The Young Turks - Trouble In Turkey

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Morning Joe guest Steven Rattner: "Do we really want to go back to #MedicareForAll?" Trump goes on world’s most pathetic rant about a painting of him that he thinks is unflattering. David Pakman on TYT to discuss his new book. Turkey detains more than 1,000 in protests since Istanbul mayor's arrest. Hosts: Cenk Uygur SUBSCRIBE on YOUTUBE ☞ https://www.youtube.com/@TheYoungTurks FOLLOW US ON: FACEBOOK ☞ https://www.facebook.com/theyoungturks TWITTER ☞ https://twitter.com/TheYoungTurks INSTAGRAM ☞ https://www.instagram.com/theyoungturks TIKTOK ☞ https://www.tiktok.com/@theyoungturks 👕MERCH ☞ https:/www.shoptyt.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're listening to The Young Turks, the online news show. Make sure to follow and rate our show with not one, not two, not three, not four, but five stars. You're awesome. Thank you. All right, well, the young Turks, I'm your host, Jake Uger. So back from a couple of weeks in Europe, in one of these bonus episodes are old school. I'll tell you all about that trip. That trip was interesting, amazing, illuminating how the world views us and what's going on the rest of the world is fascinating.

We'll talk about that and on the program, especially for the members. Anna's out today, so I'm going to do the first hour alone today. So jumping right back into it. And then Sharon will join me in the second hour. Speaking of people joining me, two really interesting guests for you guys tonight. David Packman is going to join us. He's got a new book out. We're going to talk to him about that.

echo chamber, certainly within the, I'm sorry, the echo machine where he talks about the echo chamber in politics and in the right wing. I also want to talk to him about it in the left wing, so that could be an interesting conversation. And then Biden, the insider, joins us at one point in the show, and he's going to talk to us about how, yes, they gaslit us. They gaslit us on purpose about Biden's age and his ability to carry out the duties of his office, which is amazing. We've got some very serious stories in the show today, an authoritarian turn, both in Turkey. And I would argue here in America, some awful developments since I lasted the show here in the U.S. And then finally, in a little bit, I'll do one fun and funny story

for you guys about Donald Trump, too. So we got everything on tonight's show. So let's get Let's start. The message Bernie Sanders and AOC, take that to McComb County. And in the words of Hank Williams, senior, you'd be set in the woods on fire. I mean, that's a strong message that wins in places like McComb County. What in the world's going on? Joe Scarborough praising Bernie Sanders and AOC and saying that they would win in the middle of the country, that's from the network and the show in particular that has despised Bernie

Sanders that has helped to defeat Bernie Sanders in 2016 and 2020. And now all of a sudden they realize that maybe Bernie Sanders and AOC have the right message. Wow, but hold because there is going to be a member of the panel who is a giant corporatist who's going to tell us, but don't ever do their policies, to which I say, of course. But what are they praising here in the first place. Well, I want to show you some clips from AOC in a sec. If you haven't seen Bernie and AOC have been doing tour around the country where they're going, getting really large crowds and actively putting forward a positive message for the Democratic Party saying here are the things that we should do. Here's who we should fight against and here's what we

should stand for. I want to show you clips to that and react to it. First, let's watch AOC. We are witnessing an oligarchy in America. And that is when those with the most economic, political, and technological power destroy the public good to enrich themselves while millions of Americans pay the price. And we are at a point where the wealthiest people in the world like Elon Musk and all the Republicans enabling him. are turning to loot what is left of Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security to bankroll even deeper tax cuts and sweetheart contracts for themselves, their fellow billionaires, and their corporations. There we go.

Here, here. Finally, economic populism. This is exactly what we should be doing. So you've seen me criticize AOC, you've seen me give her credit. Why do I do that? I know that in the rest of the media world, you either love someone or you hate someone, they're either 100% right or 0% right. No, we are fair on this show.

So when she's doing things that don't make sense, yes, we criticize from time and time. But here she is doing something great. I like this a lot. So first of all, they're fighting the oligarchy and constantly pointing out the thing that you should be pointed out. Elon Musk is the top donor to Donald Trump. Elon Musk is the top donor to Donald Trump. He's a corporatist. He wants corporate power.

Look, I'll add on top of it, and they've been doing a great job on this tour. But what are we doing? Are we, did we cut any oil subsidies? Did we cut any defense contracts? No, we didn't cut any of that. Did we cut any corporate subsidies? Did we cut subsidies to Elon Musk companies? No, we didn't do any of that.

So they cut from the people who can least afford it and they continue to give it in trillions of dollars to the giant corporations in this country. And she is right, they are looting Medicaid. They're set to do about $800 billion in cuts in the committee that is that oversees Medicaid. That's already in their budget proposal that has passed the House. And so that is the Republican plan. By the way, are they going to cut defense? No, they're gonna add $100 billion to defense.

So look guys, asking them to cut defense and having them agree shows you when they don't do it and they actually add $100 billion that they never meant it. And not only does it show to the left, it already knows that, but it also shows the independence and yes to some MAGO folks who really believe them, who really believe that they were gonna cut these things. No, they haven't touched corporations at all, and yes, Elon Musk has talked about, oh, Social Security is a big scam. It's a pyramid scheme. Why? Because they got to pay for $4.5 trillion in tax cuts to the richest people in this country. And

again, to corporations over and over again. You know, I was on Peers Morgan earlier today and we're having to debate about this. And I said, look, they said, well, you know, we're trying something new. Are you? Is Trump and Musk? Are they trying something new? Because I don't see it, it looks like the same old Republican Party, giant tax cuts for the wealthiest people in the country and take it out on the poor. And forget the poor. I mean, don't forget the poor. The poor you have to protect as well. But the middle class, they're taking it from all the things that you need in Social Security and Medicare. And by the way, one more thing before I go back to AOC. What happened to negotiating drug prices? That would save billions, might even save

trillions in the long run. But they haven't touched the drug. companies. And the right wing, you know, with all the vaccine talk and big pharma, they hate big pharma. The voters do. So what does must done about it? Zero. So far, what has Trump and RFK Jr. done about it? Zero. So they're going to cut from you, but they're going to add to the corporate loot. So AOC goes further. Fox News and the right wing will have you believe that these American values are something out of the communist manifesto, that we believe these things because we went to college and read them in a book somewhere. But let me tell you, Fox News, I don't believe these things. I don't believe in health care, labor, and human dignity

because I'm a Marxist. I believe it because I was a waitress. Because I scrubbed toilets with my mom to go to school because I've worked double shifts to keep the lights on. And because on my worst day, I know what it feels like to feel left behind. And I know that we don't have to live like this anymore, Las Vegas. We deserve better than this, Las Vegas. Okay, so I love the speech. I love the tour. We're asking you guys, is Bernie and AOC strategy good for the Democratic Party?

