The Zac Clark Show - Former NBA Rookie Of The Year Opens Up About Mental Health Struggles | Michael Carter-Williams

Episode Date: October 15, 2024

Most kids who play sports share the ultimate dream—becoming a professional athlete, performing on the biggest stage under the brightest lights. Michael Carter-Williams lived that dream. His name was called on NBA draft night, he was crowned Rookie of the Year, and he seemed destined for NBA superstardom. But life moved in a different way, and his greatest challenges would unfold far from the court. The very traits that defined him as an athlete—grit, determination, and resilience—became essential in facing not only physical injuries but also serious mental health struggles, leading him on a journey of self-discovery he never saw coming. In this episode of The Zac Clark Show, Michael Carter-Williams opens up about the darker side of his journey through professional basketball, revealing the challenges that followed the high of winning the league’s top rookie honor. Michael shares an honest and raw account of his battle with anxiety and depression, shedding light on the mental health challenges athletes face behind the fame and glory. Reflecting on the pressures of professional sports, Michael opens up about the difficulty of sustaining a career at the highest level. He delves into the challenges of transitioning away from a sport that once defined his identity, how therapy became a life-saving tool during his darkest moments, and the crucial need to address and understand mental health issues in the world of professional athletics. Please give this important conversation a listen. The more high-profile figures share their stories, the more we can normalize how we think, talk about, and address mental health issues. Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right, welcome back to the Zach Clark Show. I am super excited, really, like, I would say like a dream guest today. Michael Carter Williams, not a dream guest because he played for my hometown, Philadelphia 76ers, but a dream guest because he is a man who is out there that played in the NBA and all that stuff's cool, but like talking about mental health, sharing his story, what's up? What's going on, guys? I appreciate you guys having me. Yeah.

You know, it's great to be on, you know, podcasts like this. you know talking about mental health and trying to be that voice yeah dude i mean so grateful you're here and we're going to get into all of it um but i want to start there because i feel like for me you know my biggest asset is my story and once i finally told that and realized that it has power and it has weight and the response i got i kept telling it so why i read your players tribune article which was awesome why did you decide to start talking about your story and your mental health and some of your struggles yeah i mean i think it was a multiple um it was for multiple reasons i think the first reason was because i felt like a lot of the time people had always something to say

about athletes right like you see you know some athletes going through something and they're not at the top of their game and it's always judgment judgment judgment which is fine right it's part of the game like you know we get paid a lot of money you know people like sports fans like sports so you know that comes you know with the game um but i just felt like a lot of the time athletes don't get to say their peace and what goes on behind closed doors um so i felt like throughout my career i kind of you know kept quiet didn't really say too much like just kind of focused on my career trying to maintain trying to get through injuries trying to get through you know some mental stuff and and tried to block kind of everyone out.

And, you know, when my career was coming to an end and to wind down, I was like, you know what, I want to put something out that, you know, it's from me and to be like, this is kind of what's going. Like a lot of people have opinions, but like now have your opinion on the full picture, right? Like, what does that look like? Would you still say the same things to these athletes if you knew the full picture and what's going on? Like maybe instead of coming down on athletes that, you know, you may offer them some support,

you know, in a different. mind frame um so social media i mean that's like yeah i mean it can be a killer for some people and it was for me for a long time right like i used to read in the comments used to get frustrated used to play to try to prove other people wrong like that was me for a long time like fighting playing that game did you so when you talk about not feeling like you could talk about mental health or keeping stuff because i i relate with that was that because of the higher like working for the man the NBA, PR, like felt like you had a muzzle on? Or is it because you just felt like as a man you're supposed to be tough and able to deal with? Yeah, I think it was both, right? I think it was a little

bit of like, I don't want people to judge me in these, you know, executive roles who like, maybe people don't want to have me because I've been going through something or maybe I wouldn't sign this next contract because it's a sign of weakness. Yeah, it's a sign of with, you know, but I also think that in my mind, I didn't really know I had these issues, right? I didn't know I had these problems because I was always, you know, I always had the mindset of just fight through it, fight through it, fight through it, fight through it, like just grind it out and eventually it will end and I'll turn the corner or I'll try to, you know, if I had a bad day, oh, it's a bad day. I just need to turn the page and move on to the next thing to try to, you know, be in a better

mind frame instead of, you know, realizing like, okay, there's a problem here. I may need some help. I may need to get it fixed to get to the next step. Yeah. Yeah, so I want, okay, yeah, so, so much, so many areas I could go, so many ways they could go. So I want to go back. So you grow up, you're from Boston, right? Yep. What is your grandfather? Well, you want a house playing poker or some shit in the 1950s?

What's that story? Yeah, so my grandfather, he grew up in a small town, small white town called Hamilton. Not a lot of black people there at the time. Uh-huh. um won um a poker game won um a massive amounts of land and then he built um a horse farm a horse stable um on the land um so he used to break in horses um and then he let my mom eventually you know down the line build um a home on the land as well so it was weird like it was we lived in a really really wealthy town uh with a lot of money um

but we didn't have a lot of money. That's what I picked up in the article. You said, like, well, it was fascinating to me because you said you're living in this big, big-ass house, four or five-bedroom house. So on the outside, it looks like you guys have it going on. But on the inside, you're eating Ilios, hemich chickens, and just like trying to get by.

Exactly. Yeah, that's. Which had to be confusing as a kid, right? Yeah, it was. It was. Because I'd be like, mom, like, how come we can't, I can't go do this or how come I can't get this or how come I can't get that? That these other kids in my school, you know,

have these certain. things. But yet I wasn't able to, you know, have those things or participate in certain activities. But, you know, my parents, I mean, my dad, my mom, my stepfather, my stepmom, my grandmother, they've always, they always try to do, you know, what's best for me. The things that I needed, you know, the sports that I played growing up, you know, was always provided for me to go to camps and everything like that. But yeah, it was confusing at times. And, you know, same thing with my brother and sisters. They were always like, it took them, you know, a little bit to realize, like, you know, like, we're not really like the rest of the people here.

