The Wolf Of All Streets - You Should Put 10,000 Hours Into Learning About Blockchain | Jerry Fragiskatos, IOHK

Episode Date: December 4, 2022

I had the pleasure of talking to Jerry Fragiskatos, Chief Commercial Officer Of IOHK, at Mainnet in September. Although it’s been almost 3 months since we had this conversation, it is still relevant. We discussed timeless topics: principles that IOHK, the tech company behind Cardano, is applying for building the ecosystem and value, how the price of Cardano influences the business, why blockchain is civilization-altering technology and why you should put 10,000 hours into learning about blockchain. Jerry Fragiskatos: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerryfragiskatos ►► JOIN THE FREE WOLF DEN NEWSLETTER https://www.getrevue.co/profile/TheWolfDen  GET UP TO A $8,000 BONUS IN USDT AND TRADE ALL SPOT PAIRS ON BITGET FOR ZERO FEES! ►► https://thewolfofallstreets.info/bitget   Follow Scott Melker: Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottmelker  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wolfofallstreets   Web: https://www.thewolfofallstreets.io  Spotify: https://spoti.fi/30N5FDe  Apple podcast: https://apple.co/3FASB2c  #IOHK #Crypto #Cardano The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own and should in no way be interpreted as financial advice. This video was created for entertainment. Every investment and trading move involves risk. You should conduct your own research when making a decision. I am not a financial advisor. Nothing contained in this video constitutes or shall be construed as an offering of financial instruments or as investment advice or recommendations of an investment strategy or whether or not to "Buy," "Sell," or "Hold" an investment.

Most blockchains and projects in the crypto space seem to think it's a good idea to move fast and break things. That's the opposite approach of Cardano. I spoke with Jerry from IOHK about their academic, slow-moving, long game that they are playing to build what they believe will be the dominant blockchain of the founding principles of IOHK is cascading disruption. That's right. I love that term. Yes. What does it mean? So, I mean, you got to think about when you're building a blockchain, you always have to start with solid foundations.

So where do you start from? You start with vision and mission and strategy, right? So cascading disruption is really about what is it that blockchain was built for? It's built for empowering individuals, right? So for centuries, probably post-industrial revolution, I would say, things have gotten very centralized. Centralized corporations, centralized government, probably started with Napoleon, right? And there's a historical context to this, right? In ancient times, things were more decentralized, city-states and these types of things, right? And there's this kind of desire, I would say, from humanity,

especially in the Western democracies of the world, to change the order of things, to bring power back to the individual. So that's what I view as disruption. But as one company or as one individual, you can't do it by yourself. So the way I think of a cascading is about using the power of the network effect, building an ecosystem, decentralizing that, empowering people, and then it creates a cascade of disruption. Anything's better than cascading liquidations.

That's right. So I'll take cascading liquidations. That's right. So I'll take cascading disruptions as our new term in the crypto space for cascades. I'd love to touch on the cascading liquidations, but maybe I can kind of take a step back. Please do. And talk about the ethos of what Input Output is, what Cardano is, and so forth. Please. Input Output is a technology company. And it's a very vision and mission-oriented company.

And it's built on a foundation of provably secure blockchains. So starting from first principles in the science lab, with researchers, and proving out what a secure, decentralized, scalable, interoperable blockchain could look like, and then slowly bring this into the world very methodically. So it starts in the research lab. It started with working with the University of Edinburgh.

We've expanded that remit to a lot of universities around the world. I think we're 10 or 20 universities. Recently, we gave a donation to Stanford, $4.5 million, adding on top of our $500,000 donation a while back to foster that innovation and that research. So really scientifically proven peer review. That's where it starts from. And then we extend that into technology.

So it needs to use formal methods. This is why we use Haskell as a programming language. That's a functional programming language. So you can start with something that's scientifically proven to something that's executed most faithfully to that scientific proof. So that's really the basis of how we do it. That's our ethos. So we start with admission and vision, but we're changing the world,

so it has to be provably secure. That is the base layer of how this is going to work, right? And then we need to make sure it's decentralized, because how can you empower individuals if it's centralized? And then we can get the scalability performance that you get the user experience and so forth. And then you can get the interoperability where we play nicely with other blockchains.