that's on the live chat. Watch the show Monday through Friday, 6 to 8 p.m. Eastern, you get to participate in the show. I'm not surprised so far, 89% of course, saying that it's good. But I was surprised that morning Joe was in favor of it, but hold, hold, because are they really going to do this? Because if the Democratic Party talks a good game, but when it comes to actually taking action, that's where they fall massively short. So is Steve Ratner, someone who's involved in the Obama administration is someone who comes from Wall Street in the banking community. So you know this is going to be good. Is he going to be on board for the actual policies? Well, let's watch. I think everything Sanders and AOC are saying is fine, but you got, but then

you get to the policies. Do we really want to go back to Medicare for all, the Green New Deal, defund the police, women playing men's sports potentially? Do we really want to, that's where I think, ultimately we lost because those people who make less than $50,000 a year couldn't relate to these, to the left, far left policies. See, guys, look, I know that there's tons of disagreement on whether, you know, me in particular and others should have made a clear distinction between far left and populist left, economic populism and identity politics. And I know some of the left hate that distinction, and they don't want that distinction.

They think it's an internal fight, we don't need it, and we should all be 100% on board for as left wing a position as you could possibly imagine, and we should be a maximalist in our position. But why did I do that? Why are we insisting on that distinction? Because I knew the Stephen Ratner's of the world were going to do this, that they were going to go ahead and lump in Medicare for all and also incredibly, by the way, which is a very, very popular policy, oftentimes pulling around 70%. Paid family leave, pulling at 84%, higher minimum wage, pulling at 67%, all these enormously popular policies with defund the police and trans women playing in professional sports. And then go, nobody likes it. They're all unpopular. No, that's not true. So the economic policies are enormously popular. That's why Bernie and AOC are lighting up the country talking about them. And people are desperate for that kind of talk. They're desperate for those policies. Yes, unfortunately, defund the police, et cetera, are unpopular policies.

Now, I happen not agree with them in the first place, so it's easier for me. But guys, they're going to try to put that albatross around our neck. And that is why it's super clear to delineate. What does it mean to be progressive? What does it mean to be on the left? Who speaks for the left? So that's why I keep saying, look, I'm on the side of Bernie Sanders, Rocah, et cetera. When they're talking about the core issues that we care about that are going to make everyone in

country better off. Every single person, that's what we have to fight for. What identity politics and cultural wars do is they divide us. They help the Republicans create a wedge between us. That's why they're called wedge issues. So don't let them do that. Even if you don't agree with me and you want maximum positions or whatever you want on the left side, you have to make that distinction. Because if you don't, they're going to say, oh yeah, paid family leave, Medicare for all. All these issues are so unpopular because they're quote, quote far left. No, those are populist left. Those are yes, we're under the same umbrella progressive, but that distinction makes a giant, giant, giant difference.

One side is super popular and must get done on behalf of all Americans. And the other side is not popular. And it's not protecting minorities. Both the right wing and the left wing, I feel like, or the far left and the far right are almost working together. No, look, do we need to protect minorities? Of course, do we need to protect Muslims and trans people, et cetera? Of course, of course. But defunding the police does not equal protecting minorities. How do I know that? First of all, I know because it's by definition, there's a giant disagreement on how you protect minorities. But minorities have spoken out about this. Liberals and leftists and Democrats have all spoken out through the ballot box.

So when you have places like New York, San Francisco, Washington, D.C., Portland, Seattle, Oakland, saying we don't want to defund the police. And they're voting in that direction. Oakland, again, I keep pointing this out because it's so telling. Black and brown communities, middle class and poor communities, all saying together, no, we don't want decriminalization. They voted 65 to 35 to oust their mayor that was going in their perceived, according to to their perception, that she was going in that direction.

So guys, that's why we cannot get stuck with the unpopular positions that actual Democratic voters, black and brown voters, do not want. It's not just the Republicans don't want them, the independents don't want them. Democratic voters don't want them. On the other hand, we have these golden economic policies that the country's desperate for. And what are they going to do here? One more from Steve Ratner about, I mean, like, yeah, the talk is fine. and we could, you know, give them a little pat on the head, but we're not going to do any of their policies.

So whose policies should we do? Of course, he picks a very conservative corporateist Democrat. Watch. The rhetoric is great about Donald Trump, but then you get to the policies, and Alyssa Slotkin is speaking, I think, more the reality of what we have to do as a party. Of course. So what do they do? They say, oh, nice job, Bernie and AOC. Oh, yeah, good. Way to get the voters back. Get them all back. But we're not gonna do those policies, we're gonna do Slotnix policies. That's pro military industrial complex, big pharma, and all the corporations that are their donors that are robbing us blind. Look, later, we have another story about Bernie, and again, he's so reluctant to call out his own side.

Just a mere mention of calling out his Democratic colleagues, like, sends him to want to leave an interview. And it drives me crazy, but look, again, you can criticize and give credit at the same time, depending on what they're doing and what their actions are. So Bernie and AOC overall, I love this tour, keep it going, and not only fight for the rhetoric, but fight for the policies, which is exactly what they're doing. And don't be fooled by, you know, the rhetoric of mainstream media and MSNBC, pretending they're on our side. At the end of the day, for the next Bernie, for the next AOC, no one will fight.

harder than MSNBC in Morning Joe. And I guarantee, if Morning Joe is supporting a populist candidate in the Democratic primaries, I would be shocked. I would fall out of this chair. It's never going to happen. Instead, what they're going to do is, well, I mean, I'm glad they brought the voters back in. But, you know, we're not really going to do these far-left policies. They're all defund the police and trans and et cetera.

No, no, no, no, no, no. Keep the corporate gravy train going. No, don't keep the corporate gravy chain going. instead fight back for the average America. And that's what the populist left needs to do. And I love that Bernie and AOC are doing it. All right. So now, let's do a, oh, we got to take a break.

