The Zac Clark Show - Love in Recovery | Michael Allio & Jade Chapman on Grief, Addiction and Second Chances

Episode Date: June 23, 2026

Michael Allio and Jade Chapman join me for a powerful conversation about grief, addiction, recovery, and the unexpected path that brought them together. Michael is a former contestant on The Bachelorette, author of the children's book Where the Wild Heart Grows, and co-founder of St. James Therapeutics, a company focused on advancing cancer treatment and care. He opens up about losing his wife, Laura, to cancer, raising his son as a single father, and the dependence on painkillers he developed in the aftermath of her death. Jade is a beauty entrepreneur, educator, and content creator whose work has inspired millions. She shares her journey with alcohol, the impact her sister's decade-long heroin addiction had on her family, and what finally led her to embrace recovery. Together, they discuss what it means to love someone through struggle, how recovery transformed their relationship, and why honesty, service, and community have become the foundation of their lives. In this episode, we discuss: Michael's experience with grief after losing his wife, Laura The opioid addiction he developed following her death Jade's journey with alcohol and recovery Her sister's battle with heroin addiction and long-term recovery Supporting a partner through sobriety Love, second chances, and starting over Raising children through loss, healing, and change Finding purpose through service and helping others Whether you've experienced addiction, loss, recovery, or simply the challenges of loving another person through difficult seasons, this conversation is a reminder that our past doesn't disqualify us from love – it often prepares us for it. Follow Michael Allio: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/michael_alliol4/⁠ ⁠https://thewildheartgrows.com/⁠ ⁠https://www.stjamestherapeutics.com/⁠ Follow Jade Chapman:⁠https://www.instagram.com/jadeywadey180/⁠ ⁠https://www.instagram.com/jadecomplexions/⁠ Connect with Zac ⁠https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/⁠ ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/⁠ ⁠https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark⁠ ⁠https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 ⁠⁠https://twitter.com/zacwclark⁠ If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Grief and the path to sobriety, they're so similar. You come to the conclusion, you can't have this anymore. And then afterwards, when you're going through sobriety, who am I without this? The identity. That's the same as grief. We are here with Michael and Jade. We may recognize Michael from season 17 a bachelorette. People connected with his openness around grief, fatherhood, and rebuilding life after

unimaginable loss. My wife and I, we were together for 16 years, and she passed. after a two-year battle with triple negative cancer. When I look at the two of you, you come with this whole story and this grief and addiction. I did not want to admit that I was an alcoholic. I saw the person that she could be, and she had the courage to say that she wanted to be sober.

Like, how do you guys manage to bring all that stuff together and make it work? All right, so we are here with Michael and Jade. I'm reading about you guys. So I see you come out and you say, like, 60s. days sober. Yeah. Right. And that I was like, I didn't know that like, it really wasn't like 60 days sober. It was just 60 days without a drink. Yeah. Yeah. He did it for me. Like, that's what people don't know, is that this guy right here is my ride or die. And I told him, I'm like, I can't have like alcohol, nothing in the house, you know, you hang out in a barbershop long enough. You're going to get a haircut.

Yeah. And he did it for me. And I'm like, when they wrote about you getting sober, I was like, geez, they're going to think that he has like a problem or something, but no. It was because recovery, like we're having our moment right now. More and more people are putting the drink down. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. It's a beautiful thing. And honestly, I mean, we were talking to people yesterday because we met up with some friends in the city and they're like, Mike, you want, you know, you want to drink? You want to do that? I was like, no. Like I gave it up. They're like, you're sober. And I was like, yeah, I'm doing it for support. And also, I feel great about doing this. It almost feels like the taboos going away. And the truth is, is like, if you look at a beer

and you look at her and you're going to say, choose one, you'd be a fool to choose something else. So, I mean, honestly, it was an easy decision for me to make. Yeah, I mean, I'm curious. So I love this couple. I love what you guys, two years, a couple years, right? You've been two and a half years, but we've known each other five years. Yeah, friends before. Our story goes way back. Cool. Yeah. So I guess, Michael, I'll start with you. Jade is six, I mean, six months right? now sober? Is that kind of? Oh, no. I've been, I've been in and out of sobriety for like five years. Okay. So when you met her, did you? I was not sober when I first met him. No. When I first met him, I was a party girl. Yeah. I know my party phase. Yeah.

But then after like a little bit, I think it was like maybe a year after we knew each other. I really picked my life up because of my sister. So, but yeah, you're going to ask him. Well, I want to get into your sister, but here's the thing. Like I, when I think about relationship, and love and addiction, substance abuse, however you want to frame it. When that comes to the surface, you have a choice, right? Like, you can run or you can lean in. And you made the decision to lean in. Can you talk about that?

