The Young Turks - An Uncomfortable Reality

Episode Date: November 23, 2023

John Kirby gets angry about the word "genocide" regarding the Israel-Hamas war and states, "This word genocide is getting thrown around in a pretty inappropriate way by lots of different folks. What Hamas wants, make no mistake about it, is genocide." Biden admin officials see proof their strategy is working in the hostage deal. HOSTS: Ana Kasparian (@AnaKasparian) SUBSCRIBE on YOUTUBE: ☞ https://www.youtube.com/user/theyoungturks FACEBOOK: ☞ https://www.facebook.com/theyoungturks TWITTER: ☞ https://www.twitter.com/theyoungturks INSTAGRAM: ☞ https://www.instagram.com/theyoungturks TIKTOK: ☞ https://www.tiktok.com/@theyoungturks 👕 Merch: https://shoptyt.com Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Bexie! Bexie! Bexie! Welcome to the Young Turks. I'm your host, Anna Kasparian, on this lovely Thanksgiving Eve. Just a reminder that we will be out on Thursday, meaning tomorrow and the day after, but there'll be plenty of content for all of you to catch up on on our YouTube channel or on Facebook where we also post our

content. If you're a member, it's a great opportunity to go back into our archives and maybe watch some episodes you may have missed. But we will be back on Monday, which I'm excited about, but keeping it real, considering the subject matter and how heavy it's been over the last, well, now almost two months. Really looking forward to a little bit of a break. And I hope that you guys enjoy your Thanksgiving break as well. Today's show is massive. Right before we went live, some news broke in regard to the hostage negotiations that the Israelis have been engaging in with Hamas militants. So we'll get to that a little later in the show. We're also going to have a fantastic interview that I'm really looking forward to today. It is with an individual who was brave enough to write about how the left should take crime seriously. And he's a progressive. himself. So I've got a lot of questions to ask him. And then I really wanted to do a deep dive today on the question of genocide, because while some feel comfortable using the word to describe the military actions taking place in the Gaza Strip by the Israeli defense forces, others feel

that the indiscriminative bombing and some of the other military actions taking place does not count as a genocide. So we'll dive into all of that in a little bit. Really exciting news. John Iderola will be joining me for the first time since he went on family leave. So he'll be on in the second hour of the show. So definitely stick around for that as well. And as always, just want to encourage you all to like and share the stream. If you're watching us live, it's a great way to get the word out about TYT and help us algorithmically, if you will. And if you'd like to join as a member, you can become one by going to tyt.com slash join.

Or just click on that join button if you're watching us on YouTube. You can become a member that way as well. It helps to keep us independent from corporate influence. It allows us to speak freely about the issues that we cover on a daily basis. And we are forever grateful to our members for basically pulling us through some of the darkest financial issues targeting the media today. So thank you again. With that said, though, we're going to do this deep dive into the question of genocide. It's a heavy topic, but I think it's an important one to talk about.

protesters here in D.C. in New York across the country. They've settled on a nickname for the president. They've been calling him genocide Joe. People can say what they want on the sidewalk, and we respect that. That's what the First Amendment's about. But this war genocide is getting thrown around in a pretty inappropriate way by lots of different folks. The word genocide getting thrown around in an inappropriate way by lots of different folks. That was a statement by National Security Council spokesman John Kirby. He's getting pretty irked over the fact that more and more Americans are in fact describing Israel's relentless bombardment of the Gaza Strip as genocide. But they're not the only ones.

Historians and yes, genocide experts themselves have also been weighing in on this issue. And I think it's important to give them a voice and kind of look at the evidence that we have as of today in regard to the actions of of the Israeli defense forces against Ghazans in the Gaza Strip. Now with that said, we're going to hear a little more from the experts in just a moment. But first, we should hear more from Kirby. What Hamas wants, make no mistake about it, is genocide. They want to wipe Israel off the map. They've said so publicly, more than one occasion. In fact, just recently, and they've said that they're not going to stop.

What happened on the 7th of October is going to happen again and again and again. And what happened on the 7th of October? Murder, slaughter of innocent people in their homes or at a music festival. That's genocidal intentions. Yes, there are too many civilian casualties in Gaza. Yes, the numbers are too high. Yes, too many families are grieving. And yes, we continue to urge the Israelis to be as careful and cautious as possible.

