The Wolf Of All Streets - XRP Rally Continues! Which Coin Will Follow Next? | Crypto Town Hall

Episode Date: December 4, 2024

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morning how's everybody doing it is wednesday december 4th 10 22 a.m another installment here of crypto town hall and this show is a hell of a lot more fun when the market is actually bullish we obviously suffered collectively together through years and years of conjecture and what would likely happen and we could have frankly skipped every single show just looked at the four-year cycle and ignored each other entirely. And here we would be six to eight months after the halving with Bitcoin skyrocketing and all coins following as it consolidates. You'll love to see it. David, you have a hot mic, if you could mute that, please. And so here we are. We have the title here, XRP Rally Continues.

It's actually somewhat muted over the past few days. But we do have, when looking at sort of this dinosaur coin rally, as many have dubbed it, we have TRX making a new all-time high. Crazy. I guess that's how Justin's son can buy bananas for $6 million and eat them and can afford whatever medicine he needs to eat a four year old banana and survive. And of course, BNB making a new all time high. We've seen a lot of these older coins going absolutely nuts, which once again, is sort of what you would expect at

this point in the cycle if you had fallen on your head and woken up today. Bitcoin makes a move, large caps and older coins make their move, and then the money starts to trickle down. Lou, how are you looking at this cycle so far? Is it kind of aligned with what I'm saying or you have a different view? Yeah, very much so. I think we're on our way to 200,000, 250,000 Bitcoin. For Bitcoin and everything else is going to follow and the stuff with the higher beta is going to just crush it. And so what are the narratives that you're excited about right now? Obviously, you look at almost every project, you're all over the world, you see everything. What's kind of exciting? We have these new narratives, the DeSci and obviously memes, AI, things like that, that have been bubbling. And then the old ones, gaming, metaverse, DeFi.

What do you think we're going to see sort of cyclically working in the coming months sure i think there are so many things that are going to work for me personally i'm most excited about the intersection of crypto and ai and projects like bit tensor and fetch and uh render you know are three of the you know biggest ones so you think that that's kind of that AI area is where people should be focused. We did see a huge move there earlier in the year. Yeah, and it's still, you know, it's underperformed relative to other sectors.

And I think AI is the biggest thing to happen in the history of the world. And so the combination of AI and crypto, and I think that narrative is just going to become bigger and bigger and bigger all through 2025 and beyond. Fred, how are you looking at it? We're trying to get a bunch more guests up on stage, by the way, as usually we're having the glitch. So the few of us here will have this conversation for now. Well, good morning. I just all of a sudden, suddenly care about getting back into my

Binance account because I can only remember that it was loaded with Tron and I just forgot about it for forever. So that's on the top of my list. But no, I'm feeling great. As many people might know, I'm not a maximalist in any way, shape or form. I like a lot of coins, but I've always been a big believer in XRP. And just when I thought I was the biggest chump ever for continually loading up my bags, my life has been very, very good the last couple of days. You know, I am a little worried because on the, you know, the XRP didn't really get to play in the last cycle because of the lawsuit. But in the first run, it actually ran up after everything had died and cooled off. Bitcoin was

going down from its 17K high. And so this one's a little different this cycle. And, you know, I'm also now, because I'm just like that, a little worried. Is this the run for XRP? Is it really going to keep going up all the way? They do have, or Ripple has, their stable coin coming out. It should either be coming out today or very soon. It's gotten approval from the New York licensing. And I'm starting to realize that I think stable coins, whether you like it or not, are just going to be such a huge factor. And hopefully, that's not where it ends. All the other coins can kind of still play off that. But I think you see it with Tron. Hopefully, there's going to be another leg up for XRP Ledger. But

if you've got a lot of movement of money on stable coins on your network, I think you're going to be very happy with your coin. I mean, Tron, it's kind of a hated rally, but we've been talking about it here for ages. It makes perfect sense. I mean, more than 50% of Tether is on Tron, right? I mean, it doesn't matter what you think of it. That's what people around the world are using to send dollars fast and cheap is TRX. So that should be making a new all-time high. It makes perfect sense. I mean, BNB makes a lot of sense actually to be making new highs considering they had sort

of settled all their issues. We have more regulatory clarity and I think exchange volumes are higher than they've ever been since 2021. I mean, agreed. I just want everybody to realize, because you see a lot of FUD and people attacking other coins that are running when their coin's not working. And the bottom line is, if your network or the network you like is getting used, more and more people are using it, more and more transactions are running through it. That increases the entire value of the ecosystem and your native token is gonna go up. So however it's used, if it's meme-aid, if it's stable coins, if it's whatever, your network goes up, it's gonna be good for the coin. And all you have to look at even for the maxi,

Bitcoin maxis out there is look at the hash rate chart with in compare overlay with the price. As the hash rate goes up, the price goes up. I mean, it's just the way it is. David, what do you think? How are you viewing all this right now? Hey, from our standpoint, things are actually really encouraging because actually post election with all these ecosystems doing as well, you know, they've got money to pay for the things that they should be paying for around doing security work to make sure that they're safe. You know, obviously, when the

market's running like this, and everybody wants to get in, people try to cut a lot of corners, but you know, you don't want to be ending up in a token, or on a wallet or an exchange that gets itself hacked. So you know, from that standpoint, we're close to a number of projects and, you know, Ripple amongst them. Sure. Happy to see our XRP up by 5X in less than a month. But, you know, people got to go back and make sure that they're dotting their I's, crossing their T's and making sure people are going hacked. That's where we are. I'm not saying the time is now. I'm making no financial predictions, but in context of that and what Fred said about the XRP rallies and such I would just like to remind people that it's

never a bad time to take some profit if you feel like you've made a significant amount of money on anything no matter how long you've been holding no matter how passionate of a community there's nothing wrong with even if you're a passionate holder selling 10%, 20%, locking in some gains, making sure you don't round trip and bettering your life. That goes for every asset. It's nonspecific to anything that's pumped so far. But if you're holding something and you made a 5 or 6x, you should be taking something off the table, even if you think it's going to cure cancer.

