The Worst Idea Of All Time - 10: Grease Lightning Monocle w/ Abby Howells

Episode Date: January 22, 2026

Dr Abby Howells, PhD (whose doctoral thesis is fittingly 'Performing prison: How is life on the inside portrayed to the outside world?') joins Tim and Guy to praise Joker 2 for one reason only: "It is not as racist as prison movies typically are." Apart from this silver lining, there's a lot of critical clouds on the horizon of Folie à deux - a fact that will shock anyone who's listened to other episodes of this series. More importantly though - we get to know about Abby's portrayal as the Cowardly Lion and the history of the worst play of all time.If you think this project has ANY VALUE AT ALL, please consider supporting us via twioat.substack.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

idea of all time Hi everyone, it's Guy Montgomery here. I'm with Tim and we've just watched what's the name of the movie? It's called Joker 2, Folly Adieu for the 10th time. Little baby's all grown up. It's in year 5, going to year 6.

Next screening will be, well next screening will be year 6 and then it's going to intermediate. By the time we've finished with this bad boy, it's going to be in its second or third year of high school. Pampos. Possibly fucking. That's right.

Wow, you reckon? Could be. Our little movies all grown up. Now, Tim, may I be honest with you? Our last episode, I thought you put forward an extremely cohesive mental breakdown. And so I have reached deep into the well of friends and also comedians. Solutions, I feel like. You're trying to fix a problem, and the problem is Tim bad.

I would like to offer an intermediary between you and the film as we were joined for this 10th screening by one of our nation's finest comics, Dr. Abbey Howells. Hello, and thank you for having me on the podcast. It's me, the little boy from the bottom of the well. Abby, gobble that microphone up, and I'm so delighted to have you here. Thank you for joining us for the screening. I fell off the boat, and you are my lifesaver. Hey, it's a pleasure to be here, but I...

You couldn't even start the sentence. I hated that movie so much. I, we really, I went to great lengths to silence myself to not colour your experience of the movie. You didn't say anything. I want to open as well with context. There's so many reasons you're here. A, it's very helpful having a friend here for me personally. But B, your PhD is specifically in women in prisons depicted on film, right?

Yes, yes. So prison depicted in film is my area of. expertise. Which is essentially this movie. So everything has worked out great for having you here and being able to lend your academic knowledge to this text. Another entry into the canon of the prison film of Joker to Foliadur. Would this have fit inside of your research for your PhD?

Would this be a worthy text? No, because I would not have mentioned this text because there's nothing in it worth mentioning. Like, it's not offensive enough to be interesting. It's like, I wouldn't have mentioned this because it doesn't have any of the, it doesn't have any tropes of the prison film. I just want you to tread carefully because we are watching, you know, I understand it's very easy to be disparaging about this film,

but at the same time, we have certainly hitched our wagon to Joker 2, Folly Adieu, for the time being. Yes, yes. In fact, I don't know if you copped a lot of our schedule today, but immediately after we stopped talking to you, we're going to be joining Jokutu again So the slings and arrows you're aiming at the movie

Fear as they may be There's going to be a few sort of There's going to be some collateral damage And I don't want you to hold back I want you to tell us how you feel I want you to tell us how it was for you But I just want you to know That you know

Our work is not done This is to me This is the man who had his head in his hands I would say 45% of the movie I've been around you quite a lot Like I've been around you Guy Montgomery We've done comedy fest together

You know month long things Things quite strenuous Some stressful situations Filming a television show You know I've seen you in all these environments I've never seen you worse than this I've never seen you like this before

You actually when you walked in before We'd even seen the film You said both of you Have an energy I've never experienced From either of you Both of you were like You know you were in a dream And I was in reality

It's not a bad way to describe how it feels being inside the project as well Look, you're entitled to your opinion It kills me I was trying to, not even trying to you I understood I was being normal towards you when you arrived I thought I was putting on a happy face for one of a better turn of phrase Yeah, well that's what the Joker thought he was doing too Yeah

Wrong on both counts Wrong on both counts So let's start at the beginning Yeah What'd you think of the movie, Abby? I have never seen such a somber dirge of a flick that's based on a dude who wears a fedora. You know what I mean?

Spiritually speaking. Yeah, spiritually speaking, the character wears a purple suit and a fedora and is like, wang-a-wag-a-wag-and he sends like chattering teeth to nip the bottoms of enemies. And then they're like, oh, do you know why he's like that? Because he's, it's, it was just... Because this knock-knock jokes don't work. Yeah, he's the least compelling person I've ever encountered in film.

And it's The Joker. Yeah. It was just so boring. It was just grim. I was willing the Joker to die. You know, I was like, death would be a sweet release for this man for this character. I've never felt that about a character before. And you're a DC fan girl.

You love Batman. I love Batman. I love the... I love the Adam West version. I love the Tim Burton versions. I feel like there's so much fun in them. There was no fun in this flick. I hated it.

It shouldn't have been made. It is a crazy artistic decision for a director of a film to go, what if I made a Joker that didn't have any fun in it? There's no joy in it. There's no joy in it. It is the defining characteristic of Joker. So many comic book characters are so incredibly self-serious. It's kind of the problem with Superman is that he's got no vulnerabilities.

and Clark Kent is this just all-American piece of beef that's got no texture to him just like wholly moralistic and so it's very hard to kind of like have an interesting take on Superman Joker represents the opposite the Batman universe is quite interesting

because it's like we're all operating in this fallen city of Gotham where kind of there's no true good guys even Batman himself you know he's the fucking dark night it's the whole point and then Joker represents this slither of a specific kind of humanity, which is the absurdity of comedy.

