The Zac Clark Show - Building a Media Empire: Betches Co-Founder Jordana Abraham on Humor, Mental Health, and Life Online

Episode Date: December 17, 2024

In this episode of The Zac Clark Show, Jordana Abraham, co-founder of Betches, shares how she and her college roommates turned a satirical blog into a full-fledged media empire with over 10 million followers. Jordana talks about the power of humor in building connections, reducing feelings of isolation, and tackling real-life challenges like mental health and modern dating. Zac and Jordana explore her journey of building Betches as three recent college graduates driven by instinct and a desire to create humorous, poignant, and provocative content for women. They discuss how the brand has grown alongside its audience and the realities of balancing public success with personal challenges. Jordana opens up about a toxic relationship that led her to therapy, the struggles of life online in 2024, and why communication and self-awareness are essential in any relationship. With humor, honesty, and a lot of insight, this episode explores what it takes to grow a community—and a media empire—one meme at a time. Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right, welcome back to the Zach Clark Show. I'm really touched with today's guest that you would be here, Jordana, Abraham, who was one of the co-founder of Betches. You guys are massive. Thank you. And welcome and welcome. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I love what you're doing.

I think this is such a cool concept, and I'm just excited to be a part of it in a small way. Yeah. I mean my first question is honestly like yeah what like why give us a shot like why I mean this podcast right is not your typical we're not a comedian we're not comedians we're not funny you know we're talking about serious stuff like we really pride ourselves on creating an environment for people to really tell their stories so I'm just curious why you said yes I mean I think there's a lot of overlap in what you know like betches obviously like very humor forward but I think when we're at our best what we're doing is we're making people

feel less alone. We're making people feel like other people are going through kind of like the weird things that sometimes people think is just them. And I mean, that's, if you think about like a meme, like the concept of like a really good meme, if you're bringing down to like the simplest thing that we do, why you want to share that is because it captures like a feeling that you feel like someone else would understand and you send it to them and it's like something without words. And I think that like when we're at our best, that's what we're really doing. We're connecting people, we're making them feel less alone. It's very, it's like mental health without necessarily being directly mental health. It's like mental health through laughter. Right.

Yeah. Yeah, no. I mean, I love that, right? Like, for me, it's all about identification. And when Jay, who's one of our producers said you were coming on, I was, I was honored because we are, we're small, we're nimble. And like you see, we kind of bootstrapped our studio. And it looks great. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Looks a very. It looks a very. Very professional, I think. We're trying to push these conversations out into the world. So you started Bech's in 2011, right? Yes.

When you guys, it was you and your two college roommates or at Cornell. Yeah, it was my two, me and my two friends, roommates. We all grew up together, same town on Long Island. And it started actually just kind of like as a way, again, like not everything is like sort of like mental health adjacent, I think, even if we didn't think of it. it that way at the time. So it starts off like making fun of all of the things that we do that are like kind of ridiculous. You're kind of like this doesn't feel like super healthy. You're right. But like we don't want to be. And at that time that's like college partying and like Greek life

and all those things. But you don't want to be like creating social commentary and being like a hater. At that time, especially we're in it. We're like college seniors. So this started really just like as a satire to kind of like make fun of like these. these habits which seemed, you know, which we knew were like not healthy or right, but we were like commiserating through humor on them. Yeah. And so, yeah, so what was the first thing that you guys kind of did? I mean, was there, was there Instagram them or like what was like the, okay, the first idea?

Because I'm always fascinated in like a founder's story. Yeah, so we started off as just like a blog, like very 2011. Handwritten or like a on like a WordPress blog like anonymous because we thought we were going to get jobs after again we're like seniors in college um and it just started off as like a parody site like um kind of like uh you know like Tucker max was really big they had what they used to call like frat tire right which were they they show all these like you know dushy college frat guys and like that was kind of like a glorified thing at the time and we were like there's not really like a voice for the what is the female version of this look like in 20 in 2011 um there's not really much

out there for women that's not like kind of cheesy and a little like just doesn't seem authentic so we wanted to write about like what felt real and that's where the blog was born and when did you when did you I mean for those you listening like they're fucking massive I mean you have like something close to 10 million followers on Instagram I mean tons of podcasts and content that's going out every day which you know is is is the goal and the dream for for someone like you I think and it's allowed you to have a cool existence, right? I think it's fair to say. But when did you know that you were on to something? When did you, when did the three of you look at each other and like, oh, shit, this is real?