You just should, in my humble opinion. So Fred, that's not financial advice to you, but hey, man, it wouldn't be the worst thing to get a little of it out if you've ridden a huge pop, right? So hard to follow that advice, Scott. Old markets are harder than bear markets. I've said this repeatedly. We've talked about it here. In a bear market, as depressing and sad as it is, and by the way, I see people raising their hand who are showing as listeners to me. So I guess I'm in a glitch and don't know who's a speaker. So jump in if you guys are speakers. But the bull market is much harder, in my opinion, because you have to actively make decisions. In a bear market, you're just like, I'm not going to

sell now. I'm just going to hold through it. You check the news. You look at your portfolio. You're slightly depressed and move on. But the stress comes with deciding when to sell. It's much harder than deciding when to buy, in my opinion. Dave Weisberger, can you actually speak? You're showing as a listener for me. Yes, I can. Can you hear me?

I'm like, why don't I have three or four guests? Okay, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, look, you know I agree with you as far as profit taking is concerned, as long as it's pursuant to a strategy. I mean, the, the real issue with most people's trading is the lack of discipline. You have an idea, you have a concept, you have price targets, you have, you know, all when, when you make a purchase, then when it gets there, people are like, well, Oh, I guess I should continue to write it. At the end of the day, if you get to your price target, take profit, unless something has changed. So like, for example, when you were talking, you know, Fred mentioned the

Bitcoin hashrate chart. I love that chart, but it doesn't show what he said. Sure, the hashrate is one of the best up into the right charts. The only thing that may look better than that is the S&P post-2009 for the next 10 years, right? You know, into the pandemic, you know, almost complete up into the right with very few pauses. But what you'll notice is if you go back to 2021, the Bitcoin network was one-fifth the size that it is today when it hit 61,

when Bitcoin hit 61,000. So my theory, which was very simple, was Bitcoin would get to that level of euphoria in this run, except the network keeps it growing. So adjust your price targets, understand the same thing on any coin, whether it's XRP, whether it's EGLD, which has gone crazy overnight,

whether it's Tron, et cetera, have a price target, have thoughts of where you're going to be, and then act that way. As long as you have discipline, you're in better shape. And really, that's what it's about. Because if all of a sudden you say, well, it's going to keep going, and then you watch, then that's when you get the Scott Milker round trip. And that's really the one piece of, I won't call that financial advice. I don't need it to be forever linked with my name. Yeah, but you're right.

Scott Belker's idea of other people's round trips. Can we do that one? Instead of me being the one who round trips, I'd like to avoid that. Well, I always give you credit for my favorite Belkerism, which is humans are good at human. It is my favorite. And the round trip to the bear market is the most human thing you can possibly do as a human. There you go. Okay. Yeah.

Besides show your wife your portfolio at the top. That's the other most human thing that you can possibly do. Nobody do that. That's almost as bad as Kramer. Fred already did it. That's why the market had like a one-hour dip a couple weeks ago. It was Fred's fault. Bad Fred.

Bad Fred. I mean, it's almost as bad as Kramer touting, you know, your asset. Yeah. Anyone show, if you show your wife or a loved one, your portfolio, it's time to sell most of it. I got David here. Go ahead, David. Yeah. All we can really say is what hope is not a strategy. I mean, certainly from a treasury standpoint, our manager funds here and you know if you get a 10 15 move take money out of the market or at least roll it into something bigger and better um you know don't be hunting so much on the fringe because you don't know what you're going to step on sorry it's a family podcast this is not a family show you can you can say as

much as you want we refer to like 90 of of the market here is shit coin. So you're safe. Exactly. Thank you. I'm not sure if anyone's speaking. I got kicked completely. I'm going to be made co-host again. Hopefully that will solve it. I don't know how long it's been silent. I have not been here. Can you guys hear me at least? Loud and clear.

Yep. Couldn't hear. How long did you guys just awkwardly remain silent without anyone taking any initiative? I went down and came back up. I did the same as Simon. It was just me not hearing people. So I just sat there.

Yeah, I just want to like it's like a it's study and group think to see, you know, exactly. Every person thought that they were in the glitch and each one detached and nobody wanted to speak. It's really fun. I love spaces. Yeah. If you watch that film Compliance, it's like that. I thought it was like the film Alien. No one could hear you scream in space yeah exactly penthouse did you speak because i tried to ask you a question and then i was

completely gone okay and he doesn't now he doesn't even know that we're here lawyer what's your opinion on whatever we may have been talking about before i got cut off in theory potentially yeah i think it might have been something about like um selling a bit when you make some profits and not and if you show your spouse selling it all somewhere i think i agree with a lot of that but i think that um it's like if you haven't been through a few cycles and been burned in all the possible ways and you just have to imagine that happening so that you can then just be disciplined and take some profits because all the things will happen. Yeah, totally agree.

So is there anyone who has a view on what comes next? Sort of the title here, but obviously we've seen this move. Some say they saw it coming. I think most people are pretty surprised by the coins that have moved and why they've moved so much. Do we see this trickle down into newer, shinier things or just smaller caps as people get bored with the larger ones? Panos, go ahead, if you can hear. You've got your hand up, Panos. Can you hear me?

I love spaces. Dave, go ahead. Yeah, I mean, look, I think that if I were doing the title for today, it would be, you know, the Jurassic Park or the dinosaur rally. But what's, because literally that's, you know, I was on a space yesterday or two days ago, where people talk about Litecoin and why it's primed to, you know, go back to make its all-time high. I asked the question of everyone in the space, okay, so what's going on with the network? Why do you think this is true? What's its use case? And you get, you know, crickets. Then there are other dinosaur coins.

Dave, it's silver. It's silver to Bitcoin's gold. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Simon. By now, I appreciate your sarcasm. I mean, seriously, I mean, it might very well do it. And maybe that's enough. But, you know, there is a lot of teams, however, went into hibernation, not in hibernation, the bear market, kept building.

