The Zac Clark Show - Lemonada CEO Stephanie Wittels Wachs: Losing Her Brother to Addiction & What Families Need to Know

Episode Date: September 22, 2026

Stephanie Wittels Wachs is the CEO and cofounder of Lemonada Media, host of the award-winning podcast Last Day, and author of Last Day: How to Stop Losing Our Loved Ones to the Opioid Crisis. But none of this work would exist without her younger brother, Harris Wittels. Harris – the beloved writer, producer and comedian known for Parks and Recreation and Master of None – died of an opioid overdose in 2015 at just 30 years old. Before his death, Stephanie watched someone she loved cycle through addiction, treatment and relapse while her family struggled to understand what they were supposed to do. In this deeply personal conversation, Stephanie tells Zac about the call when Harris first revealed his OxyContin addiction, the mistakes she believes her family made with the information they had at the time, and the moment she finally understood that her brother wasn't choosing to hurt them – he was sick. More than a decade later, Stephanie has devoted much of her life to understanding the questions she couldn't answer then. She and Zac talk about opioid addiction, relapse, medication-assisted treatment, 12-step recovery, harm reduction, Narcan, boundaries, grief, guilt, and why there may not be one path to recovery. At its heart, this is a conversation about something millions of families struggle with: how do you help someone you love when you can't make them get sober? Stephanie’s new book – Last Day: How to Stop Losing Our Loved Ones to the Opioid Crisis – is available now: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Last-Day/Stephanie-Wittels-Wachs/9781668093184 Connect with Stephanie: https://www.instagram.com/wittelstephanie/ Listen to Last Day: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/last-day/id1468896686 More about Lemonada: https://lemonadamedia.com/?utm_source=chatgpt.com Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

He called me three days before my wedding. He told me he was addicted to Oxycontin and that he was spending $4,000 a month on pills. Don't tell Mom and Dad. He was a brilliant person and the funniest person who ever lived. Stephanie Whittles Waxe lost her brother back in 2015 to an accidental overdose.

I did not know that overdose was preventable, that addiction was treatable. There isn't some sort of like, here are the best practices. That is what I wanted to do. with this book. She's a writer. She's a podcaster. She's a host. She's a CEO of a large media company. Do you ever step back and say, like, I'm just trying to fill this void? Is this all just to make, like, be able to forgive yourself? That is an interesting question. Your work is inspiring.

Your story's inspiring. I feel as though when doing my research, there's the micro, Harris, your brother, that you lost, 2015. And there's the macro, which is the work that you're doing. Yeah. Where do you want to start? Oh, I mean, let's start with the micro. Yeah. Because I wouldn't be doing any of this work without him. You know, it's like the kind of work, I'm sure you agree, that you don't plan to get into. I didn't think when I was young, you know what I want to do? I want to learn everything there is to know about opioid use disorder and treatment and overdose and harm reduction, that's really what I want to do with 10 years of my life.

More than 10. More than 10, yeah. But then, yeah, life happens and you fall into these sort of pockets that are unexpected. So Harris was my way into this. My brother was, I mean, objectively, objectively the best. Truly. Like, I think Sarah Silverman did say he was the funniest person who ever lived. And I think she is...

Oh, shit, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for real. She gave him his first comedy job at 22. Okay? He was fresh out of college. This doesn't happen. His resume was like the stuff of fiction, you know? Parks and Rec.

Parks and Rec. Well, yeah, so he starts with Sarah. He does that show for like a year or two. Then he goes on to Parks and Rec. He starts in that writer's... room. He does that for seven seasons. He plays the animal control guy on the show. Yeah. Harris. He was always high in the show. Very funny. He coined the term humble brag. Like, he made that word up. That's him. That's him. Humble brag.

He created this Twitter account and he would retweet offenders. That's how it started. So if somebody would like tweet like, oh, I'm so tired. I was like on a red eye to Italy. He'd like retweet it. So it was just like a brilliant, he was a brilliant person. And, um, but more than that, he was like, he was my only sibling. He was my lifelong buddy. Like he was my lifelong sidekick. Like I know some siblings have relationships that are not close, I hear. But ours was not like that.

We were very close. And our family was very close and very, um, I thought we had this very perfect childhood. Dr. Gabor Mante would argue and taught me otherwise, which I mentioned in the book. But yeah, Harris was amazing. And when he started having this problem, you know, he called me three days before my wedding. This was 2013. He told me he was addicted to Oxycontin and that he was spending 40.

$500 a month on pills. And I was like, what are you talking about? Where were you guys living? So I was in Houston, Texas at the time, and Harris was in L.A. So I didn't see him every day. Like I couldn't see what he was going through. I didn't have like a line of sight into his daily life. I just knew that he was really succeeding.

Like he was crushing it, you know? Well, 2013, so I got clean. in 2011, it was getting harder to get pills. Totally. Yeah, he was spending real money. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which is why he eventually turned to heroin.

I mean, that's what happened. Like, the pills were really expensive. They were harder and harder to come by. That was exactly his story. You know, it was the kind of thing where, like, at the time, I was just like, you have to go to rehab. Because that's all I knew. That's all I knew.

That's all anyone knows. Right. Go, go, let me Google where you should go and then go to this place that is wildly expensive for 30 days. And then you'll come out the other side clean, like a car wash. Or to this place that takes your insurance, but it's an insurance-based program. So, of course, it can't be worth a damn. That's right. And he did go to the insurance-based program the second time around.

