The Zac Clark Show - Addiction Breaks Families, Recovery Heals: Rep. Madeleine Dean and Son Harry Cunnane’s Journey

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

Congresswoman Madeleine Dean (PA) and her son Harry Cunnane join The Zac Clark Show for a powerful conversation about their journey through Harry’s substance use disorder and the road to recovery. Drawing from their co-authored memoir, "Under Our Roof: A Son’s Battle for Recovery, a Mother’s Battle for Her Son," they share raw insights into the challenges of addiction, the resilience of family, and the importance of breaking stigma. In Congress, Rep. Dean, a member of the Bipartisan Addiction and Mental Health Taskforce, has championed initiatives to combat the opioid crisis, increase access to mental health treatment, and support families impacted by substance use. Harry, now 13 years sober, works as Vice President of Business Development at Caron, a nonprofit addiction treatment center providing evidence-based care and recovery resources. From intimate family dynamics to broader policy and legislation on a national scale, hearing a high-level public official share such a raw, personal, and painful story is a powerful reminder that substance use disorder can impact anyone, anywhere. These honest conversations not only provide hope but also let families know they’re not alone. They shine a light on the resources available and offer a path forward for those who might not know where to turn. Please tune in to hear their inspiring story and their efforts to transform how we address addiction and recovery. Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right. So welcome back to the Zach Clark show. I am honored. I'm grateful to be with today my good friend, Harry Canaan, who is someone that I've been on this recovery journey for a long time with. We're both Karen alumni and we work in the field together and we've helped people and we've lost people and we've been through it all together. And, uh, His mom, Congresswoman, Madeline Dean. Well, you can call me mad. Okay, mad. I'll take that. It makes my job a lot easier for the next hour or so. Yes. Who has been serving our country and her community here?

We're sitting in her office in Glenside, right, Pennsylvania? You're right. For many years. And the most important part about this dynamic duo is they are a family in recovery who are passionate about breaking down some of the same. stigma that is associated with substance use disorder, addiction, and everything that comes with that. So we're sitting in your backyard. I'm going to start with Harry. You start using at 14 years old. What does that look like? So first, Zach, I want to say, I'm just excited to be here. I've been

watching, you know, we've known each other, have been friends for a long time, and to see the growth of, you know, what you're doing excites me. You know, so we've been through a lot and I can't wait to see where you know where this goes but for me you know we're in glenside pennsylvania i grew up just a few blocks away from here and at 14 years old what using looked like looked like fun right like for me it was an escape from you know my life it was an opportunity to let loose to get away from the expectations that you know we're just existed in my household not as a you know a negative to mom my parents are incredible people they're successful people they pushed me to be the best person that i could possibly be but at 14 years old using drugs alcohol marijuana was an escape from that

you know and i remember early when i first started to use i found this this feeling of my mind went sort of clear, right? Growing up, all the anxiety, the pressure, the stuff that weighed on me as a kid. Where are you in the, you're one of three? I'm the middle. I'm the middle brothers. I have full middle child syndrome. We fit the dynamic. We fit the stereotypes well. My older brother growing up was always nicknamed Pat the perfect. And so I was not the perfect. That probably wasn't a good idea. Probably not great. He kind of is perfect, though. He is. He is. I know Pat, he's handsome. He's got some big projects. We can call him. We can give him that. He lives up to it pretty well. He lives up to it pretty well. But for me, you know, to simplify it, it was an escape from all of the pressure of just being a kid and trying to learn how to navigate life and how to grow up and how to figure out who I was. I felt like I got away from that.

But what is that for, like you're in the home. You're in this home. We're sitting. You said eight to ten blocks from where you grew up. What is that first? reach? Is it for a drink? Is it for a drug? Is it a Tuesday night? A Friday night? So the first reach is I'm on a golf course. It's called the Abington Club. It's not far from here. And it's a Friday night after school, you know, where my friends and I, we all took the bus home and we're plotting it and planning it out. And, you know, somebody's brother got a case of 40s, right? So it's malt liquor on a golf course. And truthfully, the first night I'd like it, right? Because the first night I drank, I didn't drink enough to feel it. I only felt it drank enough to sort of like feel kind of gross in my stomach hurt and it, you know, it didn't

work. But for whatever reason, even though I didn't like it, the next weekend I went back and I did drink enough to feel it. And what it felt like is, was it felt like I was a part of something. Right. You know, the anxiety of, you know, are my friends judging me? Am I cool enough? You know, all of that stuff went away and I just felt like I was a part of something. I think it's interesting because at 14 years old I remember and there's a lot of research coming out just about boys and the relationships we have and it's really hard to find that connection and then hold on to it because it can be confusing. We're supposed to be like liking girls and doing all the things that 14, 15, 16 year olds do. So that sense of community makes sense.

Mad, for you 14 years old, where are you at in your life when Harry is picking up his first strength. This is well before you're in Congress and doing such amazing leadership work that you're doing for our country today. Where are you in life at this point? Well, let me welcome you to Glenside. This is where I was born and raised, and we had the chance to raise our kids in part here and then in part just across the way. And I have to say, I'm so proud of him. But if you don't mind as a mom, I'm doggone proud of you too. Thank you. So thank you for your work. Thank you for your recovery, spreading the word, reducing stigma. The moms know. My mom knew before anyone. She could go on about that for days.

Yes, we won't. She won't do that. I knew. At least I thought I knew. At that point in my life, we were raising three young boys, middle school at this point, junior high, one in high school. And let's not forget Alex. He always gets left out. His younger brother. who's a very interesting, terrific young man. I was teaching. I had been a lawyer as a younger woman and I found that was impossible with young kids. And then I had the chance to teach for 10 years at a local university where I had attended LaSalle University. So I'm teaching. I'm teaching writing courses. And it worked really well with family because I could work the semesters, summers off, holidays so I could be around the boys and their activities. But I remember I was teaching and I was in a panic. Not that first night because obviously I wouldn't have known the first night. He covered it well. Whatever night that was that you didn't cover it so

well, it must have been just a few weeks after that. A little sick, a little sickness or a little all my friends got underages. I managed to get away, but she was sitting at home with all of their parents. Yes. So they all got called that. And underage isn't the worst like first final. I've seen some massacres. So it's, yeah, you know, so my dad was proud, you know, know, he felt like he had taught me how to run well enough to get away. It's fabulous. You can imagine my joy. Right.

