The Zac Clark Show - From Crack Addiction at 20 to Medical School & Ultramarathons | David Millar

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

At 20, David Millar's life revolved around getting high. His cocaine use had progressed to crack, drug-induced psychosis and a point where he says he was completely okay with dying. Seven years later, David is sober, in medical school and running ultramarathons. In this episode, David tells Zac how addiction took him out of college, why the treatment he experienced in early recovery ultimately helped inspire his path into medicine, and how getting sober allowed him to discover an academic ability he never believed he had. He also opens up about growing up with an alcoholic father, getting sober at 20, rebuilding his life through structured sober living, and later watching the roles reverse when his father arrived at the ER where David was working in severe alcohol withdrawal. David and Zac also talk about running, discipline, spirituality, the complicated relationship between addiction and mental health, and David's mission to show young people that sobriety isn't the end of your life – it can be the beginning of one you never imagined. Follow David Millar Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/david.millar.mindset/ Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Head back to the streets and FX is the drop, a snowfall saga. Watch Wanda Bell and Leon Simmons fight to reinvent themselves in 90s Los Angeles, where the fallout from the crack epidemic fuels the rides of West Coast rap. Ambition, loyalty, and survival collide, as everyone risks everything to build something lasting at FX's the drop, a snowfall saga. Streaming September 9th on Hulu on Disney Plus, click or tap the banner to sign up now. I'm a huge fan of pain. I think that it's such a good teacher.

Putting myself in places of pain today to remind myself where I came from to get that year or that two year sober is so important for me to remember. Today's guest, David Millar. He's a med student. He's an ultramarathoner. He's a recovery advocate. He's just a good dude with a really good story about recovery, the way that he got sober,

and the way that he thinks other people can and will stay. sober. I was working in the ER and my dad actually came in in alcohol withdrawal. Death is a real option for your father. Here you are trying to like create this path forward past it. So 27 years old, seven years sober in med school. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. And all just transpired from me getting sober. Like none of this was planned. None of this was I wasn't on the trajectory to be a doctor, was not on the trajectory to run ultramarathons. I mean, I ran a little bit in high school, but I only did it to make my parents happy. Um, none of this was really in the cards for me until I made that decision to put down the drink in 2019. And then just through a wicked ride of trial and error and pain and

suffering and everything that comes with sobriety and trying to like reestablish your life and rewire your brain. Um, all of this like beauty has kind of just like transpired from just, you know, discovering who I am and just letting sobriety iterate. It's been extremely powerful. And then, you know, making a decision to put my message out there online was a big transformative part of this as well. Before, so I'm going to say this about David. There's a lot of times we have guests on and we plug their shit at the end, which is

obviously appreciated. But I genuinely mean, David is one of my top 10 followers, people that I follow, because his message is clear. It's succinct. It's consistent and it's not, he's not trying too hard. So it's David. So milar dot mindset, right? Yeah.

Is the IG handle. And I promise you guys, just check it out. Like even if you're not on this road to recovery, there is, there is pure gold in, in a lot of your words. I appreciate that, man. I appreciate that. Yeah. And that whole thing kind of just started off a whim as well and, you know, turned into me finding

out that, you know, I like to write and I like to try to be inspiring. And you know how it goes too. It's just like the people that you can impact online is massive, you know, in the DMs, people reaching out, like saying that you're helping them out. You know, they decided to get sober because they saw something that you did or you posted. And it's just, it's just been like such a, such a blessing. And just really grateful for all of it and just enjoying the ride. Well, it's so funny because we were catching up before the show. And this is a long overdue chat.

So I'm happy you're here. You're an alumni of the last house. Which your message is very aligned. Like your message online is very aligned with The Last House. I know that program. Shout out Clayton. They do incredible work. They've helped a lot of men recover.

And it's not for everyone. It's not. But it's for the people who really need it. And I'll tell you right now, if I got, if I tried to get sober any other way, I don't know if it would have worked out. Yeah. I needed that intensity and just the full immersion, two mediums. meetings a day, you know, waking up at the same time every day, writing essays, accountability. Everything in that house is accountability, like, to the T.

You know, details matter. We're always cleaning. We're writing. We're never just sitting still. It's just like a full-on behavioral modification. And it works. I saw it work in other people before it started working in me, you know? So I just the kind of things that you see in houses like that and in environments like that

where everybody's like committed and everybody's prioritizing. sobriety is just like and the brotherhood that you establish it's just it's so beautiful it's such a beautiful there's nothing better and i know like when young men come to me or they're you know someone comes to release or they're going to another program or they're going to an ian spot down at surfside the jersey shore i mean there's all these incredible programs out there and they initially are so pissed off to be there but then they realize this is what they've actually been yearning for their entire lives right the connectivity the hard work the sense of purpose right which you've done now in a very serious way. Yeah. And don't get me wrong. Like when I was in the midst of that and before

any of this transpired to where it's at now, I mean, I was definitely not happy to be there a lot of the times because it was hard and it sucked. And I was doing things. I was basically becoming an adult in a lot of ways, which I never really had been before I went there. So there was a lot of things about it that were just really tough. And, you know, in a way, it was kind of like an ultramarathon. It was just like a year-long program. Like for someone who's 20 years old, that feels like forever, you know my life is basically on pause and just having to like having to like tell yourself that you know to just stay another night stay another night and kind of like you know just that delayed gratification it it was just looking back on it it's easy to be like oh yeah like i you know i learned a lot and

i was you know changed my life but like in the moment it was very because you're also going through like that first year sober and you know you're reacclimating to life and just a lot going on in the head yeah you grew up where i grew up where i grew I grew up on the island, Ocean City. On, in Ocean City, born and raised. So right over the 34th Street Bridge, actually. I live, well, my mom lives on the island now. We live in the South End.

But originally I was in Marmora. I don't know if you know, like Whippoor Whippoorall, campground, like the Wawa, that's, like, right over the 34th Street Bridge. Grew up over there. Macamankos and what's the popcorn? Johnson's popcorn. Yeah, went to high school. And like right on the beach, it was great, man. It was awesome.

