The Zac Clark Show - A Mother, A Daughter, and the Power of Recovery | Molly Bierman and Nancy Ashcroft

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

This week, Zac and Jay sit down with mother-daughter duo Nancy Ashcroft and Molly Bierman for one of the most raw and emotional episodes yet. Molly’s story of addiction began in high school and spiraled quickly—through daily cocaine use, multiple treatment centers, and years of chaos. But this isn’t just her story. It’s Nancy’s too.Together, they open up about the pain of addiction, the shame and stigma families endure, and the complexity of a parent’s love. Nancy shares what it was like to get midnight phone calls from drug dealers, to feel helpless, and to finally draw a boundary that may have saved both their lives. Molly, now 16 years sober and a leader in the behavioral health field, reflects on the messy path to recovery and how her mother’s courage helped pave the way. Nancy's own journey led her to become a licensed therapist, now specializing in eating disorders, addiction, trauma, and family healing.This is a story about generational pain, resilience, and the power of healing—told by two women who lived it.If you’re a parent, a sibling, or someone navigating your own path in recovery, this conversation offers a wealth of experience and insight. For more about Molly’s behavioral healthcare practice – YES Family Consulting – please click here: https://www.consultyes.com/Connect with Zachttps://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclarkhttps://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release:[phone]releaserecovery.com@releaserecovery

All right, welcome back to what are you laughing at, the Zach Clark show? We're just getting ready. No, this is a special. So in the history of the Zach Clark show, I will say we have had some very interesting people on. We've had some very famous people on. Our most listened to episode to this point is a father and son sharing their story of recovery, which we're not famous and are not well known. Their story is just very powerful.

And today we have the other side of that. We have a mother, Nancy Ashcroft, and her daughter, Molly, who will always be Ashcroft for me, even though she's now Bierman. Shout out Sam, married to my good friend, here to share their story of recovery and hope with us. How are you guys? Good. How are you? Excited to be here.

Yeah. Thank you for having us. Nancy's a little nervous A little bit But I'm actually not as nervous as I was preparing for this So I'm feeling pretty comfortable You think you're nervous because you care right I mean like you're a therapist

You're like this is a powerful time Yeah totally it's Yeah it's returning back to a time that was very dark And hard Yeah We made it through thank God Yeah you're here Yeah

And Molly has helped so many people little background I've I've worked in behavioral health care really since I started how long are you sober 16 years yeah so you were already working in the field

when I showed up as a little young buck yeah I feel like we were kind of aligned in our journey yeah no I love the emotion Nancy and I appreciate the emotion my mom would be feeling the same way it can be confusing

because it's going to bring up some things around how you probably felt when Molly was struggling but also some gratitude to be sitting next to her and... 100%. 100%. Miraculous, honestly. Yeah.

Yeah. So Molly, I'll start with you. Where'd you guys grow? Where'd you raise the family? Guildford, Connecticut. Okay. New Haven County. Got it.

Oldest of four kids. You're the oldest? Yeah. Really paved the way. Okay. Trailblazer. Trailblazer. Yeah, grew up in Guilford.

Two loving parents. four kids really great life I competed in dance most of my life in those years a lot of friends a lot of family

a lot of connections were you a dance mom were you absolutely not no it's never my forte I was not even allowed backstage if you asked my daughter because

I didn't know what to do I didn't know how to do the hair I didn't know how to do the makeup still don't yeah I just have be in the audience. I was a good cheerleader. Yeah, and supporter. Yeah, drove us to all the competitions every weekend. I was there. I just couldn't be backstage. Fully there. Yeah, yeah. And so growing up, you, like, it was a white picket fence kind of existence. Is that the deal? Or is it? Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I think so. I mean, it was, it was white picket fence to the degree

that could be seen from the outside. I think there were challenges as far as, was like, you know, alcoholism. I mean, alcoholism runs on both sides of our family. Okay. And so there was definitely a predisposition there. And I was warned of the predisposition for sure. Pretty much all, right? Yep. Constantly. Dad, grandparents, uncle.

I remember my uncle early on, I'll never forget it, sitting in the front of our house. And I think I was sitting in the passenger side of his, like, you know, super nice. Jaguar. Jaguar, Mercedes, or whatever he was driving at the time. And he had been sober for a period of time, and I remember him telling me a story, you know. I was probably about 13. Oh, so you knew about sobriety young. Oh, yeah.

My dad's sober. My dad got sober when I was four. Oh, no shit. Okay, I didn't realize that. And so, you know, he would, he went to meetings when I was young, I think. And, yeah, there was definitely exposure. I mean, my grandmother is. sober on that side.

There are some people that have been in and out active, sober, you know. Yeah. So there was a lot of, there was a lot of communication about the risk for sure. Are you, can I ask, are you still married to Molly's dad? Is that? I am not. Okay. So, but you watch him get sober or?

Well, for the second time. I never knew him as a drinker. We met. He was sober for 10 years before. I met him, and then... So you met him and he was 10 years sober and kind of, yes. And then kind of fell off the rails, yeah, after I had Molly and her sister. And so you've been around this thing for a long time?

I have, yeah. Do you hate alcoholism or do you appreciate it? I don't want to say I hate it. I understand it much better than I used to. You know, maybe it was very fear-based. You know, I always think that you either act out of fear or you act out of love. And I don't want to say I hate it, but I understand it. Right.

And I respect it. It's powerful. The most powerful. Yeah. I think it's the most powerful. I put it up there against cancer and heart disease and diabetes and all those things because it's unpredictable. And we never know when it's going to come back.

And the way we treat it is a little bit kooky and bizarre. And, you know, but. Well, and I think it also is, it's the only disease that tells you you don't have it. Right. Right. So that's the challenge is that you think you can think your way out of it. So with all the education and knowledge and, you know, I was the person who was really adverse to even using substances or smoking cigarettes or alcohol because I knew, you know. Were you scared?

