The Zac Clark Show - Expert Nutritionist Believes the Key to Sobriety Is What You Eat | Dr. Brooke Scheller

Episode Date: January 14, 2025

What if your diet could transform the way you drink—or even help you quit altogether? This idea lies at the heart of Dr. Brooke Scheller’s innovative work. As a Doctor of Clinical Nutrition and founder of Functional Sobriety, she is redefining the recovery conversation through the power of nutrition. Dr. Scheller, author of How to Eat to Change How You Drink, isn’t just offering nutrition tips—she’s revolutionizing what recovery can look like. By shining a spotlight on the alarming links between alcohol and cancer and explaining how cravings often stem from blood sugar, not just willpower, she delivers a bold, science-backed approach. Her work dives deep into the physiological impact of alcohol on the body, showing why nutrition is a game-changer in understanding not only why someone drinks but why they keep drinking. Can recovery be more than abstinence? How does her work align—or clash—with the foundations of 12-step programs? And what does the rise of “sober curiosity” and Dry January say about where our culture is headed? Whether you’re sober, sober-curious, or just looking to feel better, Dr. Scheller’s insights will leave you questioning how you live, what you drink—and why nutrition is the key to building healthy life habits on a physical, mental and spiritual level.  For more information about Functional Sobriety, Dr. Scheller’s nutrition-based program for alcohol reduction: https://www.functionalsobriety.com/ For more information about Dr. Scheller’s book: How to Eat to Change How You Drink: https://www.functionalsobriety.com/book Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right, welcome back to the Zach Clark Show. Before we get rolling today, and I am super pumped about today's guest, I do, at the time of this filming, there are some devastating fires taking place in Los Angeles, in California. Very sad, very scary. Our guest today actually just moved out there, so she's feeling all kinds of emotions. So I just wanted to start by sending prayers, sending love, sending all the support that we can hear from New York out to our West Coast friends. and families and listeners and all those folks and hopes that by the time this airs that we are in a little bit of a better spot

but just wanted to give that some energy and attention and then move to today's guests who I am very excited about before introducing her I want to say that I'm excited because I, when I get on a

soapbox about recovery it is oftentimes about the very communities and how sometimes we don't like to play nice so harm reduction and 12 step and you know motivational interview like whatever it is right like whatever it is however you're getting well or making change there's this weird thing where like harm reduction will fight with 12 step and I never understood that so today's guest Dr. Brooks Scheller believes in the power of nutrition she's a

doctor of clinical nutrition. She's a certified nutrition specialist. She's sober and she's a founder of functional sobriety, which we are going to jump into. Did I do good? Did I introduce how we done? You did a great job. I mean, this is the second time you've introduced me. So I think you're doing a great job. Yeah, we did your book launch, which we have a copy of right here, how to eat to change how you drink. And I was talking to Brooke before. And it sounds like it's going well, selling some books, getting it out there, which is a huge kudos to you. Yeah, thank you. It's exciting. It published internationally when it launched in December of 2023, but this January, it's publishing in Spain in Spanish translation. So really exciting. And it just brings me a lot of joy that I can combine my passion for nutrition and wellness with something that's so near and dear to my heart, which is sobriety. Yeah. Yeah, and I want to get there because I'm curious about your kind of aha moment and how you ended up getting sober.

And it was kind of in this weird time. It sounds like right after COVID and with some of your background. But I want to start with the Surgeon General announcing this week that alcohol is being linked to cancer. So I'm going to read something if that's okay. And then I want you to respond because you're, you know, one of my goals on this show is to have people that are smarter than me here so they can break it down. And that's what Dr. Scheller is. Okay. So alcohol is a well-established preventable cause of cancer responsible for about 100,000.

thousand cases of cancer and 20,000 cancer deaths annually in the United States. So I hope those numbers stuck greater than the 13,500 alcohol associated traffic crash fatalities per year in the U.S. Yet, and this is where you come in, the majority of Americans are unaware of this risk. Talk to me. So speaking of getting on soapboxes, this is where I take a step right on top of mine um you know and and we can dive more into my story and and why i became so passionate about this but you know in going through my own sobriety journey and having a background as a doctor of nutrition with uh extensive knowledge in the way that the body works and in what we call functional medicine which is looking at the root cause of the symptoms or conditions that we

experience and many of us have known for years that alcohol is linked with cancer That new report from the Surgeon General showed that only 45% of Americans know that alcohol and cancer are linked. So that means, yes, more than half of the population is uninformed that this is something having a direct impact on their cancer risk. It's also contributing to specifically breast cancer and colon cancer, two of the cancers that are closely linked. And those two are actually the most common cancers that we see today. and so there's a few we could dive into the science if we want to get nerdy on it but it's really fascinating to me because there's so much media happening now about this and you know i think some people become afraid they they get worried about well what can i do how do i decrease my

risk or what if i i have a history of drinking and now i'm concerned about this and the good news is nutrition and supporting your body with food with supplementation with well-neutral tools is a really great way to decrease your risk. Right. Do we know why alcohol? It's the why? I mean, if it is a nerdy science answer, I'm here for it. So you said breast cancer and colon cancer.

Yeah. So there are seven cancers that they're speaking about now that it is linked with. Breast and colon are two of the most common ones, but also mouth cancer, esophageal cancer and a liver cancer, of course, and a handful of others. there's a few reasons why alcohol increases cancer risk. One of them is that alcohol is a toxin. It has a direct toxic effect within the body. When our body breaks it down, it produces something called acetylaldehyde.

And acetylaldehyde is a known carcinogen. It's actually on the Class 1 carcinogen list alongside of things like tobacco and asbestos. Awesome list. Yeah, it's a great list. And again, yet we had this belief that alcohol might be healthy. So alcohol as a direct carcinogen, it destroys cells in the body. So that cell death and that impact to the immune system is part of the contribution there. There's also a handful of other things that I like to talk about.

