The Zac Clark Show - An Epidemic Hiding In Plain Sight: Let’s Talk About Gambling with Expert Brian Dolan

Episode Date: May 7, 2024

Roughly 68 million people bet on Super Bowl LVIII this year, amounting to more than $23 billion. In 2023, the American gambling industry generated more than $65 billion in revenue. These numbers surpass the economies of many small countries. In the United States, gambling – particularly sports betting – is here to stay and it is EVERYWHERE. In this week’s episode, I brought in an expert with his own gambling war chest to discuss this social-cultural explosion. Brian Dolan is an Addiction Specialist and an advocate for recovery. He’s an impassioned individual with personal triumphs over gambling and substance use disorders. With a Master’s in Clinical Mental Health and 6 years of experience managing Collegiate Recovery Programs, Brian is tapped into gambling’s mainstream rise, particularly among our youth, in a way most aren’t. We discuss the pitfalls of gambling, how to identify a gambling problem, the risk on our youth, the complicity of policy makers and Big Business players ready to cash in, and the reality that gambling, once relegated to the underbelly of American society, is a cash cow of social problems one click away. I hope you enjoy this discussion about a critical issue whose darker side demands more attention in our national dialogue. Thank You and Keep Going. Zac Clark Resource: Think you may have a problem with gambling, please click the link below: https://oasas.ny.gov/system/files/documents/2024/02/samhsa-2014-gambling-problems.pdf Source: SAMHSA Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right. So on today's episode of the Zach Clark show, we're going to hear a lot about the evolution of gambling from the envelope paying the bookie in the barbershop to the rampant growth of online apps and the ease it is to place bets. Today I have Brian Dolan, someone who's in gambling recovery. We're going to get into all of it. It's a good listen. Come along. 750,000 people between the ages of 14 and 21 struggle with this addiction. And I'm excited to talk to an expert and someone who's battled this addiction today about gambling. Full disclosure, I gamble. I place bets. I have Fandul on my phone. It's so easy, and I'm so fascinated by what's about to happen.

So today we have with us, Brian Dolan. Brian is the director of the Collegiate Recovery Program at Sacred Heart University. He was just featured on ESPN, a piece that Jeremy Schapp did, accounting one of his client's journey into gambling recovery, and he's going to enlighten us today. Brian, what's up? Grateful to be here, excited. You know, this is a hot button issue, and I'm ready to get into it with you. So I got to start with the gas.

There's this story that you tell. So like myself, Brian, is also I can share this in recovery from substance use disorder, and we have a lot of mutual friends, and we've become closer over the last couple months here. But anyway, there's this story you tell about entering into rehab for the first time, and it kind of relates to what we're, can you just share? a little bit about that yeah absolutely it's a wild story and um i basically you know i think a lot like substance use um i was i was super dishonest i was lying a lot was lying a lot to my family i was in i was in trouble with a you know you're you're talking about 2016 so you're talking

about a completely under what we call like an underground market right just bookies illegal for gambling for gambling yeah yeah so completely different landscape to your point about today of how accessible it is so i had gone to my parents who had already been dealing with this for a long time you know and i also have a you know at this point in eight ball a day cocaine habit you're basically gambling and putting an eight ball coke up your nose daily yeah so basically i graduated college and within a year i i i went on this you know i'd been gambling before i ever touched alcohol and drugs gambling was a part of my life at a pretty young age um and what's young i mean i i remember just like such great memories of you know me and my dad filling out brackets

you know seven eight years old yeah you know me and my buddies just like racing off the bus in the middle of march just we were hoop guys we were you know that's that's that's just what it was that young um so yeah i mean it had presented over and over again, the drugs and alcohol I presented, and my family, I lie. You know, we see this a lot in problem gambling is, let's say I owe somebody $10,000. I'm going to use that fear with my family, right, and say, I owe him 15,000. Pay the bookie, you know, 10,000. Now I got 5,000 for, you know, my Coke habit or whatever, you know, whatever to keep me going.

