The Zac Clark Show - How 1 Glass Of Champagne Led To Alcoholism, A Road To Sobriety, And Helping Others Recover

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

It took Dawn Gallagher well beyond 17 years to achieve 17 years of sobriety. Growing up in Brooklyn during the gritty, rebellious 70s and 80s, Dawn was behind the bar by 19, already entangled with hard partying and dark characters. By 20, she recognized her strange relationship with alcohol. At 25, facing a stark ultimatum from her mother to either get sober or leave home, Dawn chose treatment, but this was only the beginning of a tumultuous journey marked by setbacks and hard-earned victories. The next 15 years were a turbulent odyssey: she left a successful hospitality career, went through a marriage and divorce, lived as an expat in Amsterdam, and endured a staggering 35-hour binge that spiraled into nine years of alcohol abuse. It wasn’t until she returned to New York, alone and desperate, waking up in a hungover stupor with blood caked on her that she couldn’t recall, that she faced a profound truth: her deepest desire to stay sober was not enough. This moment of clarity marked the true beginning of her recovery. Now, seventeen years later, Dawn stands as a pillar of support in the behavioral healthcare field. Formerly the CEO of “The Townhouse on Sixth,” a pioneering sober living facility for both men and women, she is now a certified Recovery Coach and a Recovery Associate at Release Recovery. Dawn’s journey is a testament to perseverance and the profound impact of substance use disorder, demonstrating the strength and grace required to transform one's life and help others find their path to recovery. Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

To the Zach Clark show, I am beyond pumped for today's episode, one of my favorite human beings of all time. She works for release recovery. She's been helping people for many years, 17 years so. But it took a lot more than 17 years to get 17 years. We will get into that. Dawn Gallagher, what is up? Hi, Zach. Thank you so much for inviting me.

I'm so excited you're here. I don't even know where to start. Dawn and I met, I guess, when you were running the townhouse, right? that was probably 10 years ago. Yeah. So Dawn was running a sober living. One of the first sober living is in New York City, so she's got a legacy here.

In the city, she was one of the first people to kind of drop, hang a shingle. Yeah. Open the doors, help the alcoholic addict that was, you know, dying. Yeah. So I think the reason when I think about why Dawn,

why you're here, one, I saw a recent statistic, which was that or the most recent statistic that I saw that there are six times more men in treatment than women I don't know the reasons I don't know if we know the reason why

but I really believe that there are a lot of women out there that need to hear your story I also know that by nature of some of my experience going on television my following is largely women right and so your story story today is one that I think we need to hear, the world needs to hear, and we need to get some kind of balance back to that treatment statistic. Women need the opportunity to get

sober just like men. So where, um, born and raised? Born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. Yeah, um, I'm Irish, a Sicilian and Spanish. I'm like, uh, kind of a mutt. I never really fit in anywhere. I grew up in, uh, Kabul Hill, Brooklyn Heights. You know, it was the 80s. It was the 70s. It was the 80s. It was about families. It was about hanging out in schoolyards, drinking Heineken's in the park.

You know, it was a good upbringing. You know, it was a good upbringing. And, you know, first of all, I want to thank you for this opportunity. I absolutely love working at the woman's house. I have the opportunity to bring a message of recovery and show people what it looks like to be sober. Yeah. Because it's not just about not drinking.

There's a lot more behind getting sober. And the fact that I get to work with women, you know, at the women's house and offer them guidance, you know, but at the end of the day, if you don't want to get sober, you're not going to get sober. Right. You know, and I had experience with that. So, you know, I'm living in Brooklyn and I grew up in a great family. I lived in with my entire extended family.

How many six siblings? I have an older sister and two younger brothers. Okay. But I grew up in an alcoholic atmosphere, you know. And this is like the quintessential, Brooklyn. You're in Caldow Hill. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Stickball, kickball.

Yeah, you know, when your mom was calling you for dinner, she'd open the window and scream, you know, scream our names. And that was back then. There was no cell phones. There were no answering machines. God, take you back. It was a time where you went to the street. You went out and you hung out.

And what started out innocently enough, a couple of Heineken's... When is that? Like, when is the first time you're on the block and someone comes up and, like, they're drinking and you're like, yo, let me get... Yeah, probably around 15 or 16 years old. I was actually a part of... I went from... I was in Catholic school for 12 years.

Okay. So ironically, I actually was a home girl. I had a couple of girlfriends, and we used to take our boombox and head to the promenade, and there is New York City. And, you know, we'd go with a six-pack and make... maybe a blunt and we used to hang out and listen to music, listen to rap, and, you know, we had fun and I loved the effect produced, you know, by drinking. I loved it, but I lived with my entire extended family. So it wasn't something that I did every day until I went to college.

I'm sitting here thinking like there's this thing in recovery where they talk about, like, it's a group of people that normally would not mix. And I'm sitting here like a South Jersey kid grew up in like this super waspy town in south jersey and i'm here with dawn who's like my my friend and colleague and she's like 70s 80s brooklyn boombox and there's no other world other than recovery where you and i have this special bond i mean that that's the thing that i think people miss i've met so many cool people on this journey you included so i'm just i'm sitting here grateful is what i want to Yeah. Well, we all show up at the end when drugs and alcohol beat us into a state of reasonableness.

