The Zac Clark Show - From Eating Disorder To The Toughest Decision A Mother Could Ever Make | My Sister, Kathryn Cannici

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

In this week’s episode, I sat down with my sister as she shared her story for the first time. Postpartum depression. Eating disorder. Obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). We discussed a lot of heavy issues. I believe conversations like this will help change the world. Please give it a listen and share if you feel so inclined. Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254 https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right, welcome back to the Zach Clark show. Today's guest is one of my favorite guests, will be one of my favorite guests forever and ever because she's family. I am here with, you'll always be Catherine Clark to me, but Catherine Kinesey. Hi, Kat. Hi, Zach. I love you. I love you too.

It's great to see you. And, you know, the reason I wanted to have my sister on is we are really trying to have conversations with, real people who have real stories and I think your story is one that I don't think you've ever publicly told and it's going to get heavy at times in this conversation but I think for especially women needs to be heard because it's very easy for the outside world to you know maybe look at you and say oh she's got everything you know and that makes me think about kind of like our upbringing, you know, I think people look at the Clark family or a picture of the Clark family and see you and see me and Matt and Rachel and Rob and mom

and dad and could easily say like they're living the American dream. But the truth is behind that white picket fence is, you know, either. disorders and substance use disorder and anxiety and depression and I guess I'll start there like do you have do you have any thoughts around that I mean we grew up in this little town Haddonfield where it was like I think the expectation is that everyone's supposed to be perfect and you're not supposed to talk about your feelings and all that stuff yeah and I think that I'm just naturally a perfectionist so I feel like the stars were probably all aligned for me to have things that, I guess, thrive under someone that, you know,

wants to be perfect, whether it's school, athletics, friends, all of that. So, yeah, I think that, Yeah, I mean, I think for me, like, you know, there's this idea that, at least for someone that has a substance use disorder, that some of that stuff is hereditary and then some of that stuff is learned, you know, and growing up in this town of Haddonfield, it's this one square mile town where everyone's kind of looking at what car, everyone else drives, and who's got what job and what family's here and who's at the country club. And it was super confusing because I'm grateful for my upbringing because we got a great education, but it was certainly competitive. And I think I struggled with the idea that growing up, we weren't really encouraged to talk about our feelings. I don't know if you can relate to that. Yeah, I don't have any, like, strong memories of. I remember at one point having a diary and writing stuff in that of stuff that I was kind of going through.

Yeah, I don't really ever remember sitting down and like having a conversation about what was going on. I know so obviously in high school, not obviously, but in high school is when, excuse me. My eating disorder started, and I didn't obviously talk to anyone about it. It was more of a people just started noticing that I was getting thin. I didn't know anyone else was talking about it, which is crazy looking back now, because I know mom always says to me like, you know, she would get phone calls. and you know me in my head I was just like nobody knows like there's why would anyone know but yeah and it wasn't until I guess it was mom that confronted me about it and I would

always just like deny it and say it was fine but like obviously it wasn't I wasn't okay so yeah and that in terms of that that was that was hard because there was also the ask of you know mom and dad didn't really know what to do with that right yeah I mean I'm gonna I'm gonna stop you there because I think the the conversation we're about to embark on you know does it tells your story it's very personal to you I encourage you to know that you're in a safe space I got the Ocean Drive sweatshirt on here shot out Seattle New Jersey kind of make you feel at home a little bit and loosen it up but yeah we're gonna talk about it you're eating

disorder and your journey there. We're going to talk about losing a child during pregnancy and the emotion that came with that. And we're going to talk about how you're a total badass and a mother to three and living and leading this big, beautiful life, which I think a lot of women need to see because my understanding is that probably more people suffer from eating disorders and care to admit. Food is really confusing. You know, for me, I'm someone that has a substance use disorder, I don't have to do drugs to survive. Someone that has an eating disorder has to eat in order to live with, like we need nutrition. And so I guess my first question around the eating disorder, you're in high school, and at what point do you first

notice like, oh shit? Like I'm not, I'm not looking at food the way that, you know, Betsy or Cindy or my other friends are looking at food you know like when does that happen those are my friends no um so it's interesting because i think that in you know because i've down the line had treatment for it and i've talked to other women girls i've been in treatment with like 16 year old girls which is like super humbling um but um yeah there wasn't some huge defining moment for me. I wasn't being like teased about my weight because I was never overweight. I was always like a normal weight. So I don't it's like I and I always try to think about that through all through all the therapists I've seen. Normal to what society. Sorry. Yes. Like an average yeah. I hate saying like

BMI or whatever because that's all like BS but um but yeah. What is BMI again? That's your body mass index which yeah anyway that's another story but um yeah i don't have some like aha moment that i woke up and just was like all of a sudden had like foods that i was scared of or all of a sudden was like i'm not going to eat carbs or like that type of thing um i guess it was a it was a gradual thing i was in track i was in track at the time so that definitely definitely definitely like helped the eating disorder because it was basically just continuously lowering my calorie count because you thought it would make you faster and skinnier or what is the thought process there I know and that's what

it's it's I guess I liked it was kind of a high of losing the weight I remember like stepping on the scale and like seeing not going to like throw out numbers but like seeing certain number and seeing it go down and being like oh my god like that's really low and like how far can you push this so you were proud of that it was almost it was yeah it was kind of it was like an achievement and which is wow still like for someone like me like I was doing well in sports I had always done well in sports I always did well in school So it's like I don't, it's not like I was trying to like overcompensate for something or I was trying to like find my thing I was good at. I think it was just a lot of it was that I'm, like you said, some of it's hereditary.

