The Wolf Of All Streets - Why THIS Crypto Is About To Skyrocket With Dana White On Board l Sunny Lu, VeChain

Episode Date: April 27, 2025

In this episode of The Wolf Of All Streets, we sit down with Sunny Lu, CEO of VeChain, to dive into how crypto and real-world sustainability are finally coming together. We talk about the UFC partnership, Dana White joining VeChain, and how blockchain can drive real-world action instead of hype. Join us as we explore why real utility is the future—and why now is the moment we must build it. Sunny Lu: https://x.com/sunshinelu24 ►► JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER, DELIVERED EVERY WEEKDAY! 👉https://thewolfden.substack.com/ ►► Arch Public Unleash algorithmic trading. Discover how algorithms used by hedge-funds are now accessible to traders looking for unparalleled insights and opportunities! 👉https://archpublic.com/ ►►TRADING ALPHA READY TO TRADE LIKE THE PROS? THE BEST TRADERS IN CRYPTO ARE RELYING ON THESE INDICATORS TO MAKE TRADES. Use code '10OFF' for a 10% discount. 👉https://tradingalpha.io/?via=scottmelker Follow Scott Melker: Twitter: https://x.com/scottmelker Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.com/ Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe Apple podcast: https://apple.co/3FASB2c #VeChain #Crypto #UFC Timestamps: 0:00 Intro & UFC Vibes 1:37 UFC x VeChain Partnership Explained 3:58 Dana White’s Full Support Revealed 6:12 The Mission: Mass Adoption Through Real Utility 8:58 Sustainability Done Right 12:16 Incentivizing Good Behavior With Crypto 17:10 What Is VebetterDAO And How It Works 22:01 VeChain’s Real-World Applications And Partnerships 28:22 The Problem With Today’s Crypto Market 34:21 Product First: The Key To 1 Billion Users 40:07 Why Crypto Must Seize This Critical Moment 46:41 AI + Blockchain: The Future Of VeChain 54:55 How VeChain Plans To Reach 1 Billion Users 1:02:20 Massive UFC Activations And Giveaways 1:07:09 Final Thoughts: Building A Better World With Crypto The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own and should in no way be interpreted as financial advice. This video was created for entertainment. Every investment and trading move involves risk. You should conduct your own research when making a decision. I am not a financial advisor. Nothing contained in this video constitutes or shall be construed as an offering of financial instruments or as investment advice or recommendations of an investment strategy or whether or not to "Buy," "Sell," or "Hold" an investment.

A couple of years ago, when I go to your show, by the way, great show guys, the best show. Unbelievable, you're chasing the mail, thank you. Where's the money goes? Right, where's the money goes? Featuring glasses coming soon. Yeah, why not? Do it. We're gonna fully love each other.

Every crypto cycle, we talk about mainstream adoption and the path to a billion users. Many of us have been a bit disappointment at the lack of utility or at least interest in the real utility of our industry. But every time I sit down with Sunny Liu from VeChain, he convinces me that he finally has the way to bring a billion people into crypto. We're gonna talk about it now,

and also, of course, talk about it now and also of course talk about their amazing partnership with the UFC. So this is my first recording in front of a UFC background, UFC 314, the official press space, your hand is rubbing, we're Dana White's hand. Oh yeah, that's his part. It was just rubbing. We've got the t-shirts, UFC V-chain. Tell me about the partnership and what we're doing here. Well, firstly, that's also my first time to do this kind of, you know, on this stage.

Like you said, this is a day in a spot. Yeah, we start with the UFC partnership like three years ago, since day one. Honestly, I was not so into UFC at the time, but I did my research. All of the statistics, the followers, they have a really growing, super fast growing expansion globally, and also pretty matching our strategy in terms of marquee expansion as well. Keep the US as a home man territory, and then starting to take over the European countries like Paris, you know, different type of places and then start to just right before starting expand

to Asia as well. So I remember my first official UFC fight I've been going to is actually was in Singapore. So it's getting better, better after three years, I would say. It's more than just like only for sponsorship or exposure. Those are grating part. That's really great. But also, Dana getting to know more and more about us. Basically, he likes what we're doing. Even he doesn't know anything about crypto.

Even still, a few weeks weeks ago he told me like Sonny I really don't know that shit but I really like what you guys doing and he started to put himself like really into our course and you know helping us for more collaboration like yesterday we did the full ocean that's basically Dana's work and also Even try to expand our assets into more possible categories powerslap we we just been a Title sponsorship and also we are looking at possibly

expanded to even PBR WWE WWE, all of the stuff. Actually, next week or in two weeks, April 24th start the Kansas City Takeover. Three fights, five days, Vechain gonna be all over the place. I would say the communication assets, global fans outrage until the business cases, we're also working on a very exciting project with Dana's help as well. It should be coming up in one month or two,

maybe later on. So he's, we got the full support, let's put it this way. Or according to Dana's words, is brother, I'm go all in for you guys. But he's been all in for you guys for a while and now it's official. Well, yeah, well. We're announcing when this comes, but he's been all in for you guys for a while and now it's official. Well, yeah Well, we're announcing when this comes out that he's officially an advisor

Yes, yes, and that's not something that he would take lightly and I met him yesterday and discuss this with him Obviously he gets a thousand of these things a day. Oh, yeah He can literally work with anyone in the world any government any person He's one of the biggest names now hundred percent in the planet and he's chosen to be an advisor with you, even without understanding the crypto side. No, I mean he doesn't understand the crypto side but he really likes what we're doing. I think that's a very important stuff but you're right actually for sure people like Dana Y got that kind of inquiries or requests you know all the time right and other than I think a few months ago, he just announced like he'd

be joined a board of Meta. And we're just the next one. What I find interesting is that crypto companies are sponsoring everything now. Right. Right. But that means you could have put your money basically anywhere. Right. You could have gone to the Formula One route like anyone else or all of these. But you chose UFC, which I would say is not necessarily a crypto native audience in any way, shape or form.

So when you tell me Dana doesn't really understand crypto, but he understands what you're doing, I've always argued that mainstream adoption only comes when people don't know it's crypto. Yeah, well, that's true. They're just using something that they wanna use for the right reasons. And I don't know it's crypto. Yeah, well, that's true. They're just using something that they want to use for the right reasons. And I don't know how my iPhone works. I don't know how email works, but I use them every single day.

So was that part of the thinking is to go to that mainstream audience with something? Well, 100%. Well, we actually, I think we had that kind of similar conversation a couple of years ago when I go to your show. By the way, great show, guys. The best show. Unbelievable. Check's in the mail, thank you.

