The Zac Clark Show - Sex, Therapy and Addiction: NYC Therapist Reina Zelonky on Balancing Love, Family, and Healing

Episode Date: December 3, 2024

On this episode of The Zac Clark Show, Zac sits down with Reina Zelonky, a renowned New York City psychotherapist whose career spans over 13 years of helping families, couples, and young adults find healing and connection. From her impactful work at The Freedom Institute and Serenity New York to her leadership roles at Hazelden Betty Ford, Reina has built a career centered on addiction recovery, families, and relationship-building. In their conversation, Zac and Reina discuss the challenges of balancing demanding careers with family life in New York City, the evolving roles of men and women in modern relationships, and the unique pressures of raising children in an urban environment. Reina also shares insights on maintaining a healthy sex life, the transformative benefits of couples therapy, and the reality that therapy often means facing your childhood. Packed with heartfelt stories and practical advice, this episode offers meaningful discussions on navigating life’s complexities while fostering connection and community. Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right, welcome back to the Zach Clark Show. I am here today with one of my favorite humans, a colleague of mine, a friend of mine. We've been doing this work together in behavior of health care for way too long. Raina Zalaki, what is up? So good to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah. So Raina, if you're listening, is a therapist in private practice here in New York.

She runs a private practice on the Upper East Side, Upper West Side. And you're like in the middle of this thing. couples, families, parents, children. Like, she is a very well-known therapist here in New York City. And I've watched her just continue to grow, which has been really cool. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm good.

It's a juggle. You know, the working mom thing. I have three kids, too. Three kids, too. So therapist, mom, everything to everyone. Yeah, never a dull moment. And the youngest is six. months seven months yeah five three and seven months yeah and running a private practice yeah are you back

at work full time yeah all right so we got to start where we started and we're going to get into it all today and hopefully answer um some questions for people out there just around love relationships navigating difficult times but we started in this chaotic time and we were we were kids you were working at hazleton right i was working for serenity which is no longer around you came over to work for us and we i look back on that time very fondly i do too i do too i have a lot of nostalgia it was a little bit of the wild wild west but if you look at that roster like the people that were working for us we were all young but we were all very passionate about behavior health care substance abuse mental health yeah we were very pumped up and i just think there was like

really good it was good energy i mean good chemistry everyone got along and yeah and you were our program director and you were like man i just think back of like and look there's people that got well there's people that got well there's people you know in this city today like I run around and I forget that I've been doing this work for now you know 13 years nearly 13 years and you're right there too I mean how long have you been yeah if 13 14 years yeah because before that I was at the VA and yeah so it's been a long it was cool when and there were moments where like we had like six houses that were just full and we were running around

in the middle of the night phone calls and we did not have a work life balance but we've both grown from that experience I think and I've just been such a big fan of yours for so many years and watching you we don't get to see each other as much obviously anymore you having three kids and being in private practice and me running a business

and being all over the place but every time we do see each other there's a huge embrace and we know we have each other's back which is yeah which is nice yeah Why did you, why did you, why, why, why become a therapist? You know, I feel like I wanted to be a therapist from like age seven. I don't know.

I just always, I was the type of kid that like if my parents were talking to friends, I'd be like hiding. You know, I'd say I'd go in and sleep, but I was like hiding and like listening. You know, like I, I just am so, I mean, it's not that I'm not in it to help people, but I'm also just so curious and so interested in people. I think growing up in New York City in kind of a very fast-paced culture, I saw a lot. And I really wanted to go back to that space and connect with other teens and families and help kind of maybe give that support in a way that I didn't get.

As a kid. Yeah, as a kid. And, you know, I just, I think that so many people's paths can be rerouted when, And there's like early intervention and support. And I just think New York City in particular is just like, it's an intense place. When you get really smart, really hardworking people. But yeah, I just think people's mental health struggle with all of the pressure. Yeah.

No, I would agree with that. I mean, I think that even for me today being in the city for whatever it is, 12, 13 years now, I keep like putting times on things. But it's there are days where it's hard. It's hard to navigate just the noise. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I just, I think it's a, it's a rat race. I think it's very competitive. And you could be a really big fish somewhere else, but you're going to be here. And you're just, you know, you're competing with a lot of other really driven, really ambitious, intelligent, hardworking people. Yeah. So you knew at seven. You're born and raised in New York City. You saw a lot.

You kind of wanted to give back. You go through high. Did you do the private high school? thing? Yeah, I went to Trinity, like a really intense, probably the most intense prep school in Manhattan, which was actually good for me because I was a little wild, and so it was like guardrails. But yeah, and then I got out of here for college. My dad was like, you know, we got to get out. So my buddy, Matt Ranklin, was just, he's one of my co-founders at release. He was just in here, and you guys were talking about, I mean, can we talk about the New York City

private school? I mean, it is insane to me. I don't have kids, but. Yeah. he's telling me that they're you know or like you know what like you go interview I mean you're five years old and taking your kids are you doing this now or we did it last year and I said to myself this is a walk in the park I mean I grew up here

like this is not going to bother I got this right and I mean I was pregnant with my third kid so that just makes your emotions a little more crazy I mean it was wild I did not expect to be so shook

and so emotional by all of it I mean you've just got it's very competitive the other parents or everyone's kind of secretive and comparing notes and you know they take these kids in these rooms to do testing and IQ testing I mean it's just so

crazy and it just makes you really think like do I want to live here is this the right place so I just think are we manufacturing like these chaotic existence for these children I mean, for me, I went, look, I have no judgment.