So you go to your old man, you say, hey, dad, I got a problem. I'm down the 10k, but in reality, I'm down 15. In reality, you're down 10, so you clip another five for yourself. I was really down 20 and asked for 30. And yes, so 23, 23 years old. You know, so I lie. I keep betting. I keep using. I keep, you know, and this is parents are divorced. I know how to split them. They're finally getting the education like release provides you know i mean i'm i'm i'm i'm in trouble and uh so i place this big bet $12,000 bet um packers lions game game ends in a and erin rogers hail mary i had the other side i had the lions so i kind of i walk i remember was it monday night no it was a thursday night

yeah yeah and um so the first time i ever walked into a detox facility a guy comes up to me and why are you here now it's been an eight ball a day for a while it's a lot of alcohol consumption and i go did you see the game on thursday night because if that game goes the other way i'm certainly not in this in this detox and that's you know one of the differences between gambling and in substances right like i always think i got another day another shot another way out you know yeah it's interesting i uh that's crazy and did you end up what what happened you might go to detox did you went to detox went to residential got exposed a little bit moved to Brooklyn Dawn Gallagher shout out she she was my first exposure to to AA and you know

her sober house so I would always kind of present in the townhouse I lived in the townhouse yeah oh yeah and at this time you like like from a gambling perspective like are you you go to rehab or detox and you're like all right I'm not going to gamble or you're like, this isn't really a problem? I would talk about it. I would say that the treatment center, I mean, nothing against them at all, but like, you know, I would, I would, I would, you know, actually at the time Dawn had somebody, I was working at the house that I would also go to GA. So, so I, you know, I get my first taste to, you know, recovery-ish, you know, I'm going, but I'm not really working a program. So yeah, I'm honest about the gambling. I go to a little GA here in

Manhattan but I'm just that's gamblers anonymous for those you guys that are listening which is like the 12-set version of AA or NA so gamblers anonymous right it's like problem gamblers meet and they try to help yes exactly so so um golf is a big part of my story big part of my uh initially gone to sacred heart as uh to play and I mean I didn't because of drugs and alcohol can you still play? Not like I used to be. And you were a Hooper, too, or no? Not the college level.

But I mean, I love sports. And I can get more into that, too, is like, and that's a lot of the people I work with. The identity is so, so intertwined with that, right? Like, think about you, you were a baseball player, right? Like, what are those memories that you have, you know, of baseball? Yeah, win. Win. Win at all costs.

Yeah. And we don't win today. We're going to win tomorrow. Yeah, competitive, but also, like, there's this healthy relationship. And, like, when you're really working with a problem gambler, you're trying to smash that a little bit, right? Like, you got to step away from the world of sports. You got to step away. So it's, it's really hard. Like, the profile I'm seeing a lot is ex-athlet, Uber competitive, you know, and it's how young men communicate, right? Like, who you got tonight? What's the spread? Who are your picks? You know, it's in your face. But, Yeah, so I should mention real quick, too, just Brian also has his master's in mental health counseling. So he's not just a guy. I mean, like you've done the work. You've got the education, which is, I think, helpful for people to hear, even though I have zero education. But go ahead. You have a lot of education. You do a lot of work. And I, yeah, I, yeah, so I, I start going to

the rooms a little bit. And I got this, I have this presentation of, um, Scolfo Island. you know, unbelievable golf course. And you hadn't been gambling going into the ship. Had been gamblers right around 90 days, right? Family friend, they're going to fly me down there. I just got to show up and tee it up, right? Everybody in my life is telling me not to go, right? And I go down there, simple $100 a man for three days, stroke play.

Like, it's very simple, like nothing crazy. But to me internally, like what I had just gone through, that was a relapse and boom i was out moved out of the townhouse and you know was in my own apartment then i lasted a couple months ton of guilt shame like what am i doing um end up treatment center number two so are you at this point are you i'm just trying to think about it are you more concerned about the gambling are you more concerned about your drug and alcohol use I think that at this point, I'm trying to not surrender to all three, right? I'm trying to say, I can still gamble or I can still drink or I can still, right,

I looked at them separately, right? I looked at them individually. So, yeah, I last a couple months on my own. I was not ready. I was in Brooklyn and I just, you know, I quickly go treatment center number two. But what's presenting more in real time is the substance. use. Like, that's what's meeting criteria for, you know, my insurance through my employer to get me in there and, you know, things like that. So I go to Seabrook House and, you know, same

type of thing. I, I moved back into the townhouse for like a month. Which is a, so Seabrooks at the treatment center. That was actually my first treatment. Yeah. We share it. We're like, we're pals in that. Yeah. Class of 2010. What? Nice. Did not say sober. Okay. So you go to C.E. Brooke house. Yeah. End up back in New York. Go ahead. From there, I mean, it was the darkest next 16 months of my life. I mean, I had this job. I was supposed to go see clients every afternoon. I'd go in the office from like 7 to 11. What were you doing for work? I was like an account management. Yeah. You know, I was got it. I was, I was sick, you know. And so,