Okay. So I'll tell you the fun Trump story. I'll tell you about the coup going on in Turkey right now and a little bit. But when we come back, David Pacman, he's got a new book out talking about echo chambers on the right. Let's talk about that. Let's also talk about echo chambers on the left. We'll be right back. The new BMO VI Porter MasterCard is your ticket to more, more perks, more points, more flights, more of all the things you want in a travel rewards card, and then some.

Get your ticket to more with the new BMO ViPorter MasterCard and get up to $2,400 in value in your first 13 months. Terms and conditions apply, visit bemo.com slash the iPorter to learn more. I'm concerned daddy's back and he's taking his belt off, you've been a bad girl. Okay, I was amused by that tuck across the reference. I wanted to read that to you guys. All right, love being back. Now, let's do a great guest for you guys. Joining me now is David Packman.

Of course, host of the David Packman show, and now the author of the Echo Machine, how right-wing extremism created a post-truth America. David, welcome, brother. Thanks for having me. No problem. So tell me about the right-wing echo machine. around a long time. Is it this, and as you're doing that, is it the same as it's always been,

or is it a little bit different now? It's different. The story I tell basically goes back to the late 50s, and Trumpism as a sort of consequence stemmed from the opposition to the civil rights movement that started around 58. Of course, opposition to the 1964 Civil Rights Act. It went through Reagan. It went through Gingrich taking over the house in 94, Bush, opposition to Obama. And so in the context of the book, this is an echo machine that's been built kind of alongside the last 60 years of right wing ideology. It involves media. It involves elected officials. It involves focus groups and consultants and all of that stuff. But it really sees Trump more as a consequence rather than as the cause of a lot of this stuff. So, but yet Trump has had

a complicated relationship with the, you know, 800 pound gorilla in right wing media, which is Fox News. They helped to build them up. And then there was conflict between the two. And how did that get resolved? I mean, was it all like back in the old days, let me put it this way, David. You knew Fox News and George Wubbush and Dick Cheney were on the same page. They were putting out the same message. And there was never any variance, right? But with Trump, it's different than that. So tell me about that relationship real quick. It is different. If you look at the micro, of course, in 2016, Fox was pretty late to coming around. This is going to be the nominee and we should get behind them. It looked like there was skepticism from Fox about Trump being the nominee. Not so much in 2020, but certainly in 2024. But I know we're going to talk about what happens on the Democratic side. One of the things that I explain in the book is that the echo machine of the right has been really good for them in terms of seizing power, which at the end of the day is really, what matters. Politics is about power, whereas the echo machine for for Democrats has been more

destructive. And that's kind of how I would characterize the relationship with Fox News, which is, yes, there have been back and forth. You would occasionally hear sort of nominal voices of reason or questions about the way Trump perceived that he should run the country and run as a candidate. But the big picture is that the entire machine has been useful to the right for seizing power. And it's been destructive for the left. Yeah. So I want to get to the left in a second. But now we have a much more complicated media ecosystem, in my opinion, because in the old days, it was just Fox News and Rush Limbaugh and talk radio. And they'd just, again, they'd print out talking points, and no one would vary. Now you've got

the Brosephir, you know, the Rogans, the Theo Vons, et cetera that are a little bit different. You've got online folks, Patrick, but David, Tim, Poole, all these guys. And they're not all on the same message. They disagree in parts. And then of course, they agree on the major issues. So how has that affected the echo machine? Well, here's the thing. What that sort of dissent or veneer of dissent has done is it has played really well for something you and I have talked about before, which is that if you're nominally on the left or you've supported Democrats or whatever, and you find some issue where maybe you're kind of unsure or you're not on the same page on some issue, they welcome you.

And the great thing about those variances in that right wing echo machine is that at the end of the day, they really do all support Trump and helped his reelection, but you can find the place where you're, you will immediately be welcomed to someone who starts questioning and saying, I don't know, I think Trump's not good, but here's an issue I have with Democrats I don't like this. The left has done the opposite. And to the extent that the echo machine exists on our side, it's been exclusionary rather than inclusionary. So you're right that there's this diversity of opinion, at least nominally. But at the end of the day, Tim Poole supported Trump, PBD supported Trump, Fox News came around to Trump. Yes, different flavors and

versions. But in total, they're supporting what is the ultimate goal. Right, until you get the actual policy, right? Because yes, and that's where I don't think we have the answer yet, because we have not had a giant clash. We had a small clash over when Trump said we're going to put boots on the ground on Gaza and the right wingers online were like hell no. And then he went back on that within 24 hours. But we do have a giant conflict between Fox News and most of the online right wing because the online right wing is. anti-war, or at least they've said a billion times that they were anti-war. Fox News is pro-war. So what do they do when there's an actual policy on the line, war or not war? What's your sense

of it? My sense is that loyalty is the ultimate test and so far it hasn't fallen. And this sort of feels like a continuation to the conversation you and I had on my show, where with total peace and love and respect, I told you that I thought some of your expectations were a little naive. We've sort of now heard directly from Trump on like the cutting defense spending. He said, I'm just not going to do it. I'm not cutting defense spending period. On being the anti-war president, launching new initiatives against the Houthis in Yemen, look at what's happening in Russia, Ukraine.

It was going to be day one of the transition period, then day one of the presidency. Now it's maybe the first hundred days, maybe not. The Gaza stuff, as you're pointing out, at the end of the day, I'm not seeing any serious movement in that right wing echo machine that. that is questioning whether Trump was the right choice. They'll kind of dabble around the edges about, I wish that we were a little more disciplined or that a little more organized or that there wasn't as much kind of like throw stuff at the wall on tariffs and see what sticks.

But ultimately, loyalty is really the test and they're remaining loyal. Yeah, so far it's only been two months into this administration. It's been two months. Yeah, and I want to clarify one thing, David. I never expected them to turn around immediately and be like, oh yeah, I'm against Donald Trump within 40 days, right? Oh my God, I'm now a left. They weren't going to do that.

Of course not, right? And I was actually gratified to see the pushback on, on, you know, sending American soldiers to Gaza. That actually was real and it did happen. But I think the bigger questions lay ahead, right? So, and I have been so far definitely disappointed in some of the reaction, like kicking out Mahmoud Khalil. and, you know, and just doing whatever Israel wants, the madness.

