The Zac Clark Show - Michael Chernow: From Addiction to Entrepreneurial Success—The Power of Sobriety and Daily Habits

Episode Date: August 13, 2024

In this deeply personal and introspective episode, we sit down with Michael Chernow, a serial entrepreneur, professional athlete, father, and husband, who recently celebrated 20 years of sobriety—a milestone marking two decades of personal growth and unwavering commitment to a better life. Michael takes us on his journey from active substance use disorder to a life transformed through the sacred practices of Alcoholics Anonymous and the 12 steps, which played a pivotal role in his recovery. As a health and fitness expert, Michael shares how his sobriety fueled his success, not just in overcoming addiction but also in rebuilding his life with healthy and productive habits. This transformation became the foundation for his entrepreneurial endeavors, including co-founding New York City’s hugely successful The Meatball Shop, launching Seamore’s, and creating the innovative oatmeal brand Kreatures of Habit—a brand born from his early dedication to a healthy lifestyle, starting with a simple yet powerful habit of eating oatmeal every morning. Michael opens up about the delicate balance of honoring the traditions and anonymity of 12-step programs while recognizing the unique opportunity that social media offers to inspire and help others through his public platform. His mission is to share the positive habits and experiences that have shaped his life, empowering others on their own journeys to better living. Join us as we explore the mindset, strategies, and profound personal and professional growth that Michael has achieved through embracing sobriety and building a life dedicated to health, wellness, and service. Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right, welcome back to the Zach Clark show. Today's guest is truly one of my favorites, Michael Chernoe, who is a, the most important thing about Michael is that he's sober, and that's really how we've connected. But he's an entrepreneur. Most recently, he's the co-founder and CEO of Creatures of Habit, which is a brand that I believe in. I invested in Michael, and when he called me with this opportunity, I said, I invest in people, right, and not necessarily the brand, even though I love that. the product

but we've gotten to know each other he's been a big supporter of the release foundation we're going to get into all of that and really he's a trusted servant to the recovery community the fitness community and beyond so Michael it's good to see you thank you man thanks for having me yeah

I'm going to start with the most important thing which we are filming this on August 2nd which for Michael is 20 years sober and I'm getting I'm getting goosebumps just saying that because it takes me back to my day one and I want to start there man

like what are you feeling today like let's hit it you know I'm obviously super grateful I'm one of these guys that I used to fucking despise when I came into the rooms that would say I'm Michael I'm a grateful recovering alcoholic you know I am one of those guys

and have been for a very long time 20 years is great but but at the end of the day all you need is one day right like it's a day that's it and I think that that's a really hard concept for people to wrap their head around when they're trying to make the decision to step out of the darkness and into the light you know oh my God like I've been living this way for so long you know how am I going to figure how am I going to do this and all you got to do is just wake up and go to bed sober like that's it that's the end of the day that's it so you know what am i feeling today uh grateful i my wife and kids are in europe and typically i don't do anything crazy for my anniversary it's confusing it's confusing for me like every

year it's kind of like okay we're gonna we're gonna post about it and you get all this love and for the alcoholic it's a little bit like I want to just kind of well that's kind of how I've dealt with it for years you know my wife on my one year anniversary I met Donna my wife who I love more than anything on the planet along with my children but I met Donna I broke the rules and I met her eight months into sobriety

and she walked into the restaurant that I was working at and I wish she's way out of my league like way out of my league was this meatball shop no this was frank this was the restaurant that we're eating dinner at tonight okay and frank in the east village I worked I got hired there when I was 20 I worked there until I was 28 and I got hired there when I was an absolute alcoholic and drug addict and it was a great place for me to use and drink because, you know, the inmates ran the institution. But I got sober there, and we'll get into that story. But she walked into the restaurant with another girl and two guys.

And I saw them two beautiful models and these two guys. And I was like, all right, another crew of model. You know, like they were beautiful. But they sat down at the bar waiting for a table, went and had dinner. and then about an hour later the two dudes left and Donna and Linda score what

mistake for them and then Donna and Linda sat down at the bar and we just connected and she's been supporting every single move I've made for the last almost 20 years that we've been together that's amazing I mean I get so many messages from the wives

of alcoholics and drug addicts and they always want to know how they can best support their partners. And I always say it's love, it's understanding, it's doing your own work. It's all the things they probably don't want to hear, but to know that she's been with you

for pretty much this entire journey is a testament. The whole journey and you know, all to say, we celebrated my first anniversary together just her and I. I mean, I went to meetings and did all that, but really,

I was madly in love with her and funny story I said to my first I mean we're talking about sobriety and so AA is a part of that for me yeah and you know sober community you know we're given these like mentors you know and I said to this guy who was at the time sort of leading me through hey man I'm I'm in love with this woman and it was like a month in and he was like oh dude you are not you just don't you don't know where you are like you're you're like a loose can and you're you're newly sober like you just need to pipe it pipe it down and I was like I want to tell her I love her and he was like don't do it I'm just telling you don't because you know if she breaks your heart there's a good shot that you know something bad can

happen and I was like listen man I love this woman I'm telling you I love her and and I told her I loved her and he stopped he stopped mentoring me and you know I married her and thank God that I didn't I didn't listen to his advice so not all advice is some of the stuff has to be taken

with a grain of salt but regardless she's been my partner in crime and you know I told her when we first met like hey I'm a little crazy I'm a little nuts I'm focused on my sobriety I'm focused on my fitness and I work a lot and so if you can

handle that and support me like and she was like I'm all in so yeah she's been my partner and then we've got this beautiful family with kids so they're not here so I decided to have a dinner with friends tonight and you're coming to that dinner a couple of our friends are going to be there and this morning I woke up I put a big smile on my face I said thank God for keeping me sober yesterday and you know please help me to stay sober today I'm done this thing 20 years now And then when I first really started getting... What is that God? For me?

Yeah. I have no idea. Me neither. I got no clue. I believe, though. Oh, I'm a belief. I'm prayer and connection with God for me is major. But when people ask me what, I say, I don't know.

