The Zac Clark Show - Craig Robinson: From Bachelorette Fame to Saving Lives with the Marchman Act

Episode Date: June 3, 2025

Before he was a lawyer helping families navigate addiction treatment, Craig Robinson was living a double life—reality TV fame, courtroom success, and a cocaine addiction he kept hidden from everyone.In this honest, deeply personal conversation, Craig joins The Zac Clark Show to talk about what no one saw behind the camera: the collapse of his legal career, a suicide attempt in a Philadelphia condo, and the moment in a car with his father that finally cracked him open.He shares how asking for help was the first step in fighting his way back—and how sobriety transformed his life, his relationships, and his career. Today, he gives his legal work deeper meaning by using Florida’s Marchman Act to help families intervene when all other options have failed. This episode dives into the gray areas of recovery, what real change demands, and why sometimes love means making the hardest call of all.Connect with Zachttps://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclarkhttps://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release:[phone]releaserecovery.com@releaserecovery

All right, welcome back to Zach Clark. So, Zach Clark show you, I'll finish the intro. Anyway, we are today, I mean, you meet people in your life that you have a lot in common with. You check a lot of boxes, and some of them are boxes that, I don't know, we're proud to check or not, which is we were both on reality television show. But Craig Robinson, so Philly sports fan. Philly sports fan. In recovery.

In recovery. attorney working behavioral health care correct clinician right and went back out your degree yeah yeah

I'm a definitely I mean I'm an MSW so it's you know and OG 2010 bachelor yeah before internet

when it was like club appearances and old school it was uh no social media I mean there was social media but it was like

nowhere near what it is today I would do so you work I worked behavior One of the things that I struggle with, what's out, dude, first of all. Dude, it's great to be here. That's for having me on.

It's amazing. I had been looking forward to this. I really have. Because I, you know, everything that you just said, all the commonalities are, I mean, it's just so weird that, like, kind of, I remember following your story. And, you know, in 2020, I guess it was. Yeah. Because I was new in recovery at that point in time. And, you know, it was just unique to see somebody on the Bachelorette that was.

that was in recovery. So your story, I hadn't watched it in a long time at that point in time, but your story was really impactful to me, you know, early in recovery. So, wow. Thanks, dude. Yeah, I mean, I same to you. I mean, like I heard a lot. I came back from filming and, you know, we both went to Karen, which is a treatment center

that we both do a lot of work with now. And they, some of the, a lot of the people down there, got to me, Craig Robbins, got to me, Craig, got to me Craig. And like, at this point, there's a thousand people coming at me saying, I have to meet certain people and I'm like, all right, I'm going to get to it, you know, kind of thing. But we have connected over the past couple years, which has been, which has been cool. And what you're doing is wildly impressive. Likewise. Yeah. Yeah. So you weren't sober watching the show? When did you get sober? No, I got sober in 2018. I was on the show in 2010. So

there's a few years. No, I meant when you were watching his show, though. Oh, yeah, no, I was sober. He was sober. Yeah, two years. Wow. Cool. Jay's here. Hi, Jay. Hello. Hey, Jay. Hey, I share some commonalities as well with Craig. We're both alcoholics. We're both from both have 5-6-1 routes, South Florida. Yeah. His roots aren't 5-6-1.

I've got a 2.6-7. You do now. It's not roots, bro. How long have you been in Florida? Almost seven years. Seven years? All right. I wouldn't call those roots.

But if it's over 10, starting to root. Okay. Fine. Dick. Yeah, I am a dick. Anyway. Craig. So the thing I got to ask right off a jump is because I know like right now you're growing your business and we're going to get into all the backstory of it. And for me, having come off

the show and having had a career, like you were an attorney before you got sober, right? Yeah. For 10 years. So even before going on the show. Yeah. I was an attorney for two years before going on the show. Right. Trial? Yeah. Trial attorney? Trial attorney. And so when you decide, I mean, like, because one of the things that I've realized is that, like, yes, people say, like, oh, good timing. You went on the bachelor. Like, probably helped you so much, which, like, I think, yes. Ultimately, you throw everything in the middle of the table, going on the show, having been given a microphone, doing stuff like this has been very beneficial to release and our nonprofit and just the whole thing, the whole, you know, brand, the awareness stigma. However, there are certain situations where, you know, it can, it can work against me, which is this whole thing. whole almost stigma around reality television and the types of people that decide to do that. So I'm just curious, like, starting there, is like, has it worked against you at all in your work? Or do people kind of go home and Google? You'd be like, oh, this guy was on reality television? Like, well, now it's 15 years ago, right? So now it's kind of like, if I ever get

recognized, it's like, I mean, it's few and far between. So, I mean, most people that know me, quite honestly in South Florida, I don't even think no. I really don't. I mean, I don't talk about it. Like, I don't proactively mention it. I mean, I used to all the time. But I don't really talk about it. But I mean, like getting off of it and then going back into practicing law was really

challenging. I mean, because I was having this kind of double life going on where I was doing like club appearances at night and then I was in court the next day. And I'd have like judges, you know, making kind of side comments. during the case. Maybe my client knew that I had been on the show. Maybe they didn't. But it was almost like trying to keep those two worlds separate was really, really challenging.

So at some point, they just kind of blended together. And for me, I wasn't in recovery yet. So, you know, it was really hard. Honestly, it was really hard because my alcoholism and drug addiction was really ramping up. right after the show. I mean, in fact, in 2010, I went on in 2010. I mean, I got fired for my job as a lawyer in 2012. And at the time, I would have told you that that was all my boss. He was being an asshole. He was, you know, just not a nice guy. Looking back on that, that was directly related to my drug and alcohol use directly. Right. It was my behaviors that were

associated with my addiction. What did it look like? Because you were a trial lawyer, which is pretty intense right yeah it looks like this it looked like well 2012 and like i imagine there's just confusion right which i never and this might sound how it's up but i was never confused coming off the show about what i was going to do it was never confusing to me because i was sober and i was like this is what i am doing yeah this is my purpose is my passion i saw a lot of my friends and other people come off and be like i have this career i can also lean into like clubbing craig yeah yeah but you you like never you were interesting too zac because you never you didn't even know the show you never watched the show did you watch the show

no did you watch reality television at all zero no so you didn't get you didn't give two shits how did you even get on the show i had a friend i was in a relationship for like seven years we had broken up i was kind of depressed at that point in time and i had a roommate who was just like dude you got to get out of this depression i'm signing you up for the bachelorette one night went online filled out the application and then they called. Yeah. But I do nothing about it. Yeah.

Same with you. Yeah, no. I mean, I think it's helpful to some degree. But did you struggle with that? I mean, in 2012, were you like, I'm just going to lean into this public? So by 2012, it was kind of like, things were starting to fade. I actually was supposed to go on a spin-off show. It's called the Bachelor Pad at that point in time.

