The Wolf Of All Streets - Why 10 Million People Use Trust Wallet | Eowyn Chen, CEO of Trust Wallet

Episode Date: September 29, 2022

I sat down with Eowyn Chen, the CEO of Trust Wallet, at Mainnet in New York to discuss the challenges of storing crypto, security, and the evolution of crypto wallets. Eowyn Chen: https://twitter.com/EowynChen Trust Wallet: https://trustwallet.com/ ►► Get 20% off on your ticket to W3BX. Use my code: WOLF20. Register here: http://web3expo.live/  ►► JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen  GET UP TO A $8,000 BONUS IN USDT AND TRADE ALL SPOT PAIRS ON BITGET FOR ZERO FEES! ►► https://thewolfofallstreets.info/bitget   TRADE ON THE WORLD’S BEST DEX, BULLISH: ►► https://thewolfofallstreets.info/bullish/youtube  Follow Scott Melker: Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets   Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io  Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe  Apple podcast: https://apple.co/3FASB2c  The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own and should in no way be interpreted as financial advice. This video was created for entertainment. Every investment and trading move involves risk. You should conduct your own research when making a decision. I am not a financial advisor. Nothing contained in this video constitutes or shall be construed as an offering of financial instruments or as investment advice or recommendations of an investment strategy or whether or not to "Buy," "Sell," or "Hold" an investment.

They say that the most stressful job in the world is being an air traffic controller, but I would imagine that being the CEO of a non-custodial wallet in the crypto space has to be a very, very close second. You have to worry about not only onboarding users and what you're going to build and how they're going to use it and make it simple, but also, of course, about the security of people's money and their assets. I spoke with Eowyn Chen, the CEO of Trust Wallet, and discussed all of this and more. Yeah, we're rolling. See, they already got us and we didn't even know it. That's great. You got a great team.

Everything we said is just incriminating and has already been used against us. So I think in 2022, one of the prevailing narratives in crypto has been all of the security issues, I think hacks, exploits, all of those things. So I have to imagine that you're pretty much awake 24-7 worried about things like that as the head of Trust Wallet. I think that's an industry theme, right? Like whenever there's a security scene that just tricks everyone's nerves because it's not good from an external perspective. I think the one that we're probably most nervous about was when

the slope wallet got exploited in Solana. Everybody thought it was you. Well, they thought it was Fantom, then they thought it was Slope, then I started seeing Trusts, but that's how things snowball on Twitter. I think that was actually a good exercise and just have the team to dig into every aspect, what's going on. But there are also some interesting phenomenon that exposes is that, yes, there are a couple of Trust wallet addresses are in there, but that addresses are also reused on other wallet

apps. But that's not in the exploit, it's happening on somewhere else. It's just interesting for me to think about for best security practices, should people reuse the wallet addresses in different apps? Or probably not, just like keep a wallet addresses in one place.

But then you kind of defeats the purpose to have the recoverability, that people should be able to move the wallet addresses in one place. But then it kind of defeats the purpose to have the recoverability that people should be able to move the wallet addresses, whatever that they want from any of the apps. Yeah, it just reveals some of these weaknesses and also benefits when it comes down to product design, industry designs. But that one, I think, keep the teams really awake and then do a lot of the digging. And it's great to know that there's nothing goes wrong. But that's still pretty sad for the industry to have to go through this.

What's better than listening to the Wolf of All Streets podcast? Listening and watching the Wolf of All Streets podcast live. Well, they say what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas, but this time that's not the case because I'm hosting a stage at a conference from October 10th to 13th. That's the WebEx conference. I'm going to be bringing you live podcasts, live panels, master

classes from the leading minds in the industry. This is going to be absolutely epic. It's going to be live streamed, recorded, and presented to you live. You can come have a happy hour with me, eat dinner, potentially play golf, and watch all of your favorite content being recorded in real time. Guys, the link for this is web three expo dot live that's web three expo dot live. Use code wolf 20 to get 20% off your ticket wolf 20 for 20% off your ticket. Guys, let's hang out in Vegas October 10 through 13. I can only speak from personal experience, but I was laying in bed that night and I started seeing it on Twitter and I was using a phantom wallet

and the original reports were the phantom wallet and I moved everything to Trust Wallet. Oh, you did? Okay. I didn't have my ledger accessible at the time. I was sitting there and I literally moved all of my Solana-based assets into Trust Wallet and I've been using your product for years. Oh, thank you.