I mean, for me, I always looked at Jade, even when she was kind of struggling with alcohol was, like, I saw the person that she could be, not trying to change her, but almost. trying to support her in a ways that she could almost get out of her way. And in the beginning, she had the courage to say that she wanted to be sober. Meanwhile, I'm being her partner, and I'm having a glass of wine at dinner, and I'm keeping up my same behaviors. And then it was almost like I had a light bulb go off. And it's like, I can't ask her to do this while I'm not walking this road with her. And for me, it was an easy decision. I didn't know how long it would last, but now it's almost embedded. It's embedded in our lifestyle. And it's brought us incredibly

closer. Did you, Jade, I mean, did you request that of him or do you allow him to come to his own? Yeah. I would say that like, now I was sober for many years. And then when we actually got together like two years ago, our relationship, like in the beginning was always rooted in just having fun, like, and parting, but not like crazy and chaotic. We love going to shows. And, you know, like, drinking is like our culture, like as a society. It's like really hard to not drink because everyone's just doing it. Right. And so I fell back into that telling myself that I'd be okay. And if you've done AA, then you know this. You try to do the beer. You try to do the wine. No, that doesn't work, I'll do the gin.

Yeah, light and dark liquor. I was like, I just want to be normal because I just love to have fun with him. Yeah. But every time I was just like, this is not for me. And I couldn't bring myself to ask him to not. And so I kept going and going, knowing that like I was going downhill. And I was just too afraid to make that lifestyle change until the day we finally did. Because of what it might represent to the masses or to yourself?

No, I've never really cared about the outside. side optics. I mean, our lifestyle is just rooted in home, providing a good environment for James. I mean, once you go through the reality TV world, you learn to be able to separate the reel from the fake and what's important and what's not. And this was the most important thing. And so, you know, I jumped, I jumped in because I never want her to feel alone. I know if I was in that situation, I wouldn't want to feel alone. And you have to be able to walk these things together. Yeah, for those listening, so the reason Michael and I connected initially, because we were kind of cast, kind of, we were cast members on The Bachelorette. Michael's story is a powerful one.

You have James, who is how old now? Nine. Nine. And James lost his mom. 2019, so when he was two years old. And you've been very open about grief and kind of grief recovery and working through that. Yeah. I guess my, when I look at two of you, right, like you come with this whole story and this grief and we'll call it baggage for what it is for lack of a better word and then jade you're over here like in this in this you have a sister who's you know struggled you yourself have questions you're drinking at times like how do you guys manage to bring all that stuff together and make it work i mean that's what brings us together yeah like i feel like the i cannot have shallow conversation where you go better with me let's do it yeah yeah like let let's talk it out no surface level

But when we first met, like, that's how we bonded. You know, I was, like, so touched by this guy being so vulnerable and going on TV and sharing all this. And I'm like, if I can meet a guy like that, like, even just as a friend. Yeah. And that's how it was for a really long time. Like, we'd talk and it just would be deep stuff, like trauma bonding, you know? Yeah.

Trust me. Well, just shared experience. That's, like, just your point. You know, that's recovery, like shoulder to shoulder. Yes. Like, what happens when one alcoholic shares with them? another alcoholic, like we recover together. It's the deepest connection.

Yeah. Like, truly. Like, my, like, sobriety sisters and sponsor and anyone that I meet that has, like, gone through recovery or the program, I always say, like, they are the strongest people. Oh, amen. Because they have literally dug themselves into the ground and have chosen to rise up. Yeah. Yeah.

I was telling Jay this earlier is sometimes she asked me to accompany her to the meetings. And I absolutely love it. It feels as though when I'm there, just the most unsuspecting people have the best knowledge that you can't get anywhere else. And to me, when I'm there, it feels like that's what church was supposed to be. Yeah.

Like that's what religion was supposed to be. About people, the humble, the beaten up, the people that have faced challenges, sharing openly and honestly without judgment and people growing together, growing stronger together, mentoring and holding each other accountable. I'm being of service, man. Service, absolutely. It's just such a, it's such a beautiful thing. After meetings, we usually stay up the latest.

Drinking coffee. Chugging coffee. That becomes the sober life thing. I mean, coffee all the time. But we stay up incredibly late, just diving into philosophy and all these things. and unpacking things that we've been through. How do you represent yourself in the meeting? Do you say you're there for support?

Support. Yeah. But I'm always talking to. I'm like, I pop in. He does. Like, honestly, he's come to like all my milestones. He'll like talk and just like, blah, blah, la, la, about his own wisdom and everyone's touched.

Well, I find everybody just so inspiring. There's something that, there's something just real and authentic and that I think a lot of people are starved for. You know, it's something you can talk. and feel the moment you get in there, the moment that you have enough courage to bet on yourself again. I mean, can we talk about the fact that you live in Akron and you move to Akron and like the birthplace of Ackren? Right. Well, that's the thing. I do have to say this. Like, there's many different times in my life where I've realized I'm in the right place, right time.

And I've always felt like in our friendship and when he came back into my life that it was totally right. And then when I realized that I could throw a rock at any corner and see an AA meeting because it was created there. Yeah, for people that's, so Akron, Ohio is the birth, but really the birthplace of AA and that's where they live. Dr. Bob. His house is like not far from mine. No. No. It's just like, it's meant to be, man. Because I did sobriety cold turkey for five years. That's no fun. I never was part of the program or anything. Yeah. When did you know, so your sister has struggled with a heroin addiction. Now she's, I get seven or eight years clean. Is that? Yeah. So it's kind of like, I'll make it the Reader's Digest. Yeah. No, that's whatever version

works for you. I grew up in San Diego and I have a sister and two brothers. Classic American family, hardworking parents, everything. They literally gave us everything. And my sister, she got involved with the wrong people and a boyfriend gave her heroin when she was 15. This, just started a whole addiction that lasted literally a decade. Do you have it in your family? I do. So my mom's side of the family, there's a lot of drug use that has gone on. So I know that it's like, it's in our bloodline, okay?