Well, yeah, it could have been worse. But I had to get picked up from, you know, a corner, Acme parking lot by the golf course, you know, with a backpack on trying to act natural unsuccessfully. And we met him in the driveway that night. And this, Harry looked particularly young for his age. And he comes up our driveway and is acting silly, slurring his words. and I thought, Harry, just go to bed. I don't even want to discuss this tonight.

But it progressed. It changed after that. You know. I knew. Within, you can talk to progression. That worried me, but I also thought, heck, we were young. We drank underage. You know, there were some, I thought, some normal adolescent experimentation, but I immediately

worried. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting conversation, too, because in my, I've been working behavioral health care now for the better part of my sobriety, which is 13 years. And I'm watching now some of my friends raise kids and my brother's a little bit older. And he's got my nephew's a sophomore down at Gonzaga High School in D.C. And one of the conversation that I hear a lot is parents, do we let him drink? Do we not let him drink? Do we take all their keys and put them in the basement because it's safer than being out on a golf course? And I don't know the right answer. Like being My point is being a parent is very hard because you don't want to deprive them of the classic kind of high school experience.

But at the same time, in the world we're living in today, it's a scary, scary path. It's mighty scary. And as this went on as he got a little older and he was in high school and I now know that the experimentation and the use increased and diversified to much more serious stuff, he and I were just battling. He was a young man of the gifts you see today, and they were all receding as he got deeper into his use and deeper into his addiction, his beautiful gifts, his personality, his ability to be friends with everybody, his eagerness to be a part of school, for example, all started to fade. And I say addiction steals so many of people's gifts, and so we wound up. just in a pitch battle in our house, me trying to figure out what was going on and him, of course, covering.

And Matt, is it safe to say that I think today you get a phone call from a friend or you know what to do. You have tools, you can pass them onto Harry or you can give them some of your experience. I was pulling into your office and I was laughing because on the corner there's a life coach and therapist office right here.

Like there's more air time for help. what was your knowledge 10, 12 years ago, of addiction, substance abuse? Were you kind of flying blind? In some ways, I felt like I knew something about it. I remember my father when we were young talking about the disease of addiction, so I thought I had a leg up on the rest of the world that would just simply stigmatize it, not understand it as actually a disease. But in many ways, I was completely ignorant, and I knew that.

But what I did, and just before we started this interview, a friend of ours was in here, Kim Porter, who was a part of founding, be a part of the conversation. So my first, when I just couldn't figure out what was going on, I knew she had a son that had gone through recovery. And so I literally called her and said, can I get a cup of coffee with you? And two and a half hours later, I just told her of the episodes in our house. What were we experiencing? What was he doing?

why was he failing in school? Why were his gifts and his personality just receding? And she saw so many of the parallels. And so that was a rather inept way to try to get help. But it was helpful because she had some expertise. I mean, that right there is why this conversation is so important. The fact that you had the insight to call someone, ask for help, I always say with substance abuse.

For me, it wasn't a therapist, a doctor, psychiatrist, a psychologist that saved my... It was a bank teller. It was a bank teller because she was kind and she was compassionate and she kind of... What was that? Go ahead. I want to hear what happened. Oh, no. I mean, I walked into a bank trying to steal one of my...

steal money from my father and the bank teller knew I was on a drug run and she instead of calling the cops, she called my dad. She just... I do remember that of his story. I've never put it together, but a bank teller played a pretty key role in my... my unraveling or uncovering. Really? Yes. Oh, that's wild.

Yeah. I think I read that somewhere. But the bank teller came in touch with my mom, not with me. Well, that was, she called my dad. Rhonda, Ronda Jackson, I mean, I still in touch with her. She called my father and said, your son's here, down in Camden. You better get here in the next half hour because he's about to go, make some really poor decision.

That was August 28th of 2011, and I was like Karen two days later. Oh. what happened to us was it was election season in 2012 2012 yeah and I was running for state representative at the time and this is your first kind of I had run for state representative in a special election in the spring and I filled the seat that was Josh Shapiro's who happens to be our governor yes and so I just had a partial term and then I had to run for my own term so it's October of 2012. I'm rather frantically running for office. And literally one day, my husband says to be mad, would you pay the American Express bill? I said, you know, there's something

wrong with our account. He said, you should have plenty in there. So I said, let me just go to the bank, find out. I go to the bank, and she looks at me and she says, are you in the habit of using the ATM like a lot, like at night? I said, what are you talking about? I said, could you print out the statements? And she prints them out. She said, somebody, I think, is stealing from you. And would you like me to call the police? Would you like me to call the police? And I said, print out the statements. And I print them out. I said, where's that ATM? It's at this Wawa. Where's that one? It's at that CBS. Or I'm making it up. It was all nearby. It was all late at night. I said, what card is getting the access?

She looks it up, and she said, it's your husband's. And a couple thousand dollars were missing. And it was just before the big storm. And so I said, would you like, she said, would you like me to call the police? They said, no, don't, don't. I said something about family. I said, I went out to the car and looked at the statements and just, It's sad.

We've been there. To think a kid you would give anything to. Would be so desperate to steal from us. And the trick was, my husband puts his wallet on the back kitchen counter every night. And we all had the same pin. And so Harry would, I guess, you can tell the story better than I. What did you do? Well, first off, Harry, I mean, seeing this emotion, it's getting me.

