The Zac Clark Show - A Doctor’s Life-Changing Journey From Addiction To Long-Term Recovery with Dr. Michael McCormick

Episode Date: April 23, 2024

Dr. Michael McCormick was the chief of surgery of an Alabama hospital. He was also in the grips of an addiction to painkillers that nearly cost him his medical career, his family and his life. Doc McCormick is living proof that substance use disorder spares no one — even a prominent doctor well aware of the devastation of addiction. In this conversation, Doc bravely shares his truth as he continues his life’s commitment to helping people struggling with substance use disorder. We delve into Doc’s journey from addiction to long-term recovery, his newfound purpose in the medical field, why opioids and opiates are so devastatingly addictive, and the controversial, yet rapidly evolving impact of Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT) in combatting substance use disorder. Hope you find this conversation as inspiring and insightful as I did.

All right. So today's episode is absolutely wild. I have a good friend of mine, Dr. Michael McCormick, joining us, who's the former chief of surgery at the Helen Keller Hospital in Alabama. But more importantly, he is a doctor working in the field of addiction recovery. He has a wild story. We're going to get into all of that. And then we're going to nerd out a little bit on the medications that we're using to treat opioid use disorder. you're going to want to tune in it's a good one all right welcome welcome welcome to the zach clark show uh today our guests it's our first guess ever and you only get one first guess so don't fuck it up right my no problem it's a lot of pressure but that's all right i'm thrilled that you're here dr michael mccormick is the chief medical officer at release recovery so we know each other well because we work together sure on daily basis but But today, the goal is to dig into a little bit of your story, dig into a little bit of your career and how you got to where you are.

Sure. And I'm going to let you do a lot of the talking. The goal of this podcast and this conversation is to help one person. That's right. You know, and you know that just like I do. Agreed. Yeah, I think that's a great goal to have. So I want to work a little backwards here.

This story that I know about. you is wild so we're going to fast forward to the end you're in recovery right and so anyone of us who's in recovery has a has a story and we share our stories openly in hopes of helping the next person so fast forward you're in Alabama yep you're a general surgeon at a hospital yep and your addiction is running wild and you're writing scripts to your wife to feed your I need the story I need it yeah yeah Yeah, yeah. No, that's it. So the addiction, the disease, it had progressed to that point, right? And I would go through periods, you know, I'm a true alcoholic at heart. I mean, that's the main thing. But through the years, the opiates came into play, especially towards the end, because I felt like people wouldn't know, you know, you wouldn't smell like booze or whatnot. But it turns out, you know, my wife always knew just by looking at my eyes. But the, yeah, I mean, I had to get the opiates somehow. And so I wasn't in the biggest town, which is, you know,

interesting. So what I mean by that is it wasn't like I'd go buy stuff on the street. And, you know, I had the ability to write prescriptions for opiates because I'm a doc. And, you know, I wasn't in my right mind. And really at that time, you know, the thought I had, Zach, was like I was writing Lorset, which is hydrocodone, you know, Lortat. Vicodin Brett Farv's thing for pretty much everybody because I'm a general surgeon so I'm taking your gallbladder out and I'm causing pain so I'm giving you a script and a couple more scripts you know or whatever it may be and so in my mind I thought oh this is okay I can just start and so I couldn't write for myself so I would write for my wife she didn't know I mean she figured it out as we went along and then I would take it to you know one of these local pharmacies usually a mom and pop and did they know you I mean like you're going Yeah, I mean, you know, now looking back, how could they not have? You know, like there's six or seven general surgeons in this whole 50,000 person town. Like, how did they not?