One is, and very relevant to the work that I do, alcohol depletes most of our nutrients. So all of our vitamins and minerals, the B vitamins, vitamin D, zinc, magnesium, all of the things we know we need more of. Alcohol basically washes it out of our system. And many of these nutrients are protective against stressors like these types of toxins. So if we're bringing in more of a substance and not having kind of the military to repair the body, then we can end up more susceptible. Does quantity and frequency matter? Like, if I'm someone that has, how does it compare, right? So how does it affect?

If I'm someone that three nights a week, I'm having one glass of wine versus seven nights a week having eight beers? So there's, of course, going to be a dose-dependent relationship there. So the more we drink, the more impact it's going to have. So that's often why we see people, especially coming into treatment centers, really depleted. There's a huge need for addressing some of these nutrient deficiencies, not only because they can reduce that cancer risk, but they also play a critical role in energy production, in mood, and so many other parts of what we're experiencing when we first get sober or we first go alcohol-free. Yeah, I mean, this is where, and then I want to ask you about the label, if there was a label, but this is where I feel like the treatment industry has failed us, and I've talked about it a lot on the show, which is like, Look, I got sober 13 years ago. I was in rehab, and then I started going to 12-set meetings.

And the overwhelming kind of messaging I got is, like, put the drink down, but if you want to eat a pint of ice cream and smoke a pack a cigarette today, that's fine. And I'm like, that doesn't feel aligned with kind of like this journey I'm on. So to a certain degree, I feel like there's an opportunity for treatment centers, for behavioral health care professionals to really look at, you know, what we're putting into our bodies, because that messaging is old and outdated. Absolutely. And, you know, I think that when you're first coming into it, and I actually say it in the

book, if you need to have some sugar to get through a tough time, I would rather you have some ice cream than have a drink or have a drug, right? So there's, I think, a fine line between where we kind of allow or support people and getting over cravings rather than just kind of taking it and running with it. So I do think there's a huge opportunity in centers like yours to bring in more support around healthy eating, around wellness and other tools that people can use to promote health. Yeah, I mean, I was even looking at your website, all the supplements that are available. And I love it. You have like the early sobriety pack and then like the veteran sobriety pack.

I'm like, give me, give me all of it. But anyway, I'm a sucker for supplements. Anyway, so the surgeon, Jenner. Okay, so a pack of cigarettes. I don't know what. I mean, like, that's the most obvious one with the Surgeon General warning, which when I was smoking didn't deter me from anything. Do you, I saw your Instagram post, which I love.

And the comments kind of went wild. Super viral. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where did you land with that? If the Surgeon General starts to put a warning label on alcohol, do you think it changes anything? I don't. I mean, I think yes and no.

I think that alcohol is interesting and different than tobacco in the sense of if you were going to smoke cigarettes, you would have to go out and purchase a pack of cigarettes, which has the label on it. If you were to drink alcohol, you might go to a bar to drink it. And are there going to be warnings on the walls inside of bars? That's something that needs to be considered, I think. But where there's a lot of opportunity is in conversations like this, because I think it's really, important to educate people, not just slap a warning label on there and hope that people read it, but truly help them understand these impacts and these risks to their health.

And, you know, we have done a huge disservice to our society by telling people that alcohol had health benefits. Because the reason why most people don't know about the health risks associated with it is because the media caught fire in the 90s and early 2000s saying that, actually this is good for your health right so now there's this level of confusion that's happening and we have some work to do to to help educate people and how do you respond to someone that would say to you but alcohol helps me it helps my anxiety it helps me get through the end of a tough week i i enjoy it i go out i mean like i always struggle because there's like these this isn't heart disease this isn't cancer

When we talk about alcoholism, there's kind of levels to this thing to a certain degree. So I'm just, I'm curious for you how you respond to someone that wants to continue drinking, but do it in a more mindful way. Is there healthier alcohols? So great question. And that's one that I get a lot to, especially maybe about a year or so ago, people would say, well, I drink the organic wine. It's the red wine. It's, you know, a specific brand. And sure, there are types of alcohol that have less sugar or.

less carbohydrates, but in essence, they all contain ethanol, which is the thing that makes you feel drunk. So that is the compound that is having these effects on your body. So even though it seems like wine is different than beer is different than liquor, they're actually in essence all still rooted from that same chemical compound. So unfortunately, there really isn't healthier alcohols, even though there's been different coverage to say, you know, the difference. But I think it's really interesting your question about, you know, but alcohol helps me in some way. And I actually had some other posts perform really well on social media in talking about cortisol and alcohol's effect on stress because that is one of the huge comments I get is, but stress is bad for my health

and alcohol helps me feel less stress. So therefore it is helping me in some way. And the reality is that the research over the last few years shows that alcohol increases cortisol, which is our body's stress hormone. So we might think that it's helping us because it provides us that temporary relief, but over the long term, it's actually making our stress worse.

It's actually making us less tolerant to stress. And so even though you get that kind of short-term, maybe relaxation sensation, the next day you likely actually feel more stressed. And again, that can perpetuate the cycle of why we then continue and keep drinking. Yeah, I don't miss the hangover. I also know that for me, it was fun until it wasn't, and then it was, like, so stressful, right? Because once I'm physically dependent and mentally dependent and spiritually dependent on the booze,

like I'm just, my entire life is surrounded about how to get the next one, right? So I feel, so I want to get into your story, but I want to hit dry January 1st because I'm sitting here with you and I'm laughing a little. I don't know if you're a spiritual person or if you believe things happen for a reason, but I'm laughing a little bit internally because you get sober in 2021, you make this you like lean into

everything that you're doing now and there's got to be a little bit of validation that you're feeling with the Surgeon General and dry January is everywhere and I want to have a friendly, maybe friendly conversation about dry January because part of me believes it's a little bit of a fad