It's nice to know that there's a place to go, right? We exist. There's a lot of us in recovery. And we would not mix, except we need each other in recovery. I mean, at least I know I need people to stay here. Yeah. And when do you, like when you first, when that first Heineken goes down or that first blunt and like when do you, when do you start to know, I know you said it kind of picked up when

went to college. When do you start to know, like, you start looking around, like, okay, I might not have the same relationship with booze as these other people? Probably by the age of 19 or 20, you know. By the time I'm 19, I'm actually bartending in Brooklyn on Atlantic Avenue. And that continued to the South Street seaport, which continued uptown. And, you know, it's a lifestyle. I say to people that, you know, that I know, that I know recovery is a lot. lifestyle. Well, so is drinking and partying. It's a lifestyle. And so I turned into this person that my family didn't even know who I was. You know, I'm hanging out till 4 o'clock in the morning. I'm doing the no-call, no show, totally disrespectful. I had a loaded gun in my bar in the drawer

behind the bar. At 19. Too bad. At 19. Why? You're dealing drugs? Or you just? No, no. I worked in a bar and it was the people that were in there. there weren't, you know, a little, you know, out there. You need a protection. You need a protection. I never used it. Well, the bad I did, but I never used the gun. But I did the bat, you know.

Hold on. When do you use the bat? Tell me the bat. You use the bat when someone gets out of line. You know, there's something about alcohol. The effect that it has on me is so different from most people. When I drink alcohol, it's like liquid courage. Yeah. It's like I'm indestructible.

Right? And I get tough. It took 18 years of working in hotels to knock that toughness out of me. Yeah. You know, and almost two and a half, three years with release to learn a little bit more about compassion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, when I got into that lifestyle, it came along with, you know, late nights, crazy nights, all-nighters, with people that were probably wanted by. The law wanted, you know, in trouble. Blackouts, waking up, not knowing. I think that's always like for me.

Yeah, 19. 19. At a frat party in college. Okay, where'd you go to school? I went to a couple of places. I was on the 10-year plan. Yeah, yeah. I started at CW. Post.

You were on the 10-year plan before we knew the 10-year plan was a thing. Exactly. I started at CW Post. I mean, I kept missing the drinking age. I was 18 and they moved it to 19. At 19, they moved it to 21. And then I headed down at D.C. But the first blackout was probably around 18 or 19.

And by the time I'm 20, I know I have a problem. Yeah. You know, because my family used to say, don't drink. You know, it was the thing. Alcohol was not allowed. So I want to go back to something you said because I think, like, in our work, the family is the patient and the patient is the family. And that's a model at release that we really subscribe to, right?

Like, if the patient is going to recover, the family has a better shot to recover, and vice versa. If the family recovers, the patient has a better opportunity to recover. So when you say you grew up in an alcoholic environment, is that mom and dad? Is that siblings? Or is it just chaos? Well, it was my father. It was my father. And then my mom became that codependent person, you know, taking care of the family, you know.

Is your dad still around? I lost him. One year sober. I was 11 months sober when I lost my dad to cancer. Was he still, okay, cancer? He had stopped years before passing away, but, you know, getting sober, the last year of his life gave me an opportunity to build a relationship, make amends, spend time with him. And if it wasn't for the fact that I was, you know, surrounded by really good sober people, I don't think I would have stayed sober during that period in my life. I was actually able to show up at my father's funeral, able to show.

show up prior to him passing away. And I didn't use. I didn't pick up. I just, like I said, I surrounded myself by really good people. And I made it through because that's a life-altering thing. I want to stay there for a second for I can feel your emotion. And I think this is one of the things that people who aren't in recovery or questioning, getting into recovery don't get.

Like the juice that we get, the ability to, to show up in the hardest times and stay sober and walk through that and be proud. I mean, I have countless examples of times where I've been able to show up. I mean, my mom got sick like, you know, three and a half, three years ago. You know, and of the five siblings,

I'm the one flying down to Florida and able to sit with her by the hospital bed. And I'm scared shitless, but like, I'm talking to someone in recovery on the way into the hospital. I'm going to the bathroom to talk to someone in recovery. during this day, and they just, they usher us through

and like we get to actually feel the emotion that as human beings we're meant to feel when we're drinking and drugging, we don't. We don't have that numbing aging. Right. And so, you know, although my father was the one that, you know, alcoholism is a disease and it affects everyone in the family.

It infected that entire building. Family members, not being able to communicate in healthy ways. I lived in perpetual denial, even when I stopped drinking at 25, from 25 to like 31, 32. I was sober, but I was in perpetual denial that there was anything wrong with me, right? I just carried a lot of shame and guilt and anger, but it wasn't drinking. And then the last time that I got sober, 17 years ago, you know, I quit the career. I went full Monty.

I mean, it's an 18-year hotel career. I walk in at five months and I quit, I resign so that I can spend 100% on getting sober, building a network, going to therapy, spending time with my dad, ushering

him into the next transition, right? Supporting my brothers and sisters showing up from my family. That would not have been possible without sobriety. Was I scared? I was out of my mind in fear. You know?

Well, fear dry. I mean, yeah, we get this, you know, you get it. Like the design for living, this design for living that I think people, unless you're in recovery, you don't get it. And it's funny because I'll be talking with normies or out business meeting or lunch or at the game or whatever. And I'll say something and it'll like people look at me like it's the most profound shit of all time. Exactly. And in my head, I'm like, dude. I got to see.

I got some secret sauce. Like come hang out with me and my people for a minute. Like we have a different way of living. And, you know, that starts with the fear. But then it turns into this actually like self, self,

like the inventory, the self assessment that we get to do. And it sucks for a lot of some recovery. I know for me, like there's so many situations that I step into in life where I know I might not be wrong. But I am told to look at my part, whether it's in a resentment or an argument, business, personal love, whatever the relationship is.