I just didn't fight it. Yeah, and I don't care. Because I know me if I start asking the questions and going to the different, you know, places, like, I'll get skeptical. I'll, I'll, you know, find some reason to derail my deep connection. I've got a deep connection, deep. And I know for, I don't think, I don't believe I know that I have been supported. For sure, for sure.

And the one thing I've done without fail every single day since the first day I was told to, you know, to get on my knees is pray. It's the one thing I've done along this journey that has been, like, has not wavered at all. Yeah. I know for me, like, I can say this about God. The biggest thing for me to understand early in my sobriety is that I'm not God. Totally. Because for the first 27 years of my life, I thought I was. So when I finally understand that I'm not God, it makes it very easy to,

to believe and to your point backtracking a little bit there's all these rules in sobriety and part of this whole process that we go through is turning our power away giving our power over but i'm kind of shifting on that man like part of this sobriety thing is we get our fucking power back and at eight months or nine months you want to tell this woman that you love her what i'm telling guys and girls who come to me go for it be prepared like be knowledgeable of what the the outcome could be which is you end up single but we got a dream we got to believe and I'm I love that you did that you know the whole like you said you broke rules okay no dating in a year like what does that even mean so a year and day one like I can start just ripping like that's the day yeah I've seen that go

really badly too yeah I you know I what I think like I get I understand the suggestion right like I totally get the suggestion I've never thought about it like that like a year and day one boom you're good to go But, you know, I think ultimately, you know, the, had I not done that, like, I understand if you, if, you know, if I've got somebody that I'm mentoring and they're fresh and they come to me and they say, man, I met this girl last night. I'm in love with her. I'm going to ask her to marry me. I'm going to be like, whoa. You know, like, let's think about this. You know what I mean? You met her to, you met her 24 hours ago, you know? But regardless. you know, I woke up today, incredibly grateful. And when I first, you know, for me, there's like, there's, it's, it's, there's, there's a two part to my sobriety, right? It's, it's, it's the community, sober community, and it's, and it's fitness.

And I, like, I got really lucky when I came in and I made, the first phone call I made when I was ready was to a girl who was like an older sister to me. Her name is Karen. And she was a bartender at this nightclub that I worked at when I was like 15, 16, 17. You knew she was sober. She wasn't sober then, but I knew it she had gotten sober. Okay. And I had the craziest crush on her. She was just like, but she treated me like a little brother, you know, because she was, I don't know, whatever, 10 years older than me, 26, I was 16. And any time I was down and out, I would call her. She lived in the East Village.

She'd be like, come over. She'd just let me crash for days, you know, take care of me. She was just like this, like, angel for me. And when I got, when I knew that it was my time, 20 years ago today, I came to out of a nightmarish run. Yeah, August 2nd, 1994. What does that look like? 2004.

2004. 2004, yeah, 2004, okay. Yeah, August 2nd, 2004, I had come to. I had been up for three days or so, and I was, the way it all sort of ended was two weeks ago, 20 years ago, I overdosed on heroin, so I had died. Were you a needle guy? No, no, I was sniffing heroin. Yeah. rightfully so, got terrified because I was dying in front of her.

And I remember like kind of begging her to call the ambulance. I was like, call the ambulance, call the ambulance. And she was crying and she was high as hell and she just didn't want to call the ambulance. She was scared. So she dragged me into the bathroom and put me on my back in the bathtub and turned on the shower, cold shower. And I remember being in that shower and kind of like coming in and out of consciousness, knowing that this is like the end, like legit feeling like, I'm, I'm going to die.

You're going to get sober or you're going to die. I wasn't even thinking about sobriety then. I was just like, I'm going to die. This is how far I've taken it. You know, this is it. I'm 23. Like, I can't believe it, you know. And then leaving that apartment coming to about a half hour later and like not even being

grateful, just like numb, you know. No, I can't believe that happened to me. Not like, oh my God, I'm so happy. I didn't die. Just like, I can't believe that happened to me. And leaving that apartment on 13th Street between B and C, walking west, probably three hours later, and saying to myself, you've done it, man. You've gone to the absolute end. And you have to stop.

That was your moment of clarity. That was the first real moment of clarity where you just have to stop. but four hours later I was using heroin again right and I couldn't I knew that I couldn't figure it out right like I could not you know it's like gravity pulls gravity keeps us on the ground here right like that's how I felt with drugs and alcohol like I felt like it was it was it just was part of who I like gravity keeps us on the ground we don't think about it it just is there for me it was the drugs was like just like that I was just like this is what I do I couldn't figure out how to stop.

And I made a call that night basically saying to myself, like, all right, dude, you're going to go as hard as fast as you can because you want this to end. Like, you want to end and you don't know how to end it any other way. So you might as well just like push hard. And then you'll, what happened earlier today will actually come to fruition. And you won't just be over. Yeah. You know. And so that's what I did.

And it was a complete, I don't remember anything. outside of right before I blacked out for the last time. And we had been up for three days. I was with this kid, this kid, Murr and Guess. So, you know, great guys. Murr is now sober. His name is Tommy. He's an amazing dude, and I'm so grateful for him.

And Guess is still alive. I don't know what he's doing, but a lot of my friends from then are dead. Most of them. Right. And so we were up on the roof of my building, is in the building that we're going to have dinner tonight because I lived upstairs from the restaurant I worked at. Oh, we're really going back to Ground Zero.

Yeah, yeah. That's why I did it there. And they were like, it was a hot summer day, dude. And we were on the room. I'm an August baby, too. Like, only the sick fucks get sober in August. It's the truth. When's your anniversary?

The 30th. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, so it was hot as hell. And I, they were like, they literally looked at me and they were like, dude, it's too much. we're done at like we're calling it and I was like not me I live right downstairs you know and I went back down to my hot apartment because I didn't have AC because I didn't I you know it was I lived in a tenement I didn't have the you know like I didn't care about like anything in life

and you're a city kid like 23 years leading up to this moment you're Manhattan yeah yeah and so I remember very clearly walking into my bedroom and I had a wall mirror like right behind my door. So I walk into the bedroom, I closed the door behind me, and the mirror was right there. And I caught a glimpse of myself, and I stopped, and I looked in the mirror, and I just said, I fucking hate you.