So I go to, I basically spend the next year and a half, like, hijacking, you know, relationships to live with them. And, you know, I'm just basically lost, you know, but I'm unwilling to surrender. And now I can't afford the Coke like I was when I was red hot gambling. Did you go on some heaters? I mean, were there some times. There are some times. I mean, yeah, like, you remember that.

you remember that uh Seattle Pats I'm a Massachusetts guy so Patriots Super Bowl I mean I can tell you a story of like three guys being under 25 years old having to combine 50 grand on that game game ends with that interception I mean we went we went nuts yeah you went insane but like honestly the first thing I did was go and grab cocaine you know like I just it was never enough like very similarly to to drugs and alcohol so yeah I mean I had some point I think that's just like what people miss about gambling and why i'm so concerned about because we're going to get into hopefully some of the solution here sure uh because you have turned your life around but the winning a bet affects the same part of the brain that of course light or line of coke or a blunt

or sex effects so i mean that that's why i have so much concern around this gambling thing um But I just wanted to highlight that. Okay, so you had some heaters in this next 16 months, you're struggling and how does it all? Yeah, I mean, I was, I was, so at this point, what my life would look like was, I, and now, again, to remind you completely different landscape, what I mean by that is I needed to, even way back in my college days, I would have to, I'd burn a bridge with a book, you know, a bookie, I'd say, I'm not paying you. or you know we'd get into some altercations um not proud of those moments but you know i was i was a kid so i would i would actually have um you know i'd be gambling and then i'd be drinking or i you know i couldn't surrender to all three and i i had used like suicide as um you know a way to get bailed out right Like, I had used depression and all this fear and insecurity that I had to...

Wait, hold up. So you would... With your family or... With my family, yeah. So you would basically go to them and say, like, I'm going to kill myself. Not that directly, but, like, I had the depression. I mean, there was right before Seabrook, actually, my mom came down to pick me up. My mom's, like, from a small town.

She hates driving the city. She picks me up. A credit card had just come in the mayor. You and I both know I'm not going to treatment with a little bit of money on a credit card. So we drive like one block and I jump out of the car and say, I'm going to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge and I just go ghost for like five days. You know, like just absolute ghost. My mom's like doesn't know where I am. I mean, thanks to women like Dawn and other people that were there for her.

But it was like, it was dark. It was deep. So then I come back out and, you know, I'm still not ready. I'm still, I still can't surrender. And then so I would say that. When I said that in a moment, like the Brooklyn Bridge thing, I didn't mean it. I just, you know, I was angry. I had deep-seated trauma.

I had, you know, stuff. I'm thinking about your mom in that situation, bro. Like, and I'm thinking about all the parents out there that may be listening to this because on one hand, there are people out there that are going to say that. actually do it you know and they mean that and there's people out there like you and myself who might utilize that to yeah you know co-sign and get them to co-sign another day or week or month of our behavior and that's just that's terrifying for for a parent and it I think it really just highlights this whole thing that we're talking about I agree and uh to that point like statistically says

you know, it's not the right phrase for it, but like successful suicide attempts are, you know, by problem gamblers compared to substances compared to other forms of addiction. So it's like... So most people to die by suicide? A higher percentage, right? Not the most amount, but it's like, you can't really talk about gambling without talking about suicide, right? They're kind of, they're pretty intertwined. So yeah, I never really felt like that. I'm living in this apartment in Brooklyn and I, I now that thought was like kind of real for me. Like I was afraid to go into, you know, down in the subway because I'm like, you know, like I was afraid and that scared me enough.

So, yeah, I mean, long story short, I call my mom and I'm like, hey, you know, and kind of I'll get into this more, but back to the sports, I somehow still have this job and I'm like, you can go back to this treatment center mountain side they have an indoor basketball court she's like you don't get it brie like you're still making your own decisions and for whatever reason like you know I choose to call that God but like

I heard it first she probably said it a thousand times but I finally surrendered I did ask you know a friend to be like for me to go to detox because now I'm like physically dependent on alcohol I'm actually not gambling

because I can't find a bookie and every one of my friends that had bookies were they were done with me man they were like you got issues you should not be doing this thank god there are no apps i know thank god i was just having this conversation with some of your staff i i don't know if i would be alive in this in the same landscape because i yeah i mean my sober date is a couple days after another uh patriot super bowl um when they be at Atlanta so it's almost like the apps are to gambling what fentanyl are is to drug use because like the way that you talk about that like you really might not be here that the apps were here yeah when you were gambling i believe that about myself like if fentanyl was on