That's not going to stop from the president, right on down. But Israel is not trying to wipe the Palestinian people off the map. Israel's not trying to wipe Gaza off the map. Israel's trying to defend itself against a genocidal terrorist threat. Now, Kirby is right about one thing. What Hamas carried out on October 7th was vicious. It was absolutely horrific. And the way that innocent civilians in Israel were targeted,

kidnapped, tortured, burned alive, absolutely should be condemned, absolutely should be called out. And Hamas, Hamas specifically should pay the consequences for this. However, Kirby's What Aboutism, i.e., what about Hamas, really deflects from the actions and the statements that have been pouring out of the Israeli side of this war. And I just have a problem with, on one hand, rightly condemning the slaughter of children and innocent civilians on the Israeli side, while simultaneously downplaying and providing cover for the absolute annihilation of civilians on the Gazan side, on the Palestinian side. Oftentimes that part of the story seems to be completely ignored by our State Department and most members of our corporate media, to be sure. And so I want to just remind

everyone. Israel has engaged in a medieval siege and terror bombing of Gaza. That has been going on for weeks on end. A million and a half Gossans have been internally displaced to the southern part of the Gaza Strip. The south of Gaza was supposed to be safe, according to the IDF, which basically forced the evacuations of these Palestinians in the northern side of Gaza. But it also decided to engage in airstrikes in the south as well, as we've all known, as we've been talking about. And now we're hearing that they are going to intensify the bombardment of southern Gaza as well. Okay. And yes, there has been some hostage negotiation, which will potentially lead to a pause of several days in the bombing.

So the hostage exchange can happen. But then they're going to go right back to bombing. The IDF has made that clear. Israel has made that clear. We're going to get to that story later on in the show. And Gazans have, of course, been denied the essentials for life. Okay, food, water, the fuel necessary for the hospitals to operate and function appropriately. And speaking of the hospitals, there are no longer hospitals in the Gaza Strip that can take care of the wounded, the ill. individuals who, through no fault of their own, are now victims of this ongoing brutal war, which has led to, of course, this relentless aerial bombardment by Israel. Now with that said, as part of a hostage negotiation deal, hostage exchange deal between Israel and Hamas,

there will be a pause in Israel's bombings just for a few days. The administration, though, is worried about the unintended consequences of that pause. And I want to give you a statement or an excerpt I read in Politico today that should be concerning for anyone who actually gives a damn about humanitarianism and the lives of civilians in the Gaza Strip. There was some concern in the Biden administration about an unintended consequence of the pause that it would allow journalists broader access to Gaza and the opportunity to further illuminate. the devastation there and turn public opinion on Israel. Now, as we all know, public opinion on Israel, for the first time in my career at least, has been far more mixed than what we've experienced previously. And it's because we've already seen some of the devastation taking place in Gaza.

We've seen the hospital bombings. We've seen the children's bodies dismembered as they're laying on the ground on top of rubble. We have seen heart heartbreak, absolute torture. We have seen half of Palestinians lose their home because their homes were bombed. I mean, it goes on and on and on. So what this excerpt from Politico makes me wonder is, how much worse is it? What kind of destruction and brutality have we not seen yet? So much so that the Biden administration is concerned that if they pause the bombardment for a few days, journalists might be able to reveal the extent to which the Palestinians have been devastated and slaughtered in the Gaza Strip. But there's more. The devastation absolutely is real.

According to the Financial Times, satellite images do in fact show that half of the buildings in northern Gaza have been destroyed, and the IDF is headed for the southern region of the Gaza Strip to do the same. The full extent of the damage has been estimated using radar signals collected from the European Space Agency's Sentinel One satellite. Corey Scher, the Cooney Graduate Center and Hammond Van Dyckhoek of Oregon State University used algorithms to calculate how many buildings have sustained damage to at least 50% of their structure since the war began. So look, even if, even if Gossens are allowed to go back to the northern region, they're allowed to go back to their homes. There are no homes to go back to.

What is the plan after the bombardments end? And even the U.S. State Department has made clear that they are concerned, there really isn't a plan in place. And the Biden administration, which has greenlit everything that you've been seeing and experiencing in regard to this story, is now saying, look, if Israel's planning on occupying Gaza, they would be making a big mistake. But the real question is, what is Biden going to do about it? Because so far, talk has been very cheap. And the finger wagging hasn't been so persuasive toward Benjamin Netanyahu's far-right government in Israel. Israel is now turning its focus east into Gaza city and further into southern Gaza.

Over the weekend, Palestinians reported heavy bombardments in Zaytun and the Jabalya refugee camp. and the UN said several explosions had taken place at schools where civilians were sheltering. Hospitals, schools, refugee camps, UN buildings. Israel's defense minister vowed this weekend that the war would spread to the rest of Gaza soon. Quote, people who were on the western side of the city have already encountered the IDF's lethal strength, he told Conradio. People who are on the eastern side understand that this evening. People who are in the southern Gaza Strip will understand soon as well. But there's more.

Nearly all of Gaza's 2.3 million civilian population is now living in southern Gaza below the evacuation line. A forced migration that Palestinians like that of the Nakhba, liken that to the Nakhba, which means catastrophe in Arabic. And so think about that, okay, people had evacuated to the south. So the dense, like all of the Gaza Strip was already densely populated. But think about the high civilian death toll as the intense bombardment was taking place in the northern portion of the strip. Now consider the fact that all of these people evacuated the north, moved over to the south where they were told that they were going to be safe, making that region of Gaza even more densely populated. populated. And the IDF is saying out loud to the world, we will intensify our bombardment of the southern region soon, where there is an even more densely populated part of Gaza, which

