for that to be opening up in due time. Me too. I think that's a great way to finish it. So where can everybody follow you and obviously be one of the new people signing up to your platform in droves? Yeah, we'll definitely search for referral codes because we've got some really cool people that have been already old school Binanceans and would love to teach you more about it and help them earn crypto

and help you earn crypto as well. You can check us out at BinanceUS on Twitter, at Binance underscore US on Instagram. I'm always at Crypto Coley wherever I am, except on Club Instagram. I'm always at crypto Coley, wherever I am, except on clubhouse. I'm now at Catherine Coley and they wouldn't let me do that. Yeah. They wouldn't let me do at crypto Coley. And I was like, who has it? Who's trying to be me? Watch out for the scammers. Definitely be careful of that. But I'm, I'm loving I'm loving learning more through these new mediums of communication that we're adopting.

Um, so look out for, look out for where, where, uh, where I should be next. Tell me, teach me. I'm absolutely a student of these markets, fascinated by everything that's going on. Um, and sign up at finance.us if you want to save 14 times the fees that you've been paying right now. So awesome. Well, thank you so much. I'm so glad you came back for a second time. And the next time is going to have to be within a year.

We'll have to do it in like six months this time. Well, yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll shorten things like it's a finance minutes. It's a finance minutes. I'll talk to you. I'll talk to you in a quarter and we'll see where we are. I was going to say, we might have to do this in like two weeks if it's finance minutes. I'm going to get off this phone so I can start helping more people on board. Get to work. I'm sorry for keeping you so long. Thank you once again so much. Thanks so much.

Have a good one.