You probably don't even know what that is. No. But I think now it's Bachelor in Paradise. Yeah. so I was casted for that show and then some things happened that didn't allow me to go on that show do you want to talk about that or no obviously you don't have to not particularly I mean it was a I mean it's public talk about it in relation to how you're I mean I think it still is it was public it's it's public I mean that's how I know about but like talk about it in relation to your drug use

I think that's helpful yeah I mean just just I was making a lot of bad decisions that were directly related to my drug use like at that point i mean it was a relationship with the producer you know on the show at that point that i don't even know if you'd call it a relationship but it was um you know something that that got me essentially you know banned from being being on that show but uh just bad decision making i mean the things that we do when we're using um yeah being in a you know whatever uh being in any kind of a relationship relationship with a TV producer for the show that you're trying to go on is not really the greatest judgment in the world.

Yes and no. I mean, I don't know. If the relationship worked out and there was something there. I mean, like, not that it did, right? But you understand, I get it, dude. But I'm saying, like, I don't put the guardrails up around love. I mean, that's just, I don't, you know, yeah, I got it. Yeah, that's a strong word there.

That's like Bachelor talk right there, you know. I think I'm fun. falling in love with her. I mean, I said that. So let's put the stamp of credibility on this thing. Tell me about your work today and then I want to work back. Like clearly explains Craig Robinson today because I think if people are listening to this episode, that's the most important thing that I want them to hear is that you are doing this amazing work. And then I want to get into what was happening right before you kind of went on the show and then the eight years after that before you get sober must have been wild. So, um, so, um, so,

today. I mean, first of all, I wanted to start by saying, I'm married, I have a daughter, she's two. Her name's Stella. She's like me, 2.0. She is my mini-me. She is amazing. I mean, just, uh, and I'm saving her seat or you probably, I mean, she's definitely got some of the tendencies in my, between my wife and I, it's the history isn't, you know, great. Is your wife sober? She's not, but her, a lot of her family members. And by the way, if you're listening, save a seat is something that us in the recovery. circle kind of say when there's a young a young one who may be displaying very early on some of the the tendencies yeah yeah um i start there just because you know that's like that's my world you know

right now but i mean i i i so i'm an attorney still i'm licensed in florida in 2021 i started a law firm called robinson and casey uh we help families access treatment for addiction and mental health even when it feels out of reach, right? So what that means is if you have a family member who is either an addict or has a mental health condition, you can utilize the court system in Florida to ensure that they go to treatment and that they stay in treatment involuntarily. These would be scenarios where there's a lot of dangerous and risky behavior going on. Most of our cases involve a lot of overdoses, DUIs, criminal history.

aggressive and violent behavior, neglecting medical conditions, things of that nature. So all we do is help those families that have a loved one who needs to be in treatment but either won't go or will go but won't stay. And it's the Marchman Act? It's called the Marchman Act.

Yeah, it's a unique Florida law. It's only in Florida. It's only in Florida, but you don't need to be from Florida to qualify for it. You just need to be physically located in Florida. So we have a lot of families who are from other parts of the country or even the world that actually bring their loved ones to Florida,

sometimes under false pretenses to take advantage of the favorable law in Florida. I mean, it's so interesting because most of the questions I get pre, like when the client or patient isn't even that like pre contemplative stage, right? And the family's really worried about them and they're making really bad decisions. The question from the family is always, you know, can I force them? like can I physically force them to go to treatment and should I kick them out of our house? Like should I should I remove them from the premises and it's always a tough call, right? I mean, your clinical training probably helps you in this regard.

It does, but I mean, I'm also not, I'm still not, you know, it's, I'm still not in the best position to make a decision for the family, right? I can make a recommendation and sometimes it's one or the other. Sometimes it's either you have to do this core process or set boundaries. but you can't just keep doing the same thing that you've been doing and expect a different outcome. So from my perspective, when a family comes to us, sometimes that's the question. Do we hire this lawyer to actually force my loved one into treatment? Or do we just kick them out of the house and set that firm boundary and say,

until you stop using, we're just not going to be here for you. And I'd imagine that's where you can call a case manager and interventionist and some of the other folks you probably work with. Yes. You can't carry that whole. load of doing the legal work but also being the therapist and the well do they expect you to look you know the reality is as somebody in recovery do they know that though do most clients who come to you they're tag our kind of slogan is we've been there right and we talk about it more publicly now for a while we weren't but um sometimes i can't help myself right yeah you know i mean because i

see myself in that family member. So I want to go that extra mile for that family. And sometimes that means I may spend extra time on the phone with that family where I'm not really in that role. I'm not there as a case manager. I'm not there as an interventionist. I'm there as an attorney. But sometimes those lines get blurred. And, you know, when you care so much about this, so at the end of the day, I mean, like, why are we doing this? Like, why are you doing what you're doing. I mean, the reason why I wake up every day now and I'm excited to go to work, I mean, genuinely excited. And I didn't feel that way before I started doing this kind of work is because I know that if we can get some of these people to treatment, that they actually

have a shot of recovery. And like, what better gift in the world? I mean, you know, as far, I mean, we talk about this a lot, right? But like, my sobriety is the most important thing. I can talk about my daughter and my family all I want. But if I'm not so. I'm not. my wife's never seen me drunk but if she did she wouldn't like me very much and the reality is we know that without that we wouldn't have everything everything that we have and I want when a family comes to us and is describing these situations to us I see myself in that family I can't help it and I genuinely want that person to get well and we do have a lot of success stories that have come out of it which is great well I imagine I imagine and I can't

answer the question. I mean, I feel like I have a contract with the world. I have this contract that I have been given something that I don't know if I am worthy of or deserving of, which is my recovery. Right. I've received it. And yes, I guess you could say I am deserving it. I would say that you're more than, sorry to interrupt you there, but like you're deserving of it because all you're doing with your life is giving back to it. I mean, your foundation, this facility. Sometimes you may question it, but I mean, I'm sorry to go out of direction. And this is supposed to be conversational.

I mean, butt in whenever you want. I mean, like, so like the, but the way that I see this, okay, so it's a contract with the world that I have been given something that based on my first 27 years of my life and the way that I behaved, I had a hard time rationalizing why I got so lucky. And so based on that experience, I now have this duty to make this thing possible to as many people as I can. And I do that through work and other people do it through AA and other people. I do it through a lot of different avenues. Yeah.

And you're doing it through a lot of different avenues. Yeah. And you know, the coolest thing about it is, I mean, I was a lawyer for 10 years before I started doing this work and got into recovery. I never, I did trial work. I did personal injury. I never really felt connected to the work in the field. I mean, I loved being in court.

I loved talking to people. I love being in front of juries. That was like fun. But I never really felt like I had that purpose. You know, now it's like, I mean, all that I, I mean, I have so much purpose in, in my life. I mean, we're literally a part of a team. And when I say a part of a team, I mean, the treatment centers are the ones and the clinicians are the ones doing the real heavy lifting.