But on Ukraine, like, there's things that are surprising and things that are not surprising. But on things like, so I'll ask you about this on the right wing, and then we'll finally turn to the left, is, you know, they had that thing where they were like, oh, freedom of speech, oh my God, cancel culture is the worst thing in the world, and we're all about freedom and free speech absolutist. And now Donald Trump says, oh, CBS, I didn't like what they said about me or how they added to the Kamala Harris interview. I want $10 billion. I didn't like what this guy said about me. I want money. I want to sue them. I want to arrest them, et cetera.

Elon Musk is the most now rivaling Donald Trump and how thin his skin is. He's talking about lawfare against anyone who criticized them, et cetera. And there I expected a little bit more pushback. And I haven't seen much. It seems like they're now flipping to free speech sucks and we should end it. That level of hypocrisy is just gigantic. Are you seeing the same thing I'm seeing on that? Seeing the same thing.

And you know, this is a hallmark if you studied the 20th century authoritarians. This is an absolute classic in terms of specifically the relationship with the media, but also doing a 180 on a principle you claim to hold deer and then your followers essentially do nothing to really criticize you. This is absolutely classic. And there's a chapter in the book about not getting sucked into these philosophical echo machine elements where I will sometimes have people call in and they'll go, David, let's talk about first principles. What is your framework on ethics and foreign policy and morality? And this is a classic move to kind of abstract philosophy away from making difficult policy decisions. And the reason it's not worth getting

sucked into those philosophical debates about their principles about free speech or government intervention is that as soon as they're inconvenient, they do a 180, as you're pointing out, you know, on intervention, government intervention in business. They're against it until they want to force Twitter to publish what they believe about COVID. Or they're doing an infomercial for Tesla on the front lawn of the White House. Or none of the principles are really sincerely held and it's why I think the left would do well not to even get sucked into the black hole yeah so I don't know what you mean exactly by getting sucked into the black hole but I don't want anybody to

be naive and think that anybody's gonna turn around overnight or that they're gonna dump Trump or Elon Musk and their love for them etc but I was hoping for a little bit just not like 10 15 20% push back on hey wait I thought we were free speech absolutist, now a billionaire is going to try to sue people out of existence because they hurt his feelings? And now all of a sudden, they're like, oh, well, look, there's defamation laws. There's all these laws against speech. Did you know all these laws against speech? Yeah, brother, we were telling you that for years, and you told us that was nonsense and tyranny and oppression. Anyway, so that that hypocrisy is pretty strong right now

as things stand. So now let's turn the left. Okay, I mean, there's certainly an echo machine, on the left, and there's a couple of different echo machines, if you ask me. But you've got the classic one on MSNBC, Joe Biden's Young and Dynamic, every Democratic leader is God's gift to humanity, they're all geniuses, the corporate Democrats should always win, the progressives should, will never win. I mean, lie after lie after lie, and they get people to believe it, so how is that any better? Yeah, well, so the critical difference is, as I said, and I think it'll become really clear as we talk about this. The echo machine has been awesome for the right. It's been a disaster

for the left. And you're pointing out some of those ways. The sort of silver bullet of democracy is on the ballot as the primary message didn't work. The moving into sort of like after the first two weeks of Kamala Harris's campaign, it became significantly more technocratic and repetitive and discussions about if you start a business, you'll get, was it a tax credit or a deduction, was it refundable or not for the business expenses to open? that business, all of that stuff, which the left echo machine repeated was extraordinarily destructive for the left and for Democrats. The overhype of Biden in the elite media was definitely a problem. The other aspect to this that I think should be mentioned of again,

how this has completely failed the left. And to a certain degree, it's like they've built something very effective on the right, which maybe we'll talk about. I talk about in the book is when it comes to an issue like, for example, crime, and I know you guys have talked about this on on TYT quite a bit, even if it is true that the 30 year trend line is violent crime down, homicide down, property crime down, even if that's true, even if it's true that Oklahoma City's crime rate is higher than New York City's crime rate, you can't be seen as ignoring the sincere concerns of folks like your co-host Anna, for example. And as I as I hit my mic here, as I'm getting very agitated on this topic, you can't be seen as brushing that off no matter what the facts are. And that really hurt Kamala Harris in the last six weeks of the campaign. So first of all, it is true that crime is down over the last 30 years. All those things are true that you're stating.

But it's also true that crime rose in the major cities between 2019 and 2023. And so now we're splitting into two different echo chambers, though. MSNBC tells you that corporate Democrats are the greatest thing that's ever happened. And they're all wonderful, et cetera. Just I think it's a lie factory, if you ask me. I'm curious, again, I want to go back to that with you. a second. But then you've got the far left echo chamber online who says no crime. It doesn't exist. It's a right wing narrative. I deny all the stats between 2019 and 2023. And I believe

that Democrats don't care about crime. That hurt us a lot. And it wasn't just that, hey, you're not acknowledging what people are thinking and perceiving. You're also not acknowledging reality. Crime did go up in those four years. And people in major cities like Portland and Oakland, very, very democratic cities, didn't imagine it. They didn't get tricked by Fox News into thinking crime went up. Crime actually went up. So isn't it a problem that a huge portion of our side lives in denial of reality? It's absolutely a problem. And in the book, I talk about how we've really kind of lost a shared basis in fact from which we can then figure out what policy should be. You know, the classic example is climate change, which is just because you

acknowledge that it's happening and humans are playing a role doesn't necessarily prescribe what the policies should be. The policies then are a debate, but we've got to agree on what the facts are to start figuring that out. And similarly, you know, when I would put out a 10-point plan on what I think should happen with the police, defund the police wasn't on it, it was different types of reform. In some places, you might need more funding. Maybe some places are overfunded, but that's not really a solution. I would get a lot of heat from it from the folks that you're describing right now who kind of just didn't want to acknowledge reality. So I think that is a massive, massive problem. And again, this goes to what I think is fundamentally up until they

win, right? This is during campaigns. The rights echo machine is inclusive in a way that the lefts is exclusionary and it's just killing the left in elections. Well, I mean, look, you know, you disagree with defund the police by a shade as you just described, right? And they folks try to exclude you. We acknowledge the crime stats, people try to exclude us. So if you're just excluding even the most progressive shows in the country, who are you including? How microscopic is this tent? Or do you want this tent to be?

