The Worst Idea Of All Time - 03: Clown School

Episode Date: December 3, 2025

We are joined by writer, comedian and (semi) qualified clown Johanna Cosgrove for our third watch, on day two of our grand experiment. Johanna, Guy and Tim run an intense discussion on the musical genre in film, the competing Parisian clown schools and of exactly what Lady Gaga is doing in this movie. Also this episode, we introduce Tim’s eye stye!Support the grand experiment, and see the video episodes and bonus content at twioat.substack.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The worst idea of all time. Worst idea of all time. A fresh way to lose your mind. Your boys are bad with what you need. It's not worse things, then life are free. With that worst idea of all time. A brand new way to wreck your mind. What's the worst idea of all time?

Good morning and welcome along to our third watch and review of Joker 2. time's got pretty grim last night so guy and I thought that it was important to bring in the clowns some expertise someone who has not just been professionally trained in the clowning arts in France

but is also the biggest Lady Gaga fan that I know we decided to bring in as our first guest on this season comedian Yohana Cosgrove well hey eat that mic up

and tell us what we've just finished the movie. Fuck, mate, can I swear on this? I would invite you. I have one instruction for you, and that is speak your truth. Yeah.

Okay. You should do the list of band words you were doing, you were saying that the joker should say during the movie. You should say those ones. What words did you want to hear Joaquin Phoenix say? The slurs. Yeah. Faggot.

Can you imagine? Morning, Johanna Cosgrove. But also, I whispered it. You whispered it with your whole chest. I whispered it as though that would mitigate me saying it. Oh, look, we've all been through a lot today. We've just sat through a watch. Although I don't want to put any words in your mouth or...

No need. No, no, no. Shame at your game. By all means. Or flavour your review. So I would love. to hear what you thought of that movie we just watched. I truly

think that the movie started about five minutes before the end, and the rest of it was the most beautiful cinematic faff I've ever seen. The performances were crazy. They are all sucking

their own dicks the entire time. Joaquin Phoenix loving himself, sick. Gaga, absolutely going for it, and yet giving nothing. Right. And I love who I love Stephanie Jim and Anna. And that's what I expected.

That's what I expected. So you weren't like feeling that that was a good showing from here in this movie. I, okay. Foli adieu. And before you answer that, can I ask as a massive Gaga fan, why you've stared clear of a movie that she's such, you know, a movie that she's such a significant part of? Because I knew I had a feeling this would happen. What would happen? Disappointment.

Yeah, what is this? And what are you disappointed in? Well, I don't think she's a great actor. Mm. And I also think she's toxed herself to oblivion. Right. And it's so disarming to see lip filler in Arkham Asylum. Right.

It is so crazy. That's incongruent with the universe they've built, the 1950s, gritty New York scene. With a fresh 2-mill. Right. I mean, it looks great with the makeup on, but she's sort of going like, Yeah, it's a pretty specific makeup, Your Hanna, which you are, our substack subscribers will know you are styling right now. This is my, I haven't come in costume. This is my normal wear.

My apologies. I'm just going to go to countdown after this. That's not true because you told me, you didn't have the self-confidence to order a coffee dress like this. So. Also, it's like, pull behind the curtain while I've got so much love and respect for you, Your Hanna. Initially, just, you know, due to the circumstances of what we're doing here, you were, you, had a flight this morning. Yeah.

And you were like, I will be there at 6.30 in the morning, camera ready. I have dressed in weirder stuff at 6.30 in the morning. Yeah, I can believe that. Professionally and personally. Yeah, of course. So. I would consider this professional garb. What you said...

This is a professional appointment. Yeah, it's a professional appointment. We're not here as friends. That's correct. But we are friendly. Well, we're here because we are friends. That's right. But you are here for business.

Oh, and I took notes. What you said though that this movie starts five minutes before it ends like this is there were two things that this is the first time I've realised them which is striking the first is that point

that like if you started in the court scene about one minute before the bomb goes off that is a fucking great way to enter a movie I want to see where it goes I totally agree with that and but I all the challenge I think is also because one of my favourite score

moments happens there when the jury are reading out the guilty and at the end of it and so say we all which I did really feel was a chance them to launch into a happy birthday style and so say all of us for every guilty verdict he's being found guilty and

Arthur Fleck starts laughing and then at someone in the gallery stands up and says stop laughing and then there's this sort of this brass beat this sort of minor sounding like brass slide in the background which very very strongly

harkens back to like Nolan's sort of Batman's cinematic universe it feels like the world of dark night it's a Han Zimmer move and so then there's the explosion and that does feel so like that makes it feel so exciting the idea of a movie starting

there and getting to spend time with those people is like intriguing and sort of fascinating it's fucking propelling to a story it's different it's not what they it's not what Todd wants for us. He puts us in the jail for so long where nothing happens other than the Joker goes to singing class and has a cigarette. Yeah. And walks around.

Yeah. And that's it. That is it. And then he has the trial. What does happen is they humanise some prison guys, which is insane. Who is Brendan Gleason and he has a really crazy. interview with Steve Coogan who is doing the most

what do you think of Steve Coogan because we didn't warn you we tried to not warn you about anything at all but Steve Coogan just like popping up how did you feel when you saw him just appear I was like another one well because Brendan Gloucett then they've got like a little

Robert De Niro reference on the he's in the first he's quite big in the first movie so he is the chat show host who gets his brains blown out by Joker that makes sense to me now he's just on the cover of a book in this movie he's not there

IRL the fact that I haven't seen the first Joker movie which I decided not to see by choice that is a political

choice I think that is what was the principal Johanna's not a fan of my community in cells yeah

in sales we don't call ourselves what do you maligned maligned men poor MMs the dumb

the MMs that's why we got so furious when that sexy one stop dressing for us? You just call yourself

victims. Yeah, I had no interest in watching The Joker. We are Eminem's too because we've got a hard shell but we've got a soft chocolate interior. There's nothing chocolate in your interior.

