The Zac Clark Show - Shep Rose on Bravo Fame, Alcohol, Ayahuasca & Why He Finally Had to Change

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

After more than a decade on Bravo's hit reality show, Southern Charm, Shep Rose opens up about the moment he realized something had to change. Shep shares the phone call from Andy Cohen that became a wake-up call, the blackouts that scared him, and the ayahuasca journey in Costa Rica that forced him to confront his relationship with alcohol, attention, and the endless pursuit of more. This isn't a recovery story in the traditional sense. Shep doesn't identify as an alcoholic, and he's honest about still figuring it out -- the gray area, the setbacks, and the ongoing work of trying to live with more intention. That's what makes this conversation so compelling. Together, Shep and Zac talk openly about fame, aging, excess, the loneliness that can exist behind a public persona, and what it actually takes to change. Whether you know Shep from Southern Charm or you've never seen an episode, this is a conversation about the cost of always saying yes -- and what happens when the life you've always celebrated becomes the very thing you need to question. Shep's new book, Nothing in Moderation, explores many of these same themes – an honest, funny, and unflinching look at excess, fame, and figuring out what actually matters.  Link to Shep Rose’s book -- Nothing In Moderation: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GZQ9GQL7?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback Follow Shep Rose: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/relationshep/?hl=en Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shep Rose is a long-standing cast member on the show Southern Charm. For a while, I was like, want to make an omelet and you're going to break some eggs, whatever. The ratings are good. Shep has always been known as someone who says yes when it comes to partying, going out, etc. So it got out of hand. I was out of hand. I was overconsuming and taking everything that came my way. And I was just like, what the fuck is happening here?

You know, and I was scared. Thus, springboarding Shep forward to a journey and he writes about in his book, Nothing in moderation, which details his psychedelic experience with ayahuasca. It was to confront my excessive behavior. As it relates to drugs, alcohol, relationships, whatever it is. Yeah, I had this vision of me, King Shep,

and then all of a sudden that- So before we launch into it, I do wanna just say, Shep has written a book, nothing in moderation. The cover's sick. I mean, look at this guy's like, a long ass a trip. But it's, it's,

it's inspiring, man, because you've, you've been on TV for 12 years and we're 11 years now. I just clarified that. But why this change? Like, why? Well,

um, it basically was, look, the show started and, uh, I kind of write a little bit about this. And I mean, my heroes in life have always been,

uh, sort of rebels and people and you know guys that didn't ask permission you know they just did it you know uh keith richards yeah most infamous drug addict of all time yeah like a jack nicholson and as far and then you know hemingway and uh hunter s thompson and all these guys that are just live right up to the Hilt. I just loved their work and I loved their attitude, although, you know, probably reckless looking back, but at the time they were kings of the world, right? I'm probably still viewed that way. Anyhow, there I was at age 33 and the show came around. And all of a sudden, you know, I was not a rock star or a movie star, but I was something. Yeah, so the show is Southern Charm.

It's on Bravo. Yeah. Shepp has been there from day one, right? 11, we've filmed 12 seasons. 11 seasons have been out. I've been there since day one. I met our creator, Whitney, at a rooftop party in Charleston. Was it her idea?

Was she the brainchild? It's a guy. Oh, okay. Sorry, Whitney. It's okay. He gets that a lot. Yes. So Whitney was in Hollywood for 18 years as a screenwriter.

He's also a very talented musician, but he was trying to get things done in Hollywood with varying degrees of success. And then he came to, his mom moved from the Upper East Side Center Island, you name it, upper crust, art world finance. And her husband died. And she said, okay, I'm out on New York. I moved to Charleston, bought a very beautiful home. And her only son, Whitney, came down to help her meet the neighbors, so to speak. So they go around to these dinner parties and meet these very colorful Southern characters, very smart, very well-traveled, well-read, all these things. And it's sort of against type of what you would think the South just as a whole might be. I mean, the reputation of the South, I mean, the thing is, is if you go there, you understand.

But if you've never been there, you're just seeing from afar, you think about, you know, some pretty troglodyte-type people without real points of view and very stuck in their. ways rednecks basically and i i got love for redne what does troglodyte mean my sister warned me about this one too she's like he's going to use a lot of really big words he's really fucking smart so i'm gonna just like go ahead and ask what troglodyke means it's the opposite of area diet it means a k-man essentially you know okay all right um so anyhow i mean well i'm gonna be out of the boys this where you can just drop in troglodyte yeah you should they I mean my first I mean my first friends are troglodyites most of the time too. Yeah.

Um, anyhow. So, um, yeah. So here he was at these dinner parties with his mom. And he's like, wow, what, you know, literary reference was that or like, wow, they know something about, I mean, you know, history and cinema and all this stuff. They're very. And so he thought himself, oh, my God, there's something here. And there's got to be a documentary or a docu-series is what you would, which is what people who

Our high-minded about reality TV is. Exactly. That's like a really, really nice way. I was on a show in 20. So I was on The Bachelor, just so you know. So I have, we have this like, sure. You were? Yes. Talk to me.

I mean, what do you want to know? What was your experience like? When was it? COVID, 2020. So you were sober. Obviously, you've been sober for. I celebrated it, I think, nine years. Okay.

And was that like, was that something that, were you the only sober contestant? Yeah. Okay. That's interesting. And I was very proud of it. I was well, I mean, at that point, right? Like, which I want to get into with your experience, at that point, I've been living that way for a long time.

Yeah. So you thought people would always ask like, oh, were you trigger it? I was like, no, fuck these. I go out with people all the time and they drink and I don't. Like, it's very normal. Yeah, yeah. But I could see where six months in, a year in, like that's a, that's a, that's a, you know, storyline in itself because you get someone on that show and they're young and their sobriety.