I mean, when you, when you, how did you talk? to Molly about it for the first time. Were you trying to scare her, or are you just trying to educate. Educate. No, I don't think I was trying to scare her, although I was scared. No, I think it was more that we wanted to educate them, that this is, you know, a potential risk and a high risk. And we had a family member who, you know. And my brother was really struggling at a time when Molly was young and, you know, you

it affects everybody and my your dad's name remind me Rick Rick yeah is sober now was he drinking when Molly was born is that no not until she was around three three yeah so I have a really only known him sober right yeah well some would say yeah someone say yeah sure we you know our inner child remembers it all yeah you know and we products of a lot of the things we don't remember. Yeah. I don't. The ruptures.

Yeah. Yeah. From the time. So how long into your childhood were you guys married? I don't want to get too personal. I'm just trying to set up a timeline. Two years before Molly was born. You were married and then how, like when did the divorce, like when did the separation?

Three months after I got sober. Oh, no way. So it was that it was later on in life. Yeah. I didn't realize that. 25 years. 24. Okay.

Okay. 24 years. Yeah. Yeah. Three months after I got sober and I was living in a halfway out so I'll never forget the day. Yep. I totally remember.

I'm sitting here assuming that it was like, you know, three years after she's born, he starts drinking and that's the end. No. Okay. Four kids later. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Amazing. So you're the oldest. I'm the oldest. You're blazing the trail. Blazing the trail. When is your first drink? Yeah. well we would say my first drink my first drink you remember the first drink well i remember the story

of her first drink so my grandmother i think my first drink was at the top of the omni hotel in new haven connecticut it was a mimosa with my grandmother and i was probably about 10 no um but my first actual drink of being intoxicated i even think there was a probably drink earlier than that it's at jones pool right when i was like five i think i took a sip of a beer I don't know. But the first official drink that I would say, and the timeline's fuzzy, right? Because my sister remembers me having my first drink and drunk and escapade with her. I don't actually remember that, right?

So as you stay sober and you start to collect the details through other people's lenses, like it looks a little bit different. But for what I remember, it was probably about 15 years old was my first, like, true drink. and up until that point I really just felt like I was never going to drink or use drugs because I really idolized my mom's brother and he really struggled. I mean, made the news struggled. Very high, you know, great career, great wife, great life. And in my mind, I just, and I tell people this story that I would look at him and be like,

how could you throw all that away for cocaine? Like, I just could not understand it. So there was this like ambivalence to use, you know, drugs and alcohol. And then, you know, peer pressure, whatever. But were you, so like the mother, I think about my mom and sister and their bond is unshakable. They've been through so much together. Were you guys growing up? Were you tight?

Was this relationship always? I mean, you guys, I see you today, and obviously it's a very strong bond, but. That's a very good question. I don't know that I've ever given that too much thought, but I don't think that I was a confidant of Mollies, even when she was young. She was always, like, extremely curious, adventurous. I was encouraging and supportive, but I don't think that I was a confidant. So I would say no, probably not. And then when her use started to happen, then, of course, you know, I was absolutely the number one enemy.

Yeah. And was like that for a while. So that was really painful. Which I think is important. So, spoiler, a lot of my following and fans, quote unquote, are moms based on just the show that I went on. and that the population, the demographic that watches that show and then the people that stuck around to follow me because of their connection to my message. And I think it's important for moms to hear that because it can be very confusing to be the public enemy number one within

your family to your daughter. And I remind those moms that of course you are, right? Like, of course you're the easiest person to attack and abuse and manipulate because you're at the end of the day you have to love your daughter yeah it was pretty gnarly though yeah i think on top of that it was intuitively and instinctively i knew there was a bigger problem than anyone else was willing to look at yeah the motherly intuition you're the second mom that's said that Harry's mom. Yep. Congresswoman Madeline Dean said the same thing.

The house is on fire and I'm the only one that knows it. Yep. I felt that way. I don't know if that was true, but that was my take on it. Look where we're sitting today. Yeah. Of course you knew. Yeah.

So 15, you start, you have a beverage, well, 10, you have a beverage with grams. Yeah. And then 15, you are curious and you're in high school. You're, what, a sophomore, a freshman? I was probably about a. sophomore in high school going into junior year maybe and i start drinking and there was a lot of marijuana a lot of smoking pot in my high school a lot of uh you know house parties bonfires that type of vibe you know so a lot of smoking weed drinking um and did you romanticize it i as soon as i started drinking

and had access, I started using marijuana every day. It was that fast. It was like I started drinking. I got some exposure to marijuana. You don't get high the first time. I still don't really totally understand why that is. But, and so you have to try it again, naturally. And I mean, I guess I do or other people do.

And I started smoking weed pretty much every day. I don't get the weed thing, man. I was never a daily weed. I just never. But then it like perpetuated, right? So then I'm at a house party and I'm dating a guy significantly older than me and somebody breaks out cocaine. This is at what age? I was about 16.

I mean, you know, a little spoiler here is like I'm in my first rehab at 17. So this like happened fast. But this is 19. This is 2004. 2004. Yeah. How old are you? Am I allowed to ask you that?

Sure. I'm 37. Oh, okay, I got a couple of years on you. Yeah. Okay, so this is 2000. I'll keep it that way. And, uh, 2004. So I'm in 2004.

I'm just, I'm, what I'm thinking about now and you're a therapist and like we are reading the news and we are seeing and people like that party today with the cocaine on the table. Yeah. Could produce a fatal overdose because of the. Totally. And that's, and that's the, I love that you just painted that picture because I think parents are having a hard time understanding like, what do you.

mean I have to, well, this is how it, like, we have gotten to the point where the progression is, you know, the progression now today is like, vapey, vape, you know, go buy weird drugs online, show up a party and the cocaine gets put out, but it's got fentanyl in it and that's why we're losing kids. But even if it didn't have fentanyl in it, right? Like, and I try to paint this picture to a lot of families that I work with, right? Is that you're so susceptible at that age, right? And John Lieberman talked a lot about that a couple weeks ago on that episode.

I thought he was great, by the way. I love him. I thought he was really good. And we have a long time connection. But, you know, so I'm at that house party. Somebody breaks out cocaine and I do one line. And then I'm like, oh, this is great. And I do 10.

Like the first time. Yeah. And then the shame and the remorse and waking up the next morning, my friend's scared because I'm totally, you know, off the rails already. and be saying, I'm never going to do it again. And every day. The chase every day. You're using cocaine every day by 16.