Like he kept relapsing, right? And so in 13 he calls you. He's using a fourth and you. Okay. Because you started by saying it's a close-knit family. Totally. And in a close-knit family, I would hope there's no secrets. Don't tell mom and dad.

Right. Don't tell mom and dad. So there were secrets that I had to keep for him and that was one of them. And so I was carrying this, like, you know, I got, pregnant, like, very soon after. So I'm, like, dealing with that. I'm like, first time, mom, I mean, it was just a lot. Um, the problem kept getting worse. You know, finally, like, I think it was about three months, maybe four months after he had told me that I finally, like, told my parents because I just couldn't, um, I couldn't carry it on my own anymore. I just felt

I was just terrified. I was just so scared, you know? In this book, Last Day, How to Stop Losing Our Loved On Wants to the Opioid Crisis, I have said on many accounts that I believe it's harder to be the family member than the identified patient a lot of times. Because the identified patient actually gets to go to that rehab or gets to go, get the help they need 24-7 around the clock and be in community and not be alone. And for you, as a sister who loves your brother dearly, knows nothing. And you're over here, like waving the flag, like, hey, what about me?

Can you talk a look? Because I can still feel it's heavy to you. This is still. I mean, yeah. 11. I mean, it's been 11 years. Yeah. Any other illness, chronic illness, disease, whatever somebody has, your family member gets cancer. Your family member is grappling with something like that. There's so much support around you. But with something like addiction, you're holding that alone. There's stigma. There's shame. You're not like talking to your friends and family about it. This is you as sister in 2013. This is not you now with 11 years of having done the research. Totally. When you're thrust into this, it's not like, oh, let me go to work and talk to my friends at work about my brother who is using heroin and see what their experience has been with this.

anybody in your family injecting heroin? Do you guys, can we talk about that? You don't do that. It's very shameful. And so you feel very alone with it. There isn't some sort of like, here is what you do. Here are the best practices. That is what I wanted to do with this book. I mean, I literally wanted to write the book that I wish somebody had handed me when I was in that moment. I want like somebody to have, like I say like I want you to like highlight it, dog ear it, you know, go to go to the places you need and then like pass it on to the next person that needs it. From 2013 to 2015, the sister, Stephanie, do you, did you learn anything? Do you feel like there was information or trainings or education available to by the time he passed? No.

And he had been to treatment how many times? So he was in treatment three times. The first one was a very fancy one. The second one was the insurance program. The third one was a program where he started and then went into like a sober living. Nice. After. But he was a very, very charming person, the most charming.

And he had somehow condescending. conned them into letting him leave, you know, to do various things. Anyway, he was he was working, writing on a TV show, which was Master of Nun, which was the Aziz Ansari show. And then he had just gotten cast as his best friend in the show, which Eric Wehrheim ended up playing because he died. But he was leaving and essentially like went and did a conference. comedy show and went home and used while he was living, you know, at this sober living facility.

So his was a return to use. Mm-hmm. Goes back to the same dosing. And every time what I would notice was he would get out and then the problem would get worse. It was like each time he got out, he relapsed immediately. And then it would get worse. And I was like, okay, there's something about this. thing that's not working. And I don't know what it is because nobody's taught me how to do this,

but there's something that's not working. And I was so angry at him. I was so, and we didn't have that kind of relationship. I didn't typically feel angry at him, even though he was like very frustrating. He was like, he would argue about things that didn't matter. Like, you know, but I thought it was so adorable. I mean, it didn't. But during this period of our lives, I just was like just full of rage, you know, full of it. Was there ever a moment where you felt like he was sober, like he was going to achieve long-term abstinence, long-term sobriety? Was there hope?

Did you ever have hope? The first time he went, I had hope. Right. Because I was under the assumption that this would cure the purpose. the problem. This would fix the problem. I was certain of it. And he was such a good, he was like a star rehab student. Like his therapist there would talk to us about how wonderful he was. And we were like, yeah. That's the person I worry about. The person that comes in is like, I don't want to fucking be sober. I don't want to be here. Fuck you and your 12 steps or whatever they say. Totally. I'm like,

this guy's got a shot. Because he's being honest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. But like this was the thing. Like I was noticing like it's just not it's not working. Right. None of this is working. Does anybody see that we're doing the thing but it's not working? And I what really like snapped me out of this was when I saw him going through detox. Like I saw I saw him very, very sick and going through opioid, acute opioid. withdrawal. And it was like, somebody slapped me in the face. And I was like, oh my God, okay, he's not doing this to me. He's sick. Did you understand? That's a, I want to double click on that because I've been through opioid withdrawal. It's terrible. You would not wish it on your worst enemy.

No. Did that give you compassion and understanding as to why people use again? And that it's actually the medicine. Totally. It, it like, it was, I, I, I've described this whole process of like, my journey of understanding this as these moments where like the tectonic plates kind of shift, you know, where like the reality is, you know, it's sort of like, you know, you're like standing there in a movie and it's like, whoa, won, won't. It's like all sort of like, you're like, oh my God, everything I thought that was is not. And, I get it now. Like that was one of those moments for me.

