The Wolf Of All Streets - Will Institutions Finally Adopt Crypto In 2023? | Robert Alcorn, Clearpool

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

►► Sponsored by PRIME XBT! Sign up for a new trading account using the link below & receive up to a $7,000 deposit bonus with “wolfofallstreets” promo code. https://u.primexbt.com/WolfOfAllStreets ►► JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen Follow Scott Melker: Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe Apple podcast: https://apple.co/3FASB2c #Bitcoin #Crypto #trading Timestamps: 0:00 Intro 3:30 Status of institutional adoption 7:30 Regulation 10:30 Unsecured loans 15:40 Default scenario 18:36 Risk of contagion 20:50 Why borrow crypto? 26:50 Crypto in 2023 29:30 Did contagion change the long-term view? 32:11 Bear market advantage 34:05 New product by Clearpool 34:36 Wrap up The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own and should in no way be interpreted as financial advice. This video was created for entertainment. Every investment and trading move involves risk. You should conduct your own research when making a decision. I am not a financial advisor. Nothing contained in this video constitutes or shall be construed as an offering of financial instruments or as investment advice or recommendations of an investment strategy or whether or not to "Buy," "Sell," or "Hold" an investment.

One of the biggest narratives over the last few years for crypto has been institutional adoption. It's sort of funny to think back to 2017 and 2018 when we screamed the institutions are coming, but back then didn't even have custodial solutions for them, for their assets. And it's laughable to think about the idea that maybe Tesla would have bought Bitcoin in 2017 and put it on a ledger or hardware wallet. But I think now the infrastructure is available for institutions to adopt crypto on a massive level. And we really started to see that in 2022 with the black rocks of the world coming in. JP Morgan, even as Jamie Diamond calls it rat poison and says that it's not an investable asset and that it's trash. Well, his company is doing something completely different. There's no doubt that the institutions are here. The question then becomes, well, we have more institutions in 2023. And I guess, do we actually want them? Or did we get exactly

what we asked for, which was the institutions to come and to effectively take over the asset class? I've got an incredible guest today. I've got Rob from Clearpool. We're going to discuss this and everything that they're doing as well and what he's seeing on the institutional side. You guys don't want to miss this. Let's go. What is up, i'm scott melker also known as the wolf of all streets before we get started please subscribe to the channel and go ahead and hit that like button as you guys noticed on the ticker and up in the corner sponsored by prime x, if you're looking for a place to trade crypto forex stocks. Basically everything, check it out. Good place to do it. You can see more information down in the description. Institutional adoption. I gave you pretty much the thorough overview there in the initial introduction, but it continues to be a hot topic in the crypto space. And like I said, at this point,

it's one of those things where you have to be careful what you wish for. As I discussed with guests over the last few days, top of the 2017 market was the launch of futures. Top of the next market was the launch of Coinbase's direct listing. After that, the futures ETF, of course, we all wanted a spot ETF. So we've largely seen that every time we get these hints at major institutional adoption, it tends to be a top of the market. There's a lot of conspiracy theories as to why that may be, and I'll let you ponder those on your own, whether it's because they're shorting, whether it's because they want to buy the assets cheaper. I've certainly put forth the idea that Wall Street will largely

own the crypto space after the next year as they raise billions of dollars in funds to buy distressed crypto assets. But I've got an incredible guest today who can give us a lot more insight as to what's happening in the institutional world. It's Robert Alcorn from Clearpool, and they are a lending protocol that focuses largely on institutions. I'm going to go ahead and bring him on now. Rob, how are you, man? Hey, Scott. Thanks for having me. I'm good. So you were obviously listening to everything I said. Maybe give us the, it just was the end of 2022. It's the beginning of 2023. What do you think the status of institutional adoption is right now? Yeah, I think, you know, you have yeah i think um you know you have to

probably define the institution and you have to define what is adoption right so as you mentioned there's a lot of institutions you know already in this space you mentioned a couple of names black rock and um and uh i think he mentioned um jp morgan of course have citadel and Fidelity. Exactly. So all of these guys are already doing something. Is it adoption? I'm not sure. Probably the better question is, will we see mass adoption? But they're definitely here. They're definitely looking at it. And some of them, they're already kind of doing stuff in this space I know that JP Morgan as you mentioned been working on the the project Guardian with the

monetary Authority of Singapore tokenizing assets I think they did a bond deal or even a FX deal so they're doing stuff but but I'm not sure if you'd call it adoption. The rest, you know, we speak to quite a few institutions at Clearpool with a lot of interest in what we're doing, especially on our permissioned side. There are different stages of, you know, of being able to sort of transact in this space. So that can be a regulatory hurdle they're looking to get over. It could be some legal issue, compliance, and they're all at different stages.

