The Zac Clark Show - Does AA Really Work? Is Anonymity Necessary and the Enduring Mystery of 12-Step Programs Nearly 100 Years Later

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

12-Step programs are sacred spaces—revolutionary in their simplicity and accessibility. Open to anyone seeking help, with no fees or barriers to entry, they have quietly helped millions of people and exist in roughly 180 countries worldwide. Despite their global presence, they remain humble and unassuming, never positioning themselves as an organization or weighing in on public controversies. At the heart of these programs is the concept of anonymity—maintaining it at the public level to ensure that principles, not personalities or status, remain the guiding force. This commitment to anonymity has allowed 12-Step programs to thrive and support countless individuals, reinforcing the idea that the strength of these programs lies in their collective message of recovery, not in any single person. In this episode, Zac takes on the delicate and often confusing topic of anonymity in 12-step programs, particularly Alcoholics Anonymous. Since his time on The Bachelorette and entering public life, Zac has grappled with how to honor the core principles of AA—a program that’s been central to his recovery—while also wanting to share his experiences to help others. Joined by his spiritual confidant and mentor of over a decade, Jay Devore, Zac navigates a thought-provoking and sometimes uncomfortable discussion. Together, they delve into the intricate balance of honoring the anonymity that has safeguarded AA for decades while confronting the realities of a world far removed from the 1950s when these traditions were established. Zac and Jay grapple with the appropriateness of even having this conversation, the reasons behind AA’s enduring effectiveness, and the need to reassess old tenets in a modern world where millions continue to struggle and stigma persists. This episode is more than just a discussion—it’s a heartfelt exploration of authenticity, responsibility, and the evolving landscape of recovery and mental health. As Zac and Jay question what it means to share one’s truth in today’s world, they also examine the profound impact that doing so can have on others. Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

Hi, welcome back to the Zach Clark show. Today's episode is a little bit of a different approach. And before we get into that, I just, I had a conversation right before I sat down in this chair about sneakers and I've always loved sneakers at one point in my life, I would have considered myself a sneaker head. And the guy I was talking to, we had a pair of ones on. I said, hey, man, I like your shoes. Do you a sneaker head? And we kind of commiserated about the fact that maybe we're in retirement. but we still wear our sneakers.

We still wear our shoes. And it brought up something for me that I just don't understand. Sneaker culture has obviously taken off and with the onset of bots and all the, you know, sites that you can go buy overpriced sneakers on. It's a whole thing. I don't understand the guy like me, the 40-year-old guy that goes out and buys a pair of sneakers above market value and then goes and proceeds to let them

sit in a box for the next 10 years at what point is it like smoke them if you got them if I buy a nice pair of shoes I'm going to wear those shoes I'm going to wear the Travis Scott Jordan ones over and over and over again because I paid a lot of money for them and I like them so unless you're going out and you're trying to to kind of invest in sneakers and let those sneakers sit there so that they go from, you know, a $500 pair of shoe to a $5,000 pair of shoes, which by the way happens very rarely, but does

happen. I just don't understand the grown-ass adult going out and buying shoes and waiting for that moment to actually wear them. Like I got a pair of dunks on today that I like. I'm wearing them. They were a gift from a friend. I think of my friend when I put them on. That's the reason I fell in love with sneakers. And I just had to go on this sneaker ramp because I was a little where I am, I continue to be a little confused about the people that go out and buy nice things and let them just sit in their closet for years on years and years. Why? So that the one time you wear them, someone's going to, like I wear the sneakers so that I'm walking down the street and the one guy who knows the sneakers that I'm wearing

kind of gives me the like, hey, I see you. That's why I do it. That's why I wear the sneakers. I completely acknowledge and admit that. The more I wear, the more likely that is to happen. It's like game-recognized game. So I don't know why I'm starting with the sneaker rant today,

but maybe I wanted to... Because these are new sneakers. The new balances, yes. What are you think of these guys? Those are fine. They're fine. They're fine. I mean, like, would I wear them? Most likely not.

but like new balances new balances they're the coolest new balance you could get man my my feet are very flat uh and these did sit in in the box for a couple weeks because i was i'm a one shoe burn it to the ground kind of guy and i and i love and respect that mentality uh and i'm actually getting there like i'm in the i'm in a point in my life where i have 30 or 35 pairs of shoes in my apartment and i'm just rifling through them and wearing them as much as i can in hopes that I'm eventually a one-shoe kind of guy. Well, it's good for your, it's better for your feet to change it up. I have bad feet, and I will wear these until my feet start hurting.