I understand that New York City is a grid, and there are some really good public schools. There are not, some not so good public schools. As a parent, you need to make whatever decision you feel is best for your children, right? But what I learned about therapy and, like, family of origin and how you're raised to be thrown in a room at five, six, seven years old and be interviewed and basically accepted or denied. the crazy thing is I don't actually think the kids like I don't think they know what's going on I mean my son just thought it was kind of fun and special time with us I think it's it's really grading on the parents and this is where like I you know when parents bring a kid to therapy and they're like fix my kid you're like hold on let's start with you like let's really go there

first because it's such a parallel process raising a child and like it is like someone who's holding up a mirror like all your stuff comes up you were bullied on the playground Like, you're going to see your kid and project that fear on your kid. You were struggling with food as a teenager. Like, everything you might feel like you've dealt with, it's going to come up in ways you had no idea. And so I think this journey of, like, getting your kid into prep school, if you're going to do that, is like,

it really stirs the pot for, like, a lot of parents that don't even realize they have this stuff. Yeah, that's so interesting. So. What are your, what are your, what are, what are you? your final take on it as a therapist. I don't know. I think it really just goes down to like believing in yourself, you know,

and like at the end of the day, like, and I say this to so many parents. Like, like, there's something to say about instinct, you know, and just like that primal, like you know your kid better than anyone else. And I just think in this day and age with like podcasts and lectures and we just have so much more access to research to information, which is wonderful. but I think that parents are just drowning in it and they're like listening to all these different podcasts and reading all these books

and trying to figure out what's the best school and they're hiring. I mean, you can hire a consultant for like $40,000 to just tell you what school you should go to. And they can't even guarantee that your kid's going to get in. Yeah, and like I just think like there's something to say about you walk into a school and like you're going to be like this is the right place for my kid or like this is not.

Like you know what's right and I think it just comes down to like quieting that noise and like being grounded yourself and this journey is just going to be certified. New York City is a wild fucking place. I mean it's just wild. The things that I'm grateful. I love New York. I really do. I have so I'm coming off the marathon and there's so many reasons why I love this place. And then there are just things that unless you live here and are embedded in kind of what goes on here, you'll never understand it. Right. $40,000 to hire someone to tell you where to have your child apply to go to elementary school or like high school? Right. Well, I think it really ties into this whole other piece about like, you know,

when you when you meet families or when we come across like this high wealth kind of population, so much of life becomes outsourced, right? Whether it's like making decisions, you know, teaching your kid how to how to bike ride, teaching your kid fractions, like whatever all these things are that like we all just used to do. I just feel like sometimes it's, it's just best to have less, you know, and to just sit there and say, we got this, like, we can do this. Not to say, like, we can't all ask for help, but too much is overwhelming. It's a lot.

Okay, so whatever, you go, you're seven, you go to high school, you go to the prep school, Trinity, you have this New York City classic kind of like high school experience. You go to Pepperdine? I went to the Claremont Colleges for college, which is near. I mean, it's in, it's like east of L.A. Okay. But that was like my dad's thing. He was like, you know, if you're going to go to college, like, there's got to be no Greek life.

You're getting off the East Coast. And it's like that or rehab. I mean, it was like New York City is a wild place. Like you're going to like nightclubs at like 15. Yeah. I mean, if you're attracted to that world, it will pull you in. And so he was like, we've got to get out of here. And it was much slower-paced.

I loved your dad, by the way. Your parents, by the way, are the best. Yeah, yeah. My parents are, like, kind of hippies, so. Yeah. So they sent you to L.A., and your college experience was fine, or you were partying, or you were doing well in school? Or what was, like, how, what did that be like?

Yeah, I mean, listen, it took a little while to find myself. Like, I definitely was a little bit wild, but it slowed me down. I mean, I think it was just too fast on the East Coast, and I had some good friends and made some good relationships and you know but it took a while you know i i would say it takes till like your mid 20s to kind of really see clearly yeah i mean for me it took my mid 30s well i'm still learning shit now you know girls are ahead yeah of course always no i mean women are this my mom i like whenever i need an answer i go to my mom still to this day so it's like that that that that shows you like that shows you where we go my my boys do the same yeah well

So you go, okay, and then you go to Pepperdine? So I came back to New York for like a minute, and I worked at the NYU Child Study Center, and they're like Neuropsych department doing testing for kids. I thought I wanted to do neuropsychology, which was like so depressing. I was not into it. Yeah.

And then I worked at Columbia, and I was just kept getting caught back into this like New York City scene and world, and I was like, I got to get back out west. Good for you. And so I just like found this program Pepperdine. I was like couples and families, which I just thought was so much more interesting than regular psychology. And it was the best.

It was just the best program. And it was like hardcore couples work, family work. I worked at the VA with veterans and addiction. And I just, I was so happy. I mean, it was just such a good fit. That's so, stood out on your resume. And then you came back to New York. And then I had my eye on Hazel then.

Which is like your classic old school. nonprofit, kind of 12, I mean, they've made, they've changed over the years, but this was Hazelden, Betty Ford, this is an old school. Did you know you wanted to work? You wanted to work in substance abuse? Yes, I was very clear on that, yeah. Because I got a taste of it at the VA, and I was like, oh, this is me. I mean, it just hit home, right?