Yeah, I wasn't in my right mind. But I guess, you know, people kind of, you know, not blaming them, but they kind of looked the other way and they'd fill the scripts and I'd get them. I did some, yeah, I mean, you see, you bring it out of them. I start thinking about things. I would do other things too. Like I'd write like antibiotics or something else. like she had like an infection or something to cover it up yeah to cover it up yeah but to act like right it was normal yeah it wasn't i was laughed as alcohols right like when i i know when i was

drinking i would change liquor stores because god forbid the person behind the counter knew that i was an alcoholic no way they're ditching their don't out booze all day every day that's it that's hilarious man so you're so you're at this point your life you're doing so i mean is it safe to say like you were under the influence doing somebody's surgeries or yeah so did Great question. And here's what it is. And as you know, what I did before I joined you and, you know, and joined release was I took care of, you know, healthcare professionals for nine, ten years, whatever it was. And so we're high achievers. So we draw a line in the sand. Like, I'm not going to use. I'm not going to drink. I'm not going to be under the influence at work. And when it goes over that line, that's when the disease has really progressed. So I remember sitting in treatment early on and being. in like, you know, hey, at least I didn't get, you know, effed up at work or when I was operating on people. But then the reality set in that if I'm drinking or using until 12, 12, 30, 1 o'clock at night

and going to the OR at 7 a.m. I am. Yeah, it is influencing me. Yeah, it's funny. I think for high achievers, we get, we get to a point where, like, as long as we do what we're supposed to do, you know, at the end of the day. Yeah. We deserve that reward. And he's, even as I've gotten into a record. Harvey, like, I've had that relationship with nicotine at times, like, where I'm, like, running a bunch or whatever it is. Yeah.

To the end of the day. And I, like, I earn that zen or I earned that, like, little, like, that little spike of dopamine because, like, I did what I was supposed to do, you know? I think it's normal. Like, to say, like, you know, it's not the work hard, play hard. It's more of the, I deserve it. You hit around the head. And that was my, my thought process.

You know, hey, look, I got a, you know, a bunch of kids doing well. I got a good wife. You know, houses. I'm doing great. I'm chief of surgery. Like, I deserve it. that's exactly what I thought how long are you sober now

since 2010 so we're coming up on 15 yeah June 6th don't let me catch you bro June 6th I'm right behind you you're not catching me I better not

I feel like I'm walking right alongside you so no we're good alright so let's just get back to and at this time when you're writing how many kids do you have five kids we had all of them yeah when I got sober all my

we had all my all five kids okay so how does it come crashing down you're writing these scripts for your wife she has no idea you're having a surprise party for one and where do we yeah so we so we're we're it just um it was it was definitely a processor there was a progression to it so you know the drinking was was an issue you know and that's you know my behaviors when i would drink or you know just not every time you know like we do but it would just be a big big problem and so for many years there was lots

of you know my family and my wife wanted me just to be sober but i wasn't ready And so towards the end, about a year before I got sober, a year and a half, I went to a guy at my hospital, another doc who was sober, and said, look, I'm having trouble. And I just talked about the alcohol. And he got me plugged into an AA meeting locally. And I started going to that. And I was sober for a period of time.

But I just was dry. You know, it was just an accident. And I didn't dive into the program. And so that was probably from, that was Halloween of, 2009 through the spring April this time of the year of 2010 and um yeah that story is when I drove home I think I I've told you you know before I came home on Halloween and I had a wine wine cell or wine closet whatever you call it and my wife had broken all the bottles in our backyard we had this brick square thing where there was this huge tree and

and my wife is a very nonviolent person totally normal and I was like oh man I'm in trouble and that was Halloween of nine and that's and it was because she'd found a ton of those prescription pill bottles with her name on it and she was like I'm not going to jail for this I'm calling the state on you and you know like we do we're good we talk our way out of it and I did and at that time that's when I went to this guy in my hospital started going to AA but it really wasn't diving in and was sober for a period of time you know and kind of got her back in my good graces and then in the spring um you know we were down at the beach down in 30A and Destin, San Destin, Florida in that area. And I just played golf and something snapped

one morning. I couldn't get out of bed. And one of my kids, my Johnny, my middle guy, he was like, we got to go to the beach. And I said to my wife, I think I pulled something in my ribs, blah, blah, blah. And she said, just go get the coffees, come back, take some ibuprofen, and then we'll get the day going. And as I drove to get the coffees, it was a drive I made for the previous eight years. And I'd get scripts at this little pharmacy there. And something just went off on me. I called the pharmacy, called in a script for my wife, and picked it up, picked up the coffees, and I was back running again. So that was April through June, and it was bad.