I can't. What are you feeling right now? It's always hard. You know, I mean, we're almost 12 years after that point. And to think of where we are today is amazing. But, you know, to see the emotion, the emotion brings me back. My mom talked a little bit about how we would battle because that moment, you know, at the end where I was. found out and caught for stealing, it brings me back because that was the culmination of so much,

right, like so much pain for me in my use. So many failed attempts to stop, you know, and I'll paint the picture a little bit of, you know, what it looked like and the desperation it took to steal from my parents who would give me everything. And I would, while I was stealing from them, would go in and ask them for more money. But what it brings me back to is being in my parents' house late at night. And in the last year that I was using, I had had a daughter, Aubrey. And Aubrey and my girlfriend at the time would be upstairs sleeping, and I would be in the basement. You guys were alone.

We had moved back in. Under our roof. Under our roof. It was a perfect opportunity to plug. I don't want to spoil everything here, but they have written a book together. It's called Under Our Roof. A lot of what we're talking about and more is in there. So this conversation is inspiring to you.

Please pick up the book and we'll talk more about that later. But back to you, Harry. But it brings me back into the basement, right, where I am, I'm 22 years old. I've got a one-year-old baby. I had this vision for how I thought my life was going to go. And it was so far from it. I couldn't stop using opioids. I couldn't stop stealing.

I couldn't stop lying. I felt like I was so stuck. And I would be with my daughter, Aubrey, an infant, you know, night after night. And she was the only person that I could talk to because I was so afraid to let them know what was actually happening. So I would sort of like cry and plead with my daughter because it felt safe to. I knew I had to get this off my chest. I had to talk about it. but I got to a place where, you know, I felt like she would have been better off without me

because everything I had tried to do to stop wasn't working. And so what I would do to just try to keep this going, because this is where the deception comes in, right? The lies, the insidiousness of substance use was while I thought that my mind would tell me, well, if you just keep going, if you just get one more, then you're not going to be sick. And if you're not in withdrawal, then you can change your diaper. You can take care of her.

You can read a bedtime store. You can be present, even if you're not all the way there. So night after night, I would go after everybody went to sleep, and I would come up from the basement and grab my dad's ATM card and thought I was slick. I would cover the camera on the ATM. and um you know and it was just sad like it was it was a sad existence and so to see my mom getting emotional it pains me to think of the pain i put her through and it also brings me

back to that time where it was she was in pain i was in pain my dad my brothers my daughter my girlfriend everybody around us was in pain because of the way that i was living right this is beautiful and there's this thing that happens when we recover where sometimes the family members get forgotten because we become the heroes in this story right we become the heroes and the real heroes are the ones that stuck by us so without going any further i would imagine this is a true statement harry but your mom made very clear to tell you that she was proud of you at the beginning and me, that she was proud of me at the beginning. But the person I'm most proud of in this is you because there's no playbook to being a mom

with a son who is behaving this way. So thank you for being who you are. And Harry, if you would kind of tell your mom you're proud of her, that might. I love that because she doesn't get enough. I mean, she gets from us, you know, a lot of that we're proud of her, but it's often on the external stuff that she's done. She's accomplished some pretty remarkable things, but I love that because I am proud of you or for sticking by me or, you know, doing everything that you could to continue to fight even without knowing what to do. I'm proud of you. I'm proud of you back. And I have to give credit. I'm thinking of PJ. When we wrote this book, PJ went through it with us and combed through it and

everything else. So the book's amazing. I mean, you've got to know people. So basically they start this project together and you're kind of writing blind, right? Like Harry's writing a chapter and you're writing a chapter and it's, I guess, like, about halfway through, you kind of come together and check notes and be like, oh, wow. Oh, wow. And you're probably finding some stuff out like. I had no idea. Yeah. Like, PJ, what's crack?

But just to give him his due and his brothers as well, and sister-in-law, when we finish the manuscript, and I'm not here to sell the book. We're here to tell our story. But when we finished the book, and PJ had gone through all the chapters with us, he handed us a chapter that he had written that he called, I was there too. And so we loved it. And we offered it to the editor, and the editor rejected it. So if it ever goes to paperback, I'm going to insist that I was there, too, gets in there. What was the chapter? What was his side?

It was his side of it. His side of it. Which I think you see all the time in this. It's often the mom, but it's the whole family system. Right? Like, how often is it the mom that's... Well, it's my biggest... It's the thing where, I mean, aside from fentanyl and the opioid epidemic

and the loneliness epidemic and the public health crisis that we are in, when I get into the micro, like, and when I really start to comb through the issues, it's the family. It's the family oftentimes stays sick. Yes. Because they assume that as long as... as Harry gets well, then you're able to live your life. And that's not the way it works. Like, you, by proxy, becomes sick to or the mom becomes sick to. And that requires the same things that were required. Like, you need a community. You need a therapist. You need people to talk

through this stuff with because it's traumatic to be, I mean, look at the emotion. It's so bringing up 12 years later, walking out of that bank and seeing, seeing the receipts of your son's drug use. And I think about it. When I sat in the car, looking at those receipts, what was so scary to me was how bad off he was, clearly, when you're taking this kind of money. But also, I worried so desperately about the broken trust. And I literally said, I called PJ, and I said, I just can't, I can't get over it. Number one, you know, his life's in jeopardy. but the broken trust you know can we ever rebuild it and so i want to say something incredibly

positive that harry taught me what's your line trust is i did not coin the line yeah we steal a lot of recovery we borrow a lot of lines there's a lot of one-liners but trust is lost in buckets and gained in drops that's right i sat there in the car and thought will we ever trust one another again. We ever trust him. And I have to tell you, and I say this so families will recognize it because I bet many families have been through this when you're being stolen from me, when you're being lied to. You think, I'm never going to be able to trust my family member, my own son again. Guess what? In recovery, the trust is even better. The honesty is even stronger. Sometimes we complain he's a little too honest. We tone it down, Harry. We tone it down.

But you can rebuild the pottery, and it's actually stronger. I love that. And that's why the stories of recovery never get old, and that's why this conversation is so important because there are thousands and thousands of families out there today that are experiencing exactly what you guys experience, and they have no idea what you do. They have no idea.