So we do this very methodically. We use the term measure twice, cut once. That's our methodology, which creates a lot of pushback from... I'm the chief commercial officer, so I feel this every day, right? Everybody likes to move fast and break things. That's our methodology, which creates a lot of pushback from, I'm the chief commercial officer, so I feel this every day, right? Everybody likes to move fast and break things. That's right.

That is not our philosophy. We've broken a lot of things. We have. We have. If you've been following me for the last few months, then you definitely know that I've been trading and investing on BitGet. Now, listen, it took me six months to decide that they were going to be the sponsor for the newsletter.

But once I saw their partnership with Juventus, that they were the world's leading copy trading platform in crypto, and also that they're a top five exchange by volume, well, I was sold and I was convinced. I've been using it ever since to dollar cost average and to invest in Bitcoin. You can also trade there with leverage, but of course, be careful if you're going to do that. And I don't know if you saw the recent news, but they've also done a deal with Lionel Messi. Now you can get up to an $8,000 bonus using my link below, and you can trade spot with absolutely no fees. You also get a 15% discount on trading leverage. Go ahead and sign up right now using the wolf of all streets.info.bitget.

Claim that huge reward and use the world's best trading platform. Ultimately, the value of the blockchains and where they're going to end up is still happening. We haven't gotten there yet. So, you know, the first wave where the ICO waves are kind of figuring out how you can raise money for companies. We all saw how that went. The next wave was DeFi and NFTs. And that's the go fast and break things. Ultimately, and this is my role as chief commercial, is, well, where's the real use and utility of the blockchain? And for me, that's where you bridge it to the real world. This is why we spend so much time in Africa and emerging markets.

It's about bringing financial inclusion, economic identity to those who don't have it, right? And so that's where it comes to. Now, in the meanwhile, it's a bit, your name, you know, the Wolf of Wall Street. That's Main Street and Wall Street, right? That's the idea. NFTs and DeFi for me is Wall Street.

You need that. You need the innovation. You need the liquidity. You need the traders getting in there, doing the crazy things that they do. And of course, it's going to break things. And of course, there are Street. You need that. You need the innovation. You need the liquidity. You need the traders getting in there, doing the crazy things that they do. And of course, it's going to break things. And of course, there are going to be liquidations. But hopefully, people who get into that space know what they're getting into.

And they know that's what it is. But that's not where the true utility is going to come from. That's going to create the primitives that you need for the true utility. Your stable coins, your lending platforms, your DEXs, etc., etc. They'll go through these cycles and you'll create this infrastructure that could then be directed towards the real economy. And that's where I see things going for the industry.

And frankly, that's the way that we see things for us, right? So we're in a price discovery phase now. The macroeconomic environment is infecting a lot of what's going on because of liquidity. It's hard to say this for those people who have put their money, and this is not financial advice, of course, put their money in the industry and then lost their money, is that, you know, this is the innovation phase of it.

And later we'll get to the real utility where that money could be used towards real-world use cases and you could tie it to real-world economics. And I think that's ultimately where it'll end up going and exactly how that's going to work out towards real-world use cases, and you could tie it to real-world economics. And I think that's ultimately where it'll end up going, and exactly how that's going to work out, it's anybody's guess.

We made our bets towards financial inclusion, micro-lending, and remittances in these types of markets in the emerging world. That's our bet. But it's a general-purpose platform, so we have an ecosystem building around trying all kinds of different things. And it's an evolutionary pressure. At one point, there'll be things that succeed,

things that fail, and then it'll find its utility. I mean, it sounds like you guys have somewhat opted out of the move fast and break things. You have a very academic approach and you're playing the long game for utility. That's exactly right. That's the best way to describe it.

Absolutely. But we still, of course, back to the Main Street, Wall Street thing, you still need some of that, right? You still need that experimentation because that's what's going to provide the liquidity to the marketplace that can then be directed to the right people. But do you need that experimentation on Cardano or can you watch everybody else blow things up? You're right.

I'm asking. I don't know. We watch what's going on very carefully. We started a roundtable, a consensus with the DeFi players, and they were very demanding of what they needed, right? They said, we need a stable coin. We need a multi-chain bridge. We need EVM compatibility. We need more developer experience. They were very clear about these things. And I was sitting there with Charles, and Charles took a very, you know, he told, listen, of course you need these things. But look what's happening in the marketplace.