You know, like we talk about all the time, you know, it goes right back to where it was, and it did, right back to it. And the opiates were the main thing. The alcohol came in a little bit, but it was hard because everybody was watching me. You know, it was supposed to be sober. Yeah, once the cat's out of the bag, it's hard to hide that shit. Yeah. And then it was just kind of a culmination. of things in my hospital the guy had gone to the CEO my what it was just kind of like

everything crashed in at once and they were like listen you know kind of you're right the cat was out of the bag and it was like look he needs help and uh so they said you got to go get an evaluation you know this five-day evaluation at a place and they gave me a couple places to go and i chose a place in warrior alabama which was uh Bradford saved my life um just like a little bit outside of birmingham And so I went there, though, thinking, this is how insane I was, got dropped off on a Sunday, thought I'd be out on Thursday. That's when the evaluation ended. And so I didn't cancel any of my OR cases for Friday. I had like 10 cases.

And, you know, I just lied the first 72 hours there, 96 hours, whatever. What's the emotion right now? Is it gratitude? Yeah, I think it is. Yeah. No, no, no. Oh, definitely not shame. Yeah, yeah, definitely not.

I think definitely gratitude. You're proud of this stuff. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's a big deal. You know that. I mean, it's pretty huge. No, it's the bad. I mean, like, that's, that's a confusing part of, I think, this work that we do together

and just trying to help the next person get sober is that we can shout it from the rooftops, how grateful we are for our recoveries. But to actually have someone sit across from us and believe that is a whole other story. You know, the fact that we're even just here having this conversation is a miracle. I know. It is. you're 100% right you know it's definitely gratitude and also it's you know you don't i mean look where i'm a little you know ways out from this now like you but i you know i you know when you go

back and you think about it and stuff starts popping in your head you're like oh my god that's right this and then that and then you know is there a story where they dump out someone has all the scripts or they don't about him the table or what happened yeah so so yeah uh crazy so i'm i'm downstairs in this treatment facility which you know i aimed up as crazy as the world is, doing this with other doctors, Dennis, nurses for nine years when we have an out brief, it's called. So you go in and you sit at this long table and everyone that's on the team that's just evaluated you for the previous four or five days,

tells you what they think and what you need. So I'm like so nervous. So it's Thursday morning and I'm sitting there and my counselor came down, Maggie, love her and she said, look, we couldn't talk to your wife. and she's the last piece of this because I'd given them our house number not her cell phone number and I knew she'd be out with the kids

and we didn't have a machine and so she said we're just gonna have to call the state because there's just too much stuff going on here and I said alright here's her number and I gave her her cell phone number so then I go

so I'm sitting there and then I'm like oh my God they talk to her she's gonna tell them everything which is good which is what I wanted her to you know but I didn't but I did So when I go upstairs to sit at this long table, the one psychiatrist, Cornelius, Dr. Cornelius, I start just telling him everything, like everything. And he flips, he had this old computer paper, like this printout, and he like flips it like a double take.

And I could see it right now in my eyes. And it's like all these scripts that I had written. I was like, holy shit, this is crazy. And he's like, yeah, we knew either it was you or your wife certainly needed to be sitting here. And I was like, no, no, it's not my wife. It's me. And the, yeah, so crazy. And I and I and all those drugs. I mean that that's the story right there. That's it right there's like one is too many a thousand is never enough, right? I mean like it's true sit tolerance you know that move all opiates or you were yeah primarily opiates. Um, some of the amphetamines the riddleins or adderals, you know, because you got to balance yourself out. Of course. Come on now. You know. Yeah. So is that the moment of clarity? Like when those when those scripts hit the table because I saw the emotion come out.

out of you like is that a moment of clarity for you where you're like if I don't do something now like I'm going to take my whole family down yeah we talk about you know this that when we talk about the spiritual experience and the you know spiritual awakening you know the burning bush you know two moments for me

it wasn't necessarily great question it wasn't necessarily the scripts but it was that sitting downstairs waiting to go upstairs to that room and then that would happen in the room so 100% yeah that was it Yeah. I'm so grateful you're alive, man.

I know, it's crazy. But you're right, though. That was it. That was, and, you know, I looked in treatment all the time, probably like you for that burning bush. Meanwhile, it just happened. Right. You know, like I made the change internally.