And that's the confusing part. I mean, you look at cancer or heart disease or some of these other illnesses, that we're faced with. There's a playbook. There's a pretty good understanding of what we do when someone is struggling or needs to get radiation or recommendations or doctors. So what, when you finally look at that and you're like, okay, what do you do next? How do you find him help? What is the next 48 hours as you're getting ready to launch on this campaign? I was one week from the election. Okay. Superstorm Sandy was barreling in.

This is so, I was, so Tropical Storm Arena, that's the, there's a storm in my story, there's a bank teller in my story. It's true. There's always a storm. Yeah. No, but this, it is true. It was a metaphor for where we were. We were in the middle of a storm.

And it was also his daughter's first birthday coming up. Aubrey. Aubrey. First birthday. Was it first? Yes. Yeah, it was her first. She turned first on the 26th, which is probably right around when you.

went to the bank. But we had the Superstorm Sandy hit over the weekend. And through that, she knew but didn't say anything. Right. So I'll let you talk about what you were doing in the meantime. But I went in to ask my mom for money on Friday night just before bed. Hey, you know, can I have a couple bucks? And she said to me, I would, but, you know, there's something wrong with the account right now. I got to figure it out. And I knew in that moment, it was Friday. I knew that I was caught. Because I knew if she knew there was a problem with the bank, it was going to be really apparent what was going on with the bank. But that weekend, you know, came and went. We had a little birthday party. We had a birthday party on Sunday. And it was Tuesday. And where's your

drug use at this point? I mean, from the, you know, golf course, stumbling, slurring hairy at 14 years old, you've now progressed. And so I had progressed. Because I think we talk about this. The language is important, like hitting it head on. Yeah. So, you know, I had progressed. I'll walk you through that, you know, quickly. It went, for me in high school, drinking a marijuana to cocaine in high school every day. When I hit college, you know, what really made my substance use just take off and took my life in a different direction. Incredibly fast was opioids. So percocet, painkillers, you know, just took over my life in a way that, you know, you know, and so many of, you know, so many of us know.

But so in the very end, you know, what it actually was for me was I was going to Kensington every day to buy Suboxone off the street, right? And I was doing that because I was trying to find some way to stop. And I was hooked on that and I was afraid, you know, I was not going to see a doctor for medication-assisted treatment. I was just looking for any and every way to stop. But my life at the I was stealing to buy Suboxone off the street in Kensington and using as much as I possibly could just to get through another day. So the stealing and all of that is partially, it was, you know, it was the daily habit. And it was the knowing that, you know, this storm's coming. The mayor had shut down the major roads in Philly. I knew I had to get down there and I had to get what I needed

to get me through a long weekend. So it ramped up. But I think you, you know, you should talk about what, because you had about five days from the bank to confronting me. They were nervous making days. I thought we have to get through this weekend. We have to get through this birthday. And I have to put some things in place. And PJ and I did research on treatment, what's the best way? We also did research on, do we need an interventionist?

We've had advice along those lines. And I was determined if at all possible he was going to go to Karen. I had a connection to Karen. My uncle was a priest who was good friends with Dick and, I think it's Catherine, right? Yeah, I think Catherine, Karen, of course. He was very good friends with him because he ran a retreat house across the way, which happens to now be part of Karen, the big manor house. Yeah, yeah.

That's where I got sober. I lived there for three and a half months. Yeah, yeah. Well, I went there as a kid when it was a priest retreat house every Thanksgiving because there would be no retreat and my uncle would invite our families up there. And so I had a connection to the place. I felt a spiritual connection, a personal connection, and I knew their excellent work. I just knew that.

And so while we looked at other options, I was pretty determined, shall we say. And I pre-called and said, we're going to confront him on Tuesday, I guess it was. We're going to confront him. And if he is willing, what do we do? And they walked me through it. Get in the car and go, right? Yep. So Tuesday, did I ask you to come to the dining room table? What did we do? So Tuesday morning, again, I had no, so I had the heads up on Friday. Are you working?

Like, what is your life? I mean, like, there's no purpose, right? I mean, so I'm working for my dad. I'm working in a call center. I was working for my dad, too. What's up with this? Like, we just create these environments where we control everything. Maybe there was a prevention available here. You know, I'm working in a call center for my dad, you know, and telling everybody, I got to, this career. I had dropped out of college. I'm trying to provide for my, you know, my daughter and build this family in this life. And that's, you know, kind of the illusion that I'm telling everybody. And everybody knows and can see right through it. But, but again, I had, you know, I had the weekend to come up with an excuse. And I had been so good at that. I always had an excuse for when I was confronted, whether I said it was, you know, gambling or I got robbed or

anything but drugs. You know, I would, I would say I was doing something wrong as long as it wasn't, that I was using drugs, because I thought that if I told him that, that it would just make everything real, those fears that I had, that I was a bad person, right? Like, I knew better than that. They taught me better than that, so I didn't think I could share that. But I had the whole weekend, and I come down Tuesday morning, and, you know, they just say, hey, can you come into the dining room? And I walk in, and there's just bank statements spread out all over the table.

and I see little highlighter marks all over it. And I didn't have to look. I knew. I knew I was caught. I knew it was. Were you done? Was that your moment of clarity? Was that?

It was. And I didn't know that it would be, right? But like I was fighting it the whole weekend trying to come up with like, what's almost believable, you know, to like buy me an afternoon a day. But my mom asked me, she just said, we know it's drugs. We know it's drugs. She didn't even, you know, put anything out. And she said, do you want to get help? And that moment, you know, I had, you know, a moment of clarity that I didn't spin the story.

