The Zac Clark Show - She Saved a Life at the Knicks Championship Parade | Simone Kelly on Addiction, Narcan & Ending Stigma

Episode Date: August 18, 2026

At the New York Knicks championship parade, a man became unresponsive high above a crowd of thousands. Phones came out. Simone Kelly ran toward him. Simone is a 24-year-old volunteer EMT and neuroscience student at Drew University who hopes to become a physician specializing in emergency psychiatry and addiction. At the parade, she climbed onto the structure, recognized the signs of a suspected opioid overdose, called for Narcan, administered it, and helped save his life. The moment quickly went viral. Simone joins Zac to tell the story behind the rescue and talk Narcan, overdose, harm reduction, addiction stigma, service, and why treating people who are struggling with dignity can save lives. More Information about NARCAN:  https://narcan.com/en/ Follow Simone Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/simmykelly/ Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Everyone's pointing at him saying, like, help, help, get him down. I had the opportunity to sit down with Simone Kelly, who narcan someone the day of the Nix World Championship Parade. I realize that still everyone is just taking a video, so I have to decide, am I going to hop down or not? When you are going to help someone, they part. She is an amazing human being full of knowledge, and she truly just wants to make the world a better place.

And then I look in his eyes, and I see very pinpoint pupils, which is a sign. I throw out everything else that I was potentially thinking might be going on. And now I'm like, oh, crap. Like, there is one thing I need up here, and it is the one thing I stood this morning with, in my hands, debating whether or not I should bring. I hope you will listen to this conversation and then think about the ways that you're impacting the world, because that is what this conversation did. for me. At one point, I'm holding three doses of Narcan in my hands. And we're going to get to the

opioid emergency, and that's obviously how we know of you and kind of hunted you down. I apologize if we were, we were just excited to talk to you. It's okay. I'm excited to be here. Nice. Cool, cool, cool, cool. But we were talking a little bit before the camera started rolling just about, like, outreach work and the stigma around that. And what do you, what do you think when people say, like why are you narcanning people you're just keeping these drug addicts alive? I mean, that's, take the deep breath. There have been so many comments on these videos out there and the ones that get me most, you know, infuriated, aren't the ones, you know, sexualizing me or any of that.

It's the ones that it's like, why are you? And they're using really derogatory language. Like they're just going to do it again. These people are just going to go and overdose. We're just spending money on these junkies that are just going to keep overdosing. And that's really hard. because that's not, you know, those are the people that are never going to carry it, or it's going to take a lot more for them to actually carry Narcan.

Or it's going to happen under their roof and then that's going to wake them up. Yeah. Unfortunately, yeah. And it's, I think it's the same thing we tell people with CPR is like, you should get certified because you're more likely to have to do CPR on a friend, a family member, a neighbor, someone you know than, you know, Joe Schmoe on the street. And it's the same thing with Narcan. Like you're more likely to, you know, do it to your child who's experimenting with, like, Adderall or something for the first time.

Or, you know, grandma who took too much of their pain meds or a child who is using in secret than anyone on the street. I think this was an anomaly what happened. Yeah. And just for the people listening, if you're not familiar with what Narcan is, it's an overdose reversal drug. So if someone is having an opioid overdose, you're an opioid overdose, you basically. Give them a shot of Narcan in their nostril. Spread up their nose. Just like a, I don't know, an aphrine.

Flonase, yeah, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. How did you know? So let's kind of like dig into the day a little bit. One, how did you know how to use Narcan? Oh, it is so user friendly. I think so it is an excuse if people are saying, oh, I don't know how to use it.

