The Zac Clark Show - A Parent’s Mission To Overcome The Tragedy Of Addiction: Honoring Nic Pagano

Episode Date: January 7, 2025

On January 23rd at City Winery, we honor the life of Nic Pagano through a night of music and community. After losing Nic to an accidental overdose in 2021, his father, Rich Pagano, has turned unimaginable grief into a mission to raise awareness and provide hope. The Nic Pagano LGBTQIA+ Scholarship for Recovery is not only a tribute to Nic’s memory but also a lifeline for others in need of treatment, particularly in the LGBTQIA+ community. In this deeply emotional episode, Rich shares his family's journey through Nic’s struggles with substance use disorder. He opens up about the pain of loss, the lessons they learned, and the hope they’ve found in honoring Nic’s legacy. It’s an episode for parents navigating the heartbreak of addiction, for families seeking guidance and understanding, and for anyone who believes in the power of compassion and recovery. Nic was a bright, compassionate, and talented soul who dreamed of helping others as a social worker. Though his life was tragically cut short, his legacy now lives on, opening doors for others to find recovery and inclusion. Join us in celebrating Nic's light while supporting this critical cause. Tickets are selling fast—don’t miss an unforgettable evening of music, hope, and connection.  For tickets and more information about the Nic Pagano LGBTQIA+ Scholarship For Recovery Event, please click here: https://tinyurl.com/a22aynhc Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right. So welcome back. This is a really special episode for me personally. I do want to preface it by saying that if you are out there and you are a listener, we are going to talk to someone today who's a good friend of mine, but that lost his son to an overdose. And so if that is triggering for you, I want to put that on the table immediately right now so you know. But on the flip side of that, there's a lot of hope in this episode. We're going to get into the weeds a little bit about his story, his son's story. And the real reason we're here is because the beautiful thing that's come from this ungodly tragedy of losing Nick is every year at City Winery here in New York City. If you know me, you know that I have a foundation, that foundation or that nonprofit, we raise money to help people get treatment. One of our core missions is to help the LGBTQIA plus community because they are historically underserved. So every year at City Winery, we have an event. This year it is out on January 23rd, and the person who puts on that event is also my guest today.

So Rich Pagano, welcome to the Zach Clark Show. Thank you, Zach. Thanks for having me. Can I comment on one thing you just said? Comment away. That's what we're here for. thanks you know it's interesting that you mentioned you know what could be triggering and I I do find that I've since Nick's death I've become a certified sober coach and I mainly deal with families and every once in a while I'll have a Zoom group or a live group or

even a couple of parents or siblings and when they hear the story I can tell that in their tone it's why am I listening to you didn't work out so well for you you know and I have to always add it didn't but with the tools that I learned through release recovery and your team the way we can talk about Nick being a client of yours and also Karen treatment and then of course through my training recently but we kept Nick alive for an additional 18 months with our tools and boundaries and compassion. And that's what I try to impart, in part, is how that worked to keep his life. Unfortunately, he went to the street and he made a mistake.

He had a choice. But we were able to help him to stay alive with what we learned for us over tools. Yeah, so I mentioned the event. I want to get into the event, but I want to start with Nick. So the event, just to reference it, the Nick Pagano, LGBTIQIA plus scholarship for recovery event, again, is January 23rd. So obviously, Nick was and is, I believe, in the spirit of him here with us today. Your son, I met Nick. It had to be 2018.

Is that right to you? And then when did we lose him? Before he was 19. Okay. Oh, when did we lose him? Yeah, year. I think I'm going to relapse. A 2021, July 2nd, 2021.

Right. Yeah. Okay. And so as a parent, I want to relive some of the good times. When did you know that Nick had a substance use disorder? When did you know that this might be a journey that you're, that you were going to go on with him and with you, with your, with your. family at what age or at what time when did that well I mean the perception of a substance use disorder took a couple of maybe a year and a half for me because I didn't

understand the substance use disorder when Nick was 14 he started becoming a wake and bake you know a lot of weed not going to school you know catching him partying alone on a rooftop elsewhere constantly following him on his phone And between triple C pills and THC, we were advised to have him go to Karen treatment for 30 days. And he was diagnosed with... And that's at 14 years old. That was 14, yeah.

And just so everyone knows, Rich is a musician. So he's grown up around plenty of drugs. I mean, like, you know... And I had no patience. Right. I was that guy in the band that didn't really drink and I never really did drugs. I smoked some weed for a minute, but I hated it.

And I was that guy in the band who would criticize lack of self-control. And so when Nick suddenly started using on some level, of course, I was that ignorant parent who felt, how could you do this to me? But I learned, and that's a whole other story of how we learn to understand compassion. I think Nick was brought into my life to actually become a more compassionate person. But, yeah, so he was diagnosed that first time at Karen treatment as having a physical dependency to THC. He was a 30-day program and didn't go to a step down. At that time, when you were at, I mean, so Nixon, Karen, and he's 14 years old, and where are you and you're, obviously, you've come a long way in your own recovery, and we always talk about the importance of family members taking care of themselves.

Your son's 14. I mean, it had to rock you. Are you at that point willing to start to do some of your own work? Are you still resistant and say, okay, Nick, you have to figure this out, and I'm going to kind of be over here? The latter. I actually, you know, the family meetings, the family weekends were really helpful to peak my interest in understanding myself and understanding the disease. But for the most part, I went back to my life as a musician and just keeping an eye on him because he did come back home. until a year later that we had to get him out of the house to an inpatient program.

We moved on. But no, I fought it. I fought it. I was young and dumb with the whole process of understanding it as a disease. And do you remember at that time, had you been introduced or had you met anyone else that had lost a child? No. No, not. You know, when we started doing groups,

groups in the city with a sober coach, and there was every cross-section of parents there. You had billionaire parents, you know, capital investment families or employment, right to people who were from the projects coming there. Of course, the playing field was level because everyone was there for the same reason. No one had lost their child in that group, but it was the first time that I heard what would eventually be my life because we all had the same life your story is exactly like

my son Nix you know where it goes the depths, the street the stealing and it was a big wake-up call but it was funny you ask because it was a time even hearing all of these stories and thinking

oh he's not going to be that bad you know he's just going through something right now and yeah It got bad. And I still fought it. I still fought it with, you know, you saying things like, you know, dropping them off the many times in the early days to a sober or to an inpatient treatment center saying, you got to land this time. I didn't understand boundaries with compassion yet. Then I got deeper into it with a better sober coach.