And you find those projects. And I think there's probably some very good reasons there. And so I think there's a lot of alpha to be made in this kind of a market where there are projects that had a good war chest that put their horns in, that survived, and are actually building things. And they're well below 75, 80% below their all-time high after this rally. And there are a bunch of those. And, you know, you went through them this morning with Chris Scott. There are, you know, you could throw, basically, if you throw a dart at the dartboard of a coin market cap listing of the top, you know, 300 coins, you're going to find, you're going to probably hit one that's well below its all-time high that's had a big move lately. And so really, this is a a token picker market. And yes, it'll probably move more on animal spirits and telegram groups

and touting. But ultimately, the big single secular change, and we've got to keep this in our heads, is over the next two years, not two days, two years, there is the time for actual utility is coming. You will no longer face a regime that is hostile to it. And that matters. And so people are just trying to get ahead of that. And that's why we're seeing what we're seeing. Thanos, if you can give me round three. Yeah, I see your mic going up i'm back i'm back sorry i had bad reception there yeah i mean anyone in here that's been through multiple cycles

will remember that every cycle you see these older coins run these blue chips wherever they people call them that like coins bitcoin cash um and they always typically are the first ones to run out of the altcoins right and then the money moves into smaller caps and then to micro caps and so on so this happens every year i don't think that there's any more innovation happening in things like litecoin or bitcoin cash it's just how the money moves i guess and with the xrp um xlm uh hedron um hedron whatever it's called i think those ones are making these big moves right now because yeah that's it because trump has said that he's going to um remove capital gains tax on US crypto companies, which is XRP, XLM, and the others mentioned. So I think a lot of people are putting their money into those to

try and avoid tax, if that is what Trump actually does. I know he said it, but we don't know. Yeah, he didn't. Just to be clear, it was widely reported. And everybody is saying that he didn't actually say it. It was a Twitter account that reported it. It went wildly viral, but I don't think anyone's actually heard Trump say that he would remove. It was like kind of conjecture. But yes, I do agree that that is a narrative that's compelling here. I think another interesting one, and I was talking to David Young, the head of institutional research at Coinbase this morning about it. And I can say anecdotally, I think there's some truth to this. A lot of people, you know, like Fred, Fred, didn't you say I need to log into Binance? I had some Tron, right? Well, think about people who haven't been around crypto for a long time or seeing it go,

and they log into their Coinbase account. Those people remember XRP, and they remember XLM, and they remember Cardano and all these things that have pumped in previous cycles. And they don't even realize there's a whole new world of crypto. I friends like this who literally just called and were like okay i'm thinking about getting back into crypto like what are we buying cardano like whatever you know just because those were the ones they remembered from the past i think there's a lot of that going on people so it's not new money necessarily but old money that didn't pay attention for years coming back and seeing things they're familiar with pumping and buying them. 100%. I personally had four phone calls just today from friends asking if it's a good time to get into XRP, which is quite concerning. Well, listen, if I had a huge amount of XRP

right now, especially if I had bought it 5x below here i would sell some but that's me that's just my taking profit that's non non-specific to xrp right but like there's a lot there's a lot of top type signals for these tokens that are moving and i do think the liquidity will find a new home that it finds more exciting for sure for sure i mean i i bought xrp and xlm like three years ago after the sec went after them and it dumped i think think I've got XRP at like 20 cents. And I've been holding it for three years. I just left it in my Binance account. And I've recently started trimming it. I've sold about 50% of it.

And if it goes higher, great. But I think most people that have been holding it since back in those days are probably going to start exiting very soon. Yeah. David, go ahead. Yeah. back in those days are probably going to start exiting very soon yeah david go ahead yeah i was just saying you know trading basically is something we look forward to around events we've had the event of the election obviously the run-up in the market after that i was at a meeting last night at the federal reserve bank here in boston boston blockchain association was hosting representative patrick mckenry he is the chair of the House Financial

Services Committee. A lot of discussion here around what's going to happen in the first 100 days of the new Congress. So everything right now in terms of this run up into the end of the year, where obviously we'd see profit taking, I think is going to hinge upon January 21st. And what do we actually see in terms of whether the rubber is going to meet upon January 21st and what do we actually see in terms of whether the rubber is going to meet the road in terms of having positive regulations coming out, positive laws coming out to support the adoption of digital assets in the U.S. It's enough to hear Trump go on, but we know him. He can change his mind. And it's really important to look down at the institution and to see who's actually going to move things forward and how quickly.

Dave, I know that you've talked a lot about, I mean, not only just profit-taking at the end of the year, but you're actually thinking that there's not going to be as much tax loss harvesting this year just because there aren't that many losses. Like, are you still thinking that profit-taking is going to not outweigh that lack of tax loss harvesting? I think that, you know, people may have had some losses from earlier in the year that they'll want to try to offset. So I think, yeah, tax planning is going to be something that comes more into people's minds, especially to the extent that the reporting requirements out of the IRS are starting to tighten up. I mean, it's going to be a bigger deal for 2025 than for 2024. But still, you know, it's a consideration that people bear in mind. And, you know, to the extent that you can take crypto gains and use them to offset losses,

not just in crypto, but elsewhere in terms of your accounts. Yeah, I think it's something to bear in mind. Dave W., I wanted to get your take on that and more of an update of what you're kind of seeing now in December versus a couple of weeks ago when we spoke about that too. Well, I mean, I don't have a whole lot of opinion on tax loss harvesting this year. I think that the next time that we will see an issue will be in the March timeframe when people have to pay capital gains taxes. When you've had a big year, that tends to be the case.

So what you end up being, that's actually a large part of why we had the double top in 21, which got derailed by all the things that we know got derailed by. But the double top was top and there was still leverage. And then people were caught by surprise by those who had to sell assets to pay taxes followed by a rally back to slightly higher all-time highs I would not be remotely surprised to see that trend but we're months away from that and given the news flow that could come out of the new administration it might get dwarf this year as of now what we have is you know a very interesting pattern.

You always hear buy the rumor, sell the news. Well, so we had this particular case. It was 50-50. Polymarket basically had people in crypto position, but this was a buy the rumor, buy the news. And now we're consolidating the news, which, by the way, consolidating news like this is incredibly bullish. And so I don't really see a whole lot of anything other than the hot money who made money in Bitcoin taking some off the table in order to try to do the get rich quick stuff and look for 5Xs and 10Xs instead of a 2X, right? Now, I'm not going to talk about whether that's a good strategy or a bad strategy the data basically says the people who pursue that if you're non-professional don't tend to do well

in the aggregate although obviously there's winners and there's obviously losers but you know from a tax point of view at the end of this year it feels like a non-event because there's not a whole lot of beaten down stuff to talk about it feels like most of the stuff that has been beaten down earlier in the year is now no longer beaten down so i i haven't done a full screen to look at it but i don't think it's going to be a big factor i'm interested uh because you talked about people really just kind of going into these next coins looking for that 5 10x rally um and and also news being priced in but people also kind of going into these next coins, looking for that 5, 10x rally, and also news being priced in, but people also kind of buying the news. And this is a kind of an open question for the panel.