Look what's happening with the bridges, for example. Oh, my God. Right? That's a vector of attack. And you've got to be very careful about doing that because you only get one chance to lose people's money, right? And you'll never get that chance again. And, man, are we taking those opportunities everywhere we can find them. So, you know, of course we feel that pressure.

We do look at what our competitors are doing very carefully to make sure we don't repeat the same mistake. So we do borrow from their innovation as well. But they also borrow from our innovation. So on the research side, you know, proof of stake done properly, I think we've established that on Cardano based on the Ouroboros protocol. And that protocol is open source, open to the public, and Polkadot used that protocol.

So the innovation goes both ways. But we are definitely the long game, measure twice, click once. That's what we're about. So the ecosystem partners that are bought into that vision and mission, we work very well together. Those that are looking to make a quick buck or imitate everybody else

That's probably not the best place for you. Does that make it difficult? I mean your job literally is to go out and speak with these people and make it happen Does it do you find that there's people who just get it and say yes We're in for the long game or do you find it's very difficult because everybody wants it's their cake and to eat it too And they want to be rich next year and they want to see a 10-year process compacted into six months. Yeah. So it's extremely difficult from a commercial perspective because we feel all of it. Right. And, you know, making sure that our relationship with everybody is a positive relationship is part of what I do.

Right. But it's hard sometimes because there are people that want things done quickly and you got to tell them you got to wait and that creates a gap of expectation. And then they'll go on Twitter and they'll complain and they'll create the FUD and so forth. Whereas there is a subset that are very much in line with a long game, right? So like governments tend to be more longer term oriented. Research institutions and universities understand that long game. So there is a certain cultural fit that needs to work itself out. And I would say it's a subset.

It's not the majority. So we're very careful about the partners that we work with, that they're bought into this. So, for example, WMC that are here with us today, they're about connecting the unconnected in the emerging markets. They're very much bought into this. They're on a vision, you know, five, 10-year vision and mission, right? So those type of partnerships work quite well. We're very jealous about the type of partnerships

we create based on these types of things. We have a partner like Singularity. They're Dr. Ben Gertzel with Artificial Intelligence. They're very much of that mindset. So those kinds of relationships work. The ones that are impatient, you know, either they'll start, stop, go on another chain, try to work it out there. And at some point in the future, there's always a home for them once they've seen that.

If you love them, let them go. I mean, and they'll come back. You got it. That's exactly right. So that's my personal point of view. I think that also reflects the ethos that Charles has tried to create. And I think the long game is the game, right? Where probably, you know, when I first started like four years ago, I said we're in the 90s of the Internet.

Yeah. We're probably in the dot-com right now. Yeah. 99 to 2000. 99 to 2000. Exactly. You got it. You got it, right?

So when did Facebook come out? And I don't want to use them as a good example, but 2004. Well, they have 2 billion daily users. It's a good example whether you like them or not. Four years later, right? So I still feel that we're in that kind of timeframe. And I think we've got the right finger on the pulse in terms of the innovations like the S-curve. I find it funny when people critical of the blockchain industry use the dot-com bubble as the best corollary for why it's a problem right as if the largest companies and most important and impactful companies in the entire world were not the phoenixes that rose from the ashes of the dot

com bubble that's exactly right of course you if you have a new space and you have innovation and you have every smart entrepreneur coming there, 99% are going to fail. But they're all going to advance the ball slightly. That's exactly right. And somebody's going to win. That's also a hard thing to explain to people that come from traditional markets. But that's a traditional market. They should get it perfectly.

Well, I mean. I agree with you. Call it, you know, what do they call it? Traditional finance, for example, is the term. You know, people in the VC world and Silicon Valley, they get it. Right. They understand it? Traditional finance, for example, is the term. People in the VC world and Silicon Valley, they get it. They understand it. They went through that web too.

