The Zac Clark Show - How Far Is Too Far? Alex Honnold on Risk, Mortality, and the Cost of Greatness

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

Alex Honnold doesn’t just climb mountains—he defies them. The legendary free solo climber (scaling sheer rock faces without a rope or safety equipment) and star of Free Solo, the Academy Award-winning documentary, joins The Zac Clark Show for a deep dive into the psychology of risk, obsession, and resilience. Alex opens up about his all-or-nothing mentality, the dangers and discipline of climbing, and why he’s never touched alcohol. He, Zac, and Jay explore the parallels between extreme sports and recovery—how both demand total commitment, the power of consistency, and the fine line between passion and self-destruction.But what happens when the stakes shift from personal ambition to family responsibility? Alex reflects on fear, mortality, and the risks he’s willing—and unwilling—to take now that he’s a husband and father. From free soloing to social media, spirituality, and the pressures of unwanted fame, this conversation goes far beyond the wall into the mind of someone who has quite literally made it to the mountaintop.Connect with Zachttps://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclarkhttps://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release:[phone]releaserecovery.com@releaserecovery

All right. So our next guest here is an inspiring one. Again, Alex Honnold, one of my favorites, a professional climber known for his unbelievable and breathtaking free solo climbs, which basically means he climbs mountains without any safety equipment. Alex really shot to recognition when he was filmed during his climb of El Capitan, a 3,000 foot high wall in Yosemite National Park. That climb was then turned into an academy award-winning documentary called Free Solo. Go watch it. In addition to all of his climbing work, he also started the Honnold Foundation, which funds organizations with innovative solutions to new energy sources and marginalized communities. You're going to love this one. All right, so welcome back to the Zach Clark Show. Very special guest today that Lee needs little introduction, Alex Honnold, the star of Free Solo. He just spoke at the conference we're having here in Las Vegas, which is his hometown. Alex welcome to the show thanks for having me I don't know anything about the show I'm excited to see where we go we're we're gonna go places probably not exciting

as as exciting as some of your adventures but we are we are here and the irony here is our our show or our conference my work is around substance abuse you know I'm a recovering drug addict and alcoholic and during your talk you just mentioned the irony of never doing a drug never drink or not not really being to that world is that because you have no interest is is is is is is rock climbing your drug like I'm that that's where I'm starting so curious about that yeah it's partially because I've never had that much interest it's partially also because I knew there's a it'd be a tricky path for me because I'm

very bad with moderation and when I'm into something I'm really freaking into something and I go big and there's certain things that I'm like I probably just shouldn't go big in in that you know like I like to joke with friends that I just haven't started drinking yet, but when I do, I'm going to really start, you know, I'm, like, kind of joking about being old and, like, drinking red wine or whatever, but I'm also kind of like, there's a kernel of truth in that. I was sort of like, oh, it's probably better I don't start. Unbelievable. And what age did you start climbing?

I started climbing when I was 10. 10 years old. And also, it's not totally true to say that I've never done anything because I've taken sips of a thing. You know, people have obviously, like, offered me drinks and I've taken a sip here and there. Part of it's that I've never liked the taste to alcohol, and I never, I didn't go to college, so I never had quite the social, you know, push to get over that distaste. And also, I hate carbonation, so I don't like bubbles, like not like bubbly stuff.

And so then that's a further impediment to drinking a lot of alcohol or, like, drinking beer or stuff like that. I'm just like, oh, I think it's gross. I don't like it. And I just never quite overcame. You know, I feel like a lot of people, like, didn't like it, but then they're in college and they're forced to, and then they start to like it, and then they like the way it makes feel or whatever, and I just, like, never overcame the hurdles.

In the climbing culture, like, because I'm imagining, it's a lot of, of people who are you know have to really be gung ho about it do you is alcohol or or substances is that ever a like a a world inside of that people that you've known oh yeah substance use is very common i mean there's tons of i mean in the 70s and 80s like climbing culture drug use is big deal like very countercultural like you know hippies stone master stuff like LSD very common um and then modern stuff is probably more around like you know mushroom and weed and whatever but yeah i mean substance abuse has always been a big part of maybe not abuse but substance use has been a big part of climbing and alcohol i mean geez you know yeah climbers

definitely know how to cut loose in their own ways the thing i'm thinking about here is so so for the listeners if you if you don't know Alex's story it's extremely inspiring um which kind of culminated in this 3,000 foot free solo right am i using the right? am i using the right language where you basically climbed the face of this mountain attached to nothing you just walked up to this face and and climbed it correct that's yeah that's with years of training and practically you know all that but yeah basically on that day i just walked up and climbed a thing it's crazy no but like did you that was an idea that came to you jimmy chin he's a climber uh and and so when you first got thrown that idea of let's was it let's film this experience of you

you climbing El Capitan? No, no. So it's actually really good luck, the timing of the film. The film Free Solo came about. Basically, Jimmy and Chai, the co-directors of the film and friends of mine, approached me. I would do a feature film project. And they didn't know anything about El Cap.

They just wanted to do a feature film project on me and the climbing I was doing and whatever. And by sheer coincidence, that was like the exact same time that I had finally decided that I was going to put personal effort into free selling Al Cap. I was like, this is my thing. Because I've been dreaming about it for seven years or something at that point. And I'd kept hoping that it would just kind of happen in a way that I would drive into Yosemite.

I'd look at the wall and be like, this is the year. Like, now it looks easy. And after seven years of it never looking easy, I kind of realized that it was never going to look easy. I was going to have to do all the work and just find out if it was possible. And then they approached me like right at that same time that I decided like, this is the year I'm going to start like actually doing the work. And I was like, oh, perfect.

Because if it's a film thing, then it's, you know, in a way, it's like an accountability or somebody like help you hold you accountable to this like project that you want to do anyway so then it was like really good synergistic time we just started working on this project if there's no film do you do it yeah i mean i was aspiring to do it either way but the thing is i mean there there are a couple things going on that are sort of like more subtle than what you see in the film so one thing is that to do the prep to free solo cap there's a ton of labor involved like carrying ropes to the summit of the wall and then repelling in and then after you're repelling you have to pull all your ropes back up and put them away

which means it's like, you know, sometimes hundreds of pounds of gear that you're moving around. This is the prep. Yeah, this is all the, like, working on it. And so if I was going to freestyle El Cap totally by myself, I would still have to do all that same prep work. I'd still have to carry all the ropes up there and do that, but I'd be doing it all totally around myself. You know, like, that's a lot of work. It's like really hard. It's tiring.