So who is this mysterious man that just popped in out of nowhere to tell me about his bad new balances? No, new balance is a great brand, and they're on the comeback. They're on the comeback. Actually, they're here. I shouldn't say they're on the comeback. Yeah, they're here, man. New balance is legit.

So this is Jay, Jay, DeVore, and I have Jay here today with me. We're going to do a little bit of a solo, not-so-solo episode talking about this idea of anonymity, right? Anonymity, what that word means. I get questions asked all the time in the workplace from families, from new clients, from patients, from people that I meet that are new in sobriety. and Jay is someone that is it's a sacred relationship for me right like I met Jay 12 years ago

at a meeting I can say that at a meeting and that's something that I can say here today because I feel like I've lost the ability to be anonymous right but it's been a little bit of a mindful so I met Jay at a meeting and he has been my guide my sponsor my mentor however you want to draw it up for the last for the last 12 years like when I'm when I'm in a jackpot I call this man right here, and he knows more about me than really anyone. And it's one of the beautiful things that happens in recovery is you meet people who you didn't know before. I had no idea who you were.

I saw you share a message of recovery, and I was attracted to that. And I didn't know what the hell you did. So this is Jay. Hello, Jay. Hello, Zach. Thank you. Wow. Yeah.

It has been 12 years. You know, I just, I just, I just want to say up front, like, I'm absolutely going to talk about A.A. Alcoholics Anonymous, my relationship to it in the most honest way possible. I want to make this 100% clear. And you know this. Like, my relationship to it has changed throughout the years. But fundamentally, I always go back to that, you know, it changed and saved my life. Right. And it gave me most everything that matters in my life today. It's where I met my wife. It's where I've met my wife. It's where I've met people like you.

And I think, you know, when we were talking a little bit before, one of the unique things about these relationships is they deepen and they evolve. And like, really, where else does that happen? Except maybe when you're a kid, where you meet someone and maintain a really active and committed relationship, you know, that really is just about connection and helping someone. And our relationship has evolved, like, tremendously. Yeah, I mean, what's your wedding? Yeah. I know the story of how your kid was born on a street in New York City, which we may or may not have time for today.

And I agree with you. And it's part of what is such a, I get so twisted up on this man, and I'm happy we're having this conversation because it is. When I think of my life, what is the greatest thing? that has ever happened to me i got sober i am in recovery and i actively you know work a program that i take really seriously i have also been thrown into this bizarre existence where you taught me and my community taught me that you don't say no to a right you don't say no to alcoholics anonymous when they ask you to be of service you say yes which i have done and i will

continue to do. What does that mean for me, though, after I go on national television, I share my story, I get home, I flip open my phone, and I have DMs from people all over the place. Hey, will you speak at my Tuesday night meeting? Hey, will you speak at my Thursday night meeting? Well, how do you know I'm in AA? Are you making assumptions about me and my recovery? Could be my response, or it could be, yes, and I've actually responded.

responded to a lot of those people and spoken at a lot of those meetings. And so, you know, for me, I feel like I've been, that part has been taken away from me. The anonymity has been taken away from me. And, and Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob, when they wrote the big book, didn't have a chapter about, you know, what happens after you, you know, are thrown in a public time. You go on reality television and, you know, become, you know, famous. And, you know, there are examples that they cite and as examples or cautionary tales. Obviously, it's a much different world today. Remaining anonymous is incredibly hard. But I also just want to say, too, like, look, like all of this stuff, the traditions, the steps, like, were to protect AA, right? And

like, fundamentally, like, that is your intention. And fundamentally, by talking about right now like I am I'm I I I honor and respect the life and what happens in you know inside of an A meeting and with the 12 steps but I also think that by you being so public and open about your story you've helped in a measurable amount of people that you would not have been able to reach and you know I don't foresee this happening but if in a year from now you're not in A.A. And you're using drugs or you're using alcohol. Like, I don't think that has to reflect negatively on AA. Because I think it's really about the person.