And it can be painful, but it just works. Yeah. Take the higher ground. Sometimes I'm like, I don't want to do it, but I do it. Because I reap the benefits of a peace of mind. My mind is quiet. My mind was never quiet up until I got sober 17 years ago. Now, when I was sober for those seven years.

Yeah, so I want to go there. So you go to college, you start bar, And then do you move back to Brooklyn? Are you living in Brooklyn the whole time? No, I went to Long Island, then I went to GW. I majored in drinking. I was going to be a lawyer. I chained myself to a White House gate in a pro-choice rally while under the influence.

I got arrested. Is there are photos of that? No, it was the 80s. There's no cell phone anything. Thank God. You know, but a pro-choice rally, but, you know, I really believe in women's rights to choose. But that was definitely fueled by alcohol. I mean, I was a shy, introverted, depressed, you know.

I didn't even know how to play games until I came to release. I mean, yeah, when I had the townhouse, we would do game night. But the way I was raised was, you know, you don't talk about your feelings. So when I got to college and I discovered alcohol and I'm in D.C., I'm going to run and lose, you know. I'm free for the first time of my life, you know. Scary. But it accelerated quickly. And then from D.C., I wasn't able to complete more than 12 credits in a two-year period. And my mom's like, I'm done. You're coming home. And are you blacking out every night? Are you, is it incremental? Or do you remember much of that time

in D. I'll be honest. You know, when I didn't remember a lot of pieces to my life, and I'm actually in therapy looking at this, it's when I wasn't drinking, you know? There's an entire sections of high school and growing up that I don't really remember, but the minute I had alcohol, it cleared the mind. It quieted the noise and the memory started. So for me, at that point in time, alcohol actually helped me. It helped me function. And I'd have a couple of blackouts, but not as bad as from 22 to 25.

And that's the thing I think alcohol is fight. That's why people make it to 35, 40, 45, 50 years old because they rely on those early days of drinking. Like, one, it was a lot of fun. And two, it was the superpower. I loved it. It made me better looking. Yeah. You know, I was able to talk to girls.

I was able to chain myself to offensive I wanted to and flex my muscles. Like, whatever it was that I wanted to do, alcohol gave me the power to do that. And then it's funny, you get sober and you go, like, talk to a couple people. And you realize you weren't fooling anyone. Right. You know, like you realize you actually, that's what I always laugh about. People are like, I'm shy to be sober and what are people going to judge me and think of me? I'm like, bro, have you ever seen yourself drunk?

Yeah, it's messy. I'm a messy drunk. I'll say it on, I'll say it in the world wide web. I'm a messy drunk with a Gucci bag and high heel shoes in a suit, you know, at a, at a, of course, of course. I mean, it was the whole thing, you know. I got bored from tavern on the green. No. Who gets bored from Tavern on the Green?

It was back in the day. I just had dinner there a couple weeks ago. It's good. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm back in, you know. But it was, I was running the National Invitational Tournament at the hotel I worked at, and I had gone there for the dinner. And I had a drink.

And because after I picked up that drink, you know, I was in Puerto Rico. It was harmless. You know, I'm in there at the top of my game. I have a two-bedroom condo, a brand-new car in the driveway. I'm working at a very prestigious hotel. I'm married to a Belgium tennis professional. I mean, there's not a cloud in the sky. And I'm at a wedding and it's a European wedding.

Yeah, I'm sober. I'm completely sober. No weed, no nothing, sober. But see, I was crazy. I wasn't drinking. And I'm at, and they talk about it. You know, that mental blank spot, right? That's suddenly.

And they're passing around the champagne. And I remember saying to my husband at the time, He's like, I have champagne. I said, oh, I can't. That's alcohol. He goes, this is not champagne. This is, this, this is not alcohol. This is champagne, you know, with his French accent.

And you know what? I had the untreated mind. And so it took that one glass of champagne. And for the next nine years, I'm white-knackling it. So you got sober at 25. I got sober at 25. So what was it? Yeah, rewind.

So you're, when do you make the first decision? To get sober. When my mother had all my things packed up into two suitcases and told me I either get sober or get the F out of her house. And that conversation was at 4 o'clock in the morning as I'm stumbling up the stairs. Well, what happened was, you know, when I drink, I'm unable to keep a job. I got fired from bartending jobs. And that's where I was.

I get involved with these men that I shouldn't be involved with, right? that perpetual state of loneliness, right? And so where do you go? And you can't afford to pay your rent and you can't get your shit together. You go home. And see, my mom had just asked my dad to leave probably a couple of years prior to that.

She definitely wasn't going to go through this with me. So that morning at 4 a.m., she's waiting for me. And she said, you get sober or get out. Two days later, I'm going to treatment. So you go to treatment the first time, you go back to live with mom and then you stay sober for seven. Fear. Fear kept me sober for seven years. Fear, fear, you know.

And up until this moment you're at this wedding at 32 and the Belgian tennis players, this is champagne. This is champagne. This is like ginger ale, you know? That's what I thought. Because when I stopped drinking at 25, I mean, I was up to like, you know, a liter of vodka, you know, 20 shots of scotch, martinis that were endless.

Just, just, I'm a real bad drinker. I'm such a bad drinker. I would go to the bathroom to throw up so I could go back to the bar to drink. And, you know, I came from a good family. You know, I was a professional, you know? But prior to that, at 25, I hadn't graduated college. I didn't know how to drive a car. I'm $25,000 in student loan debt, right?