Right. I think like a, literally like six weeks after we, and again, we started this our second semester senior year. So we didn't have much to do. We were just kind of like messing around. Started as a total joke. And then we put it on one person's Facebook wall. Again, very 2011. Right. I love it. And it just kind of like went by. viral. And then we had gotten this email from like a Hollywood producer again. And we're like, I'm 21 at the time. And she was like, my daughter showed me your site. I think it would make like a great TV show or like I think we could you turn it into something. And this didn't actually wind up working out at all. But I think when we got that email, we were like, oh my God, like someone

who's like in some sort of position of like power somewhere in like media thinks this is cool like maybe let's just see where we could take this um and someone had put us in touch with someone's like sib sister put us in touch with like an agent um at one of the agencies and she was like it would she thinks she thought it would make a great book and so she encouraged us to like post every day um and right she helped us write a book proposal and we sold the book proposal i think like the fall after we graduated so we were like and we sold it to the time and his chuster which was like I think for our parents, who were probably, like, had no idea what we were even talking about. We were talking about, like, a blog or anything like that, content on the internet.

I think that felt, like, legitimizing enough for them to be like, all right, like, see where it goes. Yeah, let's go all in. Yeah. I love it. Can I ask, so is the premise, are you, when you guys started, were you focused on kind of like lifting women up? Is that or bringing women together? Is that? I would say at 21, definitely not.

Okay. Like I don't think that was, I think that was like a something that sort of, we thought it would just be like funny for our group of like 10 friends and, you know, maybe some other people like in adjacent circles because we thought that was like the only, those were the only people who would even understand what we were talking about. Right. But then when it went like viral, I think we started to notice that there were just so many people who had like the same experiences who had similar, uh, college experience who could relate to this, who like under. It was tough in the beginning because some people. people didn't understand that it was like satire. It was like actually making fun of ourselves and those people. And some people thought it was like a Bible or like a way to be. And we don't actually know anything. So especially at 20, at 21. So it was like a weird place to be where you're

sort of writing, you kind of have a lot of power and that you have this huge audience. But like not everyone fully gets it. And it's a little dangerous when people don't understand that it's a joke or don't understand that like we're not really promoting these behaviors. We're kind of just like making fun of them but also saying we're not like above them we're doing it with you but but there's also like a level of um it's like not totally right right yeah yeah no i the reason i mean the reason i asked that question right is i had a therapist that i was talking to uh earlier on the show and we were talking about women and i she said this thing that that hit me right between the eyes she kind I said, you know, being a woman in today's world is hard.

You know, you go to the gym and you're supposed to be home with the kids. You know, you cook a meal. You're supposed to be out with friends. You go to work. You're supposed to, you know, like there's just like, and I kind of said to her, I hear you. And I also see this bizarre thing. And maybe it's social media or maybe I'm scarred, but where women are almost not lifting up other women or like there's this cat.

catiness yeah i mean yeah i don't where's that where does that come from like there's so much talk about mental health i'm just like where right i think that i mean it's i totally agree with that statement i think a lot of the times like the people who you get and again i've lived on the internet since i'm like 21 so as like myself so i've you become a little numb to like all the feedback you get on the internet i'm sure you being on uh you know a public figure being on the bachelor could see the same thing like once you start getting everyone's opinion it can be very overwhelming, but a lot of the times, um, for women, like all the negative comments I get are from other woman. So it is funny. It's crazy, right? Right. Which I think is like,

I think there's this like underlying competitive thing or like maybe it's some people would say it's the patriarchy pushing everyone against each other to distract them from other things. I don't know if that's true. But I do think, I don't think that's unique to today's times though. I think that there's like and and on the internet in general I think people want to feel validated that they're doing it right and so when someone does something differently than them it can feel like a threat or even when someone thinks differently from them it can feel like a threat and you can feel like just because you act this way and you like this way doing something this way that means you're saying that all other ways are bad and some people do say that and I don't think that's right like that is

kind of how you get likes and views on the internet is by having this like extremely strong point of you no one's watching the moderate takes no one really cares about them right so people feel like encouraged to have these like very intense viewpoints when really most things are in between yeah i mean i feel like from i agree completely and for me i feel like as someone who has a platform and i don't know if you've experienced this there's just you got to be real you got to be authentic and you got to be willing to have an opinion that not everyone's going to agree with and kind of like lean into that shit, you know? And that's, that's hard in today's world because everyone has an opinion.