But is XRP really the same case there too? People are really just buying the news. Like, are we fully priced in on XRP? Like, how much higher could this really go? I mean, look, there's 57 billion of them, not 21 million. So, you know, I actually posted a tweet, you know, earlier in the week, kind of, you know, just lambasting some of these idiotic predictions, which would have XRP being worth more than the entire world's financial system. That's the, What is it? 586 is the number that they cling to? Whatever the number is. It doesn't matter. Look, the fact is there's value in a token that's powering a network that has the inside

track to be the bank-approved network for financial transactions. Is it fully pricing in? I've asked people and I've not gotten a good answer. I wish Mikkel were up here because I would love to hear his answer. For some reason, he wasn't invited up to a panel I was on earlier this week. But I would like to understand, what's the value to XRP if it literally replaces SWIFT? Which I think is possible, but certainly not certain. So understanding that value could answer that question, but I am not possible, but certainly not certain. So, you know, understanding that value could answer that question, but I am not the expert to answer that question.

I'm interested to see if we actually do have any XRP bulls in this panel, because I don't like speaking ill of anyone who's not really present. But last time I did a deep dive on XRP, I mean, sure, there's a non-zero chance that it could take over Swift. But as far as I know, the XRP token is not actually used for any settlement. So I find it hard to believe that narrative that if it does take over Swift, that XRP is crucial to cross-border payments. I'm here. I can stand in for Mikkel. I love XRP. There it is. We got our resident XRP defender. I love it, Fred. So, you know what? What I tell everybody, again, I'm not a maximalist. I can tell you, you know, the weaknesses in XRP, but, you know, I also like telling people what the weaknesses are

in Bitcoin. And it's funny to hear people when they just fall apart, when you call out, you know, they love it when you call out the strengths, they hate you when they call it the weaknesses. But the bottom line with, with XRP is that it is one of the fat. Now I'm not fully in the weeds of every single new coin or chain that's come out, you know, especially all the layer twos, but as a layer one XRP is incredibly fast and it's incredibly cheap and it has a very different consensus mechanism than proof of work or proof of stake. And so there are a lot of pros to that. And some people could also point out the cons. It depends on what your viewpoint is and what some of your priorities are, but for moving money, moving transactions and moving a lot of value

almost instantly and incredibly cheap. We're talking like for, you know, they're called drops and those are fractions of XRP. For drops, you can just move enormous amounts of money. And the theory is, is that if you have to move enormous amounts of money, which is, you know, tens of billions, if not trillions of dollars a day, because there are many trillions of dollars a day that move all over the place in various types of asset classes. But then you'd need a higher native token to help facilitate that transaction. And that's why the limit is 100 billion XRP, as opposed, the 21 million cap for Bitcoin. And, you know, and then one of the reasons that Ripple has so much money and is so successful is they have, they control an escrowed

amount of XRP. It started out very high many years ago, which was 55 billion. So 55% of the whole supply that's come down a bit. And they have somewhere between, in that escrow, 33 billion to 36 billion, and that's only released on a set timetable. So, you know, there's good and bad for that too. But, you know, that's kind of... Fred, I just want to interject there with a question. That timetable, my understanding is that without fail, same day, every month, it's 1 billion tokens that they put into the market. Is that correct? Yeah, the smart contract and there's XRP2 LLC is who actually controls that.

They release a billion every month into the market. And what usually happens, though, is nobody buys a billion and so pretty consistently and it changes but pretty consistently 800 million goes back into escrow within 24 hours and that's set on a 55 month timetable i want to believe so uh it's locked up again for another 55 months and so they only they're usually selling about 200 million XRP every month. So what is the mechanism for their selling? How they're selling it via this smart contract? Is it almost like like an auction? Like if there's an OTC deal to be made, then it gets sold. So my understanding and I'm not that deep into XRP is actually that they were just

basically market dumping it on an open exchange. but it sounds like that's not the case. Yeah. I mean, there's some, I mean, I wouldn't say it's dumping. They're definitely trying to sell strategically, but what they do, and a lot of this came out in the lawsuit with the SEC because they had to release some contracts that ended up being publicly known. A lot of it's still wrapped up under steel, so you don't exactly know what they're doing. But what came out publicly is they would sell the XRP to market makers. That was one example. They would sell to other companies, institutions, whomever at a discount. So below the actual market price of what XRP was. And, you know, and sometimes they would just sell it to Ripple and Ripple would buy it as well. So they were then, you know, who knows what they're doing now. They've got a lot of, they've got a lot of things going out all over the place with a lot of different institutions. And, you know, a lot of it's

under lock and key, but it's but they're trying to expand the ecosystem as much as they can. And the thing that you need to know about Ripple is they make a lot of money from XRP. And so they really want XRP to do well and to be a very well-used asset. And so they're not gonna, they're not going to want to dump at any given point, because it only hurts the company.

Simon, I saw that you had your hand up there that seemingly sparked your interest. Maybe you had a comment on that? No, I just wanted to say, you know, everyone knows for disclosure, many, many years ago, I bought shares in Ripple Labs, the company, but I don't own XRP. But that's why Ripple Labs, the company, is valued at a $10 billion valuation pre-IPO. And yet it has access to approximately $36 billion worth of tokens. So that's kind of the arbitrage between, I think the values accruing to the company, the company is the one that owns the vast majority of the tokens in terms of a

single person issuer and all the technology and the technology that works without XRP. Yeah. It's good context there. I didn't actually know that their balance sheet was so high on XRP. I mean, you assume that it's high, but I didn't realize there was that much of a equity versus token value arbitrage there.