I only know how to bartend. I mean, when my mom's, you know, and I realized that, when I was away in treatment for 32 days, that I had accomplished nothing, really, at the age of 25. When back in the day, by the time people were 25, they were like working, they had family. And so over the next seven years, I was obsessed with becoming someone.

So you put the drink down and your drug became money. Yeah, money, accomplishments, titles, award. Do you ever just, are you like, holy shit, how did I even get sober at 20? I don't know. I feel like people are getting sober younger, but. Well, I think people are getting sober younger. I mean, like I said, I probably would have gotten sober sooner, but I left my house. I disappeared.

Right. Right? From the age of 18 to 25, I literally did not live home. So they didn't know what I was doing. Right. But if you are living home, you know, if I lived home, my mom would have probably 70 treatment at 20 yeah I think it's crazy too like you you chose to leave home and one of the main questions I get when we're starting to engage families and their son or

daughter husband or wife is kind of running crazy they always want to know should I kick them out should I kick them out and I always go two ways with this like part of me is like it's not my kid so I'm never going to tell someone to kick their kid out I don't have children so for mothers especially I think it's an impossible task on the flip side of that like there's a certain level of toughness that is required to get to help someone gets over like the fucking party's over right either stop drinking or get out of here right and that was a little bit of my experience and I needed that shit you know I therapy's changing our world is changing I understand giving this wide birth I understand giving this really big door for people to

walk through but when we're at that point like we need someone the families have to draw some kind of you know, line in the sand. I mean, not maybe not as traumatic as, you know, you either stop drinking or get out because the guilt that you leave on a family member is huge. But I do think that in today's, you know, recovery industry, there's so many resources to educate the parents on what they should do. Because the truth of the matter is, until they put a stop to it, it continues. You know, when I had the sober house, I cut up all the cards, the credit cards. You know, I put them in the safe. They were allowed like $20 a day, you know, Brian Dole, and they were allowed $20 a day.

They would save their money to go get tattoos. I'm like, you know, but the parents were like, no, how could you take the credit card away from my son? Right. What if he needs? I'm like, what? What if he needs an eight ball of Coke? I mean, what are you asking me?

But in the same token, it was really important to everybody. educate the parents about, you know, you've got to stay firm. Yeah, you can love them without underwriting their drug habit. Exactly. It's like, you know, and it's a hard thing. I mean, these, the parents are getting tougher too for me. I think that as the world kind of continues to, in my opinion, like it's sicker. Parents have a harder job.

Yeah. And they, they want that control. They want that control. And like, you know, you take away their ability to. to, you know, fund their bank account and be able to see their transactions and spy on them in the way that they want, you know, they're going to get a little rattled. So, okay, so you're sober for the seven years. Any like, do you actually think to yourself, I'm going to stay sober the rest of my life? Are you into it? Like, tell me. Yeah, I'm arrogant. I got to be honest. I was

really, I really believed that, you know, when I saw people relapsing, I'm like, oh, my God, you're so weak-willed. I mean, the arrogance of me. Yeah. until it happened to me. And then here's the delusion. I thought I was going to come back the next day. You know, I have this glass of champagne. I literally drink for 35 hours straight. From the first drink.

From the first drink. From the first drink. Was it your husband? It was my husband. We smoked. Had he seen you drink? We went. Yeah.

No, we had never seen me drink. And, you know, at the end, he's like, you have a problem. After 35 hours. Yeah, but he was growing marijuana on the side of the rainforest. So, like, who has the. problem. I ended up divorcing him. And that's another story. But I, I, I, he worked, he was the tennis professional at the hotel I worked at. You know, and I thought, well, you know, he's my boyfriend and his visa ran out. So I don't believe in marriage. I really thought that I did

not believe in marriage. Because my, what I had seen of it wasn't very enticing. So I thought, why not? This will look good on my resume, right? It was about the resume. It really was about the trophy. He was a trophy husband, you know, and the job and getting the plaques and the awards. But that one glass of champagne, literally San Juan, Puerto Rico, my favorite place. I ran loose for 35 hours. Yeah, I had a nap here and there, but not really. Coke. Yeah, and then the next day, you know, you try to go back, you try to go back, you know. and do your day count, and it's the shame, the guilt. And then I was like, my head was like, I'm missing the time.

I'm, you know, it was about the time. And, you know, I would relapse for the next almost nine years. But it's amazing how from that first drink, the next two years in Puerto Rico, was sheer hell. Because I'd never driven drunk before. Tell me about that. Really tell me about that. I go back to that feeling. What does that look like?

It was unmanageability. It was a depression I had never experienced before in my life. It was living the double life, right? Hotel manager, hi, welcome, you know. And then I knew that as soon as I finished my shift and I was in banquets, you know, I even drank on the job, that I was going home to either pick up a bottle and bring it home. And I would pray that I would make it to work the next day, but I was definitely driving. And, but it hurts so bad that I had to stop.

And I would stop. I would get two weeks. I would white knuckle it. I'd go to the meetings. I was even going to meetings in Spanish. Like, I'm fluent in Spanish. I was, but it was like the magic was gone. And I just couldn't, you know, I was so full of shame and guilt.

You know, I thought I was a horrible person. But now I understand I was a very sick person. It's an illness. It's no power, choice, or control in my world. And it got so bad that, you know, I decided it's time to go. And I divorced the, the Belgium guy. And I ended up. Any idea where this guy is today?