And attaching that to villainy is so fun and interesting. And then they whipped all of that off for this reading of it. The Joker is, I would say, like, the least funny person I've ever encountered on screen. Joaquin Phoenix's Joker. Yeah, I'd say there was more joy in humor in, like, Schindler's list than there was in the Joker. I was watching out for it this time because we've sort of been seeing how many jokes the movie has in total, a movie called Joker. And then I was looking at how many jokes does Joker have in this movie.

All of the funny ones are thrown at him, attributed to him from his legal pad, I think. Like, how tall are you actually? He makes one actual joke. To his credit, the jokes he's written down on his... notepad. Ah, funny. Well, they're his jokes. Well, okay, sure.

Maybe, you know, because they say in comedy, there are people who, there are performers who write and writers who perform. And we may have found ourselves a writer who performs. Because, you know, it can be difficult to get an idea from the page to the stage, can't it? And this poor guy has had all of his stages taken away from him. I mean, the irony, as Eli pointed out, semi-recently has not lost, that we have, you know, hold ourselves up in a comedy club.

for the least funny movie of all time that also features no performance of comedy. That was a mistake, but not really our mistake. That's Todd's mistake. This whole endeavour is about method film reviewing, right? So we need to enter the world of the film to properly assess it. And we thought, if you're going to call a movie Joker 2 and the lead is Joker,

that coming to a comedy club would be a pretty safe bet. Turns out, no. Not related. Not. We should have gone to a psych ward or a prison to watch this movie. It's not interesting as a prison movie because the only thing, positive thing I can say about it as a prison movie is that it's not as racist as other ones typically are. Usually prison films are pretty racist. If you think of like the classic prison film,

the hero of a prison film is usually someone who's like a real for shadow water. Like their crime is very small or like, for example, Orange is New Black, her crime is transporting drugs, you know, 10 years ago, or that they are innocent, they're innocent, or like the main character of Oz, his, it was a, like, vehicle manslaughter, like, there's something that's like, they're our window into this world, right? So they're kind of painted as like a fish out of water. They're not meant to be here. So that you, the viewer, could kind of conceivably go, yeah.

On a really bad week, there's a way I could land myself in this person's situation. So we're set up to, the audiences set up to identify them. but if they're the fish out of water, what's the water? It's usually people of color. Right. If this person, this main character doesn't belong, by de facto, you're saying, well, these other people do. And they're usually populated.

If you think about the president, it's like the main character is usually always white, and the people that populated are usually much more diverse. Yeah. So which is inherently racist. And so that's the only thing I'll say about it. That started as a critique of the film and ended up being sort of a celebration of one of the small triumphs, I suppose, that they have backed into it.

I think it is hilarious that you said the one good thing about this being a prison film is it's not too racist. It's not as racist as other prison films. Well, can I say, Abby, it's not just a prison film, it's also a courtroom procedural. And I would like to note that as someone who said during the screening,

courtroom dramas can be compelling. Yes. Were you compelled? Not at all. There was nothing interesting about this. Like, there was no, like, surprise witness. There was no jeopardy. Because you're actively willing to care of it,

so I didn't care if he won or lost. There was nothing in it. There is no jeopardy. You're right. You know, I'm just reminded of what my grandpa says about cucumbers. Go on. There's no good in it. There's no good in it.

What's your grandma got against cucumbers? He just says there's no good in it. Water. He says, no. There's just water. There's no good in it. Water is good for you. That's what he says.

And that's what I think about. The joke is there's no good in it. There's no good in it. There's nothing here. It's a cucumber of a film. It's a cucumber of the film. There's no good in it, have me. There's no good in it.

That's what I always say. I agree with the point you are illustrating with that. But I disagree with the central argument. I like a cucumber. You know, I like what everybody's grandpa is saying, that there is a food item devoid of your nutritional sort of benefit. It's a waste of your time.

There's nothing in this. It's like if you like long lingering, it's like, but it's close to being a good film. That's why it's hard to watch. Which makes it kind of worse in a way because there's sort of less to grab onto for us. If it was a more incompetently made film, I think that would make for a more interesting viewing experience. But they've competently made an incredibly boring film.

Have the guts to be bad, you know. Yeah I take the big swings But I mean they also You couldn't say he didn't take a big swing with this movie That's true Should we get into some individual elements Because there's so much on paper about this movie

That would be a bit of you Yeah go on Lady Gaga let's start there I love her as I was saying in the screening She is a star So every time you say she's a star So there's a hand gesture that goes with it Such a star she is that you feel physically compelled

To communicate it with with language and motion. She is simply a... She's... She's... She's... She is so charisma. She is a superstar.

I would be compelled by this woman. There's so much to work with there. And her playing Harley Quinn, who's like a kind of, you know, wacky... Character. Oh, there's a lot of fun to be hit in here. There was no fun.

They wasted her. Why was it a musical? Why was it a musical? Why is so Lady Gaga could be in? it for some reason. Yeah. It's not like she doesn't sing. She does sing.

But it's quite, lovely is a good word. Yeah. Because it's kind of forget her, like, yeah. She plays her voice down a few times as well. Yeah.