Like it's so complicated. Literally all you do is press the plunger and it comes out. And we have some here just so people can see, yeah. It is so easy. but also like I have spent time you know kind of dedicating myself to this work and so I've learned a lot about it I have you know on the ambulance I've had to do it a few times um so you're an EMT I'm an EMT yes and you're studying neuroscience neuroscience yes the future of behavioral health care is sitting right in front of me there we go yeah so you learned as an EMT I mean or you've been familiar with Narcan or yeah I've been familiar with it long before, but that was because I was personally invested in, you know, this population, this cause. However, in a basic CPR class, you were learned how to, you know, use Narcan 2. And then the same thing in EMT school. We were taught that as well. So I know it

because I taught myself beforehand, but it has been taught and taught and taught time and time again. And the younger, so we go out in college campuses a lot and there was a time five or seven years ago, say to the audience like, hey, do you guys know what Narcan is? And no one will put their hands up. And now I would say 80% of the student body is putting their hands up. And the other 20% we try to kind of get to and explain to them. Just because the drug market, if you will, it's scary right now. And we're finding opioids everywhere. Yeah. I think that's definitely contributing to why more people know about is because more and more high-profile people and just like regular people are needing to be Narcan.

I think a lot of like the current pop culture and rap culture is like, oh, yeah, I know Juice World. What do you mean he overdosed? And then you kind of go into stuff like that. You know, big names drawn attention to this, unfortunately. I'm amazed that it feels like weekly now where we're losing an athlete or a musician or someone. you know there's obviously a huge underbelly an undertone of mental health and you know just what folks are dealing with i mean someone like me a male in my 40s it's a very scary kind of time and

we're seeing a lot of people men my age kind of losing themselves yeah um and then there's also this underbelly of like how many of these death by suicides or you know have been fueled by a pretty serious substance abuse issue. Yeah. So it's scary. All right. So can you tell us the story? Can you tell us to wake up?

You go to the next parade. Yeah. So I actually had gotten home from Hong Kong the day before. So I am so jet-lacked at this point. Did you watch the games in Hong Kong? We did, yes. Wow. Yes.

We're on a bus. And no one cares. Like, everyone is very focused on their own thing. And my mom and I are like, the next just won. The next just won. And we started jumping on this little bus. people looking at us crazy. So I got home the day before the parade.

And I wanted to go, but I was also very aware that like, oh, I just got off like a, it was a 24-hour travel in total. Let's see how this goes. So I woke up at like 3 a.m. And I was like, oh, yeah, I am going. I have nothing else to do today. It is 3 a.m. So I have at least three hours before I need to be on a train. Let's figure out what we're going to wear.

So at 6.30, I get on the train. And about seven. Who's the crew? myself you're looking at her solo yeah amazing and this is not something simone three four years ago would have been able to do like i would have needed a sea of people to hide in to you know feel comfortable going into the masses but that's definitely something that i have seen change about myself recently is like i have the confidence to go anywhere in the world granted i'm spiritually fit yeah yeah i got you um so 730 i find myself at

The subway station. I forget what subway station it is. I am from New Jersey. So. We forgive you. I'm from Jersey as well. There we go. Okay.

So there's the sea of people and it's already 7 a.m. The mayor had said like, get here by 8 if you want any chance of getting into the parade. And it was 7.30 and we were already 7.7.30 and we were already getting shut out. So I make it, I'm still probably at least 300 feet from the actual parade. and people are starting to like set up shop where they are so like there's two sanitation trucks behind us and there's you know a few people that are sitting up there so I climb up there and that's my spot for the day like onto a truck or onto a on a sanitation truck yeah yeah so we're about 10 15 feet in the air looking over everyone so it's a great view um and as I said like I support New York

city. Like I love the vibe when we all come together and are excited about something. Pride has a similar vibe. Some of these like Puerto Rican parades, they have similar, you know, ambiances in the city. So I'm sitting up there talking to people. I can't see the parade, but it's okay. But at the same time, I am always kind of subconsciously on duty. Like if someone's struggling, I'm going to go and help them. So earlier that day, someone had passed out from dehydration. So I'd run to help her. And we saw, you know, a few hours later, we saw these three people climb on top of this accessible subway stop. Like I don't really know how to describe it. You have to see one.

And then you'll be like, oh, that makes sense. Got it. So they climb up there to watch it. And the whole crowd is like egging them on. They're like, yeah, good job. And this guy starts drinking. And everyone keeps like chug, chug, chug. So he's gone through about, you know, one or two boom boxes at this point.