Does this movie make you want to see the first one? Absolutely not. No way in hell. But I totally agree with you that it's very Christopher Nolan coded in the way that they shoot everything to it's really slow. The colour palette.

The grade is really similar. and they use the same in Dark Night Rises so much of it is like right here with this like really intensely blurred background which they sort of get towards at the end which is crazy in IMAX because you've got a face that is just occupying like two

stories of a building when you see those movies on the big screen and everything very shallow depth of the field and it's quite amazing and then like yeah I'm glad that you picked up on that this is a beautiful stupid film it's so beautiful and so stupid And every performance, they are loving it so much and the story makes no sense. Where is the conflict?

What is, is it him versus the prison guards? Because then they come back and say that they're just trying to spread joy before they do bad. Yeah, we've sort of as a group come to the conclusion that they do, yeah, abuse Arthur probably with a baton off camera based on the before and afters. and also the fact that they I don't know I just think it's like it's very what's the bit I'm looking for

unskilled or uncaring or something for this movie to introduce sexual assault at the hands of his mother in the court scene they just kind of like lob it in and then move on it's kind of like okay you're like okay cool

it's like we're aggie also my other thing is I knew that this movie was a musical and let me say It is a pick me musical Tell me more about why Because every song They do

They over I reckon they overreg the intro to the song They're trying to make it so that the song They're either like, it's fantasy They're like really In a traditional musical A song comes when it's a character's Point of Deep Emotion Or it's a change

Like everything they're figuring out of import Comes through the music In this it's just I wouldn't I don't know how how or why it's like he's deepening his relationship with like he's having fun with Harley Quinn it's a break from talking yeah it's just a break from talking and we've got bored of dialogue so we'll put a song in here yeah and it's just sort of fancy mm you also raised the point to him that it breaks one of the cardinal rules of musicals in which as the song is taking place we cut to people who are still rooted in reality around the

song which really complicates how much of the how many of the musical numbers are actually being sung yeah in reality they're all supported by orchestral music you want to have enough in my opinion ambiguity to allow the viewer to get swept up in the fantasy of the song that's taking place because musical is a very specific like art form and it's very silly and there's a bunch of kind of rules that you sort of have to um play by to allow it to work. And one is that it's sort of like, if it's happening in a movie, if the musical bit is happening, it has to be the totality of what's happening on screen.

But in this, Arthur Fleck several times will just kick into a number. And then you've got Steve Coogan looking at him like, what are you doing? Yeah, or the prison guard's sort of half joining in. If it was a, like, think about Mary Poppins. Burt starts singing, all the chimney sweeps are in. Exactly. We've got animated penguins come and join in. The entire universe is on his side.

He's stepping in time. He's cat, cat, you know? And everyone gets on board. But in this, it's like everyone is observing a musical unfolding in a movie. Except for one cut in the corner who is doing bad piano mime that is like. I know, but that's just like, that's very, uh, Arkham Asylum like, oh, and also everyone in here is kind of crazy. This guy thinks he's playing piano. You don't have to be crazy to be kept here, but it helps.

Exactly. Exactly. But what I really wanted to, I know, you've got, you've got so many notes. This looks like the Zodiac Keller has been scribbling on your fucking note. You know, this is how, this is how I, um, make notes. I was watching, there were two things I noticed, which are not relevant to the movie, but were a fascination. Number one, your note-taking technique in terms of layout and efficiency, I was in absolute admiration for. Thank you.

Thank you. I thought it was a beautiful technique. Thanks, Scott. I loved, I know that I could see there was a very codified system that you were abiding, that you could clearly follow. Secondly, the way you hold a pen is beyond anything I've ever seen before. It is absolutely mental. Your thumb is not involved whatsoever.

Never seen your hand a hold a pen before. Excuse me. We're getting it on cam now. You do have an interesting grip. The thumb is, sorry, yeah, my mistake, the thumb is involved, but it's like you're holding the whole thing, you're holding it almost perfectly perpendicular to the pad. your handwriting's great it's lovely handwriting the result is there but it is an interesting road to get there

this is how I hold a pen and I think everyone where you're putting pressure between your index and your thumb why could you never do that it didn't feel right so you got taught how to write at clown school do you know what this is how because we had to do written work I went to drama school as well as clown school and we had to do written work and Like, you know, because it is a tertiary edge.

We didn't go to either. We all wound up on the same podcast. And look, and I used to hand in mind maps like this. And they were like, Your Honey, you can't hold in my hand in my maps anymore. Before we get into the... Why were they clubbing your sales like that? I know. Before we get into the movie, can you tell us a little about clown school

and how you feel your community was represented in this film? I wouldn't be crystal clear. I went to clown school for exactly one month. Is that long or not long by clown school standards? No, no, if the full course is two years. Okay. But I did actually go twice. So can I ask, did you have a positive experience when you were there for a month?

Yes. And I did, I also went to clown school and I did the form melodrama. Which is a module. Which is a module. It's a module of clown school. And you can do that in a month. Some say. Some can.

Do other clowns recognize you as a fully qualified? qualified clown. See, this is the thing, is that I've, I'm, I've got one foot in each world. Right. No, that's evasive. I would say, if you did one month. Mix bag. Mix bag.