You are useless, worthless piece of shit. You should jump out the window. Today's the day. Just fucking do it. And this was August 1st. Today's the day. Just end it, man. End it.

You got, it's just, you don't know how to do it any other way. Like, it's, you're, you're beating the dead horse. Just go. Grab your courage and go. And I didn't have the courage. I didn't have courage to do anything. Right. In those days.

So, somehow, I didn't do that. And I blacked out. I drank a ton of warm beer and I finished the rest of the Coke. And I guess my body just completely just gave out. And I blacked out. I woke up 16 hours later. and slept through work because I was still working in this restaurant

and my boss I called him I had you know tons of people trying to get a hold of me people thought I was dead and I was like Frank I'm sorry man I fucked up again

and he was like Mikey come down to the restaurant and I came down to the restaurant and he was like listen I love you dude you're like a Sunday me and I'm watching you die. You're a great person, man. I'm watching you die and I'm paying you to do it. I'm firing you. It's over. You got to figure your life out. You got to figure your life

out. And I was like, man, like it just took the wind out of my sales, you know? Like it was the one thing that was tethering me to some semblance of life, this job that I had where when I got behind that bar, even though I was drunk and high, people wanted me. They wanted me to be, they they were looking forward to well that interaction is so powerful too when we talk about because now you're kind of poking your head under the work we do at release and it's the language like you knew he loved you and you left him with no other chance it's what i tell wives of husbands who are out there drinking all the time you can communicate in a loving way a pretty hard boundary so for you that moment was probably this guy loves me and he's firing me what am i supposed to do now

like what what the crazy thing was was that i basically said to him look and it just came out of my mouth i'll get sober wow and he was like listen i can't have you work behind the bar i won't do that i'm sorry i won't do it but if you get sober you can come here at eight o'clock in the morning and clean the restaurants with the porters and i'll pay you hourly to do it you call me when you get And you call me an hour, a minute past 8 o'clock, you're fired. I find out you have a sip of alcohol, sniff a drug, you're fired. I'll find out. Go get sober.

Show up tomorrow morning at 8 a.m. And that was the last day I had a drink. And, or that wasn't, I didn't even have a drink that day. That was my first day sober. And I called Karen. Huh? Go ahead. Well, then I called Karen because she was the only person who I knew was really kind of sober.

and then Karen was dating a guy named Marcus and she was like, look, you know, let me call my boyfriend and tell him that I have a friend who's ready. And so she called Marcus, Marcus showed up. And, you know, when you're first getting sober and you're young like I was, you know, even though you're desperate and miserable, you still think you're cool. Right. You still think you're like, you got a big ego, you know. My thoughts were, I'm not going to be cool.

I'm never going to hook up with a girl ever again. I'm going to be hanging out in fucking churches and, you know, wearing, you know. It's all lies. It's all lies. And so he showed up and he's this presence. He walks in, he's got a shaved head, covered in tattoos, tough guy, sits down with me, and says very few things outside of tell me your story i want to hear your story i'll sit and listen as long as you need as long as you need me to and i saddled him for four hours and i told him and

he didn't say a word he just listened to me and after that i felt like i had just lost a hundred thousand pounds and he uh he saved my life that guy with frank and then he basically said immediately listen i also towards the end and i can't even believe this you know today but like i was very violent i was a great fun drunk but if you said something that i didn't like or you did something that i didn't like i was not even going to blink and i would punch you right in the mouth And I did that all the time. Was that trauma from childhood coming out? Was that proven a point?

That was like the last two years of my... But what do you think that was? Like the violence. Oh, just not caring. Yeah. Not caring. Not caring about any repercussions. I didn't care how big you were.

I just, if I think back, I'm like, I remember I used to live in Carroll Gardens and or Park Slope. And I was living above this bar. And there was a big dude in there, big, like, kind of like Puerto Rican gangster kind of guy. And he was always down the bar, big guy. And I had a dog. I had a dog named Duke who I treated, who I loved more than anything, but he was an alcoholic dog. He was my, he was an alcoholic's dog.

So I would leave him in an apartment for two days. Right. You know what I mean? But when I went out, I took him everywhere with me. I took him to bars. I took him everywhere with me. And I would take him down to the bar. And I would just leave him in there.

And I would go upstairs, do a bunch of drugs, come back downstairs, Duke would be hanging out, people petting and whatever. Somebody runs up to the apartment and says, Duke's gone. Someone let him out. Someone didn't want him in the bar, let him out. And so I walked downstairs. I'm out of my mind.

And I walk in and I said, who let my fucking dog out of the bar? And this dude walks up and goes, me, I did. And without even thinking, about it. I just fucking laced them. Laced them. You know, and like the trouble that I got myself into for doing that

was not a joke. It was real. You know? And so I just did things like that. People know where you were sleeping at night. Yeah. So, so Marcus, you know, with my story, I told him that I was dealing with this sort of anger thing and this

aggression thing that just came out of me. You know, Like, it wasn't like I was planning on anything of it to happen. It just was, it was happening. And he said, okay, listen, he's like, this is what we're going to do. I'm going to, I'm going to meet you in the morning, but I'm going to write you a plan. I'm going to write you a plan. And if you follow the plan, you will literally live a life way beyond anything you can imagine right now.

If you don't follow the plan, all good too. But you'll probably die within the next six months. Like, all on you. He was right. I'm not going to chase you around. He's like, but I want to help you. And this is what I do. And this is what you can do too.

And he's like, I'm 10 years sober. And I can't even begin to tell you how awesome my life is. And I looked at this guy and I was like, I want to be like him. I want to be like him. Like everything about him. Good looking, in the best shape ever, cool as hell. really spoke my language. Clear.