For years. So knowing that these exploits hacks will happen, that there will be security issues, how do you possibly stay ahead and, I guess, anticipate what might be next? There's never a good way to predict what the security weaknesses are. I think one can only stay on top of our own security practices. So for example, previously TrustWallet was a complete open source wallet, right? So you get the community audit, have the bounty program so anyone can kind of chime in and share that if there's anything potentially goes wrong.

Also security audits that we have that going in place just so that, okay, we're no longer open source because people are using our open source product to scam people. So we realized that, okay, we're actually creating opportunity for scammers on security issues, then we need to reduce that. But then we still want to cover our own blind spots by having third party views to help come in and then do the security audits.

And I think the last thing is most important thing is just the priority and principles. So this is what we have been telling ourselves internally is security is always first. audits. And I think the last thing is most important thing is just the priority and principles. So this is what we have been telling ourselves internally is security is always first, right? Like there are always trade-off decisions that one has to make when it comes onto a product design. But security is something that if it needs to trade off anything else, like ease of use or self-custody, that security is the number one thing that we have to pay attention to. That comes down to culture, so that everyone, every developer, when they're doing the coding, they keep the same principle in mind. They know what trade-off decision to make,

that they can make the right decisions. Other than that, it's just stay on top of the industry trend to see if there are better security solutions, practices. Something that we're recently trying to do is that a lot of the securities we see, especially when it comes down to wallet users, are human weaknesses. I think 80, 90 percent of the issues are people getting scammed. And so the key is coming down to, can we do product design and user educations to somehow minimize the human weaknesses. So two work streams we're working on is, can we flag potentially scam addresses when users are going to send exactly to a scam addresses?

But without taking away users' agency, we're just going to give them a warning pop-up and say that, hey, do you want to think twice before you say something? Like, I'm not stopping you. We see that in web, too. This is a phishing address. Please do not click through. That exists in Google Chrome.

Exactly. I think that's a good practice. We just learn from what tends to work in the consumer behavior. Same thing with smart contract. So I think it's not very reasonable if our industry wants to go mainstream to expect everyone to read the code themselves. But there are better ways that we can leverage better technology like AI to scan all the smart contracts and identify that. Okay, I think this code is a little bit tricky or fishing with how they structure it.

And then we just give a notification or give a warning to the users before they sign the authorization and transactions to it. So those are some ways through information or product design, we can help the users to be more alert when they are potentially falling into traps. But other things are a bit more difficult needs education is like social engineering right like if someone's exposing their security not just on the wallet but let's say you save your password or your secret phrase on apple note yeah you know that anyone that can potentially got into an apple account get that encrypted information plain text same thing with evernote whatever bookkeeping right like people can this is something I think education is that how can we teach our generations about the digital security

the same way as we teach our kids about physical security? If digital life space is going to be such an important aspect of human life, why do we think this shouldn't be part of the curriculum or education? This is a social aspect. I think we need just to teach people how to be a responsible digital citizen. I think you just described one of the biggest challenges, I think, of crypto because we want everyone to self-custody. But we know that people don't understand how to self-custody or they're terrified or they're

going to likely make some sort of mistake. Because like you said, they might put their seed phrase in an Apple note, but it's equally scary to write it down on a piece of paper and hide it somewhere that you might lose it, you fall on your head, you don't remember. Are there going to be solutions, do you think, where the average person can self-custody but also not have to have that fear to go through all those steps? Yeah, I think in the space right now, like we always would look after key management, technological development, but between security, privacy, ease of use, that's always just like your impossible triangle. Yeah, the other triangle to

balance. I think different products might take a different approach, such as they might sacrifice a little bit of the sales custody or full ownership to prioritize security and ease of use. I think different people might have different ideology. For us, I personally think full ownership is the fundamental rights that differentiate between Web3 to the traditional world. And I think that when people start to have the taste of what food ownership enables them to do, people will grow into a more responsible person of being. And of course, we need to teach them along the way. Some of the technical movements that might be interesting that we're looking at, we're exploring is MPC smart contract. So