And I mean, I can make anything in addiction. This is my addiction now. Yeah. But my sister, you know, that tore my family apart. Like that made me go even more wild because I just, I didn't know how to function and deal with all those emotions. And seeing my parents put all their money. So what you're doing here, it touches my soul so much because my parents poured all of their savings, like hundreds and thousands of dollars into her going to all these recovery homes.

So expensive. And she would just run away. She'd go missing. And for a long time, we couldn't find her. So she was homeless. And then I was living in LA. I had to move forward with my life. But I constantly was checking on my parents because I'm just like, they were like dead,

you know, because when you have one child struggling. Yeah, they say you're only as healthy as you're sick as child. I mean, that's really good. And they were very sick. Yeah. And that broke my heart because I didn't know what to do to like help them. So yeah, I got a random call. I was living in L.A. for many years.

I had a partner at the time. And she called me and I was like, hello. And you know how you're always waiting? Well, you may be on the other end. your parents or someone you love is always waiting to get a phone call middle of the night. Yeah. Are they alive or are they dead? Yeah.

So she was alive and she's like, I need you. And I was like, I don't know if I could like ever come here, man. Like this is going to mess up all my stuff. But I did. Like I was like, come live with me. Jade is being very humble, by the way, for the listener. She's built an incredible business and platform and following. And so you should be proud.

So your stuff is meaningful and you have to protect that. I mean, like, yeah. Well, no, that's not what I was worried about. And more so was like, I didn't want her to kill my vibe. Like, I was a party girl at the time. No, having my sister come in. Then I had to hide things, which I did for a little bit. But, yeah, long story short, she came in and moved with me.

And I was like, I got to teach her everything. Because when you become an addict at 15, you stunt your growth. I mean, she didn't know how to clean for herself, cook for herself, never had a job. So I brought her on as my assistant. I sent her to hair school. While she was actively using. Well, luckily, COVID happened. Oh, wow.

And, like, I was, like, great. Like, I had thoughts in my mind, do I, do I chain her to the bed? No. She can't leave. But then COVID happened when she was stuck with me. But I said to her, the only way you're going to stay here is if you join a program, like, immediately. So she joined N.A. And had you know, like, where did you know about, how did you know about N.

Is it just in the back of your mind? Oh, man, dude. Like, just over the 10 years of like dealing with her going in and out of houses and what's fascinating to me how people are exposed to this thing because it's so stigmatized, right? Yeah, totally. But yeah, so she got into a program and they literally became her family. Like I always say, like people always say to me, I saved her life. No, I didn't.

She saved her life. And those people saved her life. I just gave her at home, you know. gave her a safe place to land. Yeah. What's that idea? Like support without actions, nothing. Right.

You know. But yeah, she did it every single day. She had no mess-ups, nothing. She met her husband there. She's married now. She bought her first house. She's a hairstylist in Texas. I literally get chills because, like,

I never thought that I would be able to get to see her like that. And she's now everything that I imagine for her and more. And how is she? I talk about it without getting emotional. No, it's beautiful, please. What impact has she played in your recovery? It goes back to the thing of I thought I was saving her. I thought I was doing this for my parents, but she saved me because when she first came in,

I was being stubborn. I was like hiding alcohol in the cupboards when she was asleep. I'm feeling like, and just all the stuff, you know? And then I was like, how kind of like what you said, like how can I be. a good support if I'm not even living all the things that I'm telling her to do. And so I cut it off cold turkey. I was like, I didn't want, this was the thing that kept me from going to meetings. I in my mind, which is in the first step, like did not want to admit that I was an alcoholic. I was just like, I'm not like my sister. I'm not an addict. Whatever. I didn't want to have the label

because when you do the label, that makes it real. And so I would just be like, I'm just going sober and I did that for five years or so and then when I got back with this guy I was like let me just try again I think it's been enough time no and that's when I had to admit it like I had gone in and out of meetings and stuff but never like this and it's the best thing ever did and so you guys meet in 2021 as friends and maintain contact and assume you're dating other people and the timing's not right or tell me a little bit about the love story yeah i mean you tell this one i think he always messes the best it's the five the five the five years it's we met online just dms she's she sent me on i'll say yeah go for it you take it away i i messaged him so i i didn't really watch the show

like my sister was actually living with me they never do do it was no one ever watches no but it was When COVID was happening and she was getting well and she was watching it and I see him on the TV and he's talking about Laura. And I was so touched by the way that he talked. Laura, by the way, is your late wife. And I was like, if I could just meet a man that loves me the way that this man loves her, I would be happy forever. And then the next day, I could have stopped thinking about him. And I was just, I was just like, wow, I'm going to send him a message. I'm just going to get this straight.

I'm going to send it to him. So I sent a message and I was just like, I just have to know who you are. Like it's no weirdness. We don't have to date, whatever. I would just like to be your friend. I feel like we would vibe. And then I sent him a playlist. Yeah.

I was like, if you like this, let me know. Well, it's on the playlist. I need to know. Oh, man. That's our love language. And especially when we had a long distance relationship, our entire relationship is the playlist. Songs.

