The Zac Clark Show - NFL QB to Healthcare CEO: BJ Coleman on Sports, Leadership, and Life’s Toughest Pivots

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

In this episode, Zac sits down with BJ Coleman – former NFL quarterback, author of The Pivot, and CEO of Pivotal Health Partners – for a powerful conversation about resilience, leadership, and life after the game.BJ traces his journey from being a highly recruited high school quarterback to playing at the University of Tennessee, then transferring to the struggling program at UT Chattanooga – where he reinvented his career, leading to being drafted by the Green Bay Packers. His quarterback odyssey laid the seeds for life after football, learning valuable lessons about building teams, the essence of leadership and learning to “control the controllables.”Now an executive and turnaround specialist in behavioral healthcare, BJ is known for walking into broken systems and rebuilding them from the inside out. He and Zac dive into the lessons sports instilled in him – culture, accountability, and leadership – and how those same principles drive his work today. His book, The Pivot, captures this spirit: setbacks aren’t roadblocks, but essential opportunities to reinvent, rebuild, and learn how to succeed. This is an honest, motivational episode that will resonate with athletes, entrepreneurs, and anyone seeking tools to lead under pressure, bounce back from loss, and chart a new path forward.For more information on BJ's book, The Pivot, please click here: https://bjcoleman.com/the-book/Connect with Zachttps://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclarkhttps://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery:[phone]releaserecovery.com@releaserecovery

All right, we are back here at the Zach Clark Show, and I'm excited for today's guest, BJ Coleman. BJ is a former NFL quarterback turned behavioral health care CEO doing a lot of interesting work in that space, which I can't wait to pick your brain on. And most importantly, we are August 26th yesterday. His book came out, which I'm going to read the title here, because I don't want to butcher it. The pivot, right? The playbook for facing life's challenges and coming out a winner. BJ, what is up? How you doing? Man, Zach, thank you so much for having

me. Honored to be here. It's been an unbelievable few days. Um, incredible last 24 months and to be sitting here with you, man, I'm honored. Did you ever think you write a book? Never. Never thought I'd write a book. Um, you know, it really kind of came out of left field, if you will. And, um, and ever since, the whole reflection period has been incredible. And then last night to see it all come together in one point was awesome to have all the family and friends. Yeah, we were talking before. And I think I'm starting to kick the tires on what it might look like for me to write a book. And you shared some things that were really interesting, one of which was like there's these people in our lives that we hate at the time, but they become our biggest teachers.

Is that one of your big takeaways? Oh, man. And so, you know, you go through life and your thinking success is going to look one way and only to come to find out it's something you could not have ever scripted. And it's hard for us human beings oftentimes to take change in stride. None of us are really experts in change. There's no playbook necessarily or manual for that. But when you're able to reflect, and the book really kind of helped me put that period

on that time in my life of going from professional athlete. to what's next, to behavioral health CEO, to now looking at that, at being an author and being able to create a manual to help folks through their shifts and their natural life challenges. And it's about reflection. It's about looking back, being able to connect those dots, and then using that experience and power for good. Yeah, I love that. And we talk about that a lot in behavioral health care, right? Mental health journey, substance abuse journey, uh, using our experiences to help the next person who want who would you say is your targeted reader with this book or is it do you have an idea of that or absolutely anyone that'll buy it right uh yes um here's

when i started i was trying to go real pinpoint i wanted to i was like okay i'm going to focus on the high performing athlete big time mover understands how to create um gravity and and folks to to follow um but what i found out was as i was writing the story and talking about um my own pivot it was everybody's story it was everybody if somebody's gone through loss somebody's gone through identity change um it could be a positive change it could be a stay-at-home mother who was able to raise their four kids now they're all in school she wants to reinsert back into the working world how does that look like i don't know how i don't even know where to start um so it does not have to be just um you know tailored to a specific population or demographic it's really for anybody

that's looking to kind of either take in stride those life shifts or somebody looking to kind of reinvent self and understand what that identity looks like beyond whether it be the game a green beret who lost their sight or was in a position where they can no longer operate maybe the way they could it's just a manual to help kickstart and realize that it's not the loss that's the end it's the invitation it's the opportunity for you now to really dig deep figure who you Right. I mean, I was on my run this morning. I knew I knew you were coming in. Shout out to Jen, your friend who put you on this. We love Jen. She's a colleague of mine and she's in the room with us now. So if you hear her laughing or giggling, that's that's who that is. But we love her and the work, the work that she does. But I knew you were coming in and I started thinking about a pivot, right? And like most of the pivots in my life have come when something ends, right? And it's a little bit of a morbid or a dark thought that I had is like most. I mean, life ends, right? Jobs end, relationships end, life ends, you know.

And so as I was reading up about your story, it sounds like well before this last pivot into becoming an author, you had many other moments where you were forced to kind of look in the mirror and decide which way you were going to go. When did you know that, you know, sports was going to be something that you could lean into? Like, when did you know you kind of had the ability to play at a really high level and you might not just be like a little pee-wee tossing around. I was a baseball guy, honestly. I love baseball.

Ninth grade. We had an unbelievable senior pitcher, and the Yankees came to our high school to watch him, and they ended up speaking with me in the ninth grade. Wow. And I was ecstatic, so I was like, baseball is what I'm going to do, almost turned football completely off.

But my dad going, hey, you know, why don't you go through summer workouts, see if you enjoy, you've got to stay in shape anyway to get ready for baseball season. So you might as well stick. around, ended up going through that summer with the guys and just bonded, really fell in love with the whole team aspect of it. I mean, it's the ultimate team sport where you've got to get 11 humans on each side of the ball pulling in the same direction for one common goal.

And I remember my 10th grade year, McCauley High School, very highly touted high school, all-boy school, private school, Chattanooga, Tennessee. Actually, really cool fact here, Zach. So Baylor and McCauley is a huge rivalry in South. known in the southeast. Baylor High School just landed Peyton Manning's son Marshall. So they literally just moved into Chattanooga. Marshall's going to go to Baylor, our rival school, and we play every year.