David Garrity, you had your hand up. And it is their number one source of revenue is selling tokens. I question the sustainability with that. But hey, if there's money to be made, who am I to act a fool, right? As long as the token holders know, and that's the whole point, right? And that comes into this whole regulatory regime of how do you disclose a token that's so deeply connected to a company when the programmatic sales as per the SEC ruling on the secondary market require no securities level disclosure and I do genuinely think even though that SEC case is over

that whether it's a market- solution or a regulator driven solution how do people actually like you know uh how are people actually able to figure out what the hell they're buying because no one in xrp i think knows what they're buying yeah i just want to jump in real quick go ahead and so what simon said and you you know, I'm a big pro XRP guy, but what Simon said is a hundred percent accurate. You know, that is, there's risks and downsides to every single chain and asset and you got, and there's positives, you gotta know what they are, but everything he said is a hundred percent accurate. Now you can explain all those things in a good, positive way that it'll help XRP holders

in the future, or you can look at it from a negative perspective. But the point is, it's factually accurate, everything that he said. Hey, Fred, I'll ask the question the way, very specifically. So forget the Ripple Labs, what they're doing, and forget the fact that Ripple's products, some of their software doesn't require the use of xrp obviously they want it to be used let's just make the rosiest of rosy assumptions let's assume that ripple labs ends up replacing swift and they end up putting xrp because it is so as you say cheap uh inside of it well we know Swift process about 50 million transactions a day. We, you know, so we have that number. Assuming XRP was used to trade 50 million transactions a day, given the fact that it's incredibly cheap, roughly speaking, what would that gas, you know, value accrual to

the XRP token be? To me, that's the question. And I still have yet to be able to get my head around it. I'm curious if you know anyone who's done that. So I will fully admit that that is a question that I think about all the time too. And I'm not quite, I've seen people tell me financial calculations and what that would have to mean for the price of XRP and this, that, and the other. And I also have trouble wrapping my head around it. I can only, you know, because at the end of the day, it is like fractions of a fraction of a penny to move value on the XRP L network. And so why the bottom line, the only thing I can come up with is that I see it in every other network is that the more use, the if you only have 100 billion XRP

and you have to move constant amounts of money in the trillions of dollars, it intuitively seems like you can't have a 40 cent XRP, a $2 XRP, but the math behind everything, I'm not the person to ask on that.

I freely admit to overthinking. But I see Mikkel. Oh yeah, good. Mikkel, maybe ask on that. Yeah. I mean, look, I admit, I freely admit to overthinking, but I see Michael. Oh yeah. Good. Michael, maybe you can answer. Is, uh,

is, is Michael, do we got to bring him up? Let me, uh, try to search for him and Simon or David. I saw that you had your hand up. So while I'm trying to maybe get Michael up here, feel free to jump in.

Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to say like, um, sorry pardon me pardon me can you hear me uh can you hear me i can't go for it fine um i was just going to say you know this discussion around xrp adoption for rails is obviously has to go through validation because you have a lot of existing financial institutions that are out there who are operating those rails. Just put yourself in Jamie Dimon's shoes and you're looking at this transition that's now going to be enabled because of better regulatory clarity. Are you really going

to go to an existing solution? I know that Dimon himself is, despite what he had to say about crypto a long time ago, has thousands of people working inside inside JP Morgan on something called the JPM token, which they're using internally with their own clients. Why wouldn't they want, given that the fact that they control these rails in their own presence, want to be using their solution as opposed to an XRP? We did get Mikkel up. So Mikkel, you've been summoned into the speaker panel with many people requesting you. Yeah, no. Just want to jump on a couple of things. One, I did agree with some of what Simon said, but the idea that XRP holders don't know what they hold. I mean, a couple of months ago, Simon didn't even know XRP was used as a transaction fee on the network. If you listen to the XRP community talk about this, they've had a deep knowledge of everything going on in the XRP community for an extremely long time. And I can tell you, there are absolutely no secrets about what Ripple holds, what XRP is in the equation, and how everything functions. It's a very, very educated group of

people who have been watching this play out for such a long time. And that's why you saw so many people stick around through the entire Ripple SEC case, because they see the true potential of what's being built out here. There has been calculations done on what Swift-like volume can do. Dave, it's actually a very good question. And it was actually done by Robbie Michnik,

who is now the head of digital assets at BlackRock. So he's actually a former Ripple employee. And they actually built a calculator with another woman named Susan Athe and put in Swift-like volumes into this calculator they created that, weirdly enough, since has been taken down very recently once it started gaining a lot of traction. And essentially, they were able to put in the transaction volume and there was assumptions made and how many daily movements would happen, total volume of each transaction. And it came out to something like somewhere

between a $35 to $100 XRP capturing somewhere between 8% to 10% of current SWIFT volume. So there's actually been some really good studies and calculations done in an actual calculator where you can plug in different transaction volumes to do this. It's since been taken down, but I'm sure there's replicas of it out there as well as a lot of videos and posts about people submitting their actual numbers to that calculator to try to replicate it. And then the last thing I want to quickly mention here is because it was also brought up, is this idea that Ripple has products that don't use XRP. Absolutely. Like, Ripple is turning into one of the largest custodians in the industry for all digital assets. The entire idea is Ripple can't go to a client, especially a very conservative bank, and say, okay, you absolutely need to use XRP or we're not going to work with you. What Ripple wants to do is slowly onboard these

large institutional participants into the XRP ecosystem. So they start with something like custody, just custodying digital assets, and obviously have downstream products to get them into more advanced products directly using the XRP ledger, like cross-border payments using XRP, loans using XRP, and all kinds of other more advanced financial vehicles. But it's all about building trust with these institutions before you jump directly into using XRP, the underlying network. Mikkel, my naivety with XRP as well, you mentioned that it actually is using the XRP token and its cross-border payments mechanism. Can you dive a little bit deeper in that? Because I remember when I dug into it in 2017, I thought it wasn't.