It's usually not 100% aligned with maybe what you're thinking. Right. But I mean, it really serves to divide us, you know, like it just feels like every, like, because there's like this war for likes or attention or like views or visibility. People are forced to have these extreme viewpoints when like, that's not really a healthy way to be, to be too extreme really in any, to be like too enthusiastic. about any one take is kind of dangerous and it's interesting I mean even like today is a network recording this on election day right and I think I've been bombarded with like you've been I'm

sure you too like texts and ads and like all these things um you see them on on like TV all these ads and the ads are like so vicious honestly like on both sides they're so vicious to each other and it honestly reminds me my parents divorce because I'm like we like collectively when did that happened when I was nine okay um and like we collectively um like Americans are like the children of like this country and these are supposed to be like our leaders and they're not like protecting you they're not trying to like make you feel safe and good they're trying to like scare you into like taking their side um and I just think it's like it just sucks for the culture like that's just not the way I don't think like the discourse used to happen like you see video clips

from like debates from 30 years ago and the people are like saying I you know, I don't agree with you on that, but like, here's why I think it's different. And now it's just like not, you can't just, I can't just have a different opinion than you. If we have a different opinion, you have to be like evil. Yeah. And it's, I mean, so to your point, right, and I'm curious, I want to know, I mean, a lot's going through my head right now, but, but for me, right, it's funny because it, it starts at the top. So you have these two presidential candidates that are very polarizing.

they're like at each other's throats and then I wake up to DMs of like are you going to share who you voted for are you going to you're going to like put it out there did you like and people are like all up in it like there's no there's no privacy you know it's not it's not only like there's this expectation once you're in the public eye that you were going to share everything with everyone and that that's just not possible like my my mental health would be shot totally and it's just like why why do people who are not involved in politics who are not studied in that who were not like that's not their thing like why do they why why why does anyone mean care what people like you or me think about they shouldn't because like we're not the people

who were like fully in this 100% red on all the issues like there's like a there feels like there's a need to um create a divide like if you're not creating a divide somehow then you are like irrelevant or you're using your power for bad because you're not standing up or everything I think the idea that you need everyone needs to stand up for every single cause regardless of how much they know about it regardless of like you know if they have any relation to it at all just because people are telling them to is crazy to me yeah yeah that's wild can i ask about your parents divorce sure yeah i mean it's been a bit i've had time to process okay therapy works right shout out therapy uh do you find that experience like how much

of that experience do you feel like formed who you are into your your adolescence and your youth and like as a young woman and starting to date yeah i mean huge huge part of it i think like my parents been married so my my dad's been married twice my mom's been married like five or six times um they they got divorced when i was nine and um i would say like that's totally inspired like i never they didn't have it they had a very unhealthy relationship i had never really witnessed a healthy relationship growing up i had a lot of really unhealthy relationship tendencies. And I think part of like you up that I,

when I started that or like my fascination was relationships was like, what actually does make a healthy relationship? Like what does that actually look like? What, you know, because everyone assumes like, everyone assumes that once you find the person, then it's like all easy, but that's actually where the work starts,

especially if you didn't grow up with someone modeling how to be in a healthy relationship. So for me, even like getting into a relationship, with my now husband, I had so much stuff to like work out as to like the healthy way to actually communicate things as to like how to express my needs. And not just from like my own issues probably with my own parents themselves, but just from never seeing what that looks like. You know, it's never seeing how to fight fair or healthy. Right. Yeah. I mean, so much of it comes

back to just the willingness to have a hard conversation and really communicate like what what I'm feeling and not be attached to how you're going to react or respond and that's where for me like we were talking offline before the show and I feel like that's what that's what therapy has done for me it's it's I always laugh when someone said like I didn't like my therapist right or they weren't good and I always kind of turn around to them and say like well what did you bring to it like were you willing to really let your guard down and like do some ego deflation and actually talk about this thing even if it feels really small to you that's like eating you up Right. Well, it's funny. I mean, my sister, my older sister. She's a therapist, right? She's a therapist. We have a podcast together where we, you know, we answer emails and they get like the therapist perspective. And then I like to say I'm not certified in any way at all, but I've been giving advice on the internet.

You know the experience. I've been giving advice for like years. I'm not a therapist either. Like, like my shit is like, I'm a heroin addict. I'm in recovery. I've helped a lot of people. I've seen some things that worked. I've seen some things that haven't worked. And like this is a culmination of all that. right and you're just you just like me are speaking from your own experience and I think that like that's sort of like and that's sort of like the point of the podcast it's like what if you had like a real mental health professional to like tell tell about your issue with your mother or your friend or your husband and then what if you had someone who like felt like they were like living in the real world with you who's like yeah I'm not going to probably like say the affirmation or like I'm probably going to make like the less, not the healthiest choice that you suggest somewhere in between and like where can those two forms of advice meet to feel like there's something super

tangible. Yeah. Yeah, it's gross. I mean, all this shit's gross. I mean, like, really learning who we are and where we come from and like your parents and like, you know, for me just, I had a very nice upbringing and I had a beautiful family. But as you grow older, you start to like see little, I mean, growing up, right? Like we start to know things that we didn't know. And, Right. I realize your parents are people. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Oh, man. It's so good. And so when you, when did you like, so we're here, we're talking about mental health. We're talking about the importance of that. Obviously in 2024, it's a much bigger topic.