You know that from our head to our heart. And it was it. And that's, I think, because I want to get into the work that we do a little bit and the work that you do specifically because I think you're, you're one of the best doctors I've ever met. And I say this because I respect you and you respect me. like I wouldn't say you're the smartest doctor like right I wouldn't put you like Harvard but like correct your bedside manner and the way that you connect with patients and the way that you're authentic and share with folks does more good than any Harvard degree

could ever do yeah thanks and so when when is that pivot from okay you're a general so you get you get sober things start to go okay you're living down in Alabama and when do you decide like I might actually want to be a doc like I might actually want to help some people yeah yeah no it was during you know while I was in treatment right so I did go to treatment for 90 days so you know long you know what happened that day was I basically admitted to everything and and they said no you know we figured all that and you know and so they said the recommendation like for most docs at that time was 90 days in treatment so I was there for 90 days so during that time as I started moving through this I got working with a great sponsor you know

and Mike's been a godsend to me. I still talked to him. Talk to them two weeks ago. But as I started to get into recovery, I realized, you know, probably I got there June 6th. This was probably mid-July. I was like, I want to do this work. And, you know, I don't know what it was. It just hit me.

And I told Mike Wilkerson, Dr. Wilkerson, who's a mentor, who was my doc there, I said, hey, I want to do this work. And he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, he's like, slow down. He's like, just go back up to the shoals where I lived. Muscle Shoals, Florence, that area. And he said, keep operating, keep working on your recovery, and then figure it out. And that's what I did. So I went back and I rebuilt everything up, operated for another two years. You know, we did everything we wanted to do.

And we actually was busier because, you know, I was better with my time. Yeah. You know. No, I mean, I get, I mean, I remember when I first moved to New York, I was probably four or five months sober. And, you know, I was talking to some folks. And I was like, I think I found my purpose. You know, I think it wouldn't help people. whatever that means, I want to jump into this.

And I had a lot of people telling me not to. And thank God I bet on myself, you know. And that's one of the biggest gifts. I think we get back in recovery is this ability to really, like, believe in ourselves and understand that we actually have talent and ability and greatness. Yeah. No, I think you're exactly right. I had people to say that to me.

They're like, wait, you went to, you trained for six years to be a surgeon. You're finally out. You're doing great. Like, what do you do? What? Like, I had a lot of people think that. it is what it is though i wasn't you know when we you know but but if we get places like you had success before you got sober in business and before you did you know this great thing and i did

as well i mean it's like if we didn't um you know i got to the top of the mountain i felt and it wasn't good though no i knew any i knew i needed something different so yeah so let's fast forward to working in the field as a doc you have a responsibility a big responsibility right to really hear your patients understand what they're going through and then proceed accordingly and one of the things that I've seen throughout my 12 years is the evolution of medicine, right? And the role that medicine or medication plays in the recovery process. You know, there's a school of thought that believes that, you know, the abstinence base, don't take meds, don't do nothing. If you do, you're not sober. There's, you know, kind of like a middle ground that says, okay, if your diagnosis is such,

you're allowed to, which I never understood what allowed to. you know and then there's a whole kind of like harm reduction crew and my goal or my dream would be for everyone to get along right because there's enough people to help but the thing that that breaks my heart is that I see men women husband wives brothers sisters daughters whoever it is come in to our program or just into quote unquote recovery and they start taking medication and I'm not a doctor, you are. I don't have an opinion on the medications that see people take, but when I hear Matt, and for those of you guys that don't know that who are listening,

it's medication assisted treatment. So it's basically utilizing some form of medication to assist your treatment. And for me, a lot of times that A gets confused with medication as treatment. You know, so I'm going to go on an opiate blocker. and that's all I'm going to do and I'm going to keep living this exact same way that I was living and I'm going to expect change

where I'm going to expect the people in my life to like give me a pat on the back and say congratulations because you're not doing drugs anymore yet the behavior is still there so I'm just curious in terms of what you're seeing the intersection of kind of like medication and behavior and therapy

and how these things all work together Like I know for me, I had to start running. I had to start eating clean. I had to start meditating. I had to start, you know, doing all these other things in addition to some of the other clinical and medical protocols. Yeah, I think that's really it. And, you know, you and I come from, you know, abstinent 12-step-based guys who have