Just like these huge moments of like, aha, where I was like, okay, this, he is very, very ill. This is not a willpower issue right now. This is not him being selfish, him ruining our lives, him doing all of the things that I was accusing him of doing. He is sick. He has this thing that needs. it was like, at that point, I was like, wait a minute, you don't need to go to a rehab for 30 days. You need to go to a medical, to a hospital. You need a doctor.

You need medication. You like, it just sort of rewired my brain. What's interesting. I mean, the big book in AA, which is an archaic book, actually talks about that. Like, the person must be medically detox. It must be before they can even absorb any of the therapy, any of the, any of, of the spirituality, any of, and that's a part that I think we oftentimes miss. Because we get them into detox and we, as the family members, expect them to.

Yep. When Harris, when he died? When did you get that call? Where were you? So it was the day before my birthday. When's your birthday? We have dark humor. February 20th.

So it was February 19th. Like he was stealing your birthday. I know. I was just like, this is like, this is like, Of course. I was just like, respect. You will never have a birthday again without thinking about how I am not here. I didn't laugh at the time, Zach, but now. I get it. No, I mean, look, this is laughing is part of the healing.

It's a savior. It's how you keep going, truly. And it's Harris is with you. Oh, 100%. Like, in our family, I mean, we, that's how we get through everything. That's like our native language is laughter, you know, jokes. Like, if you're not funny, you're out. Like my kids, I'm like, I don't care, whatever. I don't care if they're not funny, they have to leave. They're not, they can't be a part of the family.

Thank God they are so they can stay. So yeah, we were at, we were at the audiologist because my daughter, my daughter was 13 months at the time. And she was born with like a permanent hearing loss also. We were dealing with her. We were dealing with her health issues. And it was like a, it was a really hard time. Like Harris was dealing with the addiction.

She was doing this. I was just scared all the time. I was just like literally choked by fear and anxiety. I just felt like paralyzed. Like even, even when I like talk about it now, I get choked up because it was such a traumatic time. Like I was just a wreck, you know. And I felt so powerless and I felt so helpless. And I'm like an active, I'm an action-oriented girl.

Like, give me a task. I'm going to do it. Like, I'm a CEO of a company now. Like, I'm, like, highly efficient. And to not have a solution to not be able to fix this, either of them, was like, horrible, a horrible feeling. So we were at the audiologist. She had just finished her appointment and she had got this, you know, they were like, she is doing so amazing. Like she's thriving, right? Like she got hearing aids when she was three months old and, you know, her verbal skills were like

that of a three-year-old when she was one. I mean, she was like, you know, a star. And I was so proud of her. And, you know, it was a beautiful day. She was doing great. My birthday was the next day. We had planned to go to this like teaky place with my friends. You know, we were like going to do a thing. And I was changing her diaper after the appointment. It was like about to be five o'clock.

And I got a call from an unknown L.A. area code. So I like press ignore. Can't change you the diaper. The phone rings again. And I was, you know, I just, I just knew. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Because it's like, I mean, you imagine the call. Like, it's so interesting because you imagine it, but then you can't imagine it. You know, it's like you imagine, okay, this is something that could happen. But then when it does, you're like, how is this happening? Right. You know, and yeah, it was a detective and she told me. He was alone. Yeah, he was alone.

Did he ever find any community? Or was he resistant to that? I think he found some community in the sober living where he was. Yeah. But it is an insidious disease. Do you drink and do drugs? Like, do you, like, how did you? Because oftentimes I feel like that is a coping mechanism.

Uh-huh. And I've talked to family members that actually carry guilt and shame around that. Yeah. I mean, we did a lot of drugs together as kids, like, you know, for fun. I mean, for me, I was able to have, you know, I was able to do something and then not do it again for a month. And I think he was too. But that gives you an even more of a fundamental understanding of this thing. The fact that you can say that, honestly, is going to help a lot of people.

Oh, yeah, for sure. Because if you really listen to what you just said, whatever the drug, we'll call it cocaine for this conversation. I'm not saying she did cocaine, but we're going to call cocaine here. Mom, he's not saying I did cocaine. Being able to go out and do a line of cocaine on a Saturday night and then not look at it or think about it or need it for three months is a pretty good indicator that you don't have a substance use disorder. Nope. I have other problems. And this is, and my, my, my good, my good doctor friend, Dr. Gabor Mate, taught me real fast. I mean, I brought him on my podcast. I was like, listen, I know that you say that trauma is the root of all addiction, but we had a perfect childhood. And so you are wrong. And literally by the end of this conversation, he was like, ma'am in his very thick accent. Like, You don't use drugs. That's not your drug of choice. But you have other addiction. You have another addiction. And mine happens to be work. Like I am a bona fide workaholic. Like it's a very

productive addiction. Like I have, you know what I mean? Like it's like very socially accepted for me to work 18 hours a day and tune everybody out in my life. And, you know, I mean, there's consequences of that for sure. So everyone who's who's watching, this, everyone has something that they do to the detriment of other things. So when he sort of reframed it for me, I was like, okay, I see. Like, yeah, it's not drugs for me, but achievement, success, all of that. Dopamine. Dopamine. Dopamine, dopamine, dopamine, dopamine. Control. Oh, my God. Control. This is why when the two people, like Harris and Iris, both of them when they had things I couldn't control, I was like out of my mind.