No, I had him deported. Well, I didn't have him deported. I didn't show up for the interview. I know. I'm sorry, the only person I owe amends to was this one guy. You know, I didn't show up to the interview. you. I had divorced him, put an ad in the newspaper. That's what you do down there. If you can't find your husband, you could do that. And got divorced. But I already had the next guy lined up,

right? This one was a lieutenant commander in the Dutch Navy. Six foot six, blonde hair, blue eyes. Next thing I know, it flown in Amsterdam. I rented out my apartment. I quit my hotel job, and I moved to Amsterdam for the next three years. And I was drinking with this guy. And he, He drank pretty heavily, but not like me. And so within a year or two of us being together in Amsterdam, like he broke up with me. And I was ready to come home. But my flight was September 13, 2001.

Oh, wow. And there was nothing to come home to. So I stayed another year. But meanwhile, while I'm in Amsterdam. So 9-11 hits on the 11th, and you're at two days later you think you're coming home, 9-11 hits, and now you're kind of... Right. Which makes for good.

drinking, right? Victimhood, self-pity, look at me, my life sucks. But, you know, I met the most incredible colleagues, people that I worked with in the hotel. And they knew I was a bad drink of. Dawn, you have to smoke. Don't drink. Smoke. They would tell me because they knew that if I had a couple of drinks, someone would have to babysit me. And, you know, but I would throw myself into my work. I see this happened so many times with people at the sober house or the How's I had, people will focus on the job, the relationship, outside stuff, thinking it's going to help the inner condition. And so I would throw myself into, you know, 12, 14 hours shifts. Yeah.

And then one day, suddenly, like, I have a beer in front of me. And, you know, at the end, I stayed one more year and I thought, you know, I better get back to Brooklyn. because I'm not doing so good. I'm like 37 at this time. And I was under the delusion that if I got back to Brooklyn and got my old apartment back and went with my old friends

that I would be struck over. So at 37, are you like, is there ever a moment there where you're contemplating whether you want to live or not? No. Well, yeah. I mean, that was in Puerto Rico.

I actually have to say this. I never understood this, but alcohol really treats alcoholism. Right. That's what it does. There were plenty times when I had six months in Puerto Rico, driving home from work, six months sober, and I just wanted to take my car and drive it off a cliff or into a wall. And then thank God for alcohol, because the thought came to my mind,

why don't you have a drink and think about it? Yeah. Now, I didn't drive home sober that night, but I wasn't dead. Yeah. And so I had the same experience. experience in Amsterdam. I'd be on a bike, you know. It kept a feats, you know, and I'd be biking. And I'd think, you know, my God, what would it feel like not to be here anymore? And thank God for alcohol, because I'm still here. So yeah, yeah, definitely.

And is, so you come back to New York at 37. Is this Hell's Kitchen? Is this the? No, I come back. I move into Brooklyn Heights. My dad was gracious enough to give him his studio. I got a job back at the old hotel I was working at in Times Square. You know, by this time, I had a lot of international experience in hotels. I did the royal wedding for the King of Holland. I mean, I used to do events for like the Make a Wish Foundation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, but I got back to New York and, you know, I went back back to the meetings and stuff

and started counting days to the point where it was like Russian rule. I'd get the days and then I'd go out and they started to call me one day back dawn that was my nickname bouncing in and out in it out in and out yeah you know and I finally dawned on me like my deepest

deepest desire not to drink is not good enough for me to stay sober I have to do more right you know yeah the willpower thing keeps people drunk especially the high achievers right like you clearly had some success in your life and you could figure

some things out and make ends meet and get the job or the next job or the guy or whatever it was. But at the end of the day, the drinking thing, you can't outthink. No. There's no amount of willpower. None. There's no amount of holding on. And then you meet those people that are actually able to do it. They're fucking miserable. Yeah. They're crunchy. I call them crunchy. The drive drunk nasty. Nasty. They were me. And the seven years that I wasn't drinking, I was nasty, condescending. You know, I was a liar. I'd take your boyfriend. I wouldn't even think twice about it. But I was sober and I was under the delusion that I, you know, I was living a life. But eventually that lifestyle will bring you back to drinking.

Yeah. What does it look like right before you go back to the meetings? You're running around. I mean, is it, is, are you still going out or are you just isolation? No, no, I'm a, I'm a bar drinker. I'm literally a bar drink. I love O'Keeves on Court Street. Drugs? Drugs? No, No, no, no. Drugs? Well, we tested at the hotel, so not really. This last time coming back, maybe when I was younger, the Coke was a real big deal, but you know, coming back to New York, you know, and they would drug test and it wasn't really

my thing. I loved alcohol. Yeah. And I was like a very social drinker. So I would go from one bar, and my colleagues would go have two and they'd go home to their families. And I'd be like, oh, I'm having two. I'll see you tomorrow, and I would go to another bar and drink the way I wanted to drink.

I never understood that. Going these happy hours, and you look around. Yeah. And everyone would say bye. I'm like, six o'clock. Exactly. What do you mean you're going home? Yeah.

The night's just starting. Yeah. And every night it was 3 a.m. Yeah. Three, four, getting home. My doorman used to carry my lifeless body up to my apartment, open up the door, lie me on the sofa, on my son. on my side so I wouldn't vomit and die in my sleep that's that's the demoralization they talk

about that incomprehensible demoralization and even knowing that I couldn't stay sober at the end for longer than two days and we hide it I mean I had someone I had a woman write me a lot of people write me on social media and Instagram and sometimes people want one help and this woman who's, I'm not going to blow her identity, but she basically said, like, look, I've been pretty successful my whole life. Yeah. I was an athlete.