So I screw up. I say something. Before I know it, there is a, you know, sad song in there immediately. Then I'm over. Yeah. Yeah, then I'm over, like, analyzing every single lyric in these songs. But, I mean, we music's our life, man. Like, we're into literally everything.

She just bought me a tool tickets for my birthday. Yeah. So we're going to go see two. Yeah, I'm going to go see a tool. But it's a full list. In Akron. No. Columbus.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I drive a little bit. But no, I messaged him, and then we got to talking. And we already knew the.

distance was going to be an issue. I have a full business, a spa in LA. I'm not moving to Ohio. Yeah. And he's all the way over there. And like, honestly, like, I really just loved him so much as a person. And if I wasn't the one to make him happy, I was okay with someone else, like, making him happy. So we said friends. She's the sweetest, man. I'm telling you. We stayed friends for a long time. And like, I dated someone else for like three years, like super serious relationship. And you and often did your thing. And we just always. vibes about this is like my like twin like I'm like the female version of him so everything we liked with is the same and it was just nice to not have to like best friends yeah yeah that's so

beautiful and and so during that friendship did you share with him about your drinking or was it more service yeah when you first I just I guess I'm trying to focus in on like like double click on like Michael like this idea that there's a lot of partners out there that struggle when someone gets sober, when they're still drinking, it's hard to be the partner of someone in recovery. I mean, like it just is. And so for you, this idea that this is your partner and this is your person, you had to commit to. I mean, to each their own, mine is how can you love someone, like truly love them, not just love them when they are doing things that are convenient in your life,

but truly love them unconditionally. Like, it's a matter of fact that you have to walk their path and you have to grow with them. I mean, I experienced that kind of commitment with Laura. And quite frankly, I have this idea that I don't think is spoken about so much, but grief in the path to sobriety, they're so similar. I mean, when I go to the AA meetings or read Dr. Bob or any look at those steps, I mean, they could honestly be the steps to help people grief because, you know, what happens? You know, you're an addict.

So the thing that you love so much, the only thing that you think about is the drug, the crutch, when things get hard, the thing you lean on, all of those things, you're social, all of that. Then all of a sudden, you come to the conclusion, you can't have this anymore. That's the same as grief. And then afterwards, when you're going through sobriety, who am I now? Who am I without this? The identity that shifts. You know, what am I going to become? All of those questions that happen on the pathway to bettering yourself through sobriety are the very similar struggles that grief has as well. And I really haven't seen too much of that link,

but I think that there's something very strong there because I've experienced both, like personally. And so I... Did you ever, when Laura passed, did you ever turn to booze? Yeah, actually, and this would be the first time I'm talking about it. On the outside, I was like the strong martyred death. you know, how are you holding all this stuff together?

And this, I got used to that because for a lot of reasons, partly because I just had to, when you're a caregiver and you're dealing with someone that is fighting for their life, you have to be the strong one and you have to suppress your emotions. You have to just get them to the next scan or the next doctor's office. And I knew she was passing a year before she did. I mean, I saw it in the doctor's eyes. I have a medical understanding of cancer and scans and all that. But I'd never tell her that.

So it's like I carried that. And then all of a sudden, you know, she passes away. And here I am with a two-year-old. I mean, she was diagnosed when James was seven months. So it's so sad because she would have been the greatest mother too, is that she really didn't get that chance to raise James. And so after she passes away, I was just lost, man. And my addiction wasn't alcohol.

Over the course of her two years of chemotherapy, she had accumulated a large stockpile of painkillers. And for me, that was the easy way to escape the pain. And it was, I could be highly functional on it. It was secret. No, they work. Yeah, they definitely work. And that was my drug of choice. And I was running away from the pain so much that, you know, I just lived maybe a year or so completely numb.

And it got to the point where when you live that numb, disconnected life, you almost miss the pain. Because at least the pain makes you feel alive. The disconnection is such a, I'm not part of this world anymore. Nothing brings me joy. Nothing brings me sadness. Everything is just steady. And so what happened, I mean, I'm talking about powerful ones like Dilaudid. Yeah, of course, OxyContin, a lot of.

Yeah, hydromorphine. Yeah. Yeah. And what I ended up doing was I got really, really worried because I didn't like where my life was headed. I didn't like the dad I was going to be for James. And so I literally had James go, and I don't recommend this, but I had James go to his mother-in-laws in Michigan, locked myself in my bedroom for a week,

and just got sick, purged, sweat, and, you know, that can be really dangerous too. So I don't recommend that for people. but I was just like I can't let this define my life anymore. And in so many ways, just being removed from it, it's giving me a new appreciation for life for everything. So when this gem comes around, you know, it's an easy decision for me because I've been at the bottom too in silence, suffering, just like everybody. And so when I draw the comparisons between grief and addiction, it's because I have had both. And, you know, there's just light at the end of the tunnel.

It's amazing how open you guys are talking about past relationships and just it's a beautiful because there's an energy there, right? Like he's got this prior existence and you just shared about a relationship that you had. And I think it's really healthy to see you guys just being willing to lean into it and say like, in this moment in time, we love each other. and that's what's most important. Yeah. I've never found him if it wasn't for seeing him talk about Laura.

