The Young Turks - Lemon Vs. Musk with Don Lemon

Episode Date: March 20, 2024

On the heels of losing his deal with X, Don Lemon joins Cenk and Ana to dish about his contentious interview with emotionally sensitive Elon Musk. Lemon gives his take on Elon Musk's "free speech absolutist" hypocrisy, social media moderation, and wading into the hostile world of digital media. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to the Young Turks, the online news show. Make sure to follow and rate our show with not one, not two, not three, not four, but five stars. You're awesome, thank you. Jane Hugo, I'm a Casparian with you guys. We're going to talk to Don Lemon in a second about his controversial interview with Elon Musk. Let's take a quick look at a quick piece of it. Contrary to what you might have heard, we weren't canceled by X. Yes, after months of begging me, wooing me to offer some exclusive content on his platform,

Elon Musk decided to scrap the deal. But our plan is, and always has been, to release this show everywhere. And I challenge you, Elon, to watch the whole interview and tell the world why this isn't what you claim you want on X. So we did watch the whole interview. Don Lemon, of course, now has his own show. And you can find it at YouTube.com slash the Don Lemon show.

And I thought it was more aggressive than Don said it was. And I found myself a time. a little bit sympathetic to Elon Musk, which I was surprised by. So we're gonna talk to Don about that and let's bring him in now. Don, good to have you on the Young Turks. Thank you, Jank. It's good to be on. I appreciate you guys doing it. Hi Anna.

Hi, hi, Don, how are you doing? I'm doing great, thank you. Yeah, so I want to ask you about the subsequent of the interview in one second. But first, Anna's got a question for you. I have a question that I hope you don't take any offense to, but it's the number one. You can ask me anything. Number one thing I'm deeply, deeply curious about. So let's quickly just go to this graphic because it explains the heart of my question here.

So sources exclusively tell the rap that Lemon has agreed to a separation deal with CNN for approximately $24.5 million, which would be the full complete pay from his final contract, which extended three and a half years from his ousting. Okay, so why are you not in Sorrento right now? Are on the Amalfi Coast as if I don't watch you. I went to the Amalfi Coast this summer. Anna, I went to Italy twice this summer. People invited me on their boats. I took extravagant great vacations because I was taking time off, honestly, to try to plot my next plan to figure out what I'm going to do.

I even met with Jank at a restaurant in in Soho, I think, to talk about my next move. So are you telling you telling you're a free man, Don, you're a free man, okay? You don't have to work for a living like we do, okay? You don't have to consume another minute of the news or report another minute of the news. You can be in Sorrento right now, free of all of it. But you know what, I give you credit for being passionate enough about this,

you know, line of work that you want to keep torturing yourself with it. But I just needed to know. Yeah, I didn't think that you were telling me to set up a dribble, right? No, of course not. No, it's a difficult and challenging job that's made even more difficult and challenging when you consider the changing business landscape associated with journalism. Yeah, I want to get back. Well, yeah.

And I sat down just quickly, I sat down with Jank and we talked about that. And that's one of the reasons that I am not actively pursuing or have not actively pursued employment in traditional media. This is the future of the medium that I'm used to and I'm going to lean into that. So I'm happy to be here and trying new things on your territory. This is your territory. Yeah, so we'll talk about that in a second. So let's do the heart of the interview. So Don, I saw your talking to other folks, you know, went on Aaron Burnett, show on CNN,

etc. It was good to see you back on CNN. And you were, you appear to be very surprised at Elon Musk's reaction. But after watching the interview, I wasn't that surprised. I was wondering when you, when he got angry and I thought before I watched the interview and I thought maybe when you brought up Kenamine or something, but he seemed like he was perfectly okay with that. It's that it's when you started talking about the great replacement theory.

And Don, you spent a lot of time on that. And I like aggressive interviews and I like follow up questions. But you had a ton of follow up questions and you were very tough and aggressive. So I wound up thinking that I was surprised that you were surprised that he had a negative reaction to it, especially given Elon Musk. Did you think that that interview was very aggressive? Well, first of all, I didn't think it was very aggressive. And I wasn't surprised that Elon Musk was that, I'm surprised that he became upset by it.

Because Elon Musk is a grown man, he is a multi-billionaire, he is in charge of very important things in the world. And he is also put out into the world, especially through his social media site, some very negative things, which is he can do it if he wants his site. But I wanted to know if he felt any responsibility to that. Not only did he, does he put those things out, some of them go against his own content policy rules. And some of them are not factual. Many of them are not factual and some are racist and anti-Semitic. So any journalists worth their salt would ask him about those things and follow up. And I think that's what I did.