Was there pain? In your childhood, like, was there pain and trauma? I feel like... There was, uh, there was like alcoholism and addiction, uh, but it was always swept under the rug and not, not ever really talked about. And then that kind of just leads to a bunch of confusion, you know, you don't really know, is this normal? Is it not normal? You have friends coming over your house and, you know, they, they can kind of see it and you're scared that they're going to like see it and figure something out. So it's like you're constantly like, you know, dealing with these demons of like trying to control and like not let anybody see,

what's really happening and you know it's just nobody i never got sat down and like talked to about like hey like your dad is drinking too much it was just it was just a mystery and it kind of uh i don't know i always get confused with the word trauma because i'm like is it was it trauma like i don't really know but yeah i think that that that would be one way to describe it yeah growing up with an alcoholic parent i mean that that that that that that shapes who you are as a human you know I think you got to give yourself permission to feel that a little bit. Did you, did you ever get sober? Yeah, he did actually.

Oh, shit. Yeah. So sitting in an AA meeting with him for the first time was a crazy experience. And he's a little over a year right now. No, dude. Yeah. Yeah. He's been through the ringer, though.

I always like, I always envy people that because I got clean at 20. Yeah. And like seeing guys get clean at like. Like he's, I mean, he's like 60 now. And just, you know, just the, those are two very different battles that you, that you got to fight. Just from a physical perspective. Dude.

Yeah. Crazy. And Alcold did a lot of damage to him. Like, you know, because he had been like marinating in it for decades. And, you know, I luckily got out of it in time before that happened to me. But, yeah, it's been, it's been an amazing experience with that. Do you think your story helped him get sober? Oh, 100%.

Yeah. I mean, I was always, I was over there. And like, you know, there are a lot of times like, I mean, he's a year clean now, but, you know, that's, there was a whole like six. I mean, I came home from L.A. in like five years of me basically like, you know, dealing with his active addiction while I was still sober. So it was a lot of, you know, trial and error and me just trying to support from afar and not enable and just be a good example. And yeah, eventually like, you know, it was more of like, it was more he hit a, you know, dead end with like his physical health and stuff like that and it was kind of time to make a change um but right when that happened i was able to step in and kind of just you know be a good son um and help him out yeah

i was working in the i worked in the er in Atlantic city uh before i went to medical school before i got into medical school i was a tech in the ER there and uh my dad actually came in in alcohol withdrawal yeah while i was working um and i remember i i i remember i i i got a call from my aunt telling me she was going to bring him there because he needs to go to detox because he was like having dTs and um i mean he probably would have seized but they got him on medications and stuff so he chilled out but he was like on one-to-one psych observation like trying to pull his IV out and shit and didn't know where he was and uh anyway he came in and yeah i remember like you know talking with my coworker and just being like hey like this is like crazy but like my dad's here

my dad's here like i just i need like 30 minutes to just sit in that room and just talk to everybody um and then yeah he got admitted to the uh atlanta care is the name of the hospital in nacc and he stayed there for like seven days and um then went out to treatment and that i don't think he even got clean at that time it was like you know a couple times he went through that process and then he was that trauma though yeah that like seeing that was sober eyes and yeah knowing i mean like that's looking fate i mean that's that's death is a real option for your father at that moment in time and here you are trying to like create this path forward and you still can't get yeah past it yeah yeah yeah and i got a lot of buddies too in aa and just in general that are sober and like a lot of their

their dads have passed from like cirrhosis or whatever so it was just like it was always in the back of my head like is he might not he might not make it out of his siblings yeah two younger siblings Either of them. No. No, they're good. They're good for now. And what's their relationship with your old man? I'm definitely the closest with him.

I think I have the most understanding. I think there's still a lot of resentment in my family and a lot of just, it's tough, man. Like, you know, it's tough. And I am the most empathetic about it because I was literally in, when I was looking at him in the hospital bed, when he went in that ED in Atlantic City, I was literally like having deja vu. I was like this because, you know, at the time when I was going into treatment, like he was still kind of like showing up for me a little bit as much as he could. And, you know, the roles were just flipped. I was the one in the gown and he was the one standing on the side of the bed.

So, yeah, my siblings, it's just, it's a weird kind of like thing that we still work are working through. But overall, like just the journey of my sobriety and my dads as well has kind of brought our whole entire family like, much closer together. When I was in high school, we were all kind of living, like, we all lived in the same house, but we were all kind of like on our own little private islands, never really talked about anything and just where do you fall in the group? What do you mean? Of siblings, age wise. I'm the oldest. You're the oldest. Yeah. So you're growing up in this home, you're an alcoholic dad, you're 12, 30, like, when do you start? When's your first drink? When do you, when does David start this? Because it's a quick. I mean, like it's four or five years and you're

getting sober. Yeah, yeah. So I think I was like 15. at the time I took a first drink or maybe... I was the city boardwalk or what? You know, I kind of stayed away from it for a little bit because like my friends had started before me and I think that was just because I saw what it was doing to people in my family. And I was like, I'm not going to make that same mistake. I'm not going to and then, you know, like you get curious and you try it. That's a kiss of death.

Anyone who's got an alcoholic parent that like delays their first drink because they're not going to be like their parent always ends up in the chair. It's a recipe for disaster. Yeah. And then, dude, I took a drink and it was just, it happened like right away. I was like pretty white light experience and just knew I wanted to do it again. It wasn't even like the drink. It was just like the act of doing something I didn't want to.

I wasn't supposed to do and how secretive it was and just feeling like I was living on the edge for a little bit. And just all these, all these things that just came with drinking and that lifestyle that I just instantly fell in love with. And I like got really pop, like somehow got super popular in high school, like after that experience and, you know, made a bunch of friends. And I was on the cross country team, but I was hanging out with all like the football players and the cross players. I was kind of just doing cross country to keep people off my back. And then I was also a lifeguard on the beach, which is basically just like a fraternity in the summertime. So just plenty of opportunities for me to drink. If my high school buddies like weren't drinking or didn't want to party one night,

I would hit up my lifeguard friends. But you're staying active. I mean, you're staying active this whole time, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, at the very beginning, like I was able to control it pretty well.