Like he's drank a lot and that's all I saw him do. You know, I- The boombox is like the new, the kids are drinking these like- I think it's like a cardboard thing of wine, but it's equivalent to maybe a full wine, but I don't drink. So I don't know. Yeah, so when he went down probably an hour later, when I see him splayed out, I'm thinking, okay, he's probably just drunk.

He's probably just- On top of this, he's still on top of this thing. He's still on top because the police officer. officer was kind of, hey guys, get down. This is dangerous. I need you all to get down. And, you know, that makes sense in my mind. There's a hazard. He wants to minimize hazard. So two out of three of them can get down. And this one gentleman is not sturdy. He's wavering around and he's kind of, you could tell he was not going to be able to get down by himself. I don't think we realized as a crowd just how unsteady he was, because very

quickly he falls like down flat and is still just teetering and getting closer to the edge. This is all happening probably in the span of 10, 15, 20 seconds. And are you, are other people noticing this? Everyone sees it. Everyone's pointing at him saying like help, help get him down. And everyone's recording at the same time. Like I'm getting goosebumps just talking about it because it was a very visceral moment. I am also, there might have been a time in my life where I felt the need to, you know, be the hero of every story and stick my nose where it doesn't belong.

So I, you know, was still decently far away. And I was thinking, okay, someone, someone closer might be going up there. I get that, by the way. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely have wanted to stick my nose in every call that there has been on the ambulance.

and sometimes they need to recognize like as long as help is getting to them that's all I want for that person so after about 10 seconds I realize that still everyone is just taking a video so I have to decide am I going to hop down or not and I don't think it was ever a question in my mind because I pretty quickly just hop right off and run over and it is like I know the the crowds are infamous in the city. We've used the word infamous twice now. But when you are going to help someone, they part. And I was walking through and people were just getting out of my way so quickly. Yeah. It was awesome. Yeah. And my friends on the sanitate friends I met that day. How did they, how were you the chosen one? Like how did they know you were the one that was like on the way to

help because you're like, I got this? I think it was because I helped the woman earlier today, that day. And she didn't need much help at all. Like I just walked her off to the ambulance. But like, The people I was sitting with were like, oh, like, she knows what she's doing. So they're yelling at people while I'm walking. They're making fun a little bit. They're like, go get them, doctor, you know, not what I am. But yet. So they're helping spread the sea.

And so I get over to the base of this elevator structure. And, you know, the cop is still there saying like, hey, we don't need more people up there because, you know, that's just more, it just could go really poorly. And this guy, I come to find out Peter, he is the first one that's like, well, I have to go up there. Someone's going to, he's going to get hurt. And that's what we're kind of pleading with a cop of like, hey, you don't realize, like, this guy is going to fall and it will not end well if we don't get up there. And I think there's this like moment of humanity.

And he realizes like, I don't know if it's in the state. standard protocol, but like just get that guy down. That's what he tells us. Like bring him down and then, and then we're done. Can you, can I ask? Is it like why the cop wasn't going up? I am not a police officer. So I don't know what they were told or what they weren't told.

I also, you know, with everything going on around, you know, police and police work, like I don't want to take a stand on that because. No, of course. I was just genuinely curious if he gave any indication like that. I have to stay here because this is my job for the day. Maybe that's as simple as that. I mean, he was right under it, so I don't think he could see it. I think that is it.

And it was really just like the crowd next to this structure. I think he was just at, you know, the base as a guard. Like no more people up there. But again, I have no idea. So I crawl up there. And at this point, I think there's one person in front of me, this guy, Peter, my friend now, who had crawled up. and then I was right behind him.