means that there are going to be far more civilian deaths, far more. We all know this. Just think about it logically. But let me give you more. But to the southeast lies Khan Yunus, where the Israeli military has already indicated it intends to expand operations. Earlier this week, residents of four neighborhoods home to over 100,000 people, awoke to find thousands of leaflets from the IDF, ordering them to evacuate their homes. Now, Israel has indicated that it wants the people in southern Gaza to move again toward a tiny square of territory called Al-Wasi along the coast between Rafa and con unis. So an even smaller piece of land. Think about it. We're talking about hundreds of

thousands, if not millions of people. And I think what they're doing, their actual actions, make clear what their intentions are. Okay? Because to me, talk is cheap. You have to see what people are doing, what a government is doing, what a military is doing, and judge based on those actions. However, while I think what they're doing is clear, I do think it's also important to listen to the words that are being uttered by Israeli politicians and authorities. Because this isn't a one-off. There isn't just one example or two or three. There are countless examples indicating that they have genocidal intentions. And the fact that Americans and the U.S. State Department pretends like these statements aren't being made, these actions aren't being taken is ludicrous to me to say

the least. So let's start off with the Israeli president Isaac Herzog. Let's hear what he had to say. It's an entire nation out there that is responsible. It's not true. This rhetoric about civilians not aware, not involved, it's absolutely not true. They could have risen up, they could have fought against that evil regime, which took over Gaza in a coup d'etat. But we're at war. We are at war. We're at war.

We're defending our homes. We're protecting our homes. That's the truth. And then when a nation protects its home, it fights. And we will fight until we'll break their backbone. We will fight until we break their backbone. You know, they refer to them as human animals. They have absolutely no remorse when it comes to the slaughter of civilians.

Oftentimes they will conflate the civilian population with Hamas militants. And what about Israel's defense minister, Yov Galant? Why don't we hear from him? We're matilim, a maceau muclid, al-a-hra. There's a mazone, and mine, and delic. All is a gore

we're going to be chayot of them. I want to read you the statement, especially for those who listen to the audio version of the show,

it's important for you to know what he said. He said, quote, we are imposing a complete siege on the city of Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water,

no fuel, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly. Now some might look at that statement and say, well, you know, he's specifically referring to Gaza City. Isn't that like the epicenter of Hamas militants? Well, okay, well, let me give you another statement if that wasn't good enough. Here's another statement from October 13th where he said, Gaza, Gaza as a whole, okay, Gaza won't return

to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. So I'm curious what John Kirby thinks about statements like that. Because yes, it's easy to deflect by pointing to a terrorist group and calling out the terror that they committed, the heinous acts and the atrocities they committed against Israeli civilians. But why is it so hard for him to do the same in regard to the slaughter of innocent Palestinian civilians? Why is he so willing to keep referencing what Hamas has said in the past over and over again

while completely ignoring a statement from the defense minister of Israel? Gaza won't return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything. But I'm not done yet. Then you have reservist major general, Gora Eland, who's also the former head of the Israeli National Security Council. Here's a statement from Giora. The state of Israel had no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in. Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal.

I don't know, do we think Eland is a liar? Or should we take what Eelan has to say at face value? Seems pretty damn clear to me. There's more. Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist. Do you guys need more evidence? Is it hurting the Israeli government's feelings for me to call them genocidal? Because what they're engaging in is genocidal rhetoric and actions?

Maybe they should reconsider their military behavior. Maybe they should reconsider the slaughter and indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip. Maybe if they did that, people wouldn't be using this kind of rhetoric to criticize what they're engaging in. And to be sure, I will continue using this rhetoric because it's the appropriate rhetoric. It is fact-based rhetoric that I'm literally providing evidence for as we speak, but I'm going to continue providing even more evidence, since apparently you need to build a mountain

of evidence to prove your case here. But I just want you all to consider, what would you think if the shoe were on the other foot? If Hamas had the military capability and the kind of backing that the Israeli government currently has, and they carried out these atrocities against innocent Israeli civilians, would anyone in the U.S. State Department hesitate to call it a genocide? I would argue that they wouldn't hesitate. But I've got more. Knesset member and former public diplomacy minister Galit distal Atbarian posted on Facebook

that Israeli officials must invest all their energy in one thing, erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth. Let me read that again, okay? Israeli officials must invest all their energy in one thing, erasing all. all of Gaza from the face of the earth. I mean, how many different politicians that we hear from again? I mean, that's quite a few, no? But there's more.

That the brave monsters will fly to the southern fence and enter Egyptian territory, Atbarian continued, an apparent reference to Israel's reported plan to permanently expel Palestinians who survived the assault to Egypt-Sinai Peninsula, imposing a second Nakba on the population, or let them die. Gaza needs to be wiped out. Sounds like genocidal rhetoric to me. What does genocide mean to you exactly? There's more.

This is also from Galit. Revengeful and vicious IDF is required here. Anything less than that is immoral. No, you would think that's enough, but I'm not done yet. There's more. Let me give you more examples. This was reported in the New York Times. Some Israeli hardliners advocate keeping control of Gaza and permanently expelling its Palestinian residents. A Lakud lawmaker, Ariel Kalner, has called for another Nakba that would overshadow the original mass displacement in 1948. Right now, one goal, Nakba, Kalner said on October 8th. Nakba in Gaza and Nakba to anyone who dares to join, he added.