And can't outwork it. Totally. And I mean, I wrote my first book in the nine months after my brother died. Like the way that I was able to cope with that grief was by writing an entire book. Can we talk about the grief? Because there's a lot of people that are in your shoes. Yeah. And I feel for you.

I have great compassion for you. Working in behavioral health care, obviously, I've lost a ton of people. Yeah. I guess my first question is how is the first book, this book, the podcast, Lemonada. Do you ever step back and say, like, I'm just trying to fill this void? And I would need you to answer honestly. Like, is this all just to make, like, be able to forgive yourself? I mean, obviously, because like I can't, I mean, I don't.

I don't step. I just keep going. I mean, I just do, do, do, do, do. I mean, maybe I need to, I need to understand the ever-living shit out of this issue because I lost my brother. And, yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't save him then. So. But I don't know. I haven't thought of it like that.

Oof, that's a good one. You're thinking about that for a few days. Well, I want to give you permission. to know that you cannot get him high and you cannot get him sober. We know that. I do know that now. So I do know that now. Actually, I do know that.

Yeah. It's not my job. It's not my job. You're right. Families come. We treat a lot of people. Most of our families are amazing and loving. We get some tough families.

But most of them... You're like, we get some families and I'm like, I understand why you're using drugs. And they... If their love could have healed... this person, it would have happened 10 years ago. Totally. So I want to give you permission to know that, but also I'm feeling a lot of identification. Like I'm feeling the workaholism in my life.

I'm feeling like, why do people do this work? Why do people work in behavioral health care? It can be scary. Totally. Like we're all just trying to do this work to fill some whole or God complex thing where, oh, I couldn't say that one. So I'm going to go save the next. I'm going to write the book to hand to the person.

And then she's going to call me in three years and say, Stephanie, you change my entire family's path. And that would be a great outcome. Yeah. Well, people have. They've written me from the podcast. You save my life. You save my person's life.

Like, yeah, I've gotten those messages. And I'm like, what? You know, like, wow. Like that is, but, but it's, it's, it's, it's the, the knowledge gap, right? Like, I, I, I did not know in 2015 that overdose was preventable. I did not know that addiction was treatable. I didn't, I didn't know. And, and I think, like, it's interesting, like, I've talked to so many different people over the years.

I've talked to people in long-term recovery, you know, people who did the 12 steps, you know, people who call themselves addicts, doctors who say don't ever call somebody an addict. The language thing kills me. Say they have a substance use disorder. Say that, you know. It kills me. Tell me why. I just, there's like the language police that'll come on my Instagram or thing and like don't say drug addict.

But I'm like, what if drug addict is the one thing that the person who's seeing this actually identifies with? Right. That's the problem with all this stuff. No one knows. We don't actually know. Totally. That's my conclusion. Yeah.

That's your conclusion. We don't know. Yeah. We know some things at work. Yeah. I am not. I went to treatment. Yeah.

I went to sober living. I was in a residential place for eight months. Okay. I was on Vivitrol. Yeah. I went to therapy. I did 12-step work. Yep.

I still do therapy. I'm still in 12 support. Like, I don't know. Like, was the shot in my butt? Yeah. For the first nine months? Yep. The thing that's, I don't know what saved me.

All I can tell you is I'm here. Totally. And my brother turned down the Vivitrell shot. Turned it down. And I do. Do you remember his reason? I mean, I'm sure his reason was I want to get high, you know? No, but do you remember his outward reason?

No, I didn't even know he did turn it down. I didn't know until after he died when I went to visit. the treatment center and they told me that he turned it down. What are they going to do? Like, strap him down and give it to him. I mean, it's like he's a grown man. But that's to your point. Like, we, I can't save anybody. Like, I can't make him get sober on my timeline, which was frustrating to me. Because I was like, bro. Like, can you please not ruin Christmas? Like, can, like, like this is this is the baby's first Thanksgiving like would you just show up and not be a fucking asshole yeah it's not you know like but it's like it's and that's what when I saw him sick I was like

okay you know and that's why I think the Vivitrol stuff like I've kind of become like the language police whatever put that aside I do think that for families specifically it is helpful to think of this as a disease. And that's why, like, in the book, I start with, like, first chapter, addiction as a disease. Because if I think that my brother has cancer, I have empathy. I have compassion. One of the smartest addiction medicine doctors I know who I've, you know, I just, I love her. I love her work. taught me early on, like, five years is in, is what they sort of say, like, from last use to sustained remission takes five. years to get to the baseline sort of population level, right? Like, that's 1,825 days. So, like,

you saying, like, I show up, I do the 12-step work, like, it's time. Like, it takes a lot of time. And I wanted him to be done and over in a month. And it was just, like, completely unrealistic. So I think the Vivitrol shot, what it does is it helps early on, at least, to curb cravings, to like mitigate withdrawal, you know, like those kinds of like physical symptoms that you're literally experiencing because your brain is like needing the opiate, like oxygen. It's like the same as oxygen, I've learned. Yes. I think those medications are really useful in those early months where, like you said, you're not ready for the spirituality. You're not ready for the community. Like, you are sick. That has to, like there is a physiological thing happening. And so I think for the family, like, if I had known Harris has a disease, he needs treatment. He needs long-term treatment. It would have helped me. to like support him through that. And early on, like, I've gone to the point now where I would rather he call me and say, hey, I'm about to use and me sit in his house in the other room with Narcan

so that if he ODs and goes into respiratory depression, like, I can be there and I can revive him. For sure. Like the alone, the using alone when you are using opiates is so fucking. dangerous. Like call a hotline. Like phone a friend. Don't use a loan. But then we go down this stigma road that is another thing that drives me. Totally. Because a real ally doesn't ask questions, shows up, doesn't try to convince him of anything and just says, hey, I'm going to be in the other room. 100%. Go get high. Totally. And that's really hard, especially for families. That's really fucking hard. Do you blame? I mean,