MPC somehow potentially can break things apart that helps with the recoverability a little bit. Smart contract can potentially also facilitate that process, but it also has its own weaknesses such as MPC, if you put all the sharded key parts again to one hole, that still becomes a single point of failure. They have to come together eventually. If you decide to leave a water environment. Right. But sometimes I think for us, it's that if you stop people from leaving your environment

by not giving them opportunity to, you know, combine all the shortcuts together, that's also wrong. But then users need to know that, okay, once I do that, that becomes very vulnerable, right? They need to know what's the next step to protect themselves, either by creating a new NPC wallet after they move the fence somewhere. So those are some of the still weakness part that doesn't get fully solved. But we just need to explore the product design and then see how human behaves, users behave, and then iterate from there. Speaking about product design, I've been a user of Trust Wallet for as long as I can really remember throughout my crypto journey.

Thank you. And I've seen the evolution. What do you think? It's very impressive. Well, I love it. So of course, it was first ERC20, and then you added other chains. And then all of a sudden, one day you went in there and you can swap directly. You didn't have to go to Uniswap anymore and all those things.

So what, first of all, I guess is a two-part question. One is there's a lot of wallets. So how do you differentiate yourself and be the winner to earn the market share and earn the trust? And two, then I guess continuing from that, what comes next? What are the big plans to make people choose Trust Wallet? Yeah, you definitely have the right observation. I think we come into evolution along with the industry. And then I believe that's the role of Wallet is to enable and grow with the industry and adapt to it.

So if the industry is moving to another direction, the job is for us to be positioned to where it needs to be. Previously, for example, we love Ethereum ecosystem and then we're gung-ho Ethereum, but we know that the users wants to be in other ecosystem too. We can make a conscious decision to say that, hey, we're just going to be Ethereum Maxi, we stay over there,

or we're a bit more user-focused and say that, hey, we design this product for users, not just for ourselves, right? If users wants to be in other chains, we will support other chains. And it's a pain in the ass to go cross chains. It's huge, yeah. So that's why for the past five years,

many people don't hear about us, is that the team are just tirelessly building the multi-chain wallet library, which is open source, by the way. Anyone can take this infrastructure and build their own multi-chain wallet on top of what they created, to expand to now 68 chains, EV EVM non-EVMs all together so we feel that right now it can't be the goal is to make it one-stop shop for people to hold

anything that they wanted over there something else also when it comes on to product design evolution is that I believe we're one of the earliest to create the dev store or dev browser to allow people to start to explore the different devs that's being built out there. The challenge is coming into that the industry, not just us, other players are facing that the centralized mobile, like Apple, Google, Android doesn't really like the Web3 space to have their own app store. So we got delisted a couple of times

because of the dev store. Then everything just go back to a very basic minimum URL browser. But still the goal is that this is an open permissionless window that users can go from their own mobile to any of the Web3 applications and then connect the wallet directly

there because a lot of our users are developing countries and doesn't really have a laptop or a desktop. Their phone is their computer. Exactly. So the phone is where they access everything. So we still need to enable that access points. And then going forward, I think we just want to double down two most important aspects that I think wallets should do. The first one is, honestly, our onboarding experience is still not good. As an industry, not specific to your wallet, I would say. Yes, we try our best, but there are limitations. But still, how can we abstract the key management away?

How can we abstract the security layers away, so that we can create the curate the users onboarding steps to the point that they get confidence. Yeah, they feel like they're signing up for something on web 2.0. That's the honest. And that right now, you have to give them something familiar where it's not daunting. Yes. So I think that is what our product team are working really hard on is that how can we move towards that goal. It probably won't be happening overnight, we just need to test it out. But

that's a core bread and butter that WALLET we should do for the industry better, again, together with the industry, other partners. The other part is, I think WALLET is already moving beyond just being an asset holder. Previously, it was like that because crypto industry's biggest attraction is the assets, right? Like it's the speculation, it is the investment. But investment is only one of the four pillars when it comes down to economic growth. Going forward, when there are more utilities happening, there needs to be usage of the crypto happening. And that will transition the wallet from just holding your crypto to become the browser to Web3. How can we become that open browser that connects and help users to explore anywhere that they want to go, just like what

Google Chrome will do to you. I think that is going to be more exciting, enabling now what is like us, with 10 million user bases, can better serve the industry by bridging the user base to the interesting dApps that helps the dApps to grow and the users get what they want from the values. So people come and becomes their launchpad to everything Web3 and it no longer is even really a wallet. I mean, it is a wallet, but you wouldn't even have to call it that because it has endless...