You know, I feel like sometimes it's almost swaying like the other way. There's a lot of people talking about it, but there's not a lot of solution. And I feel like, obviously, with Betches and the work that you're doing and your podcast, you have a lot of ability to really. impact the world like you really do have this you know megaphone um when did you start to give a shit about mental health when did you make it a part of your life like why like yeah yeah um i started seeing a therapist i remember it because i went on my right after my 26th birthday um because i i was in this like seven year like situation ship with this like toxic thing with this guy that i just like couldn't stop couldn't get out it felt like i mean i don't

want to compare it because I obviously don't know any like really what addiction is like but it felt like I was addicted to this person 100% or bad for me I just kept going back to them and I was like so frustrated that I couldn't break this cycle that and I just kept doing it over and over again even though I knew it was it was bad and I think that's what drove me to like first see a therapist and this is while bet you're growing the business right this is all happening while you're kind of creating this platform totally yeah and I'm like 26 year years old and I was just like I can't keep doing this. I can't keep like and you know it also like you feel like your friends are tired of hearing you repeat the same patterns over and over again. They're not by

the way if you're listening keep talking about it. And yeah that was like my my opening into that and it wasn't like nothing is ever linear I wasn't like magically cured of that overnight but I think with enough years of therapy with like consistency in that I saw how my whole worldview, like, you know, you just learn to challenge your whole, like, worldview in the way that you think, everyone thinks that the way that they are, the way they grew up is sort of like the way that everyone thinks. So it's just, it's always good to have someone be able to challenge that. And my sister who's a therapist, we talk about this a lot when you were just talking about

how, you know, people who quit therapy or don't like their therapist, like they're not really doing their own work. A lot of people, if you do therapy to kind of just like keep doing what you're doing, but just, Because she says she gets a lot of patients who just kind of want to keep telling the same story over and over again. And she's like, well, that's fine if that's what you want to do. But usually, like, for therapy to work, you have to be uncomfortable. And so when people quit, a lot of the times because they're uncomfortable or because they don't feel like they're not getting what they think that they want. But the whole point is really that you need to get something that you haven't gotten before that makes you uncomfortable.

That doesn't feel like great immediately. yeah the truth is sometimes hard to to see and look and i mean i'm assuming you do not marry this guy right like he is long in your past like this was a a situation ship that ended right no yeah and it took me like a while to get out of it even with therapy but like i got there yeah and looking back on that do you do you look at that as like a pivotal moment for you to to show you that okay you put a little bit of work in you you you look in the mirror you start you look at the mirror you start to realize like okay the truth about this situation is that's just not healthy for you like screw the other person it's not even about them it's about you and the way that you're feeling

right and then you come out of that and there's a weight that's lifted right i mean you start to feel like yourself again is that yeah i think that was a big part of it i think it was like learning to like break a cycle that felt comfortable and a lot of this you know a lot of the romantic situations we find ourselves in are because they feel like home and like unfortunately for me like feeling like home was kind of feeling like inconsistent um like affection and withdrawal and that felt like good in a way yeah um so it's kind of like learning to learning to like men who are like consistent and stable and also kind of like building up your self-esteem to root to realize that like you deserve someone who's like that because a lot of times people accept what they think they

deserve yeah and sometimes people are like I don't you know is that am I worthy of that even yeah I mean, most men suck. They do. I mean, like, and I'm a guy. Like, I acknowledge that. And, like, women are very... Yeah, right, true. Like, what the hell is, like, these...

I got married at 25, so I have no room to talk. Oh, you did. That marriage did not work out. But, you know, I was still on my way to, you know, a long and illustrious heroin shooting career. But, like, you know, I digress. But, yeah, I mean, just like, I... I mean, I'm 40 now, right?