And you're talking 15, 20, 25,000 fans. So I knew in the 10th grade after that sophomore season, I had a shot. I was starting to kind of get talked about. Some scouts were starting to come in. And this was kind of before you got to go to camps. It was when Rivals.com was coming out. Yeah, there's no social.

media, you're not making your own real, none of that stuff. That's right. We didn't even have huddle. It was just like, you know, word of mouth, the coaches that were in your region would recruit you. And if they offered you, the country would go, oh, if he's getting offered it, you know, by his home state, he must be worthy for us to offer even if we don't see him. So was honored to be able to start getting offers. My first one, I'll never forget it, was from Marshall University. I was like, Dad, I'm going to Marshall. He goes, well, let's just give it a second. You don't have to jump out like right out of the gate and uh and i ended up land in my dream school which was the university of tennessee peyton was king growing up for us at in in the state uh and and watching

him in the 90s in those glory years were him and t martin took it to a national championship and having the opportunity to wear the orange and white run out of the tea was was awesome so i always i mean so i talk to a lot of young guys these days and and athletes right and one of the things I tell them or encourage them to be as curious about their future, right? Like so many people I feel like, I think there's two kinds of athletes. I think there's the athletes that like really love it and they work really hard at it. And eventually they kind of like get their shot and they follow that dream. And then there's the athlete that's just like really good at it and they don't actually love it.

Where would you put your like, were you someone that you just had the talent, you had the thing and you had to chase it? Or do you think it was a mixture of both? I think it was a mixture of both for me. Football was not my first love. it was baseball i got involved with um with organized sports at four my dad was a a collegian athlete and he just wanted me involved with teams he wanted me to realize that that that that you being a part of something bigger than yourself was important it was about giving your all for something bigger than you and attaching yourself to that story um and watching a group of of people

achieve something that maybe a single or a singular couldn't. And it was really, I fell in love with baseball, did everything under the sun. You know, when we were kids, you remember, we didn't specialize. We played everything. Yeah. It's crazy these days. They're all playing one sport. It's wild.

And I see it more and more now, and I'm starting to hear more and more, even specifically in baseball. Now they're not just playing one sport, baseball. Now they're specializing to, like, pitcher only. So they're not even able to hit any more. and the families are traveling every single weekend to only watch their kid play every fifth game when they're supposed to pitch. And it's sad because the actual idea of sports, the synergies between sports life, sports

business, sports reality, there's so many skills that are transferable that we're seeing because we're going to that individualized specialization focus on me versus we, it's kind of diluting the purpose of the actual sport. me, I didn't love the X's and O's of football. I did that as a byproduct to what it could do knowing what I could do in terms of skill set and helping the other guys out around me and taking those teams to championship level type caliber and watching what it could do for them and their trajectory as well. I want to double click on dad for a minute. Is he so with us? Yeah. Was he there last night? Yeah, he was there last night. That was really cool.

So my relationship with my dad, I'll share this, was, and is special. He's 83 years old now. We had them on a couple months ago and people loved it because he's got all these old time, you know, remedies for life. But anyway, you know, we had this relationship around baseball that was like he wanted me be a pro baseball player and he was going to do everything he possibly could to make that happen, which I fell short of. But ultimately, in the years after kind of like my baseball career ended, it was this awkward time where we didn't, I didn't really know how to talk to them. Sure. You know, because it was like the only thing we talked about for the first 20. something years of my life and i'm just curious for you being there last night your dad being there you've written this book like proud dad oh my my father um the the example the example he was and is

for my brother and i was second to none my mother wanted to one of two got a younger brother about three and a half years younger he's got a great story he was the linebacker type always hurt you know broken shoulders ankles all the things um dad dad never i never saw my mother touch a door handle he was always showing us what it was supposed to look like don't get me wrong chivalry is not dead that's right that's right that's right that's right um but he he still had his bite he's a south georgia um raised raised in um in a little town called millageville georgia wow um and his father owned a firestone store tough basketball player was in the army um and and dad was very very big on discipline and he would always preach the golden rule do unto others as you would have them

do unto you um there was no if ends or butts about it my mother is is the is the glue of of of the household and and what she's been able to instill uh is second to numb but dad was um that that mentor that I looked up to who I talked to before every game I would off I would go off on my own couple hours before talk to him about anything but the game and just how are things you know just to kind of keep my mind off a kickoff um and just just just kind of that calming force he's the biggest guy in the house but he's um he's probably the um the the the softest when it comes to being able to keep things calm cool and collected so um yes i agree with you we when when i got done in 2016 i was in saskatchewan canada and i was on

that plane ride back like what am i going to do next and for the career you were done i was done i was done i just got done playing arena ball got an opportunity to go up to saskatchewan and playing canadian league and then got cut uh and it was like you're done thank you so much you got 15 minutes clean out your locker and i'm and find your flight home good luck um and it wasn't um it was business it wasn't like they were being inappropriate that's that's the game uh and and talking with him i remember he would want to talk about hey did you watch the packers play and i'm like no did you did you watch the balls play no and and for years when we talk about hate a game that gave me so much it's kind of funny how we resent sometimes that thing that kind

of helped give us the structure and what the book has even done is kind of give me that ability to love it again and say thank you for the hardships thank you for the transition thank you for the pain because those are now the spoils and the trophies that that give me that that fuel to go out there and help pay it forward yeah i mean the father's son relationship for me is sacred right and and And I think about the kids, I'm like a nerd, if you will, around kind of like men's mental health. Because I remember growing up, and there was no bad days. There was no, I'm not feeling good. There was no, I'm feeling a little anxious.

I'm feeling a little nervous. It was like, you know, you either deal with it or you talk to your dad and your dad gets you through it. That's how it was for me. And, you know, part of me thinks that that was good, like for me. But there's part of me that wishes. is and I think our world's making some strides in this direction that there was a little bit more attention being paid to like that moment right like when it all ends like your first thought is not like talk to a therapist talks no it's like I got to figure the shit out that's exactly right

and and now you're talking about for me when I really delved into the vulnerability side of being able to ask for help so last night when we were kind of sitting up and I was looking at this room and seeing all these unbelievable people who came into my life at very different times in very different years and very different, you know, levels and to see these folks and to transition it into me getting into the behavioral health space. Zach, that was an accident. Like, there was no, like, BJ's coming out of school. He studied health care or hospital administration.

