The Zac Clark Show - From Addiction to NFL Stardom to Walking Away from $32M: Darren Waller on What Matters Now

Episode Date: June 18, 2025

Former NFL star Darren Waller joins The Zac Clark Show to share his raw, unfiltered story of recovery. From overdosing on opiates in a grocery store parking lot just miles from the Ravens facility to becoming one of the league’s top tight ends with the Raiders and Giants, Darren opens up about the real battle—his addiction, the search for identity, and the haunting realization that no amount of money, fame, or success can fill the hole inside.He walks us through the peaks and valleys—stocking shelves at Sprouts during a 14-month suspension, making the Pro Bowl just two years later, and ultimately walking away from a $32 million contract to honor his true self and a healthier, more peaceful path. We talk about the layers beneath addiction—childhood, shame, performance, perfectionism—and the ongoing work of healing through recovery, therapy, and faith.The dream is so often built around achievement, recognition, and external validation—but Darren’s story is a powerful reminder that inner peace is worth more than any prize, paycheck, or stadium of screaming fans, and that real self-love can only come from within.Today, Darren is making music, sharing his truth through lyrics, and helping others find freedom through his non-profit, The Darren Waller Foundation. Since 2020, the foundation has helped fund recovery treatment for individuals struggling with addiction and has reached thousands through Wall Talks across the country.For information about The Darren Waller Foundation, please click here: https://darrenwaller.org/Connect with Zachttps://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclarkhttps://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release:[phone]releaserecovery.com@releaserecovery

Hi, this episode is brought to you by Reebok. I'm wearing the classics, best summer shoe. Introducing the all-new float sig too, which I am holding Reebok's latest running shoe packed with super float and foam for more bounce, more cushioning, and more stable run. Built for new runners, seasoned professionals, and everyone in between, now available on Reebok.com. That's R-E-E-B-O-K.com. All right, guys, welcome back to the Zach Clark Show. We are here with one of my favorite humans in the world, Darren. Waller. A lot of you guys know him because he played in the NFL for the Raiders and then

the Giants. I know him because we are on this journey of sobriety together. What's up, Aaron? What's up, man? I'm grateful to be here. I'm so happy to see you. Smiling. A lot of smile about. We try to smile. And you're in town to do high rocks, bro. How did you get, how did you get from the NFL to high rocks? Tell me about that, bro. The first 10 times somebody brought up high rocks to me I was like there's not a single chance that I'm going to do one but then I have these friendships with some people in Vegas that I've gotten pretty close to and there's about 15 of them that'll roll up to a high rocks and they did one in Vegas I think in February and I was like it seems like it could be a pretty good challenge it's like it's got good energy you know what I'll

sign up for one one of the guys that built my gym in my garage uh is going to the world championship for doubles okay so I've just been training with him and uh Daily regret my decision, but it's like one of those things where you finish the training for the day, and it's like, I can show up tomorrow. Right. What is high rocks? What do you have to do? Because it sounds crazy. So there's eight rounds or stages, and each round you run a kilometer, which is like 0.62 miles.

And then after you run a kilometer, it's a thousand meter ski erg, kilometer, 50 meter sled push. That's heavy. Then sled pull. 80 meters burpee broad jumps 1,000 meter row And you're alternating between running Wow Every time

And then it's farmers Two hundred meter farmers carry A hundred meter sandbag lunch With 70 pound bag on your back And then 100 wall balls I'm going to stick to marathons Dude that sounds That might be one and done

Terrible But awesome I'll die So you retired recently I want to go back So first of all August How many years? uh this august would be eight eight we're august babies i'm hoping to have 14 June when are you

june but summer you're coming up 20 27th no 18 18 years yeah some by the end of the summer just burns you out i guess yeah man i mean for me i always say like the all the august babies are special because you try and hold on through the summer i'll get i'll get sober after you know labor day or whatever that is but it's just it come from god wants it to come so I feel like in summer there's nowhere to hide. You know, everyone's outside. In the winter, you can sort of just, like, disappear. Yeah.

In the summer, everyone's out. That checks out. You know? So you grew up in Maryland. So I was born in Maryland. Okay. I grew up in Atkworth, Georgia, which is like 30 minutes north of Atlanta since I was like, right before I was five years old. And do you remember, do you remember your first drink?

Do you remember, like, the first time you reached for something? my first drink well it was drugs first it was the first was painkillers like 5 milligram oxycodons that my friends got their medicine cabinet when I was like 15

okay in sophomore in high school then my junior year started smoking weed and then I got to drinking like my senior year high school it was like a bud light sky vodka mashup like just drinking both and yeah i remember on spring break just drinking sky vodka not drinking water i don't think

an entire for an entire week but just sky vodka and loving the way that i felt right but a 15 are you like already like you know a a high level athlete are you you know are you on that trajectory and so and like you see drugs and you're like no i'm not or like what was your reaction to the idea of using drugs at that point um so i feel like i was like advanced athlete as a kid from like very early on elementary school through middle school but then everybody kind of like shot past me like growth-wise I was super small I was like 5-7 130 pounds my freshman year high school and now you're 6-6 yeah I had a growth spurt like after my sophomore year high school I before my junior year but the first two years of high school I was like riding

the bench or like if they put me in the game I was getting hurt because dudes were just like running me over and I was just too small like my body wasn't ready for prime time yet is this football or just basketball at this time um i was playing football basketball and baseball and did you i know you've had a complicated relationship with football uh and we'll get to that because i mean bro you walked away i mean we're gonna get into that and i just yeah man you left you left the you left a bag on the table to take care of yourself um but did you at an early age no was it always a job for you did you ever love the game or did you were just good I was a football junkie elementary school, middle school, high school trying to, I guess, extract validation via football is what kind of started to, like, zap that joy away.

And I can remember vividly, honestly, this memory of my senior year after our last game. And, you know, there's people on the team that are like, you know, it might be their last football game. ever play and uh but people were like man you're going to college it's gonna be so great and i remember just being like it was like one like one of the time was like you put the fake smile on you're like yeah like yeah can't wait we just kind of feel like like like more like oh i have this opportunity i can't like say no to this opportunity people would think i'm an idiot so so so a senior year high school football you're you're obviously a star you're going to georgia tech you're already thinking and I don't know how I feel about football.

Yeah. Not completely sold. Wow. And yet you were so dominant. I mean. Yeah. But I think that's the thing that's confusing about athletes is a lot of, a lot of athletes are very good, but they don't necessarily, it's a job.