No one can get anyone sober. No one can keep themselves sober unless they're willing to do these things. With that being said, like, it is a fine balance. And even recently when, you know, Michael Trinnell was on the show, like we talked about it. And it's how do you walk that fine line? of being helpful, which is what you're taught to do, while also being honest about what you feel is the right thing to do. And I don't know if there's one single answer for that.

No, part of it, I mean, part of me is very scared even having this conversation right now, but then I think of what I want to say, which is Jay is also part of the creative behind this show. and if we as humans are really meant to evolve and to grow and you know like rule number 60 like we don't take ourselves too seriously then I can wrap my head around the idea that it's also like you don't have that like are you that powerful right are you are you is that Clark going to take down no no

is any one person going to take down no no but I'm terrified of the of the of the karma of the spirit of the higher power that kind of oversees all of this stuff which we can get out there

with that I just know man that like for me for me and this is like my and you taught me man early on keep it to yourself

like talk about yourself yeah and that that was really helpful like for me I I'm never going to tell you who I see at a meeting I'm never going to take a picture

or give any indication of where a meeting is located. I'm never going to share anything that happens in a meeting or in a conversation with fellows to anyone else outside of that group of people. I'm never going to go into a social situation and explain to someone how I know someone, even if we are both sober.

Like, I'm not. Even if they're my best friend, I'm not going to say, hey, we met it in an AA meeting. It's more just, and this is something that's helpful for a lot of newcomers. that I give them this tool. It's, oh, we go way back. You know, we met when I moved to New York City 10 years ago,

and we've been fast friends ever since. And that's enough. Right. That's enough. Like, sober people feel this need to kind of overshare. And so I know the pieces that I keep sacred. You know, I know your intention. Yeah, I know my intention.

Well, that's for fucking short. Because we also know people and even in our recent lives who, you know, it as a way to gain attention or to enter into conversations that they want to be a part of and you know like I mean look at look at our culture right now like not we have more information about how drinking is harmful right drugs obviously you know like how many young people are choosing to not drink right so the whole conversation around alcohol and alcohol use disorder even saying that versus alcoholism you know like it's It's all a mind fuck, you know, like, am I wrong?

Am I if I refer to someone, oh, yeah, he was a, he's, you know, Zach was a drug addict. You know, like, is, is that harmful, you know, like, and, and it's, it's, so it's all confusing and it's all changing. But what isn't changing, uh, is the problem, right? I think the language is more about the person who doesn't know they have a problem yet. Right. To broaden the front door. It's easier for someone to say to themselves, I have a substance use disorder than, then I'm a drug addict.

For me, I fucking lean right into that. Like, I'm a drug addict. Like, well, I don't know what you want. For me, that's what I am. When I do drugs, I end up in weird places with weird people and I do way too many of them. And if fentanyl was around when I was, you know, doing drugs, I wouldn't be here. Right. Period.

End of story. Right. And it's also, too, like when people say, because I've heard people say, you know, like, you don't, I'm an alcoholic or, you know, oh, now I'm, that's all I am. I'm just identifying as an alcoholic. And it's like, again, like, that goes back. to what you just said about take take the problem seriously but not yourself necessarily too seriously like if i'm referring to myself as as that like that doesn't mean that i and again this is

for the the person who's new right who's scared to ask for help who who doesn't really know what happens inside of an a meeting or in recovery and there are people who are in recovery who don't know what happens inside of recovery you know so it's i think it's really about finding good people who have good intentions and are you know even by having this conversation like I just I feel uncomfortable but I also feel and I feel the need to say like I want to protect AA even as my relationship is of course I care even as my relationship has changed to it dramatically you know but like if someone like I was telling you before like I was speaking to someone who needs help now and like and I all I can do is tell them what I've done and that