I'm like raising James and though I do like consider him me, my son. Like he also is her son, you know? And I've always respected her so much and looked up to her. Like I pray to her all the time when I want guidance. Yeah, she holds amazing space for the life that we, have one we have to keep very much alive for for love and also for my son our son our son yeah that's amazing that's amazing yeah you know it man I mean that yeah that opioid withdrawal that's like real that's real only yeah he's never talked about that ever by

the way he told me that five years ago and he told me I was the first person who's ever told And so for you to like say that, man, like, it's just really big because you were asking, oh, how do you support? But like an addict knows an addict, you know? And like that's why we, we know that we both have addict mentality. Yeah. We could put that into work. We could put that in fitness. But like it's all about having good balance.

And sometimes that's like completely fucked. Like sometimes it's just so off balance. But if you have true sobriety and an under. understanding and a respect. Yeah. We can get through it. Absolutely. I mean, Jade, your career as a makeup artist and asked, I mean, like, do you, do you think

you've benefited from having a little bit of the addictive? No, the, I mean, like, you're, I think you're right. Like, addicts are very smart. We're very talented. We, when we focus on something, we typically can fixate. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm just curious how that's kind of, how you've seen that show up in your work.

I mean, I think in the past, it was. was that it like hindered me because being in the beauty industry, especially at such a young age, I mean, I've been in the industry for 17 years. Wow. I got involved in the beauty space and started my business when I was 18. So I really haven't worked for anyone else but myself. But that's also a bad thing because when you're really struggling and you're a silent Struggler because I never let anyone know even though like they knew but no one is going to tell

me that because I'm like I'm fine um in living in Hollywood is probably the worst place for someone like me to live the worst I mean I moved there when I was like 24 lived right on Hollywood Boulevard just used to hit all the dive bars and streets I just was out there all the time but the beauty space like it's constantly events everything is a about, like, partying and, like, having a good time. And so the fact that I couldn't be normal, that always frustrated me. Yeah. Because I just wanted to be normal.

And you know what I mean by that? I do. But we're not. We're not. I, it's an interesting conversation. Yeah. I think my first year was hard. Yeah.

And after that, I actually welcomed being around it because it was a reminder of what I don't want to be. Yeah. And I got to that place pretty quickly. and I feel grateful for that. Yeah. That was like my early stages. What do you say?

What do you say to the young girl out there that's trying to make a career and trying to be out there, but also acknowledges that they might have a problem with drinking or other behaviors? I mean, like I was saying, that it was a hindrance because the moment that I got sober, and I've always been this way of like put like a horse with blinders on, especially with my career, never looking outwards because once I started to look outwards, I'd start to compare. I'd start to diminish myself. feel less confidence and that's when I really would use more because I'd be like I'm horrible and for me alcohol was like it was self medication because I was so depressed and so sad that like

if I self-medicated like that I'd feel better when in reality I always felt worse but I could I just couldn't stop it but as far as like advice for other people like the light on the other side and like the confidence and the energy and just the like blessings that come. Like you know this. Like you've lived it. Once you're on the other side, you can see like the magic and the blessings and everything. And they keep flooding it, you know? Yeah, but when you're in a trenches.

Oh my gosh. It's just hopeless. Everything is bad. Yeah. It's bad. But I just. Yeah, let me hype my girl up real quick. Okay.

She does herself injustice all the time. That's why I love about her. She's humble. But this woman, like, carved a path for herself by herself, like started this whole career. Like, you created a brand new imaging career path literally from nothing. I mean, she was, she was married early on. That was Mormon. Yeah. Married. Yeah. And moved to Utah. then that wasn't, the love wasn't what she wanted and ended up leaving with next to no money, moving to L.A. and starting this incredible career for herself. And like I just, I admire all of the hard work that you have put in and how humble you remain,

despite the fact that by all measurable levels, that would be. be like the most successful career for anybody out there. But like it's, you continue to impress me every single day, even after five years and knowing each other. You're remarkable, not just as a beauty influencer, but as a person. She shows up from my son in the most amazing ways. And for the longest time, it's like I have just this quiet house. And it's like, when is it going to get noisy again? When's it going to get, when's it going to feel like a home again? With the mess and the noise and all of that and the, you know, scratches on the floor and on the wall.

And it's there now. And it's the most beautiful sound I can ever hear when my son gets. off the bus, dude. He runs in the door and says, where's Jade? Right past me. And do you remember what I said right in the beginning? I said, I will know that this is right when he runs to you and stops asking for me. I'll know it's right when I enter a room when you guys are talking and you guys tell me to leave. That happens all the time now because the kid, the kid deserves an amazing mom and she has shown up for that and it's so much adjustment everybody thinks they are grown you do not know what it takes until you wake up every morning and you have a life to take care

of the pressure and and all of that it's it's remarkable and you've you've risen to the challenge in every every which way yeah what i'm hearing is, you know, two humans that have, there's something that happens in recovery that you know. Yeah. We live these crazy lives and we experience, yeah, and we experience pain and we think we want to be something that we really don't. And then all of a sudden we get sober and things get quiet and it's like, oh, wow, this is, this is what life is really all about. That moment you just described, it's going to be better than any television experience or new makeup line or whatever the thing is, right? like any amount of money.

Yeah, it's it. And, you know, I think maybe you agree with this. Everybody is so focused on what's next. Yeah. That they're never fully present in the moment. The difference between what you want today versus actually receiving it, in between, that's just the wilderness of life and it's uncomfortable. And people want to avoid that.