I want to say something quick just while you're on that because you said something that drives me absolutely nuts. And I hear this way too much. there is this culture in in behavioral health care and within people that are struggling where you know someone might view marijuana right as not that bad where they might view alcohol as not that bad and they might you know be doing heroin and they say if I could just put the heroin down and drink like a gentleman everything's going to be okay and it drives me nuts because I'm convinced that it's not like what it's not what the substance is it's why right like why is this person behaving the way that they're behaving and to what lengths are they willing to

go to get numb you know and avoid the the world that they're living in so I'm I'm happy you said that because I think there's a lot of parents out there that might have someone in their life 14 15 18 20 years old oh it's just marijuana right and and that's for me never a good start to the story if there's not a willingness to open their mind up to like hey this is this is more than just my son is smoking too much pot there's some real I think the understanding when I was in my initial group with Karen treatment and seeing that if my son was doing triple C before he got to oxies and then heroin if he was doing triple C and um and weed to get to that place, and then suddenly there's a parent across the room whose child has a sex addiction and another parent, of course,

who has a child that has an issue with alcohol, it was the first time where I started to understand it really is, it's not about the substance. There's a much deeper issue here of a portal that needs to be filled. And that was the beginning of my education to it all. Yeah. So you're on this journey,

And obviously, you know, there's many, there's many treatment stays and I'm going to accelerate it a little bit because I want to get into, you know, some of your experience, which I think is going to be most valuable and whether or not the tears come. We'll see. But I'm just so grateful that you're here. So Nick comes into our life, obviously, at release recovery on the, on the transitional living side of the house. He moves in. And I got to tell you, you know, this is when I was still very much involved in direct. client care and I was living at or at the house daily and Nick the thing that I will always remember about him is that smile like that truly the first time I saw I said this kid is special you know and that was our experience for the time he stayed with us and you mentioned um to me and to us at the beginning is that we we kept him alive what do you what do you remember most about Nick when he was when he was sober and when he was kind of thriving well I I mean he he ruled the room and he and I mean look I know I want to talk about Nick before he he was navigating through this process of trying to stay sober but

release was a highlight for all of us released up in Yorktown Heights because he liked the people that were in the house. He loved his room. And I'll never forget when he relapsed and then relapsed at least 20 more times. And I remember by like the 15th time him turning to me and saying, I never should have left release. He didn't say that about any other sober house.

And it was. It was a great team. It was a great, it really was. the communal and nurturing effort was wonderful. And I'm sure it still is. I haven't been there in a while, but I'm sure it still stands out. And we were in some real marginalized sober homes after that.

But as far as Nick, I mean, Nick, he was, we called him a triple threat, which is, you know, he was a really fine actor. I'm not saying it because he was our son. But he really would get every audition. He went out for a level of success with law and order, like a lot of kids in this city. And just incredibly sensitive and compassionate to his friends and his cousins' concerns and issues and a great listener. But, and unfortunately, you know, a level of sexual identity when he started realizing that he was gay and wasn't comfortable with male energy when the dating age started.

and I think what had issues with anxiety and depression, and we waited as long as we could to have him go on any kind of meds who really tried to keep it a more natural approach to opening him up to using those energies, those anxious energies, to work in his favor, and acting really certainly helped getting out of his skin. But I think I first saw the issue is when I ransacked his room for the first time, when I came home smelling weed, which was a mistake. I've of course as you know we've we've since become responsive and not reactive and I

turned to him when I found his stash and I told him how I felt about it when is this app this is when this is this is 14 going on 15 yeah yeah I found his stash and I said I understand you needing to get out of your head I know I can tell that you're despondent these days and I didn't use those words but I said I could tell that you're down and but this is not going to help I've seen this pull a lot of people down and he was so articulate he said, Dad, I know you want me to get the same

rush from acting or I know that you see me get the same rush from acting and how calming it is but I get the same feeling when I smoke weed and I don't have to learn a script that thick and I said, that's a crutch and I said I really hope that you don't keep going in that direction and unfortunately he changed his crowd. He quit acting and changed his crowd and went with hanging with people that were in

pain like him. Yeah, being a parent is the hardest thing in the world, especially with someone. I mean, like I always say one of the lines I always use is you're not, you're not going to get your son or daughter drunk and you're not going to get them sober. You're just not that powerful, right? Like you, there's no words. If you had the words, if we had the words to give you, we would have given them to you in that moment and you guys would have, you know, went on your Mary way. But unfortunately, you know, Nick's honesty around around that is really lacking in a lot of a lot of folks that find themselves, you know, addicted to, addicted to drugs or compulsive behaviors or whatever it might be. And it's funny. It's maybe not funny, but it's when I think of Nick,

you know, in my professional career, he gave me, he gave me an experience that I'll never forget because as you mentioned he's gay and he was very happy to be uh he was very proudly gay is what I will say and we loved him for that and we empowered him with his sexuality and there was one moment where you know we're running an all male transitional living and we we found Nick in bed with a with a guy and and you know in that moment for me you know like he he opened my eyes up to that you know and and relationships and love and sex is a is another thing in recovery that you know we try to pay attention to um i think there's some therapy and some bullshit language that we use around no relationships in the first year and people places and things and you know i i i believe

that everyone's you know deserving of their experience but after that nick was able to really sit down with us and and have an open conversation about what was going on and i just i always appreciated that about him. It wasn't always what we wanted to hear, most certainly, but he was, for the most part, I mean, he lied, but for the most part, he was honest, and he almost used that to his advantage. You know, like, he would stare right through you.