Oh, there's a ton of guys in the league that hate football. Right. 100%. Right, right. Were you using drugs in game? Like, what, can you take us through like a, a, week or like a you know of how drugs and alcohol or weed you know was was a part of your life at that point in college it was even high school um high school i was kind of waiting

uh i would do like a few times a week um i kind of alternate between like there'd be like a couple days a week where i could get my hand on some oxies you kind of had to like go door to door and be like if somebody had a broken arm or like yeah it was like yo like we don't even had to make this crazy, I put some money in your mailbox, like, whatever you. But, uh, and drinking wise, kind of just like on the weekends, I'll smoke weed every day. Like me and this, this, uh, dude was like, if you pick me up to go to school, we could smoke a bum before we go to school. So I'll do that. Um, but always kind of kept it clear, like, when it came time for, like, practice, it either be like early in the morning or like after practice. So I would be like, at least

I could get through that part. But college, It was just like any moment where there was not an activity that was demanding my full attention, like practice, workout, study hall, class, like. I mean, even in class, like, if we're smoking any chance you get, like, drinking at least five days out of the week. In college while you're playing. Yeah. I mean, there would be times where I would drink a six-pack in the hotel the night before the game on Friday. And no and no.

No. Like the coaches would come in with the flashlight trying to make sure, like, you didn't have any, like, girls. your room now you could just like kind of like took little six pack under the sheets and yeah i'm good do you i mean like a lot like people drink for many reasons right and i don't get caught up on whether it's hereditary or genetic or you can manufacture it did you were you like an anxious kid were you trying to fill some hole in your soul do you remember feeling different than everyone and then when you drank maybe you felt a part of all the above every single one including like you can make case for genetic like every

generations of disease but it's like I like the way I felt when I did it so I was choosing to do it but it was also like it was filling the hole it was I like to think it's like my brain and insiders moving like a thousand RPMs at all time and it's like let me get that so I can just slow all that down or like at least like not allow me to necessarily feel it right because you know I guess I'm in like high pressure situations I need to be good football i need to um be good in these uh advanced classes that i'm in like i can't have all this thinking all this feeling going on you know that's it out of the way so i can perform and it's like i guess i kind of taught myself how to perform but i didn't necessarily teach myself how to

be like a sane human being was it confused like did you was there anything at home that you know how you grew up your family that that led you to feel this way or like uncomfortable or or just like constantly in your head about everything or no like what was your family like uh yeah i mean i had a on the surface it was like and i think my parents did an outstanding job your parents are great they're great man but they but like learning more about my family history they're both um like ACO it like adult children of alcoholics like my mom's dad was a heroin addict um and both my dad's parents were addicts and alcoholics i never even met them they just you know,

didn't make it. And you learned how it's like they, there wasn't active addiction like in my parents, but like the codependency, I guess that they had to develop to exist in that house. It's like they brought maybe into their parenting style a little bit

to where it's like, we don't want you to have the childhood that we had so bad growing up that we're going to create by looking the part, by getting good grades, by presenting well and all the stuff. And it's like,

those are all good things. Yeah. But it wasn't like any, environments for like oh this is what I'm feeling like my parents didn't model that but they didn't even but looking back like they didn't have a chance to model that it wasn't modeled to them so it's like not holding it over their heads it's kind of like having compassion as to why maybe I felt the way I did in my house but yeah I didn't feel like there was really like space to express emotions or you know like they remember times crying and it's like I grew up in the

why the fuck are you crying era you know uh so yeah it was things i'm learning now that were like hmm like that had an impact on me but um it wasn't like the active addiction wasn't in my parents right was music always a part of your life because your great your great grandfather wasn't he like a famous legendary jazz musician yeah he was that's awesome i didn't recognize the magnitude of that till college i had like a jazz history class i didn't recognize till then but they had us playing piano like they talked about your great grandfather in that class. The professor ran up to the front of the class and was like, you need to pay attention. This is your family history. And I'm just like, that's crazy. But it was,

it honestly is what inspired me to start making music. But we played piano when we were kids, me and my sister. And I was in middle school band. I loved being music and band. But then it was one of those like, I can't be in band in high school. I got to be on a football team. Like, I got to be cool. Yeah. I mean, that's what I talk to kids about, like when I go out and speak, I, I encourage them and give them, uh, Yeah, there's water over there. Try and give them permission to be curious, right? And be who they want to be, not who they want their parents to be, like their parents want them to be or their professors want them to be.

And I think for athletes, I know for me, like growing up in a house, like I was convinced that it was just I was going to play through sports. I was going to do this because that's what guys are supposed to do. Yeah, I mean, I literally feel like I'm 32 years old now. I feel like I'm back at the little kid. like who do I want to be when I grow up phase because when I was a kid I didn't allow myself to have that it's just like up we put football players on a pedestal I think I'm pretty good at football like I think I can get good enough to where you know I can do something so right it was just like that's my path when it's like was it really or was it something that I picked and latched on to

because I knew it could you know give me some love and some acceptance I guess you and I talk pretty and openly like in our conversations offline god has talked about very casually right like we just we was that always a part of your life was there always some like was the family religious growing up or when did you start to develop some conception of god or belief in um yeah i feel like i mean always in church growing up uh grandpa's baptist preacher uh Um, great grandma prayer warrior, grandma prayer warrior, mom prayer warrior, like, uh, black church could go from 9 a.m. to 2 p.m. which is not necessarily tailored for young kids. Like, I'll be in there falling asleep. Getting the back of my head just, wow, my mom, um, for falling

asleep. And so it was just like, things like that. Like, it made church become like a chore. I was like, oh, God, I got to go church in the morning. Like, go spend the night at a friend's house. and they'd be like you better be we're picking you up at that house for church in the morning and it's just like uh church god like ugh and um and then somewhere along the way you think well saying i'm going to church and like knowing some bible scriptures like can give me an image boost it can just make me look like a better person and uh so i used that for a while um but never really just kind of feeling like this like god is like waiting like bro you slip once you sin once i'm coming with a hammer like you're going to hell type of feeling but it's like and it kind of

reminded me of like you know you know my mom was real my mom was really firm like but she knew like it like that that was her way of loving i couldn't tell at the time it was just like i was just scared kid like like i'm trying to avoid my mom i don't want to get grounded or you know get the belt you know so i kind of viewed god in the same way yeah and um it's still taking till over these last few years even still now trying to work out some of that residue of just like god is waiting to punish me like because even when i got sober like i started to find a relationship with god of my understanding and it's like well god just wants to use these gifts that he put in me he doesn't i don't think he really still signs off on who i am or what i'm really doing but um it's

it's just had to evolve so much yeah unlearn so you go to georgia tack you have a good career You're wide out in college or no head-in? I'm a wide receiver, but I like to say I'm an offensive tackle that was split out all the way to the numbers because, I mean, you know, you know a ball, like a good year for like a receiver, like 1,000 yards. Like, I didn't have a thousand yards. My four years of college combined. Really? Yeah. Because Georgia Tech runs this whack offense, right?