Like, it was like, I struggled with myself. I grew up in New York. It was like all around me, and I was like, I get this. I really do. And I just felt like I could really connect. And I love the family piece. So when I worked at Hazelden, I ran their family program, I did their intakes. And, yeah, it was great.

Yeah, you've kind of done it all. It was a good team. You've kind of done it all. So you leave Hazelan, you come work with me for a couple years, and then you decide to kind of go out and start a private practice, which was a great move. and something that I think anyone that knew you

knew that you would do that. What has that journey been like? I always say for a therapist a lot of people listen and they'll ask questions and say I want to get involved in this work. I want to become a therapist. What suggestions can you make? And then after you answer that question,

I want to get into the nitty gritty. Yeah. What we're seeing. So, let me, so what do you ask? The kind of like, how, why did I, no i mean like you went into private practice you bet on yourself right and i think that's the dream of look what what i see reina with a lot of therapists

i'm allowed to say i think there's a lot more women that go to school to become therapist right and then and then you you have chosen you've done a really good job of staying in the work i mean you've had multiple children and returned to the work which tells me you're super passionate about this not everyone stays in this like you're staying in this like you're staying in it. Yeah, I mean, I think, I don't think I even knew if I was going to like it, right? I mean, I think basically what happened was I saw someone put a posting of like some office. It was a guy in the field where I really looked up to Jason Rudolph. And I visited this office. It was like on Park Avenue and I was like, I just stood in this

office and I was like, I got to take this office. Like, I didn't have any clients. And I called up my friend Marissa and I was like, you want to go in on this office with me. And we went on the office and I sat in this empty office. And I sat in this empty office. office and I made a list of like I don't even know like 200 people and I just like booked it I was in Brooklyn Queens I was meeting with rabbis and doctors and orthodontists and I was like giving out my car I mean I I like I like to hustle so I was like I just like hitting the ground and and I love that sweet I mean I had Jason Rudolph I had Ted Steen I mean just like really smart people people who like became my mentors um and then like all of a sudden like the phone started ringing you know and it was like And I really loved it. I was like, this is really good stuff.

And at the time, I didn't have kids. And I was dating someone who, my now husband, who works a ton, I mean, worked a ton then. So I could just like, I was in my office all the time. I mean, at all hours. And I just kind of got passionate. Did you feel like, so he's an attorney, right? And he still works very hard. Did you feel like, were you competitive in the relationship?

Like your work ethic had to match his. I mean, it definitely, like, pushed me. Yeah. I felt like I definitely attribute him in some ways to a lot of my success because he encouraged me to take the office. I mean, he was in my year the whole time. And I mean, it's nice to be with someone who's hardworking and ambitious because it kind of brings that out of you as well. I think if I was with someone who wasn't working as hard, I probably wouldn't have been as driven. Right.

And so that's one of the things you talked about before you can't, or before we started rolling the tapes today is this idea that. that, how did you say it, in households today, especially in New York City, what you're seeing is a lot of couples coming into you and there's some confusion around gender responsibility or what do you, how do you frame that? Like the man and the woman are not being defined how they historically have been defined. Yeah, I mean, listen, statistically speaking, they say that sometimes couples that have more traditional gender roles, like, do better. I mean, in modern marriage and modern relationships,

I'm a feminist it's a great thing that women can work and be mothers and cook and do all the things but like now it's like it's just so confusing right it's like everyone's supposed to do everything and I think what I've seen first of all I think women can't win no matter what whether they're going to work out they should be with their kids if they're with their kids they should be working if they're working why not why aren't they not with their kids I mean it's like you literally can't win and there's so much judgment but I've also really seen like men really struggle I mean because the expectation has changed I mean it used to be like you could leave go to work grab a drink come home you know veg out I want to say I want to get to the men thing because we just acquired this company that focus on men's mental wellness and like that's a huge part of my story and just being able to be vulnerable but on the thing you just said about like there's no winning for a woman in this world. I'm very fascinated by that because, and maybe this is just my experience, or maybe I'm

on social media too much, but what I'm seeing is women are not necessarily lifting other women up. Right. Like there's just crazy dynamic of you, a therapist, sitting here saying to me, like, hey, a woman going to the gym should be with their kids. A woman with their kids, she'd be working out at the gym. A woman that's working should be at home cooking. Like, right?

Yeah. But then you'll, like, you'll see the, I mean, it's crazy. So what's that? Is that just? I mean, I think it's just, it's like a projection of, right? Like every judgment comes from, like, yourself. And I think women are not feeling good about what they're doing. And like every woman, I had two women this morning in a couple.

And like both women were hysterically crying to me. And they both are parents of multiple kids. And they're like, where am I supposed to be? Am I supposed to be working? Am I supposed to be at the soccer match? Am I supposed to be at the soccer match? or should I be at that meeting that I'm missing? I didn't get that promotion because I'm with, you know,

it's like I think it's their own inner struggle that just gets projected. And I, you know, I blame society on some level for like just putting out such like unrealistic standard for what is supposed to be achieved and it's never good enough. And so it pains me to see. And I think, you know, women just want to do, be such, you know, they want to be good moms. and I say, you know, it comes down to your own inner dialogue, right? It's like, you can only be as good of a parent as you are to yourself. And so finding a way to, like, know that, like, you're doing the best you can.