I've four kids now. I'm married to a wonderful husband. And I'm having eight plus drinks a day. Yeah. And no one knows. Right. She said, you're the first person I'm telling. Because I don't know,

and I don't know what to do about it. It's mind-blowing how good we are at drinking. Yeah. And how we can. do just enough to kind of keep people because for you man like yeah no one knew no one no so so one day one day back on when does one day back dawn turn into to sober dawn sober dawn so it was january 13th um my sobriety date's january 14th but uh someone i had seen 20 2007 2007 i got sober and until 17 and a half years yeah 17 and a half years yeah 17 and a half years

It's all. It's my lifestyle, you know? Look at the smile. It's my, it's my lifestyle. Because I'm, the mind is quiet. The spirit is a lie. This is the happiness that people, help people.

This is the happiness though. This is it. This is the shit that people see and are like, that's bullshit. I'm like, no, that's fucking real happiness that we get. It's called being high. There's a high. There's a drug high and alcohol high and then there's a sobriety high. Yes.

And it's available to anyone. Yeah. You just need to show up. Yeah. And, and I, Yeah, I can't turn it off. I can't turn it off. It's me.

It's who I was created to be. I mean, I've been, but I've done a lot of work over these last 16, 17 and a half years, you know, to get to this state of mind, right? But back then, it was January 13th. I was on, you know, and one day backed on, I'm two weeks sober. I get invited to a sober birthday party of someone who I knew since the 90s. who was sober for 12 years. She was sober for 12 years, but she was very, you know,

restless, irritable discontent. She was always depressed and upset. And then one day, because I never stopped going to meetings, I walked into the room and I saw her and she looked like I look now, like awake and alive. And so I asked her what she was doing.

And she told me. And so here it is on January 13th. I'm going to her sober birthday party and I'm just walking to the art train and I'm walking by O'Keeves Bar and Grill and suddenly I'm in there and I don't even need to order. They just need to see me

and my drink goes down and it's a gin and tonic out of a pint glass with few ice cubes just enough to chill it and splash a tonic I would drink them with a straw Now, again, don't remember how I got home, but what I do remember is when I came to the next day, I'm covered in blood.

By this time, my drinking was so bad and the vomiting that I was about 25, 30 pounds thinner than I am now. And I had the broken capularies. I mean, I was really, really sick, and a lot of makeup to cover this up. And I remember seeing the blood and cleaning it up like for the hundredth time and the head is pounding and the phone rings like a real phone. And I always say that that's the day I got sober was when I picked it up and it was this woman and she said to me, are you okay? And I said, you know, I'm dying and I can't stop. And the second thing, she said, can I help you? And literally, Zach, to the bottom of my toes, I said, please help me.

You know, please. That's the humility. That's the I don't know. Like you ask me, what do you know about sobriety? Well, I don't really know, but I can tell you what I did, you know. And that launched the surrender. And it's crucial, you know. I always tell people, you can't do this.

50% you can't do this 90% you got to go big or go home um but that was the day and i got to tell you in that moment i had a feeling when i showed but check it out three days later i show up to her house right it's like and the egos back yeah yeah yeah we forget and she told me she says drinking is not your problem yeah and i'm like really what is my problem she goes you're selfish and self-centered And I'm like, that's impossible. I'm in hospitality. Like, I'm thinking because I'm in hospitality management that I'm a nice person, that I'm friendly.

And she said, you never did anything for anybody else without having expectations of getting something in return. You don't give because you want to get. There's an outcome. There are motives. And so that launched a new way of living for me. I mean, it... She saved your life.

She saved my life. Is she... Yeah, yeah. We're still friends 30, 20, 28 years. We're friends. I have, you know, friends now that are sober 35 years. Because I came in in 1991. That's a crazy part about relationships, too.

I'm going to wipe my tears by you got me there. Is that they talk about the divorce rate, like 50%, right? And I think that, I think that's true in all relationships, really. Like, it's really hard to maintain any, like, most relationships end. Friends, lovers. I mean, Christ, you look around families. I mean, there's just, it's really hard. But in recovery, you hear about this, all the friendship of 30 years, friendship of 40 years.

My mom died and the church was filled with people in recovery. Like, we just show up. Yeah. We just show up for one another. And we actually don't want anything back. Right. And that's where the magic is. It's in the service.

It's in helping others. It's in the forgetting of oneself, right? Yeah. The more I focus on others, the more I go the extra mile. Yeah. You know, but first I have to get my house in order. I got to get rid of that stuff that taint, you know, It's like tints my glasses.

Like I don't see clearly. If I have a head full of resentment or anger and tolerance or, you know, and I'm in a twisted mood, you're not going to get the best out of me. Yeah. You know, my personality is going to change. So I stay on top of that. That's what I do to this day. I stay on top of that.

That doesn't mean I don't make mistakes. I make a crap load of mistakes. But I am always willing to go back and clean it up. which is very different from the way I was at. It's like, you don't like it. You know, F you, you know, the tough chick. Yeah, in my conflict, like, that's the thing that I deal with a lot is, like, I'll, yeah, I'll be willing to look at my shit and own it.

But then I'll get resentful when the person I'm talking to isn't willing to look at their shit and own it. Because I'm like, what the, you know, I just did it. Yeah. And that's the whole thing that you're kind of, your friend was talking about early on. Like, you do all these things because you want cookies back. You want someone like, Don, you're killing it. Don, you're the best. Don, you save my life.