If I don't treat the clown community as a monolith. And don't other the clown community. I'm not uttering the clown community. You are. No, I'm not, I'm just interested that you spent one month out of a two-year course at clown school. And you had a positive experience. I did. And you said that's enough.

Well, no, I had one month in Clown School and then I went back and did Clown School again, but in Fungare, not in Paris. They're different. Oh, yeah. Wait, how did you do clowning in Fangare? John Bolton runs it, who is a subsidiary of an older clown school. Okay. Yeah. It's a lot of clown schools.

And... Yeah, yeah. No, there's two rival clown schools in Paris. Did you know this? No. There's Philippe Goli. and then there's Lecoq and Lecoq and Lecoq and Philippe used to teach together and then they had a huge fight and they parted ways and now they have rival schools.

They have like different clowning pedagogies? Yes, but it's the same, it's got the same route but different strands. And where did you go? This is genuinely. Lecoq is really hard to get into. It's very serious. This is how different sex within like Christianity and stuff. Oh, yeah.

We had a church. We had a disagreement and then we took some of our followers and started a brand new package. And now there's like. the church what is it the branch Davidians

so but my I agree my instinct to sort of quantify how much for clan

you are by how many months of an education you picked up is inaccurate and unfair but what

I want to know is in the month of clown school you did in France and however long you spent

with John Bolton and Fangere a minute what the John Bolton the John Bolton what do you think of the

representation of your community in this film Okay, what I reckon is I think they've gone to Kani. And clowns and Karnies are, sometimes there's a Venn diagram where the Twain do meet, but it's different. This is interesting, because the kind of clown that you're dressed as right now, I, the layperson, would sort of associate with a carnival form of clown. That's right, but I came as a clown vibe for the movie.

Like, I did the blue makeup. You're matching Hali, Hali Quinn. I'm supporting my girl, Stephanie Gimmonauta. And as a clown, do you recognize Arthur Fleck's Joker as a clown? No. But I will say this. I think the Joker is a mask and the clown nose is often called the smallest mask. The smallest mask.

And I will say this. I also do have, it's somewhere at my parents' house, so I was going to bring it and it was too much. I have a clown nose that was made to my nose measurements. Really? Yeah, because I did a clown show. That toured New Zealand with capital E. Yes. That you devised in a month?

No, no. I was on tour for about eight months. With this show? Yeah, in 2020. Did it do well? The kids loved it and it was the pandemic so nothing else was going on. Fuck yeah. RIP, capital E?

RIP capital E. Okay. I'm still using it. You love the kitty shows. No, I just mean every time I start a sentence with a word beginning. with E. Hey. One of the most dismissive sounds I've ever heard.

What do you reckon is more dismissive going A or going ooh? The first one, the one you just hit. Because it's sort of trying to be nice, but it's really not. There's two things I want to ask you about. One is just the Lady Gaga-ness of it all, because I find it so interesting that you really love Lady Gaga. I love her. And yet, and I think your call.

critique of her in this movie can come from a place of intense knowledge, respect and love of her. Yeah, it does. So I want to hear about that. And then I want us to get into the relationship between Arthur and Harley, because we were sort of talking a little bit about that during the screening and it felt like interesting

to remain. And I know that you'll be able to talk, you know, at length with great knowledge and intensity. Once you get started, so before we do, I just want to say, perceiving it through, you know, the eyes of a Gaga fan, which I'm not really affiliation. added with anyone in this movie.

I'm not necessarily a fan of any of the individuals. Not a means like that's activist either. Or the intellectual property. But I think one of the issues with this movie, if I put my Gaga fan hat on, would be that her flavour, it's not possible to mix it in strong enough for it to justify its inclusion. It's impossible for her impact and talents and ability to override like the drab sort of lack of pace yeah that just the

entirety of the the movie it's like what what is she doing here is kind of the feeling like Harley quit honestly that could have been anyone yeah that could have absolutely been anyone

yeah and I think that that exactly as you say guy that comes down to the fact that there's no plot and it looks nice and nothing happens until the absolute end it is weird that you say that because I agree but like Lady Gaga sing

in this. She's got obviously an incredible voice but it's so forgettable. It's like it kind of doesn't like because of all the lack of infrastructure in the film to support a big number doing well it's kind of and it's so weird how lackluster it is

because like that's sunny and sheer bit that they do where they do the number like where they do it back and forth where they're in the sound stage with the kind of dick have it curtains and it's all that's when they're singing BJs and they do that back and forth. It looks really it looks beautiful and like lady gaga's here and you know all the rest of it and it still sucks it feels to me like

a vanity project for her yeah so okay talk about that because we don't know very much about garga the person okay so stephanie stephani germanotta thank you so much she are trained at tish which is it is an acting school but also musical theater it's a prestigious performing art school in new york and then she famously dropped out to pursue her career in singing in the clubs, Lady Gaga and Lady Starlight. What do you know about her as a student of Tish? So at Tish, this girl recently came out.

I think it was only a couple of years ago and basically said that she was the most annoying bitch in the class and they would all be sitting sort of, you know, they'd have their move for class and they'd be all having lunch. And Gaga would be on the piano in the foyer absolutely

fully belting top volume. And everyone else is just trying to have a salmon sushi. She was, I think they, and I will say they ostracized her and bullied her for it, which would 100% occur in a New Zealand drama school. Yeah. And do you think is that behaviour, not that bullying's ever justified, but do you understand where it came from? Oh yeah, she's on all the time. She's on, on, on.