And even, like, the men in my life that are, that I'm closest to, there's just this resistance to doing the work and to really, because life happens fast, right? You have kids and you develop these relationships. And the last thing you want to do is really take that time to go, like, nurture this relationship, this marriage, this partnership, or whatever it is. Well, I think so much in our culture feels like you can get immediate gratification in so many ways. almost everywhere like food um you know yeah food sex drugs alcohol things anything and the concept of therapy even like you know ozempic like the concept of therapy is is a slow burn so like i understand why people are resistant to it because it's not like you can go to one therapy session and you're good right like it really does take a lot of consistency it's very slow it's not very

linear, like, even with the situation I was telling you about with, like, the reason I started therapy, like, I didn't, like, never see that guy again after I went into, after I had my first session. Like, it took me, like, a while after that. It's like a slow, like, deprogramming almost of, like, you know, the thoughts that aren't serving you. And I think that that's just, like, in our culture, it just doesn't, sometimes it feels like, all right, like, let's, like, am I cured? Like, let's go. Well, it's scary, because our guts are typically right. Like, Typically, we know what we are feeling and what the right answer is. And that's not always aligned with the way that we're living or in a relationship or whatever

it is that might be kind of off. It's about taking that next step and then actually taking the action, which can take months, years. I mean, many, many, many moons to get to that point. So obviously, you get out of that relationship. And so do you, like, have you found how has the growth, because I'm just curious as an entrepreneur and someone who, you know, now has employees and more people and more things to worry about. For you and for other entrepreneurs, I have two questions, kind of like, one, you're obviously

at the head of an organization that's very public-facing. So how have you, like, what is, have you made conscious decisions about how you put yourself out into the world? Yeah. I mean, I think that, like, just from doing these podcasts for so long, like, I'm already out there. Right. And I think I've focused more in on content, sort of honed in on that, and, like, found the business people that are right and, like, more skilled than I am in those positions in order to, like, because I'm never going to be as good at accounting as someone, you know what I mean, someone that we're going to get who, like, that's their passion, that's what they do. Like, there's people who, who, like, love spreadsheets.

That's not me. Yeah. So it's, it's been interesting to sort of evolve over the years and be able to focus in on, like, what I actually. actually feel like I'm bringing to the table and like really honing in on that and doing less of the things that I'm not really doing as well as other people. And you, so, but like with that, I mean, obviously you have your own little following and there's like, is there, is there women that come to you for, like, how do you handle the stress or how do you navigate your mental health and people coming to you and asking for, I mean, because you're like, you're out there.

You're talking about relationships and giving advice all the time. And I'm sure at some point that becomes overwhelming. Unless it hasn't, I don't know, then tell me how you did that. Honestly, relationship stuff, like, because I'm, there is a sense, like, because I'm in a healthy relationship, because I'm married and it's, like, very stable relationship. I don't feel, like, I do feel, like, not going through the thick of it, so I don't feel, like, burdened or bothered by going through those questions. Like, fertility is another thing that I talk about.

I had another podcast just talking about, like, my own, like, my own, like, like fertility experience trying to be pregnant. And that I'm still going through. So that feels like, that feels very much more sensitive to me. And that, like, you know, that's almost why I talk about it a little bit less. You have to make your own boundaries based on like what's triggering and what, where I am mentally. Like, I do feel like it's my job to, it's my, it's not other people's job not to trigger me.

It's my job to like become a person who can handle a trigger because you can't really control that. Yeah. So, but there are a certain. topics that um like do make me uncomfortable or i don't always want to talk about or do feel really personal because when you're physically going through it it's just harder yeah but your experience has probably helped so many people you know yeah and that's like the nice part of it yeah that's like that's what we're doing here i mean some someone is going to listen to this episode and take great strength from you know your story you know going through this divorce at at nine

years old and coming out on the other side of that and then getting into this relationship that they're very much like mirrored, right? Your parents' relationship or whatever that was to you. And doing all that while growing a business and ultimately ending up in a relationship that's really healthy. And that's, I think that's all we want, right? We all just want to be in a healthy relationship, whatever that means to. Right. Even if that healthy relationship, healthy relationship could be like healthy relationship with your friends healthy relationship with your parents healthy healthier relationship with your kids like our whole life is our i think ester perl who said that like the quality of your relationships is like the

quality of your life yeah there's so i mean there's so much talking around the divorce rate right like i mean what about so fucking just like any relationship any friendship business partnership yeah i mean these are hard you know if you're not and people don't think of them as like the most important things to like maintain in their life they think about like you know How am I, like, I want to look thin or I want to be rich, like, but like the things, the real happy people are people who just have really strong, intimate, like, non-superficial relationships. And people just, I think it, people just don't think of that as, like, the thing that's going to make them the happiest.

It's so crazy. I mean, social, I mean, like, I have a buddy that lives up in Vermont on a couple acres, has a couple kids, his wife, they just kick it. I'm so jealous of him. Yeah, it's like off the grid. I just want to be him. And he'll chime in every once, like, once every two weeks on the text chain. And he's up, what's up, boys?