We were running a triple option offense. Right, right. Like, it was literally like 80 to 20 percent, 80 percent run, like maybe 20 percent pass. And we had another receiver named DeAndre Smilter. We both got drafted. So it's like you've got to split those 20% passes two ways. So you get three targets in the game. It's like hitting the lottery buttons.

Like we got to make these three work. But it was enough plays to like make an impact that kind of like put me on a radar. Did you want that though? Like in college where you went to a school like Georgia Tech where you knew that maybe the offense wasn't going to tailor to you and your talents. did you were you thinking about that like were you so consciously looking for a way to get out of football well i played defense i didn't play offense so i got to college they moved me to receiver like i played safety in high school our coaches were like they had guys that they liked that receiver

and the team needed a safety and i was like i can figure it out bro like oh i've watched enough i understand football enough like all we really got to do is just like come down in the alley and like make a tackle i can do that and um so i just played safety They had like 120 tackles in my junior year, which should tell you that we weren't that good of a defense. If I have 120 tackles at free safety. But, yeah, I got the college, and they moved me to receiver because my body type. And I was like, all right. But I was thinking when I got there, I was like, I'm going to get my college paid for.

Like, I don't think I'm going to the league. I'm thinking I'm like the eighth receiver on the death chart. Oh, wow. When I got there in my freshman year, I didn't really expect much. Wow. And you're partying. oh my god yeah i remember uh i love tell i love telling this story yeah tell the story we need stories you know like your parents move you into your dorm in college and it's like all right son like

this is a new chapter like oh like you're going to do great like they walk out maybe 10 minutes later these sophomores walk in slam a bottle of ever clear on the table in the middle of like the there's like four freshmen in one dorm they're like somebody's taking a shot and I was it was just kind of like this like this is my moment like standing up like and uh I was in there and like I'm I'm with the shit it's like this is what I do like y'all not gonna be out here punking me like and like an identity kind of formed I was like oh yeah shit and like he'll drink 20 beer he'll drink 30 beers like he'll chop for shot like and snore the perk it's just like that became like my identity and it's like and the people like did people was there any concerns at that point about your substance abuse or because you were keeping your shit together on the field and outwardly like no one questioned it yeah i was like a master of like the um you know still looky and i still have great conversation have manners uh you know but nobody really pride like even guys that were close to me back there like i have no idea like i thought we were just like

having a great time and party and i was like we were but i was just like you know A little extracurricular. Behind the scenes, I had a bag of blow on my pocket and a bunch of perks. When I was going to the bathroom, it wasn't always going to have to go to the bathroom. Did you ever think you had a problem at this point or no? You're in college, you're partying. I think I was a victim of the perspective of because I'm not like under a bench underneath a highway that can't be an addict. Like I'm at Georgia Tech, which is like one of the top public institutions.

and I'm playing Division I football like I can't be an addict it just doesn't make sense kind of mindset and there's like the illusion of control because it's like I'm still going to class and like I'm still going to practice and there nothing is seeping out well outside of my failing drug tests and multiple arrests in college I got arrested once in high school and once in college and once my rookie year in league for what um Junior year high school was trespassing and damage to property. I was trying to be cool with some teammates in high school. And then we possession, sophomore year high school,

and then weed possession fell in the intent to distribute and reckless driving. I was driving home to Georgia from Maryland. I got arrested in like Roanoke, Virginia. I had to do a day in jail in Roanoke, Virginia. dude i remember the one time i i at the end of my run i was i was thrown in jail and it was there was almost a relief like they took my phone they took everything and i was i was feeling it was almost it was almost thank god right no one can bother me but i don't know man it's it's

it's crazy so you you get drafted by the ravens yeah and you're in rehab pretty pretty sure like you end up overdosing what what what led to that i mean you have a daily habit you're trying to make the team And is this during training camp or? So this is, I get drafted in 2015. I don't get suspended and, you know, OD and gets over until what would have been the start, like, preseason of my third year. So like my first year, I'm there in Baltimore and I'm like, I find out there's a employee that used to do something on the grounds of the Ravens facility that had. what i was looking for and uh and he would like put him in your car or like you know just keep you stocked or he had people that you could go to if he wasn't available and this is in the days

when we're talking like the the the the the the roxy 30s and the oxy cotton yeah big 30s yeah big 30s yep i mean you probably were taking down 10 i mean like the big 30s yeah loved it um but so i play my rookie year and i get hurt like halfway through and when you're like on injury reserve it's like you show up and you like do workout in rehab but your day is over at noon and then you're just by yourself unless you have like friends like no people would like at that time I'm just like just in my room by myself and just thinking like what am I going to do and I'm just fuck it you're just going to go get active yeah and and so then I fail a bunch of tests because I'm like still using and I'm like oh what's some like detox drinks that help me beat a test

tomorrow and like I would pass like a couple but the Wizzinator like yeah but for the most part I'm failing all these tests like I'm getting the FedEx envelopes that's like you tested positive for oxycodone and alcohol and like I'm getting these FedEx envelopes I'm trying to like hide the FedEx envelopes because they'll be in my locker I don't really know if people are like picking up on the fact that these are all like failed drug tests people are just like damn you get a lot of mail from FedEx and I'm like yeah I don't know I don't know what it could be but um and I guess suspended the first four games with my second year and then play through that year I tear my labor with my shoulder like a month to go in that season I play the rest of the season but then I'm like