I do, you know, I will say, that's an interesting point. Do we get any, there are brief moments, but you want a whole song where you go full Gaga.

She lets river a couple of times. And we're denied it. This is such a weird movie for her to choose to be stripped back in, like being Harley Quinn. On paper, this was an Oscar campaign. This was money. This was money in the bank.

Joker two, huge box office success. Joker won. He's already won an Oscar for it. Like, every single thing is pointing towards this movie working. Yeah. And I will say the musical stuff, it absolutely, it does not work. And I think I put up a defense semi-recently of, the first musical number when he sings for once in my life in the asylum,

I do think, okay, that is, I can see conceptually this is interesting for someone to sing a big bombastic number about love in such a drab space. But it is not consistently interesting, and by the end of it, it is boring and offensive. And they don't build on it, they don't offer any variance. All of the songs that are set in the world are just not worthy. And, yeah, the treatment of, like, when they play, Frank Sinatra's

That's Life at the Start which is sort of sung by some characters eventually but initially is just used as the introduction of music to the movie Can you imagine

go to a Broadway show and you're watching the musical and you're watching the musical and then before anyone in the show sings they just play you

wholesale one of the great songs from the American songbook and you're sitting there listening to the sound system being like what the fuck is

happening here what the fuck are you doing to me because I'm pretty sure I paid $120 to watch people sing live. It's incredibly confusing. It is so confusing to have so many songs. That would be great delivered by, and sometimes are delivered by people in the film. And what about this?

If then I told you that the first time someone did sing in the movie, 50% of the people who were on stage took their places either on the side of the stage or in the audience and just watched the song take place in the same way as an audience member does and then rejoined the production. All right. And also, what if the voice singing was not a very good voice also.

Get that mic right in there, Abby. And I want to get back to the gargarness because so we've covered how you are such a big fan of her. But what did you think of her specifically in this? Like, how was her performance of Harley Quinn for you? I think she was doing her best. I don't think we can fault her for a low effort. Like, she was in it. Okay.

But I think... I've gone real back and forward on. Yeah. First four watches, I was like, she's delivering a stunning performance. And now I just don't know anymore. But I think here's what they've given her. They said, okay, Lady Gaga, go out to war. Go out to war, Lady Gaga.

And she's like, oh, what have I got? Grenades? Have I got a machine gun? Have I got a bazook? And they're like, no, you've got one bayonet. And you've got to do something with that. And she's trying to do something with the bayonet. And maybe someone who had more skill in acting and film acting

could have done something with the bayonet. But that's all she's got. But she's doing a fairly able job. handling herself considering she's armed a bayonet. Yeah, yeah. Okay. She just has a bayonet. Second thing that is so lovely for you. Musicals. You love musicals.

You're a big fan of musicals and this is technically a musical. So what did you think of that as a musical? I love musicals so much and more than anything I want to be in a musical and people to be looking at me and saying wow, I never knew that she was like that, you know?

You've performed in musicals before? I have, but I was in the chorus and I was a dogshed chorus. me of Blue because I wanted people to look at me so I do stuff like put a monocle on for grease lightning I got really told off for putting the monocle on for grease lightning

but people noticed me and that's what it's all about that's show business and I thought I was like that's show business I think you're compelled who is this character in the back of Greece Lightning who's wearing a monocle it only works because not everyone in the chorus

did what you do imagine if we've got a fedora a monicle someone else has got a cane But even if I didn't have a monocle on, people were looking at me because I was so... Because I'm fumbling with my monocle and I can't fit it in my eye. Because I'm scrambling around on the floor, screaming where is my monocle? Yeah, because I would be so happy to be on stage. Like I was just so thrilled to be on stage.

I was radiating an energy that was so much larger than anyone else's energy. And I get told off. that as well because there was one scene musical I was in called Dusty Springfield about the life of Dusty Springfield this is the last musical I was ever in so that tells us something No one chorus

remember how long ago is this production? This was like 15 years ago I'm in the chorus and you're checked on the way backstage for Monocles you get a pat down by the director well that time I got told off because there's a scene where Dusty

and her coffin goes across the stage and I was like so happy that I was smiling so happy to be on the stage and the director said you'll never work in New Zealand musicals again they're like I got told off so much in musicals like I was

down trotten to the max when I was in musicals because I was loving it so much but I couldn't really dance I could dance but not in a way that was in uniform with everyone else but your love for it could not compute to successfully taking part in Any talent.

I was elite. If they'd done me elite, I would have been pretty good, I reckon. You were the line? I was the line in my high school production of The Wizard of Oz. And I was a phenomenon. I can see that so vividly. You're smashing being the line. At the time, I was like, well, how about what I cast me as that?

And then I was in rehearsal, said the first line got the first laugh. And it was, that's the red rag to the bull. That's your origin story. My origin, I think you can tell so much about someone by like who they play. in their high school musical. And the fact that I played, the lion and the Wizard of Oz is like,

it's everything you need to know. It's like finding out someone, like Paul Williams played Danny Zucco in Greece. Yeah, that does explain a lot. There's like an unlock of like who they are. You spend the whole production figuring out how to upstage him. Yeah.