What they don't get is they want to capture all the value. It's like, what's in it for me? So educating them about the new model and what advantages that brings is a bit of a tough sell. Another big differential of Cardano is that there's not many insiders. If you look at the distribution of ownership of ADA, it's primarily individuals. There's very little, like very few whales, very few insiders. There was no VCs that took 30, 40, 50 percent of it. So that's

another very different thing, right? Which again just comes from the mission vision and cascades down. The VC's like, well, where's my ROI next year? Sorry, where's my ROI next quarter, right? If it's not there, they'll say, oh, it's a ghost chain, you know? Right. Complaint. Plus, they're also paid off by, you know, our competitors, right? And they're also incentivized to create that FUD. So I think time will tell. And I think we're taking the right approach. And I think we will be one of the ones that come out the other side of this, including some of the more, you know, do things quickly and break fast. Ethereum's not going anywhere. Yeah, I agree. I think you guys

have had, as an outsider's perspective, a bit of a catch-22, which was that you're playing the long game very vocally, academic perspective, but then the price of the coin reached such a high market cap that it forced expectations that you would be breaking things and moving fast. Absolutely. That's a very difficult thing, needle to thread. It's like almost would have been better for you guys if there had been less interest in the coin specifically for that period of time. I know you can't necessarily say that, but. I mean, if you were to ask me, I would prefer less volatility.

Yeah. I mean, that's ultimately the goal, should be an ecosystem that has a real-world value that is easy to quantify. We're starting to get there, I think. You know, if you look at a layer one blockchain, it's a block-producing service, and that's your layer one.

And at the beginning, yes, it's bootstra producing service. And that's your layer one. And at the beginning, yes, it's bootstrapped by some speculation, some expectation of the future, inflation as well. And then that conversion, what they call the chasm, towards world-to-world utility. And these are, you could go to like models from

Gartner and BCG and all these guys, these are very well understood models, right? And yeah, personally, I would prefer less volatility. I'm not going to make any speculation of what the value will look like in the future. I'm just saying we're building towards more daily active users,

more use and utility, adoption, the real value behind a network. Yeah, the price of the coin is almost in no way a reflection of the value of the network. I think there's noise around it. I don't think specific to you. I mean, in this ecosystem right now, I would argue that the price of Bitcoin is not in line with the value of Bitcoin. Well, you know, so this is what I find interesting, having been in this for a while.

Everyone tries to use an analogy to describe what we're doing. It's different. It's a different animal, right? It's like a unicorn appeared. Oh, it's like a horse and a rhino, right? Yeah, kind of, but not, right? And I think, you know, the narrative keeps changing, and that's what people get confused about. So the Bitcoin narrative keeps changing, right? At what people get confused about. So the Bitcoin narrative keeps changing.

At first, it was a payment system. And then it's a store of value. It's like gold. Well, it's this, and it's that, and it's that, and it's this, and it's a little bit of everything. And it hasn't found its evolutionary need yet perfectly. It's got some pieces of it. And when it happens, of course, that's what it was, right? But this is where I think a lot of the noise, it's important that people understand there's a lot of noise in the system right now, which kind of fluctuates the

perceived value of things versus what the real value is. A lot of it right now is future looking, right? You know, if Bitcoin becomes a unit of accounts and replace all currencies, then it's far more valuable than it is today. If it's just replaced for gold, it's still far more valuable. If it's something else... It might still be far more valuable. Right. We don't know, right?

You know, let it go through the macro environment right now. It's going to depress risk assets. Right. I mean, you can't figure out... You can't differentiate anything from anything else in the environment where liquidity is being sucked out of the system. It's a good thing though because the real projects survive. The phoenixes will rise from the ashes, it's the same sort of...

It's an evolutionary pressure. It's like the asteroid hit the earth and the dinosaurs died and mammals grew and humanity comes out of it. So how do you separate the signal from the noise in an environment like this? I like to use the word 10,000 hours. Time. You have to study it. Malcolm Gladwell. Malcolm Gladwell. I'm a firm believer

in that because I went through this. I didn't know what a blockchain was when I started. I thought it was this and the more I learned about it well no it's not that and I'm still learning. I think you need to put the 10,000 hours in to truly understand it. And as a commercial guy, part of my job is to try to simplify that as best that I can to explain it better. But if you're really going to put any significant investment

in this, you should be invested in it because you believe in the technology. You believe in what we're doing and the communities that are being created. Not for some return on investment. Again, not a financial advice, but you get what I'm saying, right? And if you're in it because it's FOMO and your friends are in it, don't be in it. Or just know why you're in it and accept it. Accept it. Know that you're gambling and you're not getting the free drinks at the casino.