I'm not the tallest person. So there were two other people following me that were able to, you know, kind of get through this. It was like a six foot gap. And they were able to jump over and get up quicker than I was. So, you know, you see me coming as like the third or fourth person. That's just because someone literally had to hoist me up so I could get up there. And at this point, like, thank God people have common sense. because at this point, like, they're trying to, like, kind of agitate him. Hey, buddy, wake up, wake up. And I get up there and they already tell me he has a pulse. I see that he's breathing. But they've done the very, very basic, but life, like critical, life saving skills. Like, okay, he has a pulse. Thank God. Because if I got up there and he didn't, that would have been a very different conversation we would have been having today. Yeah. Yeah. So I get up there and.

it's chaotic like are we talking 30 people 10 people like how many oh no there's probably sorry what do you mean the crowd or the people on top of the because I think there was only three people up there or how many people are on there was three four maybe five max but there was there one was not much room up there and everyone was doing something very specific even if they don't realize it like even if it wasn't a conscious thought they were really only the necessary people up there. And still, there are probably

2,000 people immediately below us, recording, shouting, throwing things that we might need. So, you know, someone throws up a water and I'm like, pour it on him, you know, instead of trying to make him drink it. Like, I hope this is just dehydration, you know, hyperthermia. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we're throwing that on him. And then someone throws up Narcan. Sorry, I think I'm jumping the gun a little bit because before then, I come in and do like a very basic assessment. You know, he's breathing. He has a pulse and you see me kind of, I'm jostling his legs and I give him a sternum rub. Yeah. Wake up. Like, as you know, very standard protocol for if someone's unresponsive.

Yep. And then I look in his eyes and I see very pinpoint pupils, which is a sign. Yeah, the sign. So no longer am I thinking, okay, maybe he just drank too much or. you know, is having a diabetic emergency. I figured that out, by the way, like 10 years into my opioid addiction that like my parents knew. Like that's like there was no drug test needed. It's just so if you have a question that people are using, look their eyeballs. Yes, very immediately you can give, you can get an answer.

Sorry to interrupt. No, it's okay. So that's where I was. Like I look in the eyeballs and seeing those small pupils like I throw out everything else that I was potentially thinking might be going on. I'm like, oh, crap. Like, there is one thing I need up here, and it is the one thing I stood this morning with in my hands debating whether or not I should bring. And I ended up not bringing the Narcan because the bag restrictions were so tight. Like I, you see my phone in my waistband in these, in these videos, because that's all I brought.

Also, I have brought it with me. I bring it with me 24-7, and I have never had to use it on the street. So of course it was the one day, didn't bring it. And I thought, you know, oh, today wouldn't be the day. And it was the day. So when in doubt, keep it on your person at all times because you might just find yourself. You don't want to be in a situation where. Yeah, because at that moment, like they don't need any, they need oxygen.

Yeah. Potentially CPR, but they need Narcan. Like they need naloxone. They need this drug that has. you know, been known to combat opiate emergencies. Do you know the science behind it, or can you explain that for the... Oh, Narcan is a partial opioid antagonist, and it targets the mu-opoeid receptors in the brain. These are the same receptors that have a, you know, a binding affinity for opiates, morphine, dope, you know, heroin, oxycodone.

Dilaudit. Yeah, there you go. Thank you. So these are the receptors that all these drugs will bind to. It's like a magnet, basically. They are great at relieving pain. They are really, we don't have many other drugs like that that can reduce pain in the same way. So that is a great thing, but on the same end of the skin. So that is a great thing, but also they have some real physiological changes that can happen through them.

They're addictive. No, I'm not saying this right. So basically when the drug sits in the receptor, it can relieve pain, yes, but it also does a lot of physiological changes to the body, including like a decreased respiratory drive, which is the most dangerous of the salt. Because if someone stops or starts breathing very slowly, eventually they're not getting enough oxygen. That's what we would call, you know, respiratory failure.

If that goes on long enough, then you're going to get cardiac or respiratory rest. If that goes on for long enough, you're going to get cardiac. arrest and then you have someone who is essentially dead unless you do something else which is start CPR you did a great job thank you and yeah so like that's why for the listeners like the blue lips obviously the slow breathing the gurgling like these are the things that we look for when we're in front of an opioid emergency i definitely didn't even get to what narcan does though um go for it no no yeah so drug sits in receptor it's pretty strong there narcan is even stronger and has a higher binding affinity or like magnetism to that receptor. And so when it enters the