It just takes a long time. And then, moreover, if you're doing it totally by yourself, anybody else in Yosemite, and, you know, L.CAP is a popular wall. Like, and there's a road underneath it. People just go into the meadow and they watch people climb with binocos and stuff. basically if I'd spent a couple weeks by myself going up and down an L-Cap it would be super obvious that I'm hoping to free-stall oil cap and I was like I want to be a little more discreet and spend the time that I need and in some ways the film project surprisingly was actually a really good cover for the stuff we were doing

because every time climbers are like what are you guys doing up here you're like oh we're shooting this thing for National Geographic and they're like sick about the national parks and you're like yeah you know you're like whatever you don't have to be too specific about it but you're just like we're up here doing a film project and so then it kind of makes sense that you're up on the wall day in and day out for weeks at a time and they're hanging on the wall with cameras you know filming you climbing preparation and also when you actually did the actual climb right and they're using drones like no drones because it's the national parks it's illegal oh right but yeah so they're just up

on the wall going up and down with me and actually and so that was part of the reason that I want to do the film was because a lot of the prep work is actually easier when you have somebody with you like the rappelling in and dealing with all the ropes is kind of easier as two than with one and so then it kind make sense because the person with you is the filmmaker and he's like filming the whole process but in this case all the people that worked on that film are all elite climbers as well and so they're basically just up there helping you do the thing and yeah so it's like like one of the main camera guys this got mike shafer the two of us repelled al cap together like a dozen times you know and like each time i'd be working on different sections he'd be filming that preparation but the but the reality is it's

the two of us hiking to the summit of the wall together and then repelling the whole face together you're like that's a tremendous amount of effort you know it's just a lot of work and it like help to have a team for it i'm i'm fascinated by by the psychology here and when i look at people who are at the highest level right i think about a michael jordan or whoever whoever it might be right the greatest athletes of all time the greatest businessman of all time they're all they all have this thing um where they're almost fearless, I guess, in their craft or they're obsessed. I mean, can you take us through, like, do you think you are psychologically different than most, or do you just believe that you have this extreme purpose and passion in your life that you're willing to do anything to get

to the highest level? I mean, it's... No, I don't think I'm that different. I think in some ways, I've been really lucky that I'm really into one thing that I love and I've pushed hard at it forever, because, you know, I have some friends who are more generalists, you know, they're like pretty good a bunch of different things but I'm like not really that good at anything else but I'm like but I've gotten quite good at the one thing that I love to do so I don't know I mean I don't know it's just one of those things but what do you like I mean for I just I have so many things like in my head because like it's definitely just not one of those things you know what I mean like you you are like a phenomenon you know like I was an athlete Zach was an athlete like it was

no so I think you know there were what nine billion people on earth yeah and yeah everybody has their own little thing and I think for whatever reason I was dealt to a certain set of cards and and I've played them well and I like them and I'm kind of like yeah you know with nine billion people you're going to get some freaking weirdos doing weird things and it just like works out for them and I don't know it's just just good luck in a lot of ways well I was going to ask you do you think there's a luck that plays into this and it sounds like you sort of have you absorb that and you're like yeah this is part of the equation and I'm just sort of moving through this and this is what i do has there ever been a time when you're like you know

what i don't i don't want to get out of fucking bed and hang by the you know the wood yeah that's called the rest of everyone's tomorrow you're like i just can't fucking train today are we allowed to curse yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah if they're like i don't like we can edit it out like but like i just i want like i'm just i am fascinated man like it's it's exceptional really no i think you know but what you're seeing is the result of basically 30 years of consistent effort and you're saying that is incredible but the day to day each day you wake up being like man I could have done more I should have tried harder like maybe I should have done it with a little more intensity maybe I should have eaten better like maybe I shouldn't

have you know should have more and I'm constantly like man I should have been training more in different ways or harder smarter you know like I only see the things I could do better you know whereas but when you're just looking big picture with the results you're like that's amazing you're kind of like yeah but it could have been even better if I worked harder but I just didn't quite have the motivation and I didn't you know like that's I don't know I just like this word so so so for me right like at 27 years old I'm a heroin addict I'm smoking crack I'm I'm out of my mind right so I needed to make this change in my life which is where I got sober right and so I knew from that moment forward after going to rehab that I had to do one thing every day which was which was to stay

sober and by doing that and building that consistency in my life I was able to build something that was that was pretty cool like how much of this journey that you've been on do you attribute to just being consistent day in and day out and and not like waving off of of the path that you talked about the path all the time in your talk yeah I mean I think a lot of that is just consistency and I think that for me I've been lucky that it's easy for me to stay consistent in this thing because I love doing the thing so much. I mean, I imagine that in recovery is much harder because you're trying to stay consistent

in something that you don't necessarily love or I don't know, you know what I mean? Like, it's just less clear that, like, the path is the easy path or whatever. But no, I think for me, I'm just, I don't know, I just love doing the thing. It's just wild to me, man, though, because, like, I'm a, like, I'm a marathoner, right?

Like, I run 15 marathons. I've had this journey as a marathon runner where, like, I started out as a four and a half hour guy and now I'm trying to break three hours, but there are so many people that are so much faster than me. And so it becomes like a personal vision quest because if I start to look at the other people, I'm screwed. But you're at the highest level.

Like there's really no one better than you. Well, no, I'm at a high level in free soloing. But in all other aspects of climbing, I'm, you know, elite, but not at the highest level. You know what I mean? And it's a lot like it's maybe not quite akin to your marathon, but I'd be, you know, if say a global standard for marathoning is aspiring to sub two hours, you know, I'd be running like a 2.15 marathon where you're like,

oh, that's a really good marathon, but it's not close to elite, you know, like, and I couldn't run sub two even if I tried my hardest. And so that's the thing in climbing, you know, I'm a really good climber. Like, I can climb at a high level, but I can't run the equivalent of a sub two hour marathon in climbing, but I can go ultra running or whatever. You know, like that's the thing is that a lot of this free-soling stuff is almost more akin to ultra-running like a hundred-mile races, things like that. It's almost like a whole different thing on trail that, like, people don't do. Or like sky running, you know what I mean? Like running ridges and like kind of extreme European running races, things like that. I don't know. I mean, sports analogies start to

fail at a certain point, but it's like, you know, I'm good at this particular thing that I like to do, and obviously I'm a good all-around climber, but I'm by no means the best at any other aspect of climbing. Right, but you, but and just to just to be clear, like free soloing means that you're climbing with no, no rope, it's just completely, just you, naked hands and you're just pulling yourself up. Ideally, I have clothes on, but yeah. You have clothes on. Well, I'm sure you got some crazy stories, but, uh, I mean, when you, when you were showing in the movie where you, you have that little ridge where you have to basically put half of your body inside of the mountain to, like, pull yourself up, and then you come out

of that, and you're like, your body feels like jello, and then you got to keep going. Are you, in that moment, are you like, all right, I need two minutes of recovery, and then I go back in or is it like every time you come out of that moment you're like I don't know how my body's going to feel today but I'll just react and then I'll continue on no I mean a lot of the I mean with climbing El Cap a lot of it is pacing where it's like I'm just climbing it away at such a pace that it's feel sustainable you know like as I climb it when I get to the next move I'll feel good on that move like basically I just kind of cruise along at a steady pace the whole time so ideally you know there's never any like I have to take a break or have to you know there were places where I

stopped at like ate and drank in a few places and I like peed off ledges here and there like any time you have to pee and I tightened and loosen my shoes quite a lot which is the whole thing in climbing because climbing shoes are very tight and relatively uncomfortable so on easy terrain I'd keep my shoes kind of loose and then on hard terrain I have them lay super super tight um kind of like ski boots or something where if you're trying to like really do something you have super tight high performance footwear anyway and so you know there's a lot of like modulation to my effort in that way but generally you're just cruising up this 3,000-foot wall, you know? Yeah.