the street yeah the way that it is now there's no shot yeah wow yeah yeah so and then i you know i i finally go to a place that treated drugs alcohol and gambling right so i finally get the treatment at the inpatient level based in that. I spend 30 days there in Virginia. Still wanted to kind of come back to Brooklyn and like, you know, that's where I knew people in AA and GA. And then, but I surrender again. I end up down in Florida, West Palm,

start running a sober house at like really early on in recovery. So you're like me. You're one of these guys that just gets into the work right away. Yeah. And for some of us, I feel like that's like a necessary, I don't know what it is. For me, you know,

my sobriety is not contingent on what I do professionally. I believe that. But there was something, like for me, that was one of the first decisions I made in my new life that I was actually going to work in behavioral health care and no one was going to tell me differently and I was going to fucking do it

and I was going to do it well. And then I actually did it. Yeah. And that's where the hope comes from. Yeah. You get a lot of these guys out there, man, that are like, don't do the work in the first year.

Don't do this. I'm like, fuck, I don't want to be told no anymore, man. I didn't get sober to, so I love that. Yeah. So, yeah, I got luckily hooked up with the right guys down there. We ran this. And it's so, I mean, back to like the entitlement. And, you know, I grew up in a, you know, middle class family.

But then I went to a college that was like very upper middle class and like Sacred Heart University. And it was like, you know, I look back on my time because I work a lot around college students and it's like, you know, maybe having that Coke in my pocket or having the most amount of money on the game kind of leveled me up because I didn't have this like, you know, $100,000 Mercedes that they had. And, you know, I think I would have earned my seat no matter what when it comes to, you know, my recovery and my addiction. But I think it was pretty, that had a lot to do with it. So I end up running this very, it was a tough house, right? It was like, we get a lot of guys out of jail off the street and it was like exactly what I needed you know so I

did that wait can we go back so so did I hear you right that there was a part of you that was gambling the amount of money you did to try to fit in and feel a certain way because of some of the people that you were around so you are you are like a therapist you're trained that way but it's yeah I mean absolutely there was there was a lot of insecurity there when I look back you wouldn't have seen that in my time there. But yeah, I think it became my identity. It became Brian knows more about sports than anybody else. He's so fucking great.

I saw this thing from Mike Posner and like, you know, he's a guy that's in recovery. He's open about it. And he tells he does a lot of storytelling on social media and he was going into something, you know, about like in his 20s when he was just like took the pill to be cool or took the thing to get in the room with the Vichie. Like he just did all this shit to say like, hey, I'm fucking here. see me you know and none of that shit matters absolutely we do the craziest shit and i think that for me like it happened like i had another double down on that recently like the like so much of this shit doesn't matter but we do things because like as human beings we just we just want to be seen and we just want to be a part of and on the flip side i feel like that's what our recoveries have

given us, right? 100%. Yeah, no, it's a huge piece of it. So, yeah, there was a lot of hoop. There was three different sports. You know, tore both of my Achilles. Then, you know, golf was the only game I was going to be playing in college, lost that, like, you're an athlete. You know, it's like I'd really lost that identity as an athlete. I needed to find it somehow. Here was sports and then gambling. And that time, it was like, I almost, it's very different. Like, I enjoyed that underground aspect of it, right? Like, I enjoyed walking into a barbershop and dropping off an envelope or, like, all that gritty aspect of it, right?

And now it's like, boom, it's legal. We do a lot of, I think universities do a good job at this. It's called, like, social norming campaigns. Basically, what that does is, like, you know, like, what were the messages that you got about college growing up? I mean, you go there and you part. and you are away from your family for the first time in your life

and you learn how to make your bed and maybe kiss girl, like whatever, like do the things that you now have freedom to do. Yeah, but like drugs and alcohol is a part of it. Yeah, of course. So a social norming campaign, and basically what it does is it just collects a lot of data on a campus and then it sends it back to the students

to kind of try to just like smash this. Like actually a less percentage of people are drinking four to five times a week than you think, right? That might be like the it crowd or what you think is like the it crowd, but it's a lot of people who are there for an education. A lot of people there who are, you know, are there for the first time, first generational college students. There's a lot of, you know, athletes who are really committed. So the same thing, like now that gambling is legal, you have a softer look on it, right? So it's like it increased. Same thing. Like I kind of,

a lot of people is like, what's this comparison to? Is it, is it cigarettes? Is it marijuana? Is it, you know, I like the oxy stage of the opiate epidemic. Like, I think that's a fair way to put it right now. But I think it's also how much, how much access versus, I mean, the treatment side. But, yeah, I mean, basically, if you're growing up and you're eight years old right now, gambling is a part of sports as, you know, the physical game or the, you know, the injury report or statistics. Like, it's as embedded in there as anything else. shout out Grace Adams, who sent me an article first thing this morning.