You can only be as good a parent as you already yourself. I mean, that applies to a lot of areas of life, I feel like, for me. I mean, I can only be as good, I mean, I share, like, I just went down to onsite and did a ton of, like, self-discovery and self-reflection. And, you know, that experience was wild because I just, I, I, I, I, realize I was not being I was actually talking to one of our friends before going Carrie Wilkins you know well and she was telling me all the shit that I didn't want to hear which is like I'm not kind to myself I'm not tender I like forget about it and like stop it

with that talk you know like in my head and I get down there and that's a lot of what I discovered is like I'm just not being kind to myself in a way that's productive to the way that I live yeah yeah no there's like a real attachment to like that self-loader thing I think and I think people don't realize how much they're just like they've just been in that pattern for so long and it's like you believe that that's helping you you know you feel like okay if I beat myself up I'm going to succeed like that's the that's the way to succeed and the reality is like if you said to a kid when they woke up in the morning like you know you're a piece of shit you better get going otherwise you're going to be a failure like they would not do well so what do you

those two clients that were in your office obviously I don't want any specifics but how do you navigate that are you just trying to get them to a place where they feel confident and comfortable to make hard decisions or have hard conversations or sit their husbands down and say like hey well I think first I like go back in time a little bit right like I really want them to have an understanding of like when did this start for them and like what were the models that they grew up with in their family you know who who is their mom who is their dad like where are they getting these messages from and then I think it's really trying to understand like how can they shift that dialogue internally what are moments that they do feel good you know and like

how do we expand on it and I mean I'm such a like big couple therapy pusher like I'll even get any client in mind to bring their their spouse in or their partner in because I just feel like when people feel seen appreciated and understood like it's such a game changer and I think so much of the time like we go through life and we don't feel seen understood or appreciated and we are people actually do feel that way about us but like it's just not said right and I feel like that's in in the many environments I've been in my life whether it's an athletic team whether it's a business, whether it's, you know, sitting here with you. Like, whatever it is, it's always about being seen.

Yeah. And the best coaches in the world have this ability to make an athlete who maybe isn't getting enough playing time in that person's eyes feel seen. Right. And a part of that team, right? Like a good business leader, a good business owner makes their employees feel seen, but despite the fact that that employee might want a raise or a bonus or a new title and that goes back to like child like I just wanted a hug growing up you know like

right right no I think I think it's it's so big and I think couples don't realize how much like I mean it's so interesting there's a study that says like you know parents are so focused on their kids and like I want to hug my kid when they get home and I want to focus on my kid and it's like there's a study that says like when a kid sees their parents hug like it lowers their cortisol you know and so parents are so focused on the kid and I'm like what about each other right like if the two of you model that affection and that connection the temperature just goes down like it's so stabilizing but it's hard right because like you know you've obviously been in other relationships outside of the one with your husband and there's always that period

of what people refer to as like the honeymoon yeah and in my in my mind I'm always like well the honeymoon can last forever if both people are committed to that I don't think so well okay fine, I'm wrong. I mean, I don't know. I think it gets hard, right? But that's my question. Like, how do you do that? How do you make a relationship of three, five, ten,

15, 20 years last and make each other feel like the most important person in the world? I mean, that's, is that why the divorce numbers are what they are? I mean, I don't know. Although they are going down. Are they? Yeah. That's because you're doing this work, right? Great job.

I mean, I think you have to have the long game, right? Like, you've got to see the long game. Like, it's distress tolerance one-on-one, right? I mean, it's like every time we feel distress, we all want out, right? And I just think back in the day, like couples therapists, like in the 80s in particular, especially when feminism was on the rise, they would be like, all right, like, just go find yourself, just go split up, you know? And it's like, it was really bad for couples.

And now, I mean, it's really about like seasons of life and chapters like, hey, in there like this might not be the chapter like we all know statistically speaking when couples have little kids the marital satisfaction goes down and then sadly when the kids get older and grow up it goes up again right so can you hang in there for that part right can you like get through and know that like you might not be as affectionate for a minute but that it can come down so i'm crazy to think that like while raising kids that marital satisfaction can't remain if you're really doing the work like I don't know that's so that sounds so sad to me but I think with pain like I think Lolo's come high house

We got Jay over here Jay the father In the room our producer is laughing at me because why Jay No exactly him Because it's hard It's hard and I think I think it's like you gotta have you gotta be okay with that Like you gotta be okay with like And know that like when things go down

They come back up right like we don't really want life to be That's why I tell all my clients You gotta watch like Inside Out Have you seen that movie? oh it's so good like anyways it's a movie about how like all your feelings are important right like having hard moments and being sad is critical because otherwise how are you going to wake up at like 70 and be like proud you know it's because like you've got through that okay and then my next question is I go to the physical all right you have kids assuming that means less time

for each other less sex and that's where you know I've seen seen in my life like many relationships all over the place kind of blow up because there becomes this desire to go find that to go fill that void in the relationship outside of the relationship and some couples come back from it some people don't like how much of that physical connection are couples coming to you and wanting to either work through or reignite yeah I think it's hard and I think like the hard piece is that people just don't want to touch it, right? It's like such a hot topic and there's so much anxiety about it and vulnerability. Adults are hilarious. Right. But it's, like, we'll get shit-faced and act like

clowns, but then like when it's time to have like a hard conversation about sex and something that's, oh my God, we're going to talk about sex. Yeah. And it's hard. And there's, people are just, and so I think what I work on is just really talking to people about the fact that like sex is, it's an umbrella word, right? Like, I think people think of sex like so much in life is it's like so black or white, right? There's so much within sex. Like, sex is about connection, it's about intimacy, it's about pleasure, it's about, like, turning off, you know?