But with free-selling it, I was trying to maintain a steady pace and, like, good momentum, you know, because you're like, I'm trying to do something, I'm trying to do something hard, and you want to sort of, I mean, a lot like running a race where you just want to, like, feel good the whole time, and so you want to maintain a consistent pace. But there's this humility about you, and I'm trying to, and if I seem rattled almost, it's because I just watch you give this hour-long talk, you had the whole room captivated, you're showing clips from this movie that are mindbending. I mean, it's just mind bending.

And to you, it's just like, yeah, I just, I worked really hard and I did it. And then someone will ask you a question about inspiring others, and you're kind of just like, well, that's nice. You know, like there doesn't seem to be any ego or I'm trying to put a word to it, but where does that come from? So there is some ego. I mean, obviously, I'm proud of the things that I've done. I put a lot of effort into it. I'm glad that people appreciate it and whatever, you know, because I've literally spent my whole life working to this. And I'm like, oh, glad that other people think that's cool because, you know, I put a lot of work into it.

But part of it's just, I don't know, I'm just doing my thing. If people are psyched, great. If people aren't psyched, you're like, that's fine. I'll just keep doing my thing. Is that a typical mentality among climbers, you think? Or, no, you can't generalize like that. A little bit. And I think particularly, I mean, I started climbing 30 years ago and climbing was very different than much more niche, much more fringe.

You know, climbing now is relatively mainstream. that you can go to a climbing gym in any city and speed climbing in the Olympics yeah yeah actually in sport climbing too so you know there were two medals in the Olympics I went to the Olympics this summer actually to do some interviewing and stuff and yeah it was incredible but anyway I mean climbing has grown up a lot but I mean it's always been a pretty fringe niche thing like you have to be a particular kind of person to choose to take risks in the mountains by yourself you know and so I don't know I think it there's always been a lot of intrinsic motivation around climbing like no one's pressuring you to go climb it has to come from within and you have to be into it

has it been corporatized in the sense of people coming oh all right like you know this guy's got a certain presence online or social media we we sell this has that is that affected have you seen that effect i think that's been the fear especially with olympic climbing and all that you know there'll be more money in the sport i mean personally i think it's great because it just um even if it means like more people sell out or whatever it just kind of means that more people can make a living through climbing and it means that because I mean a lot of my friends not just professional climbers but a lot of my friends make a living through the peripheral climbing world like through coaching through being nutritionist through whatever you know people who are very serious climbers who would never be at the

highest level like getting paid to rock climb but now they can get paid to be a coach or to you know teach people like do whatever you know I'm kind of like I'm glad that the climbing ecosystem has grown quite a lot just because 30 years ago it was like is literally impossible to make a living rock climbing You know, like, when I grew up, I didn't think that I could be a professional climber. Like, that didn't exist. It wasn't a thing. Did you know any climbers? No, I mean, my parents were both professors that just took me to a climbing gym.

And I was just, like, climbing, you know, shredded tire floors, like, padded whatever. You know, I was just a little kid. You know, I had an old sister who climbed with me a tiny bit when we started, but she'd never, she got into soccer and, like, ran and stuff. So, athletic. She was athletic, too. No, not really. No. I mean, you know, she just, I don't know.

Both our parents were, like, professors. What they teach? No, my mom taught French and my dad taught ESL, like English as a second language. Okay. But they both taught community college into the house. So at 39 years old, you're sitting here, you're a professional climber. I'm assuming that's how you make your livelihood. And are you worried about a future?

Like, are you worried about what's next for Alex Honnold? Or is this you're just going to ride this wave in terms of providing for your three and one-year-old child and your family? And, I mean, is this? No, yeah, I'm not that word. I mean, at this point, we're doing fine, we save, you know, I could, I mean, if, like, if I had to, I could just write out some of my sponsorships, just, like, write out some of the contracts and just, I don't know. And if it all fell apart, I'd get a job, you know, like, I'd, I don't know, I mean, I did one year of university, I was going to study to be an engineer. I'm sort of, like, you know, going back to college at 39, 40, it's, like, not that crazy. I could always, like, learn something and do something else.

But now, now if it all fell apart, I'm sure I'd get into business. or something, you know, I'd start something or work with somebody or who knows what. You said something that I thought, in the movie that I thought was really interesting. You said I was, I think I was dreaming this idea for like seven years. You know, I just feel like most people, they have ideas and they don't execute them. Or they don't spend that much time relating. Like, I write, right? And coming up with an idea is such an unconscious and conscious process that could take a long time to where a story starts to kind of come into place.

And you're like, I feel connected enough to this. So I'm going to spend hours and hours and hours, you know, putting this down. Do you remember the first time, did you always, was your mind always working that way as a kid? Like when you would have an idea and then you would live with that? and then you would eventually accomplish it that's an interesting question I don't know I mean yeah I mean I think really what you're asking kind of gets to the heart of the creative process in climbing yeah which I don't know is interesting to think about because I think climbing can often be kind of split between the artistic side I mean a lot of climbers

view themselves as artists you know where they're like painting on a canvas of the rock and it's like this beautiful artistic expression but there's also a whole sort of engineering side of climbing because a lot of climbing is probably solving and like figuring out how to do something. And a lot of climbers come at it more from sort of the engineering type side. I personally have always come at climbing more from sort of the athletic side. I think because I grew up as a kid going to a climbing gym and I always saw climbing more as an athletic pursuit rather than like a artistic or spiritual pursuit. But it is interesting your question around creativity because, you know, I grew up, I was really into Legos and I

love like building stuff and just creating and whatever. And, you know, I thought I was going to go to university be a civil engineer and you know I was always interested in like building things and just kind of yeah creating and and yeah and I've actually sort of talked about this in the past with some friends that I think one of the underappreciated aspects of being a professional climber is coming up with good ideas because really if you're a professional climber you're getting paid because you're doing things that people haven't done before and that means thinking up stuff that people haven't done before and sometimes that means thinking slightly outside the box I mean sometimes that's obvious because you just take what other people have done and you just do it a little harder or like