And a far right government minister, Amishay Eliahu, said on Wednesday, this is an older excerpt. So it wasn't literally this past Wednesday. This was earlier. But nonetheless, that Gaza, Gaza should be given to former Israeli soldiers who fought in Gaza or to former Israeli settlers, who lived in the enclave before Israel withdrew from it in 2005. Then Eliahu said that Israel should consider dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza. An idea that drew condemnation from Netanyahu and other members of the government. Now, Eliyahu was temporarily suspended for the nuclear bombing statement. But as far as I know, that is the only politician, only public figure in Israel who has used genocidal rhetoric and has been punished for it.

All those other people are free to say these things, continue to say these things, appear on Israeli television on a regular basis and say these types. types of things. But here in America, we get a completely different story. I have to buy a subscription to the Financial Times to read real reporting about what's really being said by Israeli officials. Because some of the most heinous statements, to be quite frank, are not being repeated or shared in the New York Times. But I do have more evidence, more examples, political reported just today that the United States has sent Israel data on aid group locations in Gaza so that the IDF can avoid bombing them. Okay, the point is, hey, we're sharing intel with you. This is a UN building. This is where innocent civilians are sheltering. This is a

hospital. Please don't bomb these buildings, considering the high volume of Palestinian civilians who are sheltering there. They bombed anyway. They bombed anyway. But I mean, why wouldn't they? There's no consequences. It's not like the United States punish them or served up consequences for ignoring that intel and deciding to bomb where civilians were sheltering.

So of course they're going to do it. The Biden administration has been providing Israel with the location of humanitarian groups in Gaza for weeks to prevent strikes against their facilities. but Israel has continued to hit such sites. Political also reports officials have helped transmit coordinates of groups that provide food and medical care in Gaza and operate out of hospitals, smaller offices, and live in guest houses. Among the sites provided to the Israeli government are medical facilities,

including Al-Shifa Hospital, parts of which Israeli forces took over on November 15th. We all know what happened to Al-Shifa Hospital. We're still waiting on evidence that under the Al-Shefa hospital was a Hamas militant command center. Where's the evidence of that? The IDF has failed to provide it, and they've moved on to bombing other hospitals. Again, with absolutely no consequences from the United States government or a state department. And the information, by the way, included GPS coordinates of a number of medical facilities and information on movements of these aid groups.

But Israel's continued bombardment of these humanitarian facilities. raises more questions about whether Washington has the political sway, many in the administration want with Israel. And the divide is particularly stark given that the goal is protecting aid workers, one of the most fundamental tenets of international humanitarian law. And as we know, at least 53 journalists have been killed as a result of the IDF's aerial bombardment, not just in the Gaza Strip. There were journalists who died in Lebanon as well. And perhaps all these actions and all these statements that have been very clear to me in terms of the intentions and the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government, maybe that's not enough for you. Maybe you have to hear from someone who isn't just a dumb talk show host, right? I'm just a dumb talk show host.

I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just relaying the information. I'm sharing with you the details of what they're doing and saying. But maybe that's not good enough. So why don't we actually read from an Israeli historian and genocide expert who wrote this piece in Jewish currents. His name is Raz Segal. The title is A Textbook Case of Genocide.

Israel has been explicit about what it's carrying out in Gaza. Why isn't the world listening? And notice the date for the piece. It's dated October 13th. So it's less than a week after. Hamas's atrocities. So a lot of the bloodshed that we've been sharing with you in recent weeks hadn't even happened yet. But Raz Segal, with a sober eye, looked at what was going on and what the Israeli government was planning to do in Gaza.

And he was already raising alarm over it. So let's give you a few excerpts. The assault on Gaza can also be understood in other terms. as a textbook case of genocide unfolding in front of our eyes. I say this as a scholar of genocide, who has spent many years writing about Israeli mass violence against Palestinians. Under international law, the crime of genocide is defined by the intent to destroy, in whole, or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group as such.

as noted in the December 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the crime of genocide. In its murderous attack on Gaza, Israel has loudly proclaimed this intent.

And they have. I've shared examples of that with you. He then turns to how the media in Israel is commenting on Palestinians and what they think should happen to Gaza. An interviewee on the Pro Netanyahu Channel 14 called for Israel to turn Gaza to Dresden.