but also part of me me like the hopeful part of me we saw tom holland right like talk about he got sober through through dry january so what where do you land with it i just yeah you get to the end of january and you're feeling good and you know like your emotions have been regulated and your brain chemistry is better and the brain fog is clearing like all the things you talk about and we know and then on february first you're dying to have that like i just yeah i agree well i'll start by just mentioning again lastly that surgeon general warning and this feeling of like alignment that I do feel and when we get into my story I'll share more about that that yes I do feel like there's a lot of purpose and

intention behind this this work that I'm doing and and the research that I've pulled together to support this and the last thing that I want to mention on that too is you know there's so many other health effects beyond cancer I talk a lot about that in the book and in the work that I do But even something like hormones, for example, which so many women struggle with hormone imbalances, whether that's PMS or menopause, that part of the reason why alcohol increases risk of breast cancer specifically is because of the way it affects hormones. And there are direct links between the way that alcohol is processed in the liver and basically the buildup of excess metabolism or excuse me, excess byproducts of estrogen in the liver. And so there's so many things as it relates to, you know, not only cancer, which is kind of like a long-term effect, but really stuff that affects us day to day, and that kind of leads into January or dry January as well. So my feelings on dry January are... So curious.

You know, I think it's great that people are more curious. They are interested. They are wanting to learn more. I do think there's fad behind it, but I think there are legs to this. And not that I think that I couldn't tell you or predict that in 10 years, people will still be doing dry Januaries, but I think it raises a lot of awareness around this topic. We saw in 2024 that somewhere around a third of the population were interested in doing dry January. We saw early research from 2024 showing that 41% of people, are interested in cutting back or drinking less. And so there is a major...

Is it the secret that no one wants to sell out? Exactly. Because you know, you've been there, right? When I was in my worst of my addiction, I was not willing to look at that. I was going to be the first person to poo-poo on that. And, you know, I think we've looked at addiction and alcoholism for so long as this, like, you have to hit a rock bottom,

you know, until your life, crumbles. And the good news with these kinds of movements and trends is people are realizing maybe before they get to that point that this is having an impact on them in some way. So while I do think that there are a lot of people that try to give it up, fail, go straight back to the bar, I think it's an opportunity for people to see what it might be like to make this change and also feel more supported. This is one of the huge things I talk to my clients about all the time is because there's so much awareness around these dry January sober octobers five years ago if you told someone that you weren't drinking right now they would

be like why not hey have a drink just have one you don't have a problem now if you say I'm doing dry January people are interested yeah they're not necessarily poo-pooing on that choice they're more supporting me a little bit yeah shifting me a little bit I you know I also I think for our work specifically, you know, when our patients or our clients get to us, they're at that rock bottom. They are admitting or acknowledging that they have a problem with alcohol. But I do think, you know, the sober curious thing or whatever it is, like it's a good barometer. If you're someone that's launching in the dry January and on day three, you're blacking out, you might want to look at your relationship with alcohol or you get through all of January and on February 1st

or second you're like going out and making up for the entire month that you just didn't drink I would say again like maybe want to look a little bit deeper at that relationship however if you you you know there's a class of people that probably engage with dry January get to February and like I feel great I'm going to keep this train moving and and I'm here for that because hopefully we're helping them avoid a whole litany of other issues that come when you're you know, your drinking progresses. You know, I'm going to give you an example of a client that I have who joined by... Can I ask real quick.

Are your clients male, female, or is it... Majority female, and my online programs and community is entirely female. I do have some male one-on-on-law clients. No, I think because there's more of an interest in the connection between health, and I talk a lot about hormones and gut health and metabolism and those things. So I attract a lot of women. But I have a female client in my online program, and she came to us drinking 365 days of the year. She had been doing that for years and really was questioning if she would be able to stop and wanting to stop, but feeling uncertain about her ability to do that.

And when she first joined, she wasn't really participating. She was kind of sitting in the background a little bit. And sure enough, she kept coming to meeting, she kept engaging in the content, and eventually she started a streak. She started, you know, counting to 30 days. She got to 100 days. She went somewhere around 200 days, alcohol free, and then had a drink at a wedding, and felt really guilty about, of course, then this relapse. And, yeah, that feeling is terrible, right? And since then, she's had a couple of other moments where she's drank.

again events like weddings etc and she you know we can look at this in two ways we look at this as oh man she she went back she had a drink but in the last 365 days she's only drank five days so this is someone who was drinking 365 days of the year and now drank five that to me is progress what I love for her to not drink absolutely but I really want to help support people in making change whether that is little bits of change or big change yeah i mean i think that's why i'm always talking about the word relapse and how much distaste i have for it because it keeps people drunk you know that moment at 200 days and you have that drink at that wedding i lost my time you know like no you didn't yeah you did a lot of really good work in those first 200 days and on day 201 you

drank so can day 2002 be the opportunity to kind of get back on it um So do you, like, so does she or do you, or do you, like, do they, do you identify as an alcoholic or does she identify as an alcoholic or what is, not to label it, but I'm curious in your own journey, like, you know. Well, I've been a 12-step person since my early days. Okay. But, you know, the way I frame it in the book, and it's actually part of the first chapter, is I say, this is not about, am I an alcoholic, do I have to call myself an alcoholic? Do I have to say I have an addiction to alcohol? And in my mind, while sometimes labels are helpful, I think they hold a lot of people back, right? Because there's a lot of fear of having to say these things out loud.

Even in terms of, you know, I started my programs and my content very specifically around sobriety. And over the last, even year or so, have moved more to talking about alcohol-free or alcohol reduction. because there is still stigma, unfortunately, around addiction. And so I kind of encourage people to do what works for them. And if calling yourself an alcoholic works for you and you feel comfortable with that, then by all means. But I fear having people, you know, turn a blind eye and wait for things to get worse before they start making changes. Yeah. No, we always say, like, whatever it takes to get someone in the door, right?

The idea that someone wants to change, I mean, that is, I mean, if you think about it, someone like you just described drinks for 20 years, 10 years, five years, I don't care what it is, you know, and you're pretty much asking to change everything about their life. Assuming that alcohol was this central point, you are removing that and now having to fill that time and that energy and that psychology with other things, that's really hard. Yeah, I mean, for most of us coming into it, it seems impossible, right? And that's where that whole one day at a time thing came from is if you have to change everything about your life, you can't think about the next year. You can't think about the next week. You really have to just stay right in the day. And so it is a huge change for everyone involved.