I think wallet is going to be a limiting term. We have a bad habit in cryptocurrency space of naming things that then six months later are not particularly accurate. And of course, Trust Wallet was bought by Binance. So can you talk about that partnership, what that relationship is like, what that's enabled you to do by being under that massive umbrella? Yes. So Trust Wallet was acquired by Binance back in 2018. Both companies were founded in 2017. So there's some good history that you know share the birthday, birth years together. But then when Binance

first acquired TrustWallet is because they realized that you know centralized is going to be one platform but decentralized needs a completely different gateway. And that's not what centralized exchanges would do the best. And TrustWallet at that time, when our founder Victor decided to be bought, is because he really wants to focus on not just making money for the revenue, but truly build a good product and technology

to help users growth. And that exactly is what Binance's expectation for TrustWallet, even onto nowadays. When I chat with CZ, I said that in bear market, do I need to worry about survival? Do I need to worry about break even, making revenue? He say, no, don't worry about it at all. The most important thing for TrustWallet is to help the industry to onboard their users. So do product well, help the space where the user grows, not focus on making money.

And I think that just makes it easier for us to focus on building the right thing. That's funny because every builder founder that I talk to says, I love this bear market. Everything has finally slowed down. There's so much less pressure. I can build things. I don't need to worry about price, but you get to be that way all the time. Yes. I think that's a blessing. I was talking to a Bitcoin ecosystem builder and they said that a lot of their founders are very stressed about doing token management, doing investor,

and afraid that the investor just dump on their tokens on a monthly basis, right? And they cannot focus on truly building the equity in the right product, but have to share that energy on something else. And luckily, we don't have that pressure so that we can focus our people on the right things to do. And that's a benefit with going with Binance

is that we try to not make fees a barrier for people to come in. So we basically charge nothing. Like I heard about wallets that charge listing fees. I heard wallets charging swap fees, all those. We try to keep things as bare minimum as possible, with the exception that if at some point we decided to have a business model or a revenue model at a different part,

I want to design in a way that it gives back to the token holders. I think that's the right way to do token economics is that values being captured through the project is shared amongst the builders, the contributors, and the stakeholders altogether.

And if I don't have a sustainable value accrued model, then I would not have anything sustainable to give to the token holders and the builders and the contributors. So that will come in handy with everyone else being taken care of. So we don't, we're not rushing into charging fees, making money, making huge revenues. That's not the end goal. The end goal is we want to do it by taking care of the token

economics. Are those the key revenue sources and drivers for most wallets? I mean, what's the incentive to start a wallet? Is it fees? You make money on fees? I think Metamask helps the industry to figure out swap fees is a huge chunk that people are willing to pay. I constantly hear from users complaining to me, oh, the fees are too high, too.

Well, a lot of the time those are gas fees and they don't realize it. Exactly, exactly. But for users, they don't care about the compensation. It's just the total cost to them. I think for the developing countries like us, it's okay. But for many developing countries, it's exorbitant from their standard.

So again, like how can we, even at the place that we are, to minimize it as much as possible? I got a lot of inspiration from Amazon. I think they did a very good job to bootstrap the e-commerce by making the fee, making the price as low as possible. And I think we can do the same thing if we wanted to bootstrap the Web3 industries too. I just hope that there's a way to, well, there are depending on your chain, but I know that Ethereum still dominates. And I'm still assuming that if we hit another bull market, that those fees are going to go out of control once again.

Yeah, we'll hope on layer two, right? People are hoping for that or any other layer ones. And how do you maximize the potential of layer twos within the structure of Trust Wallet? I think by us having a scalable approach for supporting multi-chain with the communities together is the way. Whenever which chain ecosystems are able to grow traction, both for developers and for user bases, we're there to help, to open up the access for both sides to happen. So that is something I think having that scalable infrastructure to grow, to support the multi-chain universe is the way.

We don't want to pick sides and say that, hey, I'm double down on this ecosystem. I think when you're small, your resources are limited. That's the right thing to do. But given our user base, like 10 million people have 10 million preferences on where they want to be, what they want to access. And I don't want to make parental decisions for them. Ultimately, we want to provide the freedom for them to choose.