I don't think the interview was aggressive at all. I never raised my voice in the interview. I simply asked him questions and I followed up. One of the things that you took him to task on was the advertisers that have since left the platform ever since he took over. There are multiple reasons why they've left, but apparently Elon Musk doesn't want to take any responsibility for his business choices, essentially shooing some of these advertisers away. So I wanted to go to that portion of the interview, just so our audience can see what we're talking about when we talk about how aggressive you were in that interview, which I think is a

good thing. I prefer that over milk toast, boring, you know, pandering questions. But nonetheless, let's take a quick look at that portion. So you said if they kill the company, it's them, but doesn't the bucks stop with you? I mean, you're on it. I have to say, I choose your question carefully. There's five minutes left. Okay, but so is this the question you want to ask? The same question is you said, you said that they are killing the company, but you're the head of the company. But doesn't stop with you? I acquired X in order to preserve freedom of speech in America, the First Amendment.

And I'm going to stick to that. And if that means making this money, so be it. So I have to be, listen, I'm just being honest, right? I'm not trying to, like, get you or anything. I was just surprised that you would blame other people for killing the company. I mean, you're the, I mean, when you say the buck stops with the president of the United States,

regardless of what happens, right? So I, why would that question upset? You seem upset by it, are you? I think you're not. I'm not trying to upset you. Well, you are upsetting it because the way you're phrasing questions, I think, is not cogent. I thought it was rather cogent and he looks incredibly upset. Were you afraid for your safety at any moment during that interview?

Because it looked like he was ready to murder you. No, he did have, he did have some big security guards and big dudes around him. No, I wasn't afraid for my safety. And listen, I have, I have interviewed all kinds of people. Yeah, you know, I always say I've interviewed presidents to convicts to, you know, just all kinds of people. Many people I disagree with. I've had many tough interviews. I've never had someone this sensitive. And I actually agree with Jank. I found I didn't feel sorry for him during the interview. And I'm not, you know, there's nothing to feel sorry for him about.

Elon Musk has a, you know, a good life. He said he had a hard life as a childhood. So did I. So did many people. But I did feel some empathy for him because I thought that he was, he has a lot on his plate. I mentioned that in the interview. And I think that he is uncomfortable with people challenging him and presenting him with facts. And I think that he is, you know, I, in my opinion, a bit emotionally immature or maybe a bit emotionally vulnerable might be a better way of putting it. So I did empathize with him in a way. But my intention was not to have a gotcha interview or to get him. It was to allow him to be able to speak.

They said they wanted at least an hour, which is what we granted them, because I don't like sound bites. And I said that in the beginning. So I was glad about that to get to know him. And that's all it was. So, you know, all of the talking, he did himself. Yeah. So by the way, you can watch the whole interview again at YouTube.com slash the Don Lemon Show. Don, I want to follow up on that, though, because sometimes I got frustrated in the interview

because I felt like you guys were talking past each other, to be honest. We were right on, you're right on about that. We were right, yes, go on, finish your question. I'm sorry. So on the issue of advertisers, free speech, moderation, censorship, I want to get your thoughts on it, because you're the one here and you had a really interesting set of questions for him. And you kind of debated him back and forth on it. So look, I think he's oftentimes inarticulate,

that's not his strength. But let's start with advertisers. I think that he makes an interesting point there, which is advertisers get to control everything that goes on these platforms. And I think that people don't understand the power of advertisers. So even though he's wrong on the substance of,

I think he's wrong on the substance of what he's getting in a beef with advertisers over, right? He's not wrong that they say, set all of the rules and he is doing a bit of a rebellion against what is ironically their conservative nature, not in terms of politics, but in terms of how they conduct their business. So the example I'll give you is that oftentimes on different social media platforms, discussion, and you'll see this now that you're on digital media, discussions of whether someone is saying something racist or someone is combating racism

are blocked because advertisers say, I don't want any piece of it. It's controversial, I don't want plus, I don't want negative, I don't want it at all. And you saw what happened with Bud Light and the trans controversy, et cetera. So advertisers say if you're having interesting conversations, we will block it. So he's not exactly wrong about that. So what's your take on that position, maybe articulated a little bit better? No, I think you're right. I think, listen, I've learned a lot with this.

That wasn't my question to him, though. But just on what you just said, I think you're right. I find that people don't want to advertise around politics. You know that jank? They don't want to advertise around news. They're very hesitant to do that because they don't want to take a position. They don't want something to happen to them like what happened with Bud Light or any other, you know, company that has taken a stance and has faced some sort of boycott. That is unfortunate. I don't agree with that.

I think that they should be advertising around these things because it's very important for our electorate and Americans and people all over the world to be educated and to know what they're voting for. And I think it is important for companies to take stances and to stand up for misinformation, to stand up for against misinformation, stand up against conspiracy theorists, to stand up against insurrectionists, to stand up against people who are election deniers. So I think that is very important and I understand that. And so if if someone is concerned about that, on the, on this side of the camera that we're on, then perhaps maybe they want to change what they do. But my whole point of it is whether you or I, Jank, agree with that, that is that advertisers' freedom of speech or freedom of expression.