a little faster, a little better, like, you know, better style, whatever. And so some of those ideas are obvious, but some of them are pretty freaking weird, you know, like, or seem kind of fringe at first. But then, you know, some ideas just grab hold. I mean, because you can go through tons of ideas, and then certain ones will really stick with you. You're like, oh, and I think the best ones are the ones that you sort of initially reject is impossible. And then you're like, no, but maybe it is possible. And then you're like, oh, I think it is possible. Then you're like, fuck it is possible like and then you feel obligated you're like you have to do it because you're like oh i don't know i think there's a whole no you said it yeah and then you're like you know when i was

when i watched it and watch it's like it's like luke skywalker man like you know in the van like off on another planet you know like doing the things chopping wood carrying water every day with the mountain just outside of the van and like i'm coming for vader and i'm just like it's incredible yeah yeah i mean you're star wars fan yeah yeah Yeah, no, I got the whole, I got the whole metaphor. What else do you like, dude? Like, like, like, you climb. Like, what is your other, like, do you have any?

Is there other? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I watch movies. I like Star Wars, you know, it's like a... Are you in the sci-fi fantasy or, or, like, what... Yeah, yeah, I watch things, you know, love the Witcher. I don't know, that's a fantasy show. Yeah.

It's like, that's awesome. No, yeah, I watch stuff, you know, hang out in my wife and chill. Like, I do all the other sort of, like, outdoor sports casually. You know, like, trail run a little. I can, like, mountain bike all ride. ski poorly but enjoy it um you know all those kinds of things i mean i like the thing is you know all of those to me are like casual hobbies yeah because i spend all my time climbing like i love climbing and i also i also love being basically it's really hard and it's particularly hard for me to be

a good climber um like you know i have friends who are just more physically gifted where like they're just naturally super super strong and i'm that's not me and so for me to be good at rock climbing it just takes a lot of effort, like I have to train a lot, I have to climb all the time, I have to put in the effort. And even then, I'm still worse in many aspects of climbing than many of my friends. And you're sort of like, God, it's so frustrating that you can like work hard at something for 30 years and it still be worse than your random buddy who works a 9 to 5 and you're just like, god damn. But, you know.

Well, then was there ever any resentment in the, in the, like in the, you know, in the climbing world about, you know, after this, I mean, did it win the Oscar? Yeah, yeah, I mean, one and not, like, you know, and then with that comes your entire. world just being swept up in that yeah thankfully i've never had to deal with that too much because even climbers who are stronger than me and like better climbers than me none of them look at the film free soul and think i could do that way better you know and i'm like oh and and you know there might be a few people in the world who maybe could do something like that if they tried hard enough or if they had the motivation or whatever but none of them have you know tried or none of them care

but even i don't know yeah everybody sort of respects that and respects the effort in the process and i don't know the respect wins yeah i do I've always been kind of grateful for that, that, you know, even, like, young upstart kids that are really freaking strong and who are for sure the future of climbing or whatever, they can still see the film be like, that's cool, like, respect. You know, like, no one's talking trash or anything, because you're like, that's, I mean, it's hard, you know?

It's hard, man. There's this thing looming for me, which, as I get older, around death, right? Like, around this idea that we can't avoid the grave and how are we going to spend our time? And I would assume even on training days when you're going out and getting work in, right? Like something can go wrong, right?

Like even on climbs that are not that. In some ways, you're more likely to have accidents on like the normal, boring days, you know? So what is your relationship to fear and what is your relationship to death? I mean, well, I was kind of mentioned this in the chat that we had earlier. I mean, I think with death, I've just sort of, like, we're all going to die.

For sure, we're going to die. And so it's like, what do you do before then? And I think in some ways, my thoughts, my opinion on that, it's slightly shaped. My father died unexpectedly when I was 19. He was 55 and he had a heart attack. He was, like, running through an airport and just fell over dead. And, you know, and I think for a teenager, and that sort of precipitated me dropping out of college and going to rock climbing.

At the time, I was just going to take a gap year, you know, or like take a year to go climb and take a semester off and now it's been like 30 semesters off or whatever I'm like going back any day you know but um but I think that you know my takeaway was just that that you know life is short like you know unexpected things happen and to some extent you just have to do the things that you're excited about doing and you know follow your passion and like do I mean that's all cliche but but you know it's it's a useful lesson to learn you know it's like sad to lose my dad at a young age obviously but on the other hand you're like well it's it's an important lesson and I think it helps you make the most of the time that you do have does that experience did that experience at the

time like was like draw like motivate you in some ways I mean not exactly motivate but I think it does help light a fire like it adds a it adds a time horizon to everything you're doing you know because there's so many things in life where you're like and actually I'm sort of struggling with is now living in Vegas. I'm like living a slightly more sedentary lifestyle because not like not like sitting on my sofa but I mean I've been in one place like I live in my van for 12 years and I was literally moving between climbing destinations nonstop and just climbing all the time and now I live here in Vegas and I have two little kids and it's amazing and the local climbing is incredible but I just spent so much more my time just kind of training in the garage kind of like open-ended

and all my projects that I have around town I'm kind of like well if I don't do them this season I'll do him next season because you know we're going to be here until the kids are 18 or whatever i'm like jeez and so there's way less time pressure on the stuff that i'm working on around here and and i think that's to my detriment in a lot of ways you know it's like i think when you can just push things into the future all the time you just don't get as many things done is that is that like gonna like because i wanted to ask you about you know your wife and obviously she was featured very much in the documentary but is that something that you guys have discussed to where it's like we're we're gonna put roots down here because like you said you've moved around and that's sort of your nature

is that something that you sort of have uh conceded to her that like we'll stay here until no it's not even conceding actually it's it's funny because she's actually maybe chafing more against us being here all the time than i am because like i said i lived in a van for 12 years and then of those years i would many of those years i was spending up to five or six months abroad during the year so i traveled like widely as a professional climber excuse me But, so I've gone to, you know, like, 45 countries or something, like, put up new roots, like, all over and new roots on all seven continents, you know, just stuff like that. And, you know, my wife has traveled a bit, but not like that. And so she's a little, she is a little more chafing, you know, which is like, oh, I want to, like, go do cool things.

And I'm kind of like, I'm fine. You know, I can hang out with the kids at home. And it's like, it's okay. Like, we'll get out again eventually. I don't know. But no, I don't know. It's just a different season for life. did you're you know you and I'm just I'm curious what your experience is two of us

just like because we're both just like dumbfounded being like dude like tell like give us like give us something that like we can hang on to to say like because it's it's amazing but in the doc you said when you were starting just starting to to date her you know which is interesting that this love came into your life as you were like trying to climb this thing yeah yeah crazy timing But like do you make anything of that? Or you're like, were you more open to that because your focus? I mean, do you make anything of that? No, that's a good question.