But we're helping to get those people to that treatment center of that clinician. And, I mean, it's saving lives. I mean, a thousand percent. I just talked to a mom a couple weeks ago who said, without the Marchman Act, I have no doubt in my mind that my daughter would be dead today. No doubt in my mind. And that's the reality of this thing, right? Yes, that's the reality. The other reality that sucks about this work is that not all cases are going to end well.

So whether it's a treatment center or the Marchant Act or whatever it is, you're always going to find folks that are displeased because their loved one didn't get well, right? And so. And what my sponsor, I mean, I'm in the program too. What my sponsor tells me constantly, because I get caught up in this too is we're not in the results business. We're in the trying business, right? So all that you can do is try. the minute you start to try and try to change the outcome of something that's when I get into trouble because as he tells me pretty consistently my way sucks right meaning that there's something

greater than me that's kind of controlling the outcomes of things I control my effort I control how much I put into this thing I control whether or not I return that phone call of that person who needs help you know i control that i control how much effort i give into this thing yeah have you seen in the health you said four years start in 2021 we started the firm in 2021 yeah yeah i've been doing it for five though i had my own firm for about a year and then we merged in 2021 i mean obviously have you seen a like is there a profile or a you know how is business for lack of a better way of frame because you know obviously i think it's a randomized way of of determining whether or not like this is improving out there

because people who are coming to you are really in need of help, right? Yeah. The question being kind of like... Have you seen anything shift in terms of the kinds of people that come to you, the frequency, the number of people? It's, uh,

so the most people, most people that come to us are parents of adult children who are in their 20s and 30s, who have generally tried most other, avenues their loved ones have been to treatment multiple times they've tried the intervention they've tried case management and they're looking for a different solution but we have the flip side of things children adult children who are Marchman acting their parents yeah brothers and sisters business partners that one is

sometimes a red flag but as I tell Richard Casey who's my law partner pretty consistently that like yeah that like if he ever needed to be marchman acted she doesn't but like if he ever needed to be marchman acted um to save his life like i would do it right and he would do the same to me um but yeah so that that's the profile that we typically see is parents of adult children in their 20s and 30s who have tried most other avenues and this is kind of a last resort it's like if we don't do something else now our loved one our son our daughter is going to end up dad yeah yeah i mean that's the reality no no i mean we've seen we believe me we've seen it i don't we were talking about this a little bit before like i don't think there's one right

way to get to where we are i've heard so many different and this is another tool in the toolkit of behavioral health care professionals that when it gets to the point where this is needed it's a it's a useful service yeah and you got to throw out the what have it traumatizes them what if they don't like me what like because you you most of your clients are coming to you convinced the person's probably going to die yeah and then the flip side of it is what you just mentioned is that they think that if they take this court action which could involve law enforcement picking their son or daughter or loved one up and taking them to a treatment facility that if they do that their son daughter or loved one is going to hate them forever

we hear this all the time right oh i can't i can't do that to him and then you hear it's like well and you kind of talk them through that a little bit like what's the alternative like what is the alternative because would you rather your son hate you forever and be alive or not be alive and the reality of it is is that as much as it may feel that way on the front end of doing something like that that's that's usually not reality like once that person is in treatment and is under the care of like quality clinicians they don't hate their loved one forever there's a lot of healing that we see take place through that process but they get over it yeah it's not i know why they feel that way but for sure well congrats man

that's awesome um i just have one question though before we move before we move on though but in terms of the marchman act someone comes to you and they say listen i think my child or my my husband whoever needs to go away to treatment. What is the burden on you? Do you have to then go work with other doctors and say, look, this is a, you know, this is, we've done a physical or, you know, a mental panel. Like, what do you have to do to show this person? So you file a petition with the court and you essentially attach an affidavit to that from the family saying this is what we've seen. This is what we know. This is what we've noticed about our loved one. And then they get assessed. So the first, the first phase is an assessment phase. And then they're brought into a

facility to be assessed to determine if they meet the criteria of the Marchman Act. And that facility could be any licensed facility in the state of Florida. So, okay. Yeah. There's 1,200 of them. So there's a lot of options. I just can't believe, yeah. So, okay, we'll get more into it. So let's go to your story a little bit. You grew up, did you grow up in PA? Is that? I grew up in Langhorne. You know where that is? Yeah, Langhorpeia. Yeah, yeah. And siblings? Older brother. Okay. Yeah. And when do you first acknowledge, wow, I like drugs and alcohol?

Oh, I mean, you know, it's funny, I don't, people say that they remember their first drink. I really don't. Yeah. Sometime in 10th grade, maybe, I don't know, 9th grade, 15, 16. however old you are at that point loved alcohol from the start did drugs in high school I mean I didn't do cocaine at that point in time

but cocaine was the thing that took you down oh yeah yeah yeah loved it he loved it a lot of lawyers do I mean it's a it's a very popular drug in the legal community apparently yeah that was what took me down I mean I tried pretty much everything else with the exception of heroin so you okay so so you start kind of And then college, where?

Penn State. You went to Penn State. Oh, wow. You like, are the... Happy Valley. You're the prototypical... Philadelphia. I mean, Penn State, Villanova Law School.

Oh, you got it all. Lived in Center City for 15 years. Who was your... Who was... Who was... Like, were you Carrie Collins? Who was... Oh, no, no.

I was... Cajana Carter? Who was playing football? No, it was Larry Johnson was the big name. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Number two, right? Yeah.

Number two, Larry Johnson. I mean, I had like the worst four years of Penn State football. Like, I mean, Larry Johnson was like the highlight. Was Paterno still there? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Wow. Yeah.

This was while, it's funny, like, it's not funny, but this is why this is while all that stuff was, obviously, you know. Sandusky, the San Dusky's up? Yeah, I mean, I had a really good friend who was working for his charity and, I mean, obviously nobody knew, but just crazy to think that that was going on at that time. Were you an athlete or no? No. No.

I mean, not an athlete for Penn State. No, but like in high school. school or yeah yeah played basketball and uh soccer yeah and you didn't and you found cocaine at 18 yeah in college in college spring break Acapulco you remember your first line oh yeah that I remember you're lighting up right now yeah oh man yeah no it's the euphoric recall probably because you know it's like that it's like you you I mean I was so afraid for before that of putting anything up my nose and I don't know what prompted me to try it but I just remember feeling like maybe 10 beers 10 beers 10 shots of tequila yeah this is 2004 this is 2002 how old are you

42 42 okay so you have like yeah you have a year on me so you graduated college in 05 oh 5 yeah yeah good math well I take one back from oh six yeah So you graduate and then you go, you move back to the main line or whatever, you go to Villanova? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I actually was supposed to come to New York to go to St. John's in Queens. And I really wanted to go to Villanova. I was on a wait list. I remember I was about to sign a lease for an apartment in Forest Hills.