She knew she's helping us produce this whole thing. And she sent an article out from the Wall Street Journal today. And apparently, like, NBA TV next year, you're going to be able to lock, like, and play, like, I have NBA TV because I got to watch my hometown sixers up here in New York. Sure. And now apparently, like, if you're on the app watching, you can literally bet while watching the game, like, that's through the NBA. Yeah.

And then you, I mean, that's, it's wild. And you also, that's the thing is like, every. Everybody wants to point the finger at Draft Kings and sports, you know, Draft Kings, Fanduel, all that stuff. But I'm pointing the finger a little bit at the media companies, the leagues. But I mean, they see it as a cash cow. It's good for ratings. It's good for advertising.

It's, there's a lot to it. Yeah. I mean, I just have some crazy stats here. I mean, um, 119.8 billion dollars in 2023 generated, um, or transacted. 329 billion in economic activity but the biggest one is 90% of people with a gambling problem will never get help you know and that's

that's the one that sticks out for me because I led with I think 750,000 I'm throwing a lot of numbers out there right now but if 750,000 young people ages 14 to 21 have a gambling addiction and only 10% of those I mean that's 75,000 people that'll get help and another you know 675 if my math is right yeah yeah

that will, you know, go on and keep burning shit down. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so your home state of Pennsylvania just came out. There's like $2.3 billion that state made in tax revenue on it. So from what I hear, like some interpersonal, you know, relationships is like almost overnight Pennsylvania legalizing, like wiped out the infrastructure of Atlantic City. So, like, that's like the economic power of this, um, which is, obviously, you know, pushback. And then when you really get into the weeds here, you know,

Gambling doesn't have a face like a Zach Clark or these people are so open about it, right? And it's Brian Nolan. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's just, it's just sad because it's not the, the infrastructure of young people in recovery is not there. The infrastructure of like housing, like a lot of what release does is not there. So there's, there's a lot of people that need help. And I think it's, Yeah, we're just at the, we're just at the tip of this, and it's, it's just going to keep going and going. But big numbers, big money. So I want to get to the happy part. When, when do you place your last bet? November 27th, 2016. And you know that date. Oh, yeah. Nothing since that. That's like, just to be clear, like I'm talking March Madness right now. Like, we're in the middle of March, like you're not doing a bracket. You're not throwing in five bucks for a nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. I won't flip a quarter with you for a quarter, right? Like it is zero.

And if you're out with guys and like you're on the first tee and like they're like, hey, five, five, ten, that's all like like easy like and you're just have to like, what do you say? Well, so that's an interesting thing that I don't, I still want to like compete, right? So like what I'll do is like, let's say you and me are playing golf. We'll take on the two guys and then you have to put up all the money. I don't touch the money because I still want to, I still want the, you know, the six footer to mean something, you know, but I.

so I compete, but I, like, I play in some tournament golf, and my dad stakes it. And if I win, he wins, not me. I don't touch it, you know? And it's, yeah, I mean, nothing. To me, that's almost harder. Like, everyone freaks out about when they're in early sobriety going to a bar and having to order a club soda. Like, I'd be terrified with my boys on the first tea, like, say, I know.

You know, like, that's. It's been hard. It's actually, I would say, for me, like, personally, like, I know that I would bet first. Right. And like what I mean by that is like a relapse for me would look like I'd place a bet, right? And they, you know, you really talk about like the addiction aspect. Like gamblers don't have that, that physical symptom, right? Like so we're able to, you know, lie and manipulate at such a deeper level at some points than someone that's drinking a, you know, a leader of vodka every day, you know. So, so my point is, is like, I have to be, I have to be, I have to be very careful around the gambling. And, Yeah, so I want to get into kind of because part of this whole conversation, the conversations that we're having here is we're bringing experts on like yourself, someone who is a gambling expert to share their experience and then offer some level of support or solution to this problem. But before we do that, I think I'm just curious to see like where, where are we going, dude? Where is this like where is the gambling thing going to go? Like if you had like in five years, if we keep tracking the way we're tracking.