But that time between what you get and what you want and what you get, like, that's life. Like, because once you get something, you're on to the next thing. Yeah. On into the next wilderness of your life. And it's, we, I don't know, we need to embrace those seasons. We need to embrace the pain. We need to sit with it. Know that it's okay.

Oh, we do welcome it. Well, I mean, I think it's the best learning mechanism you can have. For me, I'm excited for you guys to continue on this journey because there's a lot of people talking about mental health right now. There's a lot of people talking about substance abuse. And some of them haven't necessarily lived it. You know, and that can be slippery slope. What are your thoughts on that? Because you go online and everything is flooded with mental health, self-improvement, all of this. Everyone's reaching for this heightened, better version of themselves. And not everybody has the degrees or the expertise to be able to give this.

What is your thought on the landscape? Yeah, I mean, look, that's why I asked Jade, like, what you would tell the young gal out there because I feel like in this particular subset of health care, like the big book, A.A., like when you talk about efficacy and what works and what continues to work, I mean, Harvard did the study. I didn't, right? Community, human experience, shared experience. Service.

service, prayer, meditation. These are all things that AA doesn't own that stuff. They were around well before Bill and Bob got together. I was doing all that stuff before too. Like even with my beauty space to like speak to the question that you asked as far as like people in the beauty or even outside of that. Like when I first started in my career, it was all about like perfection and showing makeup and covering. it was very much the opposite of like accepting your own beauty, whatever it is, scars and all, right? And then after I got sober, I was so, I was so miserable with who I was and who I turned myself into while I was drinking and living in L.A.

And I was putting out this image that was so not me. And you knew that. Yeah, just fraudulent. So I completely rebranded like my social and I was like, I want to start a series on YouTube that focuses on my ascetician craft. So like doing facials, but it involves meditation, affirmations, like all those healing things that helped me on my sober journey and really got more into the mind because the mind is where you feel beautiful. And that just like goes outward. And that thing took off and it just made me feel better

that I was putting something out into the world with all these people that I'm influencing. Like, I don't want any children to look at my stuff and be like, oh, that is like how I need to be. You know, I wanted them to look at it and feel moved. And like, I mean, you know, I'm teaching James like about like meditation and yoga. Oh, yeah.

All the stuff right now. He's nine years old. Yeah. Self-care expert. At this point in your career, like, and at newly sober, you talk about service, how are you approaching the next generation in terms of wanting to mentor and bring people along?

I mean, because your story has... I wouldn't say newly sober. I will just say... Well, because you've been around. Okay, right, right, right, right. But I know, when you go out again, you got it. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, how do I want to influence, like, the next?

I mean, honestly, this is the first time in quite a while that I'm like talking about it again. But it never was like a thing that I was like afraid to speak on. It just was like, I was keeping it really sacred. Yeah. Because the community that I've built within my home now, like I really have made Akron my home.

That is something I know people are always shocked. I'm smiling because I love it. I love it. Like I, but the thing is I always felt at home there. Always. When I like visited there. two years ago, never had really been to the house.

Yeah. I'm telling you, Zach, I walked in the house and I said, I've lived here before. I had a feeling. But I like get these like premonitions of stuff and they usually happen. But Akron has become my home because it's just so authentic and real. Like everything that I've built there has just been true. And it's transformed me in so many different ways and expanded my heart. and I have friends in recovery and outside of it.

But I will say the best friends that I've, you know, just built and, like, let into my life are the ones from the rooms. Yeah. Like, I have a mentor. This guy, Dave, I want to shout him out. Oh, yeah. What's up Dave? But he's like, you know, he's been, he what, got like 40-something years sober? Oh.

And I'm so much, I listened to him the first time I said in the rooms. And I came up to him, I said, you're going to keep me here. Like every time you speak, it touches my soul. And the friendships are developed so fast because there's no bullshit. No bullshit. And I don't have space for that. No surface level stuff. Straight to the depth.

We've been through hell. Yes. Yeah. Join us. Yeah. Join us. That's it. Amen.

Michael, how do you hold on to this? How do you hold on to this thing that I'm seeing right here in front of me? What is that? Tightly. Me? The whole thing. I mean, you guys have a special connection. And I'm like seeing it.

And I just relationships are work, you know? And it's just. Everything that you love is. Yeah. But nothing was going to keep this, like, apart. Like. When he came into my life and, like, actually told me, hey, I think that there is something here. And I was like, okay, it was instant.

Yeah, I came in like a wrecking ball. Yeah. I saw the note. I was like doing the Instagram research. And I saw like this little note that you wrote her about being a light and I love you until the end of time. I was like, oh my gosh. No, I basically, I did a lot of like. soul searching and she was she made such an impact on me she was always in my mind like in my heart

like in my gut and I ignored it sometimes and then I came back into her life I went to L.A. and was like hey you want to just meet up for for a coffee a drink do something she sits down and I said I love you and I'm going to marry you and just seen him in years bombed him bombed, came in, guns, blazing. That's my style. Like, I'm telling you, I was just like, I know it. And if you bet on me, I promise we'll have the best life in the world. And I moved mountains to get to him. Yeah. Yeah. I stayed in L.A. for one year. I said, so it was a year of long distance. I said, let me stay here for a year. I had to, like,

move my sister out, everything. And I just wanted to be, like, focused on me if I was preparing to come into his life, not only for him, but for James. Yeah. Because that is a massive massive step. Of course. Close my spa, everything that I've built in L.A. For the last 10 years. But it was never a question. Like literally, I was like, when he said that, I was like, yeah, I could see it.