It was just like a weekend thing. But, you know, as I kept indulging, I picked up weed, started smoking a lot of weed. And then like, it started bleeding into my life,

like, very quickly. And then I started like introducing it to like the cross country kids. And, you know, I remember like we would go on, trips or like travel for meats and I would bring like fucking booze and like shampoo bottles and shit and like we'd be passing around the bus or passing around the hotel room and I was the one

like kind of introducing that to that community. So it was like it was just something that like, this is in high school. This is in high school. Yeah. Yeah. And then the one thing that like really did it for me was doing blow for the first time. That was. Whoa for those listening at home is cocaine. Cocaine. Yeah. That was the that was like the thing. thing that I really liked to do. I thought drinking was my thing, but then I did cocaine for the first time. And that was, that was my thing. Yeah. I knew right away. Where was that? That was at a lifeguard party. I was 16, maybe 17. And you, you're like someone offered or you just? Yeah, yeah. I'd been talking about it on the lifeguard stand with my buddy, like all day. And then we were going to a party later and he was older than me.

And I don't know if we really like planned out there you were going to do it, but I knew he just kind of always had it on him. And he was like, Malar, come here. Just like fat line on his phone. He was like, do this. I did it. And just had such a good experience from it and just felt amazing. And right when I did that, I was like, yo, like, let me get the number of the guy who gives you that shit and got the number. And then basically started introducing it to my high school friends, started introducing it to, you know, a bunch of other people and just kind of like turned into like that guy that was always doing. Do you, do you care any guilt and shame? that when you got sober?

Like, was there an amends around some of those introductions or have you given any thought? I think about that stuff a lot. Yeah, it's a good point. I mean, I don't know. I haven't really, to be honest. I think me and my buddies from high school, like, we were all just like on a very similar page. Like, we were just very, like, we were all pretty into it.

And none of them are sober, but they were never, I was always the one that was like pushing to get drugs or to drink or whatever. And I always like just remember being the guy that would just always I know I hated doing it, but I would always just be like, guys, can we get can we get a back tonight? And I would set up the memo and like the, you know, who's paying how much. And, you know, I would hit up the guy and I would just always be pushing to get it. And that's kind of how I knew. I just, I wanted. I just had some, I had something going on where I just was more inclined to do drugs than my friends. As a, as a doctor, as someone who's. learning the medical field and understands this thing, I think probably better than most. Why do you think you ended up where you ended up in some of your, and like I don't, it's not about them. Like some of them probably maybe have a problem, don't have a problem. Went on, live normal lives.

But why do you think you were ultimately the guy that needed to get? Like, have you been able to quantify that? No, I mean, it's just such a hard thing to quantify. Like, I mean, you could argue genetics because it does run in my family on both sides. Yeah, Paulism. Yeah. Do you subscribe to that as a? I mean, it's, you know, it's just hard to, it's hard to rule it out, I would say.

I don't know if there's evidence that could rule that out particularly. I also just think that I am a very intense and obsessive person, even before I picked up drinks. Like, I just, when I like something, I do it like all the way. And I was that way with skateboarding before I started drinking. I was that way with music before I started drinking. I was that way with a bunch of, I'm still that way. I'm still that way with school, with running, with all these things in my life. You know, I just, I am very, like, obsessive and I'm not afraid to pour my entire being into

what I think is worth pouring myself into. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, it really, and because genetics, manufactured, I just, I don't have the answer. I don't know either. And it's something that's very interesting. And I would bet that it's a multitude of things, like, in, combination, probably like the environment you grow up in, you know, I think also just like seeing my dad and seeing the way that my dad would handle stress and handle problems and, you know,

how much he relied on it. And you kind of like convince yourself that like you're doomed to that fate as well. You know what I mean? Like when you see that like that's your dad and this person that's like supposed to be a role model and, you know, you're also like trying to cover it up so other people don't see. It's almost like you're almost convinced yourself that like I'm doomed to like do the same thing that he's doing because like he's my dad and we're made of each other you know that's what's coming up for me dude it's just this idea that like you're you're living this awesome life like you're the popular guy you're on the lifeguard stand you're you're having the best times of your life but you're holding on to the secret which is my dad when i go home at night like i don't know what

version i'm getting yeah 100% yeah 100 so and then what i mean it's a quick bottom what what happens why Like, how do you go from that first line of cocaine in the lifeguard party to homeless, psych wards, like all the things? Just, you know, continued to do it and fell in love with it. With cocaine. With cocaine. Yeah. And then, like, Adderall and experimenting with different things, like, did a little bit of oxies, did Xanax, did, like, Molly. And kind of just, I ended up going to school.

And that was, like, a big thing for me because I felt like I established, like, this big, popular. like I was popular. I knew everybody at high school. High school ends. And then I got to go to college and like do that all over again. So I'm like getting, you know, I'm a little stressed about that. I'm like, am I going to be able to like, you know, make as many friends as I had in high school, have as good of a time in college. And I kind of go to college and I'm just like, I'm only there to really party. Um, so that, that was one thing. And, um, you know, along with all the stress that just comes with moving away from home, I think just kind of where did you go to school? I went to Wydener University.

You stayed close. Yeah, I stayed close. Yeah. And I was just there to party. And just, you know, it was Thursday, Friday, Saturday. That's what I was doing. And eventually, you know, you do it. I was doing like Adderall all the time up there and waking up and just feeling like

absolute shit, like tremors. My voice would shake. Like I was getting like physical symptoms. There's a mania. Yeah, yeah. When you stay up all night like that, I mean, that's not. No, it's not. it's not good for your nervous system at all. And so I'm seeing like physical symptoms. I'm starting

to get like anxiety. I'm starting to deal with all these like different like demons that I, I don't know like what's going on. And you know, my mind isn't thinking that like it has anything to do with my drinking or drug use because I can still kind of like convince myself at that point that everybody else is doing that and maybe not as much as I am, but it's just the normal thing to do. So I start thinking I got anxiety and depression and I'm trying to like, you know, talk to people I know in the medical field like, hey, like what do you think's going on with me? I'm meeting with psychiatrists. they're putting me on like SSRIs and stuff. At this point, I stopped running and I was like, maybe I should start running again.