requires like full immersion into the process yeah even if I'm not there and I don't lie about I say look like I you like this is the way I used to do it I I don't do it that way anymore yeah maybe I should maybe I shouldn't but I don't but I'll tell you when it worked when I got what I got that's what I was doing yeah and you you must see this all the time like with your professional work having to navigate that line of I mean it's talk yeah the thing that for me so I So I hope to celebrate, I don't know when this is going to air, or if it's going to air at all, because I'm so, this conversation is just wild to be having out loud, but I hope to celebrate 13 years at the end of August, August 30th, and if I do, that'll mean I've worked

in behavioral health care for a little over 12 years. Like I started working in recovery pretty shortly after I got sober, and still to this day, when I share my story in a spiritual environment, I don't talk about rarely. I mean, rarely will I reference my day job. Rarely. Because I don't want people to get it twisted.

I don't want people to get it twisted. And it's almost like there's some shame there. But what I will tell you is that what we do at release recovery is vastly different than what happens in a 12-sep room. And by the way, I support other methodologies and other programs. I mean, smart recovery, refuge recovery, and Dharma and all these other support groups. I mean, we host a, we host a Dharma meeting at our release office every Friday night.

You know, I'm open to it all. Whatever is going to work for you. But I don't talk about it there because it's really, you know, my story as it relates. to my alcoholism and what I did to get sober so I talk about going to rehab I talk about you know

going to meetings and talk about the importance of step work and actually doing the work once I'm there but I don't I don't really talk about my day job because I don't want it to get confusing and there are

and but on the and yet you know and tell me if I'm wrong undoubtedly your experience in AA and with the 12 steps has informed how you approach your work yeah and my life and well of course yeah your life and that goes back to again protecting AA you know spirituality money do not mix you know this is for fun and this is for free which is all super important to make that new person feel safe but there's a lot of of different ways to make someone feel safe and there's a lot of different ways to get help and that's only changed in the 12 you know for me 17 years that I've been sober you know and so

that's not to say that like a needs to evolve it needs to it doesn't need to do anything it's because it's the people that make AA and so if people keep evolving and doing what they need you know what they need to do then then a will be fine well it's interesting too because I think there's my experience is that there's old timers that don't give a fuck like there's old timers that are just like who cares you know and then there's old timers that will tell you that you're you know overstepping with a conversation like this and i i agree like i don't i don't have any interest in changing it i don't have any interest in harming it i also have serious serious personal experience of sharing my stories

and seeing the way that that has impacted the world and quite frankly impacted me personally like my life and my North Star and what I want to be and what I want to represent in the world and how I want to go about my business or even starting this fucking podcast to begin with it's not like we're you know signed a huge deal with a big company and said hey we're going to make a shitload of money

doing this podcast if that comes five years from now great but the ethos the spirit of what we are even doing here is to introduce people to a variety of different stories, a variety of different recoveries, a, a front door into this process that is fucking broad and roomy and all inclusive. And that language comes from A.A. Yeah. Well, you said something. He said this conversation is wild. And it's like, I feel that, right? I feel like uncomfortable. I feel like I'm doing something wrong. But on the other hand, I don't. you know does the average person and they don't why how would they understand when you say this

feels wild what that really means no right but it feels that way because i and you and and people have given so much to it and have been get and have received so much that it really matters it really matters so i know that your intention is to do this the right way but to also be honest in honor your experience. Yeah, I think about how many parents have called asking, you know, release for help. And then they kind of get their kids or their husbands or wives enrolled. And naturally kind of 12-sep always comes up, right? And a lot of times parents will say, well, isn't that a cult?

Right. Isn't that a cult? And I laugh because I know it's not. I know it's an incredible place where people meet and gather and change. I don't even try and explain it to my normal friends because until you've experienced it, until you've experienced a miracle of recovery, like they're not going to get it, man. And even with these parents, I kind of just tell them, no, it's not a cult. Like let your child have their own experience.

Keep an open mind. And don't ask them questions about. you know who they're seeing at the meeting and are they making friends and where are they at their step work and when are they getting an amends because then that just becomes naggy and annoying right right and that's the education that we try to give to the parents is that this journey that someone is on that I am on is spiritual in nature and it's it's it's my journey right well you said two things I mean like first of all the word cult you can't say that where without someone having some negative connotation, you know, and that's the first problem, right?