But let's say that most of the barrier we have been talking about is how to get people to use crypto, to use blockchain technology, or take the benefits out of any kind of blockchain applications in the real life utilities that's a major challenge I would say and I think Dana and also the UFC represents a theme or proof record successfully they are able to convert something like pretty niche, but into the global phenomena. Right?

UFC took 20 years, turned out to be from a $2 million, a small investment, to be today's giant mega sports across the whole world. Actually, right now, Dana even start to meet with those prime ministers Presidents it's it's you know using his own influential power to help Not only America actually to bring the world more peaceful environment You know that that's showing the the greatest Influences right so for what we're trying to do, we always keep our main theme or our mission as a mass adoption. What does it mean for mass adoption? You don't have to be, or you don't need to be a crypto user.

Like we talk about all of the barriers like memorize the private keys and, you know, back up all of this stuff. My grandma's not getting a metamask. Exactly. Well, actually, I told my product managers saying, I need you to create a product. My mom, a 70-years-old lady, only speaks Chinese, not English even, and if she can start to use some of the application, that means your job is done. So let's say, UFC to us, it represents 200 million followers across the whole world,

1 billion views, 1 billion impressions among all of the countries. It doesn't matter like the language difference or culture difference. I think the next UFC fire is going to be even Azerbaijan, like the place I only read in my textbook when I was a kid. So basically UFC is taking over everywhere, outreaching people around the whole world. And it's perfect for us because we wanted to drive our applications, our utilities to everyone in the world.

And also Dana, you know, when I discussed our mission with Dana, you know, we talk about sustainability as our goal, right? Dana actually not really, as most people are saying over the internet, including Joe Rogan, including Elon Musk, or even Trump, they're not really against sustainability per se. They actually know this is the right thing to do. But what they're really against is a way of doing sustainability. Right? Like all of the...

They made it corporate. Yeah, corporate, weaponized, greenwashed. Yeah, those are cases that are really, like, I would say it's dirty play, right, for own interests, for own profits. Yeah, those are cases that are really like, I would say it's dirty play, right? For own interest, for own profits. But eventually, if we think about sustainability, maintain the sustainable world, and for sustainable development

and using the recycled energies, those are things that are real. Like, we should take care of that. But just how to do that, that makes lots of difference. So when I show the vBetterDollar ecosystem and some of the applications like Mark Char, EVN, they don't like that. Then I just feel like, okay, and he's a super smart guy. And instantly he called out, he called out the key difference. He said, well, I like that. It's not any like previous ESG bullshit. It's a bottom up strategy, other than the, you know, top down strategy, right?

Basically involving the individuals, doing the right actions, doing better on the daily basis. And you know, the platform will take over, let's say helping everyone monetize the value created. And it's very, I would say it's very web-free and it also has a bright future. That's what Dana likes. When I was talking to him yesterday, I said,

I don't think there's any person, Republican, Democrat, alien anywhere who wants to swim with plastic in the ocean. Truth. Truth. We're cleaning up an island, like who wants to go to a beautiful deserted island and find trash? Nobody.

Nobody. That's not controversial. Well, that's actually, let's say, I tried to explain. And Dana gets that. The way we're doing things, it's not try to educate people, like, oh, what should you do? There are tons of that kind of sessions in the last decades. We got educated saying, oh, don't use plastic.

Plastic is going to flood into the ocean, kill the marine animals, or try to reduce the waste of the paper cups, all of that stuff, or try to use EV other than the petroleum cars or big-ass engine cars. We had that kind of education all the time, but the result we see is not that much. The one thing we learned is if you incentivize people to do something good, that will be much, much more effective and eventually drive people to grow a positive behavior, eventually. Like what I'm doing, you know,

I started to use a mug shot like almost a year ago, and now I carry my mug like everywhere I go. And I even feel bad if I forgot my mug, you know, in the hotel, in my home. And I look at the, when I go to the coffee shop, I was like, oh, what should I order? I didn't have didn't have my mug you know the paper cup I feel like so bad I feel guilty about that that's a trick that's a trick so incentivize people to do the right thing and I think even even Elon Musk is doing the same you know I

had a friend well it's a very controversial friend he actually after the Trump's election, he kind of like, oh, I'm Democrats. I hate about you guys. He sold out his Tesla. A lot of people did that. Yeah, a lot of people did that, right? And he just tried to prevent his perspective about this.

A few months later, he came back. He's saying like, no, I cannot afford or, you know, I cannot stay in the other cars. I like my Tesla. I miss my Tesla. I want to get back to my Tesla. So which I'm saying like the Tesla as an EV or any other EV brands, you know, they're building a nice car. They're building a nice functionality, nice features. Then people like that. And then you're using that EV,

which while you're doing sustainability, as an effort to make the world a better place. Other than, I just educate you, I even try to punish you if you don't do the right thing. I think the infantivized model is so much more effective. That's what we're doing, actually. Essentially, that model's been proven with, like, whoop bands and aura rings and people tracking their health.

Yeah. I know so many people, and I said, why do you do that? Like, why do you care how many steps you take? Because they start to gamify it and almost feel accountable and then get healthier as a result. I need one because I'm the worst sleeper in the world and everyone I know who's a terrible sleeper is like, well, now I track my sleep and I sleep better. Oh, exactly.

Right? So you get, firstly, you get, we call it a positive feedback from those collections, from those data. And you know, oh, I improved a bit comparing yesterday, comparing last week. You feel inspired, you feel motivated, you're going to continue to do that. So that's exactly what I'm trying to say. You know, incentivize people to do things is much better than just educate only or,

you know, even punish for not doing that. Because eventually, most of the sustainable cases cases you got to put some efforts. There are some convenience you have to sacrifice. Yeah, always. Right. So like I said to the mugshot, you need to carry the mug always with your bag or with yourself. And then that's a convenience you got to sacrifice.

But you feel better because you are cutting the waste of the paper cup. Remember, as a humankind, we kind of consume 160 billion or 200 billion paper cups every year. It's coming from the 6.5 million trees. Just think about that. So, and it's very, very, let's say, a powerful message and the kind of impacting people's mentality, like, oh, I'm not just

doing that for a small incentive, a few tokens I can receive, but also I'm saving trees. I got a friend, not crypto guy at all, and I introduced her like, okay, you can use a Mark Shaw. She said, oh, that's nice. I can get to 10 cents back, 20 cents back. That's nice. I can get 10 cents back, 20 cents back. That's great. But eventually, a few weeks later, when I meet her again,

and we're kinda toast with a coffee, well, it's quite a usual thing in Italy, right? I live in Milan. And she's like, hey, Sonny, let's save the trees. That's great. Right, she didn't say make money. Yeah, that's great, right? That's even better than just making money.