The conversations that we're having with a lot of guys is that they were looking at 2023 as being the year that they would be able to really start getting involved, especially from a sort of a lending or a borrowing perspective. So they are here. You know, they're looking at it closely. I think that, you know, like I said, we have to really sort of define the term adoption. But, you know, the one thing I would say is probably recent events haven't helped. We probably have slowed that process down somewhat. So it's fair to say that they're potentially trading it, that they're building some infrastructure to take advantage of people trading it, but perhaps they're not actually using it, which

I guess would be true adoption. Yes, true. I think so. Yeah. I mean, the way we look at it is, you know, we're building something which we'd like them to adopt. You know, it's infrastructure. You know, obviously with Clearpool for lending and borrowing, there's other infrastructure that's being built, you know, that could be used for other things, derivatives and so on. But yeah, we would like to see, you know, more institutional adoption of what we have built because we believe that is, you know is far more efficient and safer and more inclusive. So I think, as I mentioned, there are different stages of where they're at before they'd

be able to participate. We have already had one large financial institution, Jane Street, participating on Clearpool last year. We've got a number of other similar profiles lining up to use one of our products. So we would like to see more adoption. And of course, we already have institutions that are more crypto-native, obviously already using you know these surface see these services um so so we'd like to see them you know to adopt the technology but i think you know um there's probably a few things that need to fall in place um and one of them you know not least of which would be you know the regulatory um question mark which uh you know which which comes up very, very regularly.

Let's talk about the regulatory question mark then. Literally just today, I saw that Coinbase is paying a $100 million fine, $50 million for not doing proper KYC for anti-money laundering, then another $50 million to bolster its compliance program. We're seeing a lot of regulatory activity, but mostly it's been slaps on the wrist, honestly. I mean, even BlockFi received $120 million, I believe, fine at the time. They're not really being punished. They're just paying the fine and sort of moving on. So are you thinking that we'll continue to see this sort of regulation by enforcement and fine, or do you think we'll actually get clarity? And for the institutions you're talking to, how much does clarity matter? Are they in the United States? I mean, we have some clarity in other places.

Just kind of a very big minefield, it seems like. It is. Yeah. And there's different parts to it. I think, you know, the one thing I would say is that I don't think any regulator, including the US, is going to come in and say, right, you know, this is DeFi. You can do this. You can't do that. You know, you've got to get this license. You've got to stay in that lane. I think that that's not what's going to happen. I think it really has to be the other way around. I think the industry really needs to tell the regulators what they want. You know, what do they want them to regulate? Wasn't Sam doing that?

Yeah, that didn't work out too well. Wrong guy. Yeah, but, you know, so I think there has to be, you know, more of a conversation with, you know, from the industry leaders, with regulators on how we think this plays out. Because the regulators, they really don't understand, don't understand what's going on in DeFi. They're probably quite far behind the curve and they're really not in a position to play catch up here and figure it all out and then say, this is how we're going to regulate it.

So I think it has to be the other way around. I think the industry has to be engaged with the regulators and i think the way this this happens is you know um that you build something um you know this solves a problem in in the traditional financial markets um you know we have uh interest from you know these regulated entities to use this uh and we'd like to you know we'd like to open the conversation and discuss how you can help us to regulate this or at least guide us in the beginning for self-regulation. So I think there's just so many different moving parts of this regulatory issue but I think we

shouldn't think that we can just, you know, wait around and say the regulators are going to come and we must be ready for it. I think we have to have that conversation. And I think that's what, you know, we see with, you know, these sort of news stories that you mentioned earlier, you know, whether it's custody, Bank of New York, or, you know, know what fidelity are doing um but they're trying to you know build these products and this infrastructure that you know they can then take to the regulator and and have that conversation i think that's the right way to do it and so you're obviously building in d5 which is hopefully a major differentiation from what we've