So I'd love for you to explain. Yeah, absolutely. So XRP, right, like fundamentally when Bitcoin was created, the original creators of Bitcoin, a lot of them decided, okay, this is absolutely fantastic. It's revolutionary. But can we make this faster and more efficient for more institutional, widespread, scalable solutions? And they created the XRP ledger. You can do absolutely anything you want with the XRP ledger. And there's tons of products and projects doing their own thing. But Ripple specifically uses it to increase settlement speeds and efficiencies. So rather than doing an international wire, and if you've

ever done an international wire, you know that it's just terrible. It's a horrible experience. Everyone hates doing wire transfers. Ripple created a product where rather than relying on the outdated rails of our financial system, what if we just take USD, send it through XRP, and the other currency pops out on the other side to whatever jurisdiction they need that currency conversion to do? So rather than relying on those outdated rails where essentially banks are arbitraging fees in the middle, you have NostroVostro accounts trapping capital, you just use XRP as that digital asset in the middle to settle transactions. And that product is growing very, very rapidly. They're doing billions of dollars, growing hundreds of

percent year over year, because it's essentially taking out a lot of the inefficiencies with the traditional financial system, just using XRP as that settlement layer. Guys, any other questions for Mikkel here? Mikkelle i didn't mean to put you on the spot with the xrp ama but we do have a sponsor as well is going to be joining us for an ama after your impromptu xrp ama here no no problem i just like to help educate people like on the thing because there's a lot of misinformation put out there about xrp and i think people need to take away one of the most important things here is just because XRP is looking to do something more actually utility-driven by using this blockchain to settle transactions, it doesn't mean it destroys the thesis of Bitcoin. It doesn't

necessarily have to be one or another. I'm a huge Bitcoin guy. Bitcoin is absolutely great as being a store of value, protecting against inflation. And it's always going to be a top blockchain in terms of institutional adoption with people getting access to this decentralized, neutral inflation hedge that no one can control. But in that same note, I'm a former surgical robotics engineer. I focus on the actual technology. Cryptocurrency distributed ledger technology, that actual blockchain that underpins it, is going to be dramatically useful in updating the financial system and updating the architecture to how money moves, how money is routed, and how future financial products are built.

Listen to any major banking institution. Listen to any major banking institution, listen to any major investment firm talk about things like tokenization. They see it's coming. And that's not all going to happen on Bitcoin, as many of us understand. So investing in those core public protocols that are going to be critical in building that transformation and building this next generation financial system, that's what I believe one of the core theses of XRP is. And I don't think that necessarily has to rival Bitcoin or anything like that. It's more of like a complement to the system we're building. Thanks, Mikkel. No, I appreciate you jumping up. It was almost like you heard yourself being summoned here. So that was a perfect synopsis there. I'd love to actually dive much, much deeper into it, because you're probably the person

that I've spoken to with the deepest knowledge on XRP. And there is a lot of seemingly misinformation out there. But we are doing a bit of a swift transition here to our sponsor. Sorry, could I do a quick closing comment on that? And then you can move to the sponsor. Of course. Go ahead, Simon. here to our sorry could i could i do a quick closing comment on that and then you move to the sponsor of course go ahead simon i just wanted to say look um you know with uh the excitement of the trump administration was clearly like the bitcoin strategic reserve a pro sec um crypto

friendly environment um and a bunch of an administration that um a bunch of them have bitcoin and embrace this industry which is an exciting time. But you can see where this is going. So welcome to what the future of America in crypto is going. You will over the next year or so. I'm pretty sure Ripple Labs will be a public company with public company level disclosure. You will have a probably XRP ETF, which will have the level of public company disclosure for an ETF. And you'll have a virtual asset service provider regulatory regime, either under the CFTC. Dream Channel, I see you up here now how are you

yeah i'm good uh great to uh make it back in here again uh yeah awesome yeah things are things are cranking in the whole crypto uh ai crossover world which is where we sit yeah i'm just gonna jump uh right back into it as some others are joining in here. But I know that you and I have spoken a few times. So for listeners who are kind of just coming into the space right now, maybe give the 101 on AI dreams and just what the elevator pitch is before we get started into an AMA here. Yeah, no problem at all. Yeah, so Dream Channel is a Web3 AI metaverse engine. I like to refer to it as a metaverse TV channel

because it's a multi-channel metaverse environment. And what it does initially is it powers AI-generative avatars to actually go out and do a whole lot of generate content. Now, how it actually works is that the avatars are generated by users. So the idea is that each of the dream channels is divided initially into 26 themed channels. Okay, and the idea is you pick a channel that kind of aligns a little bit with what your interests are.

So it could be a dating channel. It could be an action sports channel. It could be a fighting channel. And it kind of gives you a particular kind of look. Like an avatar, you can kind of pick and say, okay, this is my kind of look. You can craft it later. And the idea is that you scan your face and you generate this avatar, which basically has a personality, right? Using a personality matrix to craft that personality. So the general idea is we're trying to make it like an alter ego of yourself to start the ball rolling but people will change that it doesn't have to look like you

but it just gives you those tools in the beginning um and also it gives you a little bit of a look and a vibe of the style of dream channel in terms of the avatars that you can kind of like embody okay and the idea is to use this personality matrix and you can make yourself bashful you can make yourself outgoing you can make yourself bashful, you can make yourself outgoing, you can make yourself like aggressive or romantic or whatever you want, but it's a very complex personality matrix which you use and it generates this character, okay? And then what happens is you kind of like test the character out to see what it's going to do.

You inject it into this multi-channel environment, which is all the channels I talked about before. And what it does is it goes off and it bounces off other avatars in different scenarios and generates content. And it does all this in this persistent world. So it's actually, you don't have to do it. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to be there. It does it. Dream Channel, the concept is it happens at night while you go to sleep. So the avatar heads off at night and it dates, mates, procreates, base jumps, you know, steals cars, all kinds of stuff. And it kind of does all these random things based on its personality

and you're the one that made it happen. And then also based on the context of what's going on in any particular zone so in other words like if you inject your avatar into kind of the the you know the dj party zone you know you're going to get you're going to get a whole bunch of uh videos back to the next morning because it sends you a highlights reel the next morning of what it got up to right and then you can then look at that highlights reel see the avatars that it came across and follow up those connections right so getting back to the right? And then you can then look at that highlights reel, see the avatars that it came across and follow up those connections, right? So getting back to the DJ thing,

if you inject your avatar into the DJ party zone, you're going to get a whole bunch of videos the next morning of its night out, right? Of meeting girls, dancing on dance floors, you know, who knows what else? Like, you know, going on adventures in that sector. Whereas if you injected it into kind of like a sort of UFC, MMA fighting zone, it's going to come back with a bunch of fight, wins, losses, et cetera.

And then you're going to have to train it by adding, giving it more traits to get better, to go back in there again and maybe win some tokens for you. So this is the kind of idea. So it's a multi-channel entertainment network where all the content is generated by AI-generative avatars that you craft, right? Now, I think the biggest drivers, this all sounds like it's kind of like pie in the sky, right? But it isn't.