And I just decided to stop at Villanova on my way. um literally driving up to queens to sign a lease and uh and i just walked into the admissions office i was like it's two weeks until school starts i'm like you guys haven't given me an answer one way or the other i really want to go here they let me back to see the dean of admissions it's kind of a crazy story and um he's like why do you want to go here and i just gave him a whole story is like i don't want to go to new york i mean genuinely i didn't want to go to new york i'm like i want to stay in philly and um but it's crazy to think that like if I hadn't done that, you know, I'd gone up here and signed that lease, how if we make one

little decision that could be a little bit different, I mean, I don't think I'd be sitting here right now. I don't know where I'd be sitting, but I think like all things have kind of led me to a certain point. And it's just, I don't know why I'm having a moment of like thinking about that. Like, if I hadn't made that drive to Villanova before I drove up to New York, where would I be right now? Right. Well, there's this whole thing on on social, like the butterfly effect which is like going crazy yeah I mean but it's like great ashen coach your movie

in the back in the day by the way it's it's what sober people it's the way that people think all the time yeah right everyone's having these realizations that if I didn't do this thing or if I didn't go here if I didn't you know so for us it's like if I didn't get sober right where would I be today and for me it's probably six feet under

I mean that's yeah yeah that's the reality of it yeah but uh went to Villanova and so do you settle You settle into Philly, the Philly Nightlife. What does that look like? Are you running around with your buddies from Langhorne? Are you the whole thing?

The buddies from Langhorne, not so much. I'm more kind of running around with my buddies from college. Okay. A lot of the Penn State people went to and settled in Philadelphia. So people in Langhorne kind of like stayed in Langhorne. I was like, I feel like I'm one of the few that like made it out left. Yeah. Not that it's like a bed.

It's a very nice place to grow up. Yeah. Like, people get... Is that outside of Philly or where is that? Yeah, Buck's County. Oh, Buck, okay. So it's about 15, 20 minutes outside of Northeast Philly. No, that's, I mean, the other side of the bridge, Haddonfield.

I mean, Haddonfield's a great town. It's where I grew up, but so many families leave, go to college, and they go right back. And they marry their high school sweetheart. Yeah. And it's just, that's the life that they... No, I want it out. But, yeah, I mean, I'm definitely... So, but in law school, are you...

Because I remember a friend of mine who was in law school, when I was still in college and he basically was like he was going the opposite way where he was getting crazier and I thought it would be the opposite where he would be like tamping down he's like dude law school

I fucking party way more than I ever did in college is nuts I mean I'll never forget going to my first law school like get together social like a social like a social right it was at somebody's apartment

and I brought a handle of Jack Daniels like right just as a kind of and like everybody was looking at me kind of like what's he doing i don't know if i was in the wrong crowd but it was like yeah because i'm so used to that from college and i was just like i don't know this is just what i'm used to yeah you know and they're like oh no we're just they're like it's like a beer and wine type of an event i just like oh i didn't you found your crew though so you like so i definitely found my crew like people like you made your way and oh yeah yeah but were you were you so you were you were you at that point no but i was if they

had been, if they had been cool with the Jack Daniels, I figured maybe they would. So Alcapulco, back to Penn State, take me through the progression of your cocaine use. Are you actively seeking it once you land back in Penn State and into Villanova? Or is it something that, hey, if it's around, I'll do it. I am using it like, at Penn State, I'm probably using it like every weekend. Okay. Maybe during the week here and there. but it's definitely not interfering with my life.

I'm doing okay in school. I got into, I got into Villanova. I mean, at Villanova, it starts ramping up a bit. So I'll never forget, like,

there's these, like, moment, you were actually, like, giving me some recall. I feel like I'm old, but I haven't,

like, I don't remember. We are, yeah, we are old. Yeah. But I, so not because of

grades, but I got voted the graduation speaker at Villanova Law School, right, for my class. I mean, I can tell you why, if you want to know. This whole time I'm talking to you is your voice for radio. Booming voice. You ever have a voice all that. I mean, that is why. You start your own podcast. We are starting a podcast, but it's not in the behavioral house space.

It's going to be called Out to Lunch. And we just go out to lunch, and that's it. All right. And we've reviewed. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. We'll have you guys on it. All right.

We'll go to lunch. So I get, I get voted graduation speaker. And I decide. You're smiling so much today, Jay. I'm so happy to see you, man. Gallo week, happy. I decided to take a week in Vegas, like before the speech. And I decided to come back like the day before.

Oh, man. Of course. And I completely, I mean, I obviously did not great things out there, but then I remember I like, I lost my voice when I got home. I think this tea at GNC. I'd go find this tea to get my voice back to give this speech. But like that was life. It was like just constantly, I'd always find a way to get everything I needed to get

done. But at that point, looking back on it, it was like becoming difficult to balance. It was exhausting. You know, it's like when your drug use is ramping up and you're trying to be a normal civilized human being like in this part of your life. life but then you have that kind of wild party life going on in the background i mean i just did that for it was just that was just it was a long time of that um and then and then i become a and then i become a lawyer you give the speech and i think it turned out fine yeah were you using

cocaine to study though was it like your adderall or what what was no no it was more of like so when i would be studying um at that point it was more of a night thing i think that's one of the misconceptions around cocaine i don't i think at least my experience doing blow and smoking coke and whatever it was is i don't know that i necessarily focused more it just it was that overpowering energy of yes but i mean so when i became a lawyer oh here we go yeah yeah we're going to litigate the fact that cocaine does not make you focus yeah and by the way the cool the coolest part about all this is is like i'm an open book right um you asked before this what is off limits there's nothing off limits they're just the reality of it um

that's the beauty of sobriety yeah the florida bar knows everything that i might say which is phenomenal right and they still let me in so that's good but um i remember like my first year of practice i was like hungover um i had a day where i had to meet with like 10 clients in a row i had coke from the night before still in my wallet and i'll never forget going into the bathroom at work and thinking to myself, like, I'm just going to do a line. And that was like the point where I felt like I had found a performance enhancing drug. Like I got through that day and I felt amazing. And then for years after that, I was using it not just to do legal work, but to try cases

and to get through those trials. So it was performance enhancing for me. I mean, I was already pretty social and outgoing, but this took me to a whole other level. I mean, I felt like my personality was kind of killer, like on Coke. And then, you know, and then. So when you get cast for the show, you're practicing law. Yeah. You leave the Coke home, right?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you worried about that? A little bit, but I also, I didn't really think much about it. I just knew that, I don't know if they, like, knew who I was or like what I was up to. But I remember, I think it was a lawn. You didn't have a lawn. No, he was producer. Yeah, I think it was a lawn who.

He got sober, I think. He did. Yeah, yeah. I think it was a lawn who said, like, hey, just so you know, there's no drugs here. they just had you profiled like the attorney yeah yeah just like there's no drugs and then I remember when I got there

that they said that again to me and I remember thinking to myself like do they know that I'm like like a drug guy probably something they say to everyone and 90% of the people it's just a look away comment and to us it's like

holy shit do they know yeah yeah yeah do they know that I yeah yeah but were you worried at all the drinking or or well so like you know what it is it's like if you who is the who is the girl who Ali Fedatowski okay do you know who that is no I mean I know just from yeah I think

you kind of absorb of a lot of these names yeah yeah yeah Ali Fedatowski dude I think so did she get so this is wild actually because you said I did watch so this is 2010 this is 2010 so for me this is okay for 2009 I get married 2010 I go to rehab for the first time, but I remember being, like, very sick on pills and watching, I think, your season with my ex-wife because she married some Juan, or who did she... Roberto.