I can't keep doing this and I was just like I put my sabotage plan into effect and I was like I'm just going to fail every drug test from here and they're going to kick me out I finally got to that point I'm like I'm putting my plan into action like I'm you get out of phone ball forcing my hand out right I'm out and I did and it's weird because it's like as I'm failing these tests I rehab my shoulder and I go out to the spring in Baltimore and like I'm fucking killing like they're like oh this dude's about to start like he's finally like let's go and then I'm like right before the last day like the mini camp off OTAs in June I tell the coach I'm like yeah coach I'm not going to be here they probably about to get me up out of here and then a couple days later I got

suspended for banned for at least a year was the words that they used. For drugs? It ended up being 14 months because the first two months of my suspension I was still using, which culminated in

overdosing. So you're using... Does the league... Is anyone on the team? Like, is there ever someone that sits you down and says, hey man, like you're failing all these drug tests? Do you want some treatment? Do you want some help? Do you want to talk about this? Or is it just

a business? They were, they tried to help. People said things. People said stuff to me. I remember, I'll never forget, Ozzie Newsom was the general manager. He walked by me to cafeteria. He's like, still doing that dope, huh? And I was just like, I don't know what I can say. There was, uh, yes, sir. You want to bump? John. Ozzy. I think I am. Yeah, Coach Harbaugh would have pulled me in and have private conversations like man like what do we got to do like like you got so much going here like like trying to help and then like people on on staff the ravens like i'm i'm in the drug

program i have a drug program like a case advisor or you know and uh he's talking to me in the league is talking like come on and like what are we like what can we do like they're all trying to help me and i'm just like not receiving help yeah this is like what this is i love this example for people listening because people will look at me or jay or you and and their argument from the family or whoever is they have so much to live for they were dealt this great hand this guys you know complain in the NFL why why doesn't you just stop right and some of the literature that that i've used surely he would stop for her right right yeah it's like no human power like no human power is going to get me like this alcoholic sober because i i i did

the thing where it was like, you know, if I just get sober, the girl will like me better and the girl likes me better than my family will accept me and my family accepts me that maybe I'll work harder and go get the job. And if I get the job, then I'll make money and then I'll stop drinking and doing drugs. That shit doesn't work. Right. But you wanted to get, you, you were ready to throw it away, but throw it away to do what? So that you just could sit alone and do drugs by yourself? Right. Because it's like this. yeah you weren't thinking i'm gonna i need to get help you're like i just want to get the fuck out of this situation yeah go like no no positive plan of like where i'm going next like just get me out of here

nothing yeah and when the code you're sitting with you're sitting with harbaugh in the room and you're having this conversation it's hard to heart are you are you just like sitting there like a kid like talking to the principal you're like yeah i hear you like are you saying anything like you're just sitting there just like yeah like kid going to the principal just like literally Like just sitting there like. And what about other, is there a culture of this? Are there like a couple guys, you know, on the team that like, you know, are using drugs or, or is it just like you're just like a lone wolf here?

Well, I think everybody, I don't want to say everybody, but I think it was common knowledge. Like I was in the drug program. Like people, I was getting tested either two or three times a week. Wow. Like people saw me going to piss in a cup regularly. Way more than everybody else was. so I kind of knew like I can't be around anybody on the team like I need to be using it there's one dude on the team that I would use with and and it's ironic it's like he fucking

he's no longer with us but he overdosed yeah and what was his name uh Lorenzo Lorenzo Talley Faro he's like only dude I'll kick it with we'll kick it together all the time and we were talking about like stopping talking about like getting our lives together and stuff like that but he was the only dude on the team I would hang out with so it's like guys on the team they didn't really have anything to go off of I was a master like you know it's kind of like being in the shadows and like yeah not being loud with what I was doing and so you overdose in August well you get sober in August of 2017 but what the overdose what happens there yeah buy a batch it's lace with fentanyl

yeah I'm in the giant grocery store parking lot like two lights up from my apartment in Owings Mills, Maryland, which is like right around the corner from the Ravens practice facility. And it's just like lights out. Like in the afternoon. And then I wake up, it's like nighttime. You were snored, you thought you were snoring perks? Were you worn?

Were you aware of fentanyl at that point? The dudes in the streets were kind enough to let us know that people were pressing pills. Like, y'all should be careful. And it's like, you know, we're like two pro athletes down in the hood. like mine perks like yeah yeah whatever bro like and uh yeah and is that the same bastard takes lorenzo out is that i don't know okay see i don't i don't know i got a call from um lorenzo had a chef um that would be over there with us a lot and um and it had been once i got sober like i hadn't talked to lorenzo for like a few years i know he'd kind of been in and out

and just like still struggling and i get a call from the chef like this is 20 20 so like this is like my career is like on the map yeah yeah and i'm on my way to the hotel a night before a game and he's like i'm calling you um i just want to let you know that um you know lorenzo is no longer with us he's like i think you know what probably contributed uh to him no longer being with us so it's like i don't know the deal but the fact that he said that in that way i was like and that and that's what that's the piece of people that i don't understand right like why am i the guy sitting here why am I alive why are you sitting here why are you alive it was so intense after that saved so what happened after that um story's amazing your your story like this part of the

story i don't think people know enough about like where you yeah yeah um so i get out of that and uh the circumstances surrounding the overdose was like i was just going to get high one more night and then I'm moving out of my apartment in Baltimore because I got suspended by the team. I'm going back home and moved my parents. I was just trying to get high one time. And I was probably going to go home and keep getting high. But that situation

was enough to scare me to be like, uh, fuck. And then once we get home to Georgia, I get a call from the Ravens team doctors and they're like, brother, your toxicology results are out of pocket. Like, you need to go see an addiction specialist. You're in Atlanta. There's this place.

Talbot Yeah Go there and meet this doctor like now And so I go there and they'd give me all this like Have me answer all these questions Yes, yes, yes, yes Yeah, and so I'm like being honest now because there are times before Like when I first came into the league

They had me go come to New York and do all this testing to see if I was going to be the drug program And I lied on all of it and they were like oh he's this guy's fine But But then the specialist was like you need to go go to rehab immediately, like substance abuse and mental health, like as soon as we can. Like when are you able to? And yeah, I just went. It was like the day after my 25th birthday, I was off to, did four days of detox at McLean Hospital in Boston and then went to McLean boarding cottage, which was in Camden, Maine for 30 days. And then.