I just feel like I was like a prime target for an eating disorder. Like I just had all the things that would line up with because, you know, down the line later, obviously there was the anxiety, the depression, which a lot of people that. that suffer from eating disorders. It's kind of like part of it. Usually I don't wanna like over generalize, but yeah, it's, it's, so again, I'm, I don't have some like crazy moment where I just was like, I gotta cut out,

start cutting out food. It just kind of happened and it's probably similar to, it's kind of like an addiction. Like you gotta, I was addicted to losing the weight and to seeing, how much food I could cut out and still stand and run. Yeah, there's different, so there's anorexia, there's bulimia, so where, is it everything? I mean, like, I guess that's something for someone that knows nothing about eating disorders.

Can you, what is anorexia, what is bulimia, how do those play into? So I guess the major difference is obviously, not obviously, but so anorexia is character. by just not eating and I don't have like I'm not a medical professional so I'm sorry if these aren't like medical definitions but anorexia is just like a calorie deficit like you're not eating bulimia is um you're binging and purging I think um which I never I didn't I I dabbled in that like um that would be like you would you would eat a lot or just eat and anything you ate you would you would throw up right um so mine was and then a lot of times with those you're you also have body dysmorphia which i also had so that's you know you look in the

mirror you see what you think is like normal or like you don't see anything like scary or whatever like that it's basically like people were seeing me obviously calling mom saying like she's very thin like what's going on and for me I was like what is what are you talking about because I looked in the mirror and like probably still thought I like needed to lose weight so crazy and I mean I look I remember so at this time your freshman soft so I'm five years older than you and so I had been in college when this really started to kind of pick up and so I didn't really know I didn't know I didn't know shit like I didn't know anything about it I remember you know talking to dad at one point in him saying the classic sorry I don't want to roll my eyes

roll away you know we can roll our eyes because I think if there's one dad listening to this and he hears this it can help them but you know I don't understand son why doesn't she just eat food you know and that's like the worst thing that you can say to someone that's in an active eating disorder and so I would just I think like it would be helpful for me to hear what the feelings are around the loneliness and just it's a really complicated obviously thing uh I mean at that point I was so young that it was kind of just like going through the motions of like okay she's going to get you know I didn't go so it's the same with I think addiction like there's outpatient there's

impatient I didn't go to inpatient I just did an outpatient thing so I would like I didn't want to when was it how old were you 16 so you're 16 and you asked for help or mom says you're going I didn't ask for help right I was like what do you why like no um so mom and dad were like yeah dad was like I don't get it um and Yeah, his mom, I think, that probably spearheaded it. And so, yeah, I went to, I mean, I remember hating it. I remember I didn't like the woman, you know, because obviously, like, you're there, you're immediately like, well, she's going to make me all this way.

Like, that's scary. Yeah, they're the enemy. Yeah, I don't want to do that. They're taking this one thing away from you that's actually safe. It's the same thing in substance abuse or alcoholism. I mean, you sit down with one of these professionals. The first thing they're going to, you know, try to do is to get you to stop the behavior. And it's like, fuck you, this is what's, you know, this is my safety.

Yeah, I think, and what's also always a thing that's talked about with eating disorders is the control aspect. You, maybe some other things in your life feel out of control. And then you find this one thing that you can control. And you don't want to give that up. um but yeah so where was i no you you walk in this impatient this therapist walks in and they're kind of like you're they're your enemy that you know this person is not your friend yeah and i just i don't know i remember just being like whatever just get through these weekly i think it was and i maybe at one point i was going every day i don't gosh i don't remember

I wish I could, like, go back and watch myself. But I'm pretty sure, actually, it was every day, like, I would go after school. Like, yet they obviously, like, pulled me from track and everything. And, yeah, I just remember her going through the, like, you know, this is what you can eat for this meal, and this is what you can eat for that meal, and blah, blah, blah. And I guess I listened. somewhat because I it stopped at some point like I like got a better I gained some weight

but you leave that first appointment you have to eat a meal like three hours later like what is that experience I mean I that's where for me it's I don't have the identification because I don't I don't have an eating disorder but I find it very I'll use the word fascinating for lack of a better word but you're basically taking this first appointment or you're in outpatient treatment trying to heal but you still have to sit down and eat these meals and that's where i think people don't understand the loneliness that might exist around meal time and the fear that that comes up every time you have to sit down and eat which for most americans is a very normal thing yeah and i always say like the like even so to this day the jealousy i have of people that just like

sit down and like eat a sandwich or they're at a restaurant and they just like they order whatever they want not what they not what their eating disorder tells them they should have and they still deal with a lot of those thoughts today but um yeah i think that um gosh yeah a lot of people just don't understand the like mental gymnastics that go on with an eating disorder it's you know okay what am i eating like did i work out today am i going to burn that off later um you know and then there's there's just foods that at least in my experience and i know there's like a term for it it's not like trigger foods it's like fear foods i think they call it so it's like you know when you're confronted with foods that like ice cream pizza whatever that you've like had

this list of like foods that like scare you that you don't ever want to eat and then if you're like faced with eating it's like it's I mean it's it's it's it's really hard and the fears you take one bite of pizza or one bite of ice cream or one bite of one of these fear of foods and all of a sudden you're going to gain this weight or it's you know you're going to like what is the fear there? I mean, for me personally, I don't, I mean, I think at this point, it's like I've come to the realization that like you're not just going to like eat a piece of piece and wake up and be like 20 pounds heavier.