Maybe like I need some sort of physical activity in my life. So I start trying to run again. You know, I'm trying to like break myself out of it. But ultimately like none of it worked. And I was a sophomore at Widener. And at this point I made a decision to like start living by myself, which I don't think was a good call. And so didn't have a roommate, didn't have anybody that I needed to like dress, dress it up around. You know what I mean? I could just come back to my own spot and just do what I

wanted to do. And yeah, just kind of eventually stopped going to class was literally just doing blow all the time, drinking all the time, and not showing up for exams. And then, you know, people started asking questions. And that led to me dropping out. And luckily, my mom at the time, like, was able to contact the school and, like, I took like a medical leave, I guess. So technically, I didn't drop out. And then so I at that point, I'm like, I got nothing to do except get high. And I made a decision when I was packing all my shit up from that apartment, moving back to my mom's house. I was like, I've tried meds. I've tried therapy. I've tried all this stuff. I'm like in a lot of self-pity. I'm like, the only thing that makes me feel better is drinking and doing drugs. I'm going to,

I'm just going to get high for the rest of my life. I literally made the decision on the way home. And that's exactly what I did and got home. And as you can imagine, just like, it was like a very rapid like spin out for me. I just I had no I had no other plans like my whole entire day was just like getting high and drinking. Your mom's I mean I'm just so curious because you you're a guy that has all these friends and all these people around you and is I mean they know they have to know. Yeah, they know a little bit. I think I did a good job at at hiding it and my mom mostly thought it was like a psychiatric like slip or something. She didn't really know like the full extent. my friends that were kind of still hanging out with me and my friends that didn't go to college,

like they kind of probably had a better idea of what was going on. Some of them stopped hanging out with me. They were like, dude, I can't. Like, I can't. Can you go back to that for a second though? Because like in today's world, I think the parent is more likely to want to diagnose her child as, you know, mental health, psychiatric slip, need medications, whatever it is. And a drug addict or, you know, or substance abuse disorder.

Yeah. Like I'm assuming that you were, you were experiencing. some mental health crises, right? And like how much of that, once you got sober, I mean, the mental health stuff went to the side? Dude, 100%. This is like such an interesting thing. I could talk about this for hours. It's such like a problem in medicine, too, because like the, like spiritual insecurity and

mental health problems, like present nearly identically. So you have people coming in that are drug addicts and using drugs. And, but, you know, they're just like anxious and uptight and, like, depressed. And obviously that's like a byproduct of using drugs. And at the time, I didn't put like two and two together. I just was naive and I didn't know. So my whole like kind of first year of sobriety, I thought that I had a lot of that stuff. I thought I had anxiety and depression.

And they were put it. I was like medicated. I was like very well medicated on like SSRIs, mood stabilizers, antipsychotics. And I came to find out that, you know, my problem, not saying it's this way for everybody, but for me, it was just my drinking and my drug use. I mean, I'm totally fine now. I don't take anything. And by the way, that's my experience too.

Yeah, yeah. It's just kind of like you need to understand that like what you're doing to the nervous system is you're just like you're lying to it. And you know, you're using drugs to make yourself synthetically feel a certain way. And there's consequences to that. And you're going to wake up and it's not going to be happy with like the decisions that you're making. and I'm not talking about like, you know, you don't just like, this isn't something that like you wake up and it's just like a day long. It's like you wake up and you have to like deal with this. Like some of it is like permanently like embedded in your system. You know what I mean? If you're using like crack cocaine, it's like I still have somewhat of a tremor. You know what I mean? Like seven years later. So I think like just kind of like understanding that and getting sober for a couple years and just getting, you know, used to.

like who I am and comfortable with myself, a lot of that has thankfully subsided and then also like throwing in the spiritual piece as well. So. Yeah, I mean, that's a whole, that's a whole other conversation. I just feel like, and we, we touched on a little bit before we got rolling tonight is this idea that it's like anything but the 12 steps is kind of what I say. Anything but like a program of recovery, anything but acknowledging that I have a drug addiction and I need to actually do the work to to solve that. And in today's world, it takes a lot for people to get to that point because there's so many other off-ramps. You know, I have mental health.

I have this diagnosis. I need to take this medication. And I'm not saying that that is not true for some people. Yeah. But I know for a fact there are people out there that are hanging on to stuff that, quite frankly, like their parents pushed onto them. It's one of the most prescribed drugs. SSRI is one of the most prescribed drugs. And it's such like a stone age type of drug.

Like we don't really know. if you break your arm, like you can get an x-ray and we can see that you broke your arm. Like I could show you you broke your arm, like bones broken. But if you are complaining about some sort of like psychiatric, like anxiety or depression, I can't like get a blood test and show you exactly like what your serotonin, dopamine, norapinephrine levels are and then compare that to like the normal person's levels and tell you that like, yeah, like you have some sort of like chemical imbalance and I'm going to give you this drug and it's going to, you know, then I'll recheck your blood, make sure it goes back up

and you should feel better. We're so in the stone age of it, like still. So, you know, I think that it's diagnosing like these things is like so subjective. And you're basically just rolling with what the patient says, which there's nothing wrong with that. But it's just it's not as definite as, you know, something like an x-ray or a blood test or some sort of biomarker that can kind of like give you more insight into like exactly what is going on. And this is why I was so thankful that I went to the sober living house that I did because

my manager at that house would, I would, we had the med cabinet. How did you end up there? Tell us how you ended up there. So I would go down to Florida like a lot to go to detox and rehab and I would bounce to Florida, come back home, bounce to Florida, come back home, maybe go to like Connecticut or some like weird program. This is all like you're 18, 19 years old. Yeah, dude, I was like a psycho.