Roberto. Yeah. She married... Another Hispanic name. Yeah, yeah. Juan. Who took a wild guest there? That was not why.

I would have a lot of money that it was Juan. Yeah, Roberto. Yeah. Okay. So I'm, like, having, like, I mean, like, not vivid, but like some, so you were on this season? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And you hang around for a bit or are you in and out? Final six. Okay. Yeah. No, all right. Yeah. It's not like my man over here, but, you know, it's pretty close.

Maybe if I had been sober. Amen. No, who knows? I don't think I could have gotten through it without, without alcohol. Well, how much drinking was going on? Every day. Every day. Oh, yeah.

Did they try to limit you? No. No. At that point, they didn't limit you. I heard that things changed. Yeah. They changed a little bit, yes. They quite the opposite, encouraged.

Yeah. You did a drink as much as possible. So you were, like, just having the time of your life. So much fun. I mean, it was so weird and so much fun, but. Were you considering why you were really there to find love? They had to remind us, like, several times, I remember. Like, guys, we were like a fraternity.

I mean, I don't know if you're, I mean, I'm still close with a lot of the guys. These guys, yeah. I mean, this is 15 years later. We have a running text chain still of about six or seven of us that are still really close. But I remember them having to... When's the last time someone wrote in that text chain? Probably a couple weeks ago. I mean, I just went to Boston and visited one of my buddies, Chris Lampton, just a few months ago from the show.

So wherever I can, if I'm in that part of the country, I make it a point to try to see them. That's awesome. Yeah. Yeah, we really like, I mean, we were like at each other's weddings. I mean, I don't know, I don't know how things work today if it's still to that degree. I think there's a weird. Do you think social media has created this division or more competition? I don't know if it's competition.

I feel like everyone is just moving very quickly. So for you, you probably got off the show and like this was your fraternity of guys that you. We just wanted to hang out. Right. I mean, we were just like, we genuinely wanted to hang out with each other. like it wasn't even about I have to tell you like I mean the

the whatever you call it the notoriety or the fame like you know was fun but like we were getting these cool experiences where we got to hang out with like very cool people

that we wouldn't otherwise have an opportunity but it was probably pretty wild for you back then right I mean like because the show was that a pretty yeah yeah I mean it was

I mean uh I mean like even in Philly like I mean yeah you sent me a picture of you and when were you out with imbid oh yeah i mean i was out with imbid a bunch i mean embeed like when he first got drafted um i used to go over to his place pretty consistently

and we'd go out and we were we were friends i mean i'll still text him here and there wow and you know get him on the show i never i never would have had that i mean like at the end to think and that is directly related to having been on the show right because if i if i hadn't been on the show. I wouldn't have met his manager who I met when I went there. I mean, you know, and then I wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to hang out with him. I mean, when I was off the show, I got to hang out with the whole

Phillies team. I became good friends with Cliff Lee. He was at my wedding. I mean... Cliff Lee? Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Were you seeking that? He was dominant. He was dominant. I mean, 2009, right? What year did he go to us? Yeah, just 2009, 2010. They went back to the series

against the Yankees, lost. He was pitching for them then. He didn't win the series in 08. He was in Seattle. None of those guys did. It was like they had that rotation. Well, yeah, Hamill, it was like Hamill's Moyer, Kyle Kendrick, but the I mean, they had the year was

Oswald, Holiday, Cliffley, Hamels, and they didn't no, no. But so you get off and you move back to Philly, you start practicing law and you are I continued practicing. Were you going to go better? Were you ever like, you know what, I go on this show, you know, and things happened

my way. Maybe I'm not going to go back to be a lawyer. Never thought of it then. Never? No. I mean, I had no interest. I have to tell you, I didn't even know how much people paid attention to it. Right. I had no clue going into it. Yeah. It should be shell shocking. I just wanted kind of a vacation. Right. I was like this. This sounds like a fun experience. You were what? I was 27 and I turned 28 like right after.

Yes. I was 36 and eight years sober. Yeah. So it was a little bit of a different. It was a different experience for me. I was very, very, Very much. I mean, there was no, I had no business. I mean, being married at that point in time? Like if I, if, if, if I had. No. No, there was no way.

So what happens between 2010 and 2018? So I want to get up to the end there where. Well, I want to say this too. You know, it's funny. You bring that up, but like, I, I don't know if you recognize this. But like, there have been something I was thinking about last night, as I was just kind of thinking about being here, but I think there's been six that I can count that I know of, overdose or suicides from prior contestants on the Bachelor or Bachelor

at. Now, I don't know if in the grand scheme of things, that's a lot, like if that's representative of like the numbers in just general society. I tend to think it's a little bit higher to think that there have been six people that have been on the show that have passed away as a result of one of those two things. and I think that like part of the reason for that so I had um in 2013 I lost a really good friend of mine who was on the show Gia uh to suicide so she she died by suicide in 2013 and um that was really like I mean super traumatic um I didn't know anything about suicide and I remember like I kind

of started to think about my own mental health deterioration at that point and my increased drug use and I remember thinking of myself like I should stop like this is not heading in a good direction but it just kept heading down that pathway I couldn't was that the first time that you questioned and was like I need to change probably yeah so yeah so how did you know her from just that world yeah I mean I had watched her on the season before me she lived in manhattan yeah and after I got off the show remember she reached out to me and said I'm doing this club appearance in Long Island. And, you know, do you want to do it with me?

So that was how I first met her. Yeah. I mean, look, dude, I don't. So there are people out there that will blame production, blame. No, yeah. Like, I'm grateful for the experience. And I think, you know, we all get to control who we are and what we say and what we do. And then, sure, do they get a chance to.

to edit some stuff of course i think there is an opportunity and maybe this is something for me and you to think about where i've had i've had cast members over the years reach out and and i've supported some people and i keep that confidential because of just the whole thing if they want to tell their story someday that's fine yeah yeah or they've reached out for family members whatever it might be yeah there is very little preparation around okay here you are Craig you're going to go on the show you're going to end up coming going on to the show and nobody and coming off of the show at least for a period of time as a recognized you know public figure this is how it might affect your mental health they don't

that conversation doesn't really take place and I would love to be at the forefront of some type of men's group or support group where you know and it doesn't just have to be the Bachelorette, but reality television folks in general have a place to talk about these things. We are a fraternity. It's like AA, right? Like, you know, I know because it's our shared experience. The Bachelorette is very much the same way. Like, I know you know because we've both had that experience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I would love that. I didn't, but I wasn't, in no way was I like, I didn't mean to blame production. No, no, I didn't across that way. But yeah, but I mean, I remember they had a psychologist with us when we would travel.