So the incentive is not only about the financial incentive, but also like, you know, your emotional, you feel accomplished something, you feel part of the big cause to eventually make the world a better place, and you are proud of that stuff. I think it gives you an excuse to do the right thing that you wanted to do anyways and not be lazy. It's just that one little push. One little push, exactly, exactly. But that part, if you don't have anything,

and that's a very hard move. You might do it like, okay, if I do it one day, two days, three days in a row, but it's hard to become a behavior, right? Remember the 21 days rule, you gotta do something, 21 days in a row then becomes your behavior. That's what we, better at all, try to do, to incentivize everybody to make the positive behavior

or actions become your thing, become your natural behavior, natural habits. And then you will do it every day. And when we call more people to join, and the collective results just immense, I would say. I don't want to take for granted that people know what VBetterDAO is and what the app is. So give the quick explainer on exactly how this actually works and what you've built.

Sure. Well, VBetterDAO is firstly, vbetter.com and vBetterDao.org is our website. So you can go to the website to check for everything. And vBetterDao is a platform to foster different type of, we call it, X2 earn applications. And then people, let's say to incentivize individual people to do better action, make a better choice on daily basis and you get rewards in crypto right away. So basically you do a little bit effort, you have a free

crypto to incentivize yourself and you know drive for the real impacts to the whole world. Is it presented like a rewards program? Well, it's a- Airline miles or credit card miles or Starbucks points. That's a very good example, but it's bigger because there is no barriers, right? Think about that. You get the loyalty points from Starbucks or Airline miles,

you only can use in that company or in the premises of that company. Whatever their products, their services, upgrade your flights, those types of things. But that reward program actually becomes an ecosystem and the multiple different user scenarios are kind of connected to each other. Imagine that. You go to a coffee shop. You order coffee with your recycle mug. connected to each other. Imagine that you go to a coffee shop, you order a

coffee with your recycle mug, you earn the free token, and then next thing you go to the Whole Foods and you can use that token to pay for, by the way we just launched a Y-Label Stalag Pay solution, so basically you can top the better token along with VAT and VSOR to pay for anything you want. So basically, it's a crypto credit card. But we name it as a better card. To incentivize people, those spending the money by spending, you spending, is actually coming from your bad actions. So it's pretty cool.

We just launched it yesterday. So the user could go to the next thing to pay for anything you want with your better car, better rewards. And then based on what you buy and how you buy, let's say you can buy fruits, vegetables, you can pay cashless, you can use a recycle bag other than the paper or even plastic bag, then you get more rewards. And next thing you go to the Tesla Supercharge, you charge your car and you can pay for that. And also you gain more rewards. So basically, eventually the user kind of stay in this ecosystem, just from one thing to another.

That's the ecosystem we try to build. Can the rewards eventually be enough that it is completely self-sustaining? You can go get $20 worth of groceries with whatever you've good behavior in New York. You've got to put quite a big effort for sure. But that's that's our goal. That's our goal. We well, once we have actually we are already in the right position. Now better just getting more than a million users in the last 10 months.

That's crazy. And I only say I'm very proud of that. Even though comparing with Web2, comparing with Web2, 1 million is nothing, right? But in the Web3 world, a real-life application, 1 million user, I'm really proud of that. In the Web3 world. Yeah, Web3 world.

One user is impressive. Yeah, well, we set up that as a milestone. 1 million as as a milestone. One million as the first milestone. We just achieved that. But imagine we have five million users, 10 million users, 20 million users. Then we will be able to connect those enterprises also to somehow injecting the value into the ecosystem.

And people basically can do the better actions, make a better choice, like you said, self-sufficient about what you do. Sure, I mean somebody will still be lazy, somebody still have lots of other stuff to do, but at least we can encourage people eventually to be able to get rewarded and pay for your living, I'm not saying 100%, but even cover 20%, 50%, that's great. By your choice. This isn't the first iteration of VeChain. No, no.

We keep iterating, right? But we never change the course. Right. But it's interesting because now it's a mainstream use case for the individual to earn your token by doing the right thing. But you've had utility for a very, very long time. I remember in previous cycles, there were these passionate people that I talked to that had V chain names, Ven, Ven Warrior, and all these things. But because you were literally working with the biggest companies in the world on supply chain management, you've had utility for all of these years while everybody else is seemingly coming and going.

Yeah. Well, that's true. Actually, it's by different stages. I usually call VeChain has, VeChain has three white paper journeys. The first, I think we may be the only one in the crypto world, keep iterating our white paper. And the first white paper was initialized in 2017 for launching the ITO, tell people what kind of platform we want to build. And then 2019, we released the second version of White Paper. So basically, it's focused on the enterprise adoption. Like you said, all of the supply chain cases, food safety platform for Walmart China,

a bunch of the luxury brands starting from Givenchy, sustainability project for H&M and BYD, even some of the directly like yesterday we're doing the 4Ocean project, actually we have a receipt for Ocean Cleanup starting from 2021 or 2022. So those are, let's say we call it enterprise adoption, but also we find, let's say, a good part and also a bad part. The good part is, you know, most of the enterprise has a common consensus or common direction. Think about what should I do with the new technology or what is the most of the challenge I'm encountering and looking for some new technology can bring the new solution.

Actually it is sustainability areas. It's missing, you know, there is a gap between enterprise and the users. Like enterprise feels like I have done so much. I put the money into that. I, you know, even motivate my employees to do something good for the world. But why do my retail users or my retail clients not really buy it? And the retail clients feel like, what do you really do? I mean, eventually, I only get the resort as an ESG report, which I don't even want to read about it. So that's a huge gap for most of the enterprise.

That's the number one. And number two is, in most of the sustainability cases, individuals kind of missing out. And they even feel bad about the sustainability narrative or feel like, okay, that's green wash, that's weaponized. You know, a very simple reason, because you have to pay extra to be sustainable. If you go to buy some recycled products, your cost is probably higher than the normal stuff you buy. So that's a gap we believe blockchain can solve, crypto can solve. That's a good part from what we're learning from those enterprise applications. But also there is a bad part about those applications

is they're missing a very important feature or element out of the blockchain technology. It's token. Most of the supply chain applications or enterprise applications, they don't have a token in play. Sure, they still pay the transaction fees. But even Walmart China last year, if I remember correctly, they're kind of contributing 300 million transactions

from the business angle, which is a big transaction, big contribution to the V-chain networks. But it's just paying the gas fees by executing the smart contracts to supporting the business goods for the surprising processes, different type of business activities. But that's it. And I would call it incremental improvement, not revolutionary change.