Every day. I remember, well, college, the first time I did Coke, it's the same thing. I woke up in my college dorm and I said the first thought I had was I'm never doing it again because my mom can't find out. I can't let my parents know that I've done this drug that I never said. that I would do. Well, I think there's that double life, right? And we'll kind of get to that in the story. But, you know, I held up the double life for a period of time. But I very clearly remember when I was like, I can't keep up the double life and had to really, you know, break the heart.

When do you know that your daughter is either smoking or drinking or that, like, I know you said you had this. Like, when was it confirmed for you? I actually thought it was earlier than her junior year. I think it was more like her sophomore year. So then. Dates are a little fuzzy. Yeah. And, you know, I was thinking when doing this, when, you know, accepting this offer to do this podcast, I was thinking, okay, what kind of advice can I give other people, other families, of their

mothers? I think I can only give advice by what I did wrong, and that was, you know, hovering and making sure that, you know, I knew exactly where she was at all times, not all times, but because we did have a lot of freedom also. I don't want to suggest that I was like over her all the time, but I made it a point to know where she was, who she was hanging with, and yet having rules in the house didn't seem to stop her. And my own boundaries didn't seem to stop her, and it seemed like she was, like Molly said, unlike my brother, she escalated very quickly. And so, you know, she tried to keep, we tried to keep everything

normal, you know, dance practice and school and, you know, friends and social life and swim practice and whatever it was that we were involved in. But I could just visibly see that she wasn't healthy at that time and she was getting more and more unhealthy and it worried me to the point where I really reached out to people and I'm not sure that they could see what I could see and whether it was because they were oblivious or they wanted to ignore it or they were fearful and didn't want to look at it so I think you know when I and I think I'm getting off but I think what I recognized now, you know, even before, even before Molly got sober, but was kind of on her way, was that I had to let go.

And that was really hard because she hated me to begin with. And then I was fearful, okay, I'm never going to have another relationship with my daughter again. But the other piece was that I had three other kids at home. My baby was four, you know, he was four years old. and I wasn't going for it. I lived in a house full of fear when my brother was using as we were growing up. So, you know, whether I was covering for him or ignoring what was happening, it was so familiar when this happened again with Molly that I was going to proceed in a different way than my parents said.

I just, I'm sitting here and thank you. wondering what it would look like for you to acknowledge that you really just were doing the best you can and you actually didn't really do anything wrong I mean because when you when you say the only thing that you have to offer on this podcast is that is what you did wrong I think you're underselling well I think it evolved everywhere I mean I think it evolved into a place where I began to to be more comfortable with how I was responding as opposed to reacting to her poor behavior. And it took a while.

It took a long while for me to get to that point. Al-Anon was like my saving grace, absolute saving grace, where I had to learn new skills, you know. And, you know, I think I was a different mother to Molly than I was to the other three children, too. What was your first crack at it? Yeah, it was. Yeah, I think it's important for everyone who's listening to understand is we're not here to blame anyone. We're not here. We had these families on.

Like, we are all, we've all made mistakes and we've all done really good things and we're going to throw it all in the middle of the table. I mean, like, that's, so you're 16. What are you thinking? No, no. Well, I'm curious what you were thinking at the time because, I mean, what's unique about this story is that there's such a history of the disease, you know, and so many different experiences of how to respond to that or what the person's going through. And you're aware of that. And are you just like, you're on the wave? On the wave.

You don't care. Don't care. Does a part of you care about not caring? Yeah, like there was part of me that felt sad about certain aspects of my life, right? Competing in dance was my life. I just ran into one of my dance friends I competed with 20 years ago in Kiowa this past weekend on the sidewalk. She was really excited too. I was like, oh, do I owe you an amends?

But I think that was what you most cared about, right? It's not that she didn't care about her family. That's not what we're saying. But I think, you know, at that time and stage of your life, you most cared about dance. About my friends and dance. Those were the things I cared about the most. And so. Which in some ways is every teenage girl.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It's normal. Yeah. And we didn't have this. Our life was very social. as kids. Like, my husband gets frustrated with me because on the weekends, I'm like, okay, we have this dinner. We have this play date. We have this, this and this. You know,

like that's how we grew up in community, like in a big neighborhood with a lot of people. So for me, the idea of being alone sounded like my worst nightmare in any sense of the word, right? So compound that with alcoholism. It's a recipe for disaster, you know? And so I, I just craved the connection, right, of the people that I was spending time with and the relief that I was getting from substances. Obviously, I couldn't articulate that at the time. But, yeah, it became like a daily chase to some pretty, like, crazy drastic measures, right? Yeah, how are you, I mean, at 16, 17 years old, how are you funding your habit if you're

doing cocaine every day? Army crawling into the bedroom to steal my dad's wallet. I mean, crazy stuff. Yeah. Yeah, crazy stuff. lying about really crazy, like, traumatic things to get money, you know? I mean, yeah. Stealing, lying, pawning.

Yeah. Pawning, jewelry. Yeah. Some pretty gnarly stuff. But you didn't feel like you were escaping, right? Like, I mean, a lot of people who talk about using drugs or alcohol, you know, it like gets them outside of themselves. Or they were so uncomfortable in their own skin, they needed to feel, you know, comfortable.

You know, I think that's like a really, like a little bit of a cliche tagline in the 12-step space is like, I drink because I need to feel a part of or I drink. And I'm not saying that that isn't true. I also drank because it felt good. I mean, I got high because it felt good, you know? So I do think there were some, there were some things like that I probably was numbing out a bit, you know? And, you know, there were some challenges that I had growing up, but nothing to the point where I was like, oh, this. is why, right? I had a predisposition and even going into treatment. You know, I'd been to multiple treatment centers and I remember, I think I was sitting across from a psychiatrist who I really

respected. And I remember sitting across from him and saying, I just don't understand, like, just give me a medication. Like something's got to be wrong with me. And he's like, I think you just like getting high. And I'm like, it was kind of nice and refreshing to be quite honest because I always feel like something was wrong right what is your relationship to alcohol i think i have a pretty healthy relationship with alcohol and you never like when you're like you just are you a two glass of wine yeah probably you know um i spit it really slow have you seen have you seen your mom drunk no never i mean maybe a little like in my old like now in life like maybe a little bit no i don't think I've ever seen you drunk. And even when I was growing up, I remember striving. This was

the thought, right? Striving to say, I'm going to be like my mom sitting at the dinner table, drinking a glass of wine. I'm not going to be like my dad going to a church basement. Uh-huh. I mean, and I fought tooth and nail to avoid where I ended up. But that's the insanity of like the alcoholic mind is that we romanticize and we glamorize the ability. to have three drinks as if that is going to do anything to get me to where I actually want to go. Sure.