And even if you're only drinking, you know, a few times a week, a few times a month, it's usually still a really big change because our social circles are so woven into it. our family dynamics, our jobs, every part of our lives. Alcohol is present, and there's billboards all around us reminding us, too. Yeah, I mean, that jogged something for me, but do you provide support around some of the social inadequacies that people feel when they stop drinking? I know for me, I always share that in 13 and a half years of being sober, that the amount of times people have questioned what's in my cup is,

I can count on one hand, right? So it's not a reality that it happens very often, but we are seeing more mocktails. We are seeing more people interested in sobriety. When someone comes to you and says, I want to stop drinking, but I'm nervous to go out, or I'm nervous to go have a drink at a bar or meet friends. What do you tell them?

How do you coach them on that? Yeah, so my programs are kind of founded on a few different pillars. One of them, of course, being nutrition. Also things like movement. There's so much research around how, Fitness can, as you know, being a runner, can be supportive in our sobriety or alcohol-free journey. Mindfulness and bringing in that element of the spirituality or stress relief. But community is also a huge pillar.

There's a chapter in the book on community because I got sober in community. Community is in the research the reason why programs like Alcoholics Anonymous are so successful because you're surrounding yourself with people who get it, who you can. who you can relate to and who are providing mentorship and modeling of this behavior without alcohol. Well, it's believable, too, because they've been through it. I mean, that's what makes me uniquely qualified in a lot of ways to help the next guy trying to get sober because the first thing I say to him is like, dude, I've been where

you're at. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing, too. And I do want to talk about my story because. Yeah, let's go there. So you go to school for nutrition, you do all this work about the body and health. And then in 2020, 2020, you find yourself, tell me, tell me.

Yeah. So in the book, I say that I felt like I was living a double life. And I think we've all had those moments. Well, maybe you were, right? Yeah, I mean, in some ways I was. I definitely was turning a blind eye to a lot of things. But I don't think this is uncommon, unfortunately, in the health world. alcohol was quote unquote healthy and you know there's research showing that some of the

there's huge statistics around doctors and nurses who drink alcohol because they work high stress jobs and so it's not uncommon to find health care practitioners that are drinking and drinking excessively but I was a big drinker starting young teenager and Jersey. Yeah, Jersey Girl. Jersey Shore, not the one that you see on TV a little bit north of there. Oh, see, I'm a little bit south. So we kind of had it surrounded.

I go down to see Isle and Cape May and all that. Yeah, Jersey Shore Girl. We used to drink on the beach and have bonfires in the winter. And, you know, I just always found the drinkers, you know, after that, right? So when you create that social circle younger, you then just continue finding those people, right? Your family drink, your parents, family drinker, no? My dad is in recovery. Amazing.

My mom is not a drinker. Not much of a drinker anyway. So there is addiction and my father's side of the family. And, you know, I was always interested in health and nutrition and fitness and wellness. And, you know, I got a bachelor's degree in nutrition at Rutgers University. I drank all, you know, throughout my whole. undergrad college career and after that wanted to pursue a master's degree and during that time I was really surrounding myself in the wellness space but just like anywhere you can find the drinkers there too

right so I was surrounded by other people who were still drinking like I was and we were kind of just you know throwing caution to the wind in the sense that alcohol is um you know it's not that bad for us And it really wasn't until the pandemic that I always liken it to almost like the pot was on the simmer, like on the stove and it was like kind of hanging out there. And COVID like cranked up the heat and now this pot is boiling over. You're living where here? I'm living in New York City, working from home, living by myself, super isolated. And that winter between 2020 and 2021 in New York City, if anyone remembers, has trauma over it, the restaurants were closed, nothing was open. I mean, it was a very, very difficult time.

And that winter, I had always been like a five or six day a week drinker. And at that point, I started drinking daily, and it was starting to creep up earlier and earlier. And I didn't last very long like that, thankfully, because I was. I realized pretty quickly that I had really, really lost control. And at that point, you know, I got a little nudge from the universe from someone who cared about me who was just like, you know, you got really drunk this weekend. And in my head, I'm thinking, oh, my God, I've been getting this drunk every night for months. How cool is that if this person had that language?

You know, people come into our lives for certain reason. You know, they didn't come to me and say, you need help, you know. All they did was shine a light on it, and I was like, I know. That's awesome. And that day, I went to my first 12-step meeting and haven't drank since. Wow. And the most beautiful thing about it is coming into it, just like everyone else, like, you know, terrified of how do I do this? Like, what do I do?

How do I date? How do I have friends? How do I travel? All of the things that we think. about. And, you know, within a month or so, I felt like my brain cleared in a way that I hadn't not experienced maybe in my entire adult life. Yeah. And I was three months sober and sitting on my couch one night, nine o'clock p.m. I get this download from what I can only believe is the universe that says, you need to write a book on this. Yeah. And I grabbed my laptop at 10

o'clock at night and googled how to find a book agent, NYC, and ended up finding an agent, getting a book deal, and writing the book. And my whole life has changed and shifted because of this. I fucking love that because here's the deal. So many people get sober and they think their life is over. And here's a story where at 90 days, not nine years, not 19 years, because people want to catastrophize this shit. You're picking up a pen for the first time and writing a book. You know, like there's no, there's no way to explain that. other than you got sober? It is absolutely through sobriety.

And I can tell you the other really interesting thing is that for years I had on my goals list, write a book. I'm going to write a book someday. I always said, I have no idea what I'm going to write a book about. Someday it'll come to me while I get sober. And what I thought was the end of my life was actually this beautiful beginning that made all of the pieces of my life fall together.