The real blockchain application needs to have a token in play and somehow designed in the future business models or business applications. That's why we released the latest white paper with Boston Consulting Group from 2023, we call it the Web 3.4 Battle. We want to also touch the retail part, the user part, get the user to be involved. So far so good, like I said, the one million users so far.

Then we do have And then we do have expertise and we do have experiences how to engage enterprises. Then the next job to do is put them together. And then we are able to build up some really revolutionary business models. The target is, I think everybody in the crypto world, in my mind, like the last 15 years or 20, 12 years, everybody tried to do the same. How to make not only this individual user, but also the enterprise user to use crypto somehow. Right?

So that's our goal. So eventually, we wanted to put them together, just do the different type of the job. Enterprise has a big resource, big investment, structured, the organization, products, and the individuals can do the efforts, but put them together. I think that's an essential part of the web suite. It's no more just, oh, you have to be an employee for some organization. They can join together to do something. No, that's not a web-stray.

Web-stray is we can have a framework, we can have a consensus, and then everybody just do their own part, and then eventually put together, it's creating huge impacts or huge results. When I think about this, the crypto natives obviously love tokens. But they're not the ones that end up adopting or caring about utility, which I've found a little disheartening. We have Bitcoin and then we have we found out that everything else is basically a big casino.

Yeah. Right. And the interest in everything in the middle has been less than I think. So you have to go to the mainstream. You have to go to the UFC audience and present them something that they don't even know is crypto to get them to actually care. Why do you think that the crypto native audience

hasn't cared as much about utility over the past few years as they used to? I would say that's, for me, as one of the veterans in the crypto world for 12 years, it's kind of a big disappointment for me. That's what I said. It's discerning. It's very disappointing. But also, I think it's even quite like right now, we're kind of in a very critical moment.

I even feel like it's a sense of urgency right now. If crypto world continue like this way, you know, blockchain not going to be like Internet 2.0 per se. It will, like you said, it's going to be just a purely casino. Actually last November, I was in the tie, the institutional events in New York. And I was listening to what Mike Novograss, the founder and the CEO of Galaxy. He said the same thing. When the moderator asked him, like try to ask him something about Mimicoin.

And Mike was saying like, OK, don't get me started. And if next of four or five years, if we're still here talking about a meme coin only, that means no future for this whole industry. But in terms of reason, I would say the simple one could be just money fat. Yeah, we found out that there are a bunch of gamblers trying to make a quick buck. That's the human nature, right? That's a human nature. You cannot rule out that. But also, I think the crypto or the blockchain, even starting from the first use case as Bitcoin,

is so close to money, so close to, let's say, the finance use cases or finance applications. I still call Bitcoin is finance application, one of the finance applications out of the blockchain technology. Because it's so close to money, then we cannot rule out those dark side of the human nature, you know, quick money. Everybody loves a quick money. Everybody loves quick money. If you can just do a little work, but gain a big money out of it,

then everybody wanna just dive into that, right? So eventually, that's why I really disappointed. If the whole market is like that, that means no future or no evolving of the technology, and eventually to the industries, to whatever the applications we're thinking. It makes me wonder if the fact that these tokens that can have incredible utility gain a benefit or whether it's a bad thing that they're openly tradable on the free market Because it ends up that they become speculative Instruments that are generally pretty illiquid. So yeah pretty easy for people to move the price around and the price moving around so much

Yeah doesn't help the underlying use case like what if there was a world where your token is just in that ecosystem But doesn't freely trade to give it It's just a net ecosystem but doesn't freely trade to give it volatile value. I would say it's very dangerous. For short term, sure, fine. Everybody getting excited by the news, by the fluctuation, but eventually, it's just a matter of the time. If there's no utility, then you don't have a reason to be existed. Think about, I like your history.

So if you go back to the internet, you can find a similar pattern, even in the internet. When internet gets started, everybody gets crazy about setting up the website. There are tons amount of website companies, even gold listed. Yahoo, Sohu, AOL, you name it. Are they really, let's say, generating competitive, unique value out of it? No.

We're doing the same thing. Yeah, everybody doing the same thing. Yeah, everybody doing the same thing. Everybody setting up the website. Even the contents in the website is basically the same. Because there was one news and everybody tried to say the same thing. So that's the website. But website, sure, it is a revolutionary change or revolutionary product for the user. But that type of, let's say, period eventually triggered the Internet bubble to explode.

And then after the bubble explodes, people are kind of focused on, okay, is there any new utility, any new value could have coming from internet technology itself, then we see like Amazon becomes the biggest the income is platform, Facebook, you know, taking care of the social media platform. Even today's like TikTok, Instagram, they're even going further, but that means you gotta have value.

You gotta eventually let people feel like I needed to use that. I can live on that. That means you got to have some functionality, some utility. Well, honestly, if it's just purely trading demands, yeah, for now, maybe it's OK. But eventually, you will be replaced. You will be replaced. You will be replaced. Critics always talk about crypto like the internet bubble that you talked about, the late 90s and early 2000s, but they always point out all of the things that failed and

all the problems. I actually think it's a great comparison for the future success of crypto. I say this all the time because of the reason you said. So maybe 99% of it gets washed out and it's complete garbage and it's pets.com and net taxis and all these things. But the 1% that succeeds are the companies that end up changing the entire world. The ultimate winner.

So there will be 10 things in crypto that come out of each of these bubbles and rise to be the... Well, maybe crypto is a new thing, right? Just for 15 years, coming from 2009, a little bit more than 15 years. But actually, we see the similar patterns coming from the internet in the last 30 years, last 40 years. So there is no new thing under the sun, actually.

It's just you've got to follow the natural law, I have to say. And eventually, like I said, I still stick on utility creation, value creation. I don't want to just spend all of the budget just for marketing or just for communication, but kind of missing the critical part, which is back to the product itself. So what I learned, whatever from all of the successful successful giants before Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, those type of guys, product is still the fundamental thing. You got to let people to love to use your product. And then that means your product has a value.