Oh, you mean to bully or Gaga? To ostracise her for this behaviour. Are they within their rights of students? To be honest, I want to say that it's not warranted. but if my classmate was absolutely belting a fucking show tune while you're trying to put your feet up.

While you're on break. Well, I'm on break and we've all got eating disorders and I'm like, this is my one chance to get a calorie in. I would be fucking livid. I'm here licking a lemon ice cream. I'm here having a cotton ball dipped in orange juice. This is an interesting story because there's quite an Americanness to it

both the intensity being annoying and then the drive and I suppose the actual reservoir of talent somewhere within yourself to override that and force force yourself and your influence upon you know the public consciousness so she drops out of tish starts performing in the club's lady gaga and lady starlight what's lady starlight I actually don't know much about lady starlight that's another person who she teamed up with and they were sort of club kids on the lower east side and then lady starlight drops off and And then Gaga's career kind of, she gets signed, then it fucks out. We don't need the full, but.

So part of the picture is nice context because she is a source of fascination because I know she has such a hold on a huge, you know, her fans are absolutely. What was the recent concert? Was it in Rio where she like broke records for the, the team's just fucking. That's not a surprise because any time of public figure posts, concerts or dates all of the comments that come to Brazil but even so maybe we should it was like hundreds of thousands of people like at a live concert for Gaga and so so she's in the she's in the clubs she's she's coming up yeah basically her career kicks off as a pop star

my personal theory is there's this itch that's left unscratched for the stage she's always wanted to be an actor. Really? Here we go. When she got House of Gucci, which is a film, I cannot recommend less. Okay.

That's interesting because not long before we started recording, you told us you boys have to do this for your next project. Oh, that's, and I stand by that. So both of those things are true at the same time. They're not mutually exclusive. Do not watch this, and also watch this as many times as you can stomach.

One or the other. No, not in the most. middle you either go 55 times or never um she did house of Gucci and she trained with lee strasberg who was like lee strasberg was the a theater school in new york that's like it's method acting it's where marlin brando went marilyn monroe went there it's all very serious very internal very intense um and there's this amazing is it salma hyac or penelope crows that's in house of Gucci this is racist that i'm mixing them up can you please look down i think it's Salma Hayek, there's an interview with Lady Gaga,

and she's describing how she was like, she basically says the most garbled nonsense about how she's like writing letters to her character and she let go of her own personality to absorb the character and the co-star is just sitting there going like, you can see them being like, I'm going to explore myself. We're back at Tisch and she's back on the keys. She's back on the keys and she's so sincere and so earnest.

exciting and intriguing to me tell me about a star is born and her assent through that and also the press tour and what that tells us about her as a person. Okay, so with Star is Born they kind of, in all of the interviews around Star is Born she was like

it was really hard for her when they shot the beginning stuff. What's her character? Has I think a character's called Ellie or something. Whatever. It doesn't matter. She was like, yeah and they didn't want me to wear makeup. So I was vulnerable. And so they shot all the first bit with her no makeup and kind of greasy hair.

And she was like, it absolutely, she said, it changed me as a person. Transformative. Clean funnel. Transformat him. And then obviously, Astara's Born did really well. Also, let it be crystal clear. A Star is born is a remake. It is not a new story.

Oh, a remake of remake of remake. A remake of a remake. But also, it's Bradley Cooper was sort of really helming that, right? And I feel like he's almost Gentleman Garga where he's very self-serious and was trying to break out of all his rom-com and frat-boy comedy movies

and go, actually, I, because what was the composer that he played? Where he got a prosthetic nose to play a Jewish? The maestro. Meestro. Leo, something. That movie. I'm just actually also drawing a connection

between Star is Born and Joker 2 because Bradley Cooper and Todd Phillips would have discussed the casting of Lady Gaga because Bradley Cooper was the lead in the hangover movies which is also I mean the more I watch is the more insane it is to me that Todd Phillips was ever mucking around in other territory He did the hangovers

Yeah he went from the hangovers to this Yes Oh that explains so much Tell us more That's why it's so there's no nuance whatsoever Because it's like I He's like, I know comedy. He's like, I'm going to do something serious.

And it's so self-serious and so one-note gritty because that's what he thinks. Drama is. Beautiful drama should be. Forgetting that actually it's more beautiful and more serious when there's a multitude of flavors. Can't you see these two, like Bradley Cooper and Todd Phillips, who stand on the millions of dollars they made helming a very successful comedy franchise, having a very intense serious conversation. Shelly could be saying, I promise if you cast Gaga, she will bring you something that you will not find anywhere else.

That is a dinner conversation that would make me want to put a revolver in my fucking mouth. Like, I can just imagine those two going up their own assholes about the importance of taking this beloved DC universe, you know, character and grounding it in the real world and adding dimensionality to this in-celled superhero. But why did they make it a musical? Because that seems to be the only selling point. But it is, because it is conceptually, it is something to discuss. And do you know what? Purely conceptually, it is something to discuss. Yeah.

I'm making a musical about Joker and Lady Gaga co-stars as Harley Quinn. I'm like, that's so interesting. Me too. I want to see that. And then I did see it three times. I'm like, this shouldn't have come out. Yeah. They should have shelved this.