Like I understood why I got that done. doctorate degree. I understood why I had the experiences that I had, you know, even including the fact that in 2017, my grandmother passed away and my dad's mother, and she was 50 years sober when she died. And I did not get to tap into her wisdom while she was alive because I was in active addiction at the time. But you knew she was sober. I knew she was sober. I didn't know. much about her journey but through my sobriety I believe that she's like she of course she directs me because one of the last things that she said to me before she passed away on the phone was that she's so proud of me and she was so proud that I was getting my doctorate because at that time I was in

school and I think back to that now and I think back to if she had something to say to me at that time it was going to be like go toward that experience because you can help people and you can transform people and transform the way that alcohol is viewed in society. And funny because at my book launch, remember there was one empty seat right in front of me. We were talking about how she's the dedication and we were like, maybe she's sitting there. She was. Yeah. I don't know about it.

That's incredible. Wow. That's amazing. so take us in just like because obviously you're sitting here you're put together you wrote this book like those final are you drinking like is are you going popa vodka like down the hatchet or you still like is there a sophistication like what is what does that look like those last couple days oh it was red wine of course just red wine around the clock it was well in the end there were some selters happening you know those things became so popular um toward the end of my drinking um the seltzer industry really popped then. It was a lot of wine. There was some liquor and things involved, but not a ton of that. It was, you know, moving from bottle of wine to box of wine because then you don't really know how many bottles you've consumed, a little more, you know, discretionary. Yeah. Alone. Alone. Alone, a lot. You know, I was always a social drinker until the pandemic.

You know, I used to say, I drink because I like to have fun. I'm. really outgoing. I'm really personable. I want to be out and about. And the pandemic really pushed me into an uncomfortable place. And that was where really the alone drinking picked up. And yeah, it wasn't pretty times. And, you know, even in those days, I would show up with my hair done and a nice dress on and, you know, look the part. And that's what so many people do is they say, well, you know, here was me with a doctorate degree living in New York, good job, everything on the outside looks okay. You believe in your own bullshit.

Yeah. And it's an excuse, right? It's like, well, I can't have a problem because I have a job. I, you know, I live alone in a major city. I have all these degrees. Look at all these things, you know, and coming into sobriety. And even now more in this, you know, in my fourth year of sobriety, uncovering more about what is it with the accomplishment thing right because I have this

accomplishment thing what you want more like oh yeah like and I think a lot of people do it's the it's the disease of more right and that manifests for us differently you know so one of my you know constant things is looking at well why did I do all those things why have I focused so heavily on those to kind of cover up what you know and and we all have these these internal struggles and demons and um traumas and all of that yeah unbelievable I'm laughing at the picture of you drinking box wine in your apartment and then like getting all done up to go out I always it's like I miss the seltzer train right so like for us it was you drink a Budweiser and smoke a camel light you know and now like these kids

today they're like drinking the seltzers and they're smoking on the jewels that look like USB like it's just like there's so much more available which is why I think the work that you're you're doing is so important just so people know there's a healthier way to live and I saw something the other day where I think the drinking is actually going down in younger people because they're kind of becoming hip to it yeah Gen Z I've heard it referred to as boomer technology to drink that's a fun new term that I heard that is It's kind of this old, outdated way to party and have fun. They're looking at this as this isn't cool.

They're doing other things. I think there's more marijuana in those groups. But Gen Z is definitely driving a lot of this change. But, again, majority of the clients that I work with are women, I would say, Gen X and women almost in the boomer era, you know, ages like 40 through 60, where they have major health effects because of this. They were told they're, you know, all along that this was providing them health benefits. And they're really looking for a solution that feels a little bit more in alignment with their decisions. And so, again, from a nutrition and health perspective, using some of the science and research that we have today to really help guide people to cut cravings to improve the way that they feel so that not only is it just about taking out alcohol, but it's about replacing it with these healthier behaviors. I love it.

Can I, I don't know if you'll view this as challenging or can I challenge you a little bit with a couple questions. So I think for me, so I guess my first question isn't a challenge. You have seen people come, read the book, get involved in your community, do the functional and like get sober, correct? Absolutely. And nothing else. They do nothing else.

They know no detox, no therapy. They're coming to you. They're engaging in their. Correct. You know, what I find to be so interesting about it is it's very rarely discussed, and this is something I feel so passionate about the physiological impacts of alcohol. So when we come into this journey and let's say we go cold turkey, right, your body is going through chaos because it is detoxing, you are severely nutrient efficient. you're probably dehydrated. You probably have a pretty poor diet, if I had to guess.

The approach that I take is really looking at how do we support your body to make this easier, right? Because we could be sitting there with our hands on the, you know, white knuckling it, or we can be taking certain supplements. We can be making certain modifications with our diet. And we can talk about some of these easy tips for people to implement too. that can make the process easier. And the community element is key, right? So we do need that community engagement.

It's not often that we go at it alone and are successful. But what's really fascinating to me is, you know, with my clients, not only do they end up cutting back or coming off of alcohol, but they're coming off of blood pressure meds, they're coming off of heartburn meds. I read the one testimony that was awesome. She said she was on meds forever.

and lost 30 pounds and yeah for years right and yes quitting drinking was part of that but through some testing some laboratory testing and analysis and providing her with a custom nutrition plan she was then able to get off of those medications and so it's really helpful to you know i'll use another example like mood um which is so under discussed as it relates to nutrition that certain deficiencies like the B vitamins, vitamin D, magnesium, zinc, critical for brain and neurotransmitter function. If we are deficient in those, we will feel depressed, we will feel anxious, we might have a diagnosed mood disorder. If we come off of alcohol and we identify these deficiencies and support them with food and supplementation, we can help that person feel better in a faster

timeline, right? So I think it's really important to take this physiological approach along with it because, and you know, I get kind of pushback on this sometimes, like I really believe that the physiology, the body piece is half of it. I think if we're not addressing the physiology that is off when we come into trying to get alcohol free or getting sober, then we are missing kind of a key piece of it. So especially people who are struggling go back out, have these different, you know, I know we hate the word relapse, but, you know, they go back and they drink, that there's something that's missing there and we need to figure out how to unlock it. I mean, look for me, I absolutely, I mean, like part of my motivating factors, I woke up in detox and I was,

I hated myself and I hated the way I looked. My skin, my hair. The whole, like, the whole thing was out of, out of whack. So I, you know, I appreciate you talking about that because, for me it's like whatever motivation we can get like whatever the reason is that you want to change this behavior I'm going to support that because you know unless it gets excessive right like unless it gets to the point where you know you're working out in an unhealthy way or losing tons of weight um I guess like what I'm trying to wrap my head around right like so for for me and maybe I'm a bad case study I drank and I did drugs because I was chasing a feeling right and so then when I got into sobriety um you know I still like I have a your relationship with nicotine.