I mean, what we know is you cannot simultaneously have pleasure and be anxious. Like, in order to have pleasure and to have fun, you need to find a way to relax. And so, like, even if it's just like, okay, this is just a time every week that you're going to find a way to, like, turn off. you know and maybe it will happen maybe it won't but it's like it's just about being intentional and I think couples just they don't want to do the work they put it off and it just gets harder the more you do that so do you say to couples like once a week is that kind of your number is that like you try to try to get it done once a week here like actually like it's it's a little bit the opposite that you say to a couple like you're not supposed to have sex like I challenge

you to not have sex this week but you have to spend time together and you have to be hang out and you have to be intimate because you kind of want to take the whole sex thing off the table because I think it feels like pressure and if it leads that it leads to that but the idea is to be more intimate and physical in other ways I just don't I might just have a really bleak outlook on this stuff but I don't I mean I guess that's what I mean maybe maybe that's why I'm delusional right like like this honeymoon can carry on and like and that it can remain good and that it can remain and maybe I'm just like a hopeless romantic or I'm just like a believer but I think it's so complex right I mean I think when you have kids like it's so different like your love for that person

grows in so many different ways you know because you see that partner like and how they are with that child like during a hard moment and you're just like you can be blown away and you're like wow like so maybe I'm not having like some romantic getaway but that was powerful and now I'm going to work like having seen that moment and have a different kind of love that like makes that love even more just rich do you have couples coming to you that are exploring open relationships and what is your thought on that like i i feel like that's something that's happening a lot more here in new york and again new york is kind of we talked about it with the public schools or the private school thing new york is this bizarre place and it's very trendy and so you'll see an article written about couples that

are now, you know, going to sex parties and they're having this new, you know, re-invigorated sex life because they're, you know, finding multiple partners. And like, what is your, what is the therapist view on that? I mean, no judgment, right? Like, I think, I think people have to let loose and I think people have to, like, try new things. And, like, I don't think, like, I said, like, I don't think it's so black or white. Like, I think exploration, there's a time and a place for it. Like, I think when you have little kids and, like, it's just, like, you're trying to create stability. It's a little harder, but as people get older, I haven't seen as much success with it as I wish, you know? I don't always feel like it plays out the way people

want it to. The open relationship thing? Yeah. Like I just don't, I think it ends up. There's got to be jealousy, right? Yeah, just, I think it gets kind of haywire and it, I think it, a lot of it is like it's a fantasy, you know, and like, I'd rather people talk about their fantasies and like share those fantasies and you know I think a lot of times what people want can be right in front of them you know I think that it's about exploring different avenues with who you are already with before you try and like go outside of that yeah I feel like one of the biggest things I'm learning in like continued therapy and continuing to work with someone who's guiding me right to this information to this knowledge which I believe that's what therapy is right like I'm

just being guided to answers that I didn't even know existed. Yeah. Is, you know, this idea that a lot of this comes back to having hard conversations. Yeah. Like just being able to communicate like, hey, this is not working for me right now. Yeah. Or this is what I am feeling. Or, you know, whatever it is you're ashamed of.

Right. And putting that on the table. So as a couple or as a unit or as whatever that relationship, whether it's in business, I don't give a shit where it is, that there's some dialogue around. Well, right. I think people are so afraid of being vulnerable, you know, and I think there's just like a desire to, like, even to your partner to present like it's all good. And I think people are suffering. I mean, that's what leads to addiction.

Ultimately, it's like suffering alone. So having those conversations are huge. And saying to your partner, like, I just can't, I can't do this anymore. You know, I need help. Yeah. So I'm so fascinated by it all, and you're such a wonderful conversation, an example, because you have three children, you live in New York City, you have a high-achieving husband, you have really built this beautiful life and had been probably forced to practice what you preach

in some way. And struggle to do it, right? I mean, I think that's why the work is just so, I am so passionate about it because I get how hard it is and I'm living it. And so I feel like to be able to normalize and validate that for people, Because in the end of the day, like, it is so powerful to just, like, know that you're not alone in it, you know, and, like, know that everyone else is feeling the same way. And, I mean, in some ways, I benefit from my own work, right?

Because I get to walk away and be like, well, it's good to know, like, everyone else is struggling, you know. Yeah, you're not alone. Yeah, and that, like. Beautiful. And it could be worse. Right. And it reminds you of that. I want to get to, like, what you're seeing.

But I want to go back and touch just on the, I'm trying to not forget shit that we talked about that I wanted to touch on. So the men, right? We talked about the women and some of the struggles there. Guys historically suck. We suck at asking for help. We suck at being vulnerable. We have very, very concrete things baked into our existence that we think we need to be or ideals, right? about what a man should be.

And so you touched on it a little bit. I would imagine, is it fair to say most, like your first interaction is typically with the wife or the woman, and then they bring in kind of like resistant partner. A lot of the case, yeah. Yeah, a lot of the time. And how do you get those guys to understand the value?