So the first thing I'll say is I think the sports betting is kind of like the gateway drug to like the online casino, right? So if you look at a lot of the trends and the sports betting, it's like 96 percent, 95, 96 percent male. They're trying to attract more females. They're trying to get other people involved. And then I think you're also going to see, and I've already worked with some of these cases, but like the gambling on, the video games. So I think that's like the big next exploding piece where like I don't think it's too far away from you know a couple years from now you can just on draft kings play you know mad in one-on-one against somebody and there's money on it and you're just normalized gambling. And then

so where does this go? I mean I think it goes to I mean 38 states are now legal. I think all those will cross. I think that it is completely attacking young adults, young adult men. And we're not really there on the infrastructure of treatment side. That's kind of scares me. You know, like I honestly have, you know, my wife, like, I'm anxious about it, right? It's a lot of, a lot of things are happening. Like, there's this big Otani story right now. Like, obviously, that's getting a lot of press around gambling and it's like is he involved like you and i i think you you share this with me is like someone's really sick in there and they need help right but that's not that's not the big ticket thing to talk about um i can't give you like specific numbers but i think that i think

we're in trouble unless we start to really grow community which you've demonstrated so well like i think if we don't do that you know it's going to be an uphill battle and and i'll go back to why is that? You're talking about value-based people. What I mean by that is like, just treatment resistant, but also like, I want to see you for 10 minutes and be good. And I never want to have the urge to gamble again. Addiction is much stronger than that. And the other thing I'll say is that bond to sports. It's my identity. You don't have these like eight-year-old memories of you on a ball field throwing heroin back and forth with your best friend, you know? you know these guys that's what you're up against you're up against you know my dad coached me and

you know this is my whole life so it's it's stronger than especially when it comes to like the sports betting and then the increase in my like day-to-day work the increase in it has created way more like experts right you have more data on all this stuff so what i mean about that in my day when i was gambling it was like you know what we call like straight money line you know or total right and now's a straight better now it's like you have so many different ways you can bet you can really start to believe oh i have this figured out and the segments and you know chinese basketball and a million different things where it's like i really feel like i'm an expert in this and this is a way like a lot of the people i work with are you know a little

i don't know what i would call like anxious avoidant they're not sure about you know who who are they going to be in this life right like college creates that like college creates your time to launch. And I need to become financially independent eventually if I'm not already. No, I mean, dude, they have these like same game parlays now. I mean, I remember last fall, I mean, I feel bad talking about this, but go Phil's. There was a game early on in the playoffs where, you know, Cassiano's, Schwerver hit two, Harper hit one. And I like dialed it all up before and put 50 bucks on it and like you know one five grand or whatever it was like just a nothing thing but i was like that was cool but you bet your ass for every game the rest of the

playoffs i was trying to duplicate you know yeah that bet so what what ended up happening i don't know like did i break eat like you know and then you start to throw some other stuff in there so it's just it's fascinating and the other thing that i think we talk about is you know just like you need to eat food like you we need our phones and so it's it's like we're carrying your your your bookies in your pocket. Yeah. Yeah. And the first thing I say like a family might call and they're worried about their son and it's like, I'll say that. I go, it's been over seven years and it's a completely different landscape than when I tried to stop. It's harder, point blank period, you know? And so from there, I remember, I think there's so much of it. There's like the technology, right? Like it's

crazy to like think about this but like I used to call this one 800 number it's like one 800 sports basically and it would be like one for the NBA and that's how I would get my scores you talk to old timers in the rooms of like gamblers anonymous and it's like I would wait to the next day to see the newspaper right like you want to talk about so now that I can see everything live constantly I can place the bet from the phone I mean it's so all of it together and kind of back to the college kid, it's like, you know, I'm a broke college kid. I'm sitting on the couch and I want to buy the girl a drink at a bar, but I can't. Fan duel, hey, here's two, $300, take your chance. Well, kids not going to take a shot at that. And then what person

at that age, brain's not fully developed, risk taking behavior, all that stuff? It's like, what guy's not going to, you know, turn that risk-free, sweat-free, 500 bucks into $5,000 and then I'm never going to touch this again. I'm done. One of the biggest, like, risk factors is early success, you know, like early, early wins. So, yeah. So, okay, moving into the solution, congrats, by the way. It's fucking awesome. Thank you. I can't imagine. I can't imagine. But anyway, now today, a family calls you, obviously, this thing looks a little bit different than maybe a substance use disorder. There's behaviors around it. Obviously, it affects the family in ways that a lot of us can't even imagine because their bank accounts are being drained,