I remember him, you know, he pushed you guys. And more so than, I think because when heroin eventually became, and meth became the drug of choice, if I can just say, it was the demon that would rule his personality and he became very guarded and he wouldn't be his sort of you know character and flamboyant self so you you certainly saw him at a time where he was

staying staying sober and and you know just like seeing how far he could push you guys but also being charismatic and i'm glad that we experienced that with you all at you know at at the yorktown heights house um i remember you guys coming up and I remember I believe that part of my drug today is I believe everyone has a chance. Yeah.

When I lose hope is when I retire from behavioral health care. I truly believe that everyone has a shot. We just don't know who who's going to get it and who's not so we have to throw everything in our arsenal at every case and we did that with Nick you know and the family.

Yeah, yeah. And of course what's amazing and sad at the same time is you know being able to get into nick's phone after he died and and just seeing how yes he was struggling and he knew and he was a deep 12 steper like his knowledge of the 12 steps and he inspired me um in describing the epiphanies that he that he felt in the 12 steps but um and knowing that he's going to wake up feeling like he's got to go to the street but his community and and and his... So I want to hold the phone

because I'm going to go on order here. Okay. So he leaves release and then, you know, you guys have this pretty positive experience. He maintains sobriety for a little bit longer.

Well, no, not really. I mean, I think that he, you allowed him to come home for the first time at the holidays. Right, right, right. I don't think he was in, I think he was in treatment.

And it went well. And then you, felt okay let's try New Year's Eve and he had been with you all like maybe about six months and you had done these great trips with him and and it was just

wonderful and you create a schedule with him you got him back in school you got his GED but then that second trip home he smoked some weed behind our back and you also had that monitor

where... So we're like, yeah. Yeah. And he failed it, and you were going to give him a chance. And, of course, he said, F this, I'm not going back. And he bolted, and then understandably so, you guys said, you know, can't come back here right now, maybe in the future. And then that started the trail of many, many relapses in the street.

I'm getting ahead. But yeah, that's... And then, like I said, a year and a half later, out of all the places, you said, I never should have left that place. Right. Well, that's a hard part of our job. And anyone who works in behavioral health care is you never know, you know, I'm a believer that the old 28-day treatment system is a little broken. I believe that we need to start exposing people in early recovery to the real world pretty quickly. And that can be through meetings or even just taking them to the gym or whatever else it might be.

And that's a lot of what we do. And so, yeah, I mean, like going home on a pass for Thanksgiving and then, okay, you've earned this right to go home for for new years. We never, you know, there's a risk involved in all that that we're willing to take because that's that that exposure is going to need to happen at some point. We can't keep people locked up forever. That's just not a reality of of what we do. Yeah. And so and so that's probably what? That's pre-COVID.

Is that like the end of that? That's probably New Year's into 2020. No, that was actually into 19. The 19. Yeah. And so the next year, two years. Well, I think we kept him home for a bit. Right.

To actually, actually, he started school with you. You were getting him to put the transportation together, but he didn't finish. So that in, so in 19, the goal was you can live home, go to a therapeutic school in this city. and get this done. But by the spring, he was snorting heroin. And he overdosed at one point in our apartment. Luckily, a girl that was with him had Narcan, brought him back.

It was a bad scene. There were kids all over the apartment. We didn't lose any of them, but... Was it a bad batch or what you don't know? I don't know. He told me that there were two different types of bags, two different colors, and the dealer recommended this other one to him. I just think it was, I don't know if it was early on. He did too much or whatever, but he passed down. That sounds about right when the fentanyl started to make its way into the...

I never once thought that that was fentanyl laced. I could be wrong. Right. And we didn't do any toxicology. He certainly went, he went to, a Presbyterian mental hospital up in... You were home or you weren't? No, I was at work. We both were at work, and we were called from the hospital. And I, in my ignorance, felt, okay, he tried it.

He went as far as heroin. Now he knows. He cheated death. He came out of a 17-day program, did well in school for a bit, but by that summer he's now shooting up. And then we knew we had to get him out of New York. And he went to Huntington Beach. How did you find out that he was shooting up?

I was actually upstate on a gig, and my wife called me and said, he's not coming home. So I checked my phone, and there he was on the Upper East Side, East Harlem, at that underpass where there's sort of a whole little city. And he was watching me also. So as soon as I start driving down, he starts going home. And I get home, and he's hallucinating in his bedroom. And my wife is white, and I said, how do you know he's shooting? She said, because I saw his arms. And we got him right on a flight to a recommended outpatient, inpatient program, Huntington Beach.

He left immediately and was on the beach for a week. And one thing I'll say about that, now we started getting better sober coaches. And one lesson I learned on that was he has his phone. call you every morning. It's just three phrases you must say. One, are you safe? Yes. Do you have a phone number on you in case something happens? Yes. Call us when you're ready to go back to treatment. Click. And so I remember for the first three days, Karen couldn't, she couldn't mouth it because she wanted to bring more in. Are you hungry? And we were told not to bring those excessive peripheral questions up and I'll remember the first three days as I'm as I got to the

third one call me when you're ready to go back to treatment and as I'm and I have to hang up at that point as I'm about to hang up it was always argue you know and then cursing at me and you feel like it being broken in half as a parent I never thought then I had a heart attack and I had a heart attack but you know I'm fine now. But then by the 10th day, I think it was seven or 10 days out there, I got

to the third question and he said, yeah, I'm ready. And that was a big lesson in boundaries for us. And he went, we then got him to, I think, Nashville and then I think there was North Carolina. And as you know, you know, as soon as he relapses, he's lasting maybe

a month to two months in each place and he's going to the street. Yeah, I think it's important to just, I mean, look, Obviously, if you're a parent and you're listening to this, you might say treatment doesn't work. You might say, why didn't you just give up? But I would challenge that with you're not going to give up if someone has cancer. You're not going to give up if someone has heart disease.

You're not going to give up if someone has, you know, diabetes. And those are all things that come back, right? And so as parents, it sounds like you were learning and doing the best you possibly could to at this point keep your son alive. I mean, like, that's... I think that after my heart attack, I realized that I can no longer make this about me. It has nothing to do.

Do you think the heart attack was because of Nick? Well, I think that my father had a heart attack, my uncle had a heart attack. So there is some heredity there. And I'm in, was in, and is, am in much better shape than either of them, you know. But I do think, I'm, first of all, my stress hormones were sky high.