They don't want to advertise in your program. That is their right. They don't have to. We don't like it. I don't like it. You don't like it. He doesn't like it. He doesn't like it. But that is their right. So you simply can't say, I believe in freedom of speech, except for the freedom of speech, these advertisers, that that would be hypocritical. Yeah. And so what, and so it's not the advertiser's fault that they're not advertising on his platform. It's his fault. And so he has to figure out how to entice those advertisers or whatever in his own business as you or I would. It's unfortunate, but that's their right. Yeah, you know, I agree with only two

thirds of that. Okay. So I agree that it's definitely the advertisers right. They have the freedom of speech as well, no question about that. And you can figure out how to change it. There are things that we can do to figure out how to change that. Right. That are things that we can do to appeal to people's, you know, the better nature of advertisers, which is tough because that's only about that's very that's all they want to do.

Yeah. And I agree with you that the buck stops with leadership. And so I run this network and it's my job to make sure that it's sustainable given the landscape that we're in. You know, and if you don't like the landscape, sad day, but it is what it is and you have to survive and you have to make do. But he is leading a bit of a rebellion against the advertiser ideology that you must agree with their positions, otherwise they will not advertise with you. And that part I respect a little bit, but I want to go to the- I do too. I agree with you 100%. When I saw him at deal book, I was like,

wow, that is really, that is really you know what of him. I can say ballsy, that's not a curse word, of him to do that. Yeah. To stand up to those advertisers that way and put his business in jeopardy. But again, you know, that's him saying that. It's not the advertisers. They just decided not to advertise on that platform. Yeah, I totally agree with you. I think I think that he's making a very good point. And I wish we all had that amount of money where we could stand up for advertisers against advertisers who, you know, do the things that you're saying.

And he does. So he gets to do it, right? Because he's the rich man in the world. And so, okay. But that wasn't part of our conversation. No, I totally agree. That's why I brought up here. And so I want to go to the free speech versus moderation.

versus censorship, because again, there I felt like you guys were talking past each other a little bit. So look, everyone, I think almost everyone gets, you can't be absolutist on free speech and you can't be absolutist on censorship, right? So, and he is hypocritical because he kept telling you, well, we allowed these hateful things on the platform, but we don't serve it up to people as much. Well, then I could argue that's a form of censorship, right? And so he never addressed But on the other hand, Don, you know, you showed like some terrible cartoons, you know, as you were doing it of the Jewish stereotypes and they're awful, etc. And so it's easy to look at that and say, well, you should ban that, right? But isn't it much, much harder

than that? Because the question is where are the lines? So for example, Ben Shapiro, you know, in 2010 said that Arabs love like to bomb crap and live in open sewage. It's a horribly hateful thing to say, you know, there's no accountability for it, etc. But I don't mind that he said it because then at least I know where he stands. And I've been called every name in the book in terms of my Muslim background, Turkish background, let alone everything else. But I want to cheat towards more freedom and not less because I don't mind the battle of ideas. And I don't even mind if they say it in an offensive or horrible way, because at least I know where they stand. So, you know, it's definitely something that is not in the extremes and it's not binary.

But when you get into the hard middle of how to decide that, can you see why allowing for what some would call hate speech could be, as long as it's legal, as he kept emphasizing, maybe it is not such a wrong way to go. You see what I'm saying? Yes and no, because, listen, before I came on, your producers reminded me not to curse, right? So that's a form of moderation, moderating your platform, and I am respectful of that. And so Ben Shapiro and Elon Musk are two different entities. Elon Musk's, Elon Musk owns one of the biggest social media and information platforms in the world. Ben Shapiro does not do that. Ben Shapiro has an agenda as a talk show host, as an advocate for Jewish people, as an activist. That is a completely different thing.

Elon Musk is responsible for, not only for the content that goes on that platform, for the business of that platform, for the employees who may or may not have a job on that platform, but also for the people who are a Tesla, for a big portion. of the auto industry or the economy in this country as it relates to the auto industry, as it relates to batteries, as it relates to solar powered, you know, or electric cars or whatever, as it relates to rockets that go up into space as it relates to satellites. He affects, he is a very consequential person in the country. And what he says, a lot of people listen to the context of the question, the questions that I was asking him about, it was about hate speech. Now, if you don't want someone to say a bad, a cuss word on your platform, then you shouldn't be allowing people to put hate speech and hate propaganda on a platform.

And it doesn't matter how many times it is out there if you suppress it, which I want to get into that. It only takes one person. It only takes one buffalo shooter. It only takes one synagogue shooter. It only takes one person shooting at immigrants who are crossing the border. It only takes one person, especially when you look at the manifestos of those people and they tell you the ones who do survive and they don't get killed by, you know, in a shootout by police or the SWAT team, they will tell you, or even through their manifestos or personally, they were radicalized by information that they saw. on social media. So what is the responsibility for someone who owns one of the biggest social media platforms in the world? You have no responsibility to even abide by the own rules that you set on your own platform.