Like the sugar thing for me is still something I have to be very aware of because if I start eating dessert every night, that doesn't stop, right? Like I joke that I've never been full from dessert. Like I can just keep gorging on it. So like there's things that I know for me that I struggle with because I'm chasing a feeling. So for the people, and this goes into cravings and everything else. So people that engage in your program, in functional sobriety are doing. Doing it in a way that is prescribed, for lack of a better word, and then they go out on a Saturday night and eat a bunch of dessert or, I don't know, sex comes into their life when it hadn't been.

Like, do you see these other behaviors kind of triggering people to go back to drinking? Or does that make sense? Like the dopamine chasing. What I want to say, though, using you as the case study is and listening to your story and gathering this information. one of the things that I love to do is to like do the like the mystery like behind the scenes trying to identify the root cause in your case I question what I would do is I would run neurotransmitter testing on you I would run nutrient deficiency testing on you I would run a stool test on you to look at your gut microbiome because my interest is in what is causing you to have that feeling

or that sensation and then how do we support that right? Right? Because if it is a, you know, truly a dopamine deficiency, which I think that's kind of thrown around a lot, that, sure, maybe some people do have a dopamine deficiency. There's a lot of genetics that come into play with that as well. But if we do identify that it is truly dopamine, and we find that you're low in five of these key nutrients that support dopamine production, then I'm going to support those because that's going to help you produce dopamine. so getting into the science and kind of getting into the specifics in a person's body you know the gut microbiome I have a whole chapter on the gut in the book as well and kind of the role that is played there if we have an imbalance in our gut microbiome that can manifest as mood imbalances that can manifest as cravings that affects our production of serotonin and dopamine and so it's really for me about helping people to identify identify what some of these pieces are and educating them that there are these other ways to kind of support those things that are going on. Yeah. It's very fascinating because you talk a lot about cravings and and again like my fear is always this, right?

My fear when I see people, like we've all heard the term dry drunk. We've all heard the term, you know, like we've all met the person that is just like white knuckling it. They're not doing anything. They're not doing functional sobriety. They're not doing AA. They're not doing therapy. They're just waking up on morning and they're like, I'm going to get sober. And they do that for a year or six weeks or whatever the length of time is.

And then they end up going back to that behavior, but far worse. So for me, I like to believe, one, I had a spiritual experience, right? Like at some point in my journey, I continue to stay in the work that has saved my life, which I've been open about with therapy. and the physical fitness and some 12-step stuff. And so, you know, I have my cocktail, for lack of a better word, that works for me. But for your clients, right, when they start to have these cravings, what do you say? Is that when you refer them to maybe a recovery community, or is that when you say,

hey, have you talked to a therapist about that? Or is it as simple as like, hey, let's look at how you're eating or how you're living? Yeah. So, you know, the way I look at my approach is it's complementary to other things, right? So I still recommend many people to go to AA meetings. My community has online support, but it is in no way intended to be a replacement for that if people find support there. So we provide education and resources for people who do need some outside support and help. We talk about things like therapy and try to break down some of the barriers. that might deter people from exploring these things and really encouraging them again as a, you know, part of a holistic treatment plan or support plan in ways to maybe become more comfortable with those things if it's something that they've avoided.

You know, the way that I look at it is the functional sobriety approach is kind of a way in for people. Most of the people that I work with are really interested in health. They're interested in nutrition. they might already be taking supplements. They know that they want the health piece of it, and they can't figure out the alcohol thing. It's brilliant.

And they don't feel like they're ready to go to AA. And my concern is I don't want them to just be lost until they find themselves there. And maybe they'll never find themselves there. So I think it's really important, again, to provide a whole approach. I think that individual attention is, really helpful in that instance.

I work with clients both one-on-one, but also in these kind of group settings. And it allows them to find the way that works for them, the way into the door, so to speak, whether that includes AA or a 12-step program, individual therapy, and the like. So some people get there, they just get there at a different timeline. So they come into this, they start exploring it, they get some time under their belt, And then they say, I'm ready to deal with the trauma. I'm ready to go into AA and they get there kind of as a secondary piece. It's so refreshing.

I can't stand when people come to me and say, I got the answer. I have the, like, no one has the answer, right? We're all doing the best we can to kind of support one another. And the fact that, you know, community is at the center of this thing. I mean, I always just think about like the, you know, the guy that comes to me or the person that I'm interacting with guy or girl. And they say, I don't want to go to AA. I have a guy comp, whatever their reason is. And I said, that's fine.

But you need to be engaged in a community. Are you going to work out classes? Is there a pottery thing you can do? Like, go dance with some people. You got to do something to be around other human beings. Because what we know is that like when we, when I, I'll speak for myself, am alone. Like, that's when my thoughts and cravings and all that stuff get the best of me. I will never claim to have the cure to anything.

my goal is there is a ton of research on this stuff sitting with dust collected on the shelves somewhere and my goal has been to pull some of these pieces together so I want to help inform people why the hormone thing is you know playing a role in their alcohol how their gut plays a role wow you've got digestive issues and you've you know you've got a drinking history that means we're going to support you in a specific way so it's really just about taking these other pieces, making them part of the discussion, making them part of the care plans for people, and really just bringing more opportunities for people to feel ready to explore this lifestyle. And if health and wellness is it, then I'm here for it.