Place is nice. Yeah, hell of nice. Then, uh, then, then, it was a great amazing experience amazing experience and then it was enough for me to come home and like you know feel good about having an aftercare plan because I went back to talbot and they had aftercare plan for me and I was going there for group therapy once a week and you know I had in a meeting circled that were near uh this is Atlanta Georgia and uh and then it was like well fuck I've done good with having structure if I don't have structure like this could go off the rails and then I um this dude my dad played basketball with uh was a uh assistant store manager at sprouts right there in uh in smyrna is the name of the town in georgia grocery store

yeah yeah and uh and so i was just a like grocery clerk there was making like 11 and 62 cents an hour had you made any money in the league to that point i mean like the rookie minimum whatever i mean like some money but i was made i was making money but um man this could go on for days but like the league is uh before you even start getting suspended games you get fined games so like your first drug test you get put in the drug program that you failed your second one you get fined one game but you still play your third test you get fined two games but you still play your fourth test you get fined four games but you still play the fifth one is when you get suspended like and don't play and then you're getting fined those games so it's like there's so

many fines that built up over time that I wasn't really made I was probably making money like practice squad maybe right right um and so yeah I'm at sprouts I think I got like 20 grand left wow and you work at sprouts for how long seven months you're there for seven months yep October till um the end of April so probably like six almost seven months living with your parents yeah and how's your mental health at this point um not the grace but like starting to like shift to a little bit more positive like um like i feel like it's like one of the first times where i feel like i'm starting to like build like some self-esteem i guess because i'm like going to work at sprouts like um i'm starting to

get like more like i'm really starting to like start writing and doing like step work and like pen and paper and like i'm starting to get like convicted on like how much i like lie and like i remember one time where it was like I remember I was like taking walnuts and like taking snacks from sprouts and I'm like I'm going to take a bottle off the shelf like I work here like I can drink a bottle of water and then there's one day where it was just like an intuition was just like you're stealing no yeah and I was just like fuck I put the water bottle back it's like little things like that that were happening so I wouldn't say it was the my mental health was like the greatest but like I was definitely putting myself more in situations and had a plan

where it could start to improve. Kudos to your parents, too, for letting you have that experience. I mean, I feel like in our work at release, we work with a lot of young guys. A lot of these young guys go to really good colleges. They end up, you know, whatever happens, they get addicted to some substance. Their mental health goes down the shitter. They end up in our care, and we tell the parents, they need to get a job at a Sprout, so they need to start pouring coffee.

They need some level of humility, and they're not okay with that. They're not okay with that. And that makes the patient or the client not okay with it because they're convinced that if they just get the job, you know, paying them the money and they have something to hold on to that they'll stay sober. And the lessons you learned in that first seven months kind of stocking shelves or doing whatever the hell you were doing probably, you know, contributed to you staying sober long term. Yeah. and just like even if you're looking at life from like a success standpoint I feel like learning like having some humility there like because when you get success people like will go off the rails and just be like just go wild where it was just like I mean we can

act like I wasn't you know damn near left for dead in the parking lot or working at a grocery store when I get some money in the NFL but that wasn't that long ago bro like you know it could go back to that so we need to just like appreciate this and it was like yeah I think lessons like that prepared me to just like I just nobody's like at Sprouts like this guy's going to the next level this guy is like this guy is like he's going to old foods man next stop no one cares no one cares getting to the big city this guy's got talent was there anything that you hold up just real quick to close the sprout story out just so everyone knows when you got your first deal your second deal you signed that contract and a

Sprouts t-shirt right weren't you like didn't you it was a yeah it wasn't even like really all that strategic to be honest like I went into my closet that morning and the Sprouse t-shirt was right on top of the stack of my laundry and I was just like I don't know why but I think I'm just going to wear this today well how did you get back to the NFL then um so around the time of like the end of like the six seven months of working at Sprouts uh retraining I started to get back into it and um and was start to appreciate the training because I didn't even really want to go back and play because, you know, my sabotaged mission,

like I wanted to be done. Like, I was kind of like just, like, building my life. I didn't think I would ever, anybody would ever touch me. But I got, I knew I'd get reinstated because I was passing all my drug tests and doing everything that they asked to me. So I was like I might as well train if I'm going to go back.

And I feel like that was around that time when I started to first year, you know, kind of got pushed me in that direction feeling like, man, like maybe there, maybe I should go back. like maybe there's like I think there's like a bigger reason for me to go back probably like intuition wise and looking back it's like of course there was but is that is that the ability to share your story like you are now and prove like like showing people that sobriety is possible

or is it just yeah yeah I mean like to get the fuck away from sprouts yeah but um but yeah so I get back into training and I got time to build up until I get there and I'm like I feel myself like getting better and better and better as the weeks go on as I'm devoting more to my craft and it's the first time I'm working on my craft where I'm clean and don't really have a lot of distractions and I'm like just really just present to the grind that's taking place because usually I'm so focused on the results or what I can get out of it just like there probably may never be any results so let's just like put all our energy into it. this. And I went back. I was ready. I went to the, got back to the Ravens. I was still,

like, technically on the team. And got reinstated, came back, but they had drafted, like, Mark Andrews and Hayden Hurst in the draft. So it's like they were financially invested in them, and they put me on the practice squad. I guess they kind of knew nobody would want to touch me. And, but I'm on the practice squad for like 11 weeks of the season. Our defense is the number one defense in the league in like every statistical category and I'm like giving them fits every day of practice and I'm just like tight ends are getting hurt in the league no calls to my agent I'm just like well I'm doing what I'm doing I'm controlling what I can control and I don't know what's going to come from this but then we played the Raiders the weekend of Thanksgiving and

they always had the practice squad guys do extra running and extra workout before the game and And the Raiders, coaches were watching me run routes before the game, and the Raiders were like horrible, horrible in 2018. And they signed me on their flight back because the, I guess, the offensive coordinator and Gruden were like, who was that guy over there running? Gruden was the coach. And the tight-in coach was Frank, who was in my wedding. Okay, yeah, yeah.

He was like, that's Darren Waller. We tried to trade for him when I was in Chicago, but the Ravens wouldn't give him up. And I told you guys about him, like, once, like, as far as, like, practice squad candidates that I was a fan of his, of his game and wanted to work with him. And then they signed me on a flight back. So the next morning, I think I got the side mirror knocked off my Jeep. I was in, like, a collision shop. My agent's, like, drop whatever you're doing, bro. Like, you're, Oakland is signing you to the active roster.

Like, you got to get on a flight immediately. Wow. And then I was like, and I went to Oakland. and they had Jared Cook, he made the Pro Bowl that year at Tide-in. So I was just like, I'm just soaking up game. You know, I'm on a practice squad, playing against the defense when I'm there. And I got a few plays on offense and, like, made some things happen in the game. And then after that season, they were like, you're starting next year.