Because look, I mean, I talk about therapy all the time. Right. Well, I think. I would tell you that my high school text chain, like those guys, 15. of us, maybe one or two of them are in therapy? I mean, it's hard. And I think, I mean, this is where the craft, I think, comes in so much.

I mean, you really have to notice who's in the room who doesn't want to be there and make them feel good about being there, you know, and help them notice. I mean, couple therapy doesn't have to be all negative. I mean, it could be about looking at what's already working and helping people feel good about themselves and what they're already doing. So I think building people up and making sure there's a certain level of, like, like strength and sense of like self-worth before you kind of look at what's not going well is so important.

But I think, yeah, I think the expectations for men are really hard, right? Like I feel for them. Like I think it used to just be okay, you're supposed to go to work and earn an income. But now it's like go to work earn an income. And then if you have children, there's an expectation to like be at all the games, be it all the applying for private school, be it all the things, you know, and then there's an expectation from women to, like, connect and, like, have that emotional connection, and then you've got to, like, be exercising, and there's the physical piece, and I just think, like, the list

has grown, and I think that men are just, I mean, I work with a lot of couples where the men say, like, I don't feel like I can win, you know, and they say to their wives, like, I just don't feel like you're ever happy with me. And the male says that to the female. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, I actually get that. Yeah.

Right. Because a lot of times, like, we, as a male, like, I will work really hard in silence, but sometimes it's with expectation. Right. And sometimes I want, whether or not it's a romantic partner, but the people in my life to validate that, like, I am working hard and doing my best and, like, all those emotions that I want to feel when they don't come

that causes me to get resentful, truthfully. Totally, totally. And I think it's hard because I think women set very high standards for themselves that's based on society. But then a lot of times

they project that onto their husbands and they're very critical. It's like, oh, you're going to make breakfast this morning? I'm like, you didn't do it right, you know? Or, oh, you booked that restaurant. well that's not a good restaurant you know it's like so brutal so like you know what happens they stop they stop doing it and then the wives are like well you don't do anything right you know it's like well how do you expect them to do anything if everything they do is wrong you know so it's like

really working with couples to like notice like if you want your partner to help out like there's got to be more positive like i call i talk about like money in the bank you know which is like an old gotman thing like you got to put the money in the bank we got to like have that good moment and make that partner feel good otherwise they're not going to keep doing it and kind of surrender to the fact that like it's not going to be perfect you can't control it um right but i think i think for men it's like really being able to acknowledge like that they're they don't feel like they can hit all the benchmarks and that you know if women want them to be helping at home they've got to be like building them up a little bit more yeah it seems like a lot of work but it is right i mean i guess

it is right like love is hard and and relationships are hard and i can't i mean look i again i can't speak to having kids so that's a whole other well this is your kid what really yeah yeah well yeah i mean like i joke that i have a ton of kids you know but you do though you and you mentor a lot of people and you've got a lot. I mean, that's not that different. No, it's, and look, all the shit we're talking about, I think as a society, we put a lot of pressure on the divorce rate. Yeah.

But for me, like, I'm into this thing. Like, it's almost like the relationship rate. Like, and, like, all these relationships that we have and in our lives, and, you know, you've experienced it, right? And we were talking about it. It's like friends come and go. Yes. Friends will leave your orbit for a period of time.

mistakes will be made and then sometimes they will come back and apologize and friendship's really hard and i think friendship is particularly hard for like you know for a lot of new yorkers that are working they're trying to prioritize their relationship right it's like friendship takes a lot of time and i think that people lose friends and then you know it's like having having faith that like a good friend you can have seasons where you're going to be close and not be close and yeah i always think about like I feel like there's this bullshit narrative out there with with men and guys in their friend groups right when one of the guys meets a new girl and then they start spending a lot of time with that girl and then all of a sudden to the friend group that girl becomes

the problem right when really it's on that dude right like it's on him to maintain his relationships with his guy friends and have this beautiful new romantic relationship or whatever it is but not lose sight of the people that you know he just spent the last however many years of his life like going out with or right and so I feel like friend groups are very amongst men are very quick to villainize the woman yeah yeah but in reality I think a lot of times the guy is not being honest right and he'll and then I've seen it where that guy goes out into the friend group like oh my wife dude like she's just not let me do this or there'll be this crazy behavior where they're like coming to a trip late and then like leaving early because their wife's making them

But for me, a lot of times, I'm like, that's not the truth, man. Like, you're doing this because you're feeling some level of guilt or something inside of you where you're not, like, your communication is not healthy at home with your wife or with your partner. Yeah. That's forcing you to behave like this and it's really not on her at all. But it's hard. Like, I think a lot of men tell me, like, I feel tapped out. You know, it's like, I don't know. I don't have the energy to put into my friends and then and then they leave me out or like they're not.

including me and it's I don't know it's another layer to it right and it's it's like do you have the space to put that time in and if you don't like you don't always get the rewards back are you still motivated like with three kids and hard work like are you so motivated to go out and see friends or you kind of staying yeah definitely I mean I think for I need it right like I think I think it's like critical like I just some people I think they can survive on their own but it energizes me and like it's just so important but you'll leave your kids with a babysit? or that's mom. Yeah, yeah, with the babysitter

or with my husband if he gets home. But I think it's just so good to, like, get out of the house and, like, do that. I mean, you have to, like, you've got to live a little. Otherwise, you feel like you're, I don't know, your whole life is on pause. Yeah. But commute, I mean, I think in particular,

like, despite the fact there's eight million people in New York City, like, people feel really lonely. Like, people do not feel, and that's why it's so interesting, like when I worked at Serenity with you and you guys had this whole AA thing. And you've got, you know, all the non-recovery people were like, what is this thing? Like, we don't have this. Like, do we get this?