And do you think that right now people prefer that freedom or do you think that they still kind of, even though we have the not your keys, not your coins sort of ethos, do you think that they still kind of, even though we have the not your keys, not your coins sort of ethos, do you think that they still are more comfortable with centralized exchanges and centralized custody because it's what they're used to? Because I think there's this mentality that people are just comfortable with banks. I think we often homogenize this or have a homogenous view about what the Web3 users are. But gradually, as the user base grows, I find people come from different contexts

and they make different decisions. So the key is to provide the options for them. For example, in developed countries like here in the US or UK, I think people are very comfortable with the existing financial infrastructures. The banks are reliable. FDIC is credible. So that's why most of our savings are probably still in the USD form on a savings account. Of course, there are

ideologically driven, more DGN people would like to move everything on-chain, right? So the majority of the assets are likely on hardware wallet. And I think that's a good security choice to do. For hot wallets like us, I think that we're in a better position to be a good cash wallet, that you don't put all your life savings on it. But you use it to transact. But you use it on a day-to-day basis. Like a wallet in your pocket.

You don't carry your net worth in your pocket. Exactly. And your exposure is limited. And then the majority of your bulk of your assets is in whatever the place that you believe or trust, whether that be in a centralized custody FDIC bank, centralized exchanges, or in hardware wallet. In developing countries where there's no reliable banking infrastructure, then I do find centralized exchanges are trusted even more. I do hear people love Binance in developing countries. Why? That's what I was alluding to, because they've never had a bank.

They don't have a good bank. The bank go rock on them, right? It's actually the Binance ecosystem that gives them a bit more higher confidences. So we see some users are mostly putting their assets on the centralized exchanges rather than on their bank accounts. And again, the decentralized wallet is their cash wallet that they use on the Web3 navigational purposes. Ultimately, I do think that no matter to allow users to connect to centralized exchanges, to connect to banks, or connect to hardware wallet is a kind of experience that we need to create that entry point for people to choose whatever that they feel comfortable to put their savings money ultimately.

We see all these hybrid sort of exchanges where they have the features of a centralized exchange, but you still hold your own keys, all your coins, DEX sort of sex hybrids. Do you think that in the future you'll be able to do everything from the trust wallet? You'll be able to trade on a centralized exchange from the trust wallet, things like that? Is it moving in that direction? Do you think that we'll always have that bifurcation? I think it's possible. But whenever you connect to a different environment, you need to abide by the rule. So, for example, if you enjoy the centralized exchanges selection of tokens or trading fees or the settlement or whatever reasons,

then if you want to join their services, you need to fulfill their obligation. If it's KYC, if it's AML, right? So that is it. But if you don't want that, you can join decentralized DEXs more. And if DEXs doesn't allow KYC, then you have the freedom to use that. I think ultimately it's the service provider needs to set the rules about who is eligible to access my services. And us, ultimately wallet, especially non-custodial wallet,

we're a UI, right? We're user interfaces. So we don't have user's funds, we don't control user's funds, but I can open up the gateway for you to access whatever user services that you want. And you abide by their rules. So you have an agnostic technology that can be used as somebody sees fit.

And your only responsibility is to allow them to secure their assets and to transact. Yeah. Our job is to give them an easy-to-use window and secure to browse whatever that they have on the blockchain. And they can take the actions from there. Is there anything outside of security, the exploits and hacks that we started with that concerns you for the future of either product or just the industry as a whole? Obviously, regulation comes to mind, things like that. But is there anything that you think could be a major impediment for growth? Two things. I think the first thing is for sure

regulations. And specifically with regulations is going to be the privacy concern. I think it's very easy for the regulators to want to regulate the industry through wallet and say that, hey, let's just ask every wallet to KYC the wallet addresses. In the current form of the blockchain setup, I think that would be a disaster. And also, I think regulators doesn't necessarily know, which is our fault. We haven't educated them enough, is that they think, hey, wallet, you can just stop a transaction coming in into this addresses like how banks do it, right? Like you could just stop that transaction if it comes from...