bloodstream, when it enters the body, that receptor would much rather bind to Narcan than these drugs. So for a short while, you have Narcan who's bound to it. So, you know, it is satisfying that receptor in the same way, except you're not going to get high and you don't really feel as much pain relief, but you can breathe again. Like it doesn't have that decreased respiratory effect. however that is not you know long term you give it what five 10 15 minutes and then the drug is going to come back and bind again so if you do narcan someone try to get them to a medical facility because it is not a permanent solution now I'm done well that's why you hopefully have a couple doses on you and there's a lot of intricacies to all this but the long and short of it just to bring

it back to like, you know, the, the average guy walking down the street, you carry Narcan because it's very easy to use and an opioid overdose is actually very easy to identify in spot and there's no harm that can be done. If you give Narcan to someone that is not experiencing an open, there's, there's, there's, it can do no harm. Yeah. So, all right. One in doubt, you know, administer Narcan. Yeah. So. So. So. So. you notice the signs I'm like picturing things flying up at you like the water flying here's a comb

like I don't know like people are just like throwing shit up to you like it's New York right like they just want to be helpful and when do you so how long between you like noticing this is what it is and the Narcan kind of like flying up I'm almost picturing it like falling from the sky the second you're cloudy with a chance of meatballs it was pretty quick

like I noticed that's what's going on and I just kind of yell out to the crowd and someone throws it up really quickly. So cool. People keep throwing it up, I will say. Like after that, the police officer threw one up and like another guy threw something up. So at one point, I'm holding three doses of Narcan in my hands and people are the people in the ground are like, don't give him anymore. He doesn't need anymore. And I'm like, I'm not an idiot. I'm not going to give this guy 12 milligrams of naloxone within five minutes.

Like, that's not how I've been trained. So we give him one dose and thankfully he comes back. It takes a little bit. Like, I keep agitating him and it probably is 30 more seconds, but he does start to, like, jolt and make small movements and then sits up. At that point, he's, like, grabbing around me and tries to kiss me a few times, which, you know, a lot of people have asked me about, but I am not. I hold no, there's no bad blood between me and this man.

Like I just hope he finds help, really. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know, like, did he, he got down safely and he, like, into an ambulance or no? Yes. Yes. But that was probably the biggest headache of this whole thing, just because there was a lot more moving parts than when we were just up there.

He was stationary. We were all up there. And so if he kind of started to teeter, we could move him back on. moving him down though was you know if I was with my crew and I had all my moving devices on the ambulance like I would have a lot more confidence in everyone being able to play their part but up there it was people I have never met before I have no idea how strong they are I have no idea like what they're going to do so in the videos you can see me get very assertive like I need you to grab this and they start moving and I say stop like we are not doing this right now we need to think about it before we

just throw this guy off this structure so um you know the third ledge to the second ledge wasn't bad because it was literally a direct you know kind of like a stare um so we can move him down there but like i was saying the six foot gap was the issue because you know you've got people on one side which is me and the people I was with kind of handing him off and then there are the people people standing on the almost ground level needing to like receive him. And there's a great photo out there and it looks, it is very moving because you just see every, it is such a metaphor for the city because you see people handing him off. Another group of people are trying to catch him.

There's an FDNY paramedic there also involved. You see hands reaching up trying to like catch just in case. and it's just, it is so beautiful. And as soon as we were done and he was finally on ground level, I sighed the biggest sigh because, oh, thank God, nothing went wrong. Yeah.

That is like literally the best possible outcome of the situation. Yeah, I'm sitting here because, and what's coming up for me is this idea that you're clearly someone that wants to do good in the world, right? You're studying neuroscience. You're an EMT, like, Can you describe, not that I want you to ever have to Narcan anyone. I mean, right?

Like, that's the goal that we get to a place in this world where Narcan is obsolete. Like, we don't need it anymore. And I hope that we do. But can you explain kind of the feeling of bringing someone back to life? Is that, I'm assuming you've done it too in the ambulance before. So is it gratitude? Is it I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing? Does it feel like, is it affirming?