And I've actually posted a bunch of videos in the – well, I posted it in the group before, but I'll post a few more in this one now, which shows you some of the action that we've been generating already in our zone. So I'll just keep talking while I'm doing that. But, yeah, so it's – and the cool part about this is it generates content that's funny. Like I was showing some of my friends yesterday some of the things my

avatar has been doing, and they're just like – it just brings the house down. It's going to be the most amazing viral campaign possibly for your profile, which is maybe an extension of you. So you can imagine these videos circulating, and they're all quite outrageous. Yeah, I'll give you a breather there to maybe post some of the pinned posts so that you got some time to breathe and also post those videos. Because I've seen them before. They're quite entertaining and the reason why i think this is such a a unique and interesting idea is like back back when i heard about the metaverse and it was going into some of these

metaverses back when it was a huge narrative in the last cycle is that you go in and then it's like okay now what do i do like do? Like there's people maybe like running around, like it kind of looks like a very rudimentary roadblocks. I actually attended a conference in, I think it was 20, it would have been peak COVID. A friend of mine is the founder of ETH Toronto, the largest crypto conference in Canada. And during COVID, they put the conference on and they actually had it in a Metaverse environment, which I thought was very cool. That was definitely the best implementation that I'd seen. But other Metaverses, you go in and it's like, okay, well, what's going on? And there's kind of promises of

advertisers are going to come in, they're going to build things, they're going to want to monetize on the attention economy. But it's all about users and activity and keeping people entertained. So I thought this is a very unique idea because it can use AI to actually create that entertainment and really be a viral loop to draw in more users and whatnot. And because we've spoken a couple times now on this show, there's probably some users in here who have overlapped a little bit, maybe heard of AI dreams before. I'd love to dive in because it's not just a concept, like you said. How has the user adoption been? How many people are using it? And maybe give us some update metrics there. Yeah, no problem at all. Yeah. So there's two

parts to how we're launching this, right? And right now we have a focus group. It hasn't been released publicly. I'm just showing you videos now of what we've been doing. You can see those in the chat. But we haven't actually released it on mass. It's basically still a controlled environment in terms of getting it right. I think the reason for that is that Metaverse has been a constant source of disappointment for people for quite a long time, and I want to make sure that we're going to get this right and that people start, you know, engage with it and it works really well from the get-go. So, yeah, so in terms of user numbers, it's very much based around a control group, which I'll send a link for before this is over, and you can join that and request to join.

And you can test it. It's testing the environment, right? So that's where it's at at the moment. Yeah, but the starting point is going to be two parts. One is you're generating your avatar and it's doing things that you can – it can win you tokens as well, right? So it actually can – fighting is going to be an interesting interesting starting point here right so so the two starting points for this are fighting and dating uh that's where we're really going to get most people because otherwise

it gets too many things all at once right so so it's too many things to try and launch all at once right so fighting's an interesting one you literally go and that's probably the most evolved part of what we've what we started we that a couple of years ago, actually, before the AI part even was added in, right? But that's relatively simple. It's more about going and training your avatar up in different fight styles, karate, taekwondo, boxing, you know, MMA moves, even things like we've even got moves that we've added to the moves library there

that are things like dump tackles and, you know, big hits and stuff like that. So, you can actually defeat another avatar through literally charging at them and things like that. So, it's kind of like a next generation Street Fighter. So, that's the kind of design that we think that we're going to get, you know, that we've actually evolved more than the other ones in terms of the actual business model and the depth of the dojos that you would actually go to to get the moves you need to train your avatar to win and that's kind of an interesting way to every morning imagine waking up every morning and you know you look at the five or six or seven fights your avatar got in and they're replays right and you can see how it went and it won you coins uh or it didn't and then what you need to do to to get it

to go back and do that. So, that's a kind of an interesting, you know, almost example unto itself. Dating is the other part. I think that's actually going to be probably even bigger. On the dating front, you know, it's really about your avatar going and finding. You craft an avatar, but what we're doing at the moment is we're crafting an avatar that kind of, like, you know, I crafted me, but it's a better looking version of me. You know what I mean? And the idea is that someone else crafts a girl that matches up in terms of what my avatar is looking for and what she's looking for, right?

And then they go off and they kind of hang out. And we don't know what they're going to do, right? So, that's the cool part right so the so the engagement is going to come from on the fighting side it's going to come from oh did i win how do i train my avatar to do better on the dating side it's going to be kind of almost like a psychological study of like wonder what what this character is going to do given his personality and given her personality and where's this going to end up you know what i mean so it's kind of like so there's different and there's different kind of ways this is going to evolve

in different channels. So we're kind of like focusing on those two parts first, and that's where the user groups are at at the moment. You got any big partnerships or anything lined up, maybe even for that dating element? Like is there a way that some of these big public companies like Match.com or anything like that get involved and kind of do extensions within this area? I think that'd be pretty cool.

Yeah, we actually have been talking to a number of different people about how it would work. It's interesting. You know, I think they're all looking at it too. But it's interesting kind of looking at how tech works. If you start, yeah, in terms of like marketing to a greater audience, yeah, these are the relationships we need, right? And I think that the existing dating channels can get a lot

from this type of relationship in AI. But it does take things to another whole level. Like a real date in the real world is something, right? It's a unique thing unto itself, right? A virtual date where your avatar, which kind of is a version of you, is going off and dating with some other avatar, it's kind of a whole different thing. It's like a scientific experiment to kind of see what you could have done

or could be like if you did this, that. So it's kind of like almost like an – so what I'm trying to say, it's an entertainment channel. That's what I'm seeing it as. It's not really dating. It's like entertainment. Check this out. If I'm aggressive and I'm this and that, I get this kind of date and reaction.

But if I'm romantic and this and this, I get this kind of date. So it's kind of a very social experiment orientated thing. But where it will get really interesting, and this is where we're really strong, is we've been big in the VR component. How it monetizes itself really is, well, when you get to the premium side, is that I can actually embody my avatar's experience. So, in other words, the avatar goes and does what it does,

and then I can say, hey, I want to do that. And so, I can actually go into VR mode, embody the avatar, and feel, see, hear, touch everything in the first person. That's when it becomes a whole different thing. So you know what I mean? So the real date of a real dating site is what we know, match.com, et cetera. You know, a virtual date being watching what your avatar is doing and thinking, oh, that's interesting, is another thing.