I don't comprehend why someone goes out and has two drinks. It does not actually make sense to me. Yeah. That sounds terrible. Me too. Yet like you can have two glass of wine.

Like you're relaxed. Is that like? Yeah, I mean, I would actually answer this question for three alcohols. My family does not like it when I order a second glass of wine at the table because it takes me forever to drink. drink it. Yeah. You know, it's, you know, they're done with dessert and I'm still

a half a glass of wine. Well, they should respect you and hang out with you while you have your second glass of wine. Well, they have learned to do that. There was also a little bit of a shame tactic, too, I think, from her father. Your, my grandfather has since passed away, but he lived to a hundred. Wow. Long life. Just passed away last year. And he was very, you know, moderation, complete moderation. Like, if he saw her drink more than two glasses of wine, it would have been the yeah he'd probably cover my glass yeah you know as an adult i'm also thinking with you guys today like mollie and we see this a lot in our work and then i want to get into the wheels coming off but people always ask is it hereditary can you manufacture alcoholism is it

and and i've recently done some work on myself around child of origin and how things kind of get passed along and this is a this right here this story that i'm hearing i'm saying this is hereditary. Like when they say is alcoholism hereditary, I don't know if it's like a gene in the sense of it's baked into our bodies, but it can definitely be passed on like other behaviors. Agreed, regardless of the environment. I mean, we didn't keep alcohol in house when Molly was growing up. I think it has to do a little bit with attachments though, too, like attachment style.

What do you mean? Well, and as a parent now, like the, the awareness you have to your child and into the needs of that child. And I think there's a lot more conversation around the emotional needs of children now than there was, say, when we were growing up. It was kind of like, you know, come home when the sun goes down type situation, you know. And I'm not saying that we're doing everything, right? Because I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, a lot of anxiety and mental health and issues, you know, going on around adolescence. But I do think there's a little bit of how to improve the emotional awareness with your kids.

Do you think the idea of shielding them that if you delay, you know, this is what Mr. Lieberman talked about as well, that that is possible or will, can really affect an outcome? I really don't know. I mean, there's studies that say like if we delay, the longer we delay the first use, right, the better chance we have of them not becoming. Yeah, that's what John said on that. Yeah, sure.

Yeah. But I also hear you, and you didn't have a shot. There was no shielding Molly. She was going to go do what she was going to do, which is why I look at you and I feel this emotion coming from you that you actually almost still feel guilty, and you didn't do anything. I mean, like that's, and that's what the mothers need to hear and see.

Thank you. I don't really feel guilty. I think I'm more grateful. and appreciative of, you know, our fortunate situation. You know, there was a time I thought I'd never see Molly again. So at that point, I don't think I felt guilty. I felt like at a loss. I couldn't protect her.

When was that time? Um, she was not even 17. so hard to remember hard to put myself back there you know you'd get a phone call in the middle of the night from one of her drug dealers i thought maybe she was dead you know she was she'd you know skip out at night didn't know where she was and you know put herself in really dangerous situations know, my mother's husband was an ex-police officer. I had him, you know, trailing her. It was a nightmare, absolute nightmare. And then I realized, you know, she was on the run, and I needed to, I needed to, you know, kind of separate myself from her with love and light. And that's kind of what I did. I distanced. I loved her. I wasn't allowing her back. I had to kick her out of the house. I

didn't allow her back in the house. I mean, it was, it was years of horrific turmoil. Molly, do you, what are you feeling right now? Because I know for us, like, we're pretty well evolved and we feel like we've cleaned, but like my mom talks about my use and I still feel like the scum of the year. Well, now I have kids. So I'm like, distraught thinking that, you know, I could do that to my mom, you know.

And my, you know, my dad and my siblings, my youngest brother who you guys just met, I mean, he was only four, he was, he was, he was four or five when I went to my first treatment center, you know, so all he knew was my dysfunction. And my other two siblings really, really struggled with it, bad. So, yeah, the, the unmanageability, you know, at all costs. I really drank and used at all costs. Nothing stood in my way, ever.

Is the count? How many treatment centers? Oh, God, I lost count. 12. So when you went to the first rehab and you came out, you're 17? I drank. Before I even got home. Yeah.

Was there for four months. Nothing had changed. You go away for four months. You're 17 years old. How did you end up in treatment the first time? intervention you got you hired someone formal intervention well no we kind of did our own on our own but we had molly's therapist involved and um yeah you did the thing you read the letters you sat her down yeah had her dance teacher there that's why i went oh wow had nothing to do with me

or her dad or her grandmother that's why when we do intervention i mean families will call me all the time and say you don't know my kids you don't know my daughter though they're going to run you know I said, well, let's get someone in the room that they respect. She tried to run, literally had to strap her, you know, in the backseat of the car, told her we're going to go. Going right outside of New York. Two weeks. Yeah.

Where'd you go? Karen. Oh, you did? Yeah. Formal. It was her senior year second semester. Wow. I graduated.