Dr. Seldon, was she still your psychologist? I don't remember. I don't know why I still remember that name. Dr. Seldon, because I was like, why is this psychologist here with us? Like, I'm just trying to have a good time. But I think, and I guess she was there maybe from a liability perspective, like to just make sure nobody wanted to talk to the psychologist. Definitely.

But I wish she would have maybe followed up with me. Like, if I could change one thing, like, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, think it would have changed anything i probably wouldn't have answered her call but it would have been nice to like have that option to like maybe like yeah it's exactly what you're talking about to talk about that but yeah but let's let's talk more about that um but you would ask like what happened then i mean when it escalated why did escalate you said oh so like 2016 i got to the point where i was using daily um or almost daily i mean i have those moments where i'd like be using using using and then I'd have to crash for like 14 hours.

And it was becoming really difficult to keep up with. Financially or just emotionally and physically? Both. I mean, I was making decent money. So, I mean, for a single guy, I should have been like wealthy. And I wasn't because of the extracurricular activities. But I was holding my own financially. but but but by 2018 when I went to treatment at that point I was pretty much close to bankruptcy you know I mean I had a condo in foreclosure I wasn't working everything was outcome no income but leading up to that at the end of 2017 I was on a trial and I remember in Philly at City Hall and I remember sitting there and it was like a four-day jury trial and I was used to

using throughout the trial mainly at night um i was doing the routine where i'd stay up all night maybe i'd like lay down and kind of like stare at the ceiling for like yeah 20 minutes or so and i made it through the first three days of that trial and this like gets me like i just like god like i was sitting in the courtroom on day three and i remember thinking to myself you're not doing this again like it was something i had told myself for so long, like, you can't do this again. Like, tonight, you're going to stop and you're going to rest. I had to give a closing argument to the jury the next day. And I, so I remember thinking that to myself. I could, like, literally picture myself sitting in that

courtroom, like, looking out the window, like, I'm not doing this again tonight. And the next thing I knew, I was in my dealer's car at the same time, eight o'clock, restocking. And then I was up all night again. And I remember being up that next morning. It was November of 2017. It was Philly. It was cold. It was 30 degrees. And I'm in a full-blown sweat. Like, full-blown sweat. Like, I walked outside in 30-degree weather. And I am just pouring sweat. And I'm like, oh, man, this is not good. And I remember walking into the courtroom. And I sit down. My client kind of looks over at me, like is he all right there was a partner there from the firm he came over to me he was like what's up with you i'm like i got the flu right i got the flu judge comes out jury comes out

i ended up getting up and giving a closing argument but i remember thinking to myself like everybody is starting to recognize that something's up with me and uh and it was like one of my lowest points was like what have I become I used to be this like good like pretty good trial attorney and now I can barely even stand up to give a closing argument because I'm I felt you know what I thought about too I remember thinking to myself like should I just collapse right like play awesome yeah just like have a seizure like in the courtroom like I was literally thinking of a way out yeah I've had those thoughts how do I get out of this yeah how to get out yeah so after that uh I got called into my boss's office a few weeks later probably i don't know why it took so long and i remember him sitting me down

and saying like crag what's up with you um and i just denied it i just said everything's fine and um he's like if you need help or if you need anything you can talk to me i'd work for him for seven years um and i just couldn't bring myself to say those words like that i need the help and so I walked out of his office and then a couple weeks later I walked back into his office and told him that I could no longer you know work there I mean it was I was going to get fired at some point yeah oh yeah yeah so it was like one of those like you break up with the person before they break up with you type of a deal yeah that's the I mean that's the interesting part about when we get sober that that this thing that happens where we thought we were fooling so many

people and then we come to find out we were the last person yeah that we were fooling yeah but I kept the so I quit right and then I was for and you felt like if you told him but if you felt like if you told him it was over your career was over

I mean why didn't you tell him yeah so when you have like and I talk about this a lot today like when you have a professional license whether it be a lawyer a doctor a pilot a therapist whatever

and if you have a professional license, I think there is a tendency to think when you're in that position where you're using drugs all day or almost all day, that if you've told anybody what your life had become, they'd take your license away from you. They'd probably, I don't know, whatever, just lock you up in a psych ward, whatever the case may be. So I was so afraid of the consequences of telling anybody that if I felt like if I ever let anybody into my world, world. I was screwed. That was the end. So I just I just kept resisting and come to find out nowadays it's like I mean I tell people all the time it's like we had a guy that came and

spoke to us at Karen that had literally committed manslaughter while under the influence he was an attorney he went to prison for 10 years and he went back and is now practicing law or was practicing law again after that and not only that but he made amends to the family it was this amazing story But it's like, man, you can, I really firmly believe you can get over and get on the other side of anything or almost anything. I mean, recovery has proven that. Yeah, for sure. It's a misunderstanding about the nature of substance use and addiction right there too, because if it was really viewed as a disease or, you know, not a moral failing, you wouldn't be worried about it. You know, like, hey, I've got high blood pressure or I need to go and take care of this for three weeks.

You know, no, and say, oh, you're done. Yeah. So, and that still exists. That's why we have these conversations. Yeah. So for like four months, I'm living at 16th in Arch in a condo that is now going into foreclosure. I am, I mean, just to give you an idea of how bad things had become, I was not coming

out of this condo, right? Like, I was, I mean, other than to get whatever I needed to get and then go right back in. And the elevator connected to suburban station, right, in my condo building, right on top of it. So I would throw with like a hoodie on and sunglasses, and I'd go into this elevator and I'd take it right past the lobby so that I didn't have to interact with the doorperson who I hadn't interacted with in probably like a few months at this point. They were calling me because I had my mail down there and I was just like not picking up my phone and and I would cut through suburban station in my hoodie and my sunglasses to go meet

my dealer and then just go right back in. So I'm in this in this in this in this condo for like four months I mean I'm coming out like here and there for that but I'm like up all night um started sports gambling pretty heavily uh on like the most random stuff in the world like Saudi Arabian soccer. Yeah, I get it. You know. How's that league doing now? That's at about 3 o'clock in the morning and then Chinese soccer would come on in about

six. And you're not seeing anyone. No. Family, parents, brother. No, at that point, I mean, I'm just trying to think back. Like, I was giving them enough communication to let them think that everything was fine. They thought that I was still working. So I was telling, I never told them that I had quit my job and that I had quit my job and that

I was unemployed at that point in time. So I'm making up lies left and right about what I'm up to and everything. There was a period of time that I did go up to New York up here. My brother lived in Manhattan. I owed a bookie money in Philly. And I had the money, but I couldn't bring myself to pay him from this Saudi Arabian soccer that didn't go so well by the way he rarely gave me money so um but i had to have a buddy of mine um literally go meet him in person because i was so paranoid just to meet anybody like face to

face to like handle this for me and so he had reached out to my brother and sister-in-law who lived here i remember i came up here i want to say this was like march or april and i went out to dinner with them and this was like one of my like just making sure they know that I'm okay type of deals. Keep it up the appearances. Yeah. And I remember they called me out on it at that dinner. And we're just like, you know, Justin reached out to us, your buddy.