And what really changed my life in this process was the idea of being like truly open-minded, like letting your ideas change. And so like, you know, people would say you're brainwashed. And it's like, well, sometimes you need brainwashing, right? Like the way that I was thinking and living was not working. Yeah. And I wasn't happy. So if that's the brainwash, then that's what I needed.

a cult you know we live in a culture of cult like we we are an obsessive culture we consume we consume like you know whether it's it's sports it's celebrity like it's religion whatever it is it's the word that people get you know stuck on A.A. is what started as a spiritual movement it still is a movement and it's the beauty of it is it's it's people of it's people people with a common problem identifying with a common solution, right? And so call that whatever you want. It doesn't really matter. Yeah, I mean, look at the, I think it's John Kelly, who's a Harvard researcher, doctor, like published a paper about the efficacy of 12-step recovery and how it is still. And if I didn't get something right there, I apologies, but there's

something that he has put out there that says this really works and well because it's the community you know it's it's it's the fact that 12 years later we're sitting in these chairs having this conversation uh you know bound by this thing well it's always hilarious to me too because whenever whenever i'm introduced to someone new in recovery and i get those messages all the time the person that always worries me the most there is a profile of this guy the guy who is between 28 and 35 years old he went to Harvard or Yale or Princeton he's the smartest guy in the room he's made a shitload of money but he cannot stop drinking and if I am talking to them on a personal level and I invite them or suggest that

they go amongst other things to a 12-set meeting to check it out. That's a professional recommendation that I make. They laugh in my face. And then they'll go, maybe they'll go, and tell you every reason why this thing that's been around since 1930 is wrong and they are right, the person that can't stop drinking. Which is the hilarious thing about this, is it's so simple and it's so easy,

and anyone can do it but it's almost like the more intelligent the person is the smarter they are the more likely they are to fight it and I've seen that person die a lot because they are just not willing

to surrender and let go of the ego and it's really scary and then you know you get the person that comes in kicking and screaming but they do it and they do it honestly and miraculously they get it yeah well it's i mean what kills those ideas is pain right when you are absolutely broken and sometimes those people just aren't

broken down enough um to the point where they're willing to do whatever it takes um you said something else but, you know, I forgot it. But the other thing is the spiritual component, right, which is very hard to talk about because you're bringing up all these words that people have a lot of associations with. Yeah. You mean like God? Exactly. And what was funny for me is when I first started and they, you know, and I was working with a sponsor and they would say like, you know, Like, it doesn't matter if you believe. It doesn't, do whatever you need to. Like, just, just do it.

Just pray, just whatever. I felt really uncomfortable. You know, I was a Jewish kid from South Florida. I felt very uncomfortable. But I did it, right? I went through the process. And what happened to me is that it started to really work. I was having a new experience.

And God was just the simplest word to define it. And like, I've heard you saying, I know this true. It's like, well, what is God? And you're like, I don't know. I don't go beyond that but like I do know a word to encapsulate the experience simple actions that changed my perspective on life changed the way related to myself the ideas I had about everyone and everything that changed and like that experience was spiritual in nature and like that is the thing that of course I want to protect in honor

And I, and I don't, you know, religion is also a, in certain sections, like a dirty word, you know, but like, again, we were, we read, you know, and learned, who am I to judge if someone's happy, right? I was not happy, you know, so this experience that I had, it, it changed the way I thought and it, and it changed my life. and I just feel like that we miss that aspect of it when we're talking about 12 steps, AA meetings, and it's certainly not seen in pop culture and media, you know, in movies or TV because it's such a personal experience. But I think it's the thing, man.

And it happens between two people. For me, like, it really happened when I started seeing other, you know, like maybe I didn't know what was really happening to me, but when I saw fucking you walk in, you know, off the streets just beaten and battered and your attitude change and the color come back and the light in your eye

like I couldn't deny and then how are you expected to not share that man that's the crazy part is like you want to share that and it's like this it's really hard it's really hard it's really hard I just

you know I mean and for you it's even harder because here you are professionally you know providing lost it though dude i mean come on like i i any anonymity no but i mean like i've been on so many podcasts and interview where the interview is very comfortable like maybe they're sober and they're just they don't care they're just talking about it and they'll just be like you know you go to meetings right and i'm like what is a i too tell me to be honest like i can either say yes or i can be like i don't talk about that here and make it super awkward right and it but like and they'll always say you go to meetings right like it's like the meetings were there to talk

about the thing that was happening. No one says, like, do you want to talk about that thing that happened to you? Do you want to talk about your relationship with this higher power or the spiritual principles you're living by? No, because people don't really know that. And that is the fucking thing. Yeah. I'm sure there are people that, who are in, you know, are with release right now.