Yeah, I graduated with my walking, or I graduated with my class on a home pass from treatment. I finished high school in rehab. How did you get to Karen? you know for moms for parents out there how did you come to okay you know i don't even remember how i got to karen quite honestly um i had a friend who had been there yeah and rene i think maybe yeah because she sent a bunch of kids yeah would you have graduated if you didn't go to karen it was her best semester ever it was dream it's over would you because i i struggle with this and i don't know molly where you stand on it when the mom

mom calls and they have an adolescent, once you pull that kid out of school, you can't really undo that, right? And so it, for me, you kind of got to make sure it's at the point where it requires that, which it sounds like it did. I'm just. It was a lot of legwork. I, I mean, we had, I had a tremendous relationship with the dean, the, the, you know, Molly's guidance counselor. I mean, they went above and beyond. Yeah, to make sure. that she could graduate when she did yeah so you're 17 and you get sober when 21 20 so what is that four years because I can't imagine that we have time for all of it but let's let's hear the yeah just really feeling like I needed to figure it out right that I could figure out how to drink and

use safely that was a big one because I was young there was not a lot of young people getting sober I mean, at the time, my first exposure to treatment at 17, I'm with about 60 kids that are 17, right? So it was kind of booming back in the day, right, at Karen. It was a lot of adolescence. But when I got home, there was no one, right? So I really kind of made it my mission to try to figure it out independently. And maybe it was just a substance. And if I just didn't do Coke or if I just didn't, you know,

you know, if I moderate it, you know, all the craziness. And it just continued to spiral. And I would go into treatment. I would get out. I would, you know, link up with a, you know, a running buddy, you know, somebody who I was dating at the time. Inconsistencies with people that I was, you know, hanging out with. Just people that were just as much of a challenge in life as I was, right? and I think when I stopped playing the double life to my family and really just kind of said

I'm not ready yet, that's really when the turning point happened for me that I was able to hit bottom a little bit more quickly, right? That there was always this kind of juggling act. Like I missed a family event and I'll call and try to make up for it and I'll try to figure it out or how to show up. I mean, somebody's communion or confirmation or a kid's, you know, one of my siblings' birthday parties or whatever it was, right? I was always trying to juggle and try to figure it out. And when I finally said, like, this is my lifestyle and I'm drinking and using the way that I see fit and don't have really any, I had shame about it, but was very

vocal about it to my family. I think that finally catapulted me into, oh, once I spoke that into existence, since I really don't want this to be my life, right? And I went in and out of enough treatment centers, and I had a lot of education. Look, I was the person who went to rehab and, you know, the therapist would be like, she can run the group, right? Because I had the zest in me to want to help,

be available, connect, be around people. And then I would just go back into this darkness of isolation and lack of awareness of really anything. but you know relief with drugs and alcohol and so did you have any sober time in that four years like 30 days here and there a lot of 12-step communities would kind of rally around me I mean they dragged me they brought me to young people's you know retreats all the things lying about your day count lying about being sober all that kind of stuff yeah taking money out of the basket yeah oh yeah I had a I had a friend who saw me at a gas station and begged me and said I'll

help you in any way that I can I was just like I'm not ready and uh you know through a series of events. I've been sober since December 15th of 2008. And that day I decided to call my dad because my mom's fiercely an Al-Anon, right? So like just so over this, thank you, over this three and a half four-year period, the phone rings and your heart,

like any time the phone rings is your heart? Oh yeah. Absolutely. I mean, she was living like in squalor. It was not good. Not at home. Oh, no. He'd be kicked out.

Yeah. But that's like, so my question there is like, that's real trauma that I think moms need to like understand. That's three and a half years of your life where that phone rings and there's something happening to your system, to your nervous system that I think a lot of mothers try to just blow off. Even here, sitting here with Molly being sober and healthy and two children and a beautiful family. For you, I'm just curious what that three and a half years looked like and have you, I mean, given yourself the opportunity to really heal? Because I think that's part of the thing that parents miss. It's like, it's awesome that Molly is well. But are you giving yourself the opportunity to really?

I would say yes. I mean, fortunately, I think I took full advantage of Al-Anon, but also I had a yoga practice that, you know, I was kind of on this spiritual quest. also, and I think that kind of grounded me. I also needed to be a mom for three other kids who had their own stuff going on, right? And I mean, there's 12 years difference between my oldest and youngest. So, and I was it. I was, you know, the caregiver, 100% of the time. So I think, yes, I did commit to my own self-care. I knew that I had to. I had to. I otherwise, I would fall apart. I really would.

And by the time, Molly was no longer living in the house, and it was very lonely not having her there. It seemed like there was always this void, always this space that no one else could fill. Yeah, every time the phone rang, my heart would stop. Yeah. Was there cell phones that? Are we still talking landline?

Um, we had, she didn't have a cell phone. Yeah, so no, it was the landline. Um, there were cell phones available. I just would, I would get like, burner phones. I'm just painting a picture in my head of you sitting on the couch and the phone. Yeah. Well, mostly it was like in the middle of the night. That's when the phone would break, you know, looking for Maui or. And so you tried everything over this three and a half years and eventually I'm assuming that you gave up, right? And you're like, mine that this was just going to, this story was going to end, however it was going to end. And. Yeah. I don't think I want to say that I gave up. I was always hopeful that it would end in a, in a, you know. When I say gave up, like gave up the, the, my fight. The struggle. Yes, I think so. I think I had to focus on other things. And Molly wasn't willing for my help and she wasn't confiding in me and she wasn't sharing.

You know, I remember one time, you know, seeing her in the, I knew where she was going to to go and get her coffee or whatever it was. And I remember going with my brother and my mother. And, you know, Molly was this big. And I almost didn't recognize her. And she really didn't want to have a conversation. And at that point, I thought, wow, you know, I felt like so much at a loss that no matter how much I pushed or encouraged

or wanted to have a conversation or provide support and help financially. emotionally, whatever it was, she was not interested. It was, it was brutal, really brutal. So December 15th, 2008, what happens? Oh, boy. Well, I'm... Or maybe I should ask December 14th of 2008. Yeah. Well, I'm pretty, I'm pretty destitute. You know, I'm living recklessly. I'm not able to hold down any sort of semblance of a life and I'm with a guy who I met in the 12 step community that had sober time at one point and then went off the rails as well and I basically felt like there was nothing there was nothing catastrophic to be quite honest like I woke up one day and I was living in the same like horrific conditions I'd been living in and kind of a drug infested area

where, uh, not far from where, where we grew up far enough, but not, not too far. And I tried to get into detox, couldn't for a variety of different reasons. And I ended up calling my dad and saying, I think I need help. They were a little fed up with me, you know, even my dad at that point and my dad tended to be one who would kind of come to my rescue a little bit and he this is how I remember it maybe he remembers it differently but he said if you're you know willing you need to meet me tomorrow at such and such place right and 24 hours is a long time for somebody who is having a moment of clarity right because that moment of clarity can change pretty quickly to not wanting to get so yeah and for whatever reason I held

on. And I think there was also a little bit of like they needed to feel that I was really ready because I would call and say I was ready and then I was the person that like they wouldn't hear from me for four weeks. I mean missing persons reports the whole bit, you know. And I ended up meeting my mom, my dad and a woman who was in the in 12 self recovery that I didn't know. but she knew my family, and they basically helped her kind of facilitate a next step for me. And it was more so, hey, we have to figure out where you're going to go and you need to do it our way or you're not doing it, you're doing it our way or no way at all, right? That's your choice because I always like to dictate and, you know, I still like to dictate in my life.