That's interesting. I think, you know, part of us meeting the right person at the right time. And then part of it is also probably the whole experience was so intense. Not just of doing the free solo and doing the climb, but the filming was all pretty intense because, like, the film was just all up in your scene for two years. And then the whole film tour was so intense. And so in a way, it's like surviving this whole experience together, you know, probably brought us closer, you know, like we went to the freaking Oscars together.

We met Prince William and Princess Kate together, you know, at the BAFTA's, the British Academy Awards, because the film won the BAFTA also, which is like the British equivalent. But so, you know, the, what is it, Prince. Yeah, the Prince and Princess, like, greeted all the winners afterward. And we're like, what a cool, you know, it's like you just have all these cool things together. And then that probably did help, you know, like make the relationship more solid. I don't know. Though it was so stressful at the time.

Did you make a decision, though? had said, you said in the thing that you're, you know, about the relationship, look, like, I'm not going to give up climbing. You know, and if I end up going off to climb and I, you know, perish, you use the word perish in climbing, then, you know, who's going to really care anyway? Like, they're going to go on and do, go on with their lives. And then, then you had the accident when, with her, right, where you hurt your ankle. And, and you said, you were like, I, like, that almost was a reason for me to get out of this, you know, but you didn't. And then you kept going, and now you have two amazing kids.

Has your relationship or ideas about love and commitment changed? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, like, yeah, it's all good questions. I mean, a lot of it's just, was that here totally? No, it's just, I mean, a lot of that just is life, you know, and actually it's interesting. I don't know if I'm just becoming slightly more middle-aged or just some of the stuff I've been reading, like, various books and whatever, but I feel like so much of life is just choosing different paths.

And I think in this case, I've just chosen a. path. I'm like, this is a great woman that I love spending time with and, you know, that, that I'm consistently happy with on a day to day and you're sort of like, oh, I'm just going to choose to go down this path with her. And then it's like, oh, we're going to choose to have kids together. And that's like another fork in a road that we've chosen to go down. I'm kind of like pretty happy with all the forks. You know, it's like I'm pretty deeply committed into this whole life that we have now where it's like, oh, we have a home. And like her parents actually live right next to us also. And so it's like we're really tight with a family and my mom

just moved to town and so there's like way more family around like good scene with the kids it's all you know but basically we've created this whole life and i'm like yeah it's really different than living in a van and just sending sending the nar non-stop but i'm like i don't know it's pretty great you know it's like we've just made different choices and and that's good too has her feelings sorry i'm i have has her feelings changed about you know the climbing and and the the risks you take or well i think the main thing is that she has a much broader understanding and appreciation like she has a better understanding of risk and risk taking and all that because i think that to the to the lay person you know they're like climbing it's extreme all the

stuff you're doing is extreme i think that she now has a pretty good understanding of when i'm doing something that's sketchy or when i'm not you know or when i'm doing something that looks sketchy but just isn't because everything's sketched you know no no a lot of it's like chill i mean you know like if i'm doing something for like if i'm free soloing for like a tv commercial or something it's not sketchy it's like you know like basically if there's a camera involved it's probably not that sketchy. Or like if it's a TV project, it's for sure not sketchy because like somebody had to freaking insure it. You know what I mean? Like, but if it's something that I'm doing by myself because I think it's going to be sick, then she's like, oh, that could be

kind of sketchy. You know, and so like she has a much better understanding of like what's dangerous and what isn't and, you know. Yeah, it's funny the last couple years I've done two TV projects like these Nat Geo TV shows. One, this expedition in Greenland called Arctic Ascent. The other was like this big climb in Alaska. Anyway, so those, they're both like mainstream TV things on Disney Plus like they're cool but the they're edited in such a way that you're like this is extreme and I'm kind of like if you're seeing on television it's not that extreme you know because it means that there's a crew there the crew's filming everyone has insurance like it's all covered through you know it was like some attorney looked at everybody's contract like if it's on

TV it's not that hardcore it's like the stuff that you're not seeing is is when it's all getting crazy your your talk spoke to me today and I had an experience listening to you because so I don't expect you to know much about my story but I I went on TV in 2020 and kind of like went from no one really knowing who I was to having this like platform right and similar to your experience when the movie was released and you won an Oscar and you said you had this six months sabbatical to LA and the way that you told that story it sounded like once that sabbatical was over like you didn't want any of that stuff like it was all like you didn't you didn't want to keep pursuing the the fame and and the

fortune that could have come with with that experience and for me I I taste I taste and still taste some of that right like it's it's but I realize like that stuff doesn't make me happy you know it really doesn't like what makes me happy is for me in my life is is watching someone else get sober and there's I can't explain the feeling when when I see someone whose life is being run by drugs and alcohol and then coming out on the other side and building this life of purpose from from basically from basically nothing and and I just I'm very grateful that I that I heard you explain that experience because for me sitting there on those couches today listening to your talk it really hit me like a ton of bricks like we only have so much time on this planet and and doing things that make me happy are

are important to you that's climbing right i mean that's that's that's the thing that no totally totally i mean you know while i was doing my crazy what i called my six-month deployment to hollywood yeah deployment because i was like i felt like i was assigned you know it was like oh you have to go to all these events and i was like this is crazy but i was aware of that it would be a once in a lifetime thing you know I was never going to make another film like I'm not an actor I can't forget you know I can't deliver lines like I'm never going to do any of that kind of stuff and so I was kind of like this is a once in a lifetime thing I just need to embrace it and just have this crazy experience and you know we were meeting all these crazy a list actors and things you know like I freaking was sitting at something I bumped into a guy's name Bradley Cooper really handsome like really straighted like you know and I was backing up my chair and I like ran into Bradley Cooper and I was like what a dude Dude, you know, because he was on the same, he, uh, that was the same year that a star was worn was doing, like, the Oscar run. And so, you know, you're just like, running these people and you're like, this is so cool. Like, what a crazy life experience.

But you know that it's just, you know, it's just a one-time thing. Like, I, as I was doing it, I was like, man, I cannot believe that real actors, like A-less celebrities do this every season. You know, like, every time they have a good film, they have to do this whole crazy process over and over. I was like, holy shizzle, like, that would suck your soul. But if it's the one time in your whole life, you're like, this is sick. Like, that's cool. Yeah, but a lot of those people, their lives are taken away from them. Well, totally.

And that's why it's terrible. And I think that my whole scene is a good middle ground with that, where I'm like, you know, I'm well known enough to enjoy a lot of the perks of like, oh, I get some free things, and I meet nice people, and I go to cool places, and I always have a good experience when I, you know, it's like, it's nice, but it's not so crazy that I can't go to the grocery store. I can't take my kids to school or do whatever. You know, so I'm like, oh, this works out well. I mean, you get recognized, right?