seen with the block fives voyagers and celsius's of the world but i've got to imagine that that's been very tough sledding for you guys to some degree i mean clearpool is described as the first decentralized dynamic marketplace for institutional unsecured capital right the the term unsecured capital has to give people uh some fear at this moment right yeah i'm sure i mean so obviously you know clearpool isn't introducing the concept of unsecured loans right this has been around forever um but uh yeah absolutely in this space right now you know this is uh you know there's obviously a lot of talk around this with what's happened um it's worth noting you know clearpool throughout all of the volatility uh this year

we launched in march so shortly after you know shortly after we had the Terra Luna situation, obviously the three arrows collapsed, Voyager, Celsius, and then the crescendo with FTX. And so we've been through a lot. The protocol has really been battle tested, you could say, this year. And it's worked exactly as it was intended to do. It's worked perfectly through all of that. So, you know, the way it works is that we have the borrowers. They're institutional. Of course, we only open this up to institutional borrowers. They have to go through a process to become whitelisted

and get a credit score from a third party to be able to become a borrower. But then they open their own pool. So it's a single borrower pool. So each pool has its own borrower. So when you connect to Clearpool, you see a list of borrowers and then anybody can be a lender. So you can decide who you want to lend to, who you want to avoid. You make that decision. Effectively, you connect with your wallet and you lend stable coins or other assets to these borrowers. So those loaned assets go into the pool and then the borrower can draw down on those assets whenever they want.

When they do that, they're obviously utilizing some of the pool. There's an interest rate and utility curve within each pool and the amount of funds that the borrower is utilizing will determine the interest rate that they pay. Now the curve, you can see if you click on one of the pools on the app, is a very unique shape. So we have a cosine function that we use to develop this curve. And the curve actually incentivizes borrowers to be at 85% utilization. So if you can imagine a scenario where there's $10 million in the pool,

which has been provided by a few hundred different lenders, the borrower would draw down, most likely would draw down 8.5 million. They wanna be at 85% utilization. That's where you find the lowest interest rate on the curve. If you start to creep up above 85%, the curve really starts to sort of increase more steeply up to 100%.

And so this incentivizes the borrowers to be in this kind of low point of the curve, which is around 85%. And what that means is there's theoretically, in normal times, always 15% liquidity remaining in the pool available for lenders to withdraw. So as a lender, you're not locked in, you can withdraw whenever you want. Now of course you'll have the scenario like we've just discussed through all of these events that happened this year where you know there's a rush for liquidity and all of the lenders want to withdraw at the same time. If that happens the pool goes to 99% utilization, it cannot go any higher than that, but then a timer starts and the borrower has five days

To repay into the pool and bring the utilization back below 95% in order to avoid a default And this is exactly what we saw through all of those events And of course, you know the biggest one being FTX and the pools went up to 99% Utilization and borrowers had to start repaying into the pool to allow lenders to withdraw. On Clearpool, within three days of the announcement of FTX's bankruptcy, all but one of the borrowers had repaid their pools and therefore all lenders were able to withdraw all of their liquidity within hours or days of of that announcement and if you contrast that to you know sort of c5 platforms or other you know other d5

protocols where you're locked into term loans or there's a lock-in period for redemption um you know you're you're now exposed to, you know, rising risk. And you're sitting there and receiving the same interest rate that you were at the beginning. Whereas on Clearpool, even if you are locked into a pool because it's remaining at high utilization, the interest rate goes up with it. So it's now paying you, you know, 20 plus percent APR for that liquidity risk. So it's worked really well throughout work. Yeah, I don't think you can compare it to CeFi because in CeFi you had humans making uncollateralized loans. It wasn't a protocol and it wasn't transparent. So obviously, I think we've talked about this on this channel

countless times that DeFi sort of came out as the shining star, assuming you ignored the exploits and hacks. But DeFi hummed along. The protocols did what they were supposed to. People were liquidated in an orderly manner. But what happens if, you know, a majority of the borrowers default at once? You've taken out eight and a half million dollars. A bunch of lenders take the money out. It goes up to 99 percent and you've spent the eight and a half million dollars and have nothing left. How do you top up, you know, in five days if you don't have anything left? Say you took those coins and gambled them with 150x leverage somewhere. Yeah, obviously it can happen. It's an edge case. We haven't had one default yet. So I think it is an edge case to envisage all of the pools defaulting at the same time. But there is a process for a default. So each of those pools has

an insurance account. So we take a percentage of the interest, which is generated on every block in the pool, and that's diverted into the insurance account. So that builds up over time. If the pool hits that 99% utilization, the borrower doesn't repay within five days, and it goes into default, that triggers an auction. So this is all automated by the smart contract. The auction essentially allows whitelisted bidders to bid for the debt of that pool. So let's take the example of $8.5 million. The starting point of that auction would be whatever is in the insurance account. So let's just say there's 5 cents on the dollar equivalent in the insurance account. The auction would run and then at the end of the auction, let's say we get to 25 cents on the dollar.