And also, you know, we were going into our retirement funds, and that was stressful too, you know. And also getting him off the street and seeing him, as you know, heroin's a whole other level compared to weed and pills as far as just how the demon rears its ugly head and the appearance of the person. I didn't recognize him anymore. and it got me it got it may have happened otherwise but it probably wouldn't have but you know my cardiologist said you know in your case it looked like stress hormones did you in even knowing your heredity but what it changed me in I can't make it about me anymore I can't talk about it I can't well in some ways it has to be about you like you have to take care of yourself or you're not going to be available literally not going to be alive to

to be available to anyone. But that's not what I mean. And I agree with that. I became that. But what I'm talking about is I, like I said before, I had no patience for people in my life with a substance use disorder. You know, I thought, where's your self-control, you know? Sound like my dad.

Yeah. And you know what? Nick was in my life to teach me compassion. I still say it. And sometimes when I hear him talk to me, he's saying that. I was in your life to treat you how to become compassionate. But I think what happened was when I say not make it about myself, I was that parent because he and I were so close

and we had such a great bond where I would feel, how dare you do this to our relationship? And at that point, I learned through a wonderful sober coach, stop making it about how it's making you feel. It's a disease. It's not about you. And you're in his life not to keep. him alive. Not much more than that. And that changed me. I took nothing personally. We talked

before about the energies that infiltrate your vessel. I was able to assess every energy coming from him because, you know, he's pushing my buttons. You go visit him at parent weekend and he just wants to rile you up. Well, we know what to say. You know, I've been Nick in that situation. and the truth is that the truth about substance use disorder addiction is that the identified patients so me or Nick or whoever it might be knows exactly what to say

exactly what to say to get what they want so if you're my dad I know how to break you and unless you've done a ton of work it's gonna work you're gonna give me the fifth you're going to I mean the shit I used to tell my parents to get another $20 or $40 was actually insane if you think about the stories that I would like make it's not real life but they would concede and believe me because they just hoped that this next thing that they did was going to be the thing that that saved me and we all know it doesn't really work like that

You know, one of the biggest lessons I learned was when you react to your child, and I was somewhat reactive, you know, like most parents, you're going to get riled up, you're going to yell, but when you react to your child, you're giving them a feeling that is similar to an endorphin rush. It may even be an endorphin rush. So I was, when I would battle him on this rather than shift, down and keep it on the eyes. I'm not comfortable with this conversation. I'd like to resume this conversation in 10 minutes when I think about, but of course in early days, I'm, how dare you say that? You're my son, you know, when I realized that it was actually fueling him, because this is how my dad is loving me now, and this is all I can get. So I'm going to take it, but I'm going to get more of it. And even Karen was the same way, just triggering. When I realize the art of shifting then i've seen you guys do it i remember being at the house and you guys going from like this you know uh we're team players and then something happened and i because you guys

were trained at that point i saw the way you shifted down you went into that professional mode of we don't need to show this person that we are triggered by what they just said or did and it was nick one time too well it's the hardest thing and whenever someone comes to me and they say they want to work in recovery I just say, look, there's, I commend you, I applaud you. I would challenge you to go try every other job that is available to you and then come back to me and tell me you really want to work in recovery. And if you decide that you want to do this work, then I'll help you and I'll teach you. And I'll share some of my experience, which is that fighting never works.

It just doesn't. I mean, early in my career, I used to rip the covers off the guys and say it's time to get up and play the national anthem. It's, you know, like it's because I thought we were going to kind of like, That's what worked for me, you know, like I'm a total jock and the structure and this thing worked for me, but that does not work with most of our worlds. And there was. There was a shift in me and that shift continues to happen. And I think people in early recovery just want to be hugged. They want to be loved. They want to be seen. You know, they want to be told that it's going to be okay. They want to feel safe because a lot of these folks have trauma and even just the drug use is traumatic. You know, and so they just, They want to feel loved. And I think Nick knew he was loved. I mean, he did.

I know we're getting ahead of ourself, and we can come elaborate more, but you said a couple of things there, is that he missed my wife and I so much because we're such a close family and the idea that he couldn't come back home. And then the one time where he actually, he was at a sober house in Boston,

and he was triggered, and he went to a meeting, and he created a scene, and he was sober. He was already sober for a couple of months, and he got on a train, and we had to say to him, get off at the next stop. You need to spend a little more time at this place. We can only listen to your therapist and what she is advising, and, you know, that was a rough one. And that happened more than once where we had to say to him, turn around and go back. And a lot of parents,

when we were at Family Day at certain sober houses, would talk about other parents that were in there prior that took the kid back prematurely, and it was a disaster. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of this is experience. So Nick goes through all these treatments, and then we get,

We get to, I want to talk about the last 24 hours of his life. So you've been open about the last conversation that you had with Nick. Can you take me through your last interaction with him and then getting the phone call to the best of your ability? Sure. Well, you know, we would go see Nick maybe every 10 days, wherever he was, whether it be impatient or soberly. and he was living in just outside of Boston and struggling but it was a great team and it was a

really amazing mix of clients too you had a type personality is you had a transgender kid there and other kids who were gay but there was something about this mix that really worked for him and now we're going on three months sober and four months sober And by month five, we go visit, and there's my son. He's back. He looks handsome, you know. He's back into fashion, you know. And, you know, he's, you could tell he's tense because he's holding on, but he's positive

about his team. He's positive about his fellowship. He's positive about his sponsor. And he said, I'm ready to go back to school, get my social worker license, and specialize He wanted to work in the field. Yeah, he wanted to specialize in intake, and he wanted to be a liaison for the LGBTQ community, because he actually said this.