And then you wonder why we lost a popular vote. But even so, David, I would say that that's a smaller problem than the MSNBC crew that keeps telling us, don't change any of the policies, the status quo is awesome, corporate rule is awesome, and Joe Biden is young. So that was just, that was, I mean, you want to talk about denying reality. It was borderline insane. Yeah, I think one of the things that is pointing, I'm curious, your thought, in a better direction is when you look at the last week of events and you hear the message from

Bernie and from AOC and from Greg Kassar and John Ossif in Georgia, etc. I'm sort of cautiously optimistic that there is a realization that for better or worse, kind of like the Pelosi Schumer status quo doctrine has now been clearly identified as a political loser at this point in time. I don't know what you think. Maybe I'm the one who. who's being naive now, but I'm sort of cautiously optimistic that there is a sea change there. And, you know, one of the things that I think we can point to is the MSNBC and CNN post-election ratings never recovered. We had three days during which people were really despondent and upset and sort of bailed out. I'm talking about like November 6 to 9. And since then, we had the best

January ever, the best February ever, and we're on track for the best March ever. The people, as they come back seem to be coming back for something different. It doesn't win you a single election. We have to see what happens. But I am feeling something a little different here. No, definitely. But that, but we haven't, let's put it this way. Not we haven't been tested. Mainstream media hasn't been tested yet. So what I mean by that is, oh, no, people, I mean, first of all, the Democratic voters love what Bernie and AOC are saying. I just did a segment right before this one about how their tours are doing fantastic. We've got young tourist members writing in 35,000 people in Denver, the most Bernie's ever gotten, etc. So the voters

absolutely love it. That's completely clear. And then the segment I did was about how Morning Joe is pretending to like it. And I've now read several New York Times columns pretending to like it. But I don't believe them. So that, I mean, like, I think that when the next Bernie comes in the primary, the New York Times and MSNBC are going to be our number one opponents. that they're going, I am suspicious of what you're saying, you know, at the same time, I don't believe that Trump is against abortion, but it doesn't matter because he is governing and saying everything as if he is. And in the same way, you're probably right that if MSNBC in the New York Times and whoever ultimately come around, it won't be sincere. But maybe it doesn't matter, right?

And I think this is the kind of critical thing here, which is if all Ultimately, the goal is to get power. If there is some way to get buy in from whoever, even if deep down, they don't really agree. I think that this is the way that the echo machine needs to be leveraged by the left to actually be something that helps us win and get power rather than lose again. So you're probably right that they're only going to ever pretend to like it, but that may actually be good enough. I don't know. Yeah, I don't think so at all because for me, the ultimate goal is not to get power. I don't really care about whether Buttigieg and Newsom have power, I couldn't care less.

The ultimate goal- Well, no, I'm saying the movement you're saying you support for that to get power so that the right policies can become a reality. No, okay, that's fair, and I understand what you're saying, David. But the ultimate goal is to actually get the bills passed and it affects people's lives. If we don't get the bills passed, then a Democrat winning was useless or maybe even counterproductive because one more time they let people down. one more time. Oh, we're going to do it. We're going to do it. No, we're not. Ha, ha, ha, ha. That'll show you forever believing a Democrat or voting for a Democrat. We're never, ever, ever, ever going to do anything because at the end of the day, we're just corporate goons. So that's why, like David, I guess last question. We'll see if it really is.

If Buttigieg comes in with Bernie's policies, I wouldn't believe him for a second. I would, and I see Gavin now pretending to be a populist. I don't believe him. I will never support those guys. I think they're total liars. And they're like, oh, this is a new gimmick. I like this gimmick. So, okay, now you know how I feel. What do you think?

If Buttigieg says Bernie's policies, do you believe him? I, you know, I don't know. I would have some skepticism the way you have. I think here's the print, the heuristic that I'm applying on this. And I do talk about this in the book, which is it would be a continued failure for the Democratic Party to have the idea of the idea of the what the right candidate should do say, sound like, look like, etc. To take someone that isn't that and to try to make them into this thing, it comes off as disingenuous. It happened with Kamala Harris.

The first two weeks seemed like the real Kamala. And then I don't know who got in. You probably know better than I do. And all of a sudden it was a completely different thing. They wanted to turn her into something different. What I would like to see is find the candidate that is just genuinely what the voters actually want and what would be good for the country. And don't do the thing where you say, now let's turn them into whatever. And if you can say a lot of really, you know, accurately negative things about Donald Trump, when he hung out on the Nelk boys and Rogan and Lex Friedman and PBD and all of this stuff, it's just the real Trump hanging out.

It's a lie a minute for sure. But there's a genuineness that we just are not finding yet on the left. And I don't want to see that. So I share your skepticism. Yeah. And so the difference is that you can be authentic and be a liar at the same time. That's Donald Trump's authentic self is pathological liar. But you get a sense of authenticity.

And so you can see it when like the Schumers of the world do the, hey, they're billionaire buddy videos. And they all do the same video. It's totally inauthentic versus Bernie and AOC on the, you know, on the trail there and saying it like they actually believe it. And it makes a big difference whether that happens or not. So David, we're going to keep track on this. We should talk more often. We need to, and actually, of course, one last question, as I always do. Look, can we agree on this, at least, to be more inclusive, as you're saying in the book

and in your show, that if we disagree on certain issues, so what, right? We disagree on whether trans people should be forced into professional women's leagues or we disagree on Israel or we disagree on anything else. Can we all at least agree to agree on the core economic issues that unite all Democrats and that we not like bury each other and hate each other over the things we disagree on while we continue to disagree. There's nothing wrong with that. We should keep that going, right?

I completely agree. Yeah, but focus on the things we agree on that the whole country agrees. on. Without a doubt, and again, I think that the politics of exclusion ultimately lose, like you look at history and you look at all of the 20th century examples that I include in my book. The accelerationist stuff loses, which is also to what you're pointing out, we'll disagree, but we can agree enough to win and then do policy that makes sense for the greatest number of people and keep disagreeing on some of the stuff. And there's just not evidence that it has worked and I don't think all of a sudden the exclusionary stuff will start working.