Clear. I was just like, I want to be like him. Yeah. There's two things that come up for me as you tell the story. One is I can't help but think how many times

you've been Marcus for other people, right? Like they say in recovery that the greatest gift is in the giving, and we know that to be true. How many times people have called you and you're the only person

that they know are sober and you have that opportunity to be Marcus or Karen for someone. someone else and that's just for me the facts about recovery is that we are uniquely neither of us are therapists neither of us are doctors i mean a bank teller got me sober right literally a bank teller we're uniquely qualified to help other people because we've actually done it we've actually done the work and we're able to say hey this is what i did it worked for me you can do it and it's

probably going to work for you too and if you don't dude it's all good you know and it's it's it's so powerful and then the second part is just the the alcoholic and drug addicted torture is so hard to penetrate for loved ones and people around us that we need that moment of clarity we need and it's confusing for me if someone works in behavioral health care like we'll get these calls and this guy will be strung out on heroin the family we've tried everything we've had interventions, we've had this, we've had that, like sometimes it just has to be divinely inspired. And that's what I'm hearing from you now. There was no doctor that came in, a psychiatrist. He was, it was, it was like, it couldn't have been more perfect, you know. And there's a, there's, you know, unfortunately, you know, we are a minority, right? And this massive pool of people that are addicted to drugs and alcohol. What you and I, what you've been doing and where, you know, I'm tagging along now,

which has been so, dude, like, you have no idea how grateful I am for the Release Recovery Foundation, man. Like, we came up with this idea a year and a half ago to go raise some money through creatures of habit and do this event, and the first three, four months was slow. raised 75 grand and in my mind I was like man I just you know we were you know the thought was hey like we'll have this pool of cash and we'll be able to we'll be able to fully fund people that want to get sober but just don't have the money to do it from the depths of addiction into a facility and not just a 28 day program like this long extended stays with with

the money we raised. And the first three or four months, nothing was happening. I was posting on social media. I'm like, guys, I'm going to, I want to pay for your treatment. I was going to ask you about this. I was like, if you are struggling, just please, I don't want to hear from your friends. I don't want to hear from your mother. Like, just feel the fucking power, the energy that I'm giving you right now to just DM me. Nothing. I'll never, you called me. I was driving somewhere and he said Zach what the fuck is going on here like I'm giving away care like world-class treatment and not one person has written me and we both have followings and I'm sharing your stuff and I said welcome welcome to the darkness man like people do not

want to ask for help it's so hard yeah because you know people saw that and they thought about it and they opened their DMs just like you and I did in a different way when we were trying to get sober the hand starts to creep up and then it's well I can make this work a little bit longer the surrender man it's

so go on but I remember that phone call I'm like welcome to the team dude welcome aboard these people are not going to crawl out of the woodwork to ask for help it's weird because out of nowhere you guys introduce me to someone in Texas I connect

with this young kid, Nicholas, who I spoke to last night after my walk, who's sober 150 days or something. He was the first kind of churno, creatures a habit, recipient, yeah. First guy. How cool is that? And then all the sudden, man, like God was just like, okay, I'm going to start throwing it at you. And boom, I got a DM, boom, I got a DM.

out of nowhere, like within a week, two people reached out. Then my childhood best friend, this kid Robbie, childhood best friend from like kindergarten to eighth grade. And he and I were inseparable. We played sports together, we ran in the streets together, we wrote graffiti together, we were bad kids together, we were good kids together, were good kids together. We robbed a bank together, actually, which is real and funny. Not like with a gun, but, you know, definitely did that. He reaches out to me and he goes, dude, I just had

two heart attacks and I'm dying. When was the last time you heard from prior to this phone call? He would drunk or, you know, drunk text me randomly like every couple of months, you know, but like weird random shit. Like, he'd be like, out of nowhere, you know, I hadn't heard from him in six months. He'd be like, Rangers, four to nothing. And I'd be like, yeah, dude, you sober yet? I'm like, all right.

You know, or like, you know, when Donald Trump won the presidency, he'd be like, Donald Trump won. I'm like, no shit, dude. All right. You know, just weird random shit. Anyway, he's like, dude, I just got out of the hospital. I had two heart attacks, and I'm dying, man.

I don't know what to do. And I was like, man, you know, it's interesting timing because I'm actually helping people get into treatment. I'm paying for it. I'm paying the full thing free. And he's like, oh, man, that's amazing. Let me help you help people get into treatment. And I'm like, no, no, no, Rob. like I want to pay for you to go to treatment dude

he's like me he's like what are you talking about I'm like Robbie you're the same age as me you just had two heart attacks you tell me that you're not drinking and doing drugs but you've lost all your teeth I know where you're at let me help you

and he was like pause didn't say a word and he was like okay I say pack a bag I call you I call the team

within three hours there was a car at his doorstep to take him to treatment I talk to him every day he's in an IOP he's sober almost 90 days he's put on 30 pounds

and he's given a new lease on life dude I can't tell you It makes me emotional to say it because I am so grateful that that dude is alive. I'm so grateful. If it wasn't for this foundation, there's no way. He would have died within a week. For real.

And like, we saved his life. I can't even believe it. It's a part of this journey that unless you are on it, you'll never understand. like the stories of recovery they they never get old and to think that you guys from from childhood running around doing what you were doing getting into trouble fast friends with however many years later like you get this call

and you know you have the tools you knew exactly how to navigate that conversation with him and that's but you know what dude like what you did was like you literally I think the text was

emergency urgent all hands on deck and I didn't know what that meant honestly like I didn't know how you guys roll right like our team like that and that's the piece that

I know that we do just as good as anyone in this country as we answer the bell when it rings because that's a life and death moment that window of willingness for him is not going to last more than maybe the three hours that it took us to get there and how many people have died from the time

they agree to get help until the help arrives. Right. It was amazing. So, you know, I spoke to Robbie this morning, you know. Like, I know I love my life.