Up Todd Phillips's ass. So, but I just want to go back to the Star is born press tour because. only thing I picked up, I've not actually seen the movie, is Gaga is offering this fantastic kind of soundbite at every opportunity where she talks about there can be this many people in a room and it all takes as one to see you and tell you. And to me, this is what piques my curiosity about who she is as a person and what she understands of the world, because she is so across, like she's such a public figure, she's been in the public eye for so long, she understands interviews, she understands how this works. Like, is it just a media

strategy, is she in on the joke of her doing this over and over again? Does she not understand the way this is going to read to people, like, following the story? Like, what is her understanding of what she's doing when she used that one soundbite and 100 press interviews? I reckon she said it once, got

an amazing response. Bradley's going, you're so profound, babe. Like, that's, like crying, crying, and she's like, fuck yeah, goes for another bite of the apple. And then another bite at the apple. And then another bite at the apple. Right, she's

And again, and again, and then she's, and then it gets the point where she can't not say it. And if people make fun of her for doing that, is that funny to her or does that wound her? I reckon, I'd like to think that she is a sensitive, smart soul. So I think she would be wounded, but also she's American, so all publicity is good publicity. Yes, there is a uniquely American element about everything you're describing about her sort of behavior at Tisch and on the press drunket circuit. It still doesn't answer my question of whether. or not she is capable of laughing at herself I think she is

I've seen her I've seen an interview with her on Graham Norton when she was much younger and she has this insane outfit on like crazy even for Lady Gaga crazy and she is so personable and smart and wissy and she's in on the joke

but then later in life it does feel like she is less in on the joke the colae do you think yeah and she also did a Vegas residency for two long. How long she did Vegas residency for? I'm going to say two to three years. Wow. And she tried to release a jazz album with Tony. Well, she

didn't try to. She did release a jazz album with Tony Bennett. Yeah. Which is also interesting because it's very... I don't find that to be incongruent with the rest of her career because, like, you know, she's... Oh, she's reincarnation queen. Yeah. And she loves a stunt. She absolutely loves a stunt. There's footage of

her, she's literally flying in a private jet to Greece and she's like, while she's on the plane, she's like, I need to get off the plane dressed as Venus. And so throws on a wig, fake tans on the plane, does a full beat. And she looks amazing.

But she can't, it's all part of the artistry. She can't stop performing. She's trapped. She's trapped by theatricality, to which I say, I relate that. I've got respect for it.

Is she happy with this? Is she happy with her performance in this and how this movie's come out? Do you know what? I'm talking to you like, you're a medium with access to. I know it's like what I'm seeing from you is how the court appointed psychological assessor

for Arthur Fleck is like, can I talk to Joker now? You're like, so Gaga, how did you think the performance was in the movie? There's Gaga with us in this room? My direct line. And we share a star sign with both Aries. You are tapped in. So what did she think of herself in this? What do you think of yourself in this?

What I think about my performance in the Joker 2, Folliarder, is I, Watching it, I'm looking at two actors who absolutely wet their pants day and day out over the process. I reckon it felt so good to shoot all that. I reckon all of the rehearsals, all the intimacy, all the thoughts feelings, felt so good. And I reckon the product is honestly dog nuggets. Can you imagine being like a lighting grip on the set of this?

Or just like the sound guy or something? just like, Jesus fucking Christ. But then I feel like they'd all have drunk the collade on set. You'd have to. I don't know, crew, I think I've got a romantic vision of crew in my head that they're all

nice and detached. Everyone's just kind of a blue collar professional. But if the intensity... Not to say that the artistry isn't there in their own stock and trade, but just like they've got a healthy amount of like, okay, and now here's... Yes, but if the intensity from the

core, like, creative team, if they are emanating such self-belief that what they are making is worthy or, you know, lofty, it is inevitable that that, because, you know. Everyone's in church. Yeah. Everyone's in church. It will touch them. And also they're going, I'm working with Wachim. Okay.

I'm working with. And, and Todd Phillips. And Todd Phillips. Do you know that one of the funniest line, the hardest I've laughed at a line in cinema was in old school. I think when, I can't remember which character, Owen Wilson, no, Luke Wilson finds out his wife is having, and if he comes home from a business trip early, and he finds out that his wife is sleeping with someone else or, you know. No, there is a couple who are blindfolded, and they come out of his closet to quote Luke Wilson like a goddamn jack-in-box ready to double team my wife. That's right. And then, so Luke Wilson's melding down about this. This is in a movie that Tom Phillips directed. And then there's a movie that Tom Phillips directed. And then there's a,

knock at the door and he opens the front door and it's Todd Phillips and he's standing there and says I'm here for the gang bang and it is so it leveled me when I saw that I thought it was you know obviously a lot younger yeah I thought it was so funny it is crazy to me for men of a certain age that cameo of Todd Phillips saying I'm here for the gang bang is like you know bumper sticker buy the t-shirt like it exists original meme it exists next to this like that is the same the guy who is here for the gang bang is also the guy who has dragged me through an asylum for an hour and a half to say nothing but the way apart from the last sentence you said i'm actually like

have so much respect for the creative ambition of the guy who said i'm here for the gang bang to go and make a fucking musical with lady gaga about joker this is yeah this is the worst pillow talk of my life this is after the after the fact you've had sex with an attractive stranger and now you're talking to them and you're like oh you are interminable it's interesting that both of you haven't seen Joker because not only is this Todd Phillips he made old school

it's also Todd Phillips who made Joker which like I don't remember every detail from it but I think I threw it twice at the movies and I remember thinking it was a good movie and not just because it was good representation of my family it was for you it was absolutely for you what is this what's this movie's relationship

to that movie what is Joker to think of Joker. You have very aptly, I think, described it several times now where this is a two and one quarter hour conversation about a good movie that happened three years ago, which is an insane way to spend $100 million, which I'm assuming was the budget. It could have been a podcast. It should have been a podcast. This should have been a podcast.