Channel 12, Israel's most watched news station, published a report about left-wing Israelis or left-leaning Israelis, calling to dance on what used to be Gaza. Meanwhile, genocidal verbs calls to erase and flatten Gaza have become omnipresent on Israeli social media. In Tel Aviv, a banner reading, zero Gaza. was seen hanging from a bridge. Remember how disgusted we all were when we saw anti-Semitic banners hanging from freeway bridges in the United States during that whole debacle involving Kanye West,

spreading anti-Semitic garbage? Remember how horrific that was, how much we hated it? Why is it okay for those types of banners to be, you know, put up on bridges in regard to Palestinian civilians. Why the double standard? So look, John Kirby and the White House's genocide denialism might seem super shocking for those who are taking a sober look at all of this. But I really do want you to look at the history of the United States because historically

speaking, the U.S. has spent a lot of time engaging in genocide denial, not just when it comes to this war, but for over a century, the United States wouldn't even recognize the Armenian genocide. And what's so ironic about all of this is that it took the Biden administration. Joe Biden himself to acknowledge the Armenian genocide. He deserves a lot of credit for that. It would have been far better, though, if he didn't engage in denialism when it comes to what is currently transpiring against Palestinian civilians in the Gaza Strip. And I want to share one final thing with you, because here's the thing. It would be really embarrassing, and it would be terrible, optically speaking, if the Biden administration admitted that what's currently taking place is

genocide, while also engaging in some of the backroom deals that are happening behind the scenes. What am I talking about? Well, Horat's reported this. U.S. President Joe Biden's energy security advisor is visiting Israel to discuss potential economic revitalization plans for Gaza centered around undeveloped offshore natural gas fields. There it is. This is exactly what Naomi Klein wrote about in the shock doctrine, which if you haven't read, I highly, highly, highly recommend you do. This is disaster capitalism in a nutshell. This is an opportunity. Seize the day. One people's loss can be our treasure. And it's absolutely disgusting and sick, but I have to say I'm not surprised.

It's really incumbent on us to expect more from our government, to hold them accountable when on one hand they talk about the lack of humanitarianism in other countries, the brutalization of Muslims and countries like China. But then they turn around and greenlight the brutalization of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. And to be quite frank, the West Bank as well. That's been ongoing. This is the reality of the situation. It sucks and it's sick that our government lies to us. But when people tell you who they are, as Israeli politicians have been doing, we should believe them.

We got to take a break. But when we come back, we're going to have a fantastic interview. We're going to talk about why one man believes that the left is making a mistake in scoffing at those who are concerned about crime. We'll be right back. The rest of the news media says you should not fight for positive change. Welcome back to TYT. I'm your host, Anna Kasparian, and we've got a fantastic interview. for you. So let me set that up. Let me tell you what it's about. So as some of you may have

noticed, I've been covering more and more stories having to do with crime on the show that's been taking place over the last year. Some allege that this is a sign of some sort of right wing pivot. Others think it's a grift. A few have actually reached out to me privately, of course, to thank me for shedding light on these issues because it's affected them. Many of these people are workers who have dealt with kind of terrifying smash and grab incidents where individuals were armed. Others feel that their quality of life has been decimated as a result of rising crime in their communities. And many of these individuals happen to come from majority minority communities. But the tide seems to be shifting because while I felt alone on this issue on the left

for quite some time now, I think more and more people on the left, including progressives, are feeling comfortable speaking out and kind of shedding light on this and kind of demanding that the Democratic Party take this issue a little more seriously. One of those individuals is Paul Schofield, who recently wrote an opinion piece in the Washington Post titled, Liberals shouldn't scoff at people's fears of homelessness and crime. And in it, he makes several arguments that I've been at least trying to articulate on the show. Maybe I wasn't as good as doing so at doing so. But here are a few examples of what I'm talking about. He writes that as a political philosopher who studies homelessness and considers himself progressive, I found little to celebrate in this episode of culture war point scoring. By glibly dismissing people's feelings about open-air drug use, shoplifting, and human waste on the streets, liberals empower their ideological Many cities around the United States with significant homeless populations also have large numbers of low-income renters, people of color, and immigrants. Because these groups are less likely to have resources to buy their way out of a troubled neighborhood, they end up being the people whose kids are harassed by people under the influence of drugs on the way to school, the ones whose doorsteps are defecated on, and the ones whose sidewalks are made impassable by tents and trash.

And finally, he writes, they are the ones whose stores close early to avoid being stolen from and whose eateries move to the other side of town. To shrug this off or to dismiss it as mere conservative propaganda is profoundly unprogressive. Luckily, today we have Paul Schofield here with us. He's kind enough to spend some time with us to talk about this issue. He's an associate professor of philosophy at Bates College. He specializes in moral theory. and political philosophy, and he has written many pieces arguing for things like the necessity of guaranteed housing. So he doesn't just say he's progressive. He's definitely proven it in the work that he has published. So Paul, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us

today. Thanks for having me here. So let's start off with the title of your piece. Why do you feel that liberals are scoffing at people who are fearful due to the rise in crime and homelessness? Well, I sort of began the op-ed by talking about this segment that Fox News did, where they went around and interviewed progressives on the street of Seattle asking, you know, how they felt about, you know, they're living in a progressive hellscape. And the response they got was, you know, a bunch of, a bunch of individual progressive saying, what, what problems are you talking? about what trash. I don't see any problems here. I see laughing and singing and dancing. Then, you know, said the reporter said something about somebody shooting up around the corner and somebody said, oh, is that hurting you so bad? And so, you know, it's this sort of thing. I see it quite a bit on Twitter or X, whatever you want to call it. This attitude that