He said, when those kids come to the door, I tell they're afraid that they're going to get beat up or ostracized. And that's also when I said, there he is, he's back, you know. He's 10 times smarter than me when I was at that age. He was 20 at the time. So I said, great, let's do it. they're asking that you stay here for six more months but we can get it started somehow it was a great meeting then he's agitated two weeks after that and like I said he goes into a meeting and he says

you're stealing my parents money I'm not getting anywhere with this I'm sober for this long I shouldn't have to stay here and they're saying six six more months please you know and so we said six more months and that's when he took the one time when he took the train towards us and so we then said at the advice of his therapist if you need to leave you need to find a sober house you need to find a city that we will agree to and you need to have a sponsor in place and he immediately found he wanted to go back to new haven because he did turnbridge there and he saw a level of success even though we relapsed at stage three saw a level of success of success with Turnbridge.

Yeah, I really... Yeah, it's awesome. New people there, friends there. And we were all for it because Turnbridge did, was a big turnaround for him. Well, and if he's putting in the work, I mean, that's... Once you start to see that work, you want to, like, pour gasoline on it and say, come out, yeah, great, you're setting this up, you're doing it, wonderful. And we still didn't know if it was the right move.

And of course, you never know. Yeah, therapist said, we'd love for him to finish here because we're on to something. but let him create his life now, you know. And being 20 years old at that point. So he immediately found a sober house, found a sponsor, started being involved with his fellowship. He's having a tough time, but our conversations are good and positive,

and I'm happy with where it's going. Is it daily communication at this point, or is it? No, not really. I think at that point he was talking to Karen a bit more than me. You know, sometimes he would gravitate towards me, sometimes to Karen. And if our conversations were kind of short, I would feel, okay, he's into his mom right now. It's fine, you know. I also think that he, because I cleaned up my life so heavily by that point because of my illness,

that he felt he actually said to me when he was on the train, you can keep me clean, Dad. I know your lifestyle, and when I said to him, I don't have the tools to keep you sober, turn around. And he resented me for that. So he was talking to Karen a bit more at that point. Why? I don't know. Maybe they were more alike. My wife had her struggles also. And so there was a connection there, you know. But I was fine with that. I knew he would come around. so we then go visit him in late June of 2021 and he's rattled and he's there's something wrong he's hating everybody you know he's he's cynical he's fidgeting and I've said what's going on

you know I feel like something's bothering you know and he's battling me now for bringing that up and he admitted he said in his words I couldn't sleep so I took some NyQuil you know It wasn't the case, I found out later. And that meeting didn't go very well. It was short, and he told me I have to grow a pair of balls when I come see him. You know, but I knew where that was coming from, and I felt, okay, I got to back off now and just let him know I'm concerned, but not let this go any further. Dropped him off at his house, and I'll never forget.

Karen took the back seat because he wanted to go shotgun. He's trying to create a bond. with me. I'm smiling at him and letting him know. Talk to your sober house manager, talk to your your sponsor, because I can tell that you're upset about something. And he looked at me and his eyes cleared up and he said, I'm sorry, Dad. And he ran into the house. And I ran after him and I said, you're not leaving him without a hug. And he fell into my arms. he melt into my arms, but then I heard him say, oh, fuck this, and he got out and got back in the house.

And at that point, I knew, I knew where his head was, and I was glad that we had that physical connection and that, you know, he came out for a minute. And on the new record, by the way, which I hope we talk about, there's a song called You Came Out for Me, which is all about that car shotgun riding with me scene. That was the last thing he said to me.

we had maybe one or two correspondence and the next phone call was from his sober house managers saying we lost him and it was 4th of July weekend so the coroner said you're not going to do anything for

four days now you know so don't come here we really can't give you much information or release anything everyone's on vacation so in that time I was able to get into his phone but so you have this powerful interaction.

Yeah. Do you, is there an energy inside of you that feels like this might be the last time I see my son? Does that thought cross your mind? No. But I had been preparing myself for this eventuality. A lot of parents, I think, do that. But you cannot prepare yourself at all.

You think, all right, I think about it every other day that he may not make it. You can't prepare yourself. But no, I just felt, okay, we're in trouble for a bit here. And I almost certainly alerted the house manager. No, no, no, I didn't. Actually, he said, don't tell them anything. And I said, I won't, but you have to. You have to let them know that you did take some NyQuil and open your portal

and you're having a hard time with it. Promise me that you will let them know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know. And that's when he, that's when he got... bolted out of the car. And who, so is it a week later that you get the call? Yeah. Yeah, so who?

I love her a week later. Who gets that call? I mean, that's obviously a parent's worst nightmare. Yeah, we were. I appreciate the trance or the openness to, oh, you got it. I mean, I know it's not easy, but the phone rings and you answered. Does your wife Karen answer or?

No, Karen answered and put the phone on speaker. And, yeah, you got those words. we lost him. And I'm thinking, what does that mean you lost him? He bolted, and the guy started getting weepy. He said, no, we lost him. And, uh, and, you know, if you feel a level of futility, you feel like, man, all that, all five years of that, and this has to happen. But then you're going to shock and then you're, you know, you're trying to make arrangements and you, of course, you have to then talk to the detective. I want to know everything. I want to know. I want to know, what his state he was in, where he was, what his clothes were like, what did you find,

and she was forthcoming. You wanted to know that information. Yeah, I wanted to know exactly what the scene was like, because I couldn't be there for four days. And what I think is important is when we were able to go to the sober house, first we got his ashes. and we went to the sober house and they had put his clothes in a pile and I wanted to see his bedroom as I never gone upstairs at that he wasn't there for very long I wanted to see exactly where he died I wanted to lay in that bed I wanted to feel it and then I wanted to get out of there with his phone and see exactly what happened can I tell you about my interaction with

the woman that he went to the street with. Of course. So I'm getting a bit of ahead of myself. Four days was like a year waiting to be able to go from, we were at our upstate house at the time and we had to head to New Haven. So they say don't come. I mean four days, like there's no reason to come. No. It was a weekend. It was a July 4th weekend. So nothing is going to, he said, you know, you really can't see you. And we didn't want to. see the body. So it was four days of that, but

when I finally, so I go on Facebook and I go to his page. He didn't want me to see any social media, but he went on Facebook because he could use Facebook Messenger. Apparently a lot of young kids felt that's a good way

to sort of keep it kind of private, you know. But he had a page that didn't have much on it, but I did notice that there was a photo of him and a woman that had recently been posted before he died and I thought

oh so this may be the last situation in his life maybe she knows what happened here or knows something about him and I wrote to her on Facebook Messenger and I said I see that you posted a photo

or Nick posted a photo of you we don't know each other I'm Nick's dad I don't know if you know but we lost him three days ago and she She said, I didn't know. I'm so sorry to hear that.