And this should be a movie. High concept. One thing I will say when I was watching the trial this morning is we're talking. a lot about how this isn't a good movie and in the world of the show they talk a lot about how this is the first trial being broadcast on TV and I will say in the world of the movie while I don't enjoy

the experience of watching it as a TV spectacle it would be good TV being alive in that timeline and watching this trial take place it would be fantastic television yeah you're not wrong and I kind of do think because I think we will keep

reaching a reminder this is watch 3 of 14 for us That's what we call a joker's dozen. We are going... Wait, so I have to pause and say, I wrote that joke 30 minutes into the film and then looks at it over and goes,

check that out. He's a professional. I do fear you lifted the curtain up slightly too high. We're going to be seeking meaning in this film perpetually and at least until the end of Thursday night.

No, you have to. There's meaning to be had. There's attempts are being made. I think the whole, I think it's like that Malcolm McLennan, what's his fucking name? The media theorist, the medium is the message, is something he's trying to get across in

this. It's like, we need to think about the insoules who murder everyone for a change. I think that's one of the things that is a balloon being floated by this movie. And the other one is like it's a very odd interrogation of fame, which is something that has been the constant conversation in media for the last 30 years that everyone wants to...

Basically, since Andy Warhol said it, like everyone wants their 15 minutes, we've been talking about that phenomenon and in the context of social media and stuff. And this movie is making, like, I think a really dumb attempt at exploring that, like, the allure of fame and being in the spotlight and being a star and performing and da-da. It's like, yeah, but this... you're not adding anything new. It's so boring. And it's also like antiquated

because the movie's taking place in the 50s. But also the 70s. Maybe the 70s. And then one guy was in a supreme hoodie. True. True. There is one time traveler. So we're in 1971 with one time traveler

in the two-hour movie. But it's like it's a boring interrogation of a modern. It's like Michael J. Fox playing Chuck Berry and back to the future. The kids weren't ready. They were not really. But doing it wrong. and setting it in the wrong time. I think you're falling into the trap the movie is laid,

which is... Trying to talk about it in the terms it wants to be discussed. Not even that. It is to believe that there is anything to be taken from this. Well, this is that thing of when you look into the void long enough, the void looks back at you. And I think, you know, what can we possibly do to retain our sanity but try to draw meaning from this?

Can I ask you this? If someone spends two hours and 18 minutes telling you they're interesting, does that make them interesting? No. That is the wrong question. to survive a week of joker two reviews how do you keep your brain alive and I think going to the gym and attempting to create meaning out of the mess

is the only if I succumb to the reality that there is no means to be had then then I am I if I do that now at watch number three there are 14 individual realities for you to live through and then you zoom out and you discuss the one sort of totality reality that you have drawn from their 14 individual experiences

you're allowed to watch this and feel despair can I say this? I woke up this morning with a sty in my eye I think my body is trying to physically biologically prevent me from watching the film at this early stage It also could be because the classic used to be a porn cinema and Lord knows what's on that stage

It is not a guy I will say that Can I that's actually just to I know that we're probably getting towards the tail end of our analysis For this screening But I do have a question about We're in the green room here at the classic Now this is a place I've sat and I've felt fantastic

It's a place I've sat and I've felt terrible Everyone's got their own relationship to this to this performance space Johanna relative to the different times You've sat in the green room How do you feel sitting in here to watch this movie today? Is this more or less comfortable than you feel before you walk out on stage? Or how is it different?

Okay, 100% more comfortable. I've got a coffee. I had a toast. The clown dress is so comfortable. Your own mask. Yeah, I've got my own mask. And I don't have to get up on the stage. There's no adrenaline in my body whatsoever, except for moments of despair and rage at the film.

Right. So a scale of 1 to 10, 8 out of 10 comfortable. It's pretty good. Yeah. Well, I don't, I'm not exactly comfortable before I perform or afterwards, but I am excited. Yeah. And I don't. You don't feel excited.

I don't. I don't. There was something that I wanted to say, one moment, caller. Yeah, yeah. Grab your notes because they are extensive. Yeah, extensive. Okay. And they feel important.

And while some of us have 11 more opportunities to reflect on what we've just seen. Yeah. Some only have this one. Some only have one. First of all, the thread that was fascinating to me is how they really hammered it down our fucking throat, that it's all entertainment. And like you walk in. They literally sing it at us many times. Many times.

In the cartoon at the start, there's like sweet charities on the wall. And then there's a shot later where it's like his fantasy and it's like the roof of sweet charity. What is sweet charity? Oh, a terrible Bob Fosse musical. Absolutely bombed. but there's moments of genius in it. Yeah, the wall, the walkway to the set during the animated film that opens this

is peppered with different, you know, classic entertainment films of the time. There's Charlie Chaplin's Modern Times is up there. A couple others I can't remember. And as you say, so there's a poster there which telegraphs later an homage to it when they're dancing on the rooftop. But all of their homagees are telegraphed so strongly.

You're like, look it, we've got a thing. That's right. Like, it's like, fuck off. Doing, like, doing something doesn't mean something. Exactly. Showing us a poster and then telling us you've seen the movie later on in the movie doesn't mean anything to me as an audience member. It's also not plot. That's not story.

It's not story. It's very, like, it's very student, it's very cinema 101 go out and make a short film. Yeah. You know, and show us some influences. Yeah, 100%. Back to the notes. I'd also like to say. that the joker is a pussy.

And I'd love to discuss his relationship with Harley Quinn. Yeah, we simply must. I think this is an absurd representation of the prison wife community. Go on. But I also, in ways potentially accurate in that I don't, I personally don't understand it, but it does exist. The obsession with someone who is incarcerated or pre-othered. And you're like, I, well, actually, maybe I do understand this where it's like, I could save you. But then she's got really insane expectations of him.