But then embodying it it the virtual becomes real so that's a whole other mind mind kind of warped kind of moment which i think is and if we can do that we're delivering what the metaverse always promised for the tech and ai maybe in the audience what what stack is this all built on? Like which chain does it reside in? Yeah, sure, sure. So, yeah, so we're very, very unity-based in terms of our development. So that's where we're developing all the worlds and the graphics and everything like that. So that's that part of it. We initially built out our payment system,

which I'll get to in a bit, on Ethereum. So it was an Ethereum-based system. But we're actually about to gravitate over to Solana to make it quicker and faster. We looked at initially all the various scaling solutions for Ethereum. I mean, this is not a negative thing about Ethereum. I don't want it to go that way. But we were getting a great developer support when we were building

on Ethereum, but not many users coming on board in terms of how we could actually execute it. And I really see and feel that Solana has kind of like shown – so we haven't gravitated to Solana yet, but we're doing that now, right? And so our token that we're releasing is going to be on Solana as well. So that's where that's going. And then on the AI front, we're actually building our own. I mean, AI is interesting.

Like there's a lot of people doing a lot of similar things. Like, you know, if you look at like, you know, just here in Sydney, where I live in Sydney, Australia, by the way, you know, Leonardo AI are really good down here. That's kind of like a really great interface and they're building. They're doing what, but it's kind of the same thing as what everyone else is doing, like, you know, making videos better and quicker and getting avatars to speak and, you know, creating virtual assistants

and all that sort of stuff. And that's all really great. The building blocks of AI are happening through all that. But what we're trying to do is kind of a step on from that. It's like creating like an actual AI-generated video that has a context and a story, right, that hasn't really been done yet, right? So not in this way. So we're actually pulling a bunch of different things together

to make it work. We're using Ooga Booga, which is like, I don't know if you know what that is, but it helps us create our own proprietary kind of, you know, approach. Yeah, so you look on the tech stack. So it's very on the user engagement front, user interface. It's all very Unity driven. And it has been Ethereum up until now in terms of like the actual payment system and things like that. Yeah, no, it's clear that you guys have done a lot of work getting this operational. And even despite our space getting rugged before, we have 3,800 people listening in

right now and a ton of comments too. There's already been 36 comments that I'll certainly go through. But for people who are tuning in just as we're getting to the top of the hour, and I know that the IBC team has another show coming up, how can they get involved? How can they get started today, even after this space, to start using it? Alright, cool. Look, the best way, we have an app that's live on the app store uh right now but it's the fighting app and it's just the beginning of everything

uh so if it's a dream channel ai if you look for that on the app store you can download it and you can scan your face and you can generate an avatar and you can just get the ball rolling in terms of like joining right so that's the best way at the moment um to actually engage and be part of it and then from but really the best the best if you want to be part of it. And then from, but really the best, the best, if you want to be part of the, the, you know, the test, the test group, if you like, you know, on our Twitter, I'll put on the Twitter, a link to that. So you can, you can request to join that.

And that's probably the best place to become a tester. Cause I think that's where the real fun stuff is. But we've got a token sale that's coming up as well. But look that we're going to do a major announcement about that next week about how that works because that's coming onto Solana and it previously wasn't there. So that's just about to happen as well. But I don't want to jump the gun and start selling everyone a token before this thing's kind of really working. But just to let you know, there is a token. But the cool part

about the token is one thing there is that we've kind of tried to keep this thing very uh virtual world right in terms of and very gamey in terms of what it is right and i don't like saying the word token because it's actually it is a token that you buy but it's actually a uh an energy drink that's so basically these avatars need to drink this lucid dreaming elixir to live in the dream channel, right? So dream channel, so we're staying on point with the story here, right, is that there's a reason why dream channel exists, which comes out as we progress forward.

There's a narrative that rolls forward in this series that kind of like is a meta-narrative, if you like, which starts to roll out as we roll out, right? So basically there's a – and in that narrative, the avatars, these AI-generative avatars, which is what the whole story is about, need this lucid dreamy elixir. They need to drink it to get to remain in the dream channel. It's what they fight for.

It's what they earn. It's what they die for. They'll die if they don't have, right? So it's kind of like that. But that's a really important point because in AI, you need context, right? The AI is knowing that they need this thing gives them a reason to go on a date because they want to make money. It gives them a reason to fight because they need to get this thing, right?

And it gives them a focus in a certain scenario. So someone's saying something, there's a fight going on over there or whatever, they head for where they're going to get the elixir. You know what I mean? They do the thing that they need to do to get that, and it gives them a focus which allows the CPU that we need to drive this thing, the decision model, the decision tree, if you like, for the AI is quicker

because they go for what they need, right? So it's kind of like that's an important part of this whole thing is that the token, which actually represents this elixir, is the most valuable thing of this whole thing because it's the economy of what drives the other time. So in terms of people who are listening in, if they do want to get involved, just searching on the App Store or Dream Channel AI is the best way to do it right now?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's right. That's how you join. And then I'm going to post and follow on X, right? And then that'll give you all the announcements about. So before the end of the year, we're going to launch the token sale. And basically, people can buy the Elixir in advance of this whole thing. And the other thing we'll be doing

before the end of the year is launching episode one and two of the Meta Narratives story. We've actually shot, there's 26 episodes in the Dream Channel series, if you like, which stars the AI generative avatars in the series. So the idea is that when you first join, the core characters of the world are in the series right and you can be in it too that's the idea so so there's this whole multi-level level approach so the first thing you'll be able to do is join using the app and watch the series to get context on what this whole thing's all about why why the elixir is worth

something and what it's all about so so that's the black mirror part, right? So for people tuning in, website, which is in your bio, app store, definitely search. Is it Dream Channel AI? To check it out. And token sale, end of the year. I like to kind of leave the audience with like a couple very specific things that they can follow up with. But we're starting to get kicked off here

just due to the IBC team having another show. So I do want to appreciate you for joining us again. And I love always getting the updates about this project because I do think that it's very needed and having entertainment in the metaverse sector here. So I want to appreciate you for joining and invite the audience to follow Dream Channel underscore AI. You can click on their profile right here.

And I do encourage you to send out some tweets after, definitely with some of those videos for people to check it out. But I really hope that I get to host another AMA with you. These frequent updates are awesome. So I thank you for joining again today.