Then it should link back to the valuation of your platform, to a token. You gotta have a demand. If it's just a purely trading, it's not gonna last long. Not gonna last long. No, there's always be something else to replace it. I think 2025 is gonna be a very critical for that kind of change.

So I want to talk about that. Sure. That was what I was going to go back to. I was going to say, literally, a few minutes ago, you said we're at this critical moment, and you just said it again. So I've been saying over and over again is that we have this sort of Goldilocks phase here where all of a sudden, all of the inhibitors, all the obstacles that we've had, namely regulation, legislation, the administration,

the United States, are gone. So we were able to scream from the sidelines this whole time how unfair it is. We have this incredible technology. We're building all of these important things. Get out of our way. Okay, now they're out of our way. Yeah. So talk about of our way. Yeah.

So talk about a critical moment. Exactly. If we can't prove right now that what's being built in crypto is worthwhile, then. Yeah, so the fundamental question now, it's what to be regulated, right? We were crying for regulation support. We're crying for, okay, don't just get in our way. We need support. We need

clarity of the regulations. Okay, now, Mika just launched in Europe, and VAT and Visa will just get confirmed in compliance, which is good. And also to the US, starting from the stable coin regulation, that's great. And what's next? What to be regulated? Or what kind of the products from all of the builders in the crypto world need the support, what kind of support from the regulators? So I think right now we don't have an excuse anymore. We don't say, oh, because of the Biden administration, because of Gary Gansburg. We have no one to blame but ourselves if this doesn't catch some sort of meaningful adoption.

Exactly. That's why I'm saying, I keep saying, I tell everyone the sense of urgency. We're gonna do things right now, because now the ball is in our hands. If we don't have any real utility, real value, real application model to show to the regulators, that's the right thing to do.

And then eventually, we're kind of serving the bullets to our enemies. They will come back saying, see, that's why we don't want to regulate you guys. That's why we call you guys bad players or kind of rock food, all of that stuff. That's why, right? So we're getting a very critical moment. We need to seize the momentum

and focus on building the real utility and show to the regulators, work with the regulators. And what does the regulation eventually do? I mean, I really like applying the first print super rule everywhere. The regulation is really incentivize or motivate the good guys and punish the bad guys. Driving for the innovation, driving for creating the real value out of the new technology. That's it. That's it. But if you, let's say, if the builders in the crypto market

are not really striving for the real utility, real value, to really bring the real application in the real utility, real value, to really bring the real application in the real life, then the regulator has nothing to regulate. So no excuse, guys. I talk to my friends about this all the time. Normie friends, you know, Normie friends, you talked about your Normie friend with the mug. They're Wall Street guys, a lot of them.

They were consultants, they were investment bankers, they were private equity, VC, across the board, like everything. And some of them over the years, I've been able to convince to at least buy some Bitcoin or participate. A lot of them got caught in the NFT craze or doge at the time, even those very smart guys. But when I asked them recently, I said, how are you viewing this industry now that we have some clarity or

we're allowed to do things? Sadly, they still go, well, Bybit got hacked for 1.5 billion ETH, and they don't understand how that happens or what that happens. And they go, and Trump made a mockery of you with his meme coin. Everybody talks about the Trump token. Yeah. Yes, he to some degree has given us our moment, but he also put in a ceiling for people's expectations, I think, of what we are. Yeah, well, especially about that. I mean,

we talk about like, what is the barrier about going to the mainstream, right? And going to the non-crypto people. Sure, there were many infrastructures, many products we need to catch up, but also we cannot let people only hang on the bad news only. Even by nature, bad news spreading faster, that's reality, but also we need to bring more real utilities. I feel like we should get more exciting news like, oh, Mark Shaw just reached to 1 million users. There are 100,000 Tesla drivers using the EV. Nobody talks about utility.

It's not even a part of the narrative anymore. Yeah. Yeah. We try to make it different. We try to turn upside down about this kind of market sentiment. I mean, the current market sentiment, like I said, I'm really disappointed. And also, we should do something different. And we should really start to, firstly, we cannot be alone.

We cannot be the only one to build the real utility application. We should get more people really focused on the exciting good news for the mass adoptions. And also all of the, well I'm sure you, we have been in the multiple different crypto events, it cannot be just like a party place. I don't go anymore. Exactly. I was supposed to be in Paris right now. It's an amazing conference. We were in Paris actually. I announced you in Paris last year when you went on stage. But not that it's an incredible conference, I would go, but I found it, as you were about to say,

I think so repetitive. And it's just basically like an excuse for a bunch of people to get together and have drinks. And the same people moving from one place to another place is always the same people. It's like a traveling party. We need that party to get a lot bigger. Yeah, and also we need to drive more focus on getting everyone excited about, okay, that

technology can really change my life or really can do the positive effects. So I was always making fun with Alex, the CEO from 4ocean yesterday. I think you guys hosting that event, like going to the small island, pick up the trash, and save the marine animals. Even, I don't know if you noticed, in the end, yesterday, there was a dolphin jump out of the ocean surface.

Yeah, and we get crazy about that. I was saying, dolphin say thank you to us. Right? I mean, this type of events, I think it's more meaningful and also more driving people to like, how to use the technology to make the world a better place. So much better just a free boost in the different parties. Yeah, I mean, the more we talk about it,

it feels like most of the things that have been created in crypto are either a cash grab, even if the person doesn't know it's a cash grab, the way that it's structured, the tokenomics, everything kind of a cash grab, but that it's a lot of solutions that are looking for problems.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what you have is actually using the technology to solve something that everyone agrees with. So everybody thinks, as we're going back to the beginning, like sustainability is important. Everybody is on board with incentivizing for it. And this happens to be the perfect technology to do that. But you didn't have to build a technology

to convince people that sustainability matters. Well, yeah. And that's what a lot of people are trying to do, I think. They come up with some sort of Mason idea, it's weird. And then you have a bunch of builders and internet nerds and guys who don't know how to market and they don't know anything about anything else. They don't know how to run a company.

And then they go out to find somebody to use their solution for. You're definitely right, 100%, 200% right. That's tricky. That's a trick we use. Let's say sustainability, you don't need to convince anybody. People are just like, oh yeah, I know that's the right thing to do.

The only thing you need to put the effort is, oh, I might need to sacrifice a little bit convenience. And then if I get compensated by getting a reward, I'm okay. It makes it worth, you're getting paid for that incremental increase in your effort. Yeah, other than like, I pay extra for being sustainable. That kind of doesn't make any sense, right? That part is our core to EDPR. But the difficult part or challenging part, which we're working, is to get everybody,

not necessarily only the crypto guys, are able to use those applications. Like most of the applications, even yesterday we showed the Forge and Cleanify application, you can use Google login. You can use a Google account login. And also the EVN, you basically use a Tesla account to log in the applications.