He's going to go into the hospitals and he's going to help turn around these struggling or low-performing behavioral health assets. That was not how this played out whatsoever. I was in Nashville. I was working for a completely different company in a completely different industry. And one of the larger healthcare behavioral health conglomerates, one of those guys actually ended up being an alumni of my high school, Macaulay. And 25 years my senior went through Vanderbilt and kind of started mentoring me for

about six months up there and finally kind of popped the question you ever thought about hospital administration. And I quickly said, you hear how I talk like going into a hospital. Right. I should be on the farm, not in between four walls in a sterile environment. And he just said, I've hired suit after suit, NBA student after NBA student. We struggle to find folks that can bring people together and build teams. And that's what I've got a PhD. And this is being able to huddle folks up, aligning those players on one specific goal and pulling in that direction.

And what I found, Zach, to kind of tie it all back in, getting into that space, I found that I was recovering myself because I wasn't myself necessarily there for what the client was, but watching these therapists, watching these unbelievable unsung heroes in this space, all the way from the techs to the housekeeping function to keep the environment of care clean, all the way up to the top where you're looking at your director of clinical services, your director of nurses, to realizing what. it all entails and what goes into providing a recovery type environment for folks to heal, I was healing myself. And I tell folks now, I had the privilege of being a guest in the community, but what it did for me was far more important. I mean, I love that. And we see it. I mean, I see it in my work all the time. A lot of our patients and clients are former athletes, right, and they get that dream ripped out from under their, their, whatever you want to call, and they end up, you know, abusing drugs or they end up in a mental health crisis and they show up at our doorstep and they don't know where to turn. But it sounds to me like you probably learned some of

those skills on the field, right? So you leave Macaulay, you go to UT. Yeah. But it's a short stint there, right? Short stint, short stent. I had the privilege of going with like the iconic Philip Falmer. Yeah. David Cutcliffe. That was the one two combination that had Peyton and the crew. And then one year in, Cutcliffe gets a head coaching job. Duke and then things start to change quickly we get new offensive coordinator who want their own people and then coach former gets let go the next year and they brought in a new head coach and that head coach wanted his own guys very normal now at the time I didn't understand it I'm going I'm right here like this is it's me but looking back now realizing what that did

for me understanding how to hit the next button quicker and letting that roll off your back not defining you not playing the victim that's a that's a whole other topic we could into that I see so many folks subscribe to and not realize that there's a mirror that you can look into and you can control your controllables. And what you can't control, stop trying to control. And that was one of the toughest lessons for me was understanding that there are certain things that you don't have control over with folks that can see or can't see. And that's the whole thing behind recruiting.

That's the whole thing behind the business world in general. and just the general population and how people move around, you might see in me something that Jen might not see in me. And that's the cool part about life, but we oftentimes as humans will attach that to, I'm not good enough or, oh, poor pitiful me. Well, that really puts you at a, it puts you behind the eight ball in a position where you're trying to worry about something that you have no control over

because that's not, that's not where you're supposed to be. and being able to learn that piece of it really was lesson one for me in the pivot and you hit the button right you leave you leave Tennessee and ironically you walk into a pretty broken system broken system one in oh man we were like one in 11 the year prior to me getting there why did you choose I mean like what like you're at your

childhood dream school you're at university Tennessee Phil Fulmer Peyton Manning you are there and you hit the book like why why then why that school what was what was going through your mind at that i'm i'm fascinated whenever someone leaves a big time school and i mean walking into a one and eleven program and they can't be that sexy yes there was no nothing sexy about it um and it was also the time where there was no portal and you had to sit out a year if you transferred laterally so if i would have transferred to another big d1 school i would have had to lose a year of eligibility so i knew i wanted to go down chattanooga's where

my father played i knew i'd have the opportunity to get on the field i talked to some really intelligent mentor-esque type folks, including David Cutcliffe on, what do I do here? I'm in a bad spot, or so I thought. I'm not going to be this guy's guy. And I know that my clock at that time, you only truly got five years. And you could get redshirted and play four.

Or you could just play four if you were a true freshman getting to burn. And I knew that my clock was now ticking. I'd already put two years in. I only had three left, and that clock wasn't going to stop. So Chattanooga ended up being a great option for me because I knew that they needed a quarterback, and it was my hometown. And they were looking, I mean, really,

it was at a point where they were looking at actually terminating the program. And I was always growing up in a household where my mother, who was an educator, was going into these depressed or deflated inner city elementary schools and turning them around. Wow. So that's where I really learned the playbook. It was ingrained. Oh, yeah. And she's from Brooklyn.

Right over here down the road, raised on Long Island out in Suffolk County, five foot two. She'd be mad, I said it. But she, but she's just, we won't tell mom. We can, we can, we can, we can, we can, we can, uh, bleep that out. There it is. There it is. Uh, but, but she is the, the true driver behind how I do all this stuff now. But yeah, one and 11, and then we were able to take them to six and six the next three.