And he's concerned. And I'm just like, I don't know what he's concerned about. Like everything's fine. You know, so people were starting to kind of recognize. And you're an attorney. So you're ready to litigate anything. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah. And then, so that, that carried through like June, the end of June. and you have a similar story right isn't there a moment of clarity that comes yeah yeah so at the end of june of 2018 i am like very suicidal uh i mean to the point that um i actually did leave my condo for this i know we're going i don't i don't shut the fuck you're good you're fine dude you've got me talking more than anybody this is insane um

well we know each other so it's easier yeah i mean you go on some of these and they're like got the stock questions we're not going to do that so i uh i you know where liberty places yeah of course so i i lived like right across the street from it so i went over to liberty place like one night and i just it's like six o'clock at night you know they had that that food court there of course so i just sat like in the back of that food court and i had my laptop and i typed up a suicide letter, right? And I'll never forget there was like a janitor that walked past me. And I did not look well. I was actually crying as I wrote this letter sitting in Liberty Place. And I remember you feel that emotion now. I mean, is it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not to the extent that I'm like,

you know, but I'll be okay. But like, but it's always interesting. It's, uh, you know, I haven't talked about this in a while, but like I literally was writing a suicide letter. I remember this guy walked past his janitor and he was just like, are you all right? And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. You know, and he just, he just kind of just kept walking. I think he just didn't know, like, what's up with this guy? And so went back in, drowned myself in Coke, whiskey, and then I'd gotten sleeping pills. I had like a bunch of, I forget what they were, but they were like some sort of like sleeping pills.

So I'm taking Coke, you know, whiskey, Jameson, and sleeping pills. And I tried to take my own life that night. um through an overdose i tried to hang myself and the last thing i remember is waking up on the floor of that condo in the fetal position with the rope still on the floor with me just kind of crying out for help like i had like kind of like passed out and and looking back on it i think that the rope just didn't hold thankfully i'm not very good at tying a knot apparently but um but yeah I mean, I don't joke about this stuff. Like, it's kind of my defense mechanism.

I got it. I'm happy. You know what I mean? Yeah, no. Thank you for sharing this. So the ironic thing about it was like that morning I had committed to coming to New York to help my brother move. They were moving out of Manhattan and into North Jersey, right? And I committed to going up here, coming up here with him.

So the night that I had tried to take my own life and I wake up and it's probably like four in the morning and I come to I have like a 6 a mtrak train booked right which it's just weird like I was I was writing a suicide letter the day before I'm coming to New York I can't figure out like what it is that I want to do do I want to take my own life and really at the end of the day I think like when I look back on it I wanted to live I just didn't want to live under the circumstances that I was under and I didn't have a way out right I wanted so desperately to stop using and to get out of this situation. And I knew that that was the problem at this point. But you know what it is? It's like nothing else mattered. I can't stop. I can't tell anybody. So what do I do? It's like you feel like there's no way out, right? That is the only way out. So for people that don't understand, like, how is it that somebody can,

how their life can get to that point? And I've heard people say it's a choice. And to some degree, initially it was right the first line that i did was a choice i didn't know what cocaine was so i made a choice i'm going to try it but after that you know it really had a grip on me and a hold on me that i could not get out of so i go up to new york you get on that train i get on the train with with marks on your neck or i didn't have marks on my neck so i guess uh i don't you know i don't I wish I knew more of the details. I just was so fucked. I was so like,

yeah, yeah. But I come up here. I help my brother. I'm not in a good place. I end up going back to my parents. Did you cope that day? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Wake up, I mean, from the attempt and you're going cold. Oh, yeah. And you tell no one. Tell no one. No.

You're just walking around carrying this. Yep. Yeah. I end up back. back so my parents are there i end up um going so i was so afraid what did it feel like to see your parents like walking into that well relief relief um relief because you know of what i just said like i didn't want to i didn't want to die i mean so i think like deep down i really didn't want to die so it's like spending time with my family at that point in time was almost like a safe space you know so i

think that like at that point it had gotten so so deep and so bad that i also knew that like if i went back to that condo number one it's in foreclosure so i mean i'm almost like like what's the end game here right yeah so i think i felt so confident that like if i go back to that condo i'm going to end up um doing it again but i ended up with my parents and my dad um was driving me to a septa station uh train station out in langhorne like where they live because i've gone back to their place after it and then that night he's driving me to a to a uh a uh a train station and I'm I'm in that car um and he they had definitely started to notice something was different because he was asking me like are you okay like is everything all right you know

um but he's asking me questions about work and I'm just making up answers like kind of on the fly and he's driving me to that train station and um it's like a five-minute ride and I remember thinking to myself that if I get on that train back to center city I'm going to die like Like I'm just going to try to take my own life again. I'm going to succeed and that's going to be the end of it. So like I felt like this is my shot. Like this is it. Like this is your opportunity.

And to this point you had not asked for help. There has been no, not one moment of Craig saying to anyone in your circle, I need help. No. Wow. Well, other than what I told you about it. Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, my friend Justin, who called my brother and sister, law.

No, people thought that like I generally was okay. Okay. I think. I mean, I don't know. But I think that's also true, like for men, for really humans, we get into these, like the 20s can be scary because you, you graduate college and then everyone kind of goes and gets jobs. Yeah, well, I'm 35 at this point. I know, but yeah. So whatever. It's adulthood. Yeah. Yeah. Friends aren't like always talking. You're not always at the bar Friday night. So there's just, oh, Craig's an attorney. He's killing it. He's busy. When reality is, he's having his own party. Right. Yeah. so I just start like hyperventilating like in that car I just remember like starting to breathe heavy and we're like getting closer to the train and I'm just like this is my shot this is my shot and I just start crying right and my dad who's like this very kind of like patient and quiet like soft spoken guy like looked over at me just like what's what's going on like what's wrong and I'm I don't know how long it was.

It felt like it was 10 minutes, but it could have been a minute for all I know. But it felt like 10 minutes that I just could not get a word out, right? And finally, I was able to say to him, the first words I said to him were I'm a cocaine addict, which is actually not the first time I had made that statement because I put it in the letter as well. And the letter, by the way, is still on my phone, right? I keep the letter. Yeah. And I don't know if this is like, no therapist has told me to.

do this quite honestly but every once in a while I will read it to remind myself you know of when like the problems of today become overwhelming how big my problems were back then and and that's like kind of my source of gratitude like to be anyone else ever read it um so I read it to my therapist but um but other than that I've kept it I've kept it under wraps yeah I'm trying to think back to if like any of my friends in treatment read it but it's been it's been something that like i don't not like i'm not like reading it every week but like maybe once a year i might what did dad say i'm a cocaine that what was it he said uh okay okay he said we're going to figure this out and uh and took me back to to their house and we knew of karen because we had a family friend who

went to karen it was the only thing the only place that i knew about sobriety at all was Karen. So that was who we called. And they had a bed available. I went to their facility in Pennsylvania, went to Florida, and the rest is history. The rest is kind of history, you know?