Because I've been married before. And I was too young to know. When was that? I was 18. You got to marry it 18. Yeah. 18, 19. And that lasted for a while.

But if I know something isn't right, I'm going to keep going forward. And with him, like once he said that, there was no question. It always felt right. So I could close all that and be fine if I've got him. Yeah. I mean, after I said that, we spent a year long distancing. I mean. I was literally there almost every two weeks.

Yeah. Yeah. It was like until the point where we couldn't be apart from each other because it hurt too much. Yeah. And then moving her in the house, it was, it was beautiful. and there was also so much learning and adjustments. Yes.

I mean, a ton of it. And you asked me about like work and how you hold on to it. It's the grass isn't greener on the other side. Find something that you love and hold on to it and serve it. It's not that complicated. Commit to something, promise something, be a person or your word, and hold that true. that what I just said, it's so ingrained in, and she'll agree, it's so ingrained in my identity that when I said that, it wasn't off the cuff. I'd been thinking that for a long time.

And whether or not before I said, hey, I'm going. Based on the interactions or a feeling? No, when we like connected again and he called me and we were chatting a little bit. Yeah. And it was, it was basically like my gut in my heart, it's chosen you. It's just that simple. And everything else in between is just details. Are you spiritual? Are you spiritual religious guy? Or what is your? Yeah. I mean, very. It's, it's, I grew up in the Catholic Church. I have my qualms with it. But there's definitely a higher power. And I do think, I do think if anything God talks to you, in the gut because a gut reaction and a gut feeling is unlike anything else. It's almost hard to describe, isn't it? It almost feels like otherworldly. And so when it's telling you your gut, then you should listen to it, trust your gut, and don't

let your mind convince you otherwise. And then once you make a decision, own it, like stick with it because everything else is just details, the hardest part's finding the connection and someone you want to go into war with with with life and ride the ups and downs and then once you have that you just serve it well i mean it was the leading question for me because i think there's a lot of partners out there that struggle they struggle as they watch their partner however there's i'm not going to talk about substance abuse whatever it is in life you know they they they have their moments and partnership is really about being there when it's tough like when the one is tough.

But that's, and you've been through it, man. I mean, like your experience, like your grief, like you. Well, that's, you know, the, the tough, the tough things, I mean, and I've learned this the hard way.

They, they don't need, they shouldn't be avoided. Like, that's actually where the intimacy happens, is when you overcome something together. And you're on the other side. I mean, look at happily married couples, that, that raise families.

They go through firings, paying bills. struggling together and they're on the other end of it saying, oh my God, we are inseparable because you were there for me. I was there for you for thick or thin through the whole thing. It has to be unconditional. Like, it just has to be that because everybody shouldn't feel like they have to perform in order to find and receive love and all of that. Yeah, that word, that word intimacy. Like when you're drinking, that word, you trick yourself into thinking that I can't be intimate if I'm not drunk or I can't.

Oh, yeah. I can't go out if I'm not, you know, cocktail on your own drugs or whatever it is. Then you have this new experience when you're sober. It's like, oh, this is what it's really supposed to be like. We've been going to weddings now, completely sober. We're always like, how are you doing? I'm having the best conversations ever.

And that never happened at weddings. Before all you know, like my shirts is off, tie around the head on the dance floor. It was a long time ago, babe. It's another episode. But it's like you actually get more depth with people. and that becomes the new addiction is diving deeper and connecting with people that share this earth with you. It's a beautiful thing. I'm happy for you guys.

Oh, thank you. I really am. And it's such a gift to have you guys in here and share the space with you. And I feel it really in this moment. I'm just really grateful for it. Tell me a little bit about the book. Tell me a little bit about what we need to know about. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So it's called Where the Wildheart grows. It actually wasn't meant to be a book at all. When Laura passed away, I'm basically sitting there looking at James being like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know how to bridge conversations about grief, about loss, about all of these things that are going on. And so at bedtime, we started, we read stories. It's like the only time in the day where everything quietes down. And, you know, I remember just dragging myself up the stairs.

being like, oh, God, I got to put this kid to bed. But then the second I laid down to them, it's like this was exactly where I was meant to be. This is like fatherhood, the most beautiful part of it because everything, you know the feeling. And I wrote all of these stories. There's seven interconnected stories that all take place in nature. We talked earlier about seasons of life and appreciating seasons. Who knows that better than nature? About growing, about shedding, about winter, about thorn.

you know, about new growth that all exists in lessons of nature. And so there's seven interconnected stories that aren't meant to preach. We need some critical thinking out there. For kids, they're going to see, they're going to see a squirrel that sees a beautiful sunset that wants to grab the sunset because it's the most beautiful thing they've seen, put it in their pocket and keep it for themselves. But the scroll will find out that the most beautiful things in life are meant to be shared. They're meant to be experienced. An adult reading that, knowing that you can't hold on to the sunset, that may help them with grief. And so it's a book written for both parent and child because there's universal themes here. You still can't convince me

that there's a difference between growing up and growing old. It is the same process. And adults are supposed to be, parents are supposed to be these experts. We have no idea what we're doing. None of us. And you don't realize that until you become one. And that's really what this book was about was an easy way for me to be able to bridge conversations.