but I like to dictate a lot during that time and I ended up honestly detoxing on her couch like a true 12 step call to be honest and at that point I was able to stay there for a few days until finally they found a place for me to go and that's where I started to do the work

and change my life and you might remember it a bit differently I do but that's okay Do you have hope in this moment, Nancy, or like when she's... Well, at that point, I still wasn't allowing her in the house because I needed to be convinced that she was serious about it. You know, enough times had gone when, like she said, you know, I'm ready and then I'm not and I'm ready and then I'm not.

So I wasn't 100% convinced and I wasn't really on the same page as Molly's dad at that point. And so I kind of held the line there. And Molly didn't realize that it was just me holding the line at that point, which I think was something that I just learned yesterday, which I think was helpful for Molly. You know, to think that we were a united front when we really weren't. You know, if I had caved, you know, she would have been back in the house, like, that day. And I wasn't having it. I absolutely wasn't going to have that. But I always believed that they were on the same page.

so when I talk to parents and I say you know you need to be united front even if you disagree on the back end your loved one needs to feel like you were united oh the splitting and that because that's where the splitting happens right but I didn't know that and you know so kudos to mom and dad right for presenting differently to me because I didn't sniff that out and I would have because I sniffed out you know every loophole you know the identified patient and treatment is one thing. But we can acknowledge that we get a lot of support. 12 treatments, you had a lot of groups, the parents are the ones that oftentimes are left to figure it out. And I hear you talk about not letting your daughter back into the house. And that's the question I probably get more than any other question from parents of adolescents like do I kick them out on the street do I not let them in my house and it's certainly

for me case by case I can't imagine how hard that was but at the same time you needed to protect yourself and that didn't mean you didn't love her correct I also needed to protect my other kids right and that's you know that's I I think that that was really what was the driver for me was I couldn't have that behavior in the house with three impressionable kids. And, yeah, I was trying to protect them too. I'm not sure that I did, was able to do that 100%, but that's okay, you know. But I think, you know, by the time Molly was ready, I remember laying in my bed with her, you know, just holding her. You know, it was cathartic, you know.

I could tell that she was ready to surrender. So found a place for her that, you know, she didn't need another treatment center. She had been to, you know, she could run them by then. Yeah. So we found a place in Maryland that, you know, it was a sober community, a sober house, where she had to either work or go to school and.

Oh, that's how you end up in Maryland? Yeah, yeah. Bel Air. Yeah. MRP or whatever it was. Exactly. Yeah. wow yeah yeah no shit um do you believe that this process like do you like that day how much of it was

how much of it was spiritual how much of that was your moment of clarity or do you oh yeah i mean i think there's this element where you know we'll hear they're not ready to surrender right or they don't believe that they're powerless. I believed that from almost the first time I drank. I believed that I was powerless over alcohol and other substances. And yet I don't think I cared, right? That's really my story. I didn't feel like the consequence,

usually what I tell folks is like when you're looking to get and stay sober, the consequences have to outweigh the relief. whether that's emotional, spiritual, material, whatever it is for you. And for me, it had to be all. And so once the consequences outweighed the relief and I was using, you know, using, and it wasn't really doing much for me anymore,

that's really where the change happened. You know, the consequences had to outweigh the relief for me to get well. Were you communicating with your siblings towards the end? very fragmented relationships very fragmented they were very let down um hurt super angry angry yeah yeah yeah i remember i would you know leave voicemails because that's all i knew how to do right like just like leave a voicemail and be like hey i'm calling to let you know like you know just to see how they were right just hey how are you right always

leading with like how are they right not talking about me because it really wasn't about me anymore right it had been about me for most of their life you know so it was a lot of unanswered calls for a long time and there was my mom and I were talking about this story and I saw Nathan last night my one of my brothers lives not far from me with his wife and their and their child which is a miracle in and of itself that we have a relationship and I remember making amends to him when I was a maybe under a year sober, right? And

he listened. He didn't really respond, but he listened. And years later, we're at dinner. I'm probably about six years sober at the time. And somehow the amends process came up and we started talking about it because I had lost a friend to an

overdose. And through that conversation, he looked at me and he said, there was not one fiber. of my being that believed you were going to be alive at my, um, at my college graduation, I will 100% believe that you were going to be dead at my high school graduation. And through that, I really understood the gravity, right? I think there's a lot of families that are scared to rock the boat and say how they really

feel about the IP and who's struggling, you know. because they feel like they could force a relapse, right? So if my brother really communicated and said, I'm scared or I don't believe you or I'm really fucking mad, that he would be afraid that that would send me right over the edge, right? So there came a time where they were willing. And some folks in my life, it's been years before they were willing to say, like, this is how it affected me, right?

So, yeah, it's been a journey with my siblings, for sure. Yeah, and I think thank you for sharing that. Shout out. What's this? Nathan. Nathan? Yeah. Shout out Nathan.

Is he a Normie? He's a Normie, yeah. Yeah. Love Normie. My brother, Matt's is a normie. I love a laugh, too. We needed it. Right, Jay?

Yeah, we could. Anybody? Anyway, this part in the story is really the part that intrigues me because family members, identify patients, whatever we want to call ourselves, the system gets to day one a lot. We get to day one. And that's really confusing because then what do we do, right? And we have to hope that Molly gets well. And then we have to heal ourselves.