where do you kind of start when you start to assess the problem and the family and point them in the right direction? Yeah, I mean, I think first and foremost, it's like really getting some education around the family, right? I think that, I believe that for my own personal story and a lot of people I've worked with where like the family shifts first before the young, especially like when it comes to the young adult population. So, I mean, we got to draw hard boundaries around the money. We got to take some financial oversight. And we got to, it's a little bit harder, right? I have to, I have to develop real trust in buying with these guys because I can't test for it. I mean, I can put some, you know, one of the big issues, like a bigger picture issue is self-exclusion, right? So

you can exclude yourself off draft kings for a year, three-year, five, five years lifetime, but then you can download Fandul and go on that, right? So the testing aspect, like I'm just trying to create like honest dialogue for the first time about this with someone who's been there and can really speak their language. But yeah, it's a lot of financial boundaries. I think we're, I think we're lost in all aspects, not just the infrastructure of treatment, but also we don't have evidence-based treatment like substance use. So we're like, we're 20, 20 years behind and I think I think you're going to see the gambling and like other process addiction just continue right like you're talking about the gaming and just the phone and like

so yeah it's about that trust it's that can I get this individual to understand that I'm not here to like put him in trouble I were a lot of guys that I work with it's their first real time in any type of care right so it's it's a it's a lot about educating the family you keep saying guys do you just not see women with the same it's it's not that i like wouldn't work with a woman but i yeah i mean most of my i see a lot more male yeah i think i think the landscape and i think all other professionals in the space would would say the same thing they're seeing a lot any idea why um i think it's the i think it might have to do with the the sports aspects but i mean i do know women that have struggle you know um but

But, yeah. Okay. And so how does this ESPN thing come to light? Yeah, that was exciting. I mean, basically, I do a lot of work with the Connecticut Council on Problem Gambling. Okay. So they're kind of always asking me, you know, someone with lived experience, who works in it, can you speak? And yeah, ESPN was doing a story and wanted someone to talk about it from the problem side.

They did a lot of covering of how big the big to be. business was, how it's really changed the landscape of sports as a whole. And then they reached out to me knowing that I struggled with it and worked with people. And it was a cool experience. We had Jeremy Schaapack as recently Monday night to do a panel. He's been great. And it's, you know, we want to hold more conversations around this topic. And it's great that you're doing it because it's everywhere. Are the people behind that project? I mean, I don't need you to out anyone, but do you feel like there is some level of personal connection or they just feel like it's a relevant thing that needs to be covered? I felt like Jeremy and ESPN

really wanted to show the whole side of it. What I'll say is the deeper you look into this thing, Zach, like the more you're like, wow, this is this is bad. What I mean by that is every council on problem gambling state by state is funded by the lottery right is funded by losses so everyone's kind of bought you know like i mean there's a lot of people doing great work connecticut council being one of them they give us grant money at sacred heart to deliver this and i'm i'm not trying to but everyone's kind of afraid to say i'm i'm here to represent the four to six percent of gamblers that that can't handle gambling right but it's It's like, please play responsibly, call 1,800 gambler.

It's not enough for some of these super acute situations. So it's, I would say they truly wanted to show the whole story, ESPN. But I mean, Jeremy Shapp even asked Senator Blumenthal, like, he asked him, like, what do you feel like ESPN getting into that space with the launch of ESPN vet? And the center's like, you know, I love ESPN, you know, because, you know, they're headquartered there. but it's like be careful you know and i hope you're doing some so it's it's a hot button issue for a lot of a lot of people i mean maybe i'm thinking about it too clearly but if these states are making this much money off of gambling shouldn't some of those resources go back towards something a little bit more sophisticated than one 800 gambler yeah so so basically right now

um every state is run differently so like every state has different regulation uh when it comes to when it comes to gambling. And so, so therefore, um, the books can kind of operate differently state by state. And yeah, there's no federal money. So like compared to drugs and alcohol, there's no federal money. Senator Blumenthal was actually a huge component of what was known as the Grid Act still hasn't gotten past. That was just asking for federal money to go to states for, there hasn't been like a major study from like the CDC or anything like that. on gambling in a long time so we're like we don't have good research we don't have great treatment we don't have um but yeah it's it's fun in a lot of schools a lot of roads a lot of spend a lot of

money in the pockets for the states cool so i just i want to be clear on one thing that i want to hop into a little outside the box question that i'm generally just uh curious about and i don't know how i feel about it and i i want to be clear like i'm a sports guy i'm a competitive guy like all this stuff is resonating with me and i'm thinking about my friends from home like i i don't know that anyone's there yet but like they could they could get there you know and it's it's scary to think about someone kind of burning down their personal wealth just over a game but anyway um so our promises one we will make sure that everyone has access to brian or knows how to find him obviously that's probably a lot for him to take on um what other resources like i just want to go