I mean, that's, yeah. Yeah, like airports and public places and stuff for sure. but it's fine it's never you know it's not a big deal it's climbers there's people that no it's like it's mixed yeah and actually and part of that is because climbing has grown so much now you know the like the term climber means a lot more is much broader than it used to be because like people they go to a gym or like their kid goes to a gym or something you're like that's a lot of people nowadays do you is there anything that you're like I afraid of that like is a fear that has just comes out of left field. Like, I'm afraid of spiders, actually. I'm afraid of flying. Is there anything like that?

No, I think I used to have a lot of that. Not a lot, but some of that stuff when I was younger, like he used to be way more afraid of spiders. And I think that actually climbing has made a lot of that go away. How? Why? Just because you just spent so much time managing fear that you just start to evaluate your fears better. Would you call it fear? I mean, like you have such a different relationship to no no climbing is scary even like even normal climbing with a rope with a partner with everything you still get into all these positions where you're like this is really scary like yesterday i did this thing that um that actually i was pretty proud of like this sport route so i was like climbing with a partner it was tied into a rope um it was like day four day five on i'm like pretty

tired but i only had one more day before i was leaving on this trip so i went to this cliff to try to finish this route that i hadn't done and when you're climbing it the way the bolts are like you're clipping your rope into these bolts and it's all totally safe and normal, but the way you're clipping it and the way you're climbing it, your foot is kind of behind the rope sometimes. And if you fall, that way, it can flip you over. It's like, whatever. And so as I'm climbing it, I was like kind of gripped the whole time because I'm like, oh, this is a weird position. Like, I don't want to fall like this because I'm going to flip all crazy. And it still would have been safe probably because the root is so steep, so overhanging

that I wouldn't have hit the wall. Like, it'd be fine. But at the same time, you just don't know exactly what's going to happen. And so you're kind of scared. And so, you know, I managed to climb the route. Well, it took me three tries, but I did the route eventually. And, but I was like a little gripped every time I tried it. Also because it was a brand new route that one of my friends just put up a couple weeks ago. And so the edges are all still kind of friable and crumbly. It's like virgin rock that nobody's ever touched. And he's much shorter than I am. So he climbed it one way, but I was climbing at a pretty different way because I'm a different size. And so I was grabbing different holds. And so the stuff I was grabbing felt like it would break. Basically,

all this to say that there's always uncertainty running through your mind and you're always like a little scared and like not sure. And now you multiply that out over 30 years, you know? Or even like today, I want on like a casual rest day hike, but we actually never even found the thing that we were attempting to climb up the mountain. And we wound up going up the descent by accident because we never actually found the real thing. And then we tried to pioneer this direct way back down

because we wanted to make a nice loop instead of doing an out and back. And all that to say, there was a lot of uncertainty around the route finding. And then, you know, my wife and my sister are not that solid on some of the scary scrambling terrain. And so, you know, I was like, oh, this is all like kind of exciting. And so when you have those kinds of slightly scary, slightly exciting experiences day in and day out all the time for 30 years. I think it just makes you better at parsing out the appropriate fears from the inappropriate fears,

like the things that matter. I think about that all the time when I fly because airports, I think, are a great case study and seeing people stressed about the wrong freaking things or people who are just, you know, like people that don't fly that much, they're just anxious, you know, they're like tense, they're like, what if I missed the flight? And you're like, who cares? You know, you'll go eat a sandwich and you'll take the next one. Like, you're not in any danger.

it's like and being stressed about it isn't going to change the outcome one way or another so you're kind of like just let it play out and see what happens you know but then there are those rare times where if you hustle really hard you can make it and so it's like on those times you should be the first person pushing her out of the plane and then literally running the whole length of the terminal because like basically there are very few times where the outcome is within your control and when it is then yeah you should act appropriately but otherwise don't stress it anyway I can just ramble about random stuff no that that's that's like what I'm thinking about is because because you know know, like when I wake up in the morning, a lot of times, like, I'm riddled with fear about things that probably fit into your box of, that don't matter. You know, like, or that you shouldn't fear. You know, like, I have in later in life developed a fear of flying. And that doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make, it's the safest form of transportation. I know. I know all the numbers. I'm sure people tell you that. I know all the numbers. It does, like, it doesn't matter because it sort of goes back to that like dreaming up an idea. I get an intrusive thought. And it's worse when I'm flying with my family and my wife and kids I get a thought that comes in and I in like that thought

just like starts pricking my body and thankfully I have the ability the tools to sort of like sort of disassociate from my my thinking and realize that like I'm not these thoughts this is safe you're safe but it's it's it's still just an irrational fear you know and but I guess what you're saying is that I have I live with practical realistic fears uh in terms of what could happened to me when I'm doing this so much that like I'm exposed to to a level of fear in a way that just is different than the common person yeah I do think and I think there's something to that like actually being in real positions of consequence on a fairly regular basis makes all that other stuff just go away you know because you're like you know you're just not going to worry about flying

because flying is so freaking safe if you're actually doing stuff where you're going to die you know it's like I don't know like today randomly so I was saying I was on this hike with my and my wife and we were crossing this little slab thing my sister actually kind of like keetered backward and like look like she was going to fall I was like standing right below her trying to like hold her foot on this thing trying to like help her down this deal and basically she like almost fell backward and I'm like I maybe would have been able to kind of catch her a little or spotter but she basically like would have just freaking fallen over me and we both would have tumbled down the slab probably it would have been terrible but then she kind of stuck her she caught her

balance and I kind of like pushed and it all worked out fine but we're both like whoa that was really scary. You know, you both get like a jolt of adrenaline. And you're kind of like, oh, that's a position of real consequence. You know, we're like, oh, like, she almost made a mistake that would have potentially injured both of us a little bit. And you're like, oh, that's scary. But the idea getting on a plane, I'm like, that's going to be so relaxing. I'm just going to take a nap the whole way. It's going to be so chill. I know. You, I'm sitting here just like envious of the way your mind works. And you probably don't acknowledge it or recognize it. No, some of that I think I might just be a little lucky that I'm just,

not because living with my wife now for the last 10 years I'm just way more cognizant of the way other people take in the world and experience things because like my wife I think is actually very well grounded like you know I mean if you've seen the film you see she's like pretty in touch you know she's like she's great like but she's kind of like just a normal person in terms of like managing fear and anxiety and stuff and she'll like often be awake at night like stressing about a thing that doesn't freaking matter and I'm kind of like why and it makes me thankful that I just don't have any of that, I think, to some extent. I mean, obviously, I stress about stuff sometimes, but just not.