But we lived in a town with unbelievable education. So we grew up in a great educational system. It was safe, one of the safest places to live in Massachusetts. So we were always safe. And I think as a parent, you know, that's just the goal you want for your kids, right? To be educated, to be safe. And, you know. And then you start kind of going into Boston on the weekends.

is that right and running around and playing ball and that's where kind of you start to so my my dad and my grandma they lived in Boston they lived in Cambridge at the time when I was younger so I had a bunch of I had a bunch of family down there like my cousins a bunch of friends I would live down there so during the week I'd really be at home in north of Boston and then I'd go into the city and you know hang out with a lot of them play basketball there a lot of at home it was really just like individual workouts with like me and my stepfather which like you know the reason what it took me to where I was is just the amount of work that we put in right at home in our backyard that's the other thing is lost I think with a lot of these stories that

you read about you don't just wake up in the NBA you don't just wake up at like doing something at the highest level possible and what no one sees or what people fail to remember is that thousands of hours of work and sacrifices and just grit went into getting you to where there's plenty of guys who were six six that are not in the NBA yeah no for sure like my childhood grown up was like you know if I had a even as far as in sixth fifth grade right like people would ask me like oh you want to come over today and I'd be like all right I will but like I got to go home and I got to like work out first and then I can come to your house and like hang out whatever um you know on the weekends it was like you know you're not doing nothing until you've

done your dribble and you've done your shooting um you know and a lot of the times Yeah, I actually had a kid come up to me like a couple of years ago and be like, I can remember like it was yesterday. We were in sixth, seventh grade. I asked you to come over and you told me that I needed that I had to go. You had to go work out first before you come over and you'd be like, oh, like I'll work out. Like we're in sixth grade. Like what are you talking about? So like that was my household.

And the same thing follows you with my brothers. Like all my brothers had scholarships to college to play for free. My sister had a scholarship for basketball to play for free. So that was always the goal, right? because we didn't have that much that much money like it was like you know my stepfather as motivational piece he told me like it was either you know you go get college for free or you're going to go in the army but like he was using that as motivation years later he told me he would never send me to the army but like that was the the you know kind of the drive I know my dad

did the same shit to me he was like he wanted me to play college baseball so we saw like five colleges in one day and we were in this old truck and he's like if you go to this school because it was cheaper yeah I'll give you you the truck you go to this school down the road like you're paying for it but he got me right exactly he's like whatever um but it's interesting as i hear you talk about your story and like this kid that came up to you because we had we had a doctor on the show like a week or two ago dr naobi way and she talked about so boys right like boys 14 15 16 years old she's been following them for 40 years yeah right like from 12 to 17 she's been following their patterns following their

behaviors and she's fascinated by like the mental health crisis that we're currently experiencing and what she says is that boys and men are telling us the answer we're just not listening right and the answer is exactly what you just talked about friendship connection community like as a as a young boy sometimes it was hard for me to navigate relationships with boys because I thought it was not okay for whatever reason or whatever society was telling me and that then, you know, as I kind of like grew up, you know, you become interested in girls and then you start, you know, like you just evolve. And when we get into our 20s and 30s and 40s, like real meaningful connection with men are less and less. Yeah. And, and, you know, as you

bring that up, I've been working with this company called Ender. And they provide an app that is peer to peer connection first for student athletes. that's great um just talking about you know different issues that they have um big small you know just just trying to really get push the conversation of mental health going on um i've been working with them for a little bit now and it's been a it's been a really good process um just a stepping just a step in a direction of you know keep pushing the narrative of mental health um yeah it's funny that you said that and i i agree like i really do think that i found a huge impact on when I went through my mental health, you know, kind of crisis and I got over that hill,

you know, just kind of seeing other guys being able to pinpoint like, oh, man, like, I can tell he's going through something, like, being able to go up to them and be like, hey, like, you know, what's going on? Like, I can see that you're not playing. I can see that you're quiet. You're away from everybody else. Like, it's okay to be upset about what you're feeling, but like, let's sit down. Let's have a conversation about it.

Like, you don't need to handle this alone. Yeah, spot it. You got it. You've been there. Right, exactly. And I think that guy is more likely to open up to you because you wrote that article and you've been vocal about it and he knows that you're a safe person, right? Like so much of this is, I always say, like, therapists are great and doctors are great.

And psychologists, they're great and they help me tremendously. But the people that have helped me the most are the ones that have been through it. Right. I know I can call you now and be like, yo, dude, I am, it is a dark day or, and you'll get it. Yeah. And you'll hold that space for me. For sure. Which dudes don't typically have.

Yeah, it's tough. All right, so you go on and like, you know, it's hard to talk about your story without the hoops, obviously, because it's such a big part of you. But, you know, it's like I also, I have sympathy for that shit because I had this stint on reality television. And so like whenever I'm asked to go on an interview, they're like, they want to talk about the Bachelorette.

And what was it like getting out of the limo? What was it like being on TV? And, you know, I think you probably had the same experience. Like, what is it like? like on draft night what is it and you kind of get tired of answering the questions i don't know if you do but i i did yeah no i could i could see how you you got that feeling um yeah i mean it's it's it's it is definitely is tough to always talk about the past right like everyone's goal is to live in the present and try to do present things and like things move on um but then on the other

hand you understand what people are saying like you understand like you know the questions that are going to be asked because they are it's genuine it's interesting but like yeah at times i can be like you know like people ask me like oh what was it like winning the rookie of the year like what was going on in your mind i'm like i was 10 years ago like you know what i mean there's so there's so much that have gone by like obviously it's things i'll never forget it was the greatest you know one of the greatest feelings i've ever had um but yeah no it gets you know it gets redundant for sure yeah i feel that you just helped me change some perspective on that so i appreciate I appreciate you for that.

So, okay, you go to Syracuse. When is the first time that you stop and say, when you learn even like what anxiety or depression is? Is it all the way down the line when it finally happens to you? Yeah, yeah. I think I went through some stuff at Syracuse. Didn't really know at that time what was going on, what the anxiety was.

you know I was a McDonald's All-American in high school I was in the Jordan classic in in high school like I was top 25 in the nation right and then I go to Syracuse and we have a bunch of upperclassmen we were like 30 and three like we were on real we're number one as a freshman nation as a freshman yeah I didn't play though I didn't play a second um played in like in the little bit in the beginning you're freshman year you didn't see the court freshman year didn't see oh wow so I was watching my peers you know I'll watch Watching Austin Rivers at Duke, watching Michael Gilchrist at Kentucky, watching Anthony Davis. Like watching all those guys playing.