back to that question about the family just starting out just looking for something like is there anything that you have found on a more altruistic level that has been i heard education i heard um you know starting with the family and then working towards the the identified i don't know what you call them i guess patient in this case um yeah yeah so i mean there's the infrastructure of Gammonon is great. I mean, but it's spread very thin, like just a couple meetings in the city

from my understanding. Sometimes, like, a lot of times in Gamblers Anonymous, they'll basically work at the same time. So it'll be like a GA meeting going on at the same time as a Gammonon meeting. But not enough. I kind of lean on some of those,

like the New Canaan Family Support Group or like family restored out of Massachusetts. Local. local, yeah, local families helping families type of stuff. And just, you know, it's, there's, just like my parents, they, they kept it in. They didn't tell anyone extended family. And, you know, I think there's a parallel process there. Like, you know, they felt a lot of shame about it and they didn't want to talk about it.

And I think the more those families don't feel unique. I mean, yes, the other thing is like in the state of Connecticut, if you call the Connecticut Council on Problem Gambling, they will help not only a problem. gambler, but they'll also help a family member. They'll give them counseling. So depending on where you are, they're going to break into, I mean, great, great organization. So, yeah, I mean, just call those numbers. There's professionals. The state of New York, they have, like, I think it's over, like, 180 internationally certified gambling counselors that I think will work with both the families and the individuals. Nice. Yeah, I mean, dude, it feels heavy. It feels like

there's a lot of weight on you. I want to acknowledge just the power in you coming here today and talking so openly about this. I mean, obviously it's going to take a shitload more. Brian Dolan to really start to make impact, but I know we've talked about doing some stuff together, which I'm excited about. My last kind of, I don't know if I call it a fun question, but, you know, when I think about gambling, I think about Pete Rose. You know, and like this guy has been banned from baseball for however many years for betting on himself. where do you stand on players today betting on themselves, like in a game, on themselves? I mean, I think against themselves is a different story, but I mean, it's like, you know.

Yeah, I mean, it's everyone else is doing it. And everyone in the stands is doing it. Why can't I? Like, that would be my perspective. If I was a professional athlete, I think Epic Risk Management is also a great resource. they educate they partner with all the leagues and give them education um yeah i mean pete rose i feel like has a has a strong case right now to be like why did you why did you ban me when you're now like co-signing this left and right and the thing i'll i'll further say that is

really scary and all this is like people i think who aren't like fully in it or never lived it or you know it's just talk gambling a lot um they think about those like point-shay scandals, right? But it's like, it's information, man. Like there's, so you think about a small college, like a temple or a, you know, Villanova. Yeah. So it's like, but it's not even just like if a kid gets involved, it's like if you have the information, like, you know, I remember getting a call. I had a buddy at UMass back in the day. And he, you know, he was tight with like the star shooting guard. And he's like, man, him and I were drinking until 4 a.m. He's not going to play well at noon. You know, I got on the call with the bookie. And, you know, like, it's.

It's not even like the players need to be involved. It's like the information around that is valuable, just like trading in stocks and and all that stuff, you know. It's wild. So you're not going to answer the question. Should they? Yeah, I know, I'm deflecting. It's all right.

We'll leave it there. I don't need any clickbait on your stance on whether Jalen Hurts should be able to bet on himself in the Super Bowl. All right. So my, I mean, look, my biggest takeaway is we have a lot of work to do. Yeah. Some scary shit. I think the fact that we're talking about it is a great first step. And, you know, I just, I appreciate your vulnerability.

Congratulations on all the good work you're doing. And I guess one more question would be just if you, like, what are the signs? What are the signs that someone's going down a dark path when it comes to gambling? Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think first and foremost, it's, you know, at the college level, We look at, like, you know, grades, attendance, I think more and more, like, agitated. I think it's because so many people are doing it, it's hard to see it at points. But I think, you know, your son's constantly calling you for books three times in a semester. Like, that's a problem, right?

Yeah, so I think some financial oversight and some honest dialogue. But what I'm really looking for, it feels like every time I start working, with someone new, it's like this person knows more about sports than anyone I've ever met. And then the person before, you know, and the next person is like more and more of like an encyclopedia. And I think it raises like a bigger question around like sports as a whole, right? Like we look at it as such like a great thing. There's another side to it. So that's one of my big warning signs is like unhealthful, you know, just so obsessed with all things. sports and you can get it 24-7 Twitter you know you know so that's a that's a big warning sign and just

yeah that's right