All right. Everybody check out David Packman's show and of course the echo machine, how right wing extremism created a post-truth America. David, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. No problem. All right guys, we're going to take a quick break. When we come back, a life story and a serious story, Donald Trump being an utter goofball in a kind of a hilarious way and then unfortunately kind of an unofficial coup in Turkey and and we might lose one of the more important democracies in the world. We'll be right back. our dog, thank you for gifting five subs saying, Jack, the main reason I'm a progressive now.

Wow, thank you. That's wonderful of you to say and catch a butterfly saying, happy birthday, Jake. I appreciate it, guys. You guys are wonderful for doing that. Am I going to disagree with you if you join to celebrate my birthday, which was on the 21st? No, I'm not going to disagree with you. T.wit.com where annual membership gets you a couple of months off or hit the join button below. All right, let's do the next story. Judge, and I say this with a unblemished record of heterosexuality, he looks good, and he looks hard. Does he? Okay, that's what Trump is wondering, because there's a portrait of him in Colorado that he does not like.

He doesn't think it looks hard. So let me give you Trump's statement, and then I will show you that portrait, and then we'll give you a couple more pictures of Donald Trump, and then we'll have your vote on him. That'll be super fun. So Trump wrote over the weekend on true social. Nobody likes a bad picture of painting or painting of themselves. But the one in Colorado in the state capital put up by the governor along with all the other presidents was purposefully distorted to a level that even I perhaps have never seen before. The artist also did President Obama and he looks wonderful. But the one on me is truly the worst. She must have lost her talent. is she got older.

Again, we'll show you the two pictures, portraits next to one another in a second, but he continues his mad diatriop, because this is the important stuff in the world, right? I'm glad the president of the United States of America and the Commander-in-Chief is focused on this. In any event, I would much prefer not having a picture

than having this one, but many people from Colorado have called and written to complain, have they? Have they? In fact, they're actually angry about it, are they? I'm speaking on their behalf of the radical to the radical left governor, Jared Polis, who's extremely weak on crime. In particular respect to Trenda, which practically took over Aurora, don't worry, we saved it to take it down.

Jared should be ashamed of himself. So I'll get back to Jared Polis in a second. But first, I know you're wondering about the picture. We kind of showed it there on the Jesse Waters clip. But here, let's take a look at the portrait. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. I didn't know it was that bad.

Holy cow, look at that thing. What is he talking about? That's Donald Trump. That's like the most normal portrait I've ever seen of any human being. What in the world is he referring to? Okay, so let's look at Obama and his and let's see if Obama looks gorgeous and Trump is purposely distorted. You know, people complain, we needlessly research this story. Apparently people complain that Obama's portrait wasn't that good. Maybe they got an issue with this artist, but I think that Obama won the Trump look like Obama and Trump. Who cares? Who cares? That's unbelievable. So, but apparently Trump does. Trump is obsessed by it. So he then put up two pictures of himself

that I presumably is, okay, I wanted to look like this. So this is happy smiley Trump from the first term. And yeah, we do have a poll on it. That's why you should watch the show live. It's super fun. Although we have this up on YouTube community as well, I believe. So Trump, Happy smiley one, and then he put up a second one, blue steel. Well, at least we're calling it blue steel. Oh, there you got. I actually think that one looks way worse than the official portrait in Colorado. So, but hey, I'm going to leave it up to you guys.

You guys vote in the live chat as we're doing it. Which photo does Trump look dumber in? The Colorado portrait, happy first term Trump or blue steel second term Trump. Pick him right there. But okay, so now you want to know the reality. Yeah, the portrait was unveiled in 2019, but it was commissioned in 2018 before Polis even took office. So guess who commissioned it?

Colorado Republicans. And they raised over $10,000 to get that portrait. So as usual, he did none of the homework. He attacked his own Republicans without realizing it. Trenda Aaragua did take over some apartment complexes. Did they took over the entire town of Aurora? No, they didn't. And so that is clear.

But look guys, the reason I do the story is because, not because oh my God, it's the most important story and Trump's the worst for doing this or anything like that. No, it's because he's so vain. He's such a gigantic narcissist. He's so obsessed with himself. Brother, you're the president of the United States. States do some president thing and look to be fair he came in like a world wind and he did a lot

of things on the great majority which i don't agree with but he just can't stop obsessing about himself and going on these diatribs about how he looks no matter how much power he gets and adulation he gets it's never enough because that well of insecurity is endless and one last thing about it He then this again, today, going after George Clooney. But who cares about George Clooney, who cares what he said in a 60 minutes interview? But no, he can't let it go. So what did Clooney say? Now, by the way, that's the other thing.

He not only looks ridiculous when he does this, but he also then needlessly highlights other people like George Clooney. So now I find out what Clooney said about him because he attacked him. So here's what Clooney said. When the other three estates fall, when the judiciary and the executive and the legislative branches fail us, the fourth estate has to succeed. ABC has just set a lawsuit with the Trump administration and CBS news is in the process. We're seeing this idea of using government to scare or fine or use corporations to make journalists smaller. Totally agree with this. It's a great point he made on 60 minutes.

And then he says, governments don't like the freedom of the press. They never have. And that goes for whether you're a conservative or liberal or whatever side you're on. So that's a really important topic. And we're going to talk about it later in the program because Elon Musk is now trying to sue people that criticize him and Donald Trump is going after all the media companies. What happened to free speech absolutists? But that's a really important topic we'll handle later in the show.

Of course, watch the show every day Monday through Friday, 6 to 8 o'clock Eastern on YouTube. But so how did Donald Trump bitch about this? Well, here's what he said. Why would the now highly discredited 60 minutes be doing a total puff piece on George Clooney? A second-rate movie star and failed political pundit. hard for Sleepy Joe's election, and then right after the debate, dumped him like a dog. Later, I assume under orders from the Obama camp, pushed all out for Kamala. I don't know, why is Kamala in quotes?

That is actually her name. Only soon to realize that it was not going to work out too well, to, of course, misspelled, 60 minutes, even fraudulently inserted fake answers into a disastrous interview. No, they didn't. Air just before election day in one of the most embarrassing and dishonest events in broadcast history. And now George Clooney again, his press agent should be making a fortune. My God, like, if I was elected president, would I spend all day obsessing about what Kid Rock thinks of me or whether a portrait in Hawaii or Rhode Island of me is good enough? Do important things.