I said, did he seem in a certain place? And she said, no, he seemed fine. Just, you know, trying hard to keep it together. I said, well, thanks. I appreciate that. And she said, I had spent some time with him. So if you get his phone, and if there are photos of us in there, could you please send them to me?

Here's my cell number. I didn't think anything of it. So I get the phone. and I look at the whole pathology of the last 48 hour or pretty much, well, maybe like five days of his life and she is

someone he knew from Turnbridge and she was in meetings with him and they both were just having a bad week and the text went on come to my place. She was now living outside of his sober house

and they dropped some acid and that really was open the portal and then she had some alcohol and now she's got company and I see he has other texts that are so positive he's speaking at meetings now you know and he's organizing meetings

it's a double life yeah and there was this young kid who was so impressed with him wrote to him and said thanks for giving me your number. You really resonated in what you were talking about today and the fact that you're so comfortable being gay. And Nick said, well, you resonated with me because you found some way to keep it together. You work out and you're in the gym. And the guy said, well, maybe we can help each other because I want to come out and, you know, I can help you to get in shape. And now he's writing to his girlfriends, Nick, saying, I like this guy.

And there was a light there. And then the other texts were, hey, Nick, come over. Let's, you know, I got a little more of this. And then I think by the fifth night, she said, I'm going to the street. And he said, I want to go. And she said, I don't know. But you can't use it my place. And he said, all right.

And so they went to the street and they copped. And she sent him home back to his sober house. And he snorted. it was, the detective told me it was a minus, no, I'm sorry, the coroner told me it was a minuscule amount which is why he had the wherewithal to put the baggie back in his wallet and deep away from his roommate to see and put himself to bed because sometimes it takes you out immediately when you go unconscious. And so now there's, hey Nick, this didn't work for me. I'm wasted my money. I'm not going to do this anymore.

Nick, hour later, Nick, hour later, Nick, exclamation point. So, he's gone. I then call her and say, hey, you wanted me to call you about, if I found any photos. I want you to know that I know that you were with him. Don't hang up on me. I don't blame you. I understand this disease. Yes, you did know that he was six months sober.

And I wish that you walked away and didn't bring him to this dealer. I know that he knew that you were using and I wish that he maybe tried to get you some help. So it works both ways. That's an interesting thing because a lot of times parents want to blame. Oh, Zach, man. I was keeping it in, man. I know, but there was something inside of you and the work that you had done was really coming to the surface there. And I don't blame parents that want to blame.

because when you lose someone that close to you and I've experienced unfortunately a lot of death in this work that I do and I've seen parents react in a ton of different ways and you know I've been blamed well after someone has moved on from our care for something that you know like there's just any any ability to point a finger so I just

I don't know where this girl is today but you might have saved her life you know because if she you know I at that point even Nick had said to me, how did you get so pro? Because I had a great sober coach at that point. I hadn't gotten certified yet. And I just, we were at a point where we totally understood compassion and love with boundaries. And when we were able to dismantle the safety net, he turned to his community. And that was part of those six months. He realized my parents are not, they're not

catching me anymore. Emotionally we were, but we knew when to cut it off. We knew when to ship down, not getting riled up anymore. He finally turned to his community. It was six months of sobriety. But I said to her, I understand the disease, and then she came back with, who am I to tell someone not to use? I said, all I ask is that if this happens again, that you err on the side of salvation and try to save the next person, and she started crying, And she said, I don't like the way I'm feeling I have to get off the phone. And that was it. You know, and I have to admit that I did give the cop her information.

And they eventually called back and said, she's not talking. She's not turning in the dealer. And we really can't go after a dealer that we know nothing about. So I want to ask you something that's, I would use controversial as the word. And the only reason I'm going to ask you is because. I've had parents tell this to me time and time again when they lose someone, and for your case it was five years of this.

Is there any sense of relief, knowing that your son is now hopefully resting peacefully? Do you believe in that? Life is serene. Life is serene. Compared to, when you're spending five years chasing your kid around the country, either getting them off the street or getting them to a treatment center or a sober living, we're not built for that. We're not programmed to be that

way with our children. And so it was so unnerving and just so foreign that to be back to a semblance of peace, it, I can't say it feels good, but you certainly like that you're feeling you're becoming healthy again physically and mentally that's as far as I can go with that because you know look I say I had 15 incredible years with him

and five difficult but I wouldn't change it trade it for anything I would still be in the trenches with him but yes he struggled he struggled he was so

uncomfortable with himself. And like I'll never forget when he would, you know, he, when he did downtown theater, which was not children's theater. It was like a mid-level before you know, off-Broadway things. And we're revival stuff.

I mean, he would shower him with with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, get me out of here. It's like he didn't believe that he was all that. And you think what did we not say as parents because he could not have given him the accolades when he deserved it more than we did, you know?

Well, parents also tend to believe that they are the final say on what their kids are going to turn out like and that's just not the truth. I mean, your child's going to school, your child is interacting with friends and teachers and who the hell knows, you know, what was ingrained into him

or other kids from the people. I mean, how many times do we hear about someone who you know gets taken advantage of in a church I mean this world is so sick in so many ways but there are kids that are violated or do have a level of trauma that don't go to substance use and like yourself and Nick

it was like a perfect cocktail or a perfect bio makeup for it all to be so detrimental and I feel sorry for him in that way that he had to deal with that because as you know I'll never forget the one day and I do want to get back to the outcome of my interaction with this woman I think it's important but I'll never forget when I dropped Nick off at impatient after he relapsed on heroin and meth and it was early days of heroin actually and he said

he said, I can't, he said I, with weed and pills, I wake up the next morning, I just feel bad. I just feel like I'm hung over. I feel like I'm a thousand pounds. I'm angry. But with heroin, I wake up the next morning, and there's an angel tapping me on the shoulder asking me to come back. And it feels so nurturing because she's reminding. me that I felt everything at 100% and everything was warm and the colors were heightened. And I can't stop thinking about it.