At that point, then all of the lenders in the pool would take a final vote. So do they want to accept the final bid, take their 25 cents on the dollar, and in doing so they would relinquish their legal rights to pursue the borrower to the winning bidder? Or does the consensus vote to just take their share of the insurance account, which in this example was five cents on the dollar but retain their legal rights to pursue the borrower legally so this is the process that we've developed and designed it has its own set of legal documents which have which have been you know developed by by global law firm in collaboration with clearpool it hasn't been tested yet I said, we've not seen a default,

but we do have that process that would be triggered in the event of a default. And if you had more than one pool defaulting at the same time, it wouldn't really make any difference because each pool has its own insurance account, its own auction process. So there can't be a widespread contagion platform-wide. It would be specific to that pool. And if somebody has chosen to lend, this is not a random retail person who doesn't know where their funds are going.

It's someone who very specifically vetted the borrower through your process and decided that they wanted to lend them money. So on the permissionless pools, which is what we've been talking about so far, anybody can be a lender. So we do have individual lenders in those pools. We also have a lot of institutions. We got up to about 160, 170 million dollars of liquidity provided on the protocol before FTX. And most of that actually was institutional lenders. But effectively, anybody can be a lender into those pools. So we call them permissionless. We do have permissioned product. So this is where we brought in Jane Street last year.

So they basically launched a pool where you had to be also KYC'd and onboarded to be a lender. So the lender in that pool was Block Tower. And this has a fixed uh rate and a fixed 10 hour and a fixed size so we've actually just built a new product for that it's going to be called clearpool prime and it's going to be launching this this quarter and we hope really that we see more of those institutions you know coming into that because this is this gives them that that kyc amL compliant access to decentralize liquidity.

They know that all of the lenders have also been through the KYC process. As a lender, if you're invited to fund a pool in that ecosystem, you will be able to see all of the information on the borrower there'll be a data room where you'll be able to to see um your documentation and financial data to do your your risk analysis so and there'll be a post trade infrastructure as well but this will all be automated on you know non-custodial smart contracts so you know this is this really gives those guys you know that that ability to take a step into this space. And it ticks some of those regulatory boxes, if not all of them, with it being fully KYC and AML compliant.

Here's the inevitable question. Why do people want to borrow crypto at this point? It used to be that obviously people were borrowing because they wanted to short. Yeah, I think, you know, we've definitely seen that demand drop off, you know, since FTX. You know, there's no doubt, you know, that there's less opportunities right now. So, but I think there's also no doubt that that's going to come back. I think, you know, none of us would be here if we didn't think that, you know, that that's going to come back. I think none of us would be here if we didn't think that this is going to take off. So we're in a period of uncertainty right now. There isn't that much demand, especially not for stable coins.

There is demand for other assets like Ether or even Bitcoin. So there is still demand for certain assets, but it's definitely dropped off. I think we're in a situation now where most participants are on the sidelines. And I guess the question is, when does it all start again? And I think there's many things happening in the market right now um which these guys are keeping their eye on um you know not least of which probably what's going on with uh you know with with with with genesis and dcg and whatnot um and you know i'm sure there's there's other events that you know that could materialize on the back of what's already happened. So when that demand comes back, I'm not sure, but what I am sure of is that it will return.