Like, that you couldn't, you, because it's experiential. Yeah. But that's the fucking secret sauce. Yeah. And then just what it did for me, whether. it's recovery or 12 step or whatever but but relationships man the way that i was able to do this self this inventory really take inventory and continue to do that in my life today it is a superpower and part of that inventory is understanding that in relationships it's impossible to

make everyone happy. It's impossible to do right by everyone. Relationships are going to start. Relationships are going to end. But if I am willing to continue to look at my part and see where I can be of service and disregard like what that other person has done or is doing to me without expectation, my existence is just so much better. When I live a world, well, I'm living in the world and I'm not gossiping and I'm not talking about other people. and I'm not scrolling through Instagram wondering why someone got something that I didn't. Life is just so much easier without jealousy and envy and resentment. And that's really, of all the things I've gotten here, it's just that.

It's that. It's that ability to really truly root for other people, be happy for other people, want other people to succeed, understand that I'm not perfect. And these are all things that, you know, growing up, they're not talking to you about in school or trying to teach you or, you know, it's two plus two equals four. And here's your diploma and go to college. No, you can't even get to that, you know. I mean, there's that quote. I forget who said it. Maybe Aristotle, I don't know.

But like an unexamined life is not worth living. Are you like getting philosophical on us, dude? But I love that quote. I forget whatever. Anyway, it's true. like and and what's happening in the world today though is that we are starting you know this self-analysis and self-reflection is talked about it is prioritized but what's the end the difference between what you learn in this process versus like just thinking about yourself all day is like

to then go be useful to then like go be active and engaged in life as life is versus like I'm aware of all this shit about myself and now I'm just more aware of all the shit about myself and that's the other thing about A that is just genius and so simple it's take these simple ideas put them into your life yeah well and I think

to a certain degree so where do I land with anonymity right like where do I land with everything that we're talking about today I I feel like I am going to keep living my life the way that I live it I know for a fact the world is finally paying attention. And if I had a 0.000,0001% influence on the world waking up and paying attention,

I'm damn proud of that. But just last week alone, we were talking about it. I mean, it was Rob Lowe celebrating a sober anniversary. It was Chet Hanks, who's Tom Hanks's son celebrating a sober anniversary. You know, it's last year, Darren Waller on the Giants wearing number 12. that's a number it didn't fall out of the sky right like you're starting to see it you're starting to see it and and and people are attributing their success and attributing the things that they have in their lives to their sobrieties and for a lot of these people i think that they just

accept that they are public figures and that their sobrieties or their recoveries are going to be a part of you know the public but but if you follow like I do embarrassingly People magazine on Instagram I'm shocked there is a post a week about someone

celebrating a sobriety miles on Eminem hosting his coin those coins I don't know if the people out there know and the 12 step community which if you go to those posts

if you look at Elton John you look at Eminem and you look at their post in terms of comments and clicks it is insane the way that people rally behind that and the number of comments one day at a time keep going I got sober here

I mean it's so cool for those of you guys that don't know those are sobriety coins those are 12 step coins the prayer on there is the serenity prayer which we learn when we first step into an alcoholic synonymous meeting and so just by posting those photos

a little bit they're outing themselves and that honestly man gave me the courage to be a little bit more vocal about my story. So for me, just dialing it back to anonymity and everything that we're talking about, I can finally say that word anonymity. It took me a while. That's how you know you're finally sober. And for me, it's, I'm going to, it's a personal choice. And the way that I choose to speak about my recovery and carry myself and talk to others and treat people. I feel like I do a pretty good job with it.