If you say, okay, that stuff gets by and we take it down, the stuff that we had had been up there for months. And so if your own content policy says that is against your content rules, why is it is still up there. That was my question. The other thing is don't you feel any responsibility as somewhat of consequence. I respect Elon Musk a lot for what he has accomplished. But everyone at some point has responsibility for what they put out into the world and what they do. And so when you do something on this platform, jink, the buck stops with jink. When I do something, the buck stops with me. When Anna does something, the buck stops with her. Same as with the President of the United States when a producer or someone when I was on cable news or a writer that got something wrong and it came out of my mouth.

You know who took responsibility for it for it? Me. I didn't throw someone under the bus or say, well, it's just out there. And there's a lot of stuff that comes through and everything can't be. I can't do whatever. No, I'm sorry, viewers, that that got out to you. It was offensive. I know it was.

It hurt some people and it can possibly leap to violence and even death. I apologize for that. It won't happen again. End of story. Yeah. So I hear you 100%. I think the devil's in the details because the real answer to the question you asked them of why aren't you doing your own content policies? Because he fired three quarters of his staff. That's why he's not doing it. Right? But nevertheless, for free speech, I agree with you. I'm going to fight for your right to be able to say it. If you're going to be totally free speech, then be totally free speech. don't have content policies.

It is a free for all. It's a wild wild west. We let everybody go. As long as it's not illegal, I'm sorry. That's how I feel. But don't be him and on doing this, trying to appease or advertisers, trying to do that.

No. Yeah. You know, by your own rules. Yeah. And there's so much nuance here too that we'll have to pick back up. Because like, for example, I think what the tweet that I mentioned of Ben Shapiro's, I think was definitely hateful and hate speech.

But I would have allowed it. And so, so that's a super interesting conversation. After watching the interview, I wanted an almost moderated debate on race, which is a whole different topic between you and Elon. Because again, you guys were- Let's do it. Yeah, I mean, that would be amazing. And I would love it. But I have time for only one last question here, which is what I promised in the beginning. Look, when I was on MSNBC, all I'd do was beat Chris Matthews by, you know, one viewer and I was a hero, right?

Because he was my lead in. And so I thought it was relatively easy. Digital media is super hard. And so because you've got to build the audience from the ground up. So I know you're just getting started here. I heard you know you said, now I got to be more of an entrepreneur on the pivot podcast with Kara Swisher and Galloway. And I think that's exactly right. So as you start here, how difficult have you found digital media to be versus TV?

Um, oh, it's a lot more difficult, but it's way more fun. And it's way more authentic. I mean, um, you know, I think if you listen to pivot, I said, I, you know, the system that I was in as akin to the old Hollywood system where, you know, they had stars and and talent and they took care of you and had a contract and you did this and so many, you know, I get to be to moderate so many debates and election season, blah, and all of that is built in. This is just, this is all us and all me. And, and, um, and it is more organic. And it's really, I find it to be more challenging, but more rewarding because it's actual people who are really interested in authenticity. And I'm trying to figure out how to navigate that. I'm learning a lot. I think I'm doing really well to, you know, considering the amount of people who have watched the first episode of the Don Lemon Show on YouTube. I think it's, I feel like I'm successful already. And with the small team that I have, and I'm sure you, you know, you probably have a bigger team than I have because you've been doing this for a long time. But the small team that I have, what we've done over the last couple of weeks, even before, you know, Elon Musk canceled our contract, I think it's just been extraordinary. And I'm, I couldn't be happier with what's happening right now. And I'm happy to be on your program. I hope to be on here again,

debating the issues with you guys. I love it. Don, let me just say, I mean, look, this industry is an incredibly difficult one. But what makes doing this job here at TYT worth it is that none of us are muzzled and we get to take the show in whatever direction we see fit. And that's so liberating and it makes the job a lot better. Okay, so I'm actually excited for you, you know, let it all loose, let it go. Do the show that you've always dreamed of doing because there's no one in your way stopping you. And that's just, again, the most liberating thing in this profession.

So big ups to you and keep asking those tough questions because that eventually will grow a brand that I think will have a lot of lasting power. So anyway, thank you for joining us. Yeah, thank you. And tell Jing, you know, stop being so hard on me and maybe we'll go to the Malticoast this summer. Forget about him. By the way, Elon, you notice he didn't walk out? Okay, that's how you do an interview. All right, everybody check out the interview.

that Don did with Elon Musk, it's at YouTube.com slash the Don Lemon Show. Don, thanks for joining us, appreciate it. Welcome. Thank you guys.