If you bring up these worries at all, if you comment on the thing that's happening right around the corner or right behind you, you're in some sense not, you know, progressive, liberal, you're a reactionary. And I'm beginning to really worry about this. Yeah, I mean, look, I totally agree with you. I saw the segment that you're referring to a friend of mine sent it to me. And to me, it was pretty clear that the residents of Seattle who were. talking about these issues in a glib manner just didn't want to give Fox News a win. They didn't want to be part of Fox News's propaganda. And I certainly don't begrudge them for it. But aside from that, I do think that there is an issue of denialism. To some extent, I think it might be generational because I remember when I was growing up, kids who ended up having to grow up in communities where there was drug dealing on the corner and open drug use, they tend to not have such a great shot at life, right?

They start at a deficit in life. And I remember that was one of the issues that politicians on a local level wanted to tackle. Now there seems to be this denial that that kind of environment is actually pretty destructive for the development and growth of children, that it's actually causing all sorts of problems within communities. you know, what people don't understand is when you don't feel safe in your own community, you're less likely to go outside, you're less likely to connect with other members of your neighborhood, you're less likely to exercise, you know, you live in fear. And that's not something that progressives should want to provide cover for,

it's something that they should want to find solutions for. And so what do you think are some of the areas where progressives can improve on their policy proposals in dealing with this rather than just kind of pretending like it's not a problem. Well, yeah, I think one possibility is that outdoor camping should be limited to certain areas of the city. Now, I think it matters a whole lot. The details here matter. And whether your response is reactionary or progressive, you know, it's going to be in the details. But if you have, If you limit camping to a particular part of the city or certain blocks or part of the park, you can also set up toilets. You can set up shower stations. You can focus in on that area for

outreach, which will be better for the people who were in the encampments to begin with. I think that that would make a big difference. And I also think that that would make a big difference. And I also think that doing that, and some cities are already beginning to do this, but I think I think the messaging there matters too. I think it matters that you say, well, you know, we're working on this. We see that you are, that your children are having to walk through, you know, piles of syringes on the way to school, and we're doing something about it right now. I think people will be much more patient if we, you know, if we acknowledge the situation that they're in. just walking around the tenderloin district in San Francisco,

there's open-air drug use everywhere. I think it makes sense to have, say, for supervised injection sites where those are the places that you go if you have an addiction. And I think we should make treatment available there. I don't know, I don't think that we should be arresting everyone and, you know, forcing them into jail. But I think that, but I think it's reasonable to give them a place to go and say that if you're going to do this, you have to do it there. I 1,000% agree with you on that. In fact, when you look at models that have worked in other countries, Portugal is a good example.

Portugal, with their drug decriminalization, had the right model to begin with, but then they unfortunately pivoted to a model that ended up being disastrous. And it's the model that we're deploying right now as we speak. Originally what Portugal did is they had safe injection sites that were specifically run by the government as opposed to nonprofits. And they would be, you know, yes, it was a safe injection site, safe use site where they would be monitored and it would prevent people from dying, which is incredibly important. But they would also be nudged in the direction of rehabilitation and treatment. So they can wean themselves off of this addiction. And it ended up being incredibly successful. Where it started to fail is where they cut funding for the program.

And then they decided to offload the work to nonprofits, which, look, to be quite frank here in Los Angeles, that's the model. And the nonprofits, I think, are patting their pockets with taxpayer money. And I don't just think it. You look at the finances of each nonprofit that's all publicly available information. And I don't really think that there's any reason that a group of executives at a nonprofit should be making, in some cases, half a million dollars a year combating homelessness and drug addiction. You know, it's very clear to me that there's misuse of funds there. But once you have this system kind of controlled by the government and the objective is clear and it's to get people off these addictions, I think that it could be much more successful.

And we're seeing it in Portugal. And I agree with you. I don't want to see people arrested for addiction. I think that's the wrong way to go. But I've always been in favor of, you know, legalizing and regulating. And that means, look, if we're going to have rules pertaining to public intoxication, if I'm not a lot, I'm not a cigarette smoker, but let's say I were, I can't just willy-nilly smoke wherever I want to smoke.

So why would it be acceptable for someone to smoke meth on the metro or the subway, which is a commonly, you know, accepted behavior now in major cities like Los Angeles, and New York, I want to move on a little bit, though, because I try to avoid conflating the issue of homelessness with the crime wave. There's definitely some crossover, but I am curious what your thoughts are, because, you know, in your piece, you do kind of like group it together. I want to ask you why you do that. Yeah, I, you know, I think there is somewhat of a danger there, but I think there's just an issue about general disorder, you know, where yes, some of those people committing the crimes are, you know, are unhoused. But then there are others who

come into the neighborhood because they see it as a place where there is a lot of disorder and they can just walk into a CVS and, you know, and take what they want. And so I think part of what's gone on, especially in the tenderloin, so I walked around for seven, seven, eight days while I was out there, I spent a lot of time. I saw very, very few police officers at all. Yeah, I saw tons of private security, no police officers. And it felt like it was a neighborhood that had just been abandoned. And so when you have that sort of thing going on, it's going to attract those who want to come in and do a smash and grab.