I'm sure you've blamed yourself. I'm sure that's come up. But do you blame anyone else for this? Have any of your efforts gone towards specific providers or people or things that happened? You know, it's so interesting. Like, I don't know, like, you know how, like, we all have, like, colors in our, in our palette, like, in our crayon box that are, like, our favorite colors. Blame isn't a crayon that I, that I use. That's amazing.

It's just not like it's not one of my my dominant ones. That's going to make you a very powerful person in this work that you're doing. I think it's why maybe I'm able to do it because I, yeah, I don't actually blame anybody. That's awesome. I think that he had a disease that killed him is what I think. You know what I mean? And I think he was like, I had this guy, one of the guys that talked to, many times this guy stamps Sam Snodgrass, which is that not the most amazing name.

It's incredible. He's from Arkansas. He also has this killer accent. But he, the first time I talked to him, and he's like a behavioral pharmacologist, he had a, you know, heroin addiction for decades. I mean, this guy is like fucking total genius on every side of this. The experience, educational experience. All of it. All of it.

He, the first time I talked to him, he was like. this is a disease, a brain structure and function. And I said, well, what makes you susceptible to this disease? And he said being human. And I was like, whoa. Like, I was just like, okay, we live in human bodies. We're susceptible to a bunch of shit. You know, like, that's what it is.

is to live in this world. And like, how do we help people through these moments where, you know, you're doing so much work in this space? I love that because I feel like I, in a different way, try to say the same thing. People, family members, will come to me and say, why? I said, I don't know. Manufactured, genetic, like for me, I had a brain tumor and then I'm in a hospital and they're injecting me with Delaudid, which is legal heroin people. Like, that's what, That's what Sam Staggrass loved, the Delotted. Yeah, totally. Who doesn't, though?

Totally. I mean, same with Harris. He had a back thing. He was prescribed to Oxycontin, blah, blah, blah, blah. There's so many stories, you know. The thing for me, because you're talking about Thanksgiving and the holidays, and that's like the family of a substance use disorder, haver, questions 101 is, can they come home for the holidays? And when I say that those people, it's not on them, it's what you can tolerate.

That's right. It's what you can tolerate. If you can live in a world where you know that Harris might come home, he might be high and he might be an asshole. That's right. But you want him there more than him not being there, then that's a yes. Yep. But if you can't tolerate that, then you have permission to say, Harris, I love you, you and I are going to celebrate Thanksgiving on Black Friday or I'm going to come see you that weekend.

Yeah, it's those expectations, I think, is what's really hard. I think expectations are like the thing that kills us in every aspect of our lives. That's crazy. So how long after Harris passed did you decide? I mean, you wrote the book within nine months. I'm smiling because I know a little bit about your story. Like, I know what you've done in the world, which is, incredible.

CEO, media company, met your business partner? Is that the proper way to say? Or like thought partner? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we started the company together. Yeah.

Who had a similar experience. And it's called Lemonada, which is basically telling me about the name. Yeah. So, Lemonada, my business partner and I met because she lost her brother

to an overdose also. And she was also like a type A workaholic. and she heard me on a podcast talking about Harris and like stalked me in a positive way, not a negative way. And yeah, we got on the phone and she was basically like, do you want to do a podcast about the opioid crisis? I was like, no, I'm good. I hate them.

They ruin my life. I don't want to think about them, talk about them, you know, whatever. This was like 2018. Yeah, it was 2018 because it was a week before I gave birth to my second kid. So I was very pregnant. Iris and Harry. So my- Harry.

Yeah, Harrison. Actually named my son Harris. And he went to the NICU for a few hours after. And I called the NICU to check on him. And I said, this is Harris' mom. And I burst into tears. And I was like, we have to change his name. because I can't cry every time I say my son's name.

So we went with Harrison. Did that help? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, I wanted to give him Harris's name because Harris was the best person in the world, you know, but I just couldn't do it. So anyway, she and I, you know, joined forces and we started this podcast. And the idea behind Lemonada was like lemons, lemonade out of lemons. Like, it was right when Beyonce released her lemonade album.

So, like, obviously, we couldn't step on those toes. So my partner was half Italian. So she was like, Lemonada is like the Italian. And then for me, I was like Lemonsada. No more lemons. And so we were like Lemonada. So that's how we came up with the name. And, you know, we started with last day.

But now we have over 100 shows. We, our brand statement is make life suck less. That's what we, that's all of our podcasts do that in some way, shape, or form. And we, you know, now we get to do wiser than me with Julia Louis Dreyfus and, you know, you know, Sarah Silverman program. It's a big deal. Lots of, lots of, lots of cool shit that's not sad and tragic. Did Sarah, she knew the, I mean, like.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yes, yes. Yeah. And she was like his, she was like his. she was like his mentor. I mean, loved him so much. And he loved her. I mean, their relationship was so beautiful.