I've done a lot of cool-ass shit I am 100% living this life that I never thought was imaginable and it's only because I'm sober like I know that is just there's just no denying that you know full stop

full stop full agreement there's no chance and I'm sitting here getting choked up with another guy growing up my whole life thinking that it's not cool for guys to show emotion not cool for guys to talk like we're talking right now and really it's the toughest shit the most badass thing that I've learned to do like when I connect with men on this

level forget about it it's a it's a brotherhood it's a fellowship it's something that you can't explain until you until you feel it and most in my you know like I was thinking in this in this sober community thing I went to earlier today I was like really feeling gratitude and I was really like man you know like it must be so hard like making a decision to pull the blanket off

is so hard even if you are pissing on yourself shitting on yourself fucking up every opportunity put in your path like it must be so hard to just say I am done I'm going to just I'm done I'm going to do this thing like it must be so hard like I'm I'm been through it I've been through it you guys have been through it like the the thought of that moment is

sends chills down my spine and that is why unfortunately we are a massive minority and there are hundreds of thousands of people dying a year. Yeah. If not many, many more that we just don't know about.

I'm sitting here laughing because one of the things we, I'm sure you've heard it, when you are introduced to that newcomer, when you're introduced to that person who was early on in their journey and maybe they have a big job, or there's somebody or whatever it is. And their big thing is like, I can't be seen.

I can't be seen in a meeting. I can't be seen in therapy. Do you know who I am? And I just can't help but ask them, what does it look like when you drink? Right. That's what you should be worried about. That's what you should be embarrassed about.

Right. If I call your family up, what does Christmas look like? Blacked out at 4 p.m. throwing up in the bathroom. Right. So you're telling me walking into a room full of people who are sober and trying to better themselves and the world is something that you're scared of being seen at? Like that's, for me, that's, that's where I want to be. Those are the people I want to be around.

But we're so delusional when we're getting cocked and blacked out that it's like, whatever I'm doing out here, no one's seeing and everyone is. Right. But once I get sober, you can't make me go here because people are going to figure out that I'm sober. My life's over. you know like something that so this morning so when I got sober you know I met Marcus right and he wrote this this plan for me and the plan is basically the plan that I still follow to this day it's a simple plan do you share it yeah yeah basically he told me wake up as early as I can, as soon as I open my eyes, go into gratitude because you're going to wake up with this

thing called untreated alcoholism. And if you let it fucking start your day, it'll finish your day and maybe not in the greatest way. So smile and go into gratitude. And then he said, roll right out of your bed and right onto the floor and get on your knees and ask for help. I don't give a shit who you talk to, what you talk to, whether you believe in God or not. But my, you know, my God, you need fucking help and you don't know how to ask for it. So get on your knees and ask for it in the beginning of the day. Stand up and make your bed. Go into the bathroom.

Take a piss. Wash your face, brush your teeth. And then put on a pair of sneakers and get out of your apartment immediately. Go for a walk. Go for a run. It could be a block. It could be 20 miles. Get out and move your body.

As soon as you get back, this is literally the planning roll for me. As soon as you get back, have a bowl of oatmeal. It's easy. It's satiating. It's healthy. You can add whatever you want to it. You can make it taste like anything you want. But that should be the first meal that you have for the day. And then go right to this sober community meeting. Maybe I'll be there. Maybe I won't. It doesn't matter. Go there. Introduce yourself and tell them who you are and why you're there. And then right after that, meet me at the Muay gym. And I was like the what gym? And he was like the Muay gym. I didn't know anything from Muay but I learned very quickly what it was because I got the shit kicked out. of me in there. And he's like, I do, I train Muay Thai. It's a combat sport. And I want you to go there because I think it's a great outlet for you. And I think you'll love it. And so meet me there and I'm going to teach you how to be a man. And then when we're done there, you're going to have chicken and broccoli right away for lunch. You're going to take a nap and you are going to go to work and then have chicken and broccoli again and go to bed as early as you can and

rinse and repeat. And so that was the beginning of my journey. And and so part of that for me became running. Running became a big part because I want to stop you there though real quick just because the thing that I think is missed in this recovery process

a lot is the nutrition. Like when I got sober basically people told me you're never going to get arrested for eating a pint of haganas or smoking a cigarette. So what I heard was smoke cigarettes and smoke cigarettes and fuck hammer ice cream, right? Because that's giving me permission to do that shit. So this guy telling you to eat chicken and broccoli and have oatmeal is genius. And we don't think about the holistic approach. I think we're getting a little bit better, but getting sober is not

permission to be a jackass. Yeah, so just one thing, and I probably get in trouble for saying this, but like whenever I start working with a guy, I, you know, I kind of say, hey, like, are you willing to do whatever it takes? And if they say yes, I say, okay, well, I can only show you the way I did it. I can't show you another way. It would be fraud, right? So I'm going to tell you what I do. And if you can sign up for that, one day, that's all you got to do, one day of this thing. If you can sign up for that, I'm your guy. If you can't, and it's scary for you, all good. I can introduce you to 75 other guys that can do it a different way. But part of that for me is the plan, the plan that I just kind of conducted. I know this story leads to

creatures and I want to hear the full oatmeal story but we're beating around something here that we got to fucking talk about and you and I have had this conversation many times because we both have followings on social media we're both very proudly sober and it's a little bit of a mind fuck because we know what we did right like we went to meetings we did the work and you know the truth is like the literature a lot of it was written like in the 12-step community back in the 1930s and that shit is sacred to me it really is

and when I came off television and I had kind of told my story to a national audience it was really hard and really confusing because one I want to share this thing with the world so that everyone can know like how I got sober the flip side of that is There's a lot about the fellowship and the community that is supposed to be anonymous and it's supposed to be, you know, sacred and we're not supposed to talk about on a public level.

So I'm just curious because I see you talking about your sobriety more. I see you getting tripped up a little bit here over like, do I talk about this? Do I not? And neither of us want to piss off the 12-step community. Like, that's not who we are, man. We don't. I don't. But at the same time, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

24 and if we can represent something to the guy out there in a way that's not traditional that he gets a little bit inspired to like walk into a meeting or do something I don't know

that might be worth it so I've been doing a lot of thinking about this we had a conversation about it I actually recently spoke to my sponsor about it he totally signs off on me saying whatever the fuck I want he's like dude, if you don't, you know, maybe you don't have to say A-A. You could say sober community.