I think back then when I hadn't had the tools and I hadn't had enough help, I think that yes, maybe that was that was the fear, but it's, It's more of just like the anxiety that comes from it and like knowing the anxiety that's going to come for it. So it's like it's easier to just not eat it than to eat it because eating it means you are just sitting there and your thoughts about that, you know, bite of ice cream you had. And it just like ruins your whole day. You're not even like really focusing on anything else. Yeah. I want to revisit something we were talking about before we came in and you got emotional and it, it stuck with me.

It's this idea that, so this started at 16, you're now, I don't know, I don't want to out your age 19, 20 years into this journey of having an eating disorder. and you can you say what you said to me and tap into that emotion of just why it's hard to talk about and I don't know if it's like imposter syndrome or what yeah yeah so I mean I've had help multiple times I mean as recent as you helped me and I don't know if I can like say names but like I went to balance here in the city shout out and um that was as recent as 20 it was right before the pandemic so I guess it wasn't that recent um and I don't know so I guess I look back on these different forms of help I've had I've and I've had therapy and you know all these things, dietitians. But when you asked me to share my story, I think I just got really

nervous and hesitant about it because I'm not someone sitting here that's like, hey, I'm fully recovered. Like, food is great. I don't, I'm not scared of it anymore. Like, I'm like, you know, let's go to McDonald's. Like, that's just like not, that's not where I'm at. And, I would never, sometimes I don't know if my stories, in terms of my eating disorder is worthy because I'm not recovered. And like I said to you, I don't know and I don't think I'll ever be recovered because I just don't, and that's sad because I just, I don't know if there's a world in which I can go through an entire day and like not have some sort of thought.

around food and what I ate and if it was enough or because like I think now I'm at this point where I'm very in tune with it and I know like when my body is telling me like you didn't eat you didn't eat enough today or not eating enough today you know so the you know the eat ed as they call him sometime eating disorder yeah i remember reading the letter that you wrote to your i guess that maybe it was balanced it made you write a letter to ed or ed or yeah yeah it was powerful because it really allowed you to kind of have an open farm to talk shit on this thing that's you know yeah and i guess it's just i don't know i think there are people that are recovered or say they're recovered and like you know they're like um and i read

those stories and again it's like a jealousy because I'm kind of like it's like going back to just like the type A perfection like oh I'm not good enough like now I'm not good enough at getting rid of the eating disorder you know first it was like I'm really good at this I'm good at having this eating disorder but then it's like flipped it's on its head and I'm kind of like I want to get rid of it like i i hate this thing like more than anything it's stolen a lot from me and i don't want it to um take any more for me especially now that i'm a mom um yeah i hear you was an outsider someone that's very close to you it's been incredible to watch your journey, you know, like, I think you sit there and maybe this is the psychology

that I think for humans is just so challenging because I do look at you and I say you're a beautiful mother of three, you know, Luke Clem and Tanner. I mean, those guys are, you got a mini football team. And, you know, shout out to your husband, Dan. I mean, like, when people ask me about your husband, I'm like, it's the guy that if you're a brother, you want your sister to Mary because this guy is just the fucking best and you know I don't know if it's fair for you to say that you're you're not recovered I mean for me the closest thing I have to relate to it is my you know substance use disorder and there are plenty of days that go by where I don't think about drinking or doing drugs I mean more days than not but I also don't have to do those things

to live and so I would feel like there's a little bit of compassion or empathy here for yourself that it's impossible not to think about something that you have to do I don't know if that makes sense what do you're sorry like you have to eat you have to yeah so you're saying like not a day goes by where you don't think about hey I have I eaten too much I have I eaten too little yeah yeah but you it's something that you have to do it's a part of your everyday life yeah yeah and I just think that also it's just like the culture around food and eating you know sometimes eating disorders I think are glorified on on social media and yeah there's a lot of like positive movement of you know body positivity and all that stuff but um you know you'd like

to think that you're like older and wiser and that stuff's not going to affect you but like it pops up on your Instagram and then you're it's like you enter these different stages of life and then it just kind of like all comes back. It's like being a mom and then you see the mom the mom's on Instagram

and like you know it just like takes on a different form right um so yeah I mean I can't imagine just even the changes that your body goes through know given birth right I mean yeah go ahead no I mean that's a whole other thing with you