You walk, and you start, you walk in, you start in for day one. Day one. When I got there, Zach, there were two, when I called my first seven on seven, with the team only two people showed up one defensive player and one offensive player fast forward through the first year january 10th 2010 we call seven on seven to do winter workouts 52 people showed up so watching the transformation was something that i had the privilege to do didn't even know that was not what i signed up for when i was going out of senior year high school into u t walking into a machine not realizing at the time having to let go of that dream to

to step on the field unconsciously set me up to be that kind of turnaround, you know, focus on something that is maybe a depressed or deflated type of entity and be able to see it grow. And it's a fascinating position to be in and it's a very difficult position if you don't have that, if you don't have that mindset or skill set, which is very different from maybe walking into the University of Alabama playing quarterback when there's 22, other guys around you that are just machines at what they do. Not saying that that guy can't play,

but that's a very system-esque type quarterback versus a Josh Allen who came from Wyoming, who had to be the guy. He could not take a Saturday off. A bad game, they lose. If he has a good game, they have a shot at winning, not guarantee, but they have a shot. But then he takes that into Buffalo and he turns that team around. So it's a pretty unique, I wouldn't trade it for the world, position, but now looking back and reflecting from the book, I understand why I'm going to ask you, I'm going to ask you a question about leadership and I don't want your humble answer. Did you always know, did you always know that you were a leader? Like, did you know, because I had that voice. Like I always knew and I faked it until I made it. You know, like I would be the guy on the sidelines, hyping people up and whatever. And sometimes it didn't always land well. But did you know?

Yeah. My mom. used to say you're a leader like it's i'm telling you now like you need to understand it's you're a leader not a follower what you do with that power and that gravity um is is going to be up to you and you're you need to use that for good and typically when you're a leader and you're going to be able to relate to this if you're leading well you're typically not the fan favorite in the room right you have to make the unpopular decision for the greater good of the group there's real loneliness that comes along with that. There are folks that are going to create noise

because you've now identified the low performer and started to isolate that low performer because now you've gone into institutions where folks are used to the squeaky wheel get in the grease, which means you eventually lose the high performer because they're sitting back waiting, not making the noise,

and they're watching the squeaky wheels get what they want. So if you're doing what you're supposed to do and doing it well, you're typically the most unpopular one there in the building. Yeah. I mean, when you talk about the quarterback position, so I'm an Eagles fan, I'm a, I'm a Philadelphia Eagles fan. And it's, it's our quarterback right now, Jalen Hertz, right? People love to take this guy out to the woodshed and say that he doesn't have the skill set to play quarterback in the NFL. What I see are the stats that are most important to me is a super all ring on his finger, right? And a win loss record that, you know, defends itself. Can you talk to me a little bit about that? Because these quarterbacks will come along. They'll be all world players, but they can't win. That's right. That's right. That's right. Right. You see that now even in recruiting at the younger levels. Jalen is a guy. You just summed it up in one word. He's a winner. He's going to figure out. If it's not flowing well, he will figure out how to manufacture points on the board, whether that's with his feet, his mind, his arm. Hey, listen, it's third down, 12 yards to go. I'm going to complete a four-yard pass to make a 60-yard punt, a 64-yard punt, and really piecing the game together because he can see that. He understands what that that means. There's a lot of other guys that are going to be maybe positioned a little bit better

simply because of their numbers or because of the eye test where they're six foot six and they can throw a ball 70 yards and understand the difference between cover two and man. But ultimately, you can't coach what Jalen has and his tenacity, his approach, his preparation. They're second to none. And you see that in both the recommendations. and how his teammates respond to him and rally around him. So when these guys are recruiting a guy like Jalen Hertz or who's the dude out of UCLA, Josh Rosen, like the guy never got on the field, right?

Like he just never played like there's got to be conversations like we're having now where the executives walk away and they're like, I just don't think this guy has it. I think I think that you're going to see a combinations act of both. There's a political component to it. Let's take me for an example. You got B.J. Coleman out of the University of Tennessee, Chattanooga, or I'm going to take somebody that maybe played at the University of Texas. I'm going to take the Texas guy just because if he busts, I can say, well, he played for Texas. We could have never guessed that the

University of Tennessee Chattanooga guy maybe would have made it. But if we take the Chattanooga guy and he doesn't work and this one does, we got egg on our face over here. So there's a political component to it where a lot of times, unfortunately, and you've seen it, right? We've created this as people where, you know, it's what have you done for me lately? The seats are always hot at the top And how do you vet whether or not somebody's going to be that guy or not? Maybe he's a little too short, maybe he's a step too slow. Maybe he's a guy that would be great for the locker room, but that's just not enough. We need somebody that's going to go in there and be the next JJ Watt and going to lead the defense.

But it's so difficult now to call that because of all of the data-driven analytics that they're using in the game now because you can't measure heart. The Tom Brady's, the Drew breezes, those guys, man, they bled for that locker room and those teammates around them. And Jalen is one of those guys who'll lay it all in the line. Yeah.

So you go to Chattanooga, you go six and six in your first year. When do you start seeing the scouts show up? When do you start seeing that, oh, wow, I'm here at this small little school and they're still looking at me? 2010, so 2009 first year, six and six. really helped to see a team turn to a 500 team after being pretty much O-Ferve. I think the only team they beat on that 1-11 team

was a Division 2 team. So seeing that turnaround really helped spark a lot of interest. And then 2010 was our best year of my three years there. Had a really senior veteran offensive line. Gave me a lot of time to get folks open down, feel create plays if it wasn't there out of the gate. And we started beating some people and really beating some teams that we hadn't beat for a long, long time.

performed really well against Auburn that year, and they won the national championship that year. So started seeing the scouts kind of roll in there, had kind of even had some talks with the head coach of scouts asking if I was going to come out early, and they advised, stay in, do your last year. But I knew after that 2010 year, I had a real shot at potentially at least getting a swing, if not get drafted. So you do get drafted by the Green Bay Packers. They had a decent quarterback at the time. Yeah, you know. He's a household name now. Aaron Rogers. Was it right? It was Rogers then, right? Not far. Yeah, Rogers. What can you give me on him? Like what, what, what is misunderstood about Aaron Rogers as a leader? Yeah. I think Aaron had such a gift

to connect with guys in the locker room and bring everybody together as I was mentioning to you. Maybe it didn't look the same as maybe Peyton did it or Tom did it or Drew did it. It wasn't wasn't maybe the most conventional. Aaron, outside of the fact that he was one of the most gifted athletes at the position to ever play the game, period. In his heyday, his mind, his ability to see things happen before they happen, this dude was playing chess while everybody else was out there playing checkers. Brilliant guy, very, very studious, loved, loved the game.