And when it does, whether you're a borrower or a lender, you want to make sure that you are participating on a protocol. If you're a borrower that provides you with that KYC compliant access to DeFi, if you're a borrower that provides you with that, you know, that KYC compliant access to DeFi, if you're a lender, you know, you want to be lending into a protocol where you know that you can access your liquidity, you know, if volatility in the market spikes, and you're not locked in, you know, some lockup period or term loan, you know, lower rates. So yeah, I think the question there really is, you know, how long does this slump continue? Right, but talking about the slump, and I'm not the question there really is, you know, how long does this slump continue? Right. But talking about the slump, and I'm not talking about Clearpool specifically,

just at this point in a, you know, obviously high yield environment with treasuries and bonds, what would compel someone? And I know it will change because we've seen it in the past. But what would compel someone to pay, I'm assuming, to be able to offer yield to the lenders? The interest rates have to be relatively high, right? What are you borrowing Bitcoin, Ethereum or USDC for right now that you can do with it that would be justified by those high loans? We know in the past it was so you could do the cash and carry trade. It was so that you could take advantage of the GBTC premium, right? There's been all these sort of rolling trades for a period of time before it's, I guess, arbed away or that inefficiency disappears, that it was very easy to say, OK, I'll borrow at 15%

because I can make 20 basically as free yield on these trades. Is there just no trades like that right now? And the borrowers will come back when something sort of emerges? I think those opportunities are gone for the time being. And it can be counterintuitive how rates work in DeFi. So you just mentioned it perfectly. When the market is in bull mode, the type of borrowers that we have on Clearpool, they're market makers, they're high frequency traders. The opportunities are there for them to make money and they're happy to borrow, like you

said, at 15, 20% even. And we saw that probably, I guess, at the beginning to the middle part of last year. But then when the market turns, those opportunities disappear. You would expect when there's more volatility in the market that rates would actually go up. It actually is the other way around, right? Because these guys aren't seeing as many opportunities and therefore they don't have the demand for liquidity. So what we're seeing right now is borrowers that we've worked with so far saying the rates

on Clearpool are actually too high for us right now. We'd be comfortable like 2% below our lowest rate. Now, that segues on to how our rates are determined, which is also through a decentralized process. We have Clearpool oracles. These are a number of digital asset institutions who basically vote every two weeks on where they think the interest rates should be for our curves. So we take the sort of average of all of that and use that to set the curves for the following epoch. So basically the rates,

you know, this design is to ensure that, you know know rates kind of move with the market so basically these guys will you know vote for these parameters on where they think rates rates are heading you know at this current point in time we actually saw you know the rates increase of course on the back of ftx and again you know this is intuitively that's what you would expect you know higher rates because the higher volatility but now we have a situation where the borrowers are like well you know we don't want to you know we have no use for the liquidity at that level um so you know it'll be interesting to see how that plays out it's quite a new product for us we launched it um you know maybe two months ago um so i think you know we'll we'll continue to see how how that plays out and how engaged the community is on understanding that dynamic.

And perhaps we start to see the oracles vote in the other direction in order to bring more activity back to the protocol. So yeah, you know, to answer your question, yeah, I think the opportunities have gone for the time being, they will come back. In the meantime, you know, we have to be patient. So what do you think will happen in 2023? Do you think we're talking about a 2024, 2025 situation here with macro, obviously, as the context? Or do you think that we will continue to see increased institutional, let's not call it adoption, let's call it institutional involvement? That's a better term. I'm going to just start saying institutional involvement in the crypto space. Yeah, we use that. Yeah. OK, so I think, yeah, I mean, there's a few things that you know that that could that could happen following

on from what we've already seen right so the the contagion you know is it is it still there so talking about you know sort of you know crypto native um you know we mentioned the the gemini thing you know there's there's all sorts of rumors you know with um concerning usdt for example maybe even is minus you know okay right so hopefully we don't see anything else you know i think you know ideally you know we with we're through with it um and then and then we look you know purely to the to the macro back backdrop which you know is um uncertain as well i think you know there's a crowded opinion that you know we see a recession this year um i think if that happens you know the question then becomes you know what's that going to do uh you know going into a um an election year um that that's going to be very

interesting to see what happens but i think you know on the back of all of that um we probably see a very sideways looking market for the next 12 months. This is, yeah, I think this is, again, it's probably a crowded opinion, but I think it's exactly the way that things will probably play out. So hopefully we don't see any more sort of train wrecks. And we just then have to kind of keep an eye on the macro backdrop and um i'm sure we'll see you know many rallies throughout the years as we usually do on the back of uh whatever it may be uh that comes but um but ultimately i think yeah we might be sitting here a year from now or

certainly um you know um you know 10 11 months from now before the end of the month before the end of the year sorry um and bitcoin may Bitcoin may be still in the sort of range that it's been in for the last few months. YonFest. Yeah. Brutal, but we've seen it. We were here in 2018. 6,000 forever.