It doesn't seem to be a problem the way it is for other people. Yeah, it's wild. So if, if, you know, five, seven, ten years from now, son or, son or two, two daughters, come to you, I'm going to climb. You have no. I'd be so psyched. I mean, but climbing is different than free soloing, you know, and I'm sure. And, I mean, my kids spend so much time outside that for sure they're going to be

hiking for sure we're going to be scrambling on rocks and doing stuff and then there's this huge spectrum between scrambling to free-souling i mean because easy free-soling is if you're if you're skilled rock climber easy free-soling feels more like hiking or scrambling than than it does like elite rock climbing and so depending on where your skill level is it doesn't you know anyway but i'm sure my kids will like dabble in all that kind of stuff whether or not they get into like hardcore climbing i mean that's totally their thing yeah i just i'm sitting here here thinking about like the impact you've had on this world and and not knowing if you've recognized that you know just just even in that room like I come to a lot of these conferences and

the the round of applause you got after the you know you made it to the top it's not something that we see a lot in that's because the music is so good so good so good everything every time i try to get you to accept that like you are this inspirational human you're going to give credit to the music or it is great score Did that get nominated that score? No, but it should have Because documentaries film stuff doesn't The same way

But yeah, Marco, what a dude He's like, yeah, the score's amazing I mean, yeah, it's like, no, I'm proud of the climb And I'm glad that people appreciate it and whatever But then you're like, part of the reason That film is so well received Is because the film is so freaking good You know, the team making it did such a good job

The edits amazing, the score is amazing Like everything works so well You know, because somebody could have made a bad film about that And it could have gone on YouTube or something, and people would see it and be like, oh, that's cool. Like, that's an impressive rock climb, but it wouldn't have had the emotional resonance that Free Solo did. What is your relationship to your phone and social media? Like, do you have any...

I don't have any of the apps. I mean, I have profiles on all the apps, and I actually pay a friend of mine to do the stuff for me. I write all the stuff, and I send it the pictures and do all that, but I don't do it myself, because it's just, I just get too sucked in to, like, stuff that I don't care about. So there you go. You are human in some ways. like you like you like you well I used to just have the app we got it we finally found the one thing yeah social media leave it to social media well dude well as you so uh I don't know a couple years

ago Instagram rolled out a reels or whatever like the videos and I remember I was like taking a dump and I was like what's this and then like an hour later I try to get off the john and I was like oh my legs went numb and my back hurts and I'm like what have I been doing and then I was like I hate myself and then I erase the app and so for for a long time I was like erasing the app and then reinstalling it every time I felt like I had to post something because Part of being a professional athlete is that you kind of have to have some social media presence and post some stuff and do whatever. But then I was like, this is kind of cumbersome because every time I have to reinstall

and then sign back in and then every time I'm going to post something, I want to look in it looking at like, oh, my friend has this new girlfriend, what's her deal, blah, blah, blah. And then you're like, God, I hate this type of stuff. Like, why am I looking at stuff? I don't care about. And so now, yeah, now I just sent like batches of photos with captions to a friend of mine who manages all this stuff for me. But you sent, I know where it will wrap soon, but I know you do a lot of work.

you have a foundation. I don't think you talked about it up there. No, I didn't mention it. Can you talk a little bit about that and how you got into that and what exactly, you know, it's towards climate activism? Yeah, not even specifically climate,

but so, yeah, the Honorable Foundation supports community solar projects around the world. So it's basically energy access. Which is interesting because in the modern political world, you know, climate is sort of polarizing in some ways, but energy independence, not polarizing. You know, that's like downright libertarian or like conservative, you know,

it's like just depends how you, frame of it. Basically, the Honnold Foundation supports community solar projects around the world. And so it's energy access. It's, it's communities using solar or energy for whatever is useful for them. But so we've been funding, you know, something like 2 million worth of projects around the world the last several years. But I started, I think, in 2012. So it's like, yeah, over a decade old. Who runs that? There's an executive director. There's a full-time staff of six or maybe five right now. But basically a small team. Yeah, giving out a couple million of grants every year. And, you know, Yeah.

That's amazing. Did you vote? In the elections? Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean, in Nevada, it's super important. Yeah. But didn't really play out the way I was envisioning.

But, you know, I'm sort of like, wow. You know, though, so interesting, talking about my foundation and talking about voting, like, I don't know, yeah, I don't know. Like, the grants that we give through the foundation are all sort of community-led. it's like community-led nonprofits and you're sort of respecting people's autonomy to choose what they think is best for their community and respect like the way they think they can make their lives better and I mean this is like a huge zag in terms of conversation let's zag but like with the election it's interesting you know I've always like voted you know pretty left I'm like pretty liberal person and pretty like everyone I'm kind of like you know maybe I should just

take the same approach I do with with grantee partners through the foundation where I'm kind of like, if this is what people think will make their lives better, then who am I to say that that's not what's going to make their life better? You know, like, let's let it play out and see what happens. And, like, I personally feel pretty firmly that the direction that the government's going right now is, like, not the way. But I'm sort of like, well, a lot of people do think it might work. And I'm kind of like, okay, let's respect that and see how it plays out.

And sort of like, I don't know, try to stay cautiously optimistic. Maybe it'll not be terrible. And, like, we'll see. Already, though, I'm sort of like, oh, geez. Yeah. I don't know. Zach won't go near this conversation. What, the politics?

That's fine. I'm just a jellyfish. And I, like, you know, it's like, it's a, you know, like. You just adapt to an environment. Yeah. I mean, like, I'm just, like, I think my brain just works differently, whereas, like, I, I think about I want to be safe. I want to be able to do the things that I want to do. Maybe I'm not going to be safe one day.

I don't know. But for today, like, I feel like I've been given a life where I'm pretty, lucky you know and there's a lot of people that are less fortunate than me so like in this conversation i can i can acknowledge when you talk about like the cards that i've been dealt like i've been dealt a pretty good hand and i'm playing them to the best the best of my ability i mean or you were dealt a really hard hand because you've got to overcome a lot assume i don't know i mean i assume anyone the recovery community is like has had to struggle with something and then overcome some big challenges and you're sort of like, oh, that's, is that being dealt a good hand because you

were able to overcome? Or is that being dealt a bad hand because you were forced to overcome? You know, it's like, well, I think, I mean, like, we talk about this all the time. Like, for me, my greatest asset is my experience. I mean, like my 20s were riddled with a brain tumor and opioid addiction and mental health and do I want to be here? Do I want to be alive? Do I not? And, and, you know, coming out of that, I've used all of that experience to, to, to my benefit, just like you have with, with climbing. It was like, like, you can call it luck or you can call it, you know, God, you know, you can call it whatever you want. But at least in my experience, I'm 17 years sober, too, and Zach is 13, you know, not everyone gets that window