had a lot of success, I think, in our recoveries. But we're, you know, what worked for you? and i maybe doesn't work for everyone so i you know i had the ability when i believe that by the way like i actually because i've seen other people get it in yeah i and i've seen that with you i've seen the change in you from when i was at karen yeah 100 percent which i love so when i when i started did my fellowship at karen i um you know joe garvilly who we both know karen is not a girl it's a treatment center out in pennsylvania it happens to be where i went to rehab and i'm now on the board and you spent eight years there until I swept in and stole you. You did. You did thankfully. And I love

Karen dear near dear my heart. And Zach's right. When you do the the teletext, it comes out as K-A-R-E-N. It has not got me in trouble with my wife, but it's been close before. You know that I'm just getting done it, Karen. Like that doesn't go over real well. So it's C-A-R-O-N. But, you know, Joe Garverly gave me the ability to say like, hey, opened up my mind. Right. We love open mind in this, right? How? We love the honesty of mind's willingness to say like, hey, MAT actually can work and there's a subset of patients that need it. But you're 100% right. It's medication assisted treatment. So it is. It's 12 step, you know, whatever you choose for your recovery, Dharma, celebrate, you know, smart, whatever that is. It's therapy, individual, it's group, it's support. It's, you know, eating right. You're 100% right. Meditation, prayer. You know, it's all of that. So if people are able to, do all of that and be on the medications that are doing well, then I think it's great for them because with time, they maybe will come off the medicines, you know? And, you know, I just had a patient on Monday, and you forget, you do the same thing. I think you do, like, you'll say

something to someone and they'll come back a year, two weeks, six years later, and say, hey, I remember when you said X or Y. And he said to me, he said, you know, I remember what you said to me. As long as I'm not snorting my Suboxone tablets, I'm okay. And, and, and, and, and, you know, it's like kind of it's the truth though like if you're taking the medication as prescribed we're okay and and don't worry about what anyone says in the rooms and i love the rooms more than anyone but like you just got to worry about yourself yeah so yeah i mean i the medication thing it blow it it actually blows my mind i mean when i was at the end of my run i was doing the take soboxone one day because i didn't have enough money for the heroin like i was doing the every other day thing

and yeah it was it was crazy but You know, I think about like the 55-year-old guy who's been doing heroin for 30 years, like 30 years of getting high, you know, and he needs something to help him stop. And the fact that we have medications that can do that, and it's a long game. I mean, it can be a long game. It could take two, three, four years for that guy to really come back. That's right. Thank God. Hopefully he's got another good 15, 20, 25 in him.

You know, he's really able to get well. to get healthy because the damage we do to our bodies in the middle of our our addictions or our substance use disorders is crazy. Can we nerd out for a second? Just because I think it's part of what we're trying to do here is provide a little bit of education. So when you think about opiates, right, the opiate or the opioid is what gets us high, right? Correct.

So can you just give the one-on-one on that? What an opiate? Yeah, so the opiate's going to attach to that receptor in the brain and it's going to fill that receptor is like a cup. And then the opiate comes in and attaches to that cup, it's going to give, you know, the main reason it's there is for pain relief. But it also has the euphoria, the best euphoria, yeah, and that's it. So that, that attaches to that receptor and it causes that feeling. Now, the problem is that the body's so smart, you know, the way we're made, that as that goes on, you develop tolerance.

So you need more of it. So more of these little receptors are set up. So you need higher and higher doses. of opiates just to get back to that euphoria or that wow feeling that you're always chasing you know it's like you're drinking beers right now you go from a six pack to a 12 pack to a taste natural light to the head you know it's like exactly and that's what you and that's why the amount of opiate use goes up and up and up all right so I'm a patient I walk into your office yeah and I have a I have an opiate addiction I'm addicted to opiates and again like what I want

to stress is that the type of opiate isn't important right Like, we get so hung up on a word like heroin, but oxy cotton, Roxaset, Perkissette, whatever you're taking, you can throw it all in the middle of the table and it's all the same shit at the end of the day, right? Correct. I mean, of course, there's different. And we haven't even gotten into the fentanyl thing, but that's, that's some scary shit. But so I walk into your office. What are my options? Like, can you take me through like the Vivitrol, the Suboxone and the, and the.