Of course, that broke down. But I mean, we were here. But that said, so do the market conditions, let me rephrase that. I know that the market conditions don't affect your view on the asset class or what you're building because we all know that there's bull and bear markets. But have the catalysts for these market conditions, the FTXs, Voyagers, Celsius, all of the contagion, the potential regulatory hammer, has any of that changed your long-term view on the asset class or what's being built not at all um i think you know because of

the way that clearpool has performed through through all of that you know i think you know we're very confident um you know going forward um every time we saw one of these events, of course, we saw a drop in TVL. But after that, we reached a new high after each one. So again, FTX, we've seen a drop in TVL, almost right down to zero. But I'm very confident that we see that grow back up to a new high at some point this year as the activity begins to pick up again. I think for us, the way we look at it is it just really, it just gives us like a more impetus to build, you know,

all of the products that we have in our pipeline. So we want to provide, you know, the lenders on Clearpool more ability to manage risk, you know, more products that they can use to hedge risk. So those things are coming in our roadmap this year. And as well with the Clearpool Prime, this gives the institutions that are still looking to get into this space that ability to take that first step and do it in a compliant manner. So we're just full steam ahead on building all of the products that we had in our roadmap previously.

It's just given us, you know, more, you know, more sort of, more hunger, you know, to go ahead and bring those to the market. And I think, you know, a large part of that is just bringing more sophistication to the space. You know, if you look at, you know, if you want traditional financial institutions to come in and use the infrastructure that we're building, not just as a clear pool, but generally in DeFi, you know, they need to see the same level of sophistication that they have in traditional markets. They need to be able to hedge risk. You know, they have credit departments, they have risk departments, they have credit departments they have risk departments

they have compliance departments all of these guys are telling them you know you've got to stay in this lane and they need to see a level of sophistication the product offering that allows them to be able to do that so you know we're still early d5 is you know what three years old so you know it's um it's it's it's a process and i think um i think you think what we're doing is building what they ultimately need to see to be able to take those steps. everyone for they've been saying it now for six months it's not a meme it's the truth this is the opportunity to sort of get battle tested before inevitably uh we have another bull market everything goes crazy and everyone's just focused on price and and trading it is we've known nothing you know different I mean we we started developing the protocol in in a bull market but we launched in March you know so we've really you know we've we've not actually had the opportunity to see how it would perform in in a in a bull market um but the one good thing is is as you said you know that that's that um that has allowed us to sort of you know really test the

protocol really push it to a lift to its limits or the market has pushed it to its limits of course everything that happens on clearpool is driven by supply and demand. It's a protocol. There's no central intermediary. Everything that happens in those pools, the interest rates, everything is driven by supply and demand. So it's been tested, really has been tested, and it's performed really well. So that much we know.

And I think, in a way, it's been good, as you said, to have launched in this period where it can be battle tested. So where can everybody follow you after this conversation and check out everything that you guys are building? So Clearpool on Twitter is at Clearpool Thin. I'm Rob 8830. And the website is Clearpool.finance and you can access the app from there and go and see all of the pools that have previously been active, the ones that have been we have Discord and Telegram. You can access that through the website course. And you can ask us any questions in there if you have any. I'm just told by the producer that you guys wanted to make a short announcement.

Did I miss something? No, I tried to squeeze it in already. Perfect. I thought so. No, it's Gable Prime. It's basically the new iteration for what we call permission pools previously. So that was the pool that we opened with with Jane Street. So we've built a more sophisticated solution for this. It's going to be called a clear pool prime. And yeah, that's coming in Q1.

Thanks a lot, Scott. Appreciate that. Awesome. So I got to say then I'm hoping then as I think about the 2023, we stop talking about institutional adoption or we make a switch from institutional involvement to actual institutional adoption. Right. And I hope that people start to use Clearpool and other lending protocols to borrow for other reasons than to short the market or to trade. I think that we will see those use cases down the road. Everybody, of course, I will be back tomorrow. We have the normal roundtable on Thursdays. I believe we got Genevieve Rock-Decter, Dave Nage, a few other people. It's going to be awesome. You guys definitely do not want to miss it. It will be at 9.30 a.m. Eastern Standard Time. Rob, once again, thank you so much for joining. Thank you, everybody, for watching. I will see you all tomorrow. Thanks, Rob. Thanks, guys. Bye.