And he was, you know, he was just very beloved. Was the funeral massive? Yeah. Yeah, it was. It was. Packed, packed, full house. I mean, listen, like a 30-year-old shouldn't die. Like, that is just never something that should happen.

Like, it's so fucked up. I've been to a bunch. Yeah. I've been the ones that aren't packed. Ugh, that's sad. Yeah, no, I mean, that's a thing, like, I've heard from a lot of people over the years. And Harris had a pretty charmed experience. Like, even when his addiction was at its very worst, he was still going to work.

I mean, you know what I mean? Like, he wasn't, like, 10 years living on the street. you know, like so many people that experience this. I'd love to know the numbers behind that. Like, if there were a thousand opioid use disorder cases, how many of them are showing up productively in the world and how many are on the street homeless, I bet we would be shocked.

Yeah. I think you're probably right. Yeah. That most of those folks are showing up each and every day. I think that's right. Yeah. It's interesting. I talked to this guy, Stephen Murray, who has become a really good friend, and he runs an overdose detection hotline, the only government-funded hotline. And it's kind of wild. You can call and somebody will stay on the phone while you use. And then if you stop responding, they'll call EMT. And he was telling me, like, when you think about alcohol use, like, that's That is a spectrum. You've got your people who never drink because they either don't like it or they're pregnant or they get migraines, whatever. Then you've got your like people who just drink on special occasions. You've got your weekend warriors. You've got your people who drink a glass of wine every night for dinner. You've got your people who drink a bottle of wine every night. And then you've got your friends who are waking up and drinking in the morning and going to work and you would never know. Like it's all a spectrum. And we think about it like zero.

to 100, right? You're either, like, clean and you're like a functioning member of society, or you're like fucking completely destroyed at rock bottom, you know? But like there's so many people who are showing up every day and struggling with something and nobody knows. Can I build off that? Yeah. Do you, I mean, do you believe in abstinence? Do you believe, I mean, let's go. I think abstinence is dangerous when it comes to opiates. So the other thing is, like, I am not an expert in any other addiction. Like, I did a ton of research about this one thing. And I think that with a drug supply that is as contaminated as it is currently, with fentanyl and all of the synthetic opioids that are out there, it is very dangerous to have nothing in your system and then to use.

So like a lot of people will get out of rehab. They'll go use. They'll use even at a dose that is lower than what they thought and they'll overdose. So that's why I think like these medications that we have available, you mentioned one of them. There's also like buprenorphine, you know, methadone, you know, there's agonist, antagonist. There's a whole sort of biopsy of them. Narkin. There's a medication. I mean, like, that's right. If you want to, you know, throw that in the mix. That's right. That is the, yeah, the opioid reversal drug. So I think, I think it's, I think abstinence when it comes to an opioid use

disorder can be, can be dangerous. Why? Because of, because of what I said, because of overdose. I mean, because of, because of people die. It's death. Yeah. I mean, it's just like very, like, like, going from zero to like that, it's just the effects of the opiates and what they do and how they depress your breathing and people using alone because it's shame and stigma and all of that. And why would they want to call somebody and say I'm about to shoot heroin? like you don't want to make that call. That's why. So I think if you can be on some kind of medication, and like there's a lot of debate about

this in the 12-step world too, like some 12-step programs don't consider you sober and clean if you're on Suboxone, right, or on buprenorphine or something like that. Or Xanax or Adderall or Vivance or, I mean, I've heard of stories where, a sponsor will tell their sponsor that they're not sober if they're on an antidepressant. And so that is 100%. And I'm a 12-step guy. I want to be very clear. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's, none of this is perfect. Totally. Yeah, I mean, I interviewed this lady in the book who had probably the most traumatic childhood, I think I've ever heard from somebody. You can read about her. Her name's Courtney. In the last day. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So her chapter's called Life Can Be Beautiful. So Courtney is on Suboxone and has been for years. And she's in 12-step and has been for years and has never told her sponsor that she takes medication for opioid use disorder because she doesn't want to be kicked out. She doesn't want to be told she's not clean. She doesn't want to have to start over. So she's keeping the secret from her sponsor. And like the thing is she gets so much out of the meetings. She gets so much out of 12-step recovery.

She's read the big book like, I mean, she's quoting it to me. She's gotten so much out of that. And she feels safe taking her medication. And like ultimately isn't the goal, like I talk about this in the book. The goal is not clean. or abstinent or whatever. The goal is like a productive, good, healthy, fulfilling, fruitful life. That's the piece we miss.

A 19-year-old comes into my care with a cannabis use disorder. And I see him again when he's 25. And he is no longer smoking cannabis or ingesting cannabis, however he was. People even smoke it anymore. I don't know. But he's... Has a couple drinks on the weekend. Married.

First kid on the way. Yeah. Good job. Like, I'd say we did a nice job with that case. 100%. That's a success story. That same case can come in. 19 years old is able to stop using cannabis.

But at 25, they've replaced it with alcoholism. There's not one way. And I think that's why it's hard. This whole thing is very hard. because there's lots of gray. And I think as people, we don't do well in that. We want a black and white answer. We want things to be like this or that. There's a, we, we love binary thinking. And I've talked to addiction medicine doctors who were like, if this person had like a severe opioid use disorder and they want to have a glass of wine, that's fine. I'm fine with that.