to help themselves or to allow themselves to be helped, you know? And like, in your experience with losing your father like that, a lot of people, they go, they zag, right? They become very embittered and angry and that's how there's a lot of trauma in in this world that we come from of and so it's a lot of it is just your makeup right and and and also the way you were raised in values that sort of make this interesting cocktail where you respond to things in a different way you know and um you said it didn't motivate you necessarily but like it shaped a fundamental idea yeah totally you know what i find an interesting though is hearing you say you're 17 years over and you're 13 years like my entire professional climate like all the stuff I'm known for is all

happened in the last 17 years and kind of like in a way it's like so incredible to be like oh I don't know I think it's interesting I have a few friends that are like not necessarily struggling with addiction or like recovery stuff but just kind of maybe in like a bad place in life and you're sort of like and they just don't quite know how to like turn it around you're sort like oh it's so interesting to hear like oh and then I turned it around had 17 years on a different path and just like it just goes to show that no point in life is it not worth making a change and making something better. Because you're like, man, 17 years on a different path

is a long time, and you can do a lot of useful things in 17 years, you know? You can, like, totally change your whole situation. So I'm like, basically my entire useful life has been 17 years. I'm sort of like, oh, glad that I was on a good path for it. Yeah. I'm just thinking about I've been climbing a bunch

with this friend of mine. He's, like, been living in a trailer behind my house. He's just like, he's kind of like a day labor type. He's a very strong climber, but he's basically just like sort of adrift. And he's, like, just works as, a day labor and it's kind of embittered about like oh i'm just going to like work until my body's broken and i have no prospects and i'm sort of like oh it's just a good reminder that at no point in life is it not like worth making a change and yeah going down a different path yeah well your

your your path is wild and and even the look i mean i can't it's it's unbelievable man does that bother you at this i mean because like you know you are known for something um does it Are you like, oh, God. No, no, it's great. I mean, no, I'm glad. I mean, no, it's great. I'm just, I don't know. I mean, like I was saying earlier, there's so many people on earth. Like, there are going to be some people who are better at some things than others and worse at others. And I'm kind of like, yeah, I mean, I don't know, I wound up in a weird place, but it's freaking great. Love it. Like, that's fine. Yeah. I think, uh, I think a lot of people would be fortunate to have your approach to life and approach to living.

Do you have like a micro macro, like, because you're at one, like when you watch, see those photos, especially when they're pulling away. And it's like you just like in space. Like you could be on, you can be on the moon, you know, but on the other hand, you like, I know that this is, you know, yard 355 on the face. It's going to hook. So you have both of those things. Well, actually, so one of the things I love about free-soling, and this is slightly different than what you're saying. But I love the sense of the very big and the very small. Because one of the things that free-souling really does to you is that on the one hand, you're climbing this vertical rock face by yourself with no protection.

And you're like, I am the fucking man. You're like, this is sick and I'm living my best life and I am rad. But then on the other hand, you're like, I'm this tiny, tiny little speck on this giant wall. And if I fell, no one's going to know, no one's going to care. Like, really, you know, in the grand sense of like you're just going to be an animal like splatting on the ground. And like, depending where you are, like, what's left of your corpse is going to be eaten by animals, you know, before anyone ever. you and you're just like, oh, you're just a little speck of cosmic dust in the grand scheme. And I think that Solang does an interesting job of kind of combining those two where you're like,

you feel so big and then you feel so small and insignificant. And it just reminds you the whole scope of human experience, you know? We're sort of like, this is awesome, but I am just nothing in the grand scheme of things. And climbing in general does a lot of that because you're like out climbing and you're like, this is such a great day and I'm so psyched. And then it gets really windy and you're like, now I'm really, really cold. it starts to rain and you're like now I'm fucking worked and you're kind of like it just reminds you that you know ultimately nature is in charge of all of it and you're just doing your best

last question are you spiritual like do you do you believe in god i definitely don't believe in god i don't subscribe to any organized religion i mean depends what you mean by a spiritual i was technically raised catholic like my my mom is polish and it was all like old world like you know They're all Catholic. But no. And so I've always considered myself like a pretty serious atheist. I think as I've gotten older, I'm sort of more like open to the inexplainable. Or, you know, I'm like, who knows?

And I'm definitely less opposed to religion because I feel like it can't help some people in the right ways, maybe. But I feel like it's also, I don't know, yeah, but I'm not that spiritual. But depending how you describe it, because I've had so many really powerful experiences in nature. where you feel sort of a touch with the world around you and like you know you feel a sense of oneness and i mean that's basically what people describe as spirituality so it kind of depends what you mean yeah i mean like i just don't believe that i would have been i don't think i was that

powerful enough to get sober i believe that i needed a a source a power outside of me whether that be god or something from the universe and that's why i don't question it and i sit here talking to you and i I just believe that on this path that you are on, that you, there's something divinely inspired about the things that you've been able to do. And I'm not here to say it's God, but there's something working in your favor to accomplish the things. Yeah, I mean, I'd be totally comfortable. Like, I have been very inspired by the grandeur of nature in certain ways, which, you know,

you could ascribe to whatever. I don't know. I really don't like dogmatic spiritual belief. You know, I mean, like the Catholic faith with all kinds of crazy saints. and like you know it's just insane and so you know I think dogmatic religious belief I think I'm just too contrarian for that kind of stuff where you're like wait you're telling me that these are the rules because somebody wrote them down thousands years ago you're like well which translation like which version do you want to read like that sounds like bullshit you know it's like I'm just too

contrary for that kind of stuff but I'm totally fine with you know it's like we live in a beautiful world a beautiful universe like there's a lot going on that we don't understand it's it inspires us in in different ways. I'm like, yeah, that I totally, you know, I believe in that. I mean, dude, you have been very gracious with your time. I don't think you understand how gracious to come here and do this with us and speak to the conference. And so I just, I want to share some gratitude for you and your story and what you've been able to accomplish. And just the inspiration that you've not only provided me today, but the rest of the people that you've come in touch with.

No, thank you. No, I mean, it's funny. I mean, I'm sort of like, oh, I've, drove i had an amazing morning out hiking with my family i came down here met really nice people had nice chat i'm like what a nice day go home and actually i'd go home and frantically pack because i'm supposed to be climbing something kind of serious tomorrow and i'm like oh i need to figure out what we're doing but um but yeah super psyched well we'll let you know we're going to we're going to do an alex honald tomorrow i think a bunch of us are going to wake up early and drive out to some some rocks and see if we can if you make it at that trail when you look across me there'll be all these inspiring mountains there's this one big wall looming in the back i'm going to be

climbing not tomorrow we'll look for you but i'll probably be starting roughly when you guys are finishing because you guys have a whole day at work ahead of you whereas you know and i don't want to go out when it's too cold just because for what we're climbing you just you just don't want to be well we appreciate you man this was awesome and i hope we can stay in touch thanks no it's a total pleasure it's really nice chatting thanks times