So like I would literally come out of like these detoxes and like immediately start using again. And I would manipulate my way back into my mom's house or my dad's house or just anywhere I could get to because my parents at this point are divorced and they don't like each other. So I'm kind of playing their divorce against them. So like when my mom was ready to kick me out, my dad would be ready to take me back in. When my dad would kick me out, my mom would be ready to take me back in. So yeah, so I'm in Florida for a little bit. I get this opportunity to, you know, this last time around to go out to this program in LA, which is the last house in Los Angeles. And it's like

an intensive like behavioral modification, no bullshit, like structured sober living. And my house manager there, every morning I'd come down to get my meds, he would always tell me and be like, yo, like, when are you getting off this shit? I was taking like, prozac and maybe like a beta blocker for like my anxiety or something. But it just put the idea in my head where I was like, do I really need this? Like, do I really need this? And then I started thinking about it like full circle. And I was like, okay, like I'm going through this like major transition in my life right now where I'm literally D-Ty-time. of like crack cocaine. I'm trying to like figure out who I am. It's just like do I really like am I really

this dependent on like a drop like a pill every single morning and I wasn't. And because of him, I tapered off of it and I stopped taking it and I haven't taken anything since and I feel great. So I think it is like very common to like overprescribe like a bunch of these medications to people who are, you know, struggling with addiction and doing drugs. And it's a big reason I went into the field. Because when I came in, like I said, like I was, I was literally on enough medication for a paranoid schizophrenic. And I was falling asleep at noon. I'd take a handful of pills every single morning. And I would get so, like, somulin and sleepy.

And I'd fall asleep on a yoga mat at the rehab center at literally noon. And, like, people didn't know what was up with me. And, like, slowly, I titrated off of all that. And, you know, like I said, like, I'm totally fine. But that's just like, it's a typical, like, treatment M.O. Like, you come in, you see the psychiatrist. psychiatrist is like, yep, SSRI, yep, we'll put you on propanololol, yep, we'll put you on like, you know, lithium, like, whatever. They'll give you like a whole cocktail. And I don't really

agree with that kind of treatment, you know, I think that a lot of this is like a spiritual malady. I'm still like a big proponent of that. I think that there's a lot of, a lot of this can be fixed with spiritual intervention and physical exercise, I think. Yeah, I'm glad you got to that second part. Like, look, I think it's like a couple things are important to say. One, like David is not sitting here saying that medications don't have a place in the world. We are talking about, we are having a conversation around something that's very, very, very, like we are threading a needle here. Yes.

Right. And so I want to just make that very clear. And I will say the same thing that you just said, I think, in a different way, which is like doctors not taking a holistic approach in the substance abuse, behavior, health care field, are doing a disservice to their patients because while like there were some detox med that that were effective the things that I stay sober on today are physical fitness running mainly and and I mean like human connection spirituality right you know and and when does it click for you that I am going to like this is what worked for me and this is going to be my message online to other people because

you're not doing it in a way where it's like in your face. It's just you're just what I believe. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I, I didn't, I was, I didn't know like any of this was going to happen. Even like a couple years into my sobriety. I mean, you get out of the last house. I get out of the last house. For a year and you come back east, right? I come back east to go to school. Yeah. And to go back to nursing school at the time because I was a nursing student and Widener let me back into their program after I like emailed a bunch of people and they're like, we'll give you your seat back. So I come back there and I have this totally different experience because I was there the first time I was there I was getting high. I was, you know, nobody knew, no teachers knew who I was. I wasn't showing up to

class. If I was in class, I was in the back of class. And then I come back and I just have this whole new attitude about life. And I actually move into a, because I don't know anybody sober out east at this point. My whole entire recovery. I don't know that there's good like 12 step in Jersey at this point. Like I don't know. I don't know. I don't know any of those guys. I just know my community out west.

And I know I'm trying to go back to college. And everybody out west is looking at me like, dude, I don't know if that's a good idea. But I'm like, dude, I want to go back to school. Like I knew. Like I was like, this is what I want to do. And the level of accountability out of place like that just to kind of give you like some insight is I was allowed to go back to school. But I had to check into another sober. So I actually didn't live like in a dorm or anything like that.

I'm over a year sober. I'm coming back home. And the closest sober living to Weidner was another structured sober living. It's called MVP recovery. It's in Chester, PA. Another like Brian Corson runs it very cutthroat, very intense. So I'm coming to this house and I kind of got a chip on my shoulder. I'm like a year and some change sober.

I'm about to go back to school, a good nursing program. You know, I'm like I got my ducks in a row. I come walking into this place. I sit down with Brian and I'm like, yeah, man. Like, you know, so I'm thinking like I don't really got to do like the whole like, you know, blackout period and stuff like that. He's like, no, bro, like this is my house. You got it. You're treated just like a normal client.

So I got to give him my phone. I'm not allowed to leave the house without like a senior member of the house. I got more sober time than the, than the workers than the house managers. And so I'm like a little upset about it because I'm also like, it's also like kind of affecting my school schedule because I got to be at school a certain time. I got to have somebody walk me to class. Like I'm like in kindergarten. and then I don't have an iPhone. So I'm in class with all these like like nursing students who are like super attractive,

by the way, and all women. And I'm sitting there like I'm trying to make connections with people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, so I'm sitting. So I'm sitting next to you. I'm like, hey, can I like get your phone number like writing it down on a paper and a pen so I can like call. I got to call them from like the house phone, you know, if I need help with homework.

So but dude like that's exactly what I needed though. And that taught me, and it was, I'm talking about it and laughing now, but like, trust me when I say, like, I was not happy about it. I was like, this is bullshit. Like, I'm fine. I can do it on my own. But, you know, at the time, it was very hard. But now it was just like, it taught me that sobriety needs to be number one, like under any,

any circumstances. And you still believe that to that. Dude, it is the, it has to be number one. If I lose sobriety, I lose everything. And that's what that house, like, drilled into my head so hard. And then I went to that MVP recovery and I got humbled again. and, you know, I had to just go through that house. And, you know, I, again, like, I got like a ton of clean time, but I'm just like,

fuck it. Like, I just surrendered to it. And I was like, this is how it's going to be. And I got plugged into A.A. Around Widener, around Chester, Pennsylvania. So I'm, like, meeting a bunch of people. I'm making friends at the house. You know, they got like, they got like 15 houses or something crazy.