Yeah, that's amazing. Can we play a little game? Yes. Okay, here's the game. There is someone that comes into your supervision, me, who is about the turn 41 years old. He is 13 and a half year sober. He's living in New York. city and if you open his refrigerator he's in trouble because there's basically a couple cans of seltzer water maybe some hummus to be dipped with a pretzel at late at night like my diet sucks i i live in new york i've never cooked um i'm outing myself like i eat most of my meals from a deli or a seamless where am i you're taking and so like and i can give you the profile Like, my mood generally okay, much better on days when I run.

Like, definitely sad on some mornings, generalized anxiety and depression when I wake up, especially when it's super cold and nasty out. But for the most part, pretty happy guy, like pretty motivated guy, pretty energetic guy. What are the staples that you're, we're going shopping together. Like, what am I looking for? I love this. I almost want it, like I'm making a visual of it, me and you at the grocery store. You know, it's interesting because as you tell me this and you share more about the cravings that you still experience, there's pieces there that connect for me in that, you know, one of the most basic things I talk about in using nutrition to support cravings is increasing your protein, which I'm sure you're eating a good amount of...

I don't do it enough. Well, maybe you are, and maybe you're not, which doesn't matter either way if you're not eating at the right intervals. So if you are skipping breakfast, if you're skipping lunch because you have a busy day, you know, I'm getting it right here. It sounds like. Breakfast is once every 10 days. Your blood sugar, I would have to guess maybe you're having some irregularities in blood sugar. That can affect your cravings. That's going to affect how you feel.

You know, living in New York City, especially in the winter, you're probably vitamin D deficient. So I would be getting you eating fish. a couple times a week at least you'd be eating protein at every single meal protein rich snacks really bringing in more veggies and colorful things so fruit and all of that

because this is this is no fruit at all I've never eaten fruit in my life ever not a single fruit you've never eaten an apple I'll throw a blueberry in a smoothie one I mean a couple I don't eat it people and now it's like this

game in my life where people are shoving apples in my face and I'm like I'm not like they're so desperate to try to get me to eat fruit I do not eat I don't get it I don't get it the texture the sloshy slash slash I just so I think the next episode that we do is me and you at the grocery store and it's picking things out at the grocery store and making getting you to eat a little bit healthier because I would have to guess even 13 years sober you're not in those early stages of like your body is still repairing or recovering itself but you may have longstanding deficiencies um I'd be so curious to run a nutrient test on you and see the full profile how does someone do that like who who does like for someone listening if they're like me or for me like what professional

am I calling to go like you okay like a nutritionist does that well some nutritionists will do it depending on their capabilities. Doctors can run these kinds of profiles, but the way that I work from a functional medicine perspective is we use specialized testing, so something like a nutrient deficiency test. If you were to go to lab core and have blood work done, they might test your vitamin D, they might test B12, sometimes they test one or two other nutrients. I use a specialized laboratory that runs a full panel of your vitamins and minerals. So it's going to tell your vitamin A, all of your individual B vitamins, your vitamin C, all of your minerals. And so this gets really, really specific.

For a couple hundred bucks, you can get really, really good information. And it's really helpful in, again, identifying if you potentially have a dopamine deficiency, but you're deficient in B12 and folate and vitamin C and zinc and iron, then I know that there are things that are contributing to that. So will repairing those fix all of your problems? Maybe, maybe not, but it is a huge step in the right direction. So my morning today, let's go real time. I woke up, I ran five miles fasted, a little caffeine before, was driving up here,

knew I had this, so in a pinch, I was at a coffee shop on the Upper East Side, and they had a, they make one a day, so they sold me on it. It's an everything croissant, but it had salmon. But it had salmon and cream cheese. Well, that sounds good. It was good. I whacked it back. I mean, like, I felt good.

It's probably why I feel good right now. And then a little bit more coffee after that. Like, am I better to have that bite of food or to, or is that the cream cheese and, like, are you processed? No. You're better to have the food than to skip the food because if, especially if you're early in your journey, alcohol-free or even coming off of drugs, too, this is still really relevant. That blood sugar is a really big. factor. And there are studies that show that people with longstanding alcohol use history do experience more frequent low blood sugar moments. Those low blood sugar moments are going to

manifest as cravings. That might be carbs, that might be sugar, that might be alcohol. And so think about 5 p.m. Right. People struggle at the 5 o'clock after work really craving a drink. Well, they're probably having low blood sugar. They haven't eaten since lunch. You know, they may be grabbed breakfast. They haven't had much to eat during the day. And I have clients that, you know, they get put on this strict protocol of afternoon snack, something substantial, not just a handful of nuts. And what they experience is they don't have that craving anymore because they've eaten. So I would rather you eat and get your blood sugar up. You always want to have protein. So if you were to tell me that you had a croissant by itself, I would say thumbs down because that's going to just spike your

blood sugar and cause you to drop back down. When we eat protein at consistent intervals throughout the day every three or four hours, we're going to have not only more stable energy, more stable focus, more stable mood. And when we think about things like anxiety, anxiety can be triggered by low blood sugar. So again, it's really important to, I think again, just educate people on the way that some of these things tie in. And a lot of times it's small changes. So even if it's starting with just eating breakfast, just eating lunch, getting some protein in the afternoon,

that can actually have a really big impact on your success. Amazing. Do you take Advil, Tylenot? Do you mess or you like totally, you get it from your food? Like if you have a headache, are you saying I'm dehydrated and I need to drink water? Are you like, I'm grabbing right for the adela? Advil. I don't want to feel anything. I don't grab right for the Advil. I usually will try other things before I do that. And I'll try to identify. Am I thirsty? Am I hungry? What's going on here? Sometimes I will. But I also sometimes will use turmeric or omega-3 as an alternative to that because they're anti-inflammatory. So I'm not averse to medications or over-the-counters and things like that. I think there is a role for many of those things. But I do think that as a whole, if you're ready to pursue your health on this journey,

that that can be a major factor in, again, improving your success. What would you say to the guy that doesn't, I mean, obviously you shared, like most of your clientele is female. Why are men, men don't talk about their feelings and they don't care about their nutrition? Is that what we know? Not necessarily. I think women are more interested in community. My community was male and female when we first started and then was about 90 plus percent female.