know I I'm sure there are people that have has have had eating disorders and they deal with infertility I luckily did not I is that is that common so if you have have any disorder your chances of getting pregnant or i don't want to like no you're not being held to anything here um and like but i mean yes there are i i know of instances of women being at too low of body weight and i'm you know that they cannot get pregnant um or that they've put their body through so much that you know it's just not working the way that it should and um i was terrified of that um i know mom was she she would always yeah well your relationship with mom is bizarre i mean it's you know yeah we go there we might need a

part two here yeah yeah it's loving and it's amazing and you guys are best friends but it's also you know the way that you guys even like it's agonizing to go out to dinner with you guys because it's like do you want to share this do you want to do that and like this is years into I don't do. She's more, she's more of the one that, I mean, I don't know. I try to not play into that, but yes, that's a whole other thing. But, you know, going back to, you know, pregnancy, fertility, I didn't have issues getting pregnant. But, and it's crazy because you would think someone, you know, if you're, you just, you dealt with anorexia obviously like gaining weight is scary when you are pregnant you gain weight so what was that like I mean first time around with Luke I was definitely like conscious of like the scale going up watching it go up having to like say to myself like okay like that's that's what this is supposed to do but like being who I am I

think I like gained the like exact like recommended amount but like the lot not the lowest but like you know I kept it to a number of what that like I would say is probably like lower than average I mean he was fine and I was not by no means like starving myself but like I definitely like ran and worked out up to a point that like I didn't need to and I shouldn't have been I mean that's just I mean that's great so I mean just to dial that back for a second you have this eating disorder you're anorexic you get married decide you want to have kids you get pregnant and it's literally probably the worst thing you could imagine I've never thought of that like getting pregnant as someone who struggles with anorexia is probably a nightmare I mean that's got to be

so hard yeah I mean it's it's I I think I did a pretty good job of like being I would say like not selfish in terms of like okay like you know there's something growing inside of me like you want to keep it alive but like I just I remember like my one one of my best friends was pregnant at the same time and I remember like she had like really bad morning sickness and so So, like, she was just, like, not, I feel like she was so much smaller than me in the first trimester. I remember, like, seeing her, and I remember being, like, what? Like, you need to gain weight. Like, you know, like, in my head, I was, like, comparing, like, our sizes to each other. But for me, it wasn't the, so, like, full disclosure, like, ever since I was diagnosed with an eating disorder when I was younger, I have been on an antidepressant and I anxiety.

medication when I wanted to start trying for what thank you for sharing that helpful for the listener um no shame um but when I when we decide we want to start trying I was like I'm going to stop I'm going to stop taking it because like I had this whole thing in my head of like you can't be on drugs when you're trying to have a baby looking back now that was not smart because everyone around me like everyone was like you don't have to go off of it like it's it's fine And I was like, no, I'm going to go off it because, like, I felt like a bad person if I was on it, trying to have a baby and then get pregnant. And surprisingly, I went through my pregnancy and was kind of like, okay. Like, I didn't really...

Yeah, because you put in the work. Notice. You did work. That's what I want to highlight there. Is at that point, you would... Well, I think I was just kind of like putting everything aside. I was just like, F the, like... Yeah.

food and all that crap like you're growing a child like just focus on that the problem was in which i will say which i like want to get out there is i um wish that someone had pushed further to like look into my mental state and say like you need to stay on this because you are at extreme high risk for postpartum depression postpartum anxiety postpartum ocd which i got all of that and when i tell you because you thought it was going to affect the pregnancy and in turn and when I gave birth I gave birth this is my first kid and Luke poor Luke I feel like I'm like I always say I'm like you got the worst of me like in the newborn stage because I was like I look back at that time and that's probably one of the like worst I've ever been in my life like to the point where like I thought I was going to get hospitalized for like for like going

crazy thoughts of ending it or just uh i mean it was really the oCD i like wouldn't sleep i would get up at night and i would just walk around the whole house i would check every door i would check every window um is he breathing is baby breathing um i remember there were times when dan was like go in the guest room sleep through the night i'll do all i was breastfeeding at the time but, like, you can pump and, like, he could give bottles. So he was, like, go in the guest room, just, like, sleep through the night. Like, you don't have to get up for any feedings. And I remember, like, him coming in the morning, and I just, like, turned over,

and I just started bawling. So I was, like, I didn't sleep at all. Like, I physically just could not sleep. And, like, obviously, when you don't sleep, I mean, the toll it takes, like, mentally is insane. Like, you go to, like, crazy places in your head. And then I have all these hormones. and I mean I lost the I lost any weight that I gained in like four weeks like I was literally back to my like pre baby weight like it just fell off because like I mean

sometimes it takes up to a year yeah or more to lose baby weight and like but that was like you mean you could do that with your eyes closed based on your I mean you knew well yeah I but like I wasn't really like I honestly wasn't really trying to it was like I just like couldn't even eat I don't know but do you give birth to the child and then all of a sudden you're like this the mind goes off like I need to get back to my normal weight like ASAP um it was definitely like in the back of my mind like okay can I like get out like when when do I get cleared to run like when do I get cleared to work out but also like like because of all of the stuff I was going through it was more so just like that had taken over like the thoughts of just like