On the other hand, it's Donald Trump that thinks he's been doing are not great, so maybe not. Maybe just focus on, just keep looking in the mirror 24-7, okay? Is it good enough? Is it good enough? I'm good enough, aren't I? Hey, Stuart Smalley, Commander-in-chief, move on, dumped in security and try to get some work done or don't. Okay, now let's go to a serious story. Very serious story. Protests in Turkey reaching a boiling point. Street demonstrators clashing violently with police after the main political rival of the nation's president, Tayyap Erdogan, was detained. Turkish police blasting crowd with water cannons in Izmir and using tear gas to break up protests in the capital city of Ankara.

Despite a ban on demonstrations, thousands also flooding the streets in Istanbul, over what they call the undemocratic detention of Istanbul's mayor. Ekram Imamolulu. All right, this is a huge story. Elon Musk plays into it in a little bit as well. I'm a little worried that this is maybe foreshattering for our future. I hope not here in the U.S. But Erdogan, it looks like, is in the middle of trying to end democracy in Turkey.

I love to see the Turkish people fighting back peacefully. and but aggressively and saying, no, you're not going to extinguish our voice. We're Turks and we're not going to meekly go into that good night. So now let's go to political to explain the situation. We'll jump around on some major news sources here to explain what happened, including how Elon played into this. Turkey took a sharp turn toward a full autocracy on Sunday when President Recep Taipo Erdogan's main political rival, Istanbul mayor, Ekram Imamolu, was changed. and made a major crackdown on the opposition.

And so I'm going to explain all of it to you guys, but that's obviously the beginning of it. A court on Sunday, formerly arrested Imam ala corruption charges pending trial and a step to the opposition argues a politically motivated coup. It was also formally removed from office as mayor of Turkey's biggest city. So look, let me set the framing here. Imam ala had won three tough elections in Istanbul, the biggest city in Turkey. Turkey and his stars rising significantly. He's in the opposition party and he was about to get nominated for the presidential run from that party.

And just a couple of days before that, Erdogan all of a sudden finds corruption charges. In fact, a lot of them as we'll get to, just totally out of the thin blue hair against his main opponent who's massively rising in the polls and will likely knock out Erdogan's party. So to say the timing was questionable is a massive understatement. This seems to be Erdogan going, no, I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving under any circumstances. And we're not going to have a fair election. And this is exactly how you snuff out of democracy.

And remember, Turkey's the second largest army in NATO. It's supposed to be, and often is, bullwork against Russia and against some of our, against Iran, against some of our top adversaries in the world and is usually in the front line of fighting back. So the fact that it's a democracy is really important, but Erdogan has been trying to defeat that secular democracy from the moment he walked in. He's opposed to Austria, the founder of Turkey, which is unprecedented. So he's trying to take Turkey in a Muslim fundamentalist direction. But I have news for him. Saudi Arabia already exists.

We don't need a second Saudi Arabia. We need a super strong democracy that's an ally for the U.S. And for the whole world in that region. So more from Politico. Erdoin's backlash against the opposition comes after CHPs, that's the main opposition parties, unexpectedly convincing victories in cities nationwide in municipal elections in 2024, even in districts that had long been strongholds for the ruling AK party, that's Erdogan's party. On Wednesday, two separate investigations were launched against them and more than 100 others,

including politicians, businessmen, and journalists. The investigations came a day after university authorities canceled, Imam Mullah's diploma and necessary requisite for running in the presidential election. Let me pause here one more time. So, guys, this is crossing the Rubicon. When he's, Erdogan has already taken so many steps towards autocracy and a dictatorship, he's, you know, eliminated a lot of the medias you're going to see in a second that were opposed to him. he's fired, arrested, and driven out of the country, many of the prosecutors and judges

that were against them. And so, but we still had some semblance of democracy, as the news outlets are going to explain here in a second. But when you say that the main opposition leader cannot run against you or cannot run against your party, you're basically saying democracy's over. I'm your dictator now. And again, we'll see how the Turkish people react to that. already beginning to see it in five days of massive protests.

So now at CNBC, they say, what is becoming increased, this is Wolfgangono Piccoli, co-president of Teneo consultancy and expert on this, saying what is becoming increasingly clear is Erdogan's willingness to steer Turkey toward full autocracy, moving away from the competitive authoritarian model that has characterized the country's governance over the past decade. I want to focus on that because now you're seeing it in Hungary. Hungary is in the competitive authoritarian model. That's where Putin and Russia began in the competitive authoritarian model. I'm afraid that the U.S. is inching towards the competitive authoritarian model, which is,

it's largely authoritarian, but we do kind of have elections, right, to full autocracy, full dictatorship. So this is a giant warning to many countries across the world. You saw Putin do it, now you're seeing Erdogan do it. Okay, so what is Erdogan calling his opponents? You're not going to be at all surprises. A movie you've seen here in America, in Israel, and many other places. He says they are doing, quote, street terror. Here we go.

And then earlier, Interior Ministry Ali Ilykaya accused some protesters of, quote, terrorizing the streets and threatening national security. So how many have they people have they arrested so far? 1,133 people have been detained during the five days of protests. And then Erdogan says the main opposition is responsible for our injured police officers, the broken windows of our shopkeepers and the damaged public property. They will be held accountable for all this politically in parliament and legally by the judiciary. So again, guys, you see, you know, shades of what's happening here.

Oh, window was broken. Terrorists. Some inanimate object was damaged after I declared myself, in essence, a dictator by doing an informal coup against my main political opponent. How dare you protest? And then some things were broken along the way. That's it. You're all terrorists. That's it. I'm going to arrest you guys.

And not because I'm a dictator, but because, hey, what do we have? We had broken windows and shopkeepers property was damaged. That's their excuse, that's their excuse. The prosecutor's office, as Politico explains, also voiced, quote, strong suspicion that Imam al-a had been involved in, quote, aiding an armed terrorist organization. Is that true? They've shown absolutely no evidence of that. And it is what everyone is called when you oppose an authoritarian government.