I'm like, man, like, these are guys like I was going against all the time at different camp. LeBron James Academy. Like all these different camps that I went to, I'm playing against them, doing, you know, doing my thing. And I get to college and I don't play. And I watch them be successful. I'm like, man, like I should be playing. But on the other hand, we're not losing. Right.

So it's like, as a coach, you don't mess things up. Bayheim, right? Bayheim, right? Yeah. Coach Mayheim is like, listen, son, we're 20 and 0. And you're sitting here complaining. Were you making? No, I was, I was pissed.

I was like, yo, like, I should be playing. Like in practices, we had, we had, it was like me and Dion Waiters off the bench. Like, we had serious guys coming off the bench that were like really good. Like our second five and our first five, you didn't know who was better if you went to practice. Right. I love that. So, like, but that's the reason why we were so good. And Charles Lerner was there on the sideline.

Yeah, Charles was there. Charles was like, holy, holy, like, what's going on? You can tell you all about it. Shout out, Chucky. But when I really realized, you know, my anxiety, my depression, like, was an issue, was in Houston. I had got caught cheating on my, my fiance at the time, wasn't living right, was living a, living in an unhealthy lifestyle, smoking weed all the time, you know, using it as a crutch, wasn't happy on the court. felt like I wasn't getting the chance to perform the best I could. I was dealing with injuries.

We just had a six, five-month-old baby. I was dealing with a lot at the time. Didn't know, you know, I was using different crutches for my anxiety to cheat, to smoke, to do all these things, to do in an unhealthy way. She found out she left me. And a week later, I got released from Houston. So now I'm sitting in Houston. This is 2019.

I believe so. I think so it's 2000. Yeah, right before, right before. So you were like in the league five years or so at that point? Yep, I was in league for five, five, six years at the time. So I didn't know, I didn't know what to do, right? Like I just got released from it. I've never been released from a team of my life.

The love of my life just left with the baby. One of my biggest fears in life is growing up and not having my kids knock her up with the same mom and dad in the same household. That's how I grew up. That was one of your fears. That was one of my biggest fears. because I grew up and my stepfather was great you know my mom was my mom was awesome my dad me and him built a relationship over time which was great beautiful my stepmother is great um

but for a while it was it was a lot of things were rocky growing up in my household like mom dad didn't get along like that like it was just different right it was just when I was in high school there was frustrating moments where like I'd have birthday parties and like I'd be like man like I'm uncomfortable because well you probably carry that shit around like that's what we don't understand about anxiety and depression and when they talk about trauma right like in 19 when you're starting when it's tea right when she walks out you get cut you your body reacts to that in a way of like oh my god like i'm i'm my kids are going to feel the same way i felt yeah yeah so that that was going on with me um i wouldn't leave the bed for days wouldn't leave my house um i ended up moved i ended up move

I ended up leaving Houston going to California to be closer to Tia and the baby, Tia and Charlie. So I could see her more often, just, you know, be around. So was working out there. I got a call from Orlando. But I just want to hold up because I think this is important for people to hear. So it's 2019, 2020. You're playing the NBA.

Yeah. You're making a good living. You have a child. You have a beautiful fiancee or girlfriend. No, no, no fiance at the time, yeah. You've won rookie at a year. You've made the final four at Syracuse. On paper, your life is the life that every little kid dreams of, right?

Myself included. Yet, you can't get out of bed. You are not happy. You are scared to wake up, I would assume. Can you, like, really. zero in on on on on that moment like that like like like back in 19 when you're lying in that bed is it is it sadness is it darkness is i want to end this thing or like what is the yeah i mean i think that all the emotions you know kind of hit me like i was sad i was

frustrated i was mad at myself um yeah i mean when i wasn't sleeping when i wasn't in the bed when I wasn't asleep, it would just be, it was like, it was, it was like torture. Like, I wasn't eating. Like, I remember, like, I remember it was, it was, it was, it's even wild for me to even speak now. Like, I heard, like, I would hear people calling my name and like nobody would be there. Yeah. Right. Like, it would be like. That paranoia. Yeah, it was, it was, like, I was paranoid. And the first time I, I, I, I was experiencing that. And then when I went to Orlando, and I was still in that same state, right? I was still in the same state of depression, anxiety.

And when you sign with Orlando, do you feel like a fraud? Because you know you're struggling with the mental health. Or are you like, I just got to get my money? Yeah, I think I was looking for anything to latch on to, to be like, I got to get my mind. I got to get out of this. And it was weird because I'd walk in the facility and nobody could, nobody would be able to tell what I was going through back in home. Like I would try to be the happiest person in the gym because I felt like this is the only way I'm going to stay. Well, there's that commercial out now where the dude's are in this.

I don't know if you saw it, but there's two dudes at a soccer game. And the one dude is like happy and cheering and the other guy's kind of like reserved, like you kicking it, whatever. And then they cut for like six months later and the dude that's cheering isn't there. And the whole message is like, you know, suicide can happen to anyone. No, it's true. And it's like I would try to put on this because I only had a 10-day contract. Right.

So I had 10 days to show the team that like I can get signed for another 10 days. So, like, for me, I was like, man, I got to go there. I got to have the most energy. I got to have a smile on my face. I got to help everybody out. Like, this is, you know, like, I just was released from a team. I don't have this long year to show everybody what I can do. So I got 10 days.