And so I would ask you, Nancy, like at what point? do you actually believe that Molly is going to stay sober? And what do you do from the time she goes down to Maryland and you know she's in a safe place? Like what do you begin to do for yourself or when do you become a therapist? Like tell me your story, Nancy. Yikes. Well, I think it was a relief to get her in a place where, you know,

she was willing to go and do some work um marriage was kind of crumbled at that point so that was it was kind of a pivotal time really for when she went marriage ended um needed to figure out my own life and where i was going to go and what i was going to do i was a stay at home mom for you know quite a long time for seven 18 years 20 years maybe 30 years i can't even remember It was a long, long time. And best job that I ever had, you know, and I'll never regret a day of it. But at that point, you know, I needed to kind of financially support myself and do something. I feel like I get resumes sometimes and I'll ask about a gap and the person will say like I was, I was being a mom.

I was like, you got to put that shit on your resume. Yeah. Like that is a job and it deserves to be on the CV if you ask me being a mother. In fact, it's harder than most. I mean, kudos to you for acknowledging that. Thank you. The hardest job. So then I decided, well, I was working in a cancer center as an integrative therapist using my yoga and Reiki and essential oil therapy and contemplative care and decided I was going to go back to school and get my master's and go into social work, which I did, with absolutely zero interest of working with substance use disorder.

clients no interest zero i think it was just way too painful for me at that point um but as mollie's recovery continued and my security improved with you know how i felt about her well-being i was able to distance myself a little bit from that pain and for whatever reason They found me. So I work a lot with substance use disorders and families, families, spouses, children, parents. I, you know, if you couldn't tell by now, because I do cry all the time, I cry with all my patients, I cry with my clients, I'm empathetic. I feel I can put myself in someone else's shoes. I can put myself in Molly's shoes.

I can put myself in, you know, the parent's shoes or the sister's shoes or the brother's shoes. And it's painful. I can understand. I can feel it. I feel like I can offer a safe space to kind of work through it. I don't really talk about my experience at all with my clients. This would be a shocker for them to see me on this. but I think it's my life experience that has been

not the path that I had ever anticipated at all and I have this banner in my bedroom that says we must be willing to let go of the life we have to have the one that's waiting for us and I look at it every day I'm like I wonder what that will be and it's so different than I ever anticipated but I think because of Molly's recovery and her ability to improve on her own well-being and do the work that she's doing, like the work that you're doing is healing.

It's, it keeps her healthy. Yeah, and Molly's a real deal. I mean, that's, and that's something we talk about a lot. Like, there are degrees of recovery, and I don't judge anyone's recovery. I mean, there's a thousand ways it's going to cap, but I believe that, In order to do the work that we do in behavioral health care, we need to put our life mask on first or whatever they say. And Molly has done that from, you know, maybe not day one when she was, you know, still out there running around. But I think when you finally...

Yeah, pretty close to it. Got it. Yeah. Raise the bar. I remember sitting across from like the first, when I got to Maryland and I remember sitting across from a therapist who was going to be, you know, working with me once a week or whatever it was. and he looked at me and he said, you're going to need to raise the bar of who you spend your time with.

And you're going to need to start reaching for the people that have years of recovery because you have no idea how to get there. There's a lot of people who want to be sober. There's a lot of people who need to be sober. There's not a lot of people who do it. Right? So you really need to get to the other side of this thing.

You know, all those centers later, right? Someone who just really told me the truth and about moving my feet. And through that, and through my experience of watching families and watching my own family and countless others, I say to families, look, you can do the opposite of what I'm suggesting, right? And you will probably have your own consequences. You also need to feel comfortable laying your head down at night and believing whatever you decide to do is what's right for you.

right so going back to that like conversation that you said about adolescent families what does it look like do i kick my kid out of the house or not right because i get that call a lot too or i get that question a lot and i say if you lay your head down and you have to be comfortable in whatever decision you make right and so for me being asked to be out of the house was the best thing that ever happened it would have taken me a lot longer to get sober I think I had to really go through some you know tumultuous times right to really believe that I suffered the way that I suffered and that the only path forward was absence from drugs and alcohol

I just want to say Nancy like I just think you're a fucking rock star because I just feel your pain it is so raw and you go through this whole thing with your daughter I know that there's, I was going to ask when the, you know, I know you have other siblings that also went through this journey. You're seeking some sort of spirituality through yoga. You're working with people who have cancer. And then, uh-oh, I'm going to leave the, the central relationship of my life, my partner,

at the height of my daughter's trauma, you know, like, I just think that's amazing. And I just think there's so much strength in courage that you probably didn't even know you had, obviously, and still have, to be able to do that. Because people will just give up. You know, they will give up. You know, they will stay in the unhappy marriage or they will not do everything they can to take care of themselves to help their family and help themselves. And I don't know why you're that way, but I just think it's amazing. Thank you.

appreciate that are you happy today i am yeah i'm happy i'm happy i'm happy that my kids are healthy and yeah i'm happy life is good is there anything you've wanted to say to molly that you like you like what would you say to molly like what would you say to molly about her recovery that i haven't already said yeah she gives me a lot of cards yeah well i just continue to tell her how proud i am of her You know, Molly has always been the one who she puts her mind to something and she does it, whether it's a good choice, positive choice, or not such a great choice. But like she said, you know, she knew right away that there was an issue and really wasn't willing to make the healthier choice until she was.