And I was like, okay. And then, like, 2019 was like my first year starting. And this whole time, I mean, because the thing that's coming up for me, and the thing I really care about is you're back. So you're Georgia to Baltimore to Oakland. and how are you navigating your sobriety through that? I mean, how are you staying connected to the tools and the community and all that stuff?

I'm dipping in and out of meetings. Like, I would go to meetings in Maryland, and I was really still in touch with my sponsor back home in Georgia. By the time I got to Oakland, I was starting to go to meetings, but then, like, people started to, like, pick up, like, and I got paranoid.

I was like, oh, fuck, I can't go to meetings. Like, people, I don't know who I am. And so it's like, It created this couple year period of my life where I'm doing like the things that I need to do to not blow my life up, but I'm not constantly submitted to a sponsor or consultation in my recovery or, you know, still like this fear of picking up the phone, like and calling people, like, still hadn't really figured that out. It's just like if I'm really in a jam. I had a couple meetings, Zoom meetings built into my schedule that I was on, but I don't think I was really, like, maximizing my recovery.

So I can look back now and be like, maybe, like, I didn't need drugs and alcohol for the, you know, because it wasn't like all the times were easy or I was always feeling great. I think the success became a drug almost, or like the validation became a drug almost in relationships with women was up through there now because, like, I'm not just the local joker working at sprouts anymore or like the guy that's just like struggling to keep it afloat so it's like I'm in my mind I'm taking advantage of this and like this is what men do in successful positions but it's um I can look back on that and like I was soothing myself I was changing the way I felt with those relationships back then so it's like it was just different drugs I think and I was you know

kind of sponsoring myself for a while and you know she ends up biting you after a while yeah I remember, Jay, when I came off the Bacrette, I called you, and it was COVID, and I was going to some meetings, and I started to be recognized in some of the Zoom meetings, and I called Jay up, and I was like, you know, I, I think I got to find something else here, you know, like, I think I'm too, I'm too cool for this AA thing now, and he's like, who the fuck are you? He's like, you are not a special snowflake. He's like, if people want to, you know, say something to you, then, like, you have tools to do, you know, so it's, I feel. feel for people in the public eye and I feel for people that are trying to get sober because a lot of these rooms and communities are meant to be anonymous, but I feel like for me, like I've lost my anonymity. I lost that. You know, like, there's no, and I'm okay with it, right? Like, I'm okay with it, so long as I keep doing what I got to do. Right. It can be scary. So, like, but, like, what was

your understanding of, of recovery? Like, what, what did you think, did you, was, what were you learning stuff about yourself like you were away from the drugs and the alcohol and the weed or whatever you know like what did you what did you think you needed to do you know like why did you understand why you were using or what were you learning about yourself yeah so it's almost like um I look back on that time and it's like the success the success and all that stuff kind of happened really fast like going from working at sprouts to like signing a deal that that the time made me the highest paid player at my position in the history of the league was like 18 months and so it's like it's unbelievable boom my life is great but it's like I think I had only scratched

the surface on why it was that I was using because I feel like that's a lot of work that I'm doing now it's like it's taking me back to my childhood it's taking me on a deeper dive to you know character defects like how much I've just hurt brass myself with like perfectionism and things like that like those weren't things I was even really considering at the time I was just like I got my life together and my life is already this good like man I just got to like maintain like I just got to like stay sober and like go to some meetings and like you know try to be of service in my own unique way and but yeah I don't think my program really had much depth of really really diving down and get into the roots

I don't think it was until, like, you know, post-retirement and looking at my life and kind of looking at, you know, and like post-divorce and it's just like, what is my life? Like, I'm yet again at the position of like it looks great on the outside, but inside is just like a whole different. It's not what it seems. Like there's more work that needs to be done. And I look back and it's like that's the work that I would have benefited from doing that whole time. but, you know, success and validation and shit like that, I feel like took the forefront, and I just poured it all into making football work. So I want to get into that because we don't have you forever here.

And, you know, the long short of it is, you know, Darren's being humble. He goes on to be, you know, one of the best tight ends in the league for several years. Pro bowler. Pro bowler, breaking records, you know, kind of puts the Raiders back on the map to a certain degree. like there's a swag your teammate Max gets sober at some point right does he come in the league sober

or he gets sober when he's on when he's on he got sober after his first year because I remember there's a close friend of mine that helped him get to rehab he's kind of like an interventionist I guess for the league yeah yeah Max Rosby

yeah Max was he was not sober his first year but after that he got right and that's when his career I mean, like that's what I think about, right? And that's how I first learned of you and him because it was two guys on this team who were sober, who were outwardly sober, talking about their journeys and performing, you know, at the highest level. And there's a lot of artists or creatives or musicians or athletes that will get sober and say, I can't do my craft without the drugs.

I can't do my craft without the alcohol. And here's two guys that are living examples of not only doing their craft, but doing it. at the highest level in one of the most, you know, physical, uh, demanding environments in the world. So, you know, that's, that's how you got put on my radar. And, uh, you know, we first linked, I think like early 2021. And I've watched the work that you continue to do. It's been, you know, it's been inspiring. When I first met you, I was just blown away that you never know, right? Like, you hear someone sober and you're like, are they doing the work? Are they not are they just holding on for dear life and you were you were like dude let's go to a meeting

like let's talk about this let's and and it just became so natural um and i had a new i had a new fellow you know i had a new fellow and i was so i was so grateful for that um you end up leaving Vegas uh you made a home there and then signing with the giants you came over here to new york I was excited for that. Played a year there and then decided after that year. I mean, take me through because we've talked about it a little bit. Money is, you know, what it is. And you're sitting there after your first year in New York with a decision.