So I, you know, put a smile on my face to the best I could for 10 days, got another 10 day, then got signed for the rest of the year. But during that time, I was talking to the therapist on the team. Is that the first time you talked to a therapist? That was my first time talking about it in your life. in my life so you go to Syracuse you go to the MBA you're a part of three or four organizations at this point and not once did anyone say to you hey man you probably have a lot of pressure have you ever talked yeah I mean I would have like my family like my mom or my

stepdad but it's like yeah it's like no mom like I'm good like I don't need I don't need that like I'm fine I'm fine and I think that was the first time I talked to a therapist and he referred me to a psychiatrist and then going back to the you know hearing people call my name he had asked me he was like have you ever heard anyone call your name but like no one's there and like i thought like i was like i was like i was dumbfounded like i was like what like actually yeah but like what is like what is that and he was just telling me that's like a a deep sign of depression and depression runs it runs in my family like i like i had a grandmother she committed suicide do you remember that i was only one so I obviously I don't remember that but like the people in my town that I speak to

um that that were there were like it was one of the most tragic events that you know I've ever you know I've ever been because she was known in the town and happy person or like what was I don't know it was just like such a traumatic experience like it's like a thing that's really isn't it's not talked about in my family that much like it's it's like a something that It just isn't really spoken about too, too much. But, yeah, like, I know that, you know, that runs, you know, deep into my family. I know at that time, I mean, my mom was 20 when she had me. So she was pregnant at 1920.

And then a couple months later, her mom commits suicide. And so the, that, you know, stress, that anxiety, that depression, like, that trickles down, you know, you would know best, right? like you talk to a lot of people you're in the mental health space like those those that trickles down into fan like I lived in seven eight places before I was two like those like and even till this day like right like if I'm moving around I'm doing a lot of things like if I'm not having a there was a while where I didn't have a steady household and I would feel this anxiety I'm like why like why am I feeling like this like I don't like when I was in hotels and Airbnb's of when I was like moving around in different places in California

you're trying to see T. and Charlie, I would have this, like, anxiety in me that I didn't know where it came from, why it existed. And it's just because, like, a lot of things that I had to unlock in therapy and, like, past traumas and, you know, go through those things and actually heal those so that, like, I would be okay in unfamiliar circumstances. Do you ever find your, man, dude? Thank you so much. This is unbelievably helpful. and just I promised you that you're helping people with this. Do you ever find yourself ask like why you? Why you found the willingness?

Because there's a lot of people out there struggling. And there's a lot of people that will have the same life experience that you do maybe minus the NBA. But I don't care if it's the NBA or it's, you know, you're on the junior varsity team and you wanted to make varsity. Or like whatever it is, our stories are all, you know, unique to ourselves. And our feelings are the same, you know, the way we. feel about certain situations but do you ever feel like grateful that you found therapy like what

like 100% um i'm really grateful that i found therapy like i feel like it's really amazing how a person could sit there and talk to you and lead you to answers like in your life from the past like i feel like that is like a skill that like is just like amazing right like you can i'm feeling this way and you could say, hold on, like, let's go back to this place. And how did this make you feel? They can ask me questions to lead me to answer my own questions. Yeah. I feel like that's a real talent in this world that people have.

And, like, I'm super appreciative of it because it's helped me, you know, immensely. Like, even I talk to my wife about everything. Like, I try to explain to her my feelings. But sometimes it's like, you don't have anxiety. You don't have depression. So, like, she sits there and I was like, I am so far from these feelings. that like, I don't even know what words to give you. She tries to, you know, obviously tries to do her best.

But like, like you said, like unless you go through it and unless you kind of really, really understand it, then, you know, it's hard to comprehend. And these therapists, they're able to take that information. And like I said, lead you to different answers in your life. So that's why it's so important to me. Yeah, if you're listening to this, I think it's important to not to use. c w as a as a you know mascot for therapy but if he's someone that has you know operated at the level he's operated and it had the ability to put his hand up and ask for help like for me

the message here is like therapy is always an awesome place to start i'm laughing because you know i lot i had therapy this morning and i logged on and she asked me how you know you know like i'm okay she's like somehow i don't believe you you know what's going on you know because I've been in a little bit of a jackpot the last two weeks just and it's nothing on paper yeah it's just that black cloud that anxiety that that that that shortness of breath that you know like it's just and it's so even this conversation today is helping helping me all right so you get introduced to therapy in Orlando and what what happens you start to unlock a part of yeah I think you said in the article there's uh would you say meant do you remember

you said mental health is a puzzle piece that allowed you to unlock a life that you didn't know yeah that i yeah i i didn't know that it like i like i go to therapy for small things or or big things right like it's the small things that fuck me up right and i think what does this text message mean yeah you know like i hear about someone passing i'm like i know what to do now like i suit up i show up i'm of service i love i call i check in yeah but it's like the it's like to your the little thing it's like what what she mean here yeah no yeah i yeah i i i i i i know i i i i i get that too and I think it's a I think especially for anyone all we're all trying to perform at our highest level whatever we're trying to do you know from the smallest job to the biggest job you know

in the world and I think that therapy gets this misconception of like you have to have gone through something so crazy in your life that you now you need therapy right or but like I think that therapy should just be like can be for I'm not 100% like I'm not on top of my game like I don't feel like I'm the sharpest dude ever right now and like something's lingering over me and I just need to get rid of that this week so next week I can be at the perform the best I possibly can and I think that if people can start to understand that then they'll be a lot better off because for me it will start with I mean I'm sure you know how it is like you have an off week don't do anything about it then it gets a little bit worse and you're falling now you're falling down in the

hole and now you got to do massive amounts of work to get out of this hole that you just put yourself in and start second-guessing yourself and whatever you're doing and then you know you could lead lead to different crutches that you're trying to use whether it's drugs alcohol you know something to make you feel better right and um so yeah I mean I try to use therapy as much as I can right like if I'm not feeling right and I can't pinpoint what you're still seeing the same person that you from Orlando um so I don't see the team therapist anymore I found another therapist in Orlando, which was great for me, which she was, she's awesome. She's, she's great.