Exactly. You got it. Absolutely. So that's the way I look at it. I see this as being game-changing. I was at the blockchain event in Paris, and there was a historian of money that spoke about the innovations from antiquity, and he put blockchain in that context. It really is, in my personal opinion,

of the order of magnitude of the creation of money, of the creation of the corporation, of the creation of government systems. It's at the corporation, of the creation of government systems. It's at that level in my personal point of view. That is a hard thing to wrap your mind around. And you also have the established powers that see this and are pushing against it because they see that it could disrupt the IMF. It could disrupt centralized governance.

They don't like that. They don't like it. You can see, especially the IMF. It could disrupt centralized governance. They don't like that. They don't like it. You can see, especially the IMF. You mentioned Bitcoin or cryptocurrency in any country around the world and the IMF all of a sudden steps in with their threats about not offering any more loans or Argentina was ready. In the clause, in the clause that the money don't have Bitcoin. I mean, excuse me? It's your Bitcoin or your 10 bill. That's right. Exactly. And it's like, I think the average... That should show you how actually impactful this technology and asset class potentially

can be if they fear it that much. Because if it was a non-issue, they would still be in the ignore you phase. Exactly. And they're not. They're in the fight you phase. So I'm in this industry because I believe in it. I believe it's civilization altering technology. That's what I personally believe. I didn't believe that when I started, but the more and more I'm in it,

that's what I believe. It's a deep rabbit hole. It's a very deep rabbit hole, absolutely. And that's my personal belief. The DAOs that are there, new ways of doing incorporation, new ways of organizing people. If you look at all the users in our space, what are we?

100 million, 200 million, something like that? I would argue a lot smaller. Maybe 50 million? No, you are correct, but I love how we lump in every person who's ever bought a coin ever as part of our ecosystem. We know that the majority of them are speculators who bought a dog. Sure. I agree.

So I think we're even smaller than we're given credit for. Pick a number. 50 million. Sure. 30 million. That's the size of New York City. Right. So what about people all around the planet who are working together to change the world

and it's got the population of New York City? Yeah. And world, and it's got the population of New York City. And at one point, it's got the population of New York State, then the population of the United States, and then the population, you know, it'll be bigger than a nation. Right, but nothing that we have right now can operate at that scale. No, I agree, yeah. And there's other parts of it, too, that I think some people forget, is that the base layer is still the Internet.

Of course. Yeah, we love to talk about decentralization, but when Amazon Web Services or Cloudflare goes down, we realize very quickly how centralized we are. Yeah, and not to knock Ethereum, but Infura and Metamask, they're choke points now, right? They could shut things down. And there's choke points of decentralization. It's a tornado cache. That's a great example, right? Somewhere in the wings,

there's waiting a new version of the internet below it that will be scalable and so forth. Compute power. Although Moore's Law has lost some of its theme, it's still very much alive. So once that layer also expands and the scalability will increase, all the innovation in the space,

they'll fix that problem. Not all of it needs to be done on layer one. They're a very compelling layer two. You know, the roll-ups and all that kind of stuff that are filling in the gap. Sure. So I'm very optimistic, but you're right.

It's probably, again, to anyone's guess, who can guess an exponential curve, right? Right. But when you talk about, hey, we're at 50 million and breaking things, a billion starts to become very daunting. I agree. Three billion even, way more daunting.

I agree. So there is a space there for the innovation to come in. And also, to be fair, allowing the governments to get into it in a positive manner. Of course. Allowing the institutions to get in a positive manner where, you know, I'm not a fan of a lot of regulation, but some of it's there for a good reason. People do need protection. Consumer protection.

How do you protect the consumer in a decentralized way? That's super important. We shouldn't throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater. No. And I also look at it a bit like a living system, right? So the human body is a decentralized system, but it has a lot of centralized functions to it. The problem I see is that currently especially in Western societies there's

too much centralization. So now the decentralized movements coming in I think a good balance between the two is probably where we'll end up being. How dare you not say we need to be fully centralized or fully decentralized and admit that maybe it's a sliding scale. That's right. And I like that competition. The competition is the way things are going to get better. And I'll take Cardano for example. We had an interview. They're like, when are we going to change the world? And I'm like, well, haven't we kind of started? We built an ecosystem that has millions of people in the community,

thousands of stake pool operators, a thousand dApps looking to develop, a few hundred coming out over the next few years, employment of thousands of people. That's something. When you talk about the long game, then what is that timeline? I mean, that's probably what people ask you the most, right? We're on an exponential curve. It's anyone's guess. I mean, my gut feeling- But you guys are

not in a rush right my you know i've been in this in five years four or five years i don't recognize what i see now versus where i started crazy so that five years should be like that same exponential growth is probably one year now yeah exactly you got it right so and then six months and then three right you know what i'll a generation. Because it's not just about the technology. It's about the people. Well, I hate to say it, but the people in control have to be removed, which generally these days means die. Yes, exactly. And the younger generation that gets it needs to replace them.