I didn't, you know, come up with an excuse when she asked if I wanted help. I just said yes. And I felt incredible relief. And I think a part of that that's fascinating, right, was I said yes and I agreed to go get help. And they put me on, you know, with a nice woman at Karen who, you know, did my intake. the phone call and we talked about what to pack and what to expect and all of this stuff. And I felt this incredible relief. And then what I did, though, was before we left, I went out into the garage where I had

everything hidden and I used again, right? And I remember, I'm standing outside at the garage by myself and I'm feeling this relief. And I used the last of what I had stashed from the weekend. in and I look around and it's, you know, the hurricane superstorm had come through. But the balance of like feeling that relief and still being compelled to, like, I had to go keep using. I didn't know a different way yet. So I felt it. But my behavior wasn't, you know, didn't change in that moment. So we drove. We were amazed. We were amazed that he just, he literally only said yes. So Matt, just for clarity purposes, you're how old at that time?

22. So you're 22, and you'd known or had that motherly instinct for how long you think prior to that? Oh, more than a year, more than a year. And I used to say to my husband, and we battled, I drug tested him a couple times. He would feel the heat in the house rising and do whatever you could to try to defeat the drug tests. My husband was against drug testing. We have to trust our kids. And I said, oh, yeah. forget that. And I'd known for a while, and I used to say to PJ, I feel like there's a fire in this house, and nobody but me feels it. Nobody. Yeah, my mom moved to Florida. And my mom said, my dad was the PJ in this story. And he kept, like, kind of pushing me down. And he was employing me and all that, you know. So it takes what it takes. It takes what it takes. But you guys hung in there. We hung in there. And what about the other kids? Did they, where were, Pat, it's Alex, right? So I'll start with Pat the Perfect is working for Obama, crisscrossing, you know,

for Obama's campaign. He's on Air Force One flying around, you know, just totally normal lifestyle. Yes, as Pat is. You know, and Alex, Alex I felt so bad about, right? Because Alex was the one who was still at home. He was my younger, is my younger brother. But he was there for these, fights, where I just sucked the oxygen out of the house and the attention and the focus and the battles. And, you know, I couldn't be honest with him. And I was afraid that he might sort of turn out like me, but, you know, we were there, you know, all together, trying to figure it out, trying to survive, trying to get through it, you know,

together. But they really responded. You know, you worry, what's this going to do to a family? Is it going to break people apart? Yeah. A lot of times they're resentment. All you guys care about is Harry. Do you see me over here? Like, you know, I'm, I'm normal and I have a job and I'm doing like really cool stuff, but all you seem to be pouring your energy in is to my drug, drug addict, you know, brother. And that's why it rips the families apart. Do you have siblings? Do you have any? I'm one of five. I'm one of five. I'm very open about this. I'm the only one that. So my oldest half brother, Rob, is about two and a half year sober. I got that call. Through him in the car. I took him off to Karen. And he's doing it right now. He's working at a treatment program down in Maryland. My sister has struggled with disordered eating.

I think my mom definitely passed along some of her anxiety. And so like the white picket fence isn't always so white and picketedy, if that makes sense. It's like, you know, once you start pulling it back, we all have our shit. Exactly. Yeah. So you go to Karen, you stay, is there relief mad for you when he is finally away? Or you still? I was delighted.

I was so happy. Twelve years, you'd think I could pull this together a little bit. I was so happy to be driving my son to treatment. because I thought we might be able to save his life. And I was scared at the same time because I heard about elopement that sometimes they just don't stay. They leave in the night.

But I was delighted that he said yes. And in fact, you have to scramble to get your stuff ready and pack and all that stuff. And I didn't want him to leave the house. I said, I'll go shop, whatever you need. I'll go to CVS. shop. And he said, no, I need to do this. I need to go with my mother of his child. And I need to do this. But I was afraid he wouldn't come back from running errands to pack. Yeah, that's the

crazy mind games that addiction does to us, right? Like whenever I'm prepping a family to do some type of family meeting or an intervention, you know, the mom or dad will always say like, well, and what if we sit down to have this meeting and they run? I said, what have we never have this conversation. Good point. Good point. If we don't start to chip away at this thing and have an honest voice in the room around what's really going on, nothing's going to change. So if we sit down to have this conversation, he takes off, well, then we're in the process. If you get him up to Karen and two days later, and this is more for the listeners, because I know there's people out there that

are going to hear this and say, my son will never go, my daughter will never go, my husband will never change. And that's where it's our job as folks are on the other side of this thing to instill some hope, some hope. My man, you end up in treatment, 28 days and out. That's what I signed up for. That's what he thought of us. I thought this was a 20-year-old.

Are you an extended care guy too? They tried. I wound up in a different, you know, different structured sober living after. But I went there under the, you know, again, it's like lack of education, right? Like, but up into that moment, all of my friends, everybody around me, because I had pushed everyone else away, right? But everyone around me was living how I was living, right? I didn't see anybody. There was no, there was no person in recovery that I felt like I could follow their path. I couldn't point to anybody and, and, and, see like, hey, he made it out. I had friends that went to treatment and they came back and were using again. So I didn't have high hopes, but I got there, you know, with the impression that this is 28 days and if they can detox me, you know, off of these drugs, you know, and just sort of like, if I can get past that, you know, then I'm good. My life will be fine. All these problems will go away. So I was so uneducated about recovery or about, you know, I just didn't have a lot of hope. I said yes because I didn't know what else to do.

I didn't feel like I had an alternative. But I get there for 28 days and, you know, I start to learn, right? I start to see some people. You know, I see people working in this treatment center that had been through this before, right? That they're showing up at work every day. They're on time. They got a smile on their face. We set the bar so low.