Oh my God. Yeah, I was chronically upstaging in The Wizard of Oz. Like my mom said to me, like you got to tone it down a little bit. Because she, especially the bowels. because I'd come out and she said I came out like but I was getting the loudest cheer

but she was like it's kind of obnoxious where you're doing so from this we understand a deep abiding sort of guttural love of musicals in all shapes and sizes love them no small roles no small roles not if Abby's doing them not if I'm doing it they're big and so we've just sat down to enjoy what is being marketed as and is discussed as a musical so with all of that in mind

Yeah. The intersection of your love of musicals, your deep understanding of prison films, the presence of Lady Gaga. And Batman stuff. Yeah. If we spotlight just for a little bit the musical element of this, what did you make of it as remove everything else for a second? As a musical. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, I hated it. It was like, because the musical is transformative.

It's beautiful. It's a world. It's not our world. It's a world you want to live in, right? And those beautiful. I think that I assume the, like, inspiration was those old Hollywood musicals, you know, the big glitz and the glamour and the rhinos. Some very unsubtle winks towards those throughout the production. Yeah, I didn't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out to that one.

But those ones were just like, they were pure kind of escapism. They were beautiful. And also the people in them were really talented, like Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. They're doing stuff that no one could do. Busby Berkeley was doing stuff that was like, Then or now. Yeah, yeah. No one can do this stuff.

And, but you were seeing a musical that was like, okay, some of the visual images were kind of cool, but they can't sing that good. Well, like, I can't sing that good enough to be transformative. And you're also like, I hate you. I hate you. I don't want you to have joy in musicals. There should be me out of there. Okay.

I feel like, I mean, you are on. I could have played the Joker. You're on the same path. this is us but you are bringing an interesting dimension to it. I could have played the Joker. Where you're going like, not only do I hate this movie but I should be in it to improve, I could save her. I could save her.

I could save her. I could save her. I could change her. You put the question to us which I didn't want to answer while the movie was playing so I wanted to discuss it with you but you put the question to ask what are three things you would do to improve this. So I think that first of all I'd love to hear what the three things you would do

to improve this and one of them can be casting yourself. I yeah okay yeah I'll say it I reckon I could have done a better joker

I really thought you were going to go for Harley okay you're joking I don't want to be Harley I want to be the Joker Is Gaga still Your issue is not lie with Lady Gaga No she's in it

I think I'd have more chemistry with her and I'd enjoy it and I think I have a joy in my heart and I think I could have projected that I reckon I could have made some of those lines funny Like, well, look at this. If I was the Joker,

I'm the jerk in it. I'd be to the... You'd sit yourself around the pit with the very idea. I see it. I can see why he's so fucked up now. I've only been the Joker for like 36. But I said, if I'm the Joker, This is the, we're doing, I'd be like, oh, I'm making them laugh. I'm making them laugh.

I'm having fun with the camera. I reckon number one improvement. I'm the joke. Well, what did you make of Joaquin's decision to do the foghorn, leghorn, impersonation as a southern lawyer? There's no fun in them. It wasn't fun. It was like, okay.

All right, so you crushed the roll and you'd crush that scene. Yeah, I crush it all. We discussed you sort of taking a, we were saying that O.J. Simpson was someone who, in the courtroom, just oozed charisma to win the jury over. I know, O.J. Simpson was more likable than the Joker. The Menendez brothers, more likable than the Joker. You're bringing that energy to your portrayal of Joker in the courtroom.

I'm bringing the energy of like, oh, no, I'm on trial, but also, I'm a bit of fun. But also, smell my whole. Yeah. I'm going, you know, they're talking about me saying I'm insane. I'm like, oh. I'm just having a bit of fun with it. I will, I mean, you know,

I will immediately say that improves my perception of what the movie could be. I'm cutting, I reckon, 45 minutes of walking down corridor stuff. No more corridors. No more corridors. No more corridors. No more corridors of stuff.

And I'm putting some more compelling people in the prison. I'm putting like a, you know, a top dog, you know, I'm creating some more interesting dynamic characters within the prison itself. Yeah. And no chrismar. Oh no, I'm the Joker now. So now Joker and Harley have charisma.

That was a big criticism of yours. Yeah. The sex scene specifically. My God. These are the horniest cartoon characters anyone has ever seen. They're literally like, they've got hammers. They're like, oh my God,

the opportunity to see these characters have sex, that is going to be off the chain. It was the grimmest sex scene. I've ever seen him in my life. That was horrifyingly depressing. What are your three? changes if you can make three changes it's a great three well I am putting Abby Howells in the movie in the role of Joker thank you so that's two for me I would

what would I do I'm gonna give an earnest answer yeah yeah we want it you're I mean you're well positioned to the way the musical component of this movie should work with the songs and the the thing they keep tripping over is that they're so languid the entire time and never kind of get off the ground and they all as we and our guests have discussed all start with the same they all ramp in they're all like transitioning from talking or whispering into song i want some kick down the door numbers and the way you do it is you start the movie grounded in arkma asylum and you have arthur you know singing to Alan Partridge to Steve Coogan

is kind of like the first thing that this is a musical and it is kind of bending reality you're like the fuck is going on here and each subsequent number should become more elegant fantastical, elevated, stupendous

and divorced from reality as they go along and they should build and build to become higher delusions to get to an apex so that when he does, guys we are on some sort of a journey to get there and it means something. I think you're so right, Tim. I think you're so right.