You could say. Well, I see you going back and forth. Like you're like, a sober thing I was at. And then you'll like mention a sponsor. And I'm like, fuck, man. We got to talk about this. Because it's real for us. Well, so, so here's the deal.

Like, in this podcast, I'm happy to take the shit and rip off the Band-Aid. my truth is this I don't know anyone in my 20 years of doing this that has been able to get sober and stay sober happily without fucking A-A. I don't know a single person

not one literally I do not know one I cannot think of one person so I feel stuck because I totally can appreciate traditions

and I could totally appreciate rules that said I also know that my primary purpose as an alcoholic in recovery is to help as many fucking people as possible. Stay sober, I'd help that.

Yeah, well, right. And like I just said, I don't know a single person who's done it on their own. and if you can't hear it because it bothers you that someone like me is going to say the two letters that define the group that we come from, I apologize up front. I will never say a name. I will never tell a story.

I might recite a piece of advice that someone's given me. Of course. But I will never say a name. I will never tell a story. and you know I am comfortable saying that I'm an alcoholic's anonymous and it saved my life

people have crushed my anonymity I mean like I have people come up to me all the time and like DMing me to speak at meetings and I'm just like I take it on why should I be made to feel bad about this

yeah I it saved my life it saved my life I'm sitting here across from you right now because of the 12-step program. It saved my life. I don't know a single person who's done it without it. I don't. I will say this in response to that.

And dude, I love you, man. I really do. I love you too. Like you inspire me. And I hope it's mutual, but you do. And I think what I've seen, what I've seen are people that come and some of these are clients

that have come to release recovery and live with us and maybe they come in and they're smoking too much weed and they make small changes in their lives and they go on and they do live a happy existence where they can

drink safely or only drink on weekends or even not drink or drug at all my conclusion with those people is that maybe they didn't have a substance use disorder maybe they were just at a point in their life where they needed to go left instead of going right and i can appreciate that because i have seen that and you're closer to that than i am i've seen that most people that walk into a room are with their

tail between their legs yep and on the verge of death or taking their own life so i've seen that And I've seen, and I've stuck back, a lot of people maintain sobriety. There's obviously medications that are assisting in treatment now. And what I say to them is, I'm proud of you. I love that you are living a life that is free from drugs and alcohol. What I can share with you about my experience is that there's another level to this shit. And if you're not going to do it in

AA or what, get a therapist and start to like look at your side of this shit. Like really like that mirror moment you talked about. Like how many lives have mirrors saved? Like I had my mirror moment. Like we as how many lives have mirrors? I mean, come on.

I had it in treatment, dude. Yeah. I fucking woke up in treatment and we'll get back to this. But I woke up in treatment like seven days in. And I'm, overweight and I'm running around the detox hitting on all the girls

and no one's given me a blink of an eye because I am like not and I'm thinking and I'm thinking to myself like like what's good here like I can't even

I can't even get a wink I can't even get a how you doing and one night I woke I was like going to bed and I looked in the mirror and I said oh I get it you fucking hate yourself

and you look like shit and in that moment this desire to have like the rehab romance left and I decided that maybe I should give this thing a shot but I don't I don't you know like dude I think look this is and this is again like we're being very open and and blown the doors off the the hinges here like you know I've been sober 20 years the first 10 years of my of my journey I made meetings every day I had a commitment at, you know, I mean, we're talking inside baseball here, but like I, I was deep in, right? And, you know, the truth is life did get real. Life got big and life got real and really good, really good. And I slowed down going to meetings. And now I can honestly say that, you know,

I have a very healthy relationship with the amount of time that I put into the point. program. I'm a once a week guy. I don't feel the need to go every day, twice a day. And I am good. And, you know, like, when you think about religion, there's typically a day a week that people go and give it and take it and are there to participate. And I kind of look at my sobriety like that. This is my religion. Yeah, me too. It's where I was able to find the little blink of light in the darkness. And I just started walking closer and closer to it. And that blink just got, you know, bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

And then all of a sudden I remember, you know, once I started running, I remember the day like it was yesterday because I relived it this morning on my run. I was running over the Williamsburg Bridge from Williamsburg to Manhattan. and it was a beautiful day probably in September or October. And I looked up, because I normally looked down when I run. And I looked up and I was coming down to Williamsburg Bridge and the sky was blue like the bluest blue. And I opened up my arms on my run.

And I was like, oh my God, I'm fucking free for the first time. for real the light just got so real for me like that blink became everything and i did the same thing today and so i i can't i get choked up it's funny that i'm getting choked up but it's not funny it's real you know i'm i you know of so many things happened this morning for me on this run you know like i i haven't run that long in a while and And I used to do that run all the time. And for years, I would run over the Williamsburg Bridge, down to the Brooklyn Bridge, over the Brooklyn Bridge, back over the Manhattan Bridge, back over the Williamsburg Bridge. And this morning, when I woke up, I was like, I haven't run longer than six miles in years since probably 2019, 2020.

And I was like, I'm going to go do the nine-mileer, the triple bypass. I'm doing it. And I got out there. I suited up. And I went on the run. and about probably six miles in my body started to go fuck dude what did you do and I just reminded myself Mike this is your life right foot in front of the left baby like this is all it's going to take like hard shit is always there and you can run away from it or throwing the towel on it or you

could just keep putting the right foot in front of the left and I said you know what like I'm going to make the best of this and I got on the bridge and every single runner that passed me I smiled at him and I went and they all went yeah and I was like let's go and so what that said to me was in life Mike the energy you fucking put out is the energy you're going to get back and we live in energy like we live on energy man and so you can run with your head down and feel on the pain because it hurts or you could bring some energy to this shit and energy is not only contagious but when it's positive it's bouncy it's it's somebody else gets it and then it bounces back to you and like life can be looked at the same way yeah energy is a real thing what kind of energy you bring into

your life what kind of energy are you bring into your day I learned all this shit in sobriety all of Why, you know, people were like, oh, God, you know, you, you, you know, you, you were a bartender. You opened up, you know, I opened up 13 restaurants, right? Like, how do, you know, why wasn't too enough? And I was like, man, I'm just like, I'm putting out everything I got, you know? Someone said to me once, all it's going to take is all you got, you know, and I get that. Like, you have a choice every fucking day. What do you want to bring into the day?