So we kind of boxed it in just for the sake of some protections and things like that. You know, a lot of the clients, the male clients I do work with work with me one-on-one. So again, they want that safe space. They want the help and support, but they don't necessarily want the community factor involved. and these are people kind of across the board some of them with background and going to 12 steps some of them you know trying dry januaries and trying to go from there we're going to link so the sub if you don't we're going to link the website the supplements because there's a lot of different variations in terms of where you are and and obviously

Brooke is friendly so I'm sure if you DM'd her asked her questions looking for some advice But I'm curious, kind of like my takeaway question or my getaway question would be it's January 9th of 2025. We've seen kind of the public perception of alcohol consumption change dramatically, I think. Where are we this time two years from now? Like do you – what is the future of alcohol consumption in America if you had to? to place a wager? So, 2024, we saw the first year since the early 90s when the research came out on alcohol or red wine and health, the first year that alcohol sales declined.

So I think there's a lot of movement in this, not only from a health perspective and things like the U.S. Surgeon General Warning, but also the rise in non-alcoholic beverages, the interest in things like dry January, the, you know, as the Gen Z, who is less interested in alcohol, ages and the boomers, you know, become older. I think we're going to see a lot more, I think this is going to become the standard. I think that those who are still drinking and drinking heavily are becoming, it's more acceptable to kind of address this at earlier time,

And I think it's just going to be more of an open conversation. People are going to be more open about cutting back or quitting. And it's going to inspire a lot of other people. So I think there's a lot of opportunity. And it'll be interesting to see where we go. Yeah, I mean, the thing I think about it, like, drinking is not cute. It's not a good look. And I'm just curious if, like, somehow they're being this camera on us at all times has also helped people kind of watch themselves back and be like, holy shit, I don't.

If I saw myself drinking, I don't know if it would have gotten sober sooner, but it certainly would not have been pretty. Yeah, you know, it's interesting because there's a part that I talk about in the book where I mentioned that when I was a teenager, what was on TV was Jersey Shore, filming right down the street from my house, the real world in road rules, reality TV, all of these things that were like glorifying drinking and sloppiness around drinking. and associating that with some level of success or some level of maturity.

And I think it created, I know especially in the millennial generation, I think that it did contribute to why millennials have such a high rate of drinking. And so I think that as we see less people publicly intoxicated all over, you know, the TV shows and things we're watching, I do think it will become like a head scratcher as to how we got here. Yeah, I mean, even for me, when I was, I mean, I was on the Bachelorette four years ago and, you know, one of the main questions I got coming out of it, which was very confusing to me is like, oh my God, how were you around all those drunk people? And to be honest with you, like, they were pretty, they were pretty good about it, you know, like the producers. And, like, it was definitely not being forced down anyone's throats. And I think they were aware of kind of like how much people were drinking. And so I think the cold, I think you're right. Like, that's what I'm saying. The culture has, has changed. I would be remiss if I didn't ask one more question because I feel like if I don't, I'll be selling myself short and the audience short.

How does disordered eating come into play with your work? Yeah, it's a great question. I would say maybe 20% of the folks that I work with come in with some type of background around that. And that is, you know, while there is an overlap here, Um, disordered eating itself is not an area of specialization for mine. So usually there's referral out to get some support with that. But, you know, again, it goes into these same mechanisms, right, in the brain and in the body. So, you know, that, uh, that lack of dopamine or if it is a, uh, a blood sugar issue or, you know, one thing that's really fascinating to me is there's a link between alcohol use disorder and genetics that code for leptin and

which are your hunger and satiety hormones and so there's a link between drinking how alcohol affects these hormones how we perceive hunger and satiety and all of that so you know i think there's still here's what i would like to see in the next couple of years is more research because there is some but there's not enough there's not enough research to say why is there this this link between the two. What are the best kind of support tactics for people who are experiencing this kind of this duo? And, you know, I think in so many areas, even beyond that, again, into these other places like how menopause is, you know, what's happening with menopause or PMS, the hormonal symptoms. Fertility is another big one. In 2021, there was a study that showed a link between alcohol and

decreased conception rates in people who are drinking. So again, we have all these, you know, major concerns happening in our society and alcohol, again, being this red flag that everybody's kind of turning a blind eye to. Fertility and cancer should be enough, right? I don't know. Yeah, you know, we might think, but. Well, nothing's going to get, yeah. It's hard to change those behaviors because, as you and I know, it feels impossible.

And it works. Alcohol worked for me for a while until it didn't. This was really awesome. I'm like very appreciative of your open mind. I didn't know what your energy was around what you do. And I've talked to people that like I said earlier do kind of come in with a hammer and like they're trying to sell something and I didn't feel that way, which is like kudos to you and your work. I think it's just a confidence that you know what you do works. So you don't have to really sell anything, right? So that's a beautiful thing. But if you want the book, you got to buy the book, how to eat to change how you drink. Dr. Brooks Scheller right here.

I'm sure it's on all the things, right? Amazon, Barnes & Noble, anywhere books are sold. And we'll link the website so people can check out the supplements. And I am going to go order a leafy green salad. with grilled chicken and some olive oil and some vinegar and maybe even throw a tomato in there for some color because I am committed to figuring out my nutrition. Yeah, I think we need to run a nutrient test on you.

I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. Let's do it. I work too hard in too many other areas to not take care of my body through food. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. This was fun. Yeah, it was good. We're going to go shopping. Let's do it. Cool. I'm in. That's all for today. Go eat something healthy.

Is healthy a bad word to use? No. Nutricious. Yeah, nutrient dense. Go eat something nutrient dense.