Like the X's and O's was his game. But you're backing up Aaron Rogers, and there's got to be an element and correct me if I'm wrong, but you're sitting there like, I can't do that. Oh, of course. And they would try to turn us into that some, where it was like, we need you on the run. I'm like, man, I'm not that guy. I'm more of your patent stationary in the pocket, distribute the football, use the brain, shift the line. But Aaron could do both.

And it was just amazing in practice to watch, discouraging, discouraging when you're talking with some of the offensive. minds in the room and they're sitting here like listen with all due respect they would never say it but you could just see it in their face you're never going to play here like this guy is going to be here for another 10 years so the investment time um is is tough to get at that but the experience of watching him lead um and get folks to follow that was the education for me in that locker yeah i mean that's what i want to i want to zoom in on that a little bit because you're you're obviously a smart guy you've done well for yourself you got the book you got the book coming out you you're turning behavioral health care companies around being in that NFL locker

room watching humans on a daily basis what what was your biggest takeaway like what were you paying attention to in terms of the guys that were performing the guys that weren't performing the coaches what stuck out to you preparation I wanted to see the guys who acted like professionals and prepared like professionals discipline is something that gets thrown around a lot that people say they do. And everybody wants to win. Everybody wants the accolades. Everybody wants to be successful. But the time, energy pain that you have to put into that. And the sacrifice that comes along with that on the personal side, whether it be individual or from a family perspective, is real. So watching the guys who balanced that, some of them, Zach, they were so naturally gifted.

It didn't matter. It didn't. But finding the ones who you knew, I'll give you a great example, Donald Driver, Alcorn State. That was a guy who walked in as a seventh rounder and went, every single day I show up, I can't miss. I better make sure I get my nine hours asleep. I better make sure I do my thousand pushups. I better make sure I'm in that training room so that my body can perform the next day at the same level. I can't afford to get tired or somebody else is going to. to come in and swoop and to watch folks like him who know how to prepare, who are consistent, who are discipline, and then see how the naturally gifted athletes rally around those guys, it almost switches. When we're young, it's who's the best player. That's not enough at that level. And I learned that myself up there. You had to have the passion and the love, but you also had to have the discipline and the preparation

to be successful. Yeah. So, I mean, it's fascinating to me. I'm 41 and, you know, through my travels, I've gotten to know some guys in the league and befriended some of these folks. And the thing that sticks out to me the most is these are humans. These are, these are, these guys getting drafted and they are boys. It's exactly right.

And I forget that. Like, I'll be watching them on a Sunday and they'll drop a pass at 23 years old and I'll be all pissed off. But it's like, he's a kid. Yeah. It's, um, it's hard for me to watch football with other folks now because of that very thing. Well, you're ruined for everyone, right? I get it now. And I'm like, man, you guys, I look at it, first of all, from a quarterback lens.

So I'm already analytical on it already, but then listening to some of the fans, which is why the game exists and why it's become as big as it has. But just listening, I can't, I can't, Zach, even sit and listen to some of the commentary that comes from these guys because they are humans. They put their pants on one leg at a time, and we have the same struggles as just about everybody else. Sometimes that can be magnified because your life is a little bit more on blast. We chose it. We knew what we were getting into. And if we didn't, it's not because, you know, there was any kind of intention behind that. But you figure out real quick that that spotlight's on you.

And you have to be on all the time. You have to be on all the time. If you're out to, if you're out to dinner, you're trying to enjoy yourself. And somebody walks up and once you autograph, you say no. You're now the worst thing that they've, oh, I can't believe that. he's such a jerk and that's tough for some of those young kids when they're coming out and trying to figure out how what that's going to look like because we have the same problems that everybody else does and so how long do you do the NFL thing

NFL was 2012 and 13 cut that cut right after camp in 13 and then finish the rest of the year out in 13 at home no team bounced around on some practice squads for a couple weeks and then let go still training picked back up at the end of 14 in the arena football league

loved it was a lot of fun ended up going finishing that season out going back home getting picked up in 16 with Saskatchewan one up in Canada

and then got hurt just for a quick minute and then that was it somebody else kind of moved in hey man appreciate you kid game's over good luck to you

and it was said just about like that It wasn't personal, but it was like, we've, we're going to go another direction. And at that point, it was over. And I mean, how do you prepare for, like, it's grief, right? It's lost. It's trauma. Like, how do you, and I know the book talks about this and this is kind of what I want to get into.

How do you prepare for life after football? Yeah. I think, and I've been asked a couple of times, hey, you need to come in and you speak some of the college kids. And I said, they're not ready for that. You have to get to a point where you've got to hit the next button. and your backs against the wall and you get to see who you really are and the prep there is no playbook

for the prep side but this book is more of a manual of how to how to put one foot in front of the other and move versus getting stuck in becoming that guy who when you return to your hometown you were the guy who got drafted and now that ember

starts to slowly burn out and you're trying to figure out do I go back and coach do I go hang a shingle and do the insurance thing you know do you do you get involved locally with the the habitat for humanity or and doing all the give back stuff but there's still that burning desire of i was once at the top of the mountain now i've fallen how do you reinvent self and that's where the book really came in for me is i started to put that on paper and i wanted to really be able to create that manual and it's a 10-year

process. I mean, for me, it was a, um, it's tough. I, I, I, you scratch, claw fight by, I mean, you're, you're moving around trying to figure out how to get back to the NFL of life. And that doesn't just happen overnight. It's, it's preparation. It's disciplines. The same skills, you know exactly how to use that book, playbook to get back. But it's a, it's a, uh, it's a very different locker room. If I can say it that way. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine that the same way that you won in your football career is how you're winning 100% off the field and if you stack your life up against a lot of your ex-teammates i'm sure there's not a ton of jealousy i mean you've made a pretty good life for yourself grateful um it it like like

like like we've already talked about it doesn't come without the scars it doesn't come without those those nights where you know you you just sit there and you you're you're figuring out did i let folks down like how do i tap into this next chapter vulnerability is not my thing i am i very much like yourself you you rub dirt on it and you go that's how i was raised you know listen i don't don't want to hear it. If you want to be a part of the team, you listen to the coach. Like there was no like, let's process this. And let's, let's unpack why this is happening. And again, I'm grateful for a lot of those lessons. But I think when you have to hit that next button is when you really got to start working on the inside, not just what everybody perceives