So if there's a question about, hey, you know, holding on to grudges, right? There's a story about the blackbird and the stones. And the blackbird is holding on to all the stones ever thrown at him, but essentially it's keeping the bird from flying. And so if I talk to James about, you know, have you ever held a grudge? No, fine. You know, how was your day? Good. Would you do nothing? You know, but at bedtime, if I say, let me read you this story. like have does does the experience that the blackbird is going through have you know have you known anybody that's done that have you experienced that if you were the blackbird's friend how would you give them advice so that's the way to get into the kid's head because once once the walls are

down the truth comes out nobody listens when people lecture you know they immediately have their wall up that's not me or that doesn't affect me that's uncomfortable but if you make it about a story, it opens up the conversation. Yeah, the story. Yeah, and so that's really all what the book is about. It's an amazing book, Zach. I sat there the whole time while he was making it from the beginning to the end and being able to see the whole thing and the art.

I mean, knowing this guy for so long, I always was, I've always said this to him from the moment I met him. You are the best person I've ever known. Thank you. And the wisdom that he has just accumulated. over just living so many centuries, because I always tell him you're like an old old. Many lives, many lives.

Things that you should not have gone through. But he has a different perspective. Because when you go through loss, like I've always was so inspired by the way that you have said, start at death and work back once. Because it just gives you a different perspective of life and you're just so much more present. And I think that's the thing that gets ever.

everyone really. Yeah. But we don't talk about death enough. I mean like, I mean like it was just, it's going to happen to everybody. So here's what that looks like, right? You ask somebody, you know, what do you want in your life? You start fumbling, right? A little bit, like you got a clear idea that you want.

It immediately goes to happiness, but happiness is a fleeting feeling. You're happy, you're sad, that's part of life. You know, peace is really the measure that we should all be seeking and acceptance and enjoy. and enjoying this journey. But if I were to ask you, for example, what do you not want to regret? And you start living your life with the end in mind because when you spend months on the oncology floor

and you go room to room and you talk to people, there is so much overlap as to what's important. The truth is there. The quality is there. And they will tell you how to live a complete life by avoiding what you will eventually regret. Yeah, chasing the things that I chased for many years. Yeah.

Sex, drugs, rock and roll, you know. That's that. Yeah, that's right. How do we get it? How do we get it? So we're specifically, it's a very old world book. It's written, old world. Each, there's illustrations on there that was actually done by a professional painter,

Luke Streeter. His son's in James' class. I mean, his paintings go for $6,000. And he gave me 35 original oil on canvas images for this book. It's very old world. We decided to go through independent bookstores and sold online just to pay homage all the mom and pops out there doing yeomen's work. And so you can get it on the wildheartgrows.com.

And it's on presale right now. So delivery around June. We'll dial up a bunch of copies for the office and make sure we share. Yeah, no, I hear you guys are doing. and you're here for our gal tonight, which is going to be a fun. Let's have some fun. It's going to be a blast.

Yeah, you're going to get to see it. I mean, like, it's recovery, loud and proud. Like, I love what you guys are doing. I love the fact you've used your platform for good. Yeah. As well, man. Yeah, I mean, I see it. Like, you know, it's like you,

your feed gives you what you seek, you know, and I see you out there, like, really carrying a message of depth and weight. Yeah. This makes sense to me. Yeah. It's not, no surprise. It passes the check, right? Yeah.

No, I mean. He brought me home. You are my home, baby. I mean, he's, I love the way that he has turned his pain into just his power and helping other people and bringing me to Akron. Now I'm doing facials for, I'm part of a non- Yeah, I was going to ask you, I was going to finish there and just see how, how you're transitioning and what life looks like.

It's amazing. I basically moved this fall into our house. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look at this skin, right? He looks like this. I will pay credit, Zach. Yeah. But, and also sobriety.

Yeah. The glove. Yeah, it does. But just with the connections that I've made in Akron, I'm part of this nonprofit called the Healing Sanctuary. And they give full treatments completely for free to people and women that have experienced cancer. And I was touched by that through his story.

And so I donate all my services. I do facials for all the women. And it's monthly. I mean, making these people feel like human again and beautiful again when everything around them changes. And she has healing hands and I've seen it at work. These people feel like themselves again. It's your services. Thank you.

It's more than facials. It's an experience. Of course. I'm going to expand it, by the way, to addiction. That's awesome. That's awesome. That means a lot to me. Yeah.

So that's cool. I mean, like, look, you know how it is. Like when these guys or girls come in, they get their first new pair of shoes or their first. Yeah, man. They're like, they start to feel themselves a little bit. Yeah, everything changes. It's like, let's go. This is why you're doing.

This is it. Let it begin. I'm going to be rooting for you guys, for real. Thank you. Thank you. For you both, your happiness is your success. Yeah. So, and I appreciate you.

I really grateful that you're sharing the space with us today and just meaningful. And we're going to have some fun tonight. Yeah. Thanks for coming. Yeah. Thanks for all you doing. Yeah, rooting for you too, buddy. Congrats.

Yeah. Yeah.