Absolutely. She's fallen in love with the mask or what she perceives him to be. Commentary on fame. Exactly. And I'm sure we've all experienced that, you guys. I've chased many a lovely lady into prison who got famous by murdering several innocent people. But then in the bit in the court where he sort of takes off the mask, so to speak, and says, I am the Joker.

There is no Joker separate to. me like I just I did all of these bad things then she leaves well important seemingly minor distinction but actually critical he says there is no joker so he's denying yeah we go he's just saying it's after with makeup on yeah what she's in love with is the joker and he's saying the joke he doesn't exist but then he's then forced to become the joker by the fact that he's found guilty on all charges and then the lookalike sort of bust out of court room and so say all of us Guy Montgomery from the top, right? I'm just trying to make a point.

Like an elbow drop onto an attempt. I sang it once. The commentary took longer. The commentary took longer. But, sorry, back to my point. He is forced to become the Joker by way of circumstance. He then goes back to Harley Quinn and she's cut her hair off and rejects him. Yes.

So she's transformed too. Which is what every woman does to my fellas, my beautiful boys. We try it and we try it and we try it and we try our harder. She's out of her Harley Quisselis. They promised the world. I said that once in the middle of this and I'm so glad it took some roots. It's her Harley Quisseless. She's coming out of her Harley Quisitus.

To turn into a beautiful Harley Quinn. But also she's pursuing him hard out. He's kind of giving her nothing. Oh yeah. And then he's like, I'm in love with her. This is, but it's not communicated that to her at all. This is a point that is, one of the few points they don't over labour in this. They just sort of mention it.

So we might have glossed over a tiny bit. So she is actually in this film, the parents of like kind of suburban middle class people. And they even talk about briefly, there is a mention, I think, of the fact that she's not poor. So she presents herself as being poor, abused by her dad, wrong side of the tracks. fucked up in the head She grew up on the upper west side Her dad is a doctor And she went and studied psychology at Yale

At grad school She's like every student at Elam Exactly Exactly Right and that's like that's it It's classic So and it's like Fetitisation

It's a very in-cell vision of like what women are It's like women will tell you That they're fucked up in the head Just like you But it turns out their lines are actually speak on that Tim because much like Johanna told us that you know she's representing a community from this film her culture is not our costume

I think it is your place to tell us on behalf of the insales how you feel about the representation in this movie yeah well I it's crazy to me that like Todd Phillips a guy who's had a very successful film career is a closeted insale and it's so nice to see him you know use his platform for good to really highlight a marginalized community are all in cells closeted some of them are too loud I'd say some of them should go back in

shut the hook them up oh no I have one thing the one thing that I felt personally attacked by is when they refer to the Joker as a former clown who's trying to be a stand-up comedian and I was like that's where I jump out

that tiny sliver of a window a little too close to home was too close to home yeah to try sorry I might have mention I was going to say this at the very start of the episode and then forgot but I've remembered. It is insane. That guy and I somehow didn't pick this up on the first two viewings. Apparently, on the most atrocious sex scene committed to salivode...

That is the worst, the worst fuck I have seen in my life. It's so gross. And I've been on Samuel Tickin's Pornhublogging. Okay? That was horrific. That impregnated Harley Quinn. Three pumps. and done. He whimpered. She said, I'm pregnant. Twice.

During, yeah, during a visit about halfway through when they're talking through the glass and she's left. And he's kind of confronting her about her background. It's not long after the conversation about her parents and growing up with money. Yeah. And then she says, I'm pregnant, which I think is, I think, first of all, was not mentioned in the first two movies, has been introduced. You think they brought it up when your Hannah came in the room. Well, I just think generously giving us something more to sink our teeth into, if we so choose. And secondly, it's absolutely She's lying. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

That's the in-cell community. She's trying to trap you with her pregnancy, with her womanly pussy. Exactly. And that's why, again, peace and love to Todd Phillips really representing for my boys. But also, that sex scene is crazy because it occurs when he's in solitary confinement. Yeah, yes. She kind of, she kind of, well, so is it a fantasy? And this might.

might be, and so to a previous season of our podcast where we watch, we are your friends 52 times over the course of a year, so sick. I refused to admit the fact that Zach Efron and Emily Radishkowski had sex, even though there is all but penetration shown on screen. I feel like in this, no, but we don't know that. Our crossroads for this one is I don't think she's in solitary with him. Harley is given the run of the place.

What is really unusual is by all accounts she, as just a normal person, with maybe some slightly affluent parents, but does not have standing to get to dictate the terms of every space she enters. And yet in this, she chooses when to come into Arkham, she chooses when to leave, choose when to come back and

says, one of the guards let me in. She gets a police escort to the courtroom later on. I just think that the treatment of her sort of celebrity in this or, you know, where she can and can't go, is insane. And I do think that she went. I think that sex scene is real.

You think the sex scene is real, but she's lying about the pregnancy, yeah. Because don't you think it would, I mean, like, unless she got an abortion without it being addressed in the movie, don't you think when she, at the end, when she abandons him, that her being pregnant, you know, with his child, if that is true, would be some feature of the, would take up any space. But, like, otherwise, why are we having the pregnancy introduced? Like, what is it adding? Dog, you have given this movie so much. credit to think that like

the fact they haven't wrapped it up on screen for us means something. It just means they're bad filmmakers. It just means Todd doesn't know how to write a musical or this particular film. He knows. It's not a musical or it's barely a story. I agree. In fact my quote yesterday was I don't think this is a musical

or anything. Or anything but I also will defend Guy and say Tim you were the one that was like I need to find meaning and I think that's what guy's done. I've not found meaning. But you're searching for it. I've found something to discuss.