And like I remember going to, you know, if you've had a baby, you know you go to the doctor for like the six week checkup or whatever it or one week checkup. And every time you go for these checkups, they give you a postpartum questionnaire. And it's like all these questions, like, you know, like are you happy as you usually are? Like are the things that usually make you happy making you happy? Are you sleeping? Are you eating? it's basically like a scale to like measure if you're struggling and I remember sitting there like I can't answer this like truthfully like they're going to be like are you okay so crazy I mean how

many times when people get those surveys no matter what it's about and just lie because they think someone's going to fucking read it and they're going to be figured out when in reality like I should have been honest because then they would have been like what like what can we do but I was just like, I can't, you know, there's like the questions of like, have you had suicidal thoughts? And like, in my head, I was like, have I? Like, I, a big thing with postpartum depression, anxiety is what are called intrusive thoughts. And they're just like, these things that you envision in your head of happening, you're not going to act on them, but like they just like, you can, like, you picture them in your head.

And you're like, oh my God, like, it's like another person. taking over your brain because you're thinking these things and they freak you out because you're like oh my god oh my god like why am i thinking this like that's like you know that's crazy um and then you're like am i crazy um so it's yeah it's these things where you're like well i can't answer this truthfully because they're going to send me away um and take me away from my baby but there was also like moments where like i remember luke was like I don't know like four weeks old or something I mean they're like so small and I just remember like sitting there

crying to him and just saying I'm sorry I'm so sorry because I was like you deserve a better mom like I didn't think that like I felt bad for him because I felt like he got a shitty hand yeah well he didn't because you're the best mom but I want to move into something pretty heavy

here in a second, but before I do that, I just, I want to ask one question that I don't know why it just came to me, but, you know, during all this and at some point in your development, Zach, I am going through a crazy, you know, heroin addict, mom and dad not talking, fights over me, all the energy on Zach, because Zach's going to die. it was much more, you know, present and easy to wrap your head around that than Catherine, who is... This is a heavy topic. Yeah, so, yeah, it's a heavy topic, but I think it's important for siblings to hear. Like, how did it feel to be you?

And at any point, did you go deeper into your eating disorder to say, like, hey, I'm over here, mom and dad. Like, you have other kids, because that's something I hear a lot is, you know, a lot of the energy goes on to the, the kid who's struggling the most. Yeah. And then the other kids kind of get jealous or act out. Yeah. And I've honestly never like talk to mom and dad about this at all. And I've certainly.

We don't talk about anything in our house. I know. And like I feel like, well, because here's a thing. You bring this up that it's like mom just takes it like so personally. And she's like, oh, I fucked up that too or I did this wrong too. And it's like no one's trying to point out what you did wrong.

Like that's not what we're trying to do here. we're just like sharing how we felt at the time or our feeling at the time. Yeah, we have the best parents in the world. What? I said we have the best parents in the world. But, yeah, I mean, I think when it was happening, like when it was first happening, it was more of the, it was more of the like, hello, like he needs out because, like, it was kind of the thing like they weren't they like knew something was wrong but like you know

it was like the early stages where and I I moved to Florida with mom I like lived in Florida with mom because I was like I'm getting away from this like I don't just like which I had no idea I thought you and mom were just hanging out like I was just I would have never known that that was like a very direct it was just like things yeah it was like things were tense like you said between mom and dad and like I wasn't finding any like I was fresh out of college trying to be a TV reporter and I wasn't finding anything there and I was like let's go to Florida and like which like God bless Dan because we did the long distance for a very long time I mean I graduate college and was like bye I'm going to move to Florida um which was like pretty trying on our

relationship because you know it's we're still very young and like we were far away from me we were playing right away from each other um but to answer your question did I go deeper into the any store I mean I don't know it was always like there but like I don't know if I necessarily went like deeper into that I probably was like drinking more than I usually did um as was mom probably but we were together and like you know we were kind of like in this like bubble where we're like we're pretending things were okay i guess um i think that was there ever a point where you thought i might die like was there was that thought crossed your mind like this guy's not from the eating disorder no no me like me i thought you might die yeah um

I mean, yes, but it was like such a, like, crazy thing to, like, wrap your head around. And I think that it was more of the, like, not us. That's not going to happen, like, to us. Right. Like, it's, we're going to figure it out. I mean, thank God you did. We did. Yeah, but how many families say that and then don't figure it out.

I know. I know. And, like, it's like, that's, you know, that's how it was dealt. I know it could have easily gone the other way. But. Well, then there's this fucked up thing that happens too. And like I have a lot of compassion for you because for me, I get sober and there's a lot of this like love and oh, I'm just so proud of Zach. And I've heard other people tell me this and they're celebrating me.