you to be on the outside. And that that is ultimately the formula for being able to. to make that transition. I'll say it to you this way. You can have the playbook. The coaches can put you in position to make the tackle, but you still got to make the tackle. Right. So I'm not I'm not saying that just because we put you in position or that you follow the manual that you're going to be the next author or the next CEO or the next, you know, big deal. It's about giving you an opportunity and a swing. Well, the thing's interesting for me is like I always assume that people wanted the same things that I want. Some people don't want to make that tackle. No. You know, some people just want to hold the water cooler or they want to, you know, drive the van or they want to

and they're completely fine punching in, punching out, having their hobbies outside of work. And that's one of the biggest lessons I've had to learn because I want to push everyone, right, to be like I am. And my dad always told me, like, Zach, there's no one that's going to care about your company more than you ever. So lose that expectation. Sure. If they give you half of what you want, you're going to be thrilled. You got it.

And so, you know, it's just, it's very, it's very interesting. Like, I think leadership is something that I wish everyone wanted to be, but the reality is, is they're not. They're not. People don't want to be leaders. I'll tell you, too, Zach, and I'd be interested in even hearing your take on this. Sight is something that I realize not a lot of people have. Or they may see different things like we were talking about earlier, what one coach may see in a kid, another coach may not. But sight is so critical also, too.

and we get discouraged when somebody doesn't see us. All we want to do is be seen for what we are, what we think, what we feel. And when we don't get seen, we feel as though we are inadequate or not good enough. Well, that's really just not, it's not true. I think what that's doing, if you can open your eyes wide enough to realize

that they're actually doing you a favor and saying, this isn't for you, maybe you need to go look elsewhere. And if you then get there sooner, you've now actually served that person better than giving them a false sense of security. So site for me is something that is, it's a blessing and a curse because once you can see, you no longer have the privilege of that deniable plausibility. And what I mean by sight, from a quarterback perspective, understanding when that blitz is coming,

hey, the mic's off center. You know they're about to bring the mic and Sam. We need to shift the line, build in the backside hot. And I used to think everybody could see that. Right. To your point, that's not necessarily true. But what I focused on so that the book could serve those higher performing folks that do want to make the tackle, it's putting people in position to be successful. And once you get them to the field, the coolest part about it is you win twice because that person realizes just because they had the playbook doesn't mean that they didn't have any part in it. And now that they can go be a part of that success and they can own their own future and trajectory and learn how to pivot is a, is a pretty neat thing.

I'm with you 100% of the way here. And I'm thinking about some of the stuff I read prior sitting down and talking to you. And you touched on a little bit of it earlier is this whole idea of like being the victim, right? And there's so many victims in this world today. Everyone's playing the victim card. And two was this idea that there are things that we can control and there are things that we can control. and there are things that we cannot control, and it's very important to understand the things that we can control

and do them really well. So I'm curious how you apply that to your real life. What I'm hearing is that you were put into this opportunity by this guy that was from your high school, that was mentoring you. He basically told you that he thought you had a skill set. You didn't think you were qualified or had the degree or whatever piece of paper that the world is supposed to kind of stamp the approval that you had that skill set.

So how did you work through? the idea that, you know, I might not have this degree, but I can do the job. Yeah. Because I think that's important. Like my degree is bullshit. It's sport management. Like I'm not doing anything with it. You know, and so it is what it is. I adopted the concept of fail, get up, fail faster. I knew that if I was put in a position to make the mistake, I won't make the same one twice. So not being afraid. I call it the Mayweather effect. I love boxing. I think Floyd Mayweather, if not the best, one of the best that will ever put the gloves on. But the 52 and O approach is not real if you're

trying to grow. You don't grow inside of a comfortable state. You've got to be willing to go out there. Create an environment where you're going to have to be vulnerable. You're going to have to put it all out there, be willing to fail, get up, close the gap, fail faster. So I used to talk to folks is we're not here to fix anything. We're here to celebrate gaps. What do you mean? This broke this is awesome we have an opportunity now to close that gap and what that does is is is it brings that whole leadership team together to focus on this gap that they saw as such a negative to now only see it close it doesn't have to close all the way but if you're 30% better you've improved the operational function and then the beneficiary is the client as well as those staff which are the people who are

taking care of the people so failing getting up and fail faster I had three I had three key points I would tell myself every day after I would tell myself when I woke up, it's one foot in front of the other today. Because it wasn't the locker room I was used to. I'm walking into a leadership team who oftentimes in this space, as you know, are in recovery themselves, who have had to go through a change in their life in real adversity. Maybe started as me, me, me, people. Don't understand the we concept where you're protecting the guy on your right and on your left. And you're trying to literally get them to understand the concept of team. No I. team. So I would focus on three main things. The first would be control, which you can control.

It's, you can't worry about the things that the noise create, that the critics are saying, that the papers are writing. You can only focus on the things that are within your control in order to be the best version of yourself. Second was remove self. It is not about you. You check that ego at the door, whether or not you got something going on at home. whether or not that you've got, you're a caretaker for your grandmother or your mother, you've got to walk in that door and you've got to be able to bring your best and it's not about you. And then finally, you take your story, you're human and you attach it to the greater good of the whole, which for us, we take the leadership team, we attach it to the hospital,

you take the hospital and you attach it to the community that you're serving. And that's the beautiful part about turning these things around is these are community resources. I don't think you or anybody else could tell me that we don't need in these communities. We don't have more beds than there are folks struggling with substances. We don't have more beds than there are folks that are struggling with alcohol. They just maybe have not come out and said that they need help yet. So putting together a leadership team and a culture that fuels and enhances ownership. So I talk all the time about hand raising versus finger pointing. It's about us owning our decisions and moving together versus playing that victim and saying, well, that's not

me. I did my part. I sent the email. You didn't get it. I'm like, well, did you call? Did you follow up with a snail mill? Whatever you got to do. That was something for me. Fail, get up, fail faster. And then those three, control what you can control, remove self, attach yourself to something bigger than you are, it really gave me a shot to really engage and put myself in a totally different environment that wasn't the locker room. So you, so, so in short, today, your specialty is going into these large behavioral health care systems and turning them around. Is that that that's it?