And that's what I'm just going to keep doing. I don't know how else to say it. And that's it. And it's circumstantial too, right? It's case by case. It's individual. But if you're someone who has a public life, that circumstance becomes a lot bigger, right?

And ultimately, at the end of the day, it doesn't really fucking matter what you say, man. If you go out into your life right now and you act like an asshole, like that's on you. Yep. So, you know, I've heard the most amazing people talk and say the most profound things and they're assholes.

Yep. So it doesn't really matter. We don't have that power. You don't have that power. And I think that, you know, I admire and I respect, you know, the way that you approach it. And it's going to continue to evolve because it's like how can you, it's such a fundamental part of who you are, you know, how can you not share it, especially if it is the point of it is to be helpful. and that's where it lands. Well, I mean, and I just go back to this, man.

Wholesale change, like real change in our health care system, we are so far behind in behavioral health care. We are so far behind. When you hear someone's in a psych ward or a psych unit, you get scared and you think of linoleum floors and straight jackets. You don't think about someone who, with the same level of love and compassion that you would if someone had cancer,

or diabetes or heart disease. And so in order to get to a place where someone being in a mental health facility is seen the same way as someone being at Sloan Kettering getting cancer treatment, I believe we're going to have to talk about this shit. I just do. And that still might not even be enough. But there's a lot of work to be done. And I dream of a world.

I shared this story many times. I was at the gala for the American Heart Association. Grace was there and we had a couple other people from our team. I was at the gala for the American Heart Association celebrating a hundred years. And one of the guys got up there and kind of said, you know, a hundred years ago, if you were diagnosed with a heart disease, it was a death sentence. It was a death sentence. And today, if you look at where we are in terms of cardiovascular health, it is no longer a death sentence.

In fact, most heart disease issues are curable. They're putting stents in vain. I mean, like the crazy, it's crazy what they do. And so when I think about that and I relate that to behavioral health care, I mean, I dream of a world where getting diagnosed as bipolar or getting diagnosed with a substance use disorder or getting diagnosed, God forbid, as an alcoholic is no longer a death sentence. It is no longer. Or a scarlet letter. Right. Right.

And in order for that to happen, I believe that we're going to need some pretty powerful, you know, agents of change behind it. So, I agree. Anonymity, man. It's crazy. But how, so, and then we can stop, but like, like, having this conversation, how do you feel now about, like, do you still feel uncomfortable? I gave up, man. I mean, I get, like, I, I, even coming off the show. I was so careful talking about it on the show.

You never be like, you didn't hear me say A, I mean, for years, interviews, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, but it started to affect me. Mm-hmm. Because I was asked about it so much and then I started to feel dishonest. So I'd be in interviews like this and I, I, I'd dance around it and it would get all super weird and I wouldn't feel like myself. And so there's a part of me that feels okay because I've just surrendered.

And I have to acknowledge that maybe my existence is just a little bit different than the next person. And I have to believe that it's a personal choice. And if, you know, man, I would hope that no one goes and drinks after this episode. But if someone hears this episode and writes in or finds a little bit of curiosity around what goes on at a meeting and they step into a meeting and they go and get sober and I never hear about it. then we, you know, we did our job. Yeah. Well said. So it's good to have you here.

I appreciate the riff. Thank you. Wear your fucking sneakers. I hope it was good. Yeah. What a first day for him. All right. That's all for today.

Jay DeVore in the house. Jay is just the best, man. It was really great to be here with you. And just a guy that has taught me so much over the past 12 years, not just about sobriety and recovery, but life in general. And I've watched him become a father and a husband and a business person and now a creative behind what we're doing here. And at the end of the day, man, that's what it's all about.

And the last thing, but like, you know, you just named a lot of things. Like, it's uncomfortable in a relationship to navigate these different areas. I mean, like, we see relationships that just explode because of, of business or other things coming in and it's like how do we how does a person hold a relationship that has so many different facets I mean even families you know get fall apart from you know business disputes and things like that and like what is that that is like the 360 view right that is like I am going to always look at myself and have to get honest about like what I'm doing you know and like that's how we can maintain this there's no other way yeah and that's that was

given in you know 12 steps don't tell anyone I just did I'm fucked all right that's it see you guys