And so that, you know, I think that's the longer answer to, you know, why one might conflate these things. Yeah, that is a good point. And as I mentioned, there is some crossover. But there are certainly individuals who are not unhoused going around causing chaos. You know, we've covered many of those stories already, especially as it pertains to, you know, these stories. stores, convenience stores, the smash and grabs of jewelry stores, businesses are shutting down as a result of that. People are losing their jobs. It's a really big problem. And, you know, in regard to what you wrote about the tenderloin, I just, I think it's important for me to share this with the audience. So you're right that conservatives' claims about crime have been fact-checked and found to be somewhat misleading when the numbers are crunched, broken down, analyzed, and put into proper context. But after spending time in July doing research in San Francisco's tenderloin district, the At the center of the city's homelessness crisis in San Francisco, I find such nitpicking almost entirely academic, agreed, and then you continue to write, regardless of who's exaggerating what and what the numbers technically do or do not show, city employees shoveled mounds

of garbage off the sidewalks, everything smelled like urine, drug dealers operated in the open, And while I used to think that talk of stepping over bodies on the street was propagandistic exaggeration, I can report that I was indeed stepping over bodies. I experienced that last year. Someone had died of a drug overdose at the entrance of our building. And it was one of the most horrifying, traumatic things I've personally experienced. Yes, I guess I've lived a pretty privileged life, but I don't think anyone should have to experience that. And my heart absolutely broke. It was a young guy. He was probably in his 20s. And he was definitely

dead. And this continues to happen every single day all across the country. And there's just this lack of urgency to grapple with it. And I think that there's this weird libertarian strain within the progressive movement that I can't really understand. I don't know where it comes from. But, you know, final question for you, what do you think fuels that? I don't, I'm not exactly sure, but for some reason, the, there's, there is, as you say, this libertarian streak and there's this thought that being in favor of or, you know, pro-homeless person, an advocate for them involves, involves suggesting that we should never interfere with them

in any way. But I think that this ends up, you know, there's there are the activists, but it also ends up affecting those who are not entirely attuned to the issue. So they see that there's going to be some sort of

you know, you know, camp sweep in several, in several weeks and there, and those who are in the camp are going to be moved from one place to the other. And they think, well, if I'm, if I'm an advocate for the homeless, I should be against this sort of thing. And part of what I'm trying to do is suggest that if you're that person, you should also be

thinking about the ways in which both the encampments are affecting the people of color, the immigrants, the working people in the neighborhoods, but also thinking about, you know, whether or not your advocacy for, you know, allowing the unhealthy, house population to do sort of do whatever it wants, whether it's really helping them at all. I've become increasingly dubious when considering that. Paul, thank you so much for taking the time and being generous with us today. I love the conversation. I hope we can continue at some later date.

Keep up the great work. And thank you again for coming on. That'd be great. Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving. All right, everyone. We're going to take a brief break when we come back. We're going to give you an update on the hostage negotiations between Israel and Hamas.

Stick around. We'll give you the details on that and more. Welcome back to the show, everyone. I hope you guys enjoyed the interview we just did, but we got to get right back to some coverage on Israel, Gaza, and the hostage negotiations that have been taking place. So let's do it. Just last night, Israel's government reached a hostage deal with Hamas. Now, the terms of the deal should be taken with a grain of salt. And the reason why I say that is because right before we went live today, some of the terms of this deal had already changed. So I just want to note that as we share these details with you right now at 357 p.m. Pacific time on, on, you know, Thanksgiving Eve on Wednesday, don't hold us to it because the details could change and I don't want you guys to think that we're giving you misinformation. But here's what we know as it stands at this moment. Under the current terms of the deal, there will be a four-day pause in bombing. It was supposed to begin to begin to. on Thanksgiving. However, now it appears that that has changed and they will begin the hostage exchange on Friday instead. Now, during that time, 50 Israeli hostages will be exchanged for 150 Palestinian prisoners. And I want to be clear about who these prisoners are. They're women and

children. They're not, they're not Hamas militants. Okay, let's just put it that way. And that's a good development. Okay, it's good to see that there's at least some movement when it comes, some positive movement as it pertains to these hostages and a pause in the aerial bombardment that the IDF has been engaging in. But aid workers are calling the temporary pause in bombing, woefully inadequate to assist the Palestinian people who have for the most part been cut off from food, water, and fuel. And the government of Israel and the United States are really showing no sign of easing up on the brutality after the hostages are swapped. Now we'll get to more of that in just a bit. But first, here are some additional details about

the hostage deal. According to Israeli and Hamas officials, the ceasefire will begin, according to Israeli and Hamas officials, the ceasefire will begin at 10 a.m. Well, it was supposed to begin 10 a.m. local time on Thursday, meaning tomorrow. But now it appears it's going to start on Friday. Both Hamas and Israel will be released. releasing captive women and children. Per the Guardian, the U.S. official stated that three Americans will be among the hostages released by Hamas. In fact, just today, John Kirby was asked how many American hostages are being held in Gaza. And he doesn't even know for sure, but they're estimating that there are as many as 10 American hostages in Gaza.