Because it's like Chicago, the first lot of Chicago is like the zoom in on Roxy's eye. And so you know that like whenever it goes into that fantasy world, you're seeing the world through Roxy's eyes. And I think a really similar device could have been used for Joker. Yeah. Like that he is delusional. This is a character that apparently does have a split personality. Apparently.

Apparently. Apparently, uh, folly adieu means in French a delusion shared by two people. So like, it's it, you know, the name's on the tin. So that's one. Two, and I've said it before, start it six minutes before the courtroom explodes with the car bomb. Yeah. Start it there.

So what we've got is a movie where the Joker, like open on him firing his lawyer and representing himself in the most crazy way possible where he's grabbing accents from television characters, the cartoon characters that he's seen, and lobbing that at the judge and the jury. Opening with that and then, and you're like,

what the fuck is this movie? you and then a car bomb goes off like instantly you're like fucking let's go and then I would change the duration to 90 minutes so you start at six minutes before the car bomb so I guess we're adding a whole bunch of stuff so I guess sorry to add more than three no no but I don't think you can shank him to death because that would be happening at about minute 15 of the movie I'm making and we also don't really know what the fuck's going on with Harley Quinn in my version so I guess shit now this actually kind of works because we're back to she did the car bomb probably eh because we listened out for the line of dialogue in the car when he gets taken away and they say

you said to blow it all up and someone did man they blew it up so they didn't set that car bomb off i think harley quinn is the most likely person i think she did i assumed that she did because i did too that was her thing she loves to destroy building yeah well that's confusing too because she lights the facility on fire where they are but the setup for that is she says I lit my parents apartment on fire but then that's revealed to be a lie later so she's not even like a consistent pyromaniac

yeah it's fucking annoying if she yeah if she did set the if she did set the car bomb it is I am back to hating myself can I say that I am back to self-loathing why because you're talking about the movie seriously yeah yeah one of the one of the darkest parts of this experiment is the amount of time we've spent genuinely discussing Joker 2. I hate it.

There's not enough oxygen in it for us to sort of elbow our way into the world of the movie and kick around and have fun. There's no fun in this. There's no good in it. To quote Joker 2. Yeah. This isn't fun. This isn't fun. It's not funny.

It's not funny. It's not funny. So your three, it was four really. Number one with the bullet, Abby Howells was the Joker. number two escalation of musical numbers towards being fantastical number three

open with Arthur dismissing his lawyer and accelerate towards the car bomb yeah and there was sort of push past and then you have to not shank him

because then we kind of have to have them live for the duration of a feature film like that buildup you're talking about build up to him being executed and sorry to add stuff as well

show me the fucking crowds that are rallying behind him because they keep telling us they keep telling us oh you got all these fans outside And it's literally telling not showing. It's like the most first principle of good storytelling, especially in film.

Show me, don't tell me. They keep telling me this thing. They never once show me like the Joker's fans apart from a few people who stand up in the courtroom. Show me the throbs of people outside with the t-shirts and signs that Harley keeps talking about. You move past them consistently. There is a crowd outside the courtroom every time.

We spend no time with them. That's their version of doing that, though. It's shit. It's not enough. It's not anywhere near enough. It's just a bunch of people outside of courtroom. Yeah. It's not Joker fans.

I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted. Do you know what the problem is? I'm exhausted of myself. I'm retiring from this episode for a little bit. No, no, no, no, no. I got kind of like amped when you were talking about those changes because you're so right.

I think you're bang on the money. Thanks, Abby. This is why Guy brought you word to keep me alive. You are well positioned to be right. You have done your homework. Yeah. Abby, respectfully. I like your takes, but they are, in the context of what we're doing, grossly unqualified.

Excuse me. Yeah. Come back in nine screen. I dedicated four years of my life to studying the prison film, and it's literally never been relevant until this moment. I know, it just so happens in the one prison film we're watching for this project. You told me would not pass muster as a text that you could study. Yeah. Yes.

Okay. But for a pretty funny reason, that it's too bad. in every conceivable way to be interesting to study. Number one, whenever Joker's not on screen, everyone should be saying, where's Joker?

Okay. Number two, Arthur Fleck does not exist. For the entirety of the screening, Joaquin Phoenix is made up as the Joker. Thanks, thanks, man. Give me that movie. It's really not hard to do.

This is not hard to improve, is it? Get Jettison Arthur. We don't need him. We don't want him. Yuck. He's fully joker. now. He's just, and that's great.

There's great progression of a geology of a movie. We've got the origin story and now we're dealing with Joker. Yeah. And number three, happy days. More cartoon sound effects. Probably just provided from the audio track that Abby's been doing on this episode of the podcast. Yeah, I'm having a bit of fun with it. I think you're saying that a tiny bit in Jess, but I actually think that would fucking rock.

The cartoon sequence at the beginning, I thought it was genuinely, The content sequence in the beginning does feel like there's components of the mask, which is what's missing from this joker universe, is like, you know, is the ability for him to swirl around and his eyes pop out of his fucking skull when he sees Harley and actually just activate the guy a little bit. That's what the musical should be doing,

allowing you to fuck with like the physics and the imagery of the real world to elevate everything. And they refuse to take the opportunity to use the musical numbers in that way. Yeah. It's like, everything is there for you on a fucking. platter to make this great. Yeah, we're three ding-dongs sitting in a corner bar, and we've come up with a better idea than that.