I'll take it. I'll take it if that means they're not using. heroin or fentanyl six times a day, right? Like, and my brother would grapple with us too. He'd be like, he'd be mad about it. He's like, I don't fucking have an alcohol problem. Why can't I have a beer? I think for him, he was like in a very delicate space and like there's a million reasons. Yeah, I struggle with that one.

Yeah, I bet. If you don't have an alcohol problem, then why is it so important that you drink? Right. Why are you holding on to that so hard? Yeah. So there's a lot of different. So what, so medication assistance treatment? I just don't think there's one size fits all, is what I'm saying.

And I'm with you. Yeah. And I think like that is like I've, I had this one guy, he's also in the book, this guy Jordan, who was like super 12 step abstinence guy like beating that drum so hard and then started learning more and more about harm reduction. And then ended up like going to treatment centers and like training the providers. about like medication. And this dude got into a fight, like was punched in a parking lot.

Because people get so upset about it. And these communities don't need to fight with each other. They really don't. There's enough. Right. Right. And that's where I get. And I think part of the, I posted something on my Instagram.

So we have this gala every year. It's our nonprofit. And NARCAM, we parted with them. We gave out Narcan to everyone leaving the gala. Oh, that's amazing. We got a note from a non-an attendee that took the Narcan and used it on someone outside of their building. It was like, this is why we do it. I have chills right now.

I just got goosebumps. So it's like amazing. That's incredible. But I'll put something like that on Instagram, you know, like or put it out there because I think it's important for these stories to be told. And people literally say, let them die. Well, that's the thing. It's like, it's like, okay, what's the alternative? You know what I mean?

And I say that in the book. It's like the old, what is the alternative? If you want to clutch your pearls around somebody calling an overdose detection hotline or something, what's the alternative? They just, they die? That's it. Then what are we talking about? Well, I don't think as humans, we're able to comprehend that harm reduction could actually be a pathway or a roadway or a roadway or a, you know, bridge to 12-step recovery.

Exactly. Or to therapy. Exactly. Or to DBT. Keep people alive long enough to want it themselves, right? Like, yeah, that's the thing. Because what happens, right? Like, what do I see?

Someone comes into our program and says, 12 steps are called. I'm not doing it. You all see it? Cool. Right. That's not an excuse to do nothing. Right.

So you have your experience. And we're going to support three months later I walk into one of the residences and that same person sitting at the table like doing their 12 step work. Yeah. So it's like they just needed some autonomy. That's right. It just needed to be their idea. Totally. I just think there's a lot of tools at our disposal.

And that's what I want people to know. There's not one way. There are many ways. You know, this is this is treatable. This is not a foregone conclusion. This is not a death sentence. If you could build Harris's treatment plan today, what would that look like? I would have gotten him connected immediately with an addiction medicine specialist

that he could have a long-term relationship with while he, like, you know, it's interesting, like this one family that I've talked to over the years, he went to a methadone clinic, right? And like he would dose every day and, you know, and that's like how he, and he would go to therapy there. And also was like very religious and did a bunch of that stuff as well. And when he ended up relapsing a few years later, he went right back to the methadone clinic that was five minutes from his house. Like there is something really important, I think, about having services near you. That's why I kind of like going to some sort of rehab that's like in another state that's completely, completely outside of your world isn't actually helpful for when you come back into your world

where all the triggers are. Like there's something about outpatient treatment, you know, a recovery group that is local, that you build treatment resources into your life instead of going to a pristine bubble, and then when that pops, having nothing back where you actually need it. So I would have wanted him to have a doctor. I would want him to be on medication early on, at least. I'd want to make sure he understood harm reduction resources. I would want to make sure he knew that, like, using a loan wasn't safe, wasn't smart, like dangerous, call me, call a friend. And, you know, I would have, as a family member, wanted to understand that, like, relapse

is part of any disease life cycle. Any disease life cycle. Like, asthma, it's going to relapse. You know, diabetes, like, these are chronic illnesses. And, like, you don't get cured and then poof, it's cured forever. Like, that's good. You can treat it. And then it's going to, you're going to have a recurrence.

And so I think family members, I think it's helpful to know that. Like, a relapse doesn't mean that it's over. It just means that, like, the disease is doing its thing. And, like, we need to hit it a little harder, you know? We need to try another treatment. Like, I think that sort of frame is more helpful than using clean, period. It's like, it's going to be a process. It helps bring the temperature down a little bit.

Mm-hmm. The chaos for me in this work keeps a lot of people unwell. The family and the identified patient. It's the chaos. It's that cycle. And so when we say to a family member, like, hey, like, we're actually going to challenge you to do some work. And then when they start saying, I don't want to do it. Yeah.

I'll tell you this story. So one of our clinical folks left. This was about two years ago. And so I picked up our Wednesday night support calls. family support calls. I was just having fun with it. And I love, I mean, if I could do, if I could do direct care all day every day, I would. But yeah, I'm out there with the macro with you. That's right. And every week I would log on in the families, it's optional. It's optional. Uh-huh. Every week I would log on in these families, we love you. We love

release, which is the company and the program and your case manager. You're my therapist. I was like, wow, these people, we're like 10 for 10. Yeah. We're really good at this. Totally. And I went home and I started looking at the identified patient and the family and the families that were showing up to the call, their loved ones were doing really well. The families that weren't on that call. The loved ones were. Yeah. So these importance of doing this work.