Well, I really respect and love Tesla. They have open-source, open infrastructure, open interfaces. Sure, you got to pass the audits, you got to pass the authorization. But once they authorize upon the user agreement, you can use the APIs. So right now, you log in the EVM with Tesla account and the car profile just uploaded automatically and every time you charge your car the

charging data automatically goes to smart contract. You don't even need to do anything. Yeah and in that case you don't even need to take a picture of the trash that you picked up. You literally just connect your account.. And imagine we can expand to more enterprise use cases. For example, like when you order in Starbucks or Costco, and if in this sales system to point, OK, you use a Recycled Mark, I will add it in the paper cup, then that data is enough for us. It's more accurate, more authentic,

and then people get rewards about it right away. So what we're trying to do is try to expand more to even, one of my goal is even getting, I call it a wallet, but that's not my, let's say, I want to make this not a wallet, or I want to make it as a sustainable actions added in the wallet. Even though I'm very proud about the VWord as our wallet, it's very easy and friendly one to use,

but I want to make VWord as a sustainability application. I was playing with it again yesterday because I had to, I already had a wallet, but to enter the address to get my UFC tickets. So I was actually playing around with the wallet. It is a huge step forward as far as usability. I think once you're in there, grandma can do it. Not enough.

But you still need a seed phrase. You still need to copy and paste the seed phrase. So we want to make it even going further, the social logins to support the wallet itself. Or forget about the wallet, wallet work on the backstage. You just log in to get a sustainability applications and also getting the AI to help you go through the different type of ecosystem.

The AI could tell you, well, that's my goal. It still take time. That's an actual question. So we keep hearing AI blockchain, AI blockchain, AI blockchain. I was talking to Paolo Arduino from Tether the other day, and we were kind of projecting crypto forward five, 10 years, and he's like, and we always think it's going to go exponential. So to put the greatest off, he's like, yeah, it's going to be a billion robots in 10 years that are powered by AI, and they're going to be transacting with each other in stable coins.

Oh, yeah. He's like on your behalf or independently. And that's what the future of crypto is. Obviously, he says that because he's the CEO of Tether, but that could be your token or another token that they're adapting. But like the the crossover of AI and crypto is coming fast. So how do you account for that? So you're building in an emergence, you're building an emerging technology, trying to convince people to do that

while there's this other completely parallel emerging technology that's going to overtake everything. So now you have to think about that. Well, let's say I, starting from few months ago, I've been talking to several investor friends or VCs. Oh, by the way, you know, I'm also a LP for DRIPPERFONDS, Tim DRIPPER's crypto fund, right? I love that guy.

And so I got that kind of occasions meeting those VC friends. And when we talk about AI as new direction, I think the very interesting new trends coming up is people are not really think about, or money doesn't think about goes to infrastructure AI anymore, like chat GPT, open AI, or Grok, or putting a new, more GPUs, those type of things.

Those are no more startup game. If you think of, even the DeepSec, honestly, I think it's a little bit like narrative, saying like, oh, we use the $5 million to train the model and everything. It's not true. They got tons of GPUs in the past few years. Maybe the last training spent like $5 million, right?

Well, anyway, that's a different story. But let's say the AI infrastructure becomes, let's say, a numbers game or a big players game. You got to think about billions of dollars go there. So forget about those startups. Even the algorithm, now the new trends is go open source, which I think is very, very good. Yeah. So then the money goes, actually they think about going to a real AI application. The application layer.

Application. So if you're, by the way, if you are trying to do an AI company, try to walk on your pitch stack or BP or something, don't say you're an AI company anymore. You should say, I'm doing an AI application to solve what kind of exactly the problem or making some improvement, something like that. So for us, we define, Vechain defines three steps, AI strategy as well, but majorly following these trends, like AI application.

It's using the AI to support or build some application to support the growth of the V-chain ecosystem. So the number one, like the short term vision, is to get the AI as a tooling. Right now, 40% of our engineers are using AI to increase the efficiency and productivity of coding. That's great.

That means we are delivering quick and quick. And also, the content creation, you can use multiple different AI tools. So the AI tooling is the first step. And then midterm is using the AI to enable more applications. For example, when you do the mock shot, when you take a photo, who is doing the verification? AI is doing the verification. It's not only about the photo, also considering, like, OK,

where you are, GPS data, which Starbucks, basically, you're selecting the data from the Google Maps, or the receipts is matching, the timestamps is matching. So all of the different type of verification data, AI is processing that. For sure, it's a constant battle between the verification and also the farmers. There are so many farmers.

But so far, even for Markshaw, based on our internal investigation, it's only 3%, 4% of farmer situation. Right. But it's interesting because it goes back to what we were talking about before. You're using AI to better your product, not... Yeah.

So it's a... You have a problem. Not a problem, but let's say a problem. Something that can be improved in your business and you're using it as a solution. Yeah, of course. Not a solution in search of a problem. No, no, no. Right? You're integrating it in a way that improves your core business without fully pivoting to

it or trying to reinvent the wheel. Yeah. So basically, the AI is using almost every actual application. We even wanted to create some kind of standard format to even help community builders saying, like, okay, that's what we learned. That's what we do. Even we wanted to help them to negotiate with the AI providers. Like, okay, don't everybody spend $100 here, $200 here.

Let's group together. And we can share the kind of subscriptions to enable more actual applications. So that's a midterm. But long term, we want to make real AI agent inside of Vechain ecosystem. So basically, you can, let's say, well, you know we have a mascot. We'll definitely get all the apps to talk to each other. But yeah, yeah.

So you remember we have a mascot, the Beemo guy, the little robot, right? And basically, when you talk to the BetterDow ecosystem, talk to Bimo, ask for suggestions, ask for helps. Like, you can ask him, for example, you say, okay, help me to swap, you know, 100 VAT to how many better tokens and talk to my credit card so I can pay for my coffee. And then you just say that. Yeah.

Maybe later on you can use a meta glass to just say it. And then they would do the job. And then when you arrive in a coffee shop, boom, you start to pay for it. Yeah. Or ask it a question and say, hey, I'm taking a picture of this trash. Is there another way that I can get incentivized?