Just block that wire and transfer it. Yeah, if it's from OFAC, sanctioned address, you just block it. But the thing is, it happens on the backend, which is the blockchain. We have no rights to access it to it. But then our job is to, as an industry, to provide actually good solutions to the regulators about how to address their KYC, AML, terrorist financing concern, but not easily fall into how the traditional banking rules can directly apply to us. If we don't push, we couldn't blame the regulators and say that,

hey, you give us the wrong ruling. So we have to preemptively provide this solution? I think solution i think so i think so and i think our lobby we haven't done a good enough of a job for the lobby we have a we have lobby efforts in the industry honestly speaking many of the lobbyists probably also don't know enough about the technical details and we that's why we need the developers, the builders, to think proactively on the solutions together, so that ultimately our industry doesn't get a black swan regulation that just stifles the entire growth. And honestly, the space probably won't die. You will just shift the innovation somewhere else. It'll slow it down, though.

It won't die. It will slow it down. It would't die, but it would be tremendously slow and a lot of people would be blocked. So number one was regulation. What was number two? The number two, specifically to wallet, I'm worried about is that each of the wallet are working in silo to create the own closed ecosystem.

They're interestingly, we're trying to connect to different dApps. Say that, hey, like we have 10 million users, connect to us. And the developers were like, OK, if I have to connect to 50 different wallets, I have to write 50 different codes in order to connect over. I thought that's the wrong way.

Just like if you're connected to Facebook, you need to use their own specific SDK versus everything else. Why couldn't we make the infrastructure standards more open source and standardized, like the TCP IP for wallet? Any dApps, no matter which chains that you're going to build on, and there could be one standard that's very easy for the developers to get plugged into any of the wallets. And the infrastructure to be open source, to be standardized,

can help the industry move faster without creating siloed ecosystems. Meanwhile, different wallets, we can, based on our own ideology and principle, create a product layer differently because that might serve different user bases. That can create a different solution for different purposes.

But that can help all of us to, the industry is still early stage, that can fast track the industries to grow faster. That's the second thing is that how can we not make ourselves to become another closely gated Web2 ecosystem? Otherwise that defeats the purposes of the ether. Yeah, we've had a bad habit of late in our industry of repeating errors of legacy systems in the past that we were supposed to be fighting against. Yes, there are some different considerations to balance, like from the business sense, from the revenue sense.

But I feel that there is a way that we can choose the balance in a more fitting part that kind of fits into the industry to grow faster. It doesn't have to fall into the old way. This is how always business model works. And that's why we use it that way. We can experiment, adapt a little bit. The worst thing is that, okay, this doesn't work. We fall back to the old way. That's okay too. Those are two things. Oh, if I may add one thing more, I think it's just a reality check. Regulations in the space is one thing. Another thing is that we need to be able to not reject the Web2 world, but work better with the Web2 world. When I was talking to Meta, they did tell me that they are not very welcomed when they are talking to some of the crypto

companies. And I was surprised. I would be like, we know that there's no perfect companies, but Meta and Alice, they did a terrific job by connecting people on the social network. There are curses, there are sins, but it's still undeniably that they're adding value to people's life. And now when such a big company with so much traffic that can influence people want to come into the space, why do we reject them? And fundamentally, I think that the real world is still going to run by governments or run

by fiat. If the government still controls the army, controls the power, then instead of having a very idealistic way to think that everything is ultimately going to move on to crypto, then there's no fiat exists. I think it's more realistic to admit that there will be significant part of the world still works on fiat. And how do we work better with the fiat infrastructures better so that we can make the crypto more useful, get plugged into the fiat world better so that the utility of the space grow faster. Yeah, those are probably the three things I think right now in the space are likely to be

the risk to slow us down. Yeah. I love that pragmatic approach and the willingness to work with everybody. It makes so much more sense than just sitting in our own corner and screaming and crying about everything that's happening in the world. I'm not saying that that's not right either, because I think everyone comes from a different point. There are definitely going to be products that their ideology and philosophy is to serve a more Web3D gen way. And I think that's great. That's beautiful that they have something to stand up for. But at least for a trust warrior like us, our mission is to help. If we wanted to help onboarding the masses into the crypto, then we have to adapt to the masses.

Absolutely. Well, I'm really looking forward to seeing what you guys build in the future, both as just someone in the industry and someone who's actually using the wallet on a very regular basis. So thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me.