And so, I mean, it's a happy ending, obviously, which I love. Like, we want to hear the solution. We want to hear hope. We want the listeners to feel like, all right, here's two dudes talking about some sad, some sad, Zach Schip, but like also two guys who are generally pretty happy. So what, what, how does the story end? You end up in Orlando, you play there for a couple of, and then you go Charlotte or is it. No, so Orlando was my last thing. Okay. So yeah, so when I went to Orlando, I found a home

there. I loved the organization. I spent four years there, the latter end of my career. I built great relationships, had my kids in school, T and I got back together. We had another kid. So it was Charlie and then Red, Red, Red. Yeah, Red's a three-year-old boy. Yeah. So we had so we got two kids still living in Orlando. Her and I, we work things out. That's been a long road in itself but um we work things out we're we're in a great place we're continue to work on our marriage i see the smile underneath you yeah yeah like when you talk about her shout out to you yeah no she's she's she's she's unbelievable bro she's she's done things for me that when did you meet her i met her in college okay so at syracuse yeah i met her at college at syracuse yeah so um yeah

no she she's been my rock man like she she's helped me through so many different steps of life And I think, like, when you look at yourself 10 years ago and I met her in college 10, 11 years ago, and she's been through the evolution of me growing up as a man, like, you get to a point where you just look at life differently. Like, you reach a certain age, you have kids, I don't know what it is. You just look at life differently. And she's been there with me every step of the way. So, yeah, like, I'm, you know, always forever grateful for. for her and she's helped me in so many different ways can i ask a question about like NBA culture

sure locker rooms whatever it is so i'm curious does therapy and mental health treatment peer-to-peer support what place does that have in the NBA now are guys is there a stigma are you not cool if you're doing that like what is the i think the stigma is just not talked about, right? Like, we talk about everything in the locker impossible, girls, money, jobs, you know, places to visit, you know, vacation spot, like whatever, if you think about it,

we talk about it in the locker room. We spend so much time together. Our seasons long, we play 82 games. We're on flights. We're doing this. We're like, we talk about everything, but mental health. And I think it's a, I couldn't tell you why.

I know the NBA and different teams. teams are trying to implement, you know, they have team therapists. I was lucky enough that Orlando had a team therapist, right? They were blessed enough, you know, they blessed me enough to, you know, kind of have that there and have that resource. But it's not easy for guys to go and be like, listen, I need to talk today. Like, I need, I need this and I need that. So that's one thing I try to do when I was playing, right? Like, have those one-on-one conversations be like, bro, like, what, like, what's going on? Like, how's family life? Like, you know, is, you know, is everything, is everything all right? Like, what's the word? And,

And I felt like a lot of guys, they would open up and they would say, like, I'm going through this, you know, my girlfriend and my mom don't get along and it's causing me stress and, you know, this, this and that. And there's just a bunch of different things that guys walk on the court with. And I'm like, these are fixable things that you don't have to take on the court with you, right? Like I get it. Like there's a signal of, oh, the court, the field, wherever is my safe place, right? when I go there, I don't have to think about everything else off the field or off the court.

But it's like, you know, the therapy can help you with those off the court activities or off the court issues that when you get on, that you'll be a lot better. So I'm trying to create that conversation. Like, it's okay to go through some mental health issues and get that fixed. Yeah, something that's been coming up for me and a lot in my work and the mental health work is you hear a lot of people say, You don't have to feel that way. And for me, I kind of look at it. I did have to feel that way. Right.

I had to feel like my days were numbered. How do you respond? How do you respond if I say, do you believe that you had to feel the way that you did in 2019 in Houston, those five, six days in that bed to eventually break free? Like, do you now value that? experience yeah yeah i think so for sure i had to for the way i feel now and the way i view things now i i i would have to go through everything right went through um which is a tough pill to swallow right like it's it's it would kill me to be like yeah like let me go through all those things

again so i could learn that like learn this lesson um just because it was so hard right it was so hard seeing them leave tia and charlie like it was so hard you know opening up and being okay with you know talking about my feelings uh spending you know days on end in the bed not wanting to do anything like those are hard things to do and hard things to get over but i know if i didn't i wouldn't get to the place that i am today and it's like you know i don't know what if you know what if my daughter has anxiety growing up my son has anxiety growing up like now i know that like i'll be to help them from the beginning. And if I didn't go through everything I went through,

then I probably wouldn't be able to help them the way I can now. In the spirit of therapy and the locker room therapy within an NBA organization, if you have a therapist, your rookie year in Philly, and throughout your career, does it look different? 100%. How? Because I know when I was in the right mind frame in my life,

I know if I had that from the beginning. From talking to a therapist, how can I put this? So like, if I had a therapist, my rookie year. Yeah, if I had a therapist my rookie year and they had my mind on the goals that I wanted to accomplish, the things that I wanted to see through, the person that I wanted to be,

I feel like all aspects in my life would have been on point. I would have focused on eating well. I would have focused on keeping my body healthy. I would have focused on watching film or I would have focused on, you know, getting extra shots, things that were important to me back then wouldn't have been as important to me. Like I would have done all these different things to make all my systems in my life geared towards what would truly bought me happiness, not the short-term happiness, not going to the

club, not hanging out with all these girls, not doing the things that like seemed like fun in the now but affected me in the later right like i would have had all those things in order to be more successful throughout my time in the NBA do you have regrets about your career no no i don't have any regrets about my career because i know the the knowledge that i was given at the time the perseverance that I had fighting through injuries making my way on a team playing 10 years in the NBA

it's hard it's hard as hell to do the majority of guys don't so like the way I was able to find my place in the NBA playing in Orlando the last four years being the guy that I was for other people right I can sit here and say that

I never had a teammate that I if I saw something that I thought I could help them better on or off the court. I said it every time. Like I was never that guy to hold my tongue because I thought, if I don't tell him, maybe he'll keep making this mistake and I'll get on the court, right?

I always helped who was in front of me, who was behind me. It didn't matter. I always, I left. Every time I was on the court, I played the hardest I possibly can. I know fans could see that. I may not perform the best, but I played my ass off.

And I also encouraged my teammates and wanted them to be the best that they could be for themselves and their family. So for that reason, I don't regret a single thing. Do you believe this statement that you can have a way bigger impact now in your life having conversations like this and you ever did on a basketball court? For sure, for sure.

I mean, I think that like there was many, many, probably many kids that grew up watching me. I know there was guys that came. I grew up watching you, bro. Like, come on. I'm like, I'm like, I'm a five. So it was like, Michael Carr, William is going to come on. Like, hell yeah. I was looking at that Philly roster from those days, bro.