And then he said, I hate that I've become this person. But then meanwhile, when it was weed and pills, it was like they had a clan, he and his friends. Like, we're doing this together. We have our own little world where we like getting high together. It starts that way with everyone. It is, I mean, I had many years where my drinking and drugging wasn't just it was a blast I mean a full stop right there I mean I had so much fun

until it became until I became dependent my mind my body my soul became dependent on that feeling and I would do anything to anyone to put the next one in me yeah you know and that's a feeling that only the people that have felt that way and identify with what I just said will understand. Of course. And so I want you to go into this final interaction. And then we got to move into how you, how we got here and how we are talking and and give a little hope here.

Yeah. Yeah. And here's the last darkness. And I have to say it because of how it, how I reacted to it. So we lose Nick. I go off social media, you know, we're now recovering in our own way. And I would say we lost them in July.

By October, I decide to go on his Facebook page, which I didn't legacy it or anything at that point. And I see that photo again, and I think, man, she didn't even pull that down, you know. And I see, I'll always love you, Nick. I miss you. And now cut to February the next year. year. I'm having a rough day. I decide to go on that page again. And there's, I'll always love you, Nick. I miss you. And I see right under it. And now you are together. So I write to that person on Facebook Messenger. And I say, you know, I'm the father of the young adult who died is what this woman's saying, is what you're saying that I think it is. And she said, yeah, we lost her two months ago in the same situation.

I cried for her as the way I cried for him. But that was a big weekend of closure for some reason. Not that I felt like, all right, now she's gone. She got hers. But somehow it was a cap on that time. And I was able to, I don't know, I was able. Did you talk to her parents? No.

No, no. And then her family wiped every bit of social media. because I did check again months later. It just, it was the beginning of seeing a bit of light or something saying, all right, they're together. Let's move on. And that's okay. You don't have to apologize for the way it makes you feel,

and that's okay. You know, like, if it was a bit of closure, I mean, that's the way life goes. We find closure in a variety of ways. You think that you have, it's funny, I'm being hypocritical now. You think that you have a level of, closure and you think, all right, that's my old life. I'm getting past it. And I don't want to

really dwell on, I don't want this to be a therapy session for a parent who lost a child. I wanted to also talk about what worked. But I mean, it's amazing that a month later, you're right back where you were. But that's my life. And that's why I have to constantly assess what is wonderful in the moment. And like right now, this moment is educational and I'm glad that I'm around everybody but that's my every hour I have to reassess my energies of what is right and wrong in my life right now and for the most part it's very right and everything else are just hallucinations and memories you look you look great and you sound great I mean you know and I love you very much and I appreciate you being here so rich here my friend to lighten it up a little bit is

an amazing musician with extreme talent, not just musically, but the ability to put on shows, et cetera, he's a member of the Fab Fo, which is a Beatles tribute band that sells out every arena they go to.

Are you guys still playing or no? Well, we're semi-retired. We do maybe like four or five gigs. It's the best. I've been in several of his shows, and it's just a party. If you like the Beatles and you have an opportunity,

check it out. So we're not talking about, hey, this guy's playing the local pub on a Saturday, even though you might. but I love, I grew up in the pubs playing pubs. So we, you know, started this foundation and we were picking up some steam and started to raise some money. And for me personally, I couldn't shake the memory of Nick. I couldn't shake the memory of rich and your soul and your energy.

And so when we decided that we wanted to really hone in on this community that was, you know, second to or right next to the recovery community was so. important to Nick, which is the the LGBTQIA plus community, we called you or emailed and said, hey, we'd like to discuss, call it an opportunity, a partnership, however you want to call it, and you took our call. And it's always heart-wrenching or scary to talk to a parent who has lost a child and say, hey, we want to honor your child because you don't know how they're going to react. They could hang up on you. They could say, this is the most touching thing. I think what you said is we'll think about it, but why did you say yes? Because I felt like that last conversation with him when he was sober was exactly about this, was being a light for intake

for the LGBTQ community, which is he was, which he was a part of. And why did he go into that so deeply and articulately and then he dies two weeks later and then you guys call me with what we can do and then you especially your memory of his because out of everyone you knew him um i think that um todd wasn't in where nick was with the two times he was at but anyway but the fact that you knew him and when i would talk about nick's personality you knew exactly why this had to happen knowing what he was all about i couldn't say no And yeah, we thought we, you know, my wife and I are a team. We had to think about it.

Of course, my wife is, you know, it's, is it more difficult for her than it is for me? No. But, you know, her process is very different. So she needs a minute to sit with, with everything. Her emotions are always on her sleeve, understandably so. But it, how could we say no when you, A, knew him and B, we had had this conversation about intake? And the fact that then we all started looking at stats, and people would say to me, well, why does that have to be an LGBTQ foundation? And I say, well, you're right, there are plenty of cisgender foundations out there. There are plenty of other type of foundations. This is part of a story of what our son was about to establish in his life. But there's a 20% higher death rate in the LGBTQ community compared to heterosexual. kids. That alone. They're not, they're running away from treatment. Their parents drop them off and they

run away. And other heterosexual kids will also run away, but they're running away for a different reason. You know, they're running away, like I said before, because they feel I'm so different. I will not be accepted here. No comfort zone at all for me here. And what you've established with Todd and the whole cast and crew out there is this incredible I wouldn't say it's a wing but it's an incredible program that goes beyond just treatment

it's all about inclusion and the education for the parents who are confused by everything from addiction substance use disorder and their child's sexuality and how that could just be like a volcano

for the parent's mind and there are people specializing in these parent weekends for this community. Yeah, so the long and short of this is, and I could talk to you for hours, is we've created, there's a program at care and treatment centers that specializes or is specific to this community that Nick was a part of.