Come on, man. Come on, man. Todd. Todd. It's just infuriating that it happened. Because there's just people out there that just really care about it, and it's just me. It's just they didn't do it.

Do you feel like now how there is a stereotype of Star Wars fans, and how awful they are about any diversion from the original trilogy and introducing a character, for example, who is both heroic and a woman and how they, like, turn on any movie or series where that's depicted. Are you feeling a little bit like you're getting some insight into how they might feel? Yeah, I've never felt racked enough to post a Facebook comment before,

but maybe I would on this flick. You'd dig through Warner Brothers' Facebook page to... Joke. ...2024. And right, I should have been the Zoot. And then realize, oh God, I've become what I'm most fair. I am the Joker. Joket too was so fucked up between Abby Howl's into a redator.

Yeah, I know. Can I ask you guys? Obviously, we've outlined the faults with this movie, but imagine if, for whatever reason, it connected with an audience. So this version of the movie really resonated and people loved it. Yeah. And like the world in which they then mounted it as a Broadway musical, Can you visually imagine that show

sitting down in the theatre to watch this? This? Yeah. No. There's no way. Not at all. Broadway's done some stinkers in the past. I've performed one of them myself.

There was this play called Moose Murders and it's famous for being the worst play that has ever been on Broadway. It opened and closed on the same night. Wow. It's so phenomenally bad. And you performed it. Yeah, I thought it would be funny to remount it again because it's so bad.

It's supposed to be a murder mystery and it's like incredibly bad. You put it up. Yeah, I'm in it and I directed this. How did it go? It honestly stormed the house. It was a complete slate because it's so bad. And then we played up the badness with like wigs and stuff. Do you think you've put on the most successful production of the Moose murders?

I reckon because I've done it twice. Got a return season. Hello? It's really good. I won Best Director at the Dan Eden Theatre Awards for this production. for this production. Congratulations. And the writer of the play got in contact.

It was like posting on the review saying like, no, I meant it to be bad. But the review of it said that after this play, the world is now divided into two groups of people, people that have seen moose murders and people that have not seen moose murders. And I've forever changed from the fact that I saw this. I was there that night, the one night. was performed.

Wow. Yeah. So I think it would be worse than that. Yeah. It is a very, as Tim has said, unpleasant place to be. You're right. It's unpleasant.

This movie is unpleasant. We're talking in a lot of generalities, I think, at the moment. I've got a specific, which you wanted me to talk about, which is the gun. Oh, well, this, it's just, It's illustrative of, you know, the way this movie takes itself...

Misses at every opportunity in a way? It takes itself so seriously and then misses in ways that it could never possibly conceive. Unless it's basically... Can you provide the context for the moment that's happening when it happens? Yeah. So the specific moment I'm talking about is after Arthur Fleck has disavowed the Joker and sort of said, you know, there is no Joker. I killed six people I wish I didn't but I did

And you know We see Harley walk out of the courtroom And then we see him afterwards He's in the he's on the phone calling her to sing Sings poorly into her answer phone And as on the other end of that answer phone She's sitting hearing him And she pulls out a revolver and puts it to her tempo

The revolver that has been sitting in the fantasy A revolver we believe she actually has Yes but the hammer is cocked back which is like that's a sense of jeopardy oh my god she's cocked the gun but the trigger has already been pulled like the trigger is back as well and i think i think they did it because it is so big in the shot the gun that it's like it looks better to have that sort of gap there of getting the trigger out of the way i do every other time the gun is on screen the the trigger is ready to be pulled yeah and this moment i genuinely believe if i if i try to put myself in the mind of todd phillips

of what he's trying to communicate to an audience. What he's trying to say is that Harley is so in love with the Joker that the fact he has ceased to exist means she might be compelled to kill herself. Yes. And if that is the case, then we need her to be able to pull the trigger

to actually do it. Oh, of course. No, I totally agree. Or the alternative is there is an internal logic that they have applied for the reason because every other time we've seen it, hear that. Do you have anything for that?

I can't think of a single... Possibly provide a reason that would be the case. That's what I thought you're winding up to because what I'm saying is yes, having the gun there in her putting it to your head is like a good moment. Genuine Jeannie Jeopardy, genuine stake. Semi earned.

She's fallen in love with a false identity that has now been disavowed. So yeah, she's like attached so much of yourself to this false identity that when it goes, she too must go. Gun to the head. But if the gun is not a gun then, it's just a piece of metal that she's got.

If the trigger is already back, it's just, it's just a, it's probably, it's like a letter opening sword, you know? It's like a, it's probably a lighter

instead of a revolver. It's not a real gun. So like, again, again, we're so close to having something. And they can't,

they can't do anything to completion in this film. They can't, they get so close to everything. Arthur does come. Something. Arthur does come. that does come.

In a horrible scene. Whatever the... I'd do that scene much better. Whatever the opposite of a shining light is, which I guess is this entire podcast series, but the absolute lowest part of this film for my last several watches is the face on Joaquin Phoenix after he finishes

inside of Lady Gaga. And from a technical point of view, it's kind of phenomenal acting. if you're going, this is the most pathetic slug of a human being then it's like, okay, great. But from every other dimension it is just like

wretched. It is the most pathetic face I've ever seen on a person. And it makes me feel bad every time. Yeah, it's, um, it was, I just, it was just like,

uh, everything was like, oh, the prison guards have beat him up again. It's like, um, blah, Oh, he's coming a bad way.