That was... Oh, man. I think I had the most teammates in one year of all time. It was 40 people long. Yeah, I had the most teammates on one team throughout the year. But to answer your question, you know, I really think that helping somebody, you know, with their mental issues and, you know, potentially saving somebody's life, you never know, is worth more than anything. Yeah, that's been my experience. and, you know, we share some commonality in living public lives, right?

So we open ourselves up to all the hate. Yeah. And the hate you open yourself up to is far greater than me. I mean, it's based on, you know, you playing a sport at the, in the 0.001 percentile, right, and missing a shot, you know, that these people who are hating. on you couldn't even fathom you know even getting out of their hand um but it's hard you know it's hard i want to read so this was this was from uh this was from draft night this was from the article and i just kind of want to because it's all playing into how i'm feeling about you right now and i love the article and the the the reason i knew you were going to be a good dude is because you were

like so sure to not point the finger at anyone whenever i start to talk to someone like if they're they start blaming other people or like you know like what's up with this dude yeah yeah for sure you were really kind um so this is on draft now you said it's weird in that moment how loud all the noise is around you with everybody talking and watching the TVs but how that noise just shuts off when your name is called everything in your head goes quiet it's like you're numb almost walking across the stage putting on that hat and shaking the commissioner's hand and that image gets etched into your brain forever like you'll never leave that spot the light shining shining bright, standing on stage next to Adam Silver, just smiling.

How do you, what do you hear? How do you look back at that moment? Like, what's going through your mind? Yeah, like I mean, yeah, like I said, like I don't, it's hard to even think about what was going on. Like, I think I was so nervous. I was like, man, like, I just hope. I didn't want to be that guy that didn't, wasn't getting drafted in the camera, just was like, you know, I mean, just kept peeling to you every pick.

I mean, even having a therapist there that night would make sense. I'm serious. No, yeah, no, it is like, that's like some low-hanging fruit. Like, you look at these guys, these quarterbacks that drop or these guys that don't make it get picked in the first round. And like, to your point earlier in the talk, like, people will make fun of them or it'll become a meme or like, whatever it is. But like, you know that dude's story.

I mean, the last pick in the draft is literally called Mr. Irrelevant. You don't know that dude's story. That's crazy. I know. I know it's crazy no it is it is wild so I mean yeah I mean I was when I heard my name getting called like I said it was just like a just like a numb feeling that like I just was like I remember like being like oh man let me just make sure I get my hat on right put my hat on and shook David Stern's hand and was like yeah I just yeah it's a feeling that's so

surreal to me that I don't even it's hard to even describe right it's like you're working your whole life for one moment and like you get your name called and it's like yeah it's just like so happy you see it like that is it like that's it like that's it like excitement that's what i'm trying to put my finger on is it are you feeling like all this work for for this like i get to put on this hat and shake this dude's hand or is it like you're it's it's an incredible feeling i would yeah i would say it's an incredible feeling like it's it's a yeah it's it's i was so happy that I really didn't know how to kind of react. I was just like, you know, I finally, you know, I feel like throughout my career,

I just had to prove myself so many times, you know, this guy is better than you, this guy's better than you. You need to do this. You need to do that. Who did you come up with? This is a big game. That was when I got drafted with Victor Oladipo, Janice, Indy Davis was before me, Gilchus was before me.

who was Anthony Bennett was the number one pick, New Orleans, Noel. So, yeah, our draft was pretty good. It wasn't too bad. Like, it wasn't the strongest draft, but we ended up, you know, Trey Burke was in there. We ended up, you know, kind of playing,

a lot of us played for a while. But yeah, it was, it was a wild feeling, man. Wow. And just because I have to ask, because this is a big part of my story, what's up? It's like substance abuse in the, I mean, is it there, is it not there, is it unspoken, or I don't want to help anyone.

Yeah, I think it's, I think it's a, yeah, I mean, I feel like 95% of the league probably smokes weed. But like, I don't know, people have so many different opinions on it, right? Like, I know for me that it became an abuse thing. Like, I became to abuse it, right? Like, I would use it as a crutch. I would, you know, make it make, it would make me go numb. I wouldn't have to think about what just happened at practice or, you know my nerves you know going into the game um but i really feel like i read this book i think

it was called dopamine nation i think um so after i i kind of i read that um and i was like i was people in the book like i was like whoa like they had that same they had that same excuse of why they kept doing it or then that same feeling of why they kept doing it um and then you know once i let that go um then i could tell that like okay this is maybe for some people this is okay but this for me is not okay because like the the aftermath of me getting rid of it was like i didn't have like crazy withdrawals but like i could see the difference of my mind clarity yeah the clarity that it brought like the feelings that i had like i was no longer numb to things like and it took me a little bit too because like I would be when I was mad I was really mad and I was sad I was really sad like

when I was excited I was really excited like you know what I mean like I was like oh like everything was heightened when I stopped and I was like yeah this is this is this is how I like I got to a place where I like even killed out a little bit but like I was like man like I can feel the the difference and the effects and like there's no way you can sit here and tell me that this isn't an addiction a little bit you know um so yeah i mean yeah the weed thing man i mean i i don't judge people i can tell you that in my work it's a number one thing we're seeing right now people marijuana induced psychosis marijuana addiction it's a real thing you know and it's so accessible especially for young kids it's frying their brains out like i tell my i'm 40 i tell my buddies who are

raising kids now like keep your kids away from that as long as you can because you start smoking the shit like it's not I used to smoke actual like grass right you know like put it in a joint or a blonde or make take a bong hit like there's the shit they're smoking now it's all these oils and vapes and and and losing their minds yeah no it's yeah yeah it's crazy like there's weed out there that's like freaking 60% THC it's like bro like yeah it's not it's not no it's it's it's definitely not normal um but yeah man and i try to tell the people the same thing you know friends family that i know so what's your relationship with dopamine now like drinking working out marijuana nicotine sec like do you like i'm assuming you'll still have a cocktail

here and they're like do you do you find yourself reaching for that feeling or you feel like you have it in a place where it's yeah no i feel like i have it in a place where it's like okay like I don't need to abuse anything, right? Like, I'm at a place where... I don't know what that feels like, but... No, yeah, and it's... And it's tough for me, because I have the feeling of when I'm like, okay, like, I could easily go from, oh, I had a drink, you know, I had a weekend with my buddies drinking

to drinking every day of the week, right? Like, I have that, I have that inside of me, and I know, I know that, right? Like, oh, if I smoke with my buddies for a weekend. and like I could go back to doing it every single day. Like, and that's one of the reasons why I tried to just, you know, kind of stay away from that. But, but yeah, no, I know what you mean by like, you know, there are some people in the world who can't, like, who can't, you know, fly close like that. Yeah, no. I mean, I was one of them.