Two years in New York or one? Did you play? I played one. Yeah, one year. And there's money left on the table and you decide you're going to walk away. Can you, I don't know if I could have done it. take me through that decision but like how much money um the next three years would have been uh like 32 million so 32 million dollars yeah yeah um well it's a one is a very privileged decision to make

knowing that um just through like talking with my financial advisor he's like i just need you to get to this number and i got to that number and to be like you don't have to like really worry about anything unless you start spinning crazy which you you don't right now unless you turn to a huge Looking at your sweatshirt, you're looking at your sweatshirt that was probably gifted to you, or you just picked that out of the guy. I got it. So having that knowledge is like, okay, I can look at this from a different perspective because I have a disease of more. So if it's like if I'm just here for like more money or like more plays or like more adrenaline spikes, that's not really going to help me to be the purpose. It's only going to keep me more in the isolative.

behaviors that I'm already in because like when I'm in this football survival mode like bro I'm not going to me I'm not really going to meetings I'm not calling nobody I'm not I'm not I expected to hear from you more that first year in New York and it was almost like less because you were trying to yeah do the thing yeah and just trying to hold on and survive it's like man the quality of life that I'm having just to like make this money is not good I don't like the way that I feel I don't like the things that I do I don't like some of these choices that I make that aren't necessarily, like, blowing my life up or, like, putting my life on the brink like they were before, but they're harming other people. They're harming myself. And so I just look at that situation. I'm like, and I'm doing this just to feel the adrenaline spike of making a few plays. Like, I don't even really want to do this whole process. Like football is a grind, bro. Like, so many things that go into it. I don't want to do most of these things. I don't want to, I want the high that comes from playing. And it's like I can see my disease in that. And it's like if it's not like a level of commitment or love or appreciation for this or just me saying, hey, this is what I want to be spending my time doing, I don't need to be doing this.

Like there's a there's a journey for me to be had and there's a lot of, there's a lot of healing that needs to be done. There's a lot of change that needs to be made to just the foundation of which I'm living. I feel like if I'm continuing to play football, I'm just delaying that work that God is trying to do. It's almost like the same way, you know, I feel like he was speaking intuitive. through me to like, you know, there's going to be a purpose for you in football when I was at Sprout and like in rehab. It's like that same voice is like, I'm done here, bro. Like, you did. We did what we needed to do here. I got something else. Like there's a different path. Like one where you don't have to, you know, have other, continue to just cycle out these addictive

behaviors to other things that nobody else sees and, and just continue trying to survive. Like, no, there's a better. There's a better. life for you can you so that was two years a year and a half ago right or last June was when I retired last June when did I know I was going to retire we were playing the Buffalo Bills bro that's your team week there's pump five I don't know week five one of those early in the season first third of the season we're playing in Buffalo and it's a pretty like it's a close game like I thought we were going to get wax But it was like down to the wire

But early in the game We're running this like Trap counter run play And it's working like Saquan's eating And uh but I'm like the full out Sequin Child of Sequin

I'm like a fullback bro Like I'm leaning through the hole Like a full back bro I got to block the linebacker He's trying to fill the hole Like I'm like what the fuck am I doing here bro Like this isn't even

This is like I come come back and sit back on the bench and they're like great man like we didn't know you could block like that i'm just sitting down the bench looking at the moon i'm like bro i'm gonna finish the season i'm gonna give it all that i got but there's no way i'm playing again after this season like i'm just gonna make the best of what's left which i did the games that i was um healthy and played i was productive and present and uh played with effort and that's why it's like after that season like i i could uh and i had to write a check to walk away i had to write back

750 000 and bonus money to the giants to walk away so that's how that's how it's like most people might be like i got i got to i got to write do that on top of already what i'm not making that's i don't know if any regrets no not right can you talk about what's this last year's looked like the journey in terms of just finding joy i mean i met up with you when i was out in Vegas for a conference and i walked into the little taco shop and i seen you for the first time like happy you know like you were lit up and i felt like i was you know meeting up with a guy who i knew right um but didn't didn't recognize and i know you've been working hard Yeah, I think making a decision like that was like something emphatic to like maybe like set a tone for the rest of my life of like, you know, I want to actively choose the things that I'm putting my time in and spending my time doing.

Like I've done the things that I've had to do and grind it hard and like push through a lot of my life. But it's like I've afforded myself the opportunity to enjoy my life now and to. be a whole person and to you know be like be feel like free and not feel like I have to feel like trapped in in things so it's like yeah it's yeah getting divorce will teach you that it'll it'll have you you know approach in life different like damn what is it what is that I need to do that I keep finding myself in these same relationship patterns you know a lack of wholeness of myself a lack of worthiness that is in me that I keep creating and wanting to sabotage there.

Is it because you're making decisions based on what you think other people want? Bingo. What other people would expect me to be, what would be, yeah, people pleasing. This big defect of character for me. And it's like, I need to actively push back against that. And otherwise, I'll live a life that, you know, could read. read great at a eulogy or when my name goes across the fucking ESPN ticker on the bottom when I die but it's like I don't know if I will have died feeling fulfilled so well I mean like

when you're talking like it's especially being a you know former professional athlete like it's such a human moment like when you described playing the bills you're sitting in a stadium of 80,000 people right and you're just like looking up at the moon being like like I'm done, you know, and like we watch these games. I'm a big fan and it's just like all about like kill, win, you know, like that's my team. Like these people aren't, these players aren't people, you know, but how have you in these situations where you felt trapped, like, you know, obviously we don't have to get into your marriage or whatever, but, you know, how have you used recovery or this knowledge

about yourself to get out, you know, to manage or navigate those situations and then move forward in your life? So it's pointed me to like different fellowships of recovery and 12 steps, ones that I feel like fit my story and it's led me to like inner child work and EMDR and like so many different lanes that are helping me to not feel like I need to live a life where I feel trapped in that because that's like a younger version of me. felt like the decision of like when I'm a kid like oh I got to go to football route like like that energy has been trapped in my body for so long and so it's like taking a deep dive

and like I don't know almost like reparenting in a way to where it's like I don't yeah because I'm convinced up to the point that I have to do the life that I have to do where it's like no like you actually have a chance to explore like you're not chained in this backyard like a dog like you're free to run and roam and to explore and uh you know i need relationships in recovery and i need a faith in in god like that to be able to go out there and explore um even when i feel like you know uncomfortable in this new space of freedom and you know just a blank canvas like a lot of times that's kind of scary and kind of like gives me anxiety as well even though it's like what I know that I truly want so um just trying to keep people close man and not just

walk through this time by myself yeah the inner child stuff the reparenting stuff i mean that the attachment i mean it's i always like getting sober was it's the most important thing about me i would probably say for you it's up there in terms of what's important the longer I stay sober, the more I realize how much work I really, you know, need to do. And what drove, you know, my heroin addiction, what drove my alcoholism, what drove my reckless behaviors. And a lot of times it comes back to like, I'm just a kid trying to be seen. Like, I just, I'm just got my, you know, I'm butt naked in the middle of a desert with, like, flares trying for, like, people, like, I just want to be seen.