What do you want back? You know? And like, I learned all that here. Yeah, I mean, dude, look, I agree. Energy, contagious. Yes. All the cheesy things. Yes. You were the guy hated on day one of my sobriety. Yes. I am now that guy. Yes. Like, all the things. But when I think about the most valuable education I got in my life, I got a sport management degree from York College. I went to a really nice public high school down in south jersey i come from a good family well-educated where i learned the most about life was it philadelphia eagles playing that no no that is where that is where my character defects spilled out into fist fights and you know throwing

snowballs and santa claus or whatever the hell was but but in the recovery community show up 20 minutes early call other people sit in the front row i mean people say i'm a decent public speaker. Where do you think I learned to public speak? 100%. Tell them my fucking story. Over and over and over again. Totally. And so that's something you're doing now. Why? Why the pivot to like really feeling comfortable

being out there, being on social media. I'm Michael Chernobyl. I am sober. I am here to help. And what has that shift felt like for you? Because it wasn't always that way. No. And I, so, I mean, I spent years in restaurant business, right? And so when I got sober, God, my calf is about to seize up. Nine miles. You know, my, it was very hard to tell my sober story in a way that I felt comfortable when I'm

opening up restaurants and, you know, filling people's glasses with fucking booze all night, right? like it just it not not that I not that I felt like a fraud because it was my business and it was what I love and I still love that business I love bringing people together and connecting yeah you're good at it I just love doing that but like I didn't I wasn't like so forward about my story because I didn't feel that the time was right now the Wall Street journal did a big piece on me when I opened up Seymors. And that was in 2016. I, they started asking me all sorts of questions. And I had never talked about my sobriety in a public way before. And I stopped them. And I was like, hey, I got, I can't, you know,

I just, I'm not, it's not, it doesn't feel right for me to talk about that specific thing, you know? And I literally called my sponsor and I was like, dude, I don't know what to do here. You know, I got a, this is like a big thing, you know, and he was like, don't mention it. Just don't mention it, man. Keep it a secret. Keep it a secret. And he's like, nobody needs to know your business that way. And I was like, okay, all right.

So, you know, I feel the could not feel more differently today about that. When I decided that this business was the next thing for me. So let's go to that. Yeah. So the oatmeal, creatures of habit, is an oat. Is an oat. Marcus, does Marcus know? Like, does he, is he around?

Does he know? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell the creature's story. So basically, I, uh, I opened up a restaurant called the meatball shop in 2010. And it took off like absolute wildfire. I had no idea what was coming. It was a dream, right? Like opened it up before we knew it, you know, we were cooking meatballs on Jay Leno and

Jimmy Fallon and Chelsea Handler and Good Morning America, the Today's show. I got forced into this public kind of media world similar to you, right? And I just, I, for whatever reason, and I'm sure, because of my recovery, like being in front of people, talking all the time, being a bartender, being in the restaurant business, never not afraid to just like shoot the shit, I sucked, I, I, I, I totally sunk in. easy. They put the camera on me and I was the same guy I am just talking down the street, you know? And so I got lucky in the media world and the media kind of just like happened. And so meatball shop was nuts. I built that business and then I opened up another restaurant called Seymores and I, you know, I opened up six, seven of those. And then I got lucky and made a decision that I wanted to sell some equity in 2019. And so I did that. And, you know, I,

I was ready to open up my third restaurant concepts because I know restaurants. Yeah. And then boom, we get hit with a global pandemic. And I literally watch my whole career and all the shit that I built. There was 13 restaurants on the street in New York crash and burn. I thought everything was going to, I was like my career is over. The businesses that I, I mean, luckily I took equity out, but the businesses that I still have equity in, that I was banking on, you know, being like the check when I, you know, in my...

College tuition. Yeah. You know, just, I was like, that's it. It's over. I got to completely pivot. I got to change. I got to, you know, I can't. This is, this way of doing business is done for God knows how long.

And I was like, you know what? Like, maybe it's just going to get better, right? So my wife and I decided that we were going to move to our upstate weekend house. We moved to Upstate Weekend House and it just started getting worse and worse and I was watching the news like everybody was and I was just like dying inside dying because people were dying my grandfather died from COVID all this shit was going down and I was just like I just felt close I was like oh my God like what is happening and then I had this moment where I was like wait I could, I don't need the restaurant. Like, I could do something meaningful that's not just having, you know, having people come and dine in a restaurant that I created. I could do something impactful with my life, like, from my story,

from like the shit that, like, really gets me going. And I was like, I need to open up a business and wellness. And I hired an executive coach, and she, convinced me that like I didn't need a restaurant I could do it any anywhere I wanted to do it it I'm a creative entrepreneur at this point of my life at that point of my life and so I want on a run like I do when I need to think you know like I did this morning I wanted to appreciate my life I do it in silence on a run and I was thinking about man like what am I going to do I knew that I knew I wanted to call it creatures a habit because that's what I was going to call the restaurant

On that six-mile run, I came home, and I told my wife exactly what it was, because it came to me on the run. I said, I am going to take the oatmeal that I have been fucking making for 16 years as the first meal of my day, plus the supplements that I use, which was always digestive enzymes, vitamin D3, omega-3 fatty acids, and a probiotic. And I'm going to put all that shit. There is. the box. I'm going to put my oatmeal recipe, which is, you know, over the years, it kind of just like I found the sweet spot with it. It was basically, you know, like, I used to take whole rolled gluten-free oats and a

cup of oats and I put it into a pan with two and a half, three cups of water, a pot, two and a half two cups of water. I'd crush some pink and malay and salt on it. I'd bring it to a boil and then I'd let it simmer for 20 minutes. once it was fluffy and simmered, I'd cover it for a minute, and then I'd put a big fat scoop of protein powder into it, so I was getting 30 grams of protein, and I would stir it, because if you put the protein in, as you're boiling it, the protein kind of gets all fucked up and nasty. So you put it in once it's just steamed and soft.