You know what I mean? Like, it was like this whole like vibrant community that I think for like someone in their 20s, it's not in recovery. Hard to find. And it's lonely, you know? So. That's what I mean, that's what I'm probably like with release, you know, like if you came to our after party after the marathon, which was Sunday, this past Sunday at. PhD at Dream, like at the rooftop, if you walked into that room, you would have never known that half of that room was sober. Right.

And that's the fucking shit that I am so amped on because it's we need to show sober people that they are welcome in an environment where there's alcohol being served. And we have to also show people that are drinking that it's okay to welcome sober people there and they can make their own decisions about whether or not they're going to drink. You don't need to kind of be like, oh my God, can I get you a club soda? Like I'll go to the bar and get a drink or I'll just tell you what I want because I'm very confident in my environment and sobriety. So like that's, it's great though. I mean, and that you've cultivated. I mean, it's amazing that you've cultivated this whole community and people are so excited. I mean, it's a lifestyle that people feel really pumped up about.

And I wish everyone, you know, I wish I could direct every 20-something in that direction. Well, there's, look, the 20-something New Yorker who. you know, is just learning that they have a substance use disorder or an addiction or whatever you're telling them or informing them is probably not amped to go, you know, to a run or to some event

that feels super cheesy to them. Right. That's why you've got to kind of trick people to getting them there. Yeah. All you got to do is get them in the door. And then they're, I mean, it's wild. I've had so many 20-somethings

and they are, I mean, it's like they get hooked on it. Yeah. Right? They walk in the door and like, this is, this is the best, you know? and there's something to say about community. I think people even just, yeah, in New York City, like even raising kids, it's like people don't realize. Like, you can't, you just can't do it alone.

Like, you need to have people around you to do it. Yeah. So I know you're super passionate about family systems. I know that you love this work and you're not going anywhere. What are you seeing? Like, what do you want some of the listeners to hear? how like what what's going on in this in this crazy like as a therapist you have people coming to you and dumping all day every day like what are you what is the world yeah telling you so I really I mean I just I'm so happy that like awareness around mental health has changed you know and the stigma is going down and I hope that continues I mean there's there's just so much to say about early intervention and you could talk about that from every facet but like in particular with couple therapy. I think people come in, historically, have walked in the door way too late, right?

Like, seven years in, like, they're already, they're already done. Yeah. You know, there's something to say about going to couple therapy before you get married. Or, like, when you're just dating, not even because you're going to marry that person, but because you need to learn how to be in a relationship, and it's helpful to do couple therapy. Right. Or, like... Of course, right.

I mean, like, what the hell are we talking about here? Like, this whole podcast, this whole thing, this whole work that we're doing. we do is about that like why the fuck are we so scared to just be honest especially with the people we love right i mean listen i made my now husband go to couples therapy when we were just like dating like like a few months in he's like what is this and i'm like this is what i do like i'm interested in this and like i've made him do like every kind of couple's therapy with me like because it's just i've got to live it in order to do it and i don't know it's just there's something so important about having that safe space and and finding a moment to be intentional and for kids too like i have parents

that'll say like if they're 12 year old will go a few times and then be like doesn't want to do it i'm like the research says it's like all about once they know that resource is there right like it can change their whole path because they know what to do now when they're struggling they know what the options are um so i just really feel like getting involved earlier rather than like crisis management is going to be hopefully the way of the future. Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like for therapists,

and you probably see this, it's really hard because it's one thing to get them there. And then it's another, how many times we hear someone that goes to therapy one or two times and say, I'm not getting anything out of it? It's like, what are you putting into it? What are you giving?

What are you providing? Are you being honest about where you're at? Are you letting your guard down? Are you deflating some of your ego to allow this work to start to happen? And that's where, for me, I think there's some frustration because some people will get to that one or two sessions and then they'll say I didn't like the therapist and they'll cry and then they're

then they're gone. Then they're never gone back. I never went back. I mean, I always said this. I mean, I'll probably do the opposite of what other people do. Other people are like, oh, do individual therapy and then you should do like couples or work with your mom or work with your something. Like I actually believe like it should always start with like I think relational work is just where it's at. And I like I work with some people that struggle when they come in individually. They get nervous or they just don't know what to talk about. So I have them bring their partner in. I'm like, let's just, let's work on the relationship, right?

And through the relationship, they learn the language to understand themselves, right? Like, I think as humans, we are relational beings and we heal in connection to others. And sometimes one-on-one therapy, it just doesn't always work. And like, when someone was to send their 15-year-old to us, I'm like, you know what, why don't we have mom and daughter come in or why don't we have the brother and the sister come in like because just like there's more possibility for change when people are together yeah yeah I mean that's like who was it Pavlov or one of these folks it's like one-on-one it's like community right like we we have to have other people to do things with in order to really inspire change which you know

I'm a huge advocate for. And you see this because you work with a lot of psychs and you work with a lot of docs and like the whole role that kind of like medication plays. And I know that you're, you know, you're big into kind of some of the holistic stuff, right? Like, okay, yeah, medications can be a part of this treatment plan, but are you getting fresh air? Are you drinking? Like, one of the first things I always say to people is like, are you drinking water? Totally. Are you eating food?