But like, that was big. I saw some people that knew how to show up to work. on time and maybe smiled it's like I want that you know but if you had looked through the you know the text messages with my supervisor when I was working for my dad in the call center like every day I got a flat tire the baby sick that you know like every every day there's an excuse no um and every day I'm you know sneaking out for an extended lunch break and um so it was like those little things because at the time like the life that I have today they talk about kind of like beyond your wildest dreams for me in that moment if I were to all I kept in the front of my mind was if I could wake up

and not want to get high that is a life beyond my wildest dreams and that's where I set the bar and I didn't believe that that was possible but I acted under the guidance of professionals until I found that right but you know the hardest and sort of one of the most influential decisions I've made was that decision to not go home after 28 days. And I fought it. I was just going to say he fought it hard. I ended up at Karen for like 33 days because I wouldn't agree to go somewhere else. And you stayed strong, Matt. Oh, I was determined. They held the boundary. We were not going to go back to where we had been. And I knew enough. Go for you. A lot of people crack. Oh, no, not this girl. I knew enough to know that opioid addiction, you're not

good on your own. I mean, this is, yeah, yeah. The risks today are so much greater. No, I wouldn't be here. I mean, we've talked about this. No shot. So 33 days and then where did you do sober living? Where did you? So I went to a place called Little Creek Lodge. But it was really, there was this guy, you know, at Karen named John. And he was one of the, you know. Reese? No. No. Okay.

But he was one of the texts there. And he would sit with me every day and he'd be like, man, if I had an opportunity that somebody was going to, you know, pay for me to go for 90 days when I came into this, he's like, everybody should have that opportunity. And, you know, I didn't believe the therapist. I thought the therapist and my parents were kind of like, you know, in this, you know, process. to try to just send me away. But what weighed on me was, you know, I had to break down this false image that I had up, that I'm a father, right? That, you know, I got to get back home to my kid.

You know, meanwhile, the entire first year of my daughter's life, I was there, but not present. Yeah, holding her in your arms telling you, telling her that he didn't want to live anymore. Yeah. And, you know, so I had to go, I had to work through that, right? But, you know, what I found in working through that was the first time where I became willing to put recovery first, right? Because if I was willing to do that, then maybe this thing could work. My mom wrote me a card when we were driving up the treatment that I opened the first morning when I got there.

And in the note, which I was shocked by, she said, if you get this, it's the best thing you could ever do for. for Aubrey and she ended the note by saying she was proud of me for going um so somehow that like that broke through and i and i got the i came to accept that like if i went back home i probably wasn't going to make it right like if i went back home i was going to go back to doing what i was doing and if i wanted to be the father that you know i wanted to be then this was the only shot was to continue in this process yeah we're we're lucky because we were we were loved at our most unlovable moments yeah like our family my family loved me when I was an unlovable human you your family and not everyone has has that that's what

I think about think of the people who just don't have that support or have burned so many bridges that people are just exhausted family members are drained financially emotionally you know if you get involved in the criminal justice system. Just, I think of folks like that every single day. Everybody deserves to have a support system. I agree. And that's, I want to go there a little bit because the three of us are waving a pretty big flag out there on the other side of this thing, trying to make change.

You know, trying to really make change. And I'm just going to read, so Mad, you are. a member of the bipartisan addiction and mental health task force. I don't think 12 years ago you were signing up for that. I don't think 12 years ago you had that on your 10-year goal. Could you – so like maybe – and this Harry chime in too, but what inspired the book? What inspired you to carry this message? What inspires you to be with me today?

I mean, like, sharing in such a vulnerable way. It's such an honor to, like, hold this space with you. But I think a lot of people in your shoes would go into the darkness and not talk about this. Do you want to talk about how? You start. I start. Yeah. I remember when he first went into recovery, I was a state representative, Pennsylvania General Assembly.

And so I knew I was caring a lot about the issues, recognizing that so many families, were struggling with this. And I got involved in proposing legislation or co-sponsoring legislation that had to do with getting people access to treatment or prevention or those kinds of things. But I was always in the minority in the Pennsylvania House, and he was newly in recovery.

So I used to say things, go to meetings or caucuses around the issue and say, you know, this has touched my family. But I wouldn't say specifically Harry. When I got to Congress, or no, I was running, for Congress. And we were asked to write the book. And you can detail that ridiculous circle how we ever got asked to write the book. I remember saying to him in the meeting with the agent who came to visit us, are you okay with this? Because at that point, you would have been how many years in recovery? Quick math. Six. Six or six. Yeah. And I said, are you okay

with this? Because I'm okay with it. I don't mind telling this story. I think it's only honest, and maybe it would help somebody. And he said immediately, yes, if we can help anybody, we help one person. It will have been worth it to tell our story, to say it publicly. And I truly wanted to be freed from stigma and shame because I know that keeps people in the shadow and keeps them away from support and keeps them away from the dignity to say this is a disease. I'm not just a lousy bad person. I have a disease that I am dealing with and I need help from.

Yeah, I mean, I don't care what side of the house you're on when it comes to this issue, substance use disorder, mental health, for someone of your stature to open your office up to me and give me an hour ahead of time, probably a half hour to break down all of our equipment. that's the type of leadership and honesty and authenticity we need in this country to really combat the issues that we have because it is, I think the numbers, maybe it went down by 10% with overdoses, but that doesn't tell half the story with the marijuana thing, the gambling thing. I mean, there are problems stacking up right behind the opioid thing, you know, and I call them thing for lack of a better word, but we know what we're talking about, right?

I don't you don't have to thank me in any way I'm delighted to do I mean like but we're in the middle like I can speak frankly like we're in the middle of election season and you're you're having me in here to talk with it to tell your story I mean that's to me that's leadership and you know today is my first time really truly meeting you and I'm just blown away by your by your realness oh I'm real I mean I'm getting it Harry has complained about how real I can be but No, I, I, it's, it's, it's really worth it to reveal warts and all, what goes on. If you can also tell the story of what's great in recovery, look at you too. The sky's the limit for you.

And you thought there was no future, literally no future, or if the future would be so leak and, and limited. The sky's the limit. and you're helping other people. I wear this starfish because I say it's my line of work. Our conversation hopefully helps somebody. You know the story of the little boy on the beat. You know it.

What's the story? So there's a, I'm going to butcher it now. I knew you put me on the spot. So there's a kid or a guy walking on the street, throwing starfish back into the ocean. And then a guy walks up and says, What do you know? Tell me the story.

Come on. You're close. They say, somehow it's like if I help one starfish today, I don't know. Tell me, come on, help me. I'm asking for help. And it's also, it reminds me it's also in many faiths. Today it's Rosh Hashanah. To save one life is to save the whole universe as a Jewish tenant.