I guess that's kind of what's coming up for me. me. Gratitude for sure. As we know, like that's an action word and literally, you know, acting in the fullest sense of action, basically, you know, I am showing and, you know, really, gratitude is a verb and I am very much doing an action when I was up there and every time I've, you know, been involved with saving a life. I think also service. Like that is, every day when I wake up I just ask for the opportunity to be of service and help someone else on this world

and while this won't win viral and you know a lot of people are very focused on this moment I think there are a lot of other opportunities we are given in our life to you know help save a life even if it's just being kind to someone on the street I

probably about a I want to say a week after it happened but it was probably more like two days after the parade. I was riding on the ambulance and we, you know, we had a patient that we didn't really have a patient. We saw people on the street that were, you know, acting abnormal. And we come over to them and they said they had taken heroin, but they were not acting like they were taking, had taken heroin.

So they're talking to me and, you know, instead of just, hey, okay, bye, you don't need an ambulance, like I'm going to leave. You know, I sat with them like, hey, can I, can I, can I at least leave this with you, a thing of Narcan? And they were like, she looked me in the eye and she said, thank you for treating me like a human. Like, thank you for not just driving off and actually wanting to help. Like, thank you so much.

And arguably those moments are more moving for me because it's, you know, really getting to see another struggling soul except help in very minor ways, you know. Yeah, as much as we've talked a little bit about the science of this whole thing and I'm sure we could have a whole other conversation around substance abuse and mental health, what that moment tells me is that most humans, whether they're struggling or not, just want to be seen. Even though as kids, like when you look at like trauma, right,

like and people I talk to all the time, whether it's a patient in our program or someone that we're trying to help, they oftentimes go back to those early days. And it's not some big moment. And some people it is, but sometimes it's just like, yeah, my mom didn't pay enough attention to me. Yeah. Like my dad liked my brother more than me.

And that can stick with people for many, many years to the point where they end up on this street because they don't feel lovable. And you come along and you show them this grace and you show them this kindness and empathy. And you give them hope. And we know that. Like we know. And that's why as you launch into this career studying neuroscience and really behavioral health care, it's the one thing. where that human connection and community is just vital. And we saw that in the day at the parade too.

Like you're describing that picture and like people like kind of like coming together around because that's what we need to save one life. Yeah. It takes a village. Yeah. When did you just to talk about like the media that surrounded it? Because for me as just a guy who I, I root for these stories.

Like I care. 100%. You know, like, I am like, my entire feed on social media, I always joke like anyone can look. It's just like recovery stuff. It's just my whole life. Yeah. And so I obviously, naturally, I saw it.

And I think I texted Jay, who's our producer, I was like, I'd love to talk to her. Like, I'd love to like sit and chat with her because this is my favorite story. You know, like, I love this. Like coming out of the championship. And I just like, I'm curious. when did your friends start to see it or your, like, when did you know it was going to be a little bit more than you just being of service? Yeah.

I mean, when I was up there, like I was shaky. One, because I'm standing on top of this giant structure with so many people watching, but because almost every one of those people watching had a phone out also recording. So when I was up there, I think there was a thought in the back of my mind, like I might see this video again. This might resurface somewhere. but I didn't realize that it was going to resurface everywhere for like a day. That's all I could see. And that sounds very like egotistic. But like I just had to turn my phone off because I couldn't get consumed with seeing myself, oh, this hero.

Like I would get a big head about it. And I've been very mindful of not like staying true to my size, you know. Yeah. Yeah. in the spirit of service and wanting to help others what do you want people to know about Narcan or your experience that day that maybe are out there saying it's kind of like not for me what do you mean like carrying it with them yeah carrying it with them not understanding it uneducated I don't know like in theory like I put out this kind of cheesy really

I don't know, like a year ago where I had the fire extinguisher and I was like, oh yeah, every house has one of these, but do they have one of this, you know? And some people really identified with that and some people had some not so nice things to say. And like the chances of an overdose happening in your house are far greater than a fire. Yeah. What would you want the person to know about Narcan, harm reduction, overdose reversal that is, is not willing to carry it, not willing to accept it, stigmatizes it.