Is there another way I can earn money besides the one that I'm doing? Well, that's what I'm wearing the Meta Glass yesterday, right? Yeah. And basically you can just say, hey, Meta. Yeah, hey, Meta, take a photo. Think about that with Markzware, with Cleanify, just ease the user journey, for sure. It will require the integration with Meta later on. Yeah. But I think why not? Featuring glasses coming soon. No, no. I knew you're a consumer product guy, man.

You're LVMH. No, no. We're not going to do it about ourselves. But why not collaborate with others to leverage, to collaborate? But also, think about there is even more. You know we're launching the Vechain Renaissance with the tokenomics upgrades.

So you can talk to the BMO saying, OK, I have a 5 million VAT. What should I do? Yeah. Right? Now what? And then we say, oh, you can go to a mint, one dedicated NFT. You can choose what kind of validator

and what is a projected returns. I can see in the next 30 days or 60 days, something like that. So the AI basically, I would say again, AI application to ease and help the user journey and play even more or more convenience to do the real thing, use the real application and make the ecosystem grow bigger and bigger.

So a million users are incredible, but I need a really good clickbait title, and it's got to have a huge number in it. So now I'm going to say, how do we get to a billion users? And I've been asking, I probably asked you this, and we sat down and said, I've asked you this probably every time you've done an interview. Well, that's my goal.

Right, but how do we get to a billion users? Because everybody has an answer, and we're gonna do this and that and that, but you know, nothing's caught fire yet besides stable coins. I think we'll have a billion people using stable coins in the next few years. Yeah, I would say number one is the product, product, product.

You gotta keep building your product. Whatever we talk about, you about, the social logging, the payment solution, even the AI agent to make people's user journey even more smooth, more friendly, product, product, product, that's always number one focus. So we've got to keep iterating the product. That's what I keep saying to my team.

We can start quick, but we should iterate all the way up. So we're basically reviewing with the technical team and product team. Sometimes once a week, some aspects, like twice a week or even once a month maximum. I usually ask that. I use the same trick as Elon Musk is saying. I always ask him, OK, what's new this week?

What's going to do? What's new in the roadmap for for next two months or one quarter? Something like that. So keep iterating your product and focus on the user-friendly features for non-crypto users. That's definitely massive. You cannot just focus on crypto user only. You're never going to reach 1 billion. If we reach 1 billion, then everybody is a crypto user.

I'm 100% convinced after our conversations, any project that's focused on pleasing people who already understand crypto is going to zero. But that's what we've done for all these years. And like I said, they just ended up dumping meme coins on each other on Pumped Out Fund. Crypto people don't really deeply care about the utility and the product. But also what I hear is, I know your background because we're friends, but you're a product guy. Yeah, I'm a product guy.

I really enjoy that. But I think that is a massive benefit to your approach because you can actually reach a normal person with what you're building. You come from LVMH, right? Yeah. Again, most people who are in crypto are not approaching it from the user perspective. Yeah. Well, we should.

So I think that's really the problem. I think we need to start ignoring the actual crypto people Who are there to make money and just think about grandma? Exactly exactly. So first of all product right? Yeah, of course and second we still need to have a massive Outreach we still need to do the marketing It's not gonna just happen and then then we have the biggest gang in the world. We have Adana officially joined as official advisor of WeChain and willing to, like I said, he told us to quote his words, I want to go all in to support you guys.

I saw it. Yeah. I know it's not a lie. People with, that's what I said before, like most people get a celebrity endorsement and call it an advisor. No. Right? It's a guy you can put in a STX commercial or something, right? So that's what I said before, most people get a celebrity endorsement and call it an advisor. No. They don't do different.

It's a guy you can put in an FTX commercial or something, right? Yeah. Even yesterday, some guys are saying, hey, Sonny, Dana is being real. What do you mean? He said, oh, I thought he'd just come over to make a pose, take some photo, and that's it. No, he literally cleaned up trash for at least 45 minutes. Yeah. We were sweating by the time we went.

Well, yeah. And also, you see the bag. It's like 10 pounds or 20 pounds of garbage from that. And he's keep doing that. Even when we're talking, he's keep doing that. But I asked him about 4Ocean, and Alex from 4Ocean told me the same thing. They didn't reach out to him for some sort of endorsement.

He literally saw what they were doing years ago and said, you guys are cool, reached out to them blind. Imagine, Dana White calls you one day and says, I like what you're doing and starts introducing them. No money, no nothing to all these people. I mean, you truly have convinced him that this is something that's important that he needs to be a part of

without the monetary incentive. Of course, it's wonderful that you're a sponsor, but they can get money from anyone. Well, I guess Bud Light is back now. We got Bud Light up here, right? But they can take money from anyone. Yeah, and when I talked to Dana, I was like, Dana was like, oh, how can I help you?

I say, well, Dana, I'm an engineer. I'm a product guy, right? And I'm I really suck about the communication or marketing He's the master and he's like, oh, that's my thing. So, okay told me that he said listen He's like I didn't invent UFC. I didn't invent powerslap. It was a bunch of guys in Poland. Oh, yeah he's like what I know how to do is Create the spark and make it absolutely What I know how to do is create the spark and make it absolutely huge. But you guys are now the lead sponsor on PowerSlap.

So I've seen PowerSlap. It was like in my videos before I think it became an official thing. I said this to him. I think maybe it was the wrong terminology. I said it's like a train wreck because you can't look away. I didn't mean to insult him. But no, it's like you know that this is ridiculous. Like it's literally two guys standing there sitting and slapping each other.

But you cannot keep your eyes off. But you've chosen, like, you're gonna be like, we're gonna be the lead sponsors on PowerSlap. So talk to me about that. It's amazing. I respect that guy. I respect you, Dan. If he says it's gonna be the thing,

you say, I'm gonna support it. The same way he's supporting you. Yeah, he proved it. He proved it with the UFC. 20 years ago, UFC is nothing. He proved it, you know with the UFC 20 years ago UFC is nothing and then I say that literally he's they spend two million dollars only for three letters Not even a domain. They don't have a domain by then 20 years ago and also a crap According to Dana is a bunch of crap They have to restart everything from scratch and 20 years later is a 20 billion dollars company

20 billion dollars global have to restart everything from scratch. And 20 years later, it's a $20 billion company. $20 billion global, massive sports league. Something he and I also talked about, but that you'll probably have more insight into. What I find interesting about the partnership or in general about UFC is that it very much mirrors crypto's journey. So I said this to him, and we were talking about it. He was talking to world leaders now. He's going to meet the prime minister of England. He's in China.