Is it Sisyphus who must constantly push the boulder up hill? It is a Sisyphesian effort. Sisyphian. And it's Prometheus who has to have his liver pulled out by the legal. There's a rating system in place here. You can give the film two thumbs up, one thumb up, no thumbs, one thumb down or two thumbs down. What is your score? One thumb down.

Okay, Tim. I'm impressed you managed to grab that whole construct. Have you not seen the way my mind? works. I think my brain is fucking fried. Oh, we didn't talk about Kath and Kim. Talk about Keth and Kim. Fuck.

Okay, the worst and most egregious part of the movie for me is when he stands up in the court and sings The Joker as Me, which is the Kath and Kim theme song, which I will never have besmirched in my presence again. It was fucking horrendous. Does Todd Phillips know about Kath and Kim? If you don't know about Kath and Kim, kill yourself. Because if, I'm sorry, you're putting Lady Gaga. in a film, which automatically means

gay audience. Who is Kath and Kim's audience, if not gay audience? They were on it like that. The F-A-G-G-G-O-T. You can't say it once it's fell in the next time. I love that you've bookended your appearance on our show with the F-slip.

And that's clowning, you know. That's Goli-A. That's truth to power. That's John Bolton. Do you know what? Given the presence of Johanna and the first watch of the day, this is a no-thumb screening for me. This is the best it's gone.

That's good. And if you watch me, watch the movie, you would know that I still found it incredibly challenging. Oh, you definitely did. But it's no thumbs from me. Highlight was that joke. Well, I'd also like to do it. I mean, we haven't mentioned our shining lights,

but there is a minor moment that you might have sang. Go for it. Opening animated film, I've enjoyed it every time. When the police characters come in to arrest the Joker on the set of the talk show, they're going, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, there's a sound effect of the three of them sort of as they walk. It's a real tropey treatment of the cops. And it's funny to me.

Shining lights are the one, but you genuinely enjoyed. Oh, okay, cool, cool, cool. I'll go first if you want to have some time to think about one. Yeah, please, please. We should have warned you, sorry. So mine was when Harley lights the fire in the choir so that she can get Arthur out of there, and they make an attempt to escape. There is, when the fire first outrages,

the first person while they're watching the movie, to observe it is the guy who clearly is like sort of mentally disturbed and he's just looking at the fire biting his nails, but not like telling anyone or doing anything. And it's just a night, I like it, it's funny. I'm impressed to find a shining light out of a featured extra because they are so few at, like, the moments to look for the background characters to offer you something.

I know. The courtroom is chocker. I know, but there's so much time. and there. The window of opportunity for them to give you anything is so small. I'm really proud of you and excited by the idea of looking at these people and screenings to come. Thanks man. I've got two shining lights. Love to hear both of them. One, the

first one is Lady Gaga's costume in the wedding fantasy. I loved the dress. You really do. I thought the outfit was sleigh and the sequence was visually beautiful even if it meant fuck all. The second shining light is the voiceover guy The baritone prisoner Oh yeah yeah yeah

What does he say I wish I'd written down his thing He's like go for it Arthur or something He's like you go man He's like you sing that song And actually no I have another While Arthur Fleck does the most dog shit Never stop

Rendition of I can't even remember what song he does in that one Don't worry about it It's odds are For once in my life It might be It's for once in my life Yeah yeah I think it is For once

also they play the Saints Go Marching in seven times Yeah And I appreciate that data point Because it is an insane choice That adds up ultimately to nothing So it's nice to have it on the record As a feature of the movie

Because anyone who's listening to this Who's actually watched it We'll be saying You know much like Millhouse Watching Itchy Scratchy and Pucci When are they going to get to the Saints Go Marching in factory Johanna has acknowledged it Thank you

You're most welcome But it's like you can't just do it again and pray for meaning. I know, no, no, it's a motif. Three times is nothing. Seven times is a musical motif. Well, get happy they play thrice, and then they've got Lime to the Moon, and then they've just got all the standards.

Yeah. Someone is wanting to suck Frank Sinatra's dick back there. Just quickly. What do you think of the fact that there are sung songs in this musical, but then also a lot of just, like, studio recorded big songs? Bizarre. It's not usual, eh? No, you should.

You go one or the other. You should choose one and stick with it, I guess, but nothing. I would say that this is like a dirty musical. They've just done what they want. Okay, subgenre. Yeah, it's dirty musical. To you, Tim, to finish our episode, what is your rating? I'm right there with you.

We psychically bonded. It's zero thumbs from me. All right. Well, huge thank you to Todd Phillips for the offering and to Johanna Cosgrove for grazing with us. Thank you so much for having me. If you'd like some more of Johanna, catch her on her podcast, Rats in the see there or on a flight to pie here today a few hours and if you'd like to see some more of us we'll join you on our next exciting watch and review of joker two what is folly what is it

what does it mean folly well a dirt is like two folly a do it's like what is folly isn't it like calamity no i thought you'd know off the top of your head no but it's like it's like a it's like a it's like a it's like a dance for two or something but this is the other thing type of In French, nothing else is French adjacent. Not a scare it. The mystery deepens. I guess we'll never know what it means. The worst idea of all time.

A fresh way to lose your mind. Your boys are bad with what you need. The worst things then life are free. That was a dearer of all time. That was a dearer of a time. A brand new way to wreck your mind. What's the worst idea of all? Time!

Ah! Wee!