The word terrorism is super destructive, it's nonsense, is created by America and Israel, ironically, to blame all Muslims and never any Western countries, never any governments, but anyone opposed to a government is usually called a terrorist. So now Erdogan has adopted that for his Muslim fundamentalism, said anyone opposed to Muslim fundamentalism is a terrorist, oh you're for secular democracy, terrorist, oh my God, you broke a window just because I arrested my political opponent. So don't believe the hype when they use the words like terrorists, it's almost never true. And even if it is true, in some cases, definitely not in this case, but in cases where

people have actually harmed or killed civilians, they never say it about a government, whether it's a Turkish government, Israeli government, or any other government, when they kill innocent civilians. When they lock up innocent civilians, they never call themselves terrorists. Let's have the same standard apply to governments as they do to individuals. So now let's turn to the point about social media. Because in order for dictators to really cement their rule, they have to make sure that voice of dissent are shut out. So Politico explains a number of opposition social media accounts were blocked and the bandwidth of social media platforms was restricted. And this is what happens every time they do a crackdown.

During the five days of demonstrations, pro-government media shied away from reporting on the street protests. So Adena has been intimidating the larger media organizations and TV stations in Turkey for as long as he's been in power. And he's been in power for about 20 years. So for first as prime minister, then his president, these calls of him on tape bullying them and saying that you're going to lose their lives. They're going to lose all their money if they don't report things. the way that he wants them reported. And that's why all of a sudden they're like, what street protests? This massive street protests all over Turkey, including in Erdogan's hometown,

including in areas that were his strongholds and media that is under the control of everyone's like, I don't see it, I'm not going to report on it. And so, where have I seen people cracking down on media that disagrees with them? maybe threatening to sue media figures that disagree with them, et cetera. Oh, yeah, Donald Trump and Elon Musk. Speaking of which we're going to get there in a sec. Oh, there he is. Elon Musk's social media platform X has suspended several accounts belonging to opposition figures in Turkey

amid widespread civil unrest in the country. Huh, I thought the brother was a free speech absolutist. What happened? Remember Twitter files? Can you believe the government asked Twitter to censor some things that Twitter. Here, Turkey's like, hey, we're trying to be a dictatorship. Elon, can you block those accounts? He's like, absolutely, right away, sir.

Of course, sir. Oh, an authoritarian, yes, of course I'll block accounts for you. Turkey's interior minister, Ali Yarlikaya said on X that authorities have found 326 social media accounts that are quote unquote inciting hatred. Of course, that's what they say, inciting hatred against them for being dictators. A coordinated action between cyber and security authorities led to the, arrest of 54 suspects related to the social media accounts, said Yerliqaya. So when social media platforms like X help authoritarian leaders like Erdogan, that's Twitter files on steroids.

And it's not just shutting down there's free speech. 54 of those people have been arrested. it. Okay. Must, though, says he's got an excuse for it. And look, hear him out. Musk himself said that, quote, the choices have Twitter throttled in its entirety or limit access to some tweets. So I understand that logic. And I'll be fair. He's saying, look, they could shut down all of Twitter or all of X if they wanted to. Yes, I understand that. But at the same time, If they shut down the entire platform, they look way more authoritarian, way more dictatorial. Here you say, oh, shut down anyone's opposed to you.

Keep the rest of it up so it looks like people agree with you. And then secretly arrest the people who disagree with you. I don't know that that's the right calculus. I understand the calculus, but I don't agree with it. And then finally on this issue, exheated about 86% of government, requests to take down content in the second half of 2024 in Turkey. So there's X standing up to the US government. We won't let you do, but the Turkish government, 86% of the time.

Yeah, anything you want? Go ahead. And oh, you want their accounts and you want to arrest them? Okay, sure, go ahead. So now, meanwhile, last couple of things here, how did this work out for Turkey in the markets, disastrously. So things are only going to get worse, the people are only going to get angrier. Reuters reports, he also sought to reassure investors who last week sold off Turkish assets

following news of Imam alamo's detention, sending stocks, bonds, and the lira currency tumbling and prompting the central bank to intervene with foreign exchange sales and the other stabilizing measures. CNBC reports, central bank officials spent $12 billion in foreign reserves last week, the prop of the lira. The financial times reported as on March 21st, after the currency hit a record low of more than $40 to the dollar. He's absolutely tanking the economy, But he doesn't care because it's all about his own power. And again, Pekoli, the expert that we quoted earlier, said, once again, President Adewan's political agenda has inflicted serious damage on Turkey's economic outlook. But when you do that, brothers and sisters, it isn't just about the Turkish stock market or Turkish businesses.

That's about people being able to afford bread and basic goods. And when people cannot afford basic goods because inflation is absolutely through the roof, they're going to. going to get angrier and angrier and justifiably so. And what's interesting is that one of his top allies, Abdullah Gil, who was president before him, even he said what was done to President Tai Erdogan, and to me in the past, should not be done to Ekram imamoli either. We must not lose the rule of law and justice, otherwise Turkey will lose. And he's basically saying to Erdogan, hey, remember, we got arrested earlier too. And so don't do the same thing. And by the way, those are very different circumstances.

I don't know that should have happened either, by the way. But this is on the route to dictatorship. And even his top allies saying, what are you doing? Don't do this. This is going to end in disaster. And I'm afraid that it will. Last positive notice, CHP, the main opposition party, have about normally a million people who vote in their nomination process. And I don't want to probably, I apparently thought that, hey, if I arrest him and I accuse him of corruption and terrorism and all this nonsense, that less people will vote in those and he might not get nominated by the CHP, an unprecedented number of people showed up to vote for him anyway, or probably because of this, a couple of days after that.

So I remember he gets the rest of the couple of days before that vote. Erdogan's trying to block him from running. And Politico explains the CHP said 15 million people. It turned out to support Imamu in the ballot. The context there is normally again, about a million people vote in that party. Now all of a sudden, 15 million people are voting for that party. And this is Imamolu, his quote, he's got a lot of strong quotes, but I'll just read one. I stand tall, I will never bow down.

That's not Erdogan, that's Imamolu. So that's spoken like a true Turk. And I'm very curious to see what the Turkish people are going to do, whether they're going to tolerate this or not tolerate this. But we cannot lose that democracy. And you see how it happens. That is a blueprint. It's already happened in Russia. It's in the middle of happening in Turkey.

We cannot let that come to a conclusion in Turkey. And that's up for the Turkish people to decide, of course. And here at home in America, we cannot start taking steps in that direction. This is a giant warning sign to everyone across the world. We'll be right back.