You know, like, just like, how do I get that energy, you know, just not giving a fuck about anything? Yeah, and you could tell, like, you could tell the difference between someone who's, like, online and, like, offline. I think I just saw that somewhere. It was like, I forget what the interview was. But one, it was like an actress telling someone who, with someone who was a little older and she was saying, like, how do you not compete with all these other?

like actresses or whatever like how do you not do you get like anxious about them getting things that you're not and she's like I'm not on social media so I don't compete with anyone like I don't I don't not measuring myself against how everyone else is doing because you're not seeing it constantly yeah I mean that's that's the dream I mean I don't I don't know maybe it's just for me it's just not even have it or need it or I mean it's like these studies you you know you talk to people their deathbed and they're like none of that shit matters like it's the time we spend with family and friends and right and that's why it's so hard to be alive in 2024 is because there's like it that sort of feels like a requirement to be online yeah I mean and it's hilarious you have to be

online but we're in a loneliness epidemic right like in my work we're seeing overdose numbers skyrocket we're seeing death by suicide numbers skyrocket I mean hundreds of thousands of people and those people are all dying alone you know they don't have they don't have they don't have other people in in their lives right like it's just it's so they so they turn to drugs and alcohol or self-harm or you know this destructive behavior that ultimately ends in a in a really sad way and so there's like the downside of social media and then there's you know what you're doing at betches which is creating a community that's bringing people together do you guys do like live events you do do we do live podcasts we just did a book club which was cool okay um we've done like

mixers singles mixers um yeah we do a we do some career stuff it's a do you uh do you like pride yourself on getting people are you like a dating uh like connecting people a matchmaker do you like yeah um i would love to be like my i met my husband through a setup so just or get like old school like you two have to like like my yeah my friend from college was dating his friend from high school no shit silver is not dead i love it yeah and they set us up and to me like that was like I mean, that's the biggest thing that I guess ever happened in my life because that's my, you know, we're married now. So to me, it's like if I can, if I could pass that on, that's like the dream.

I think that's like the greatest. If you, honestly, even if someone, you have someone, someone has a good three months with someone, I think that's a win. But that with the bar is these days like a three months is like, you know. I think that I think people hate those three month things because they always feel like they're like, it's upsetting when they end to someone usually. but I think it's like and I remember going through them in therapy and being so like distraught over them and I remember my therapist was like I actually hope you have more of these because the more of them you have the more experience you have dating more you get to see what you like and you don't like and the more you realize when it ends that like it's fine there'll be another one yeah I mean for me it's like I am in therapy every week talking to my therapist about how do I just not care you know like whatever whatever it is and like you know like you know like you I mean just like my in relationships for me like historically like I don't do good with change

and ending and starting and like all that kind of stuff has always been really hard for me because I'm just like at my core I'm just this huge empath and I'm super sensitive and I just want to love everyone and I don't want things to like change or end or be different right and so I think there's like I have buddies that you know they can run around New York City and have one night stands and like not think twice about it and I don't know maybe I'm just just, I mean, on the other side of that. I think people, I think most women would prefer to hear what you're saying. Yeah, I'm a giant prude, you know, it's like, I think that, I think, I mean, I think that's a little healthier, I mean, but that's not, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, is, uh, I mean, does your husband, is he open to therapy or open to, like, do you guys communicate well? Is that?

He's, I mean, I think, he's not opposed to, like, the idea of therapy. He is not in therapy himself. Right. I think if he, if something happened, um, if you went to him and said, hey, what's your husband's same? Mike. Mike, like Mike, I'd like to do a couple of sessions of a couple, like he would be. Yeah, he would do it. And I think that like that, um, to me, like, it's funny because like we've had conversations where he's been like, you know, he didn't really fight with like exes and we fought. But I was like, well, that's why you're your exes because like you have to, you have to communicate through like problems. Like that's sort of like, and I think. that's maybe a thing I've brought to the relationship is like I'm obsessed with communication,

probably to a point where it's a little annoying. But I think I've gotten him to understand, like, why that's so important. Yeah. I mean, I just, and I think communication for me over the years, we just, we learn to be, like, this never works, like pointing the finger at someone or you need to do, like we learn as we evolve as humans and we learn what works in a relationship and how to communicate with the people we love, I think. And then if that doesn't work, ultimately those relationships probably fizzle out sadly. Right. And I mean, a lot of the times we assume, like there's so many