Are you, like, yeah. I've been sharing about this thing at onsite. Like, one of the things I realized, like, I wasn't eating three meals a day. Yeah. Being forced to go to a cafeteria or like it was more, the food was awesome, but being forced to go to this like eating hall, chow hall three times a day and actually eat food was pivotal. I was like, oh my God. Right, right. Well, I always say to people, it's like, imagine you wake up every day with like your six-year-old self, you know, like, and you want that six-year-old to like have a great day.

Like, are you going to not give that kid breakfast? Like, are you not going to like skip lunch? Are you going to have a candy bar at like three o'clock? Like you would never do that, right? you would take care of that kid you would be that kid's cheerleader so like finding a way to tap into that inner six-year-old and take care of that six-year-old all day is going to like be so critical and so it goes back to like yeah like sometimes i have a mom talking to me and she's shaking you know she's drinking her third coffee and like did have you eaten you know because like i need you to

eat breakfast before you come here because like i can't we can't even go to that prefrontal part of your brain if like your base levels aren't met yeah and the inner child self's wild the six years like because I wanted to so badly for years you know call it BS yeah right but it's not no I mean like it's everything right kids we're all kids and that all that stuff that happened we were kids whether you were bullied on the playground or whether your mom was critical or your dad was absent or whatever i mean it's all part of you every day yeah so for you now reyna what is you have how many therapists in the practice i have four yeah four therapists we have a play therapist which is cool because we get to like work with the kids um tell about that yeah it's just

something i've been passionate about i work with so many families and there was like wanting you know the kid is struggling some kind of way and i just think play is like the lay is like the language of children and so kids don't do therapy so well but so we've got like sand tray and we have all of these other ways that they can communicate like we have a family right now and there's a very sick sibling a ton of terminal type of thing illness and you know the we have the sibling and the siblings able to like process a lot of it like through play and you can use play to kind of help that kid identify other coping strategies and it's really healing if the parent is in the room because then you're doing like relational work with the play therapy um so we do that and couples work and i have someone

who works primarily with like men and then someone who works another person who works with couples because we see a lot of that um and someone actually who works with more kind of like non-binary kind of LGBTQT work because that's just become such a big thing yeah and are you so you're and you're still carrying a caseload yeah yeah big one Yeah. And you're not, I mean, you're good. I mean, yeah, I think it's all about the balance, right? Like there's some days where you can overshoot the mark and you're like, oh, maybe

did a little too much. But I think in the end of the day, like if you can have a little time with yourself, a little time with your family, a little time doing the work you love, like, it's a good day. Yeah. I mean, there's been so much, I mean, I could talk to you forever. And I'm just so grateful to be here with you. and kind of hopefully lifting up some of your work if you're in New York.

Do you have a question, Jay? You don't think you had a question. Do you want to ask a question about your marriage? Okay. Got it. We got Renan's first referral from the show here. Jay is going to go in with his wife. Oh, yeah?

Good. I think it's good. Then you got married and you stopped going to public. But this is interesting, our producer, I know people complain that they can't hear him. He just said that they went to couple therapy before getting married, but what happened after you got married? Well, he said he didn't have a good experience.

No couple therapy since. Yeah, but I mean... No, but I have a lot of that history with therapy, and I love therapy. I just think it's not finding a right therapist. Oh, that's the killing. That's the one for me that kills. But the reality is a lot of people doing couple therapy, like the general... you know, social work degree, they don't do couples training.

You know, like, it's, I wish it was a bigger part of, like, the training courses. Because I do think it's a different beast. Like, your client is not two people. Your client is the relationship. So it's different. Yeah. I mean, I just think about the whole find the right therapist thing is a little bit of bullshit. Like, for me, you're going to therapy because you're finally acknowledging that there's something that you need to work on.

Right. Like, how about you, you take a little accountability? for the first time and lean in yes yeah yeah yeah yeah there's something to say about like manifesting what you want to happen by just bringing it and of course there's bad therapists or there's bad you know fitness trainers there's bad actors everywhere but and maybe I'm just biased because I work in behavioral health care and I love I love therapists I just feel like so much of that line is bullshit yeah I hear you it's like the guy that comes to me I mean, I don't like my sponsor.

Will you actually doing what he's asking you to do, or are you just saying you don't like him because he doesn't look like you and talk like you and you don't yearn for his social life? Right. Yeah. So anyway, Raina Zalanki, we're going to, how do people find you?

Website, yeah. Which is, please. Raina Zalanki.com. Raina Zalanki.com. And she assumes that people are just going to know how to spell that. So it's www. It's a good Jewish mouthful. R-E-I-N-A-N-A.

Z-E-L-O-N-K-Y.com. Raina Zolonki.com. You will not be disappointed. Call her if you're in New York or needing support, needing assistance. I would trust her with my own relationship. Well, thank you so much. I love talking to you and brings me back. So I'm going to do more of it.

You're the best, Raina. Thanks for common. And that's a wrap for today's episode. man, unpacked a lot. Thank you.