And there's an element to this stuff that, like, we get high off that shit. Like, we want to be told that we help someone because that means we're fulfilling this contract we have with the world where this gift was given to me. And now hopefully I'm giving it to someone else. Right. Which you've done over, I mean, over these past 17 years. talk to me a little bit about being a woman in sobriety like that experience maybe some of the challenges that for you that didn't exist for men or some things that you've seen over the years I'm because I feel like you know for whatever reason well you know I really

believe that women as women in recovery I mean family members expect us to get you know shape up or ship out like we're supposed to get sober faster we're the caretakers of the family they might not necessarily recommend um someone go to sober living because they're needed at home um i also i also don't think that there are a lot of women out there that are willing to go the extra mile you know what i mean like be so there's tons of them don't get me wrong There are a lot of people, a lot of women that are in sobriety that go the extra mile. I mean, they definitely do. But I don't think that women, I'll speak for myself, are as honest about our feelings to the right person.

You know what I mean? Where we withhold information because we take on the role of caretaker, right? Like the fact that in the house we have women that have kids and the husbands taking care of, them. I mean, Bravo. I get so excited when I see that there's a woman in, you know, continuing her recovery at the sober house and she's a mom and her husband's giving her that time to go through a process so that when she comes back in two months, three months, four months, she's an amazing mom. Not to say that she wasn't before. I think we downplay. I think Women downplay, you know, a lot of things that, you know, men are just, this is me.

Well, in this weird way, I think kids can keep moms drunk because they refuse to leave the nest to go get the help that they need. And a lot of that is true. Like, they want to be mom. They're put on this planet. They believe that their purpose is to be a mother. Right. What they fail to recognize when I'm speaking to them is that they're not doing any favors

to anyone. Yeah, self-care. self-love and it's a little selfish in that aspect me first you know it's like they say put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put it on your loved one yeah yeah where we know are we flying time what's our deal great nice this is great don you're i'm like lost in this conversation okay so women some of the pitfalls the kids not talk about their feelings as much is that why you've kind of dedicated your life to helping women? I mean, I feel like that is your legacy, right?

I mean, for those of you guys that Dawn is underplaying kind of her career, if you're listening to this, I mean, she got sober. She ended up starting a business that was successful here in the city, in Brooklyn, in her home borough, where she, you know, really blazed a trail for a lot of us here that provide services in New York City. It was unheard of. Yeah, it was unheard of. It was unheard of what you did with the, with kind of.

of the high-end, highly structured, transitional living for people coming out of treatment. You know, I remember when I, so I'm 13 in August, so I'm a little bit behind you. But when I was in sober living in Brooklyn at a place down the road, like it was this kind of the OGs, the Joe Stranks. So you talk to me about like when you decide I'm going to start to work in recovery and the balance between being in recovery and working in recovery and all that. Right. Well, it was, you know, I'll say it was my, my second. an ex-husband, just to clarify that.

You know, he was working for Joe Scheng. He was over there. And Joe, Joe, I lost touch with Joe. Joe saved my life. No, he's tremendous. I mean, he opens up that, you know, the loft, and it was unheard of. I mean, there wasn't any high-end sober living in New York City. Yeah.

I mean, there just wasn't. So people were going to treatment, spending 30 days there, three months, whatever, coming home, and then being on their own in their apartments. So the community structure. So when my ex decided he's like, I'm going to open up a sober living, there was just something about that. It was like, oh, my God, a hotel for my people, you know what I mean? I was excited. I was behind it 100%.

I got my mom excited in it. She loaned me money. I gutted a three-story townhouse that I still owned to this day. We turned it into the townhouse on sex. And it was structured kind of like the loft was with the cook and, you know, it was meetings. and we would do a fellowship and we'd, you know, kind of like what you're doing here at release.

And there's a lot of people you help during those times. It's like 85 men. I lived with 85 men in and out of the house over the five-year period that it was man. That's right. Yeah. And the thing that I think, I know you do it not for the cookies,

but like what I know about those 85 men and some of the people that have worked with you is they've changed the course of recovery here in New York. city and a lot of those people probably don't come back to you and thank you and acknowledge you because when you're that early in sobriety you never want to thank the providers right but like they're out there doing good shit in the world a lot of these people who live there Brian Dolan who we had on the podcast and he's a guy that's crushing yeah love Brian love Brian yeah they call me mama doc yeah you know I had a house full of of young men I mean

there were 20 25 heroin addicts I had some older clients we became so popular we you know my ex opens up the penthouse which was three people blocks down and we grew and we flourished and um you know unfortunately my ex and i split up because it's hard we lived in the building so we actually lived there and i don't recommend anyone live in a sober house for five years but you know when that time was over i turned the building into a sober living for women so the following two and a half years it was primarily for women i don't want to dig too much on the relationship because I don't care about the details but I just I'm curious because I think it's something that you know we deal with in sobriety's breakups and heartache and

how you how you navigated that especially like you're in business with this person well it was hard I mean I got to tell you if it wasn't for inventory if it wasn't for you know mentors spiritual spiritual mentors saying you have to pray for the guy pray for the guy I mean I was so angry because I was so hurt. You give time, time, and you do the work. You get rid of the resentment. You put it in its proper, you know, light. You bring it into the light.