I just want to be valid. Like you said, validated. And that work can be really scary, man. So kudos to you for doing that. And I always think when I start to do this work, it's like, but I'm not, I'm not saying my parents are bad parents. I'm not saying my home was fucked up. Like I want to try, but like it can just be what it is, you know, like my experience, because maybe I didn't get a hug one day when I came home from school when I wanted to get a hug. That can be my trauma.

Like that's enough. That can be okay. Right. You know? Totally. Yeah. I don't think all of it needs to be experienced. I mean, I read something where you said that you don't, you didn't feel like you were

lovable, right? And like, here's a do that's like winning, succeeding, you know, on paper, you know, whether it's money, women, success, football, has it all. And so I just think it's important for people to also hear that, like, you know, getting these things is never going to be the answer. I mean, like, you, you, you can say that more than anyone. That Jim Carrey, that Jim Carrey, that's what I was thinking of, yeah. A thousand, a thousand, million percent, a million percent of the truth.

What is it? I wish, he said, I wish everyone could get everything they've ever wanted in life to realize that it's never enough. Oh. That is like bull's eye. Oh. Bulls eye. If you don't take nothing else away, they ain't going to do it.

I mean, dude, and to a certain degree, I experienced it, right? Like, you come off a show like I was on and I get engaged and, you know, good morning America and you're doing all this shit. You're running around. People recognize you on the street. And then slowly, it just goes. goes away and you realize that like yeah some people want to connect with me around the work I do in recovery and that's cool and I appreciate those conversations other people just

want a photo to throw in their their group chat right and how is that supposed to make me feel like a piece of meat straight out like a piece of meat it's not that's not there's nothing sexy there's nothing cool about that people you know I'll be walking around with friends and something someone will notice me or something they're like oh that's so cool I was no it's not right I just want to walk through this world and be free. I'll never forget, we were at the Rufus concert, and we were having the discussion, you were like,

bro, it's like, for you, it's like the 20-year-old, like, frat dudes that run up on you want to pick, and for you, it's like the, like, the, like, girls that are running up to you for the pick. It was just funny sharing that moment together. Yeah, yeah, you get the fantasy, bro, that's like, do you, why did you play last week? You know, we're at a concert, trying to hang out,

watch some Rufus, and, you know, I get, you know, the moms or the girls that watch the bastard, like, it's just like this weird, This weird, us two walking around in the world. It's wild, man. It's wild. Fuck. But I love you, dude.

I mean, I'm so proud of you. I'm so inspired by you. Truly, I think, you know, we could probably talk about this for days. I do want to give you a second just to talk about some of the music you're making. I want to shout out the Darren Waller Foundation, which is a foundation out in Vegas, right? You're raising money to send people to treatment and get help. So you're giving back. You're doing your service work.

and talk to us about the music because it's getting better. I mean, I see people like it's... Yeah, yeah, it's crazy to... Yeah, the music, I don't know if people will realize I started making music the same week I got drafted to Baltimore because there was dudes on my college team.

They would put a beat on and dudes with freestyle and my brain moves too fast so I can get you like two lines that are like thought out and then I just can't keep going. But I was like, I feel like if I started writing, like I might be all right. And I started, I was bored in Baltimore

and I was like, Fuck it. I went and downloaded a garage band on my MacBook and I started rapping in the iPod earbud microphone and started from there and just two years later I put put out like my first project and then like I put one out 2019, 2021, 2023 and I look back now and I'm like I got some like some problem with like some lyrical ability like some like some songwriting ability but it's like the tone and just like the emotion emotional expression behind it like making you feel it in my voice wasn't necessarily there but God put people in my path that have told me

that and have coached me up on that and have given me that information to where I can apply it and I feel like I met this engineer who's like really like really solid and so it's like there's pieces there that have helped me to be able to elevate my sound so I'm just excited to continue to release stuff uh what's the latest album um i just been dropping singles a lot lately i had a i had a i had a song top play i guess that people like yeah top play kind of like i didn't know that people were tapped in like that like random people it was like old old white people wrote up to me like great i heard that i saw your rap video on instagram and i was like what because nobody really paid attention to my music it's like people that were like really really

fans of me or like really watching what i was doing they'd be like i love the music that you put out and it would mean a lot because I didn't hear it that much and then it's like I'm hearing it from these random people but yeah no I'm excited I got a lot of you know different kinds of records like I'm put like the last song I put out was more of like an R&B like love emotional type records and then I have a song coming out June 18th it's called choose myself it's like a song where I'm like talking about how like there's all these different definitions of self care like but what does self care really look like how do I choose myself type of song do you have fear put in this stuff out like into the world like what people will say or think oh i already know people

cooking me over music i already know like i could there there's one time i have people that run my social media and there was a one time that i think i was logged in i was there's like a little bit of time where i was like putting my own stuff on tic talk for a minute before i gave them the login i went on ticot and the first notification that showed up said uh you gave up doing football for this shit and i'm like bro people on the internet are foul so like yeah i don't already know that's the case but it's like this is like another opportunity for me to say like this is the life that I'm choosing I want to live like this is an opportunity for me to receive that but also not let it dictate what I feel like I need to be doing or what lane I feel like I need to

be trapped in so it's like yeah keep my light phone on me and uh and I'm doing what I want to do and I there's something for me there's a journey for me in this and uh we're just going to see what What guy has the store, I guess. That's awesome. Congrats. Top play, download it. Apple, Spotify, get the clicks going. Darren Waller Foundation, bro.

I'm so proud of you. I'm so happy for you. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. By the time this airs, you'll have a time. Somebody's ass is getting kicked. Yeah. Mine are high rocks.

And I just got to say, like, before we cut, cut, like this, the recovery lessons in this, the sober job stuff, you know, the, the, there's just a lot here for people listening that are struggling and there's a lot of reasons to look at Darren's story and be inspired to start living a different way because the lies that we tell ourselves when we're active have all been busted by you so right let us do that for you and I just feel like it's important to for people one thing I've learned vigilance when you have time in recovery because like that vigilance can kind of like slip away yeah it did for me it's like I'm in year six and and seven, probably going through the biggest change, biggest transition in my life. And if I don't have the, like, the vigilance and, like, the urgency in my recovery to match the shifts and changes in my life, it's going to be difficult. So it's like, it's easy to rest on our laurels, but we've got to stay locked in. Easier said than done. Yep.

All right, that's it for this episode. Top play. Download it. Top play. Later. Thank you.