I was there. Talking to the ambassadors, right? Yeah, you were there. He was banned in these places. Oh yeah. Not even just there, like he was banned in New York. You know what I mean? So UFC, people forget it was kind of like crypto

going through its regulatory challenges and it's just for scammers or criminals or whatever. UFC had that same journey of being illegitimate and him out there as an ambassador fighting in each jurisdiction for it to be and now he's meeting with Prime Ministers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, he said exactly the same thing when we were in London. But that's crypto. Yeah, that's crypto. Exactly like a crypto. So again, yeah. Actually, you say exactly the same thing when we were in London. But that's crypto. Yeah, that's crypto. Exactly like crypto. So again, the number two, like I said, leverage and also getting the support from Dana, we're just getting so lucky and I'm so confident,

honestly, with Dana's support. Then we're going to outreach anybody in the world. So besides being on the shirt, UFC V-Chain, and the signs everywhere, what activations will you do at UFC events and such to get people to actually download and start using? Oh yeah, many different things. Actually, I was discussing with our mutual friend AJ, we're going to give away Tesla cars. Yeah'm going to give away. I'm going to give away. I mean, besides all of the process, well, you know, VAT and VISO get compliance, right? So there are also some of the challenges in terms of operational, especially in the finance area.

So I say, okay, forget about that. I will do that by myself. And I use my own VAT, use my own VED to incentivize people participating in the different type of sweepstakes. And you could be also including the UFC tickets, money you cannot buy experiences. And usually, we have some kind of mixer for every UFC fight.

So we gather around like 15, 30 community members in that city, wherever UFC goes. And we talk about the V-Chem upgrades, some new products, and getting the feedbacks. So those are activations we have been doing with the UFC for a long time. And now we're expanding to PowerSlap. And also, like I said, starting from the next city, Kansas, Kansas City, we're gonna have PBR and WWE. Professional bull riding.

Yeah, professional bull riding. We're gonna have a VET. You're like the most American dude I've ever met. Drinking beer and riding bulls and fake wrestling. You know, the funny thing is, I didn't know, but I just discovered a couple weeks ago, PBR did one event in New York City. Yeah. In Madison Square Garden.

Yeah. I was like, what? Bull riding is awesome no matter where you go. These things shouldn't be like a left, right, political, red state, blue state thing. Eventually, it's fun, right? People like to have fun. So what? Then, I'll reach into more users,

let them know what we're doing, and encourage them to come to us. And come to our platform, use our application, drive for the user growth as the eventual result, eventual goal. So there's that side of the American populace that probably still in their mind has a sustainability is bullshit attitude. It doesn't matter. ESG and all that, climate change, global warming, we've all seen that become massive political. But in your experience now, working with UFC and trying to get your average normal person

to care, have you had any pushback about sustainability or the crypto side or anything like that? No. Again, most of people know the sustainability is the right thing to do. But instead of just being like a previous way, top-down strategy or weaponized or greenwash those type of concepts, no, take the crap out. No crap. Just do actions. Just do actions. I'm not trying to educate you like the earth's going to explode, the temperature is going to up to 100 degrees or whatever, and no one is going to survive. No. I'm not going to

say that. That doesn't resonate. Yeah. I'm just saying like do the small thing. You can't read words. That's it. It's easy. Yeah, it's easy. And the way you do that, like yesterday, in the four ocean cleanup, right? When we do that, I was like,

I really having a mixed feeling. It's, I feel so great, I'm doing this, getting out, beautiful Sunday, sunny day, and also pick up the trash, make the place beautiful island, like even get more clean. I feel good about that. But on the other side I feel like, man, we shouldn't do this as a human kind. Right? All of the trash, all of the garbage. Yeah, the trash shouldn't be there in the first place. The plastic. I wish we could incentivize people not to litter in the first place instead of us having to incentivize to clean it up.

Exactly. That's the next thing to do but also I also reflect a bit if next time I goes to any beach enjoy my vacation I'm not going to do that kind of shit. No. I'm not going to throw the garbage destroy the place. There were boats there was a bro like a popped humongous plastic raft, huge grill, like a rusty old grill, lawn chairs. I mean, people just... And there was lots of the plastics, lots and lots of the plastics. Just imagine, you know, the plastic could be, you know, eaten by the fish and eventually we're going to eat those stuff.

Yeah, we do. That's a microplastic problem. So it's not really by doing that, I just had the impression like that's not propaganda. That's a real shit. And we're not just saving the world, we're saving ourselves. Literally. That's like why Dana likes us. And also that's why Dana wants to support us, and also that's why we believe whatever the PBR, UFC, Paris lab, you know, even WWE, we're getting out there,

we're using a very simple powerful method to tell them do that thing, you get rewards, you're a good guy, and you should get incentivized. That's it. So that's actually let's say Dana's advisories. It's very effective, very strong, very powerful, genius. It's something investors have always said, kiss, KISS, keep it simple. Oh yeah, keep it simple, right? Keep it simple, super simple. So yeah, that's a number two. Product and outreach to massive people. Now we got Adana, be the advisor and helping us to go out there.

I'm so much confident we can get there. And last but not least is keep iterating. Anything not gonna go like only one direction. You always up and downs, right? Like a gunner hype cycle, hype charts, you have up and down. That's fine. But you got to hang in there and keep iterating, keep refreshing what you do, and eventually maintain the same mission as from day one, for mass adoptions. And also, I need your help also. We need to call for sense of urgency

for the entire crypto market. Cut the crap, build the real shit, build the real utility. Otherwise, there is no, I mean, just, if everybody not doing that, or even the majority are not doing that where the money goes Right, where's money goes? The money goes yards the money goes to

Beach calls or goes to luxury stuff. No, we need the money continue to build it application drive the user adoption That's how that's actually exactly what the internet has done But internet has been doing like this. One side is money keep doing, keep coming to the market and helping the company grow. And then the builders need to build real stuff. Attractive money comes and continue to build, continue to scale up.

And crypto need that. And I've been really frustrated and disillusioned with the industry. This is like the shot of inspiration that I needed because people forget that there are exceptionally important things being built. I'm convinced you're gonna get to a billion. Yeah, thank you so much.

So where can everybody actually, before I let you go, since we talked about it, what's the best way for people to go download the apps, start participating, actually start earning rewards? Oh, vchain.org, that's our website. And also follow the official account of vchain on Twitter, you get the most updates in time. Sunny, amazing man, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

And I can't wait to go to the fight. Oh yeah, that's not fun. He got me my tickets, so I have to say how awesome he is.