It's like a huge program there. So, so I'm, you know, doing the thing. And, you know, I'm at, and because of that, I'm at school and I'm kicking ass. because I'm like sober now and I have I'm plugged in and I'm you know working the steps again and I got they made me to get a new sponsor and all of a sudden I'm like sitting in the front of like you know general chemistry just like absolutely in love with the subject and like you know the teachers are asking me to like help them with like outside research projects after class just like crazy transition and I'm getting like the highest grades on the test like I've never been that kind of student I got an 800 on my SAT in high school which is like it's like really bad like it's like 10 percentile um And so, yeah, just having this crazy different experience at Weidner. And one thing led to another. And I was kind of just like, I think I could get into med school if I really try. And yeah, this just went for it.

Like, once I got sober, I wanted to prove some people. Like, I want to prove some people wrong. I want to prove some shit to myself. Like, what? That's a lot. What's your mission? Like, what is driving you? That's a lot of what it was.

I've always felt like I was dumb. I think that was a big insecurity for me when I was little. I just never felt like I could academically hold myself up to certain standards. So that's definitely a big thing. And I also at the time fell in love with, I was falling in love with running at the time. I'd actually joined the cross-country team at Widener this time for real because I figured that I needed to be around guys who were, you know, not going out on the weekends and stuff like that. And cross-country is perfect for that. Can you just get on the cross-country team or you had to?

Yeah. So I actually knew the coach, the coach had been trying to recruit me like the whole. my whole time I was there, like drinking and stuff. And I was like, dude, I'm not running. I'm not like, stop calling me. I'm not running. And then I came back and so I knew I could hit him up. And he was like, yeah, come on the team.

And it was amazing, man. It was just, you know. So you did four years of cross country? I did like two, I think. Yeah. Were you good? I was, yeah. I mean, I was all right.

Yeah, I ran like a 1450, 5K. Ran like a 418 mile, I want to say. I forget. Is that speaking of you next? Like, was that just in you? Or were you just like manic, like newly sober? Like I'm just going to put the pedal to the metal. I mean, I think I'd like I said, I'd always been a runner my whole life.

And I was always kind of good. Like I was, I wouldn't really try and I could kind of like hold myself like pretty well, I'd say. And then when I got sober, I started actually trying. And I started like using the track workouts and the long runs and all the running as like a therapeutic. like the shit that was going on in my head at the time because I'm still like not even two years sober at this time. So I still got like a lot of shit going on and I'm trying to figure out what I want to do. And, um, you know, and just it's crazy because it's, it's also just hard to be 21 and not partake in like fraternities and bars and especially at the same,

I was at the same exact school that I, that I was doing that. What was that like? I mean, I think the question I really want to ask is what, like how How did you stay sober? How does a young person 19, 20, 21 years old, back at college, stay sober? You convinced that you need to kind of pick up these other hobbies running and... Dude, I was scared. I saw people die out west. And I knew, like, toward the end of my drinking and drug in, like, I was right.

I was knocking on the door. Like, I was, I never OD'd or anything, but I was, you know, in psych wards. And it just... Because you were smoking so much crack. Yeah. And like drug-induced psychosis and, you know, along with that comes like crazy thoughts and, you know, suicidal ideation and stuff like that. So I was at a point where like I was totally okay with dying and that that was that. Like, and I kind of accepted that before I got clean this last time around. So after I came out of that and I had like a year and like enough like level-headedness to kind of like analyze everything, I was scared. I was like, I know if I don't know if I could like do all that again. And, you know, that was a big reason why I checked myself into the sober living at a year clean and why I, you know, joined the cross-country team. And I was always like every single thought that went through my head went through the is this supporting my sobriety filter. And and and that's how I stayed sober. And I did have a little stint where I was like going out to fraternity parties. And, you know, I was the guy that was just like drinking water. And, you know, I still wanted like to have that. I needed to like, experiment with that. I was like, I need to kind of know if I can still have a good time and go out and be the life of the party and play flip cup with Red Bull and, you know, talk to girls and shit like

that. And I did that for a while. And for me, it wasn't fucking fun. Like, I was up till four in the morning and I was dead sober and I was just like it, you know, now the next day I'm going to be like, I'm not going to be hung over, but I'm basically going to be hung over because I went to bed at 4 a.m. You know what I mean? All of it. So then I realized that like what I thought was fun. There's nothing worse in coming home from a party that you didn't want to be at that you're like you feel like a fraud almost. Yeah. And you're like yipped up on Red Bull and you hate yourself. Dude, it was, I hated it.

Like, but and I say that carefully because I do know people who can do it who like that. And like they love like dancing or whatever. Like that's not me. That's not me. And I quickly realized that. And I was like. I can do it a little bit. Like I had like I have my moments.

I can do it like a couple times a year. You know what I mean? But like I'm not out here like doing. that twice a week. Like, that's, that's crazy. But I know some people are about that. But for me, like, I was just like, there's got to be better ways to spend my time. And I needed to, I needed to, like, feel that though and try that out because I was like, I was still like somewhat attached to, you know, that identity that I used to hold. And, uh, but once I like went through that little phase, I was like, dude, like, this isn't fun. I thought this was fun. Like, I was associating,

like, I was associating that with fun. But really like, what was fun was fun was. Like, what was fun was getting fucked up. You know what I mean? Like, I think a lot of people have, have trouble with this, especially in their 20s. It's like, everybody thinks that's fun, but it's not, it's not actually fun. Like, what's fun is everybody's fucked up. You know, like, I didn't understand that like I could actually, you know, I could do other things that would like make me feel good, like, you know, surfing, running, you know, having conversations like this with people. I just remember those, those felt like the biggest tasks in the world. Like, when you're getting loaded, the idea of going surfing or going for a run or showing up and seeing family is like there's no shot.