what am I forgetting here in methadone yeah yeah it's three buckets yeah can you take me through the three buckets like in like a layman's way just to for the listener to kind of hear the options and kind of what each does yeah yeah I think that's wow glad you're asking that so there's there's really three options or three buckets there's the fourth one which we really never recommend which is just pure abstinence and nothing the and then the two extremes so methadones on one extreme, which there's a subset of patients, and I know that now, that needs methadone. The problem with methadone is that it's a full agonus, which means it acts just like oxycodone, roxocet, heroin, whatever, meaning that it attaches to those receptors.

And so you're going to get that same euphoria, you know, that's the problem with methanol. But there's a group of patients that need it, right? And then on the other extreme is the naltrexone products, which is vivitrol, which is the injectable, naltrexone is the oral formulation of that. And so what that does is those little cups or those little receptors, the naltrexone will go in there and block it. So the naltrexone will attach to it. So if you take an opiate, you won't get the euphoria or the high. Like it'll come in there, but it'll just keep moving because those little receptors are all filled. So naltrexone, vivitral, you know, which we love the injectable because of the compliance issue. So if you come

to my office and I give you a shot every 28 days, I know you have it. Whereas if you're taking the Naltrucks on at night, you know, you may forget on a Wednesday night or Thursday. You may be doing well in your recovery. I mean, like for myself, I'm not forgetting. I'm purposely not taking it. And then that's when a lot of overdoses happen, right? Because you might. Because your tolerance is down. And you're right. And you, you and I, we, no, the overdose can happen. And then that's when the death happens. And that's scary. Well, that's, I mean, a lot of times we get the phone calls and his family screaming and crying. And he was sober for six

months. He was clean for nine months. He was doing so well. And it's that return to use that oftentimes causes the accidental overdose, right? And so and then Suboxone's in the middle. Suboxone. Suboxone's in the middle. So it's a partial agonist. So what that means is it partially blocks and partially attaches to that receptor. So what does it do? You said in your own words, which was so good, it makes people feel there's maybe like if you haven't been on any opiate or any suboxone and you take it, because the guys are pretty honest with me when I talk to them. You may get a little boost, like a little, but not much. People aren't getting high from Suboxone.

That's what people need to know. All it does is it fills that receptor and it makes people feel normal. It helps with the mood and it just normalizes them. It really does. And I stand by that. I really don't think the guys, women, whoever's taking are getting high from the Suboxone. I mean, I have experience with all. Yeah, there you go.

Yeah. So what do you? I mean, look, Suboxone for me, it was a necessary evil. especially like I'm grateful for it because when I was really out there like at the end of my run and I was ripping it running that detox like that abstinence that like cold turkey detox is something that I wouldn't wish on on my worst enemy right so if I had a little bit of Suboxone to kind of get me through that it probably saved me from doing some really scary shit behaviorally like I don't know if I was going to rob someone or what I was going to

do but just that ability to kind of settle in I'm getting a phone call here just that ability to settle in was was really like life saving for me and I know that I can just share my experience because that's something I'm comfortable doing so I got into rehab and at Karen and I was a pretty significant um opiate addict right so they they they gave me that opioid use disorder yep they gave me that diagnosis and so they put me on Suboxone or Subutex for like a 10 to 14 day taper. Yep. And I was grateful for that because I didn't feel so sick. And then I stayed kind of, I stayed in treatment for four months, right? So I gave myself a nice runway. And then as my time in treatment started to wind down, I got the shot. I got the Vivitrol because I was going to

enter into the real world. And I did this shot, the blocker, the 28th, four, I would say six months. And the crazy thing happened for me, which is I got sober. I got into recovery and I actually, dude, I forgot I was taking the Vivitrol. I just didn't make my appointment and I never looked back. Yeah. Like I just never, I never even thought about it again. And that was like, for me, it was the perfect way to do it. But that's just my experience because I'm sitting here 12 and a half years later.