But here you are like working your ass off, but you almost have to like live in the. closet with this thing because the eating disorder isn't as well known and it's I don't know I mean I just feel I almost feel bad about that and I want to say like enough about me like let's you know yeah I mean I've definitely like spoken to Dan about it as like there have been there's been times or I've just been like legitimately just like pissed off because I'm just like it's lonely you feel like nobody cares and it's like this the sentiment's always like you don't want to say these words like came out of mom's mouth but it like their mouths but kind of just like that's oh you dealt with that that that's we don't deal with that any you don't deal with that anymore like come on katherine

like grow up type thing and it's kind of like oh oh okay but like let's put all our time support money to make sure that Zach's okay but like you figured that out so like you know get over it type thing and that's like a tough pill to swallow um and I know it doesn't it's not like they like love me any any less I think it's like what you said it was like maybe I always think I'm like I guess because mine I didn't I wasn't like life or death type thing or like I wasn't like found like passed out next to a treadmill or like whatever but yeah there were times where like scary shit happened but like i don't know i don't know if it just never like and i think that's why it was hard with like the family starting to learn about addiction and everything and

like i just remember like dad getting so passionate about like you know it's a disease it's you know and it took him time to learn that, but, like, he learned it. And I'm like, well, nobody, like, learned about the eating disorder. Nobody, like, sat down with me and was, like, that's a disease. People die from that every day from eating disorders. I don't have the stats, but I know it's, like, pretty astronomical. So. Well, I'm sorry.

I mean, there's a part of me. No, I mean, there's a part of me. No, it's real shit, though. Like, I don't, you know, I'm going to think of the way that, like, you know, as someone works, does this work and cares for a lot of people, have I shown up the best way that I can as a brother in our relationship? So it's something for me to think about. And are we as a society and as a collective group giving enough attention to people that,

having eating disorders and is one of the main things this idea that you're kind of like in it alone like you're alone it's lonely well i think a thing too is like people have this thing in their head like oh an eating disorder is like you know when you see it like you see someone and you're like they're emaciated like they're about to die that's what that's what like the world that's what people associate that with when in reality like anyone in this room walking down the street like that you don't even like pass a glance at like it doesn't eating disorders don't have a size like that's just like a fact like you can look normal and be struggling like so much so I think that's like a big thing especially that I always see like I follow a lot of like positive accounts like eating disorder

recovery accounts that are a lot like you know like just because just because you don't look like you having an eating disorder doesn't mean you don't have one and like how you're feeling is valid what you're going through is valid like that type of thing yeah holy shit yeah I mean like I'm just really taking this all in because it's something I talk about the time with again what does a heroin addict look like sure it's not what people assume it doesn't mean you're living under a bridge eating out of trash cans i mean a heroin out you're going to walk by you're going to leave this office on the way to your car and you're going to pass five six 10 20 heroin addicts and you have no idea with suits on and going to work and raising families

and all that stuff and so just this whole idea of getting out of the darkness and into the light i mean for you i think you're taking a big step with that today and you know i love you for it um all right we have a little bit of time left so i want to get into the heavy heavy here um and just jump back kind of into your story because you know one i so there's a couple things i want to preface by saying like one i am 40 and very much do not have kids So I have not walked through the process of getting pregnant with a partner. And as someone who hasn't done that and hasn't really been forced to do some of the research, there's a couple things that I've learned about pregnancies.

One, miscarriages happen a lot more than the general population think. So there's that. you know there is a lot of political conversation and that's not what I want to go into here around abortion and miscarriages and how do you classify these things and what do they look like and for you I think um you get pregnant the second time and what happens I mean I think that's not my story to tell I think too I'll I'll preface it with saying like you said like miscarriages are common and also just like things can go wrong like so much can go wrong and I obviously didn't realize that until I mean I literally thought pregnancy was like yeah yeah you stop wearing

condoms you get off earth control you have sex nine months later the kids ready to come out there's like that's how I grew up literally thinking like I I you know no there's like so much like math so much so much behind it and like I've already said like luckily I we didn't have not had issues getting pregnant and like my heart goes out to anyone that's like deals with infertility I have I don't know what that is like but like I know people that have gone through it and end up going through IVF and like I can't imagine that so like yeah heart goes out to those people I think it's infertility awareness month or something too but yeah so my

second pregnancy went to our first ultrasound and they were like there's two and I was like two of what like two like two like I guess at that like there's two babies and I was like um you're having twins yeah and I was like what do you what like doesn't run in our family like I don't and like like again like a lot of times just like so insensitive but when you when you're pregnant with twins a lot of people are like oh is it IVF or not and I'm like with none of your business but also like but yeah so not in our family like just happened naturally um gosh and ever since the beginning it was just like it was scary because they were identical when you have identical twins that means they're sharing I want to get this right they're sharing a placenta

so like they're in like one I guess like at that point they were in like one um gosh I forget the like saying like sack I guess or whatever basically when I went into that she was like I'm just gonna like let you know like I guess in those instances like a lot of times like the one might not survive like early on she was like what we need to happen is like I need them to like split into two so that they have their own like like they were like this and she wanted them to be like this So, like, we went, we went back for another ultrasound, and it was exciting because there was, like, you could see this, like, faint line that showed that they were separated, which was good. So, like, they had their own little, like, house.

So, like, I'm having identical, I'm having identical twins. Yeah. This is a real thing that's happening. Yeah. Yeah. And mind you, I am, this is when I was at balance. Oh, so you're in eating disorder. Oh, no, I started balanced.