Happy to year. But the little story, I think it's almost like a parable, is a little boy. He's on a beach and a very high tide has washed up. thousands of starfish. And so he's dutifully throwing them in one by one. And an older, wiser man comes by and says, little boy, what are you doing? What are he doing? He said, I'm saving starfish. They're going to dry. They're going to die up here. They're going to dry up. And the older man says, oh, little boy, don't you see? You can't make a difference. And he picks one up and he says, made a difference for that one. So what you're doing is you're making a difference for that one and for that one.

And if I said it's my line of work too, if I can make a difference, not just in the issue of mental health and addiction and recovery and prevention, but if I can make a little difference for one person at a time, it makes it seem worth it. And it takes me away from overwhelming challenges that we all face. Like, okay, I help somebody in this office. We're helping constituents all the time. And it, you know, takes away the idea that, oh, my gosh, there's so many issues in the world, so many challenges. We can't make a difference. Yeah, we can. I believe it because I'm sitting across from Harry, who's proof of that, and you haven't just helped yourself, but you've helped so many other people.

And I do have to acknowledge you for doing this because it does add pressure, writing a book, putting your story out there. you know something happens to you you return to use you relapse people can look to you and say well this thing doesn't work you know and so i think it takes a special type of person to really lay it all out there and and put it in writing and say i'm going to own this thing i'm a man in recovery i'm a father in recovery i and i'm proud of that you know and that's the thing that i think we miss this is something that i'm really proud of this is something you're really proud of can you speak to that pride and and just what's on the other side of You know, the treatment stays and the late nights with your six-month-old Aubrey.

I mean, I start by saying, one, I'm so proud of it. And, you know, the work that we get to do, you know, together and separately in this space to try to help, you know, one person at a time or many people means the world to me, right? You know, I talked about my wildest dream was waking up and not wanting to use drugs. And I could paint a picture of what my life looks like today. And it's so different. Tell me, man, what does it look like? What's going on? There's a lot going on.

We've got a lot going on. So, you know, since I've been in recovery, you know, I've met an incredible woman, Juliet, you know, and got married. She's a star. She's an absolute star. She's a rock star. Yeah, she keeps it all together. But, you know, I'll start. We talked a little bit about Aubrey, right?

You know, Aubrey today is 12. I was 13. You know, she'll be 13 in a couple weeks. And so, you know, I feel like my world has shifted. Right now I'm the parent to a 12-year-old and trying to figure out what does that, you know, side of it look like. And it makes me more proud of you because it is so hard. But it's so incredibly worth it. So the relationship that I've built with with Aubrey is like, you know, you know,

You know, nothing I can even describe and brings me so much joy, right? But again, like, if that was it, it would all be worth it. But then, you know, I met Juliet and, you know, we fell in love. We got married. We've started to build this life together. I've got a son, Sawyer, a daughter, Scotty, and they're both just unique, incredible miracles. And we've got another, you know, number four on the way, you know, coming in a month. You know, so it's, you know, that's just at the, at the most surface level, right?

But I've had the opportunity to meet incredible people, build a career, right? And, you know, when I got out of treatment, what I wanted to do was still hide in that shame and, like, put that experience behind me, right? Even in recovery, for years in recovery before we, you know, put our story out there publicly, I didn't talk about this. I was in recovery for six years and I wouldn't tell my boss. I wouldn't tell a coworker. I wouldn't tell anybody because I was ashamed of it.

And, you know, at this point, I've shifted everything, right? Like, I've shifted my life to work in this space, to work in treatment, to work in advocacy, to do everything that I can to lift up that next person. Because our story is an incredibly privileged story, right? Like we had access to incredible treatment, long-term treatment, all of the things that we could possibly ask for and then the intangibles like the family support like the fact that i didn't burn every bridge the fact that i don't have a a criminal record right like i had every advantage possible um and so i've like dedicated my life to trying to lift up others because not everybody

has that but in spite of not having that like recovery is still possible and what you know what an incredible life looks like can't look different for everybody. But for me, the most meaningful thing that I can do is try to be of service to that, right? Like, do what I can. Use my story. Use my platform, you know, however big or small it is, you know, and follow others, right? Because it's like it's amazing to watch you and the, you know, incredible platform that you have and, you know, the countless people that you've probably helped, right? And I think about everybody can play a role in that. You know, so like if I, you know, for the, for anybody listening to this, right, like you don't have to have

some incredible story or experience, right? But like what you probably do have is an experience or a story of how this issue, you know, whether it's mental health or addiction, substance use has impacted your life. We can talk about that at the dinner table. We can talk about that in our community. If we can talk about this more, like my, what excites me is if we can change the way the world talks about this, then we can change any policy we want. We can throw the dollars and this, you know, resources and the opportunities and the right, you know, treatment, harm reduction, all of those things, you know, and deploy them as we need to. But first, we need to change perception. Yeah, man. I'm the president of your fan club. You're a total stud. I'm not. I'm

I'm serious. From the day, the first time I encountered you, Harry, you were speaking, you were being honored or you were the speaker at the Karen, Philly Gala, and you were just so well-spoken. And what I saw was a little bit of myself. And the thing that people miss in this whole thing, this whole recovery process, and you did a little PR work with us, and we were going back and forth on, like, what's the tagline? And we kind of came to this thing of, like, it's not about what you give up. It's about what you gain.

And anytime someone says me, where did you learn to public speak? Where did you learn to connect with people? How did you learn to do this? Nine times out of 10, it wasn't studying some degree in college. It wasn't my high school English teacher. It was like probably in an AA meeting or probably in group therapy. Like I learned to tell my story in church basements. And that's like, that's just my truth.

And we got to get those stories out of the church basement and out into the mainstream because this thing is killing too many people. I know we're probably, like, running short on time. I'm so bummed because I feel like there's... Can I just say something? Yeah, because I have one more. You do have a lot of similarities. I really see it from your stories, not just bank tellers, but from your stories, from your ability to speak so honestly and well.