And so for that, I think that took a huge amount of strength, changed her life completely. You know, we talk about changing our life midstream. Molly did that as a young person. She was 21 years old. I mean, that's young. And I'm forever grateful of her tenacity, quite honestly. And I'm so proud of the work that she does now to this day. I think it, again, like perhaps my yoga or my spiritual base,

is a little bit different than Molly's but what happens with Molly is she helps someone or a family or a loved one and it makes a huge difference not only to them but to kind of seal the deal for her that this is important

this is necessary and this is keeping me sober and stronger and I love that I love that for her Molly thank you as a mom now watching you

your mom today, what, is there anything you want to say to mom or coming up for you? I don't know how you did it. I look at, you know, my kids, Bodie and Madden. My daughter is nine months and my son is three. And yeah, I mean, the power of your own. recovery process, the power of, you know, we recover, not just I, right? That goes for the families too. I mean, without my mom's experience and boundaries, I don't know if I'd be here, you know? And being the trailblazer and in a really uncomfortable time, right? Because back then it wasn't really talked about. It was pretty stigmatized. and you know she was never ashamed of me you know so i think that's important important for parents

because i think people are in fear of talking about it and you know forever grateful that uh she never backed down you know yeah it's beautiful what a beautiful story of recovery and how many recoveries have come as a result of this one I want to spend the last five minutes talking a little bit selfishly about Molly and the work you do so people can find you and hear about you. And that is a part of the reason that I want you here because you're so good at what you do. But before I do that, do you have any? No.

You're good? You're breathing. That's the first time Jay's first time Jay's ever been speechless here. We got Sarah crying in the wings. So what Molly has been humble about to this point is that she is, a leader in the behavioral health care space. She's helped build really three separate programs. I mean, you started at Westport House. You went to Mark and then a novo. And now you're really doing some impressive consulting. Can you, you know, not so humbly, tell the people what you do,

like explain the service that you offer, what you're currently doing and how people find you and all that good stuff? Yeah. So I am with Yes, Family Consulting. We're a concierge, behavioral health practice that helps families create scaffolding around the system to create change in the behavioral health space. So could have, could be addiction focus, could be other mental health challenges, and how families become more proactive than reactive with their crisis, their challenge, their communication style. And we really build that for them and help catapult them into a new a new path right i i feel like a lot of it's an under i think there's there's not a lot out there to help the families i mean i think families are typically in a proactive space and so i'm

sorry in a reactive space and so when they're going and supporting their loved one in treatment it's really as it pertains to the actual client and really what we do is create the scaffolding around the system to motivate them and help them change their own patterns and behaviors to not get stuck in an unhealthy system. And so you can find us through yes consulting.com. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm happy to be a support, help, all the things. Molly, her last name is Bierman now because she has been married.

She continues to be humble here. So prior to this experience, I mean, you built a detox. You ran a residential program. Oh, yeah. Well, if you want to know about all that. I'm just saying like your experience is probably rooted in some of the experience you have with your mother, which was shared today. And then also, you know, you know your shit. You're a pro.

And I think the thing I'll say about Molly, I will talk about Molly. Molly is the person you call when you need a quarterback for the family to guide them from point A to point B. When Molly was 16 and a half years old and she was going to treatment for her first time. time the phone call Nancy would have made was to Molly and hopefully it wouldn't have taken three and a half years. Maybe it would have taken a little bit shorter because there's professional guidance and we would have gotten to some of the maybe answers that Nancy got to sooner, which is why you hire someone like Molly and we've collaborated with her and we've worked with her and we've seen, you know, her successes. Yeah. Thank you. Of course. Creating healthier

systems and understanding that it is a continuum for both the family and the client right and understanding that there's not going to be a one size fits all and the work really begins once the client goes to treatment yeah that's really where the work begins for the family to recover i'm glad you said that because there is this like sigh of relief that happens when someone ends up in treatment it's like not so fast you're actually just getting started yeah the cortisol levels are just It's coming down. So last question I just want to ask quick before we cut. And this has been amazing.

Thank you. Seriously, Jay said it perfectly. You're a legend. And Molly, you know how I feel about you. So two seconds on women. Like, why are women underserved as a female in recovery? Like, I think it's so powerful that we have a mother and daughter here. And I don't know.

I'm just feeling this lately. Like, why I feel like less women are getting sober. I've always believed they have more resources to stay drunk, essentially, for lack of a better term. I think there's a good amount of data that shows people are more fearful as women to come out and speak about their recovery, that at times you feel you'll be judged as a mother, as a daughter, as a friend. For me, I have helped countless women. I really believe in the power of female relationships. I've run a women's meeting at my house since 2020 when meetings shut down.

Like I'm a really big supporter of women and the connection to women. I think that there's, yeah, a lot of shame, right? A lot of shame to be able to say I lived in a way that I don't, that wasn't intended, right? That my path didn't have to look like that, but that's the way that I lived. you still, quote, unquote, accept me or support me or bring me into your circles and spaces, right? I've really grappled with that now, right? With having kids, how much I talk about my recovery, how much I share, right?

And I surround myself with a lot of women that value that. And so I encourage other women because we are out here. We are available. We are here to support other women and say, you know, your story doesn't identify you, it catapults you, really? Yeah. That's how I feel. I would agree.

I think shame is probably the number one. And just to piggyback on that, you know, when Molly was struggling and there wasn't a lot of talk about it, I mean, she wasn't the only one struggling in our community, but I feel like I was the only one who had a voice in the community that shared it. And I don't think that that's common for women. And I'm not quite sure why. think that shame is a huge factor yeah fearful of losing their community fearful of you know losing respect yeah um you know you ask me in the beginning you know do i hate alcoholism i think it comes

i think it comes down to that we need to respect the power of it i just think from what i've been like this is what we've been doing this podcast like things come up you know like there are themes things you hear over and I just feel like stigma the shame like I hear it so we hear it so much and in people that are like long term you know I know and I just feel like what it comes it's and this is only one aspect of it but it feels like a major part of it's that it's just not really believed or respected as a disease yeah because you do not question people think that they have a choice right it's it's not a choice to be an alcoholic it's not like you're going to wake up and or grow up and want to be a drug addict you don't want that it's not your choice it's so yeah you know i do think that there's

still a lack of education and a lack of understanding and needs to be improved upon i hope this helps well you guys i know you were nervous but i also knew that you've done work and i know you've done work and jay is still very sick no i'm just joking but we um we i knew that I knew that you guys would show up and be honest and we're just grateful that you're willing to share your story with us. And I am excited to see the reaction from other moms and daughters who see this because it's for whatever reason. And I think we just talked about it. You see the story of the father and the son a little bit more. And it's weird because the fathers don't show up.

I don't know. Or maybe you see the mom and the son more. There's a lot of mom and son. Yeah. You don't see this. A lot of mom and stuff. So, thank you.