I mean, you know what it is, though, too, which was just amazing about it is, I could talk about God, I assume, here, but like to some degree, fine, fine. I know it's not for everybody, right? But for me, it happens to be a pretty big deal. And you know what the other crazy thing is, too, is like, if I would, if you would have told me that I'd be like on a podcast talking about God like seven years ago, like that was not in my repertoire, maybe to look good or whatever. But like, no, but like there's no other explanation for what happened. I don't even know how I got here. Like I mean, I know how I got here. I could look back and trace the steps, but I just don't know how all these incredible people were placed in my life at that. And I mean, I know how I got here. I can look back and trace the steps. But I just don't know how all these incredible people were placed in my life at that. I mean, exact moment in time. It was like this doorway just opened up. And it was like, here are all

of these people that can help you, my therapist, friends in treatment, my wife, I met my wife when I was in treatment. She was not in treatment with me. But my sponsor, all my sober buddies. I mean, we got a group of like, I mean, there's like a strong, there's like a strong 25 of us that are like super tight down there. You know, how does that happen? I don't know. It's, I have found everything in sobriety that I was searching for in my next drink. It's the community. It's the brotherly love.

It's the fellowship, the ability to be honest, the ability to be authentic. I don't, and I hear you share all this, and I just can't help but think how lucky we are. Yeah. Yeah, man. And why people that I think have never been exposed or understand. recovery find it so crazy that like we met for breakfast about a month ago and you're like there was traffic it's not you're not you're not honking you're not like it's just there was traffic yeah we we can only control what we can control and that's it we get to live that way

which is so beautiful yeah yeah yeah like you know like I uh I told you that that I had to fly a couple weeks ago this airline that nobody should ever fly right like but but they lost my my bag right this is like a great example of like like and back in back in the day like like they could not find this bag and then dealing with like just you know customer service and and very easily i could get like agitated in that kind of a scenario but it's like they lost your bag who cares dude i lost your bag they ultimately found the bag but the reality is is and if it was gone guess what's a bag but i mean but you know it's just that that that's the kind of shit that might set me off previously you know oh and you're blaming people i want my money back i want to

refund I want you know and these are these are people just trying to do their job they didn't they didn't actually lose your back right something happened they may have but right but uh but yeah so I don't know I just I know that we we haven't I know we've been talking for a while yeah we're wrapping up but I just feel like I feel like I feel like I want you to have an opportunity to just give the listeners a little bit a glimpse of what your what your recovery looks like and I mean you did I'm glad we started with kind of what you're doing for work because that's really powerful and your story obviously and i'm just i'm grateful you know these like the reason we do this podcast is to have

conversations just like the one we had and i feel like if one person one attorney you know who is struggling here's this conversation we did our job yeah yeah um yeah i mean just a few things i'll I'll just say is that, number one, I started with this, but, you know, when we had Stella, this is like, you know, she's two years and three months. So like January of 2023, well, let me just take you back for a second. When I met my wife, I was early in recovery. She was going through a divorce. She was actually my personal trainer when I was in treatment. And, she was in the middle of a divorce I was in treatment like

physically in treatment or you were in physically in treatment they were taking us to the gym for person training sessions so like so this idea on paper was terrible yeah and the reason why we have a really extremely healthy marriage today is because she's not in recovery she more than allowed me

she encouraged me to put my sobriety first early on you know they say don't get into relationships early in sobriety and that is that is true probably not the greatest idea but i'd be hypocritical if i told somebody not to do it yeah it's a made up rules yeah it's a made up rule but here's the thing if you're in a relationship and you're with somebody who won't let you put your recovery first then then you're going to fail you know that's that's just the bottom line um she has since day one allowed me to put my recovery first and what that looks like for me now is even though i have responsibilities as a dad and as a husband at home and I have responsibilities as a business partner

and a law firm owner at work and I have a responsibility like through A.A. to like be a sponsor and to help and take guys through the steps. My wife always says this that like I don't care what we have going on in our lives. If there's something that you need to do that's recovery related, you go do it and we'll figure the rest out. out you know she's like i don't care if it was our anniversary i don't care if it was my birthday if you need to go to a meeting or you need to go meet up with a sponsee don't even ask just do it right and so and so that's what my life looks like today and i i'm really like i'm blessed to actually have that kind of a scenario right where like my wife understands it don't get me wrong

i spend a lot of time with my daughter you know like weekends or like her her time mornings and nights, but without recovery, man, it's like we don't have anything. So I still go to meetings regularly. I still have a sponsor. I still take guys through the steps, you know, in my personal life. And that's where I get a lot of joy and gratitude out of these days, you know, because the reality is this, and you know this. It's like how many people were willing to give themselves there, I'm sorry, how many people were willing to give us their time so freely early on, right? Like, Jimmy, who I mentioned. That's the contract I'm talking about.

Yeah. Like, if I ever forget that, I mean, I'm a thief. Well, I mean, people here at release say they, they know that I'm a crazy person around these kind of like generic emails that come in or these people that write. And we've missed, you know, I've missed DMs, of course, over the years, you know, you just, I can't keep up. But I know, I know. how hard like i know like you i mean i'm getting emotional like that that that moment and with your dad in that car you know like i know that feeling of just like how do i say this yeah and for some of these people you and i jay we are the first person that they are comfortable to say like

anything around the lines of i need help yeah yeah and then once once someone says i need help anything is possible yeah and just to piggyback off of that. And I got to get you the hell out of it. Yeah, that's fine. When I was in my really bad spot in that condo in Philly, I would have the TV on in the background and they would have these infomercials on late at night for like treatment centers and recovery stuff at like 3 o'clock in the morning.

I remember seeing those. And I remember thinking to myself, there is no way that those people at that treatment Center will understand the depths of which my life has become such an absolute disaster. Like nobody will ever get it. Nobody will ever get me. You know what I mean? And how bad things have gotten. Come to find out. So like I think like ultimately the message I would like to convey on this is that if anyone has this on in the background at 3 o'clock in the morning, like people will get it. There is actually, I'm sure in New York, there's probably rooms by the hundreds like that show up to meetings and stuff like that that um that more

than get it that have actually been likely in the exact same scenario that you have been in yeah and they know the way out you know and that's like what i wish i would have known for a long time is that this world existed because i just didn't know anything about i know you and i are similar in that i had no idea what was here yeah and look at us now business owners entrepreneurs doing and what we want to do, helping others, and, like, really proud and open and honest about nothing, nothing that was said here today, I know for you and for me, can affect me in a negative way because it's just the truth. And when we tell the truth, anything is possible. For sure. I love you, dude. I love you, too, brother. This is awesome. Thank you, man.

Jay, I love you too, dude.