different ways to communicate. And sometimes people assume that like there's, that the way that they do it is the only right way. Yeah. I'm very verbal communicator like intensely. Like I'm very much about like speaking through, like talking through stuff. But a lot of men are not like that. A lot of men are like, I want to show you, I care, not by telling you, like, how great you are every day. I want to show you by, like, showing up, or I want to, you know, put it in writing, or I don't communicate, like, I, or whatever, like, those love languages are, other things. I think people, it can be offensive, it can feel offensive when really it's just different. So I think a lot of, like, the early years of partnership are kind of just figuring out, like, how you, how you operate in the world and how I operate in the world and how, like, those things can come together in a way. that feels good for both of us if it can and if it can't you might be too far apart and just not a good

match yeah have you guys talked about kind of this idea of like gender responsibility or like obviously you're a successful woman right and if that's like threatening to him or you know I believe that you guys are on your path and you will continue to build this life and when that happens like what this idea of like okay the stay at home like it's 2024 right like like like the the things have changed, right? And I think a little bit of what you were alluding to is like the guy, and I've been there at points in my life where like I go to work and I work hard all day and I make the paycheck and then I come home and I want to be applauded for that.

And it's like a nonverbal thing that I do. But I want to, I want the love because that's what I was taught to do. You go make the money and you take care of the people at home. But that's changed. And I would imagine for you, I mean, you've started this business at 21. you're 33 or 34, 35 now. And I don't know, that could be threatening for guys. Guys are jealous and weird.

Yeah. I mean, I think that comes, if you are jealous or weird or you kind of feel like, you know, you need to be the star of the relationship. I think that's like a little bit of an insecurity. Yeah. But also like, you know, if you want to be the person in the relationship that, that feels like the more dominant, more alpha person, that's your right. I don't think that that's that that's like a bad thing on its own.

Some people like some people prefer to be, you know, led or like they don't like making decisions. Right. I don't think that like it's inherently wrong to be one way or the other. It's just, I think the key is finding someone that's a match for you. So, you know, I get, we get emails even from women who are like are men intimidated by my success. To me, it's not like men, like all men. It's like guys who are intimidated or guys who don't like that you make more money than them or guys that like,

feel like they want to be the main breadwinner, fine, they're not, like, they're not for you, but that's not every, that's not every person. Like, you can definitely find people who are super proud of you and super excited and don't think of things competitively like that. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. What do you, like in that vein, what are women struggling to, like, what are women struggling with today? Or what are, what do you see women having a hard time be vulnerable about or what like yeah what's the world telling you um i think it's it can feel especially in a in a city like new york where we're at yeah um that you can feel like commodified you can with all the apps like it always feels like there's another option around the corner

and for some reason i feel like that seems that's a little skewed in men's favor because they're not necessarily looking to look to settle down or not all of them obviously but many of them or not as big of a rush as a lot of women. So I think with the apps, it can feel like you're just kind of like a face on a screen. You're not a real person. You can talk to someone for two weeks and then never speak to them again.

And it doesn't feel like a big deal. So I think with that's really like the big issue. But I also think that it's also a great time to be a woman dating. Like think about the choices and the options that we have now versus however many years ago. Like I think about options and there's too many options and people complain about that. But then I think of this story that my grandmother told me from like her mother who's like in a stettel in like Poland.

And her father was like, well, you're going to marry like Haim. He's like here. And she's like, well, I don't want to marry him. And then he says to her like, okay, well then you have two choices. You can marry him or you can go like drown yourself in the river. Oh, wow. Come from a little bit of a dark family. Really dark.

but I'm not saying like having too many options or not having none at all like I do think there's like every generation has its own that's obviously that's like an extreme dark example they got married by the way that's why I'm here um no shit it's a love story anyway that's as you can maybe maybe we should go back to that maybe dysfunctional relationships in my family started started 100 years ago um but the point is I think that like no everyone thinks that someone else every city they're the worst city to date and everyone thinks that like a different time was better for them and really it's like just a trade-off of different things some things are better some things are worse it's all kind of you know trade-off yeah i mean the other thing now is i feel like

you get caught i mean you run around in this society these days i mean there's so many ways to get to people and all these stories you hear about when men or women are out there cheating or misbehaving i mean it it typically comes out probably faster than it used to but because everyone is connected in some crazy way. Right. You know, like, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's very hard to be anonymous these days. Harder to cheat, though.

That's good. It is. Yeah. I mean, you know. Harder to have a second family than it was in the 50s. It's crazy shit. More expensive. Definitely more expensive.