Yeah. So I just want to be clear about like there's a lot of bullshit out there around medication. It serves a purpose. I do worry about some of the blowhards in, you know, some of these rooms, right? The 12-step rooms or wherever you might find that, like, think they're doctors. Yeah. And that's why I'm so grateful to have you on today because you actually are a doctor. And you've seen it all.

Right. And you've seen people use these medications in a very effective way, myself included, and find themselves years later in recovery, which is all we ask for. That's it. That's it. And you and I know also some people that are in early recovery on, you know, buprenorphine or Suboxone products that are like their recovery I'd put up against anyone's. You and I know that.

We know those people. And it's amazing. And so if it's going to help them keep them alive, keep them from use and keep them working through their recovery, that's fine. Look, if they're out there, you know, running and gun and doing crazy stuff with it, then it's a different story. You and I know that. Same with SSRIs or SNRIs or antidepressants. I've heard that in the rooms before

And I'm like, come on man Right How are we judging this poor guy that's on this? That's crazy And that's the thing I think we need to focus on It's like the compassion I mean we have a guy That works for us here, Greek

Who won't mind me sharing this But you treated him at Karen Yeah And now you're working with us But he came to us To release for You know our Our living

Our residential piece Sure And he was on Suboxone And He was very clear with me This is back in the day when I was still managing cases and like we were working together and he said Zach like I want I want to get off this but I don't want to rush it like I

because I don't want to get sick I don't want to make bad decisions right and he did it man like he took a year that's it and he just slowly tapered down tapered down tapered down tapered down and he did it in such a beautiful way where you know I share that story because there's no one way to do this thing right that's 100% right And, you know, what we used to tell people is if we're, if we're going to send you on Suboxone or we're going to start you on it, you're going to be on it a minimum of a year, right? So that's what we think, you know, a minimum of a year.

And there's no papers to prove that. But we know the recovery is good then. And then it's going to be a minimum of nine to 12 months to get off it. You're 100% right. Greek did it the right way. Yeah. And that's, that has the most success. So I love that.

Yeah. And the other interesting thing that I think just comes up a lot is, especially in dealing with families. And we know how important the families are in this process is, you know, just because they're on this medication to block a specific drug doesn't mean they can't go drink doesn't mean they can't go do cocaine doesn't mean they can still go get high and I know for me there was a there was a lot of time there where I wasn't doing opiates but I was you know drinking around the clock I was abusing my you know pharmaceuticals sure and I wasn't sober you know and so that's what I think ends up being confusing to folks because they'll be on

one of these medications but the behaviors won't change and that's where you know when i talk about that a the assisted my my passion and my purpose and and you as well is to get the men and women we work with involved in a lot of things so they start to find a reason to want to build a life worth living agreed totally agree that's what it's all about and that's the you know the secret sauce of this whole thing yeah but it works it works for people exercise yeah everything the crazy right the crazy you don't be hungry right angry lonely tired right we're avoiding all those things yeah so so we got a few minutes left i just want to kind of go back to something here um and i just like i'm sitting here like i'm blown away by the power of your story thanks like the

amount i got it chokes me up because like the amount of people that you've sat with and shared that with is just so powerful and I think we forget like I think we forget how because we're in this thing every day like I think we forget how powerful our experience is yeah you know and I just want to go back to because I felt it when we were talking about it the emotion around you have five kids you have a wife right we haven't even gotten into our shared love for the Philadelphia Elfie Eagles, go birds, go birds, which is wild. So like, yeah, I sit next to your family, like, section 112 row 25, like I'm still like, yeah, before I knew you, I knew half your, yeah, I know, your hooligan crew

that you were running around with. Love them all. Yeah, and one day someone's like, you know Dr. Mike at Karen? I'm like, fucking Dr. Mike, like, that's my guy, you know, yep. And they don't have to understand us, which is so beautiful. But I know, when you wake up, when you wake up in the morning, and you think about your recovery and then you think about your wife and kids like how much of this is for them like what are what are the feelings around the fact that your wife i mean god bless or