For sure. Yeah, for sure. So it's just you dig yourself deeper and deeper and deeper into that hole so that you don't have to deal with the anxiety that you have no ability to show up anywhere. For sure. Yeah. And it was just like I just quickly like was okay with not partaking in that after that. Your stud. Like you're a stud. Like we know you're a stud. You come out of this thing. You go to last house. You come. You go to nursing school. you graduate, right? Is that? Yeah, I graduate. Yeah, but I, but I changed the premed. I changed the premed. Yeah. The thing I want to like really dig in here with the time that we have left. Yeah. And congrats, dude, on the seven years. Thank you. Thank you. Just, the smile. The smile says it all. So I want to get into the content you're creating and I want to get into your message. But like,

before I do that, like what today sitting here? What is what is your North Star? What are you driving towards with all this the endurance races and the content and the med school and are you running from something? Are you running towards something? I really aspire to talk to the younger generation and show people that there's another way to go through your 20s that doesn't involve getting fucked up every weekend. And there's other ways to be happy and fulfilled and live a purposeful life and still have still be popular and still have good friends and still be able to do like epic cool shit. Um, and you could be sober the whole entire time. Um, and I really want to show people what's behind getting sober. Um, I think that there's this idea that not drinking is like just about not

drinking and like that's, that's it. But me and you both know that like this is like there's so much more to it than just that. Like that's just the very beginning. And I like I just, it's changed everything about me, not even just me. It's changed my family. It's changed my friends. It's changed environments. It's open doors for me that I didn't think were possible. And if it's done that for someone like me, like I'm not special. I don't come from like I would be in Ocean City right now, like just doing the same old shit like if I never got sober. Like we're dead, right? So like I'm not like some special snowflake here. If it did that for me, I'm positive. It can do that for anybody, whether you have a problem or not.

So I just, you know, I really do everything I do to try to, you know, open people's eyes to just, you know, seeing like, you know, what's possible behind this. Have you had young guys, young men and women reach out to you and, like, identify with your content and say that they've made change because of it? Yeah, I coach a ton of them online. What does that look like? Like my coaching program? No, just like, yeah. I mean, like, they hit you up and you say like, hey, let's start. Yeah.

I'm like, let's, you know, fill this out. Let's start working together. and it's, you know, it's just like a normal coaching program kind of. But I mean, it's amazing. Like, it's amazing because like when I was getting sober at 20, like, I didn't have any of that. Like, there was, I don't remember a single person like on my social media that was like living sober. I'm sure there were people. But it's in last year, it's really.

It's really kicked up. Yes. I mean, my whole feed is, you know, and part of it, I think is people understand that. Like, you post it your two years sober. You're going to get a shitload of engagement. People are going to applaud that. 10 years ago, people weren't applauding that. Right, exactly.

Like, you're a fucking sober, you're a loser. That was what it was. That was what it was. So I get pissed today because people think there's just like this stigma. Yeah, there's stigma, but like, do you know how much progress we've made? A ton, dude. A ton. I mean, like.

Yeah, a ton. People will listen to this conversation. I'm going to pull up one of your posts here because there was one I wanted to. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think really to like be that, be the person that I needed at the time I was getting clean, I think is the biggest thing. All right. So this is one. Happiest sober people I know are still full-time addicts just hooked on different high. God, fitness, pain, impossible goals, helping broken strangers because they still remember what it felt like, finally found a way to get and stay high.

Yeah. Can you talk about that? Yeah. So I think that a big, big part of my sobriety is kind of trying to redirect the addictive personality, which I know some people aren't fans of, but for me, it's been incredibly useful. I think that addicts and alcoholics have this particular gift to obsess over things and think and feel very deeply about something that they think is important or worthwhile. And a lot of my life has, you know, been a result of me just pouring myself into a task completely and kind of using the same energy that I would use toward going to pick up a bag or get a drink and just using it in a different way. I can guarantee that you remember a lot of times where you know, you woke up sick or

something like that and there was no way that you weren't getting a bag. Like it was going to happen. Like you are going to get well. And so really I don't try to like cover that part of me up. I try to just like harvest it and use it in different ways. And I think that a lot of people do. I think that's why so many sober people are doing ultras or marathons or, you know, whatever. Because I think, I think that the energy has to go somewhere, somewhere else. And the energy is strong, man. Like the energy we have to kind of sit down and really, like, focus is very powerful. Two more.

Yeah, go ahead. And this, by the way, like, if you're, if you're, you're going to follow them because I told you to follow them at the beginning of this episode, but hundreds of thousands of followers and this particular post has been shared thousands of times, another sloth. in this post is alcohol numbs the pain God sent to wake you up. I'm a huge fan of pain. I think that this is where I wanted to go to. This is where this is where I wanted to get to like the pain as the motivator. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of pain. So a big reason I still run the ultras and a big reason I think that it's such a good teacher. And you know, as I reflect on my sobriety journey, my whole entire

first year of sobriety. I wasn't a person that got sober and started feeling better like immediately. I was a person that got you take away the drink and I start to get worse. Like I start my defects start to crop up. You know, I get anxious. My self-esteem goes down the window. And for me, like, putting myself in in places of pain today to remind myself where I came from and the kind of shit that like I had to go through to get that year or that two year sober is so important for me to to remember for for many reasons one just for myself like i need to remember what exactly i went through to get here and and not only like remember it but i i really like to be comfortable enough with it that i voluntarily go back to that pain that comes with you know getting sober and obviously

i'm not going to be like out here relapsing and shit because i would just be dumb but i think ultras are a great way to kind of like put yourself in this place of like voluntary uh you know suffering and like healthy torture in a way to kind of just like take your mind back to like where you came from. It's like it's day one. The pain is day one for me and I and I need to continue to keep going back to day one to remind myself like where I came from. Because if you get too far away from it, especially with all the success and shit, it's just like I can easily like forget about that part of my life.

And I never want to forget about that part of my life because it's done so much. Pain always does more for you than you do for it. Always. It's, I'm so grateful for pain. Yeah. I really am. So my entire life is built around like the pain that I experienced the most when I got sober was the guilt and the shame, like the pain of the people I hurt.