I would stir the protein in with chia seeds, flaxseeds, and pumpkin seeds, and it had the pink salt in it already, and I would take some cinnamon, and I put some cinnamon on it, and then I put some berries and fucking whatever on it. And that was my breakfast every day. I loved it. It was like the one thing that I was just like look forward to. It was so easy. I never thought about it.

But it took me 25 minutes to make. So I was on this run and I was like, man, if I could figure out a way to make that shit easy for people, like this is the meal that I was told to eat when I changed my life. And this is the meal that I've been eating to fuel my system through competing in Muay, running marathons, fucking becoming a pro bodybuilder, like all these things. that I had done physically, but also giving me the tool to like win in the morning nutritionally. This was the win.

I wanna be able to give it to people. I don't wanna go into like the fresh food delivery business. I wanna go into a business that I can create a product that I can just say, hey, it's really hard to sell habits. Like I can't sell you waking up early. I can't sell you going to the gym. I can't sell you fucking eating healthy all day long. But this, I could put in your hand and say,

if you use this, this could be the spring, board for the rest of your day. This is a habit that I have stuck to. I came home, told my wife the idea. She was like, you're fucking crazy. And then that night. But you had told her that before, so you had, you know, yeah. But that night, I, or that next day, I opened a bank account with Chase. I put a big check into the bank. I made, I took, you know, opened up my roll decks. I called everybody I knew who was in CPG, CPG adjacent. I asked for so much, Help. So much help, dude. I was like, I took everything I had and thought of myself and stripped it off of me, threw it out the window and said, dude, you're starting from scratch like you're a college graduate. You've done some cool shit, but you're deciding to walk into a Wild West world that you've never been into. You've got to ask for help. And that asking for help, peace, where'd I learned that, right? So I asked for as much I was possible. and people were so excited to give me help,

and they all helped me, and they introduced me to all these people, and I got connected with this guy in L.A., and I said, look, man, like, I'm trying to make this product. It needs to be clean. It needs to be 30 grams of protein. It's got to have no fillers, no extenders, no sugar, no bullshit, no garbage.

I don't want anything bad in it. I want it to be able to be made hot, cold, in a smoothie. I want all this shit. And this guy was like, oh, my God, like, who do you think I am? Superman? man like that's that's impossible right and I was like are you willing to try with me will you try with me and he's like I'll try with you and me and Marty worked on it for a year 70 something iterations

and ultimately we came to the conclusion that it's best made overnight you can I agree you can make it hot you can't throw it into a smoothie a lot of people do but it's best made overnight with some almond milk and man like when I when I when this thing happened I was like oh my gosh now I not only do I have a product that I believe in that I'm so authentic to me that I've used in my life not I haven't tried I haven't like gone back and forth I fucking am a creature of habit to the tea with this shit but I could tell my story now I could tell people what happened and how how my life was changed by just replacing some bad habits with some a bowl of oatmeal a fucking bowl of oatmeal was a part of it for me you know it was a big part of it for

me because humans are wired to want to win man and I'm not saying win the race right like I'm saying win just winning feels good right like you run a marathon because you're not trying to win the marathon but when you cross that finish line you are like yes yes I fucking did it. And it wasn't a line of Coke and it wasn't a shot of tequila and it wasn't a fucking keg stand. It was you ran 26.2 miles and you it hurt but you cross the finish line you won. So my goal is to like give people those like that's a big win but let me give you little wins because I know for me that when I was getting sober and I knew when I wanted to change if I was able to control a few small winds in the morning

it just gave me the confidence to walk through the day and that's what we're doing man we're almost three years in and it's working man like I you know I write emails to the creatures I have a community every Thursday and last night I wrote an email to the community and I just said you know tomorrow is 20 years sober for me you guys have supported me along this thing that I'm trying to do here because of you guys and your support and the

money we've raised we've been able to put five addicts into treatment and they're all still sober I'm just grateful for the community yeah you know and dude I got smashed with emails from the community so many people just writing back to me I mean there's so many in here dude today just just so many people that that that either we helped get sober through creatures of habit because I've been able to tell my story and people listen and they want to, they want to take a bite out of it too, you know? Well, it's bigger than you, man. It's bigger than you. It's like that logo, this thing that you are building is bigger than you. And I think for me, I think about my journey is the same.

What do I do, right? Like I run treatment programs. I run transitional living. I mean, we just apply what we learn in sobriety to our lives and somehow it works out. and you're an incredible story man you're an incredible story I could talk to you forever like literally we could do three hours right now I know you just did rich roll and I think that's that's a that's a long one and dude that was congrats on that dude that was a fucking big deal I hope it helped and like just just seeing you two there and like rich was someone I read

his book early on and that shifted my perspective that like sober people can do cool shit you know so um i just care about you i'm looking forward to dinner tonight buy your creatures or have it i i will shamelessly pitch this right now i mean i don't give a shit it's my show so uh there's a there's a sale running now but there probably won't be when the episode airs uh we do we do have a little way to end here uh i saw you did post already you're oh man you're uh probably nicer 20 years point And we're going to celebrate you a little bit here. So I have a more traditional XX, which is 20 years.

Serenity prayer on the back, man. My dude. I'm going to bless it. I'll tell you I love you. I'm proud to be on this show. I hope men listen to this episode. Because we're fucking pains in the asses, dude. like to think our way out of everything. So, congrats on 20 years, bro.

Thank you, dude. I love you. Thank you. I love you, man.