Yeah. Well, and I, do you, are you familiar with invitation to change? Yeah, of course, ITC. So yeah, I went to like a two-day training. I've done it, yeah. And I thought it was so helpful. I mean, I went just, you know, for the book and for part of my research. But like, I never did any of that when my brother was sick, you know?

And like learning how to talk, learning how to not step on those like landmines. Because like the volume is so high. And like you said, the temperature is hot. It's just very hot. everybody is like at a 10. And so like it's like the way I compare it like when I was 15, I had this like totally kooky like acting teacher who taught me eye statements. She taught all of us like 15 I statements when you I feel. Like I learned that as a as a 15 year old and it like wired my brain so that when I get into like a conflict situation, I innately know to not go,

you suck. You're a fucking asshole. But when you don't show. up for blah, blah, blah, I feel abandoned or whatever, right? Like, you learn how to speak in ways that turn the temperature down. So I think, like, the ITC stuff was so helpful, would have been helpful. It wasn't because I didn't do it, but it would have been. Because when you, as a family member, see that your loved one is doing something that's dangerous and harmful, like if my kid, before he knows how to swim gets near a pool, I am leaping to my feet and grabbing him with a quickness. You know what I mean? Like, that is instinctual to protect the people that you love. And the way, like, when somebody's using drugs and like fucking living this life that is so

dangerous, you want to protect them. You want to grab them from the side of the pool. Like, I get it. I totally get it. And so you have to figure out how do I talk to them in a way that keeps us connected because all the shit we've learned about like, you know, get out of my life. Like, don't, you know, you can't have a relationship with me if you're using. Like, that stuff is actually not productive ultimately. Like, I get it. But, but like keeping that tether, keeping connection is actually, like, you asked me, like, what would I, like, that's what I would have done, I think. Yeah.

done your own work, making suggestions to him. Yes, done my own work. Found the language. Like cleaned up my shit, my side of the street so that I could like be there for him and not had the savior complex of like I need to save you. I need to like mandate how you move through this world. But like I'm going to support you. When my ex-wife kicked me out of the house for like in between treatments and it was the last time,

she booed me, she said, Zach, I. love you. I don't love this behavior. And I love myself more than both those things. So I'm going to ask you to leave it. And she said it in a way. It wasn't mean. It wasn't threatening. It wasn't in my face. I don't know where she got it. This was like 2011. Like it was from the top rope. And I just, I heard it. I knew. She was serious. And like the way she said it, you know, and that was the last night. And I go on to, you know, burn it down for like eight more months. but she was the first person in my life, I don't even call it a boundary, just to tell me the truth.

Yeah, that's right. And I think that's a good point too, because I think people think, well, if I stay connected, that means that I am laying down like a doormat. That doesn't mean you can't have boundaries. You absolutely can still have boundaries. So I think learning how to speak like your ex-wife did

is really helpful, actually. I'm really proud of you. I am. No, it's because there's people that don't do the work and don't heal. And then that becomes a real generational problem. Yeah. Well, I, thank you. I'm trying to get better at taking compliments.

So thank you. Me and you both. So last day, I'm going to make sure that people know about this book. I'm going to get into it myself. What else should people know about you today? How do we follow you? How do we stay in touch? How do we follow your work?

You can obviously support Lemonada Media. You can follow us on all the places you follow things. We're launching a new show this week, actually, Zasha Mamet's show, OMG Obsessed. Wow. If you were a girls fan, she played Shoshana on the show. Oh, wow. It is such a fun show. It's literally, it's my new favorite show.

So definitely like and subscribe that one. And then you can find me. online at Whittle Stephanie. I'm a very unsurious person, actually. This is, this is less of what you're going to see on the internet with me. If there was one episode of your podcast that you think people should listen to like one, what you think? Is that early on? Or what is that? Number 17, season one, last day, Dr. Gabor Matte, it's called trauma. And it's the episode that people still to this day tell me they go back and listen to again and again. It's like a, it'll break your head open. And that's a good introduction to you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you

want to listen to like the podcast, you have to go way back to season one. We started the show in 2019. And you can start from episode one. And Sarah Silverman and Aziz Ansari are on that first episode. And I would listen to the podcast first and you can hear all these voices. And then if you read the book, you'll sort of hear all these people again, but you can hear them when you read about them. I hate that we're just meeting, but I love that we're just meeting. Same. Well, now we're friends. Now we're buddies. Yeah. And I'm so glad for like all this stuff that you're doing. Like, it's incredible what you're doing. We're trying. Long term treatment. Yeah. That's the way. Getting people back into the world, letting them. It's like this whole, I mean,

we don't have time, but it's just like these people, these therapists say, like, don't date in the first year. Like, who made that up? Oh my God. Go on the date. Be uncomfortable. And like, come back and tell me that it was uncomfortable. 100%.

Oh my God. You're so, like, totally go on the date. Some therapist, like, made that up. That's what I'm saying. Like, you have to be in your life with the stuff. You have to figure out how to go on a date and have the thing. Like, it's all a big stew. People places.

Oh, okay. so people, my family, like you don't want me to, they're out for me to stay sober? Right. That's going to be tough. Yeah. It's going to be kind of hard here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. You're awesome, Stephanie.

You are too. Thanks for having me.