And my therapist and I talk about this all the time. Like I work really hard to make sure that I never hurt people like that again. Part of that part of it's not going to be the last one I read, but you said something else in there around like introduce an anxious person to endurance sports and like change. And like I believe that. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's so much to take from physical, especially running.

Like, it's just, dude, it's... What's the biggest one you did? You did this 60 mile with a crazy ton of vert. You did 100. Like, what's your... Yeah, I did a 24 hour around this time last summer. I did 108 miles and 24 hours. That was like the longest...

Are you training now? Not, not specifically. No. I got a friend who's about to run that race this weekend, actually. So I might go up and pace her a little bit. Oh, the same one. Yeah, same one. But no, not training for anything currently.

Do you see like an endurance athlete like a committed like in the in the future? In the future. I don't know. Like I don't really view it as that. Like I think for me it's more spiritual. It's more of like a spiritual thing. And it's something that I won't ever stop doing by any means. But it's something that just, you know, I think I put medicine and I put like. content and stuff like above above that in terms of my priority list and then you know physical fitness

and like ultras and like trying to be competitive in that realm as falls like third so yeah I think I just have other things going on and I'm not yeah so this is the last one I want to read because it really stuck with me and it's something that I kind of experience every day in my life you said I've never met a person who regretted staying sober for one more day but I've met plenty who regretted the opposite and lost everything because they made the mistake of thinking 24 hours couldn't possibly undo the work that took decades, but it can and it will. A single loose stone is all it takes for gravity to do the rest. Yeah, I've seen that happen plenty of times.

I had a friend who had over a decade clean and went back out. I think he originally started gambling and then next thing you know, he's picking up dope, and then next thing you know, he's dead, and he's got a kid and a wife and just like that dead. And this is a guy that, like, you know, basically mentored me through my whole entire first year of sobriety out West. Another guy who was a manager, one of my house managers out west, same thing happened to him, just went out, copped some perks, and I guess they were laced with Fent or something and took a pill. And just 30 years old, good looking guy, great family, played the cross in college, just dead in his apartment. Roommate finds him. So I just, it's just one of those sobriety is a bitch because it's one of those things where like you really don't get a break from it.

You know, it's like a daily reprieve. It's something that you need to do every single day. And, you know, you... But, like, that's the thing that I think you're smashing is, like, that sad, sack shit that, like... The thing that I try to give people is, like, dude, it... It's going to get better. And then you're, like, you're not ever even going to think about it again. Right.

I do agree with that. Yeah. Like, the fundamental idea of getting high. Yes. If you stay in it. If you stay in it. 100%. Like, I don't...

People are, like, you know, the whole, like, are you sure you can be around... You sure you can go to the tailgate? I'm like... Like, bitch. Yes. I hate that shit, dude. I hate that shit. But it's like, that's my own shit.

It's like, you know, like they're just trying to be nicer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm 15 years sober. And like my mom, like if I spend a little bit too much more time in the bathroom, is still like what was going on in that, you know? So with my mom. My mom still asks me sometimes if like she's cool to have a glass of wine in front of me. I'm like, come on.

Like, it's fine. Yeah, dude, you really, you get to a place where you're just, you're just, you're comfortable with you and you're so comfortable with reality. And it's just you don't, it's a, it's a very freeing feeling. You don't need anything. I remember all the time in high school and, you know, before I got sober, I need, I always needed something inside of me to talk to someone or to make myself feel good. And I, dude, I never take it for granted. Like I can just, I can walk in wherever and I can talk to wherever. I'm talking to you. You know, there's three cameras in this room and it's just, I feel totally fine. Because I'm, I'm just accustomed to myself and I'm

accustomed to reality. And that only happened because I've been sober. You know, I feel like if whenever, like when I was in high school and I was still drinking and I was escaping myself, like I just you, it's hard to get comfortable with yourself if you're doing that. It's been an awesome conversation. I mean, a couple of things that come up for me. Like, one, I want to give you like permission to actually acknowledge some of the trauma you came up with, dude. Like that shit's real, you know. And I discredited my childhood like for, for. And it wasn't anything.

Like it wasn't. Like I had a great, but like, I don't know. like the feelings. Yeah. You know, that fucked with me. Yeah. And just to keep at it, dude, like you are helping a ton of people. I appreciate that.

Where do you see this in like three to five years? I don't know, man. I'm kind of just rolling with it. I would like to, you know, I'm hopefully we'll have my MD at that point. So I'd like to maybe integrate it some way into some sort of, you got to do it. You got to do addiction medicine. I'm telling you, man, like, we need, we need guys like you carrying this thing forward. And people that are willing to sit across from a patient and say, like, I might prescribe you this medicine, but I'm also going to prescribe you like eight laps walking around the track and drinking enough water and getting eight hours of sleep.

Because that's the shit that you'd be surprised. You walk into these treatment centers and these programs and they just don't talk about it. No. Yeah. Those were the things. Like the drugs and the alcohol fucked me up. but like I wasn't getting eight hours of sleep. I wasn't eating properly.

I was like all the basic life shit goes out the window too. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And I just want to extend some gratitude to you too because, you know, I kind of, you know, you got to understand. I came up kind of like listening your content and seeing like ride out and seeing all these other guys. And, you know, you guys have really lit the way for me. And I'm sure many others and people that aren't even like at that level yet, but we'll be soon.

And, you know, so I'm just trying to, you know, keep the, keep the torch carried. And yeah, man, it's just, it's been a blessing, like connecting. I'm really glad that we got to talk. Yeah, that's huge, man. And, like, too, like, the truth is, like, at 42 years old, I'm a young 42. Like, I believe that. I'm going to do some more cool shit. But I am also aware that, like, you age out, you phase out of everything in life.

And we're going to need guys like you coming up, like doing it and doing it better. Yeah, yeah. You're like when you walked in, I was like dude, I'm a huge fan of your stuff because I am like I'm rooting for you. Thank you.