And part of this deal indicates that three of them will be released as part of the exchange. of the exchange. Now Israel has stated that it would extend the pause in bombing by one day for every 10 additional hostages that Hamas releases. And there's a lot that we still don't know. And it's important to put that out there. Okay, so we don't know which Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners will be released. Israel apparently has some sort of shortlist of 300 Palestinians, but has yet to narrow that list down to 150, that they are willing to release in exchange for the Israeli hostages. And we don't know exactly how much aid will be permitted to enter Gaza as part of the deal. There are some reports indicating that Israel will allow

up to 300 trucks of aid into the strip every day. But even if that's true, you should keep in mind that it is inadequate considering that prior to the war, there were as many as 500 plus trucks of aid entering the Gaza Strip every day. Now after the exchange, Hamas will still be holding around 200 hostages, according to Israel. And Israel will still be holding literally thousands of Palestinians. According to the Palestinian Prisoner Society, 7,200 prisoners are currently being held by Israel, among them 88 women. And 200, 50 children, 17 and under, the plight of prisoners is a key issue for Palestinians. At least four in 10 Palestinian men spend at least some time in their life in Israeli prisons.

A few weeks ago, I saw a video that was absolutely heartbreaking on social media. It featured a Palestinian woman, older woman. She seemed to be, you know, potentially a senior. She was getting arrested because of something she liked on social media. Obviously not a physical threat or imminent threat to anyone. We're talking about an old lady who's Palestinian and is probably horrified at the brutalization of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. But, you know, they can't really speak freely about what they think because they risk getting arrested. And that's what happened to this woman.

Now, many of those Palestinian prisoners may not have a home to return to. That's something else to keep in mind. It is estimated 1.7 million people out of 2.3 million in Gaza have been displaced by the conflict, many of whom are living in tents in the south of the strip, just as the weather is deteriorating. And according to the BBC, the hostage deal does not allow the displaced residents of Gaza to go back and check on their homes. very likely their homes have been bombed, but they're not even allowed to go back and check. What is the point of this agreement if we are not able to go back to the north and find out what

happened to our homes in residential areas? They tell me, visibly frustrated and heartbroken. That was a report from the BBC. And as for the United States government, Politico has published a piece that explains that the Biden administration believes that the hostage deal is actually a vindication of their near absolute support of his, I would even say near absolute support, their absolute unwavering, devoted love and commitment to Israel. Okay. So according to the same piece, by the way, the Biden administration still has a few worries. Let's start with this one. There was some concern in the administration about an unintended consequence of the pause, meaning the pause in the aerial bombardments that Israel has been carrying

out, that it would allow journalists broader access to Gaza and the opportunity to further illuminate the devastation there and turn public opinion on Israel. So great job. Great job trying to censor media or withhold information from the American public, who happened to live in a system that is supposed to what value democracy. And let me tell you something, democracy ain't crap if you don't have an informed public, an informed electorate. The fact that the Biden administration is more concerned about the American people finding out about the brutality carried out in the Gaza Strip, rather than wanting to do something

to protect those civilians, tells you a lot about the Biden administration, if you ask me. The administration's other concern, though, is warranted. The administration remains wary about Netanyahu's endgame and is seeming and seeming lack of a plan for what to do once Hamas is defeated. There was no sense that the pause would turn into a lengthier ceasefire, a senior administration official said. And it's clear that the Israeli government is more than willing to resume their brutal military campaign. The military assault on northern Gaza has resulted in only one hostage being rescued alive. So that's how successful the IDF's actions and the Gaza Strip have been, in terms of saving the hostages. To be quite frank, I really do question whether the safety and return of the hostages was really a priority to begin with.

To me, it seems like Netanyahu's right-wing government is more concerned about getting the family members of these hostages off their backs, because if you're worried about the safety of those Israeli hostages, those poor people who have been just terrorized and continue to be terrorized as they're held captive in Gaza and they're dealing with the bombardments, maybe you would rethink dropping all those bombs. Maybe you would reconsider restricting the flow of food, water, aid, fuel into the Gaza Strip. Because remember, if the hostages are in the Gaza Strip, they're dealing with what the Palestinian civilians are dealing with. So again, it's hard for me to really buy what the Israeli government is selling in their faux concern for the hostages. I really do hope

that they make it home safely. I hope that they do make it out alive. But I really have very little faith in both the Israeli government and quite frankly the United States government when it comes to proceeding with caution and doing so in a responsible way that will keep civilians on both sides safe. Anyway, with that said, we got to take a break. That does it for the first hour. When we come back, John Ida Rola will be joining me for the second hour of the show. Don't miss it.

Thanks for listening to the full episode of the Young Turks. Support our work. Listen ad-free. Access members, only bonus content, and more. by subscribing to Apple Podcasts at apple.com slash t-y-t. I'm your host, Shank Huger, and I'll see you soon.