And thank God. I mean, I got sober, you know, like it was the best thing. And my mental health was tied to a lot of that. And we won't get into all that. but um so i guess my last couple questions here i want to hear what's next i want to hear you know what you want to do you know in the next phase of your career i'm just curious about when guys leave the league like what does that support look like how do you structure your days like i mean you go from like you said 82 games a year flying all over the place

eating in nice restaurants hanging out whatever it is hotels and then all the sudden you're out of the league what yeah I think and that's something that that I found is a problem right like you're no longer

you know I'm no longer the Michael Carter Williams that people have seen on the court for 10 years right like there's other guys that are playing there's like you get to a process where like okay you're not remembered as much as you are now you're not the topic of conversation so there's a process of you know there's that that humbleness that you need to kind

of figure out it and it happens for everybody at a different time right some guys are really good in college never make it to the NBA right like I've had college teammates like that and I'm like man like they're they have to transition that transition period must be hard because it you know it was hard for me a little bit when I'm like okay kind of what do I do next with your identity My whole identity was, you know, kind of playing basketball. And I think for me, I've tried to formulate a couple, you know, different angles. Like I'm doing the mental health stuff with the company under. We're, you know, pushing that along.

I'm doing some stuff on the side for mental health on my own. This is where you want to be. Like, you want to be in this space helping up. Yeah, yeah. I would always like to be in the space. I wouldn't say it would be my full-time thing, but I've always wanted to be in that space. I'm doing a lot of real estate in Orlando no in Connecticut actually yeah so we're called special teams real estate we're doing a bunch of real estate and it kind of focuses on like what you said

right like guys who maybe are in the NBA for four years or who are retired who want to get into something else like I want to create a platform where I'm like okay like this is what I've done in real estate this is the people that I've partnered with this is what I'm doing you can come in and learn this with me you can partner with me um but i want to know this is an avenue that you can go down now that you're not playing anymore um so you're just a good guy i mean that's yeah i'm trying to be trying to be you know what i feel like we don't we need more guys in the NBA like to show guys different paths like it doesn't have i don't have to find a niche and be like i'm going to soak this all in all i can share the wealth with many guys who want to you know

continue you know making money off the floor like trying to live that lifestyle that they live um so there's that and then um i'm doing a little bro i'm trying to do a little broadcasting as well staying in the game okay i'm a big mma fan too so you are you are i've been watching who's the who's the i was uh sugar sean like i was watching that dude like who's the guy right now um he just lost i know i saw that but he's he's been the guy i mean yeah there's the mental health like in that in that sport oh man like that's bro yeah i don't i don't know i don't know that's a whole different who's a boxer garcia ryan garcia yeah he he looks a little it's hard though it's sometimes it's hard to tell when guys are like does he have mental health issues

or is he doing this for like show or is he like i i don't like i don't like i don't know like i don't like to your point i don't know what the guy's story is if you're on twitter x or whatever the hell it is it finds my feed somehow but it's just crazy but i have compassion oh for sure because i've been there you know like yeah i mean yeah i mean i see guys you know i see Chandler jones who I went to college with, right? And I see him sometimes on the internet and people making, you know, judgments about him. And I'm like, you know, I don't know what's going on with him.

I'm not sitting here making judgments. Now, would you reach out to him? Or was that to be? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've reached out with him before. Even when he was on live, like I won't, even on Instagram live. Like some athletes would have been like, I'm not going on live with him. Like, that's like maybe that could be like freaking suicide to your image.

But like, I went on there and I was like, bro, how you doing? Like, what's, what's been going on? and he was like you know nice to see his familiar face like how you doing like it was a normal conversation um but i kind of just wanted to show him that like it's not all you know everyone commenting on your stuff being like bro you're out of your mind right now like what's going on like no like there's people out here that are like concerned with your health like hoping you that you're doing well and you know that you've got you got people here for you so um yeah bro i just i just try to when I see athletes do that like I do I try to reach out I try to you know especially if I

know them I'm definitely want to you know just try to help in any way possible good for you man I mean I feel like talking to you and I talk to a lot of people who we all have different stories right and I think that's I'm fascinated by the human experience I'm fascinated by your story I'm fascinated at the way you walked out of the darkness and really into the light you know and and you paint those pictures and I see it man I see you lying in that bed and I know how hard it is to ask for help um so I just want you to know that you're loved and I'm proud of you you know like that shit's real and I think you're meant to help people like that's what I'm hearing I mean do the real estate thing do the broadcasting do not do this thing full time because I'm I'm dude I just like I know I know it's

it's tough it's tough work yeah it's tough it's draining but you got me it's it's amazing what you got going on man like we need more people in the world like you helping you know people just what they're you know did they're mental they're you know trying to get healthy trying to be sober like that means the world to some people and that changes so many people's lives that like you can't that's it's hard to be right like people probably can't even voice how appreciative they are of that yeah yeah i appreciate that i mean look man And I'm sure you feel the same way. There's a certain contract I have with the world.

Like I feel like I was given a second opportunity at life. And I get like a little choked thinking about it, much like you got that introduction to that therapist that you unlocked this thing. And I just want to make it available to anyone who wants it. And I just want people to know that they can get help. help you know and the thing I'm thinking here before we rap is like I'm thinking about all these philly sports fans that I you know like that talk so much shit on the athletes and not just

philly everywhere yeah but like that's in my feed because I'm philly you know and uh they just have no idea yeah what you guys go through yeah no yeah and it's and I get it though it's hard because they don't see they only see the face value stuff so like i understand it it's it is it is hard and people sometimes do need to dig a little deeper um but yeah man i like i said before like you you're doing great stuff it's amazing how many you probably know this firsthand more than anybody like as soon as you came out with your story and you know you put it publicly there was people that you never even dreamed of have issues right yeah Same with me.