I started eating disorder treatment. Had I started already? I think I was like about to start so all of this news is coming and I'm like oh my God balance isn't going to let me start there because I'm pregnant with twins so you're in eating disorder treatment and you're pregnant with twins yes okay and I remember like crying like the head person there and just being like so even looking back on that I'm like did I really give myself a fair shot at like the treatment there because here's a thing I was pregnant so like obviously I'm going to eat more because and I'm going to

to feel a little less guilty about eating because I'm trying to feed two babies. But yeah, I was like... And it's baby A and baby B? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so that's how they like identify them. So that was wild because I was at balance from my first trimester, which if you're a woman and you've been pregnant, your first trimester is usually like hell on earth. And because I was pregnant with twins, it's double the hormones.

So like I was like as nauseous as one could ever be. So there were literally days where, like, I didn't want to eat the food there, but, like, I had to separate, like, is it my nausea or is it my eating disorder? It was, like, such a mind-deaf and, like, try and explain to them. Like, no, no, like, I want to eat, but, like, I'm going to throw up if I do. But so, like, got through the first trimester, got through balance. And then, gosh, at our, oh, then cherry on top, COVID started. So this was like early COVID when everyone was like, what is going on?

March of 2020. Yeah, like, can we like go outside? Like, what can we do? But it was at a point where like I had to go to my appointments by myself. Like Dan couldn't come. So it was my 20-week appointment. which again if you've been pregnant that's like the big appointment it's like anatomy scan like it really shows you like everything about the babies like at this

point we had we knew that they were both boys like you find out the gender all of that stuff I kind of went into it like all right like you know kind of nervous but not really because everything had been going fine every time I went to an appointment they were growing at a consistent rate I will say that like I wish the first thing they said to me when they found that they were identical twins they were like this is this is high risk like you're a high risk patient you're going to go to a high risk doctor so like immediately i was sent to a high risk doctor i wish i was going to him more frequently i think i was going like prior to my 20

yeah shout out if you watch real housewives of uh new jersey david principi he dated dolores who's a housewife he's amazing go see him um but I think the last time I had been there was like a significant amount of time had been gone by. Like I don't know if I had like a 16 week appointment or whatever it was, like three weeks or four weeks had gone by. I wish they, you know, you can say whatever, what if, but like, I don't know if they would have caught this earlier. But at the 20 week appointment, they're looking at the, you know, ultrasound, she's looking at things like, okay, to them. And then she's like, I'm going to go, I'm going to go get Doc. That's what they would always call.

I'm going to go get him. And I'm like, okay. And I'm kind of just like sitting there and looking at something. And he comes in, he starts looking at stuff. And like, basically they, I want to say they like, they're like, can you just go out to the way? I had to like go out into the waiting room. We're like, I don't know what it was. And I remember I like texted mom and was like, something seems off.

Like something's weird. Yeah, you know. Yeah. Like I was like something's weird. I don't know what is. I could start Googling like identical twins like issues or whatever, and immediately TTTS comes up. I'm like, what is this?

And it's called twin to twin, twin to twin transfusion syndrome. And I'm like, what is this? And I'm just like, I don't know. So they call me back in. They like sit me down. They're like, look, that's what it was. They're like, it's twin to twin. I can't say it, twin to twin transfusion.

syndrome um basically baby a like i said before as they were sharing a placenta like baby a wasn't getting the right like nutrient like wasn't getting what it could from the placenta like baby b was like basically kind of like thriving but like like hogging hogging the the food or whatever and like baby a was not doing well and literally it went from like like this is the diagnosis to you have to go to Children's Hospital of Pennsylvania in the next few days and what's mostly going to happen is that you're going to have to terminate B.A. And that's that I heard the word terminate and was like, because there's levels of the syndrome, of TTTTS. There's like varying degrees of like how serious it was. Mine was very serious.

And I forget what he used to like describe it, but like it was bad. Sometimes it's not that bad. Sometimes you can get a simple procedure that like, it's called like a laser and they go in and they like separate them so that he can get more of the placenta, whatever. But that just, you know, wasn't the case according to the doctor. But I'm like, you know, call Dan in hysterics. He like, I don't know what happened. Oh, his brother was staying with us because it was COVID. So like he was watching Luke

He like came over But there's no choice You are told that basically This I mean at that point It was just like this is a diagnosis This is what's most likely going to happen But I went to Children's Hospital Pennsylvania

Like three days later Because it was like I was there on a Friday At Principally on Monday I was at Children's Hospital Pennsylvania With mom and Dan We were there all day I had to get like a bajillion test on Like hour long tests of them

just like looking at and like in my head I'm just like praying like maybe it's not that bad like maybe they're going to see yeah that like basically it just confirmed everything and then they sit you in a room and they say here's what's going on here are the options and basically it was don't do anything they're probably both going to die um you could do the laser procedure that I they spoke about but like that's like not a guarantee that it's going to work and also like the point that baby A was at no matter what even if he survived like he like probably wouldn't have lived long after birth or his and his quality of life they kept like saying this quality of life would be very very low basically like he already had like the

brain damage like his brain wasn't developing and they said if you choose or you do what's called selective termination which I like hate that term because I know people are going to associate that with another yeah abortion selective termination sounds like abortions but I mean it does and like you know that was I don't know it's like Like, basically, we were given the facts of that if, because I want to like get this out there, like, why we went the route we did, if we were to not do selective termination, the odds of keeping baby A alive at that point was harming baby B. So basically the percentage of both of their survival rates were like significantly low. if we terminate because it would have like overwhelmed baby B's now Liam um his heart and like that's at least what we were told um so choosing to do the selective termination