Definitely harder to pull up. But that shit, like, was real. Yeah. Do you have a couple more questions, then I'll let you get out of here. But do you have a thought on, and maybe this is like the New York City culture or I'm just fascinated by it this idea of they're laughing because I ask all therapists about this but it's fucked like this old like open relationship thing like where right you know people are dating for five 10 15 years and they become you know sexually dormant or whatever and they like come to this agreement that they're going to go out and like have sexual other people but maintain their relationship or right I mean here's the thing like if it whatever if it works for people than it works for people. I find those things usually have more rules than a monogamous relationship. Right. Like there's, it's never like a free, it's never like

the free-for-all you think. Those things usually have like way more guidelines and rules and things like that because it's a much more like tumultuous thing. There's a lot more at stake. So I don't think it's like a solve to this feeling of like rules or marriage or like are restraining us. I think there's just a whole new set of rules. But again, if it works for people, if people can, like, find a way to make it work for them. We had Dan Savage on who was in an open relationship, or at least he was when we spoke to him. I think it was a few years ago. And, I mean, he's in a gay relationship.

I think that, like, he was saying it maybe works better in some cases or in some situations. And, again, I think it's an interesting thing. I'm not like, I'm never like, that's bad or that's good. I just think that there's like a lot more that goes into it than people think. And people think it's just like, all right, we're going to just like sleep with whoever we want. Well, I think, too, that's where social media comes in because everyone sees everyone else's relationships and everyone looks so happy. And they have this false sense of I'm doing it wrong or my relationship's not bad. And really, that's just a picture that they threw up at literally their best moment, right?

Like that's the photo they chose to make themselves look the happiest to the world. Yes. Again, it's like the highlight rule. And it's like that with business. I mean, you're talking about business a lot too. It's like you only see the big business milestones of anyone on the intro, the brand deals or the things that they're closing. You don't really see all the things where people fail. And you also don't see like every, you know, you say you're huge or you're big. And like everyone I think is always feeling like they're one, no matter how big they are, unless maybe they're Amazon. I feel like every, every business always feels. like, oh, like, because you can only see yourself from within. You can't, like, be an outsider looking in. So I think everyone is always kind of trying to get to that next level or get bigger or get to get more, more, more, because no one ever feels as successful as maybe someone else thinks they are from the outside. The city humbles you.

I mean, New York City. I mean, it's like. Small, big pond, big pond. Oh. I moved here from South Jersey and I, like, showed up in 2011 with, like, really bad time. Bahama gear like head to toe and like went to the gym for the first time in my like terrible underarmor like you know like workout outfit and uh looked around I was like holy shit this place is just filled with like beautiful people and like I'm fucked you know like yeah I mean that's why

it's so important to just like people to like stay in your lane and just like keep your eye on like you doing better than like you need to compete with yourself as anyone else but yes it's so incredible what you build I can't believe 80 employees like yeah amazing and you should be proud of yourself. Thank you. Very, very cool. Yeah. Last question. Thank you. It means a lot. And like having you on, it really touches me because just your willingness to just share a little bit of your story and talk about mental health and some of the things that as human beings we go through and people probably look at you and say she's got the perfect life, right? Like that's... I mean, so far, I think I have a great life that I love and I'm thankful for, but you know,

everyone has their issues and I definitely have that. Yeah. What do you tell? what advice do you give nine-year-old Jordana like what do you oh wow yeah um don't believe anything your parents say um let me think um you know I also I had a I have I'm one of nine siblings so I think it was easy for me to get like forgotten or like feel special or like feel like people were like really looking out for me and again nine siblings and chaotic parents divorce like like a bunch of marriages a bunch of kids um so i guess if i were to i think i would say like um that you are you are special and like you are you know deserving of like attention and um being cared for you're enough i would say yeah exactly you're enough yeah i think we all to a certain

degree kind of have those moments in life where we uh we don't feel like we're enough you know and that's why i think that's where i feel like a lot of you know other issues stem from it all it all usually boils back to like one kind of recurring theme yep and we'd love to repeat those things over and over until we end up like you in a healthy relationship or in a place in life we're really proud of who we are and what we've built and i hope that you take some of that away i mean like what you're doing is incredible. Thank you so much. It is. It's been very cool. Yeah. Jordana, Abraham, thank you so much for coming. Check them out. I mean, I probably don't have to tell you, too, because most people listening probably already are all over Betches and the work that you guys do. And I just like, I don't know,

just keep talking about mental health. Keep doing what you guys are doing, like making people fucking laugh. It's like, it's making a difference. It is. Thank you. You too. Keep doing what you're doing. You're helping so many people in a more directly tangible way, I think, that we are. Well, that's amazing. We need each other. Yeah, it's a good equation. Yeah, it's always fun to see someone who's like, has direct, direct impact. Yeah, we touch people from the screens from afar, but you're really like in the day to day, which is awesome.

Well, thank you and best of luck, and I'll be following you. I'll be root my ass off for you and, yeah, keep leveling up. Awesome. Thanks for Dana. Thanks.