He's coming a bad way. It's like, everything about this movie is unpleasant. There's no good in it. Like, I reckon, do we do shining lights? Yeah, yeah, yeah, please. I mean, Brendan Gleason's performance. I'm sure you've highlighted his performance before.

He's easily the best character in all of it. Yeah. And it gets no ending, really. Well, no, he doesn't get an ending, but two things that you, might have missed having only seen the movie once. Yeah, sorry. One, we're pretty sure he puts a baton up Joker's ass.

Oh, I was wondering what happened then, yeah. That is what we have inferred from the information we have gleaned from our watches. It is irritating, and I know it's a technique that you can do in movies where you trust the audience to ensure it the event that you want them to or either deliberately leave it open to interpretation, so there are multiple ways that you can view what happens next. this movie does neither they basically build up to showing us the Joker as being knocked around

for disrespecting the guards on TV and then they drag him behind like a bay of urinal so we can't see him so we don't know if they're just going to kick the shit out of him or if they're going to do something else and they move on but whatever happens breaks them in such a way

but it is so like deliberately murky and unclear in a way that it's not intelligent or useful it's just like you're just left to to not know precisely what it's happened which is fine. You might not want to get all the way to showing us violation on screen, even though you

play it fucking fast and loose in descriptions of it otherwise. But it's to not actually even give us the solidity of knowing what has happened to break this person in this way. And for you to watch it, who is a very intelligent moviegoer and be like, oh is that what?

Yeah, sort of what, you know, it's like fucking tell us. If it's going to break him, fucking let us know. Yeah. But also know why. Again, we're talking about the movie. Seriously. Tell us about when you were in chess. Okay, so I was in Chess the Musical when I was 15 years old.

It was my first ever movie. In my first ever musical, I was so stoked to be in it. And I played a white pawn. And the final, the opening number is a big chess game. And there's a song that's like, Each game of chess means there's one less variation left to be played. And then there's a chess game played out. And my move was Move One Square immediately get taken walk off.

So I was fuming because I'm not in the rest of it. As a fan, though, you might get to watch it. Yeah, I'm immediately captured. And then I was like 15. There's a scene in Bangkok. There's probably the most famous song from Jess says, One Night in Bangkok and the World's your oyster. Yeah, and I was really annoyed that I wasn't made to be a sex worker.

They made me a tourist, and I was absolutely fuming about it. I was like, I want to be a tourist. I was like, it's fuming. make me at sex worker and they were like you're 15 years old and I was like cowers make me everyone else gets to be sex workers don't have to be

a tourist we did we did junk when we were like 15 I think and I distinctly remember the drama faculty at high school like getting into the real technical specifics of how you do heroin using a teaspoon so then we'd have an accurate depiction for our high school play of junk

yeah I went back to my old high school to direct the high school musical when I was like at uni and we did Bugsie Malone and Bugsy Malone is like a gangster movie for children and when you get cream like they shoot a gun and like cream comes out of it and like cream pies them and then they um are dead like that's like you're dead if you have that happen to you um but it was there was such a nightmare because like um a huge um huge problem was from the costume lady was like okay so we we can't use what of a mixture of it is because the um the it's drying on the children's colors then looks like semen like we're kind of the children are covered in seamen and these are the technical

problems you've got to face when you're mounting productions what i keep thinking abbey is that you've got the requisite experience intellect and importantly passion you should be creating your own vehicles if you want to be a star on the musical stage mount a show where your the lead. I want to be the Joker. Make it. Make the Joker musical we should have watched. I want to.

I want to prove Todd Phillips and say, you've got to put your heart into it. Can I, I mean, thank you for that diversion. The one other bit of Brendan Gleason, sorry, just to close it off for my own self-satisfaction, is that I'm not as shared, my theory is that I think he has orchestrated the murder of Arthur at the end.

I think that's him doing that. Who is the Joker? So the Joker is a fellow inmate at Arkham, proto-Arcim Asylum. But Brendan Gleason, it's the way he walks into the room, tips has had at Arthur, he's whistling,

because he's been furious at this guy because of the turn, and suddenly he's very happy. And then another guard goes, Arthur, you've got a visitor, leads him out, and then that inmate meets him in the hall and says, hey, let me tell you a joke before you go.

That inmate, I thought he did a great job. He is a fantastic actor. I think he's a really good actor. I totally agree. He doesn't have many other credits. Really? Yeah. I think I thought he was excellent.

Can I also because that was a, we were slow to that. I think it took us four screenings to cotton onto the fact that that was the quotation Mark's real joker. Yes. And you suspected it and then watched it take place. You got it before he gave himself for a Chelsea smile. I did wonder to myself, I wonder what this will mean for Abby. And you seemed really.

angry. Yeah, well, Joker recognized Joker. I can it's a joke of myself. I can see other

the Joker's. It's like a gay dad. I respond other jokes because I'm myself a Joker. He was just so dynamic. He was what the Joker should be. He was laughing. He was like uncomfortably laughing

in energy about him. It was like, a Joker recognized. I saw him. It was unsettling in a comfort. In a confident way. In a confident way.