Like there would be coaches that hit me. I'd be like, oh, man, my son is kind of left college and is now home to do to, you know, anxiety and depression. And he read the story

and he's really motivated. I'm like, man, like I never would have thought or this guy reached out to me and be like, I felt like I was writing your story myself. Like,

I was like, man, like I never thought this dude was going through it. So I think it's awesome that, you know, once you do come out

and you are willing to help people. And I encourage others to do that, right? Yeah. Be a guy. that's being like, yo, like, what's going on? Like, DeMarreuson just did it, right?

Didn't he just kind of, he got real about some mental health stuff? Yeah. It's been, it's been cool. I feel it changing. I feel it changing. I have to end here. Did you like Philly? Can I get to go birds?

Are we go birds? Oh, no. I love, I honestly, so I don't just say this. I really, I love Philly. Yeah, it's a cool place, right? Yeah, I love Philly. I love the people there. As much as people say, like, oh, they're a hard city,

then nobody will love you like Philly either, though. So like, we love hard. You love hard. I get it. Yeah, but I have friends from Philly that I'll never forget. I got people that I always keep in touch with there. Philly is great. Cool, man. Yeah.

I won't say Go Burrs, but Philly is great. No, I got you, Patriots, but, you know, it's one, is it one in one, no. You got us with, who was it, Dionne Branch lit us up. Yeah, you guys got us when it counts, though. And then Philly special, Nick Foles, bro. Were you at that game? No, I wasn't. Luckily, I was not at that game.

Yeah. You got anything, Jay what? I mean, I just think about, like, you mentioned Anthony Bennett, you know, and then, like, number one pick, like, are there, what happens to these guys? Yeah, no, I think about that, too. Like, I think about Anthony Bennett. Like, you even think about Ben Simmons of what people say about him now, right? It's like, you just don't know what these people are going through.

So, like, sure, go on and go on TV, go on the Internet, say he's only done this, this, and that. getting paid this this and this um but again you don't know what he's going through like the the the when you're injured and your mind is telling you to do something that your body cannot do i don't think people understand what that does to somebody right like i like truly like if you're telling you like if you've been one way and your brain is telling you to do this and you can't your body won't let you do it that is one of the most frustrating feelings that you could ever go through in your life and it causes different effects on you right people always bring up that one clip oh why did why did ben Simmons pass the ball instead of dunking the ball well maybe because

his mind is so out of out of his not normal because of all the things that he's been through his back injury is all this that like he's not making decisions rationally on the court probably off the court as well right like people don't know that but they'll go online and be like he freaking sucks he's getting paid 48 million this year to do what nothing right but it's like you just don't you just don't know what people are going through like nobody makes any judgments about people that work and the biggest office building in new york city if they're not like you know what i mean it's just it's just hard and so i feel for those guys like i feel for the anthony bennets and and the guys that you know the gregg odens and exactly you know like there's the players

association do anything like yeah yeah they will they will they like the nbpa they they try to do their part they try to reach out to guys they try to make sure guys are good like there's a mental health um section for the nbpa nice so there is it's just it's just hard it's just hard like you know it's just hard to get guys to open up like who knows if executives in the NBA are taking stock into people talking about their mental health issues especially actively right like Well, I think we've gotten better at talking about it, and now we need some freaking action. Right. You know, and so this conversation, I would love for someone in the immediate here, someone somewhere to hear it and say, hey, this is one athlete's journey from, you know, Syracuse to rookie of the year to 10-year career that had injury and some highs and lows and depression and anxiety that ended in a really happy way because later in his veteran career, he found a therapist and a psychologist.

and it unlocked a part of his soul that he didn't know existed and now most importantly he's a good father he's a good husband you know and he's he's living a life of purpose yeah so I appreciate you dude

I know we took some of your time no no I'm good brother I appreciate you guys having me yeah one more thing yeah you know you know you grew up you were disciplined you're working out you can't play I gotta go work out and then you

then you were talking about when you got looking a year, you know, so you were achieved. Like, you were like the best, like, you're headed to take over the leap, right? Yeah. And then that summer, heading in the next season, were you, like, did the money, did the attention, did that, did you start to change the way you worked out or went after it? Or it was, like, what were you thinking and feeling that were, you know, did it even change in that? After my early year, I was hurt, so I had to get, I,

was hurt most of my rookie year actually. I had to get shoulder surgery. So my whole summer I was basically rehabbing. Most of my summers in the NBA, I had like probably like six or seven surgery. So most of the time I was rehabbing in my summer. So that summer I was rehabbing my shoulder. And I was so tired like from that rookie year that like I didn't want to be around anybody. Like I just wanted to chill to rehab like it was it was probably the most tiring year that I've ever gone through my life like I hit a rookie wall like I would take now I would take 20 15 minute naps like I would fall asleep on the the bus like I was getting sleep any any way I could because I was going I was playing 37 38 minutes a night like and I would have the ball my usage rate was really high

like I had the ball every time like I was going against the best guys in the league all the time so like my whole my whole summer was super just chill and just rehab really one thing you would say to someone who is taking the first step in the mental health department what would you tell that person I would tell them that obviously I really think that talking to a therapist was really big for me so I I think that if it's not a therapist, then a friend, a family member, and just to be really vulnerable about your feelings, like everything that you're going through, like get that out on the table. And then whoever you're speaking to, try to come up with a plan. Like, okay, like, all this stuff is out here.

Like, what, what's one step we can do into the right direction, right? And I think that leads to two steps. I think that leads to three. and then like you start to gain some rhythm so that's what I would say he said it better than I could ask for help share with someone you are worth it 100% you are loved just like this guy and evolved human Michael Carter Williams thank you for coming back you really appreciate it brother thank you for having and that's it for this episode of the Zach Clark show there it is take care of yourself thank you guys man