stayed with you right hung in there because we don't talk about the family enough like you can never talk about them enough but man i hear your story i hear a wife that stuck by you and i hear five kids that yeah still love you and for the most part know you as a sober man that's right and and that's that's it so my oldest were uh you know my my soph was probably 10 i guess 10 11 my michael was like 9 10 and then uh and then the little guys the last three were little you know so they don't remember you're right they don't remember and my older guys kind of get some of it you know i was always there for everything but i wasn't there you know like because if we're drinking and using drugs were not there so i wasn't you know the best dad um my wife yeah god bless her i mean it's like

i i was in treatment with two guys good friends one his wife stuck by him another wife was great great as soon as he got out you know divorced them so i'm very very lucky to have that and grateful for that but what did i'll tell you what the interesting thing is like when i was away at daddy camp which is what we called it because my wife and i dropped my two oldest at camp and then dropped me at treatment the same day so you called rehab daddy camp Daddy can't. And listen, they'd come down in the black suburban on Sundays on visiting day, and it was pure entertainment for everyone there.

They pulled it up, open up the hatchback, out with job, with the five kids with cars, balls. It was a circus. But I loved it. That's my family, right? So I was proud of it. But my wife said to people, because people, she told us, shared this with me. People would say stuff to her like, you know, aren't you going to divorce them, aren't you going to get, you know, she's like, no, I just want my husband back.

Like, this guy that now is a lunatic. Like, this guy's crazy, you know, like this isn't what I'm married. This isn't, you know, what I signed up for yeah so I think that's that's a huge thing the uh you know the yeah the family you're right I mean it's like come on you know it's it affects you know our behavior our recovery you know we talk about it all the time it affects the whole family oh 100% like because a lot of people don't make it you know a lot of people don't figure this thing out you know and it's like well you know we we know families that that you

tons of them of course so for me yeah my extended family you know look I got it in my family all through it right I mean I got a bunch of cousins that are figuring this thing out and you know uncles and you know it goes all up and down the tree so it's like so yeah I mean it's it's not why I did it you know to make my family proud but it's you know I think I'm a better dad better husband you know better brother better son you know better friend you know better doc definitely yeah so yeah that's amazing Yeah. And it's, you know, like to answer the question earlier about, you know, when I would walk out, if I'd say I took your colon out or did something, you know, I can remember a couple of my last cases that I did. And one was in particular was good. And like when I walk out and talk to the family, like it's, that's pretty powerful. I'll be honest with you. You know, I'm an athlete like you. Like, you know, we're always looking for that boost. Like it's, it's a pretty good feeling. But the feeling and you get it, you know, those of us that work in this field get it. When you can figure this out. and the light for someone help them and the light goes on for them that's the feeling that's

unbelievable you can't match that because you know oh man this is going to stick with he or she and it's going to affect so many people in their lives so well your story's crazy and you know it's going to save a lot of people i believe that i i've worked with a lot of doctors over the years and psychiatrists and I haven't I never met one like you before and I don't think I'll meet another one like you after and that's because you're just real man thanks and like I know that your patience and the people that you work with in our team here we we appreciate that and your humility and your ability to just be a team player is is unmatched so I love you for that I think we'll close with just like to the guy or girl or the young

Mikey that's out there 15 years ago like what what do you tell them if they're just starting this journey and they're just trying to make change yeah I think I think that's it I think that there's hope you know like you can I mean there's a period of time where I didn't think I could stop drinking or using drugs 100% I was like this is I'm just this is how it's going to be you know but there is hope for recovery and life is a whole heck of a lot better it really is yeah it really is because it was you know i mean i i think the last you know five to seven years it was just when they talk about that pure pain that pure hell that's what it was the pain was just so much yeah but i want them to know there's hope and you know the hard thing though is they got to ask for help

you know and that's what i finally did when i surrendered that's how i got better incredible well i'm sure i'm sure you will be back uh first guess maybe the best guest ever you know we can say that I don't know. Look, we're going to appreciate any support we can get on this thing. So like it, subscribe to it, share it. I'm saying all the things because I actually believe in the shit that we're talking about here. And the guests that we're having on to kind of carry a message and really talk about behavioral health care and the way that our world can just become a better place.

So that's it. A wrap on episode one. Thank you. Thank you. You got the emotion today, man. You brought it out of me. Love you, brother. Thank you.