Accurate. Mm-hmm. I go in, assess kind of the P&L. There's three. there's three main legs in any one of these entities you're looking at the financial component you look at the clinical component and you look at the operational component they all three have to mesh together you can balance the two and it's it's specific to for-profit entities and you've got to make sure that you keep all of those three in balance one goes out you can absolutely feel it and what

the misconception is is oh you only care about the money therefore the quality or clinical falls In some cases, that's accurate. And those don't make it very long. You see those come out pretty clearly. But oftentimes people believe that the more humans you have creates a safer, more quality environment. And that's not true. It's the quality of human and program that you're running with the ownership and accountability at the top that gets pushed down throughout the organization that really changes. the game in some of these lower performing assets. So when I go in, I quickly identify that morning

meaning and the objectives we're talking about, identify the high performers, which usually they don't come forward until after about 30 days because they want to see if I'm a flavor of the month. Well, we've seen these guys. Typically, I'm going in and I'm the fifth guy in 12 months. They're like, oh my God, here's another one. And he talks funny this time. So this is the same here we go so letting those noisier low performers come out first and then those high performers start to show themselves i lean in hard there isolate the lows and the folks that are on the fence make a decision pretty quick i used to do it the opposite i used to focus on the middle to try to get them to high only to find that none of those folks were willing to really tell you what they wanted to tell you to

their face they were too scared to do that focus on the highs they'll tell you which part of the middle's want to make it and the lows will exit and try to go somewhere else that they can go to that they know is dysfunctional so that then they can they can kind of coast over there until it gets found out but that noise is real when you go into those places because you're having to make those unpopular decisions and stand that thing back up what's the number one thing you're saying in behavioral health care in general like what is the number one issue with these organizations that are not being well run leadership that's simple it's the folks that are in that operator role. But is that crazy? Like, that's still the answer. Well, think about it, Zach. How many,

how many use myself, again, not better than anybody, but that are willing to go in and make that tough decision when your leadership, think about this, and I'll connect the dots here. Most of your operator, some people call them executive directors, some people call them CEOs. Most of them get promoted from within and are oftentimes the best soldier. that was I was the best nurse I was the best clinician not necessarily ever having any kind of general or management training so just because you're a good soldier doesn't make you a good general and leadership 101 is often skipped over because a great nurse or a great clinician you know oftentimes are in very tough positions where they're having to

manage the personalities of all of those other clinicians and nurses and folks think being liked is the key to being a good manager. And it's quite the opposite of that. And that is oftentimes in these organizations, you see these internal promotions, or even if it's an outside promotion, and these folks coming in, and they've never had any of that leadership training

where it's a focus on making the tough call for the greater good of the group. It's just not there. Yeah. it's not rocket science i'll tell you that right now it's no i mean it's it's like you know what i pre what like i think for me and i've like you probably toured too many of these programs and whether it be a residential treatment program or a sober living or a hospital the thing that always sticks out to me is just how poorly managed they are i mean the knickknacks the papers the workbooks in the corner the bathrooms are dirty and so i always tell our team like it doesn't cost

any more money to take care of our stuff, whether we're buying the most expensive stuff in the world or the cheapest stuff in the world, it can look good to the outside eye so long as we're kind of like doing this all together. And, you know, you look at some of these Medicare, Medicaid programs, because they are taking Medicare, it feels like they, they've given themselves permission to be run like a shithole. And that just doesn't make sense to me. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of folks. that don't understand the value of doing the little things. It doesn't cost anything to make rounds,

to engage your staff, to say thank you, to call out when you need to call out where we're being inefficient and how we need to get better. But when you look at the single greatest problem, I used to think it was talent acquisition and burnout. But I'll tell you,

I think it's more so now people wanting to follow those people that can really lead. And we've created an environment where the high performer is the one that is getting the boot because we're giving into the noise because of the belief that we don't have enough of the volume in the workforce to do it. That's not accurate. We have the workforce. We've just got to have leaders hold folks accountable. Well, I mean, that's how many meetings I can speak myself have i had the reoccurring weekly meeting you miss it one week and then it's gone yep oh we missed it last week and then this week i have a dense appointment so we're not going to do it this week and you miss two weeks or you miss one week and all the sudden that meeting which was

you know a key meeting every week is now gone that's right there's no one holding anyone accountable for it and we've decided that it's just not important that's right i had a guy tell me one time and it was it stuck with me forever zach and this will make sense to you he said if i told you you're going to be a 10-year pro-bowl quarterback, potential Hall of Fame ballot guy. And all you had to do was a thousand push-ups, a thousand sit-ups, and a thousand pull-ups every day. Why would you do 999? Right. Because tomorrow you'll do 950, 7-50, and you'll become just like the rest.

It's about staying consistent, holding yourself accountable, maintaining that discipline. And, Zach, just to be very blunt, I don't see a lot of that. not just in this space but in in the in the workforce in the in the in the different industries that I've had the privilege of serving it is it starts at the top that's such a cliched verse now and people have created their own way of of of interpreting that and writing books on all that I'm here to tell you leadership is is tough it's lonely it's unpopular it's challenging it's brutal you get beat up if you do it right that's how it feels because oftentimes people are always questioning is he a good guy you should be in there he's running all these people off he this can't be right

but that's and there are folks that ask your friend jenn before she knew who i was she said i didn't know about you watching her from afar i said you and everybody else get in line it's the truth and it's challenging and um i think we have allowed as a society for mediocrity to take over. Yeah. So it's bullshit, but it really shouldn't be shocking that this is what we're doing now

and having trouble dotting the eyes, crossing the T's, keeping the papers out of the corner, as you said, because I think that folks are scared in a way to challenge the status quo and be great because then now they've got to go