As you say, learned maybe in basements and other meeting rooms. You have a lot of similarities. And I've seen that with mothers, often with sons, who have struggled with addiction and get. to recovery. We see the same parallels in you. Such incredible heart, such incredible strength and an ability to connect with others because you've been through it. Yeah, it's like the best kept secret, this recovery thing. And it applies to all, I believe that. So, Matt, I'm going to kind of finished with you and Harry, feel free to chime in and maybe we'll run it back after election

season to dig into more of the politics of it all. But I have a dream. Like, you know, I was walking. If you live in New York City, you know what Sloan Kettering is. Yeah. You know what Sloan Kettering is, right? They do cancer treatment. Is there a day where there's a Kunan Center or There's a, you know, a place, a state-of-the-art behavioral health care institution that is treating substance use disorder and mental health in the way that it deserves to be treated. Like, is there, is there a world where there's more money and funds available for treatment? Two products of treatment right here. Good treatment works, but it's in both our cases. You said, we're privileged.

It was expensive. It was. What is one or two solutions you see near future long term for how we combat exactly what we've talked about for the last hour? I like your dream. I don't care about the naming rights. But I like your dream. I don't think I've got the check. But part of my job is to make sure that. government has a role to play in getting the resources out there for prevention, for treatment, for recovery, for longer-term recovery. And you're absolutely right. You look at a Sloan Kettering or St. Jude's, and you just, you beam with pride what they are doing. May we have that same kind of symbol on treatment centers or really important state-of-the-art places for medical

treatment for mental health treatment, where it brings that same smile instead of saying, oh, that's people really have a problem. You know where the detox is in the hospital? The bottom floor tucked away from get those people, linoleum floors, you know, cardboard mattresses, they don't deserve. Yeah. And that's, that's an easy fix. Like, just give us a shot.

All right, Harry. What do you think? We've got to have a goal here. we just planted a seed for a new dream there's a lot i mean i think the dream you know and maybe it's you know a byproduct of some of the you know 12 step stuff that has helped me so much right but like to i think it's dangerous when we talk about like you can't cure this right because i think it it makes it almost like we're going to accept the problem you know you can recover but we can't cure it and i think that that's something we need to talk about if i think

about, you know, what we can do, you know, my, what excites me is the opportunity. If we can change perception, right, if you look at, you know, this country's communities and individuals, you can see where the priorities are based on a budget. Where the dollars go, that's where people care, right? We need to put more dollars into this is what I believe, because if we do that to fund not just like band-aid treatment, right, but like fund the research that can actually take us into the future. Fund the studies to understand this on a deeper level, right? We know it impacts the brain. Same with mental health. We know that these are brain diseases. We talk about this as a brain disease. And we're not doing anything about it. Yeah. You know, we've been talking

about that for decades since way before you and I even started. But, you know, I think what needs to happen is I'll bring that back. I appreciate what you're doing. having these conversations because my belief is if we can change the conversation and the perception we can get the dollars budgeted in order to give this thing that you know the the time and energy and effort that it deserves um if you think about and i've heard you say this i'm going to borrow this i borrowed a line earlier i'm going to borrow a line now you know when COVID happened. The country, the world rallied around. We've got to do everything we can about this. I'll give you the other one. But, you know, if that kind of energy went to this. And look at

how many people are dying, right? Over 100,000 people a year. I've lost too many friends. I know you have. I know we all have. If we took a moment to think about what does that actually mean? Like, what is 100,000 people actually mean? How are we accepting that there's more people that have died in the last 20 years from overdose than have died in all American wars ever? If we took the time to put all of our effort into solving that, we could see results quickly. It doesn't have to be this crazy future, but the only way to get there is to get people on board aware and get the stigma to sort of, you know, recognize that that's only hurting. It's not helping. And this crazy present, we're in this crazy present, up to 100,000 people dying of drug overdose,

80 some thousand of them, opioids. I called a jetliner a day in this country, a jetliner a day, every single day, 365 days a year, is crashing to the ground. And we haven't figured out how to land that plane. You'd think of the two plane crashes that were within weeks of each, other and took several hundred lives or a couple hundred lives. What did the plane manufacturer do? Ground the plane. Across the globe. Ground the plane. Find out what in God's name is taking these lives. I will say that I have hope in a future Congress, the next Congress, that we will do more of putting resources toward mental health and addiction. We do have bipartisan caucuses on this, on fentanyl. Last Congress, we passed a

tremendous number of bills, and a lot of it had recognition and dollars, direct dollars for mental health and for substance use. Sweet. Disorder. Not enough. We got a lot more to do. We haven't done enough this Congress, but I like your dream. I'll dream it with you.

I don't even know why I brought notes. I knew this conversation was going to flow. I can throw these notes over here. I just, I know the power of this conversation. I know the energy in this room. There's some other folks kind of lying in the cut, and I see them shaking their head and nodding. And that's like we're just doing one conversation at a time.

So I will tell you both that I am rooting for you, Harry. I am rooting for you, Congresswoman, mad. I'll call you mad. And I just know. I know that there is a bright future. We keep chopping wood and carrying water. If you want more information, I have two things here. One, I mean, this is this television.

the story of recovery right here. That's an older picture. This is an older picture. Can you hold that? Yeah, sure. The family, all together. With apologies to those who aren't in it. Yeah.

And under our roof, our son's battle for recovery, a mother's battle for her son. And we heard a part of the story today. Good luck. I know it's going to be a sleepless season for you. But I met some of your team and they were so lovely. So you got some good people behind you. They've got a good sense of humor. We're going to get through it.

I would love to end with a hug because I think moms need a hug. Yeah, let's do it. Come on. Yeah, there's no rules here. This is like, this is like, I'm very proud of you. Yeah, thank, I'm proud of you. Thank you. Let's work together.

Yes, please. I'm written for you. Thank you. Thank you.