Our goal and our mission here between me and Rich and the Relief Foundation and our team and the event he puts on an additional fundraising that we do throughout the year, as part of the bigger, you know, release foundation is that if someone from that community calls us and they cannot afford to get treatment, we can pretty much guarantee that we're going to get them not just treatment, but really good care. And since the creation of this fund in Nick's memory, we have, I don't have the exact numbers, but we've given out tons of scholarship dollars,

There's tons of scholarships. We've honored scholarship recipients at our gala who, you know, so you get it. We are honoring Nick in a substantial way. And our signature event is January 23rd of 2025 at Ciney Winery, which is an awesome venue if you're in New York City on the West Side Highway. And Rich is the musical director. He gets together. So give me a couple minutes on this event.

tell me your cliff notes. We got to sell tickets. We got to get out there. And Nick's name, man. In Nick's name and Nick's memory. Yeah, the Nick Pagano, LGBTQIA plus scholarship for recovery event. City Winery, January 23rd. City Winery is known as more of a singer-songwriter venue.

So I tend to lean a bit more towards that type of artist. I try to keep it a mix of community. LGBTQ community artists and also some artists who are sober and some artists that are just very confessional and have a body of work that can relate to what the human condition. Or then we have someone who's just fun, like Kate Pearson, the last couple of years coming in and playing some B-52 songs. And I put together a house band that can turn on a dime. And it's become a New York event.

I get more mail regarding this show and this event than anything else I do. People just feeling like, I'm glad I'm down for the cause, but there's nothing like this in New York. It's an incredible mix of artists, the energy and the choice of music, because I really do push artists to dig deep into their catalog and find something. We actually call it, although it's loosely based on the original term, which was deep emotion and bright light. try to pick a song that is deep emotion, try to pick a song that has a bright light, so you'll get something real sort of heartfelt, and then something that could be more fun. So there's a wonderful color mix of the night. People are now calling whatever they want, and I'm fine with that.

But we have a great lineup so far, and we're still adding to it, but right now we have Betty Levitt, Hank Azaria, Martha Wainwright, cast members of Dead Outlaw, this off-Broadway show that was super successful going to Broadway. next year. Betty, Teddy Thompson, Anna Egg, Willie Nile, Martha Redbone, Bobby Hardin, Salsa representing Washington Heights, and myself, Rich Pagano. It's a long night, be prepared to stay. We also have a very short auction segment. My wife, Karen Marks, is a gallery director with Howard Greenberg Galleries. And she goes into her archives and donates some rock and roll photography.

Those always go quick. Those are hot. Oh, this year we have incredible, an incredible collection. We got a couple in our bathroom here. And your point about it being long, I will second that. And I will say this because I love you on I'm honest. I had a moment, I think last year where we were maybe two, two and a half hours into it. And I was waiting for the, who's from the B-52s?

Kay Pearson. Yeah, Kay Pearson, because I knew we were going to get a love shack and a roam. And, like, you know, the energy in the room was going to turn on a dime. And then I had a second thought. And maybe this was from Nick or maybe this was from my sobriety or my recovery. But, like, what a gift to be able to be here and listen to music and be with you and celebrate the life of this special human being. So I don't know of long is the right word.

I think it's just, you know, it is an experience. I agree. And we are in it together. And it's a fundraiser. We're raising money. Like, I'm not going to be shy about that. If you know me, I do ask for money. I'm not because I give a shit.

And like, you know what? If you have a couple extra shekels to rub together, throw them our way, and we will put them to good use. Can I just add tickets are selling fast. I think that we always have. I think also the reason why the show goes a bit longer than usual is because in the 11th hour, there's always someone incredible who suddenly calls back and says, hey, I can be a part of this. And I can't say no.

Even the show is totally in place by them. I say, of course, yes. I don't think this year is going to be as long as last year. But I'm glad that when I looked out there last year, you know, full house. People love it. Dancing in the aisles. So that's what we're pushing and promoting here.

I want to close with something rich, and, you know, I think, like, there'll be opportunities to bring you back and dive into some of the work you're doing as a sober coach. But I would say, you know, a good portion of the listeners that dial into this every week are parents. It's just the niche of this. What do you say to, so you've been obviously very open about your sons? life. I think other folks choose to be a little bit more private, and it is a 100% personal choice.

The ability that you've had to be public about it, I know has contributed to the fight against this stigma, right? There's no shame around this as far as I'm concerned, and I think as far as you're concerned. So what are your parting words for parents who are either in the cycle right now have lost or have lost someone like you did what what has kind of worked for you other than you know trial and error I think the the turnaround for us was when we only when we realize that we cannot save him his community can save him. That's his best option.

When we, like I said, pulled away the safety net and concentrated on compassion and love, Nick took us seriously and realized my parents are not going to be giving me that endorphin rush that I look for when I can't use, or when I am using. and he turned to his community, and that was a wonderful period in our lives. And I know it didn't work out so well for us, but like I said, we kept him alive by changing our approach to his reactions for an additional 18 months. I know we'll talk about this another time, but I try to impart that on the parent groups that I do now. I love that we have cross-talk, but I try to start the groups with

the topic, this topic-based groups, and then move on into cross-talk. It tends to also diffuse the anxieties of being together. But I think that also, like I said, what also was important was deciphering the energies that are coming at me that have nothing to do with me, and also understanding the energies I do have something to do with me and fixing that about myself. I can't fix him, but I can fix what is triggering me due to this disease. And like I said, it was a great day when he looked in my eyes and said, how did you get so pro dead? I didn't have to answer that. You know, he knew. Well, I'm really, I have a lot of emotions right now. I'm remembering Nick. such a beautiful soul. I am very grateful for you and what we've been able to build together

and the lives that we've subsequently been able to help. And I'm just really fucking proud of you. I'm proud of you. Because the work that you've clearly done is not easy. I think a lot of people choose to suffer. Um, and if I have any final words for the parents, out there listening you don't you don't have to suffer it's very sad it's a horrible situation there's nothing you can do to bring nick back but um you're serious you're you're you're clearly sitting here today a change human being and i've watched it you know it's like watching someone recover um i've watched you recover in a very beautiful way so thank you we love you we will see you guys on january 23rd i am taking names i'm checking the list so buy your tickets and um again

Rich Begano. Thanks for coming out. Thank you, Zach. Thanks for having me.