against the rest of the crew because they are going to be the minority at that time. Well, this is selfishly very helpful for me because the seat I sit in, can feel lonely. It can feel tough. It's nice to know that I kind of have a resource now to call on when I'm in one of those jackpots and got to make that tough decision that no one wants to make. And look, like, as an empath and as someone who is in recovery and has been through this and employs a lot of people that, you know, have gone, you know, it's hard for me not to

think about their families and their kids and take on that. But at the end of the day, like, if there's no business, there is no nothing. Period. No money, no mission. I never hesitate to actually share that when I go in guys look we're a business first 90 days gonna be tough I even use the word bloody I'm like we've got to shed the old skin you've got to rip some of this old culture out it's going to be challenging but I promise you if you give it a hundred days you're going to see the high performers the cream start to really rise to top and the culture changes on its own people get such a misconception and I know we don't have a ton of time but they get such a misconception on focusing on the culture feel good versus results the outcome right and if

you'll focus on the outcome you attract the humans that are high performing that want to win which ultimately will set the culture we've tried that we've we've we've flipped it we've we've literally flipped it around and and because maybe we've read a book or we've looked at maybe the way or style a certain leader has done it it's about oh well if we create a really high vitality where people feel good then we will have a great outcome that's not true that's not true the feel good and culture component comes from being able to protect and serve from from the front and usually the person at the front going through the gate first gets the bloodiest and being able to set that tone where high performers want to gravitate towards creates the culture in and of itself and then

the winner is going to be this not only the staff but the patient there they're the beneficiary of a good staff who are high performing super competent and love what they do and you've created purpose now inside of four walls that is just as powerful as a community at large, which is really cool. Yeah, you got to keep score. Got to keep score. I mean, like, look, and we're teaching our kids to not teach score or keep score. My, my brother's kids are, you know, everybody wins. Everyone gets a trophy. And that's fine to a certain degree. I get it. Like, we're trying, you know, it's all love. But at some point, for me, it was important to know, like, am I doing well? Am I not doing well? Did I make a mistake? Can I learn from this mistake?

I mean, Grace will laugh at every leadership meeting. All I says, I love making mistakes. Oh, that's right. You know, that's right. That's that fail, get up, fail faster because you learn. Nobody wants to lose. I'm not talking about fail to a point where you lose. Right.

I'm talking about fail. Some people call it fail forward. I'm talking about don't be afraid to step out there, be vulnerable and learn. You learn in those uncomfortable states. But the everybody get a trophy model gives not just kids, but adults, even the same you're creating an environment where folks don't have to be great

they don't have to improve self they don't have to work on themselves they just go I'll take the pill I want to lose weight I'll take the pill I don't want to do this I'll just I'll take the pill and they want that quick hitter versus the pain and time it takes to be I call it the franchisable model

where you can do it consistently the Bill Belichicks the Nick Savans those folks who know how to win year in, year out, regardless of the name on the back of the jersey. It's about the name on the front. Yeah. It's really cool. Yeah. No, it's, it's all good stuff, man.

And look, like, one of the things I always say is, like, if you don't want to be here, you don't have to be here. Like, I want people that want to be here, right? Like, in the organization, in my orbit, in my world, it's not emotional. I think that's something that I've learned. You know, when I talk to a 23, 24, 25-year-old kid who's having a ton of success, I say,

just wait bro, you're going to get punched in the mouth like you are absolutely going to get punched in the teeth and you're going to be scooping your you know two front teeth off the ground and and crying for mom and asking for help no one does this life perfectly that's right you know and so I think for us as guys who you know I've been around a little while now I'm 41 like some of those experiences I hope to get to kind of like pass on to the younger generation but you nailed it there and that's something that's also missed Zach You don't have to be here, like you said. That's not the approach that you see a lot of these operators taking,

specifically in these behavioral health organizations or hospitals at large. They're worried about people leaving. And what that does is creates a handicap model where you're now allowing the tail to wag the dog. You've lost at that point. And to rip that out is twice as hard because now they're used to, if I get loud enough with my microphone, I'm going to get what I want. And that's the whole challenge right now is then they give in

and then they're right back to square one and now you've lost the P&L and your quality and ops have started to decrease as well because you've lost control of the enemy. I'm always, and we don't probably have time to dig into it but I'm always curious about therapists, right? It's like, your case loads 10, you're frying out, right?

If I start to pay you more based on the outcome in these 10 cases, what you're working to look like? Yeah. I'm just curious. Like, like, well, you know, like if this person stays, and they complete the program in good standing and this is checked as a positive outcome however we're going to measure that internally you're going to work a little i i don't i don't know the answer like i think there's there's people that are probably on both sides of that um i do know that therapists are historically underpaid you know like that's an issue in this world and they're the ones doing the direct care like like teachers

you know teachers get screwed um but that's something that's probably not going to be an overnight matter to fix no no no and those are the unsung heroes. I will agree with you there. Special people, helping people. What I hope to do from the leadership role is to be that person to help the folks who help the folks. In order to do that, you've got to create accountability. You have to make the unpopular decision because you're going to retain the ones that you are going to be able to help take you to where you want to be on that scoreboard. I'm a believer in measuring. You have to measure to know if you're getting better or worst if you think you're staying in the same you're going backwards bj coleman ladies and gentlemen look them up give me the name of the book one more time the pivot the pivot no there's a whole long

title give the whole buddy you know it better than i do right the pivot by b j coleman where can people find it you know that it's on amazon are you do you have any public relations that you want to share listen listen i'm i'm honored to be on here just for you guys to support me and and vice versa the book itself is uh is a manual to help folks in their in their life shifts and transitions it's on Amazon. Please go check it out. Again, thank you. Really appreciate it. You're paying it forward, man. I learned a lot today. I know the listeners have learned a lot. I see a lot of nodding heads from Grace and Naya and Jen who are watching right now. So hopefully, you know, something knowledgeable was shared with the audience today. But BJ Paul, once again, thank you.