As a, I suppose someone who'd spent two hours and 18 minutes with the story of the film. Yes. To then see that be the final resolution. Yeah. Did you feel excited, satisfied, shortchanged? Like, as a fan of all of the materials and whatever it means for potential future iterations of this character in this specific universe, what did you think of the, like, the written choice? I just, here's the thing I felt nothing

which is the worst thing to feel I didn't feel sad I didn't feel angry I didn't feel excited I felt nothing I think the noise I made was like I was actually shocked at the lack of reaction because you did call it

you called it again four watches earlier than us because you got it even before he got the knife out and did that to his own face you were like is that real joke and that's also so dumb because that's such a compelling

dramatic question in the dark night it's like how did I get these scars you know and it's left deliberately ambiguous well not just ambiguous but contradictory like specifically he keeps yeah telling stories that can't be true and then they were like no it's like this it's like this this is literally how it happened and also you know those two jokers those two movies we call the joker there was a joker this random guy you've just met his actual joker joker joker three the joker yeah yeah starring every house. Yeah, and that guy.

I've got a shining light. I do too. I'd love to hear your one. I will say that the prison pianist, not the one who is playing in the... Can I say? I know exactly who and what you mean. He's the one who's playing,

forget your troubles, come on get happy, he's on the keys. There's a shot of him through the doorway when he's playing where he does appear to be lost in the music. and I was happy for and jealous of him. Seen.

Okay. Not usually etiquette with the shining lights, but that guy has persistently frustrated me because he's taken halfway between like doing his fingers, his fingers on like a string instrument and piano. They had the opportunity to cast. Most actors know how to play piano a little bit. Yeah.

And I thought it would have been cooler to have someone who was like actually playing, but he's kind of doing. If you get lost in those eyes, Tim, it won't be a problem. It is so annoying that I like notice it and that I would think to ever talk or comment on it. Can I tell you something I'm worrying about? I'm painting myself into a corner. No. Just like, you know, have you ever made orange juice?

Yeah. You know when there's nothing left in the orange. Yeah. And you're looking at it and you know there's nothing left in the orange. we're in a situation where I think we're looking at that orange right now we're like going to need to make another four glasses of juice out of this

my shining light I can't think about what you just said my shining light God this is what is left to discover even this is a little bit poisoned but I have enjoyed it literally every time it's been on so we emerged

from I can't even remember what musical number it is that Arthur does in his fantasy as Joker. Is that the Sunny and Shear number? It might be the Sunny and Shear Beji Show. And then we're back in the courtroom and he has his head in his hands and he's still being represented by Marianne at this stage. And he says quietly first to himself, I can't do this. And then he yells to the courtroom, I can't do this anymore. And every time he says that, I am like, me too, man. me fucking too.

You are saying the words that are in my head. I just feel so connected to the character at that point. I can't do this anymore. And yet we must. Abby, it's been such a pleasure talking to you. Before we finish up, I do want to get ratings from everyone.

Now, of course, Tim, you will know that the score can be two thumbs up, one thumb up, no thumbs, one thumb down, or two thumbs down. Abby, it is your lead. Can I tell you something? I've had the strongest desire I've been ruined on an idea

and I don't know if it would be really bad to sing acapella for you now please because here's what I'm trying to first of all show that I'm the joke but second of all

it's not compelling at all like you know and he's in the interview with Alan Partridge and then he starts singing acapella you wouldn't follow this guy it's not it's like oh yeah you know and you

There would be no fandom around this. There would be no fandom around this. Now I'm doing it. I'm too scared. Do it. We're here for you. Okay. What song should I sing? I don't know. Sing one from your favourite musical.

Sing one you know. Okay. Okay. So you're Alan Partridge. Aha! Thank you, I love Partridge. They've got to sing. Okay, I'm going to sing a song from Chess.

This is the most vulnerable thing. I brought it on myself I'll be like long ago in someone else's lifetime someone with my name who looked a lot like me came to know

a man who made a promise would you follow me would I follow you? Yeah absolutely not not why does anyone be a fan of him from that? Not based on that. Not based on that. But that being said, I give it two thumbs down.

Yeah. Two thumbs down. Incredible. Yeah. And so that's all I'm saying is that I can be the Joker. Yeah. You're saying two things. Two thumbs down and also you should be the Joker.

Beg me the Joker. I'm ready. It is interesting. It's an interesting moment. I just think to reflect for, for i'm saying for me i imagine it's for us because this is very much a two thumbs down screening and you know all thumbs are made equal of course but if it's two thumbs down for you yeah on a flyby screening can you imagine how far down these thumbs are facing right now

it's probably it's the worst i've ever seen you guys like i'm really worried for you i don't like where you're at like you know just like tim right now is like kind of bouncing. I don't come to your work and talk shit about how you're going. And then you get so mad when I express concern for you. So yeah, I'm uneasy. How does this end? Well, that's all becoming the Joker.

Do you think it would have been funny if the, see, the Joker? Here's what I would have done as well. I would have been like in the courtroom scene. I would have been like, my wife. My rating and I will be undeterred because I, locked it in before anyone started talking about what their ratings were is one thumb down. What stopped it from being the worst? Like, probably Abby being there?

Yeah. Fair. I didn't, I've been lower during the watch. Yeah, fair. You look quite peppy during the watch. One thumb down. Yeah. Now, we're literally late to go and watch Joker 2 now.

So we got to go. This is awful. I hate this for you, fellas. Hopefully Abby will be in the next screening, on screen.