You bring that anger into the light. I don't regret one second of that relationship. I learned so much. Together, it was unbelievable what we did. You know, we helped so many people. I could have no way have done it without his help and vice versa

and we were helping these men it's incredible I get text on Mother's Day they're married now they have kids they have businesses you know and it comes out of the clear blue

and I'm always humbled to think that like I'm their second mom you know or the older ones like they're sending me photos of their kids in high school and these were boys these were like mommy daddy getting divorced, daddy can't stop drinking, one kid was five, one kid's four. One started in college

and the other one's a senior. It's the magic, but, you know, and then I switched it to women. And I found out that wasn't, you know, that's why I'm so blessed to be at release. Because it really takes a village with the women. And I love the fact that at release, the women have the clinical piece, the case management, the food, the programming. We go out and we do things. things. We do checking in the morning. I started to do meditation Mondays. I mean, that's the crazy. So, you know, this is the crazy. It's like, it's like, imagine sitting in your office and I'm like sitting there working and fucking Michael Jordan calls and says like, hey, I just want to come work shifts for you. Like, I just want to be a coach. I'm like, Dawn, what the fuck are you talking

about? And you're like, Zach, I'm done. Yeah. I don't want to, I don't want to run the business. No. I don't want to run the house. Like, I want to help women. I was like, this is one of my favorite that's exactly it. That's exactly it. That was the thing. I was meditating. It was like called Zach. And I'm like, because, you know, again, and I say this, if you're new in sobriety or you're getting sober, find your people. We should make t-shirts. Find your peeps. Find them. And I needed you guys. You needed me, but I needed you. I am surrounded by some incredible colleagues. And here, you know, I look around and I look around and I, I'm in awe and I learn.

See, this is the thing. I get to learn from you. Yeah. You know? And that's why community is so important. I don't need to have all the answers. Yeah. So I'm grace to be, you know, here with you.

And because it takes a village and we need people like us to go out in the trenches and say, hey, listen, you've been having a hard time. You can't get off the heroin. and you can't get off the alcohol, but let's do this. And then be the light, right? We're the light. Well, yours are just so valuable because I think there's a lot of women that live with us and it's hard early on. Sometimes it's hard to get out of bed.

Sometimes it's hard to get dressed and shower. And staff, like sometimes people that are new to this work, they take it personal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's like, yeah, I do humor. Don't let me come up these stairs. You know? Do you remember when you were 12 days sober, You, like, hop it out of bed, going to your workout, shout.

Like, no, it was a miracle for you to get downstairs, drink a glass of water, and have breakfast. Yeah. But I meet them where they're at. Yeah. Right? With a little humor, some grace. Oh, they love you.

They love you. Compassion. What's the hardest thing you've dealt with in your sobriety? We're getting close to the end here. What's the hardest thing in 17 years that your sobriety helped you get through? Burying. someone. You know, either it's loved ones. Like my first two years of sobriety, I buried my dad. Then eight months later, I buried my grandmother. And then two months after that, I buried my uncle. And so

those were my three most favorite people in my family. And then after that is having a mother call me up and say, you know what? My son was sober when he was with you and he adored you. Can you do his eulogy. Yeah. And if I didn't have that, that, that strength, that inner strength, that sobriety will bring when you do certain things, I could never do that, you know, and it's, you know, unfortunately, I've buried a few people. Yeah, we both have.

And it's hard. And I think that that, I mean, me, I put me less. I have no problems. That's why I'm high all the time. But when I have to, you know, and that's why I continue, I continue this work, right? And what do you tell the young lady or the mom of three kids out there right now that's listening to this and can't stop drinking? You know, there's a way out. Let us help you, right?

Just call us. Let's just have a conversation. don't even need to do anything come meet me for coffee you know yeah for me it's that surrender when you when you were telling that story there yeah you know when your mom said get out two days later and then it's that surrender that letting go that like yeah I'm pretty good at a lot of things but when it comes to drinking I stink yeah two of us I'm messy messy Yeah Yeah

And life today is good It's beautiful You're happy I'm happy You're sober I have dreams I love coming to work I don't even see it as work

It's my purpose Yeah This is my purpose now Yeah Well I think it's important I think it's important For women to hear this conversation Like

There's hope There's hope I'm nine years of relapsing in the rooms with the therapist yeah yeah i mean i think that whole thing that's like my one yeah i think sobriety time is important to acknowledge the milestones yeah and the victories and the wins on the flip side of that i think sobriety time when you lose it can be lethal like you lost that seven years lost and then you stay drunk for nine because you just didn't have the humility to

right to kind of put your tail between your legs and say I need help again

right and it's asking I need help you know and today in recovery I ask for

help all the time yeah there's no shame in asking for help yeah

so yeah well Don I love you I appreciate this conversation I just

think that it's so eye opening and real and authentic and that's the kind of shit you get

from people like me and you I hope right is that like we just we've learned to live a way where we have our word we lean into that we try not to care what people think right because telling the truth and just being honest is so much easier than you know having to wake up every morning and try to remember what who I told what to and how I'm going to clean up the next thing it's just that freedom yeah it's it's I have my best life is now yeah I'm living my best life right now yeah yeah so that's all for this episode dawn yeah I mean like just a legend I I'm so appreciative that you're here I hope people got something out of this I know I did like it helped me get another day sober for sure yeah and I see like grace and Kathleen lying

in the cut over there watching this episode like hanging on to every word who are yeah the women behind the scene of the Zach Clark show. So you're helping people. Just, you know, like I always say, keep going. Keep going. Definitely. Keep going. Yeah. Thank you, Zach. I love you. All right. See you. Bye.