gave it gave it was gave baby B a fighting chance yeah because even then it was still like is he going to be like you know but it was like the percentage was like significant so basically they explain all this to you and they say we're not going to tell you what to do this is your decision yeah Dan and I had like two days to like sit and like cry forever and yeah that was Monday Tuesday and then Tuesday all day and that night we had to think about it and I just remember like going to bed Tuesday night being like this is the last time I'm ever going to go to sleep with baby A in my belly and the like first thing in the morning next morning I had to God I'll never

forget they like rolled me away and like mom's crying and like Dan was able to like walk me up to like the OR room and it was like it was like here it was like so bright and I just remember like looking up on a screen it was like baby A baby B like because they had to like keep track of their like vitals and everything and then you know you You're just, it's just like horrible. It's like freezing in there and like you're just, I was crying and they're just like, it's okay. Just like, you know, because then they like knock you out. Yeah.

And then you wake up and it's over and you sit the rest of your life wondering if you did the right thing. Yeah. Well, I think you have to know that you did. And I love that you share that story and I feel like even just for me as a man to hear it is so powerful. I always say I'm the product of strong women and we won't get into it today and we'll have to have you back

but I really believe that you and mom saved my life and like the way that you showed up for me and I just hear your story and I hear that story and I just you're a hero

you know you're such a hero and you're an amazing mother and Liam Baby B is thriving and has part of baby A and I'm and I think we all know that Liam acts out a little bit here and there and screams and cries, but that's probably just like Can you imagine two of them? We always say that. We're like, oh my God. So and I think the moral of the story here in this conversation is, you know, for women who have gone through this, you're not alone. I mean, I can't imagine having to make that decision and They're probably, like, the truth is there probably is no right decision, but it's hopefully something that brought you and Dan closer together and the family closer together.

And it obviously, like, you know, you showed a lot of strength in that. You know, in just your story, the last 19 years of living through this eating disorder is so powerful. So we're running long time. And I just, I want to give you the opportunity to answer this question because I think it's important. As a woman who has this experience now, a mother of three, still working a full-time job, you know, in a beautiful marriage, you know, all the things that a little girl aspires to be when they grow up, right? like you have all those things on paper you do and what would you tell the 14 15 16 year old girl or the 14 15 16 year old katherine that you know is going to be presented with an eating disorder or some other issue that's going to make them feel less than oh my oh um

don't be afraid to ask for help um and take the help that's that's given to you um gosh you mean like me specifically or just any i think any girl out there that's listening to this that you know that or any girl that you have the opportunity to touch with your story i think it's powerful i mean from the eating disorder to the story you just told and the mother-daughter or relationship and being the family member of someone like myself who struggled I mean you've been through a lot yeah um god I know it's like it's like very cliche but like you're not alone um and I was very again hesitant to like like this is going to get put out there like my whole you know shebang um but um

Yeah, you're not alone. Gosh, don't be so hard on yourself. Don't be so hard on yourself. I don't, I did not grow up with social media. So, like, I truly, truly cannot imagine being a young girl and having social media on top of all those pressures and things that I was going through at that time and when I, you know, first developed my eating disorder.

But, yeah, please don't be, don't be hard on yourself. how you look on the outside it's it's really just it's not important um obviously it's good to like take care of yourself and all that all of those things um god i'd want to just like especially if it's like young girls just dealing with the dinosaurs not that i necessarily want to like shake them but I just want to be like, you can come out on the other side. Like, you can get better. It's going to be extremely, extremely hard. But, gosh, it's really hard to, like, put into words.

Because I have so much compassion for those young girls. anyone anyone you know going through that um just know that there's there there's ways to get help and um you know just just just just face it face it head on lean on and hopefully you can lean on your family to get you through it because the one thing you know I always think of is people always say like with life like do you have any regrets not that I'm like old by any means but like I and I kind of said this before like an eating disorder specifically can steal a lot from you can steal relationships there's a lot of I lost a lot of time i've done stuff to my body that like probably won't ever you know be prepared be repaired

there's things that like i you know your bones that that type of thing um so it's just i don't know understand understand like put it put it in perspective that you know you don't you don't want to lose that time um and I don't know, be strong. Yeah, I mean, I think you just said it, right? And I guess my closing remark to you is that I love you. Thank you for helping to save my life. You know, your story matters.

You matter. It's a strong story. It's a strong female story. I think it's one that deals with topics that people in this world face every day that we don't like to talk about. And that's really the goal of some of these conversations that we're having is just to get these stories out into the public so other people can hear them

and hopefully feel inspired to share theirs. And, you know, my ask, Catherine, as your big brother and I'm allowed to do this, is to, you know, forgive yourself. And for me, hearing you talk today, like, I think there's a lot to be proud of And I think there's a lot that you can put your head on the pillow at night and say to yourself, like, damn, I'm a badass because you've done more than most. And so I love you.

I'm going to give you a hug. And that's all for this episode of the Zach Clark show. I love you, too. Oh, sweet. I love you. I love you. I love you.