And you can't force that. I agree. I think the technology will get there before the mentality and the governance structure adapts. So I think it's a generational shift. I'll just throw that out there. Because millennials, Gen Zs, I'm a Gen Xer. Kind of a bridge. 45 years old.

48. We're the bridging generation, right? We built all this stuff. I remember what it was like before the internet. I showed up at the University of Pennsylvania in 1995 for my freshman year. And they said, what do you want your email address to be? And I said, what the hell is an email address? Exactly. And I remember when he first...

I had used LexisNexis before at the library, public library. And I remember the internet. I was in university when the internet started. Mosaic was the, I think it was Mosaic at the time. And the first thing I did was download a picture of Bugs Bunny. Yeah. That was the internet to me. Mine was Cindy Crawford. But I had to, But it took a day.

It was like watching a dot matrix printer on your screen just to get one photo. So what was it to me? It was like, oh my God, all that stuff that I used to have to wait to watch, I could not have access to. So my first gut was nostalgia. And this is when it was a passive just, you know, thing. Information, right.

And then we've been part of this revolution, so we've seen how quickly it could move. I mean, I remember as a kid having the phone, the fixed line with the big cord, right? Yeah, man. If anybody has zero in the number, big problem, right? Yeah, huge.

You know, I think we're kind of the bridging generation that helped kind of bring it to that level but i think the millennials the gen zers or whatever the next generations are going to be called they need to come into power for this technology to really well i think that crypto might still be the in the rotary phone phase but i look forward to us getting to uh iphone yeah exactly so how long will that be? I think a generation. But with a lot of leaps and bounds, probably in a five year cycle. And are you guys willing to wait that out and continue to develop slowly and mechanically?

100%. Regardless of how much criticism you get for it? 100%. I mean, you've spoken to Charles, right? Yeah, and I started the entire interview with an apology. But yes, I have. And then the rest of it went on to a conversation about tribalism. Not an apology for anything I said,

but an apology for what people have said who have come into my interviews. That was a big cultural change for me because I came from... I worked at Dell before coming into the blog. A little different. Yeah, for sure. Although Michael Dell is an extraordinary man in his own right.

He disrupted the industry back in his day, right? I was used to quarterly cadence, right? Months, quarters are very important. And then working for Charles, he's looking at things, this is his life work. This is, you know, this is whatever the fifth symphony, right? This is, this is his life work. He's not going anywhere. He's a young guy. He's in it for the long game. And that took an adjustment for me. But, you know, I'm in it too because of just the magnitude of what we're trying to do here. Well, it's amazing to hear it articulated because, as you said, there's so much noise. Yeah. And I'm the commercial guy, right? So I'm like, I'm trying to prime the pump. And when I first got in, kind of, because there was a lot of nervousness

in my company when I came in. Why are you getting commercial guy? You know, we're not about making money. We're about changing the world. Well, you can't change the world without people knowing about you. That's right. So that was kind of what I said, the dog wagging the tail, right? I'm here to support the mission and vision. But in the meantime, to get that cascading disruption, you need to make profitable businesses that can do that because that's the only way to do it. It's not just about giving grants to people and continually doing that. That's not a sustainable model.

So for me, commercialization, utility adoption, creating viable businesses out of it, is what's going to create the cascading disruption. Wall Street, Main streets, you know. Wall Street, Main Street. You need both. Well, sounds like you believe we can get there. I share that belief.

So it's nice to hear the vision and to know that it's purposeful. Yes. Because if you listen to Twitter, you would think it's just like nobody's working. Right. Well, we're about 500 people in IOG. And that's just IOG. We're thousands of people in the ecosystem building right now.

That's the order of magnitude of what's being built in Cardano. And as you multiply across the industry, you're in the tens of thousands. It's quite impactful. Well, can't wait to see it all come to fruition. Thank you so much. My pleasure. So where do we hit the bell? Subscribe? Hit the button, subscribe to the thing, like the friends, see the guy. That's go.