And that might just mean that they haven't been educated or they don't understand it, or they haven't been exposed to communities that may be struggle. But it's important for me that people understand that what happened that parade could happen to anyone, anytime, anywhere, really. I think today there are so many people you will encounter in your life and you have no idea what their story is.

so you could be talking to someone that you think so highly of, and you wouldn't even realize that, like, oh, this person is only alive today because someone had it on them, had Narcan on them when they really needed it. Because, you know, when, you know, in recovery, if someone can really go through the trials and tribulations of getting sober and entering recovery, like people live beautiful lives, and we wouldn't even realize that that was their past.

So, you know, while someone might be. quick to kind of write off the guy on the street nodding out. Like, I don't think they would be so quick if they realize that some of very powerful and admirable people out there have gone through similar struggles. Yeah. Yeah, I think where I want to end this, and thank you so much for your time and energy, I know you guys traveled in for this. So we're, like, really grateful that you're sharing this time and space with us on a

Wednesday? What's the night? Monday? Monday night? Oh, my God. Summer. It's like time is. crazy. But I think the thing, like the last thing that I would just love to hit on with you as someone,

a young person who's clearly got a soft spot for folks that are struggling with substance abuse and are looking to kind of dedicate your life to this work, which is so admirable. I've done it and I don't feel like I'm ever working. So like I say, I'm rooting for you. But there's this thing that happens that I've experienced in my 14 years doing this work, which is like where kind of like the 12-step community fights with the harm reduction community, which fights with like the treatment and smart, yeah, the smart recovery, which in the marijuana, like, they all want to like do this inner fighting. And it's just so hard for me to wrap my head around because in all of those cases, the identified patient is trying something

to change. Do you have any thoughts on that? if I sit here and judge how someone is trying to better their life, I think I'm at fault. You know, I have no, I have no, what is the saying? Ball in the game. I have no skin in the game. I have no skin in the game in that. Like, as long as someone's trying to get healthy. And at that point, if they're considering treatment options, like they recognize that

there's a problem there and that's the first step, you know. As long as they're alive, that's really what matters. and if you have a pulse, like you have the opportunity to continue and get better. You know, why am I supposed to say, oh, you know, marijuana maintenance, you're not allowed to do that. That doesn't work. They go out there, they use, they overdose, they die. Maybe if they were still doing what they were doing, they would get to a point and realize that their life would be different if they were fully sober. And that's not my journey to infringe on.

Yeah, you said it. You said, and I've seen, I know people in my life who started contemplating their relationship with maybe one substance or had a really bad night or event happened where they were brought back to life by Narcan. And they are today, many years later, after a variety of attempts, sober and AA, you know, and like it took what it took. Yeah. It took what it took.

I'll share this. I had a guy in here earlier who's just, wrote a book about an ayahuasca journey that he went on. And he's contemplating and drinking the books about like nothing in moderation. I don't know. But I kind of said to him, like I was like, you know, this could be, he basically, he did his ayahuasca journey and then it's two years later and he's on the book tour. So like a lot has changed in those two years since he went.

And he did go to kind of look at his relationship to alcohol and I think drugs and women and the whole thing. And just talking to him today, I just said to him, I was like, dude, I'm just proud that you're contemplating even making it change.

Yeah. And there was a part of me many years ago that would have enforced my will in that situation. I know that doesn't work. It's like leading a horse to water. Yeah. Okay, before we go, I'm just going to kind of like crack open this box in our can so you can like,

like, Like how easy is this just to show people that this little thing here? Thank you. Yeah. Save the life. This one. It's going to save a lot more lives. So what's next for you?

Med school? Finish school. You're at Drew? Yes. I have a, no, I don't have one yet. I am pursuing a bachelor's in neuroscience. So I have to get through. I'm on my last year.

Amazing. Really my last semester. Like I just need to get through the next few months. And then I will officially be one degree hotter and then on to, on to med school. Nice. Well, we're rooting for you. I know it's hard to kind of accept praise and accolades around something that you probably felt like was just you doing what you're supposed to do. But at some point in your life, like you made a decision to educate yourself around Narcan.

And that for me is just being a good human. So thanks for coming. Thanks for being an advocate. And this was great, Simone. Thank you. Likewise, likewise.