How far did you make it? I was the last guy there. No way. Yeah, I got engaged and. What? Yeah. I haven't watched. I need to, God damn it now I have homework.

You're good. You're good. No, it was one of those experiences that I'm forever grateful for. It really put my story out there. The relationship didn't work out just because like two good people don't always make a good relationship as you probably know. And it was very, So I wanted to share that with you to say like, I get it.

Yeah. Yeah. So anyhow, yes. So I met him at a rooftop party. I was at the time, I was working on. I just got out of business school a couple of years before. You're 33. I'm 33 out of business school.

Was supposed to work and live in Dubai. I had an internship there between my first and second year, had this sick job offer. and then the 2008 crisis hit. And all of a sudden, everyone ran for cover, especially in the real estate and finance world. In every world, there was just no more money. The Bear Stearns folded and Lehman Brothers. Anyway, so there I was with a degree and living at home. And I mean, because there's something you said, and it's this idea that like everyone in your family was a somebody.

you were, I don't want to say black sheep. That's my word. No, that's okay. Okay, yeah, like you were kind of the black sheep, but here you are many years later, having had. Yeah, it's still still the black sheep, but that's okay. No, there is not a tension in my family at all in that regard. But yeah, I mean, I was on a track to become like an international businessman.

Is there attention within yourself around that idea that at 33 you're living at home with? No, that was when I was 30, you know, so I spent a year and I, half trying to get something going. And I was, my, my dad said, I think the, um, the market in Hong Kong is not as affected. And maybe, maybe you should go to Hong Kong. He was like, I'll, I'll front you to go to Hong Kong for three months and look for a job. Oh, man, did I have fun in Hong Kong? It was fucking rad, dude. 90 days in Hong Kong. I tore the place up, man. I had so much fun. Did not find a job. A lot of research and development. Yeah. Yeah. Drugs over. over there? I'm a party scene. Oh my God. Yeah, I met this. I met this chick. I wrote about this in my

first book. And she was like, I'll come to my friend's house. He was this Asian guy. And he was apparently the drug kingpin. And so we had a little bit of fun. And then he took us to a dive bar in Hong Kong that had a fucking shark tank behind the bar and like some three foot sharks swimming around. We got to feed them squid. I mean, this happened. Are you the kind of, this happened. Are you the the kind of guy that walks. So, so I think there's kind of two types of people in life. Like, the guy that walks into that situation, like, let's go. Yeah. Or the guy that walks into that situation is kind of like looking behind their back. Like, you're, no, I'm not as careful person. No fear. No fear. And I write in my book that the secret secret is a, it's a crucible

and my, my superpower is I say yes. I say yes to almost anything. Me too. And so, you know, What does it say about us, though? I'll tell you what. It means that we're not sitting on our ass waiting for something to happen. Right. You know, now will it get us in sticky situations, some quicksand and have to be pulled out? Yes, as you know. But at least we're out there like Indiana Jones trying to find the treasure, you know what I mean?

And I still live that way today. You know, like, I mean, no is a hard word for me to say. Yeah. And I mean, I want to be more no focus, especially. especially when it comes to certain behaviors for certain situations that produce certain behaviors, you know. So you get back from Hong Kong. Get back from Hong Kong.

You meet Whitney. And it's, no. And then I was, I was going to, I found a restaurant in Atlanta that was a franchise restaurant. It was Asian, like noodle bowl, rice bowl, sort of fast casual. I love all that stuff. Curry. I was like, oh, man, this is really good. And there was like six stores in Atlanta.

And they were like, we're looking to expand. And I was like, I would love to take this to like a Charleston, a Charlotte, a Raleigh or all three. And they were like, cool, do you know what you're doing? I was like, I do not know what I'm doing. And I was like, I'll just come to Atlanta. I'll work with you guys for however long you makes you comfortable. So what was the name of the shop? I am not giving them a shout out.

Fuck them. Good. Good. Amen. I'll tell you. I'll tell you why. Because I did it, got along with everybody. And then I mean, I was behind the counter.

I was on the register jing ding. I was had the walk. I was working the walk. I was doing everything chopping vegetables. And so they were like, okay, you're ready. And so I go out and I start shopping around. I found this. My friends in Raleigh were like, we have a perfect spot for you.

And so I was like, all right, guys, I'm ready. And the ownership were like, oh, yeah, well, yeah, I was like, what? I just spent a lot of time and effort, you know. and it they sort of kicked their feet around and then i find out that they got bought out by private equity and that they i was their plan b you know and that was devastating because i'd spent like seven eight months on working on something and all my friends and family were like okay shubs like has a path that he thinks and each store was pretty profitable i was going to make a decent living if everything went well and um all of a sudden it's erased and that the worst part is the

phone calls to like literally everybody you know like, hey, what's going on with that thing? And it's like a 10 minute what sounds like, you know, wo is me. But it's the conversation's over hard because they were embarrassing because you're on this path and then. Not embarrassing. Just like it was like I was a defeated man. And my dad was really worried about me because I was, he and he's not usually, you know. And he was like, how are you?

He's like, I'm going to come. I'm going to come. Is your old man so around? Yeah. Yeah. Is that a special relationship? Yeah. Yeah.

My mom and dad are fantastic. And I'll tell you a little bit about that. And that's in the book too. But anyhow, yeah, I mean, I wasn't, I wouldn't say a dark place, but I wasn't in a good place. And I didn't know what to do with myself. Then I meet, you know, one door closes and I meet Whitney. And then that whole thing starts going. So, yeah, it was an interesting time.

And do you believe that, like, in life, your path is chosen for you? or do you think free will is that what you're asking about i mean just i think about free will a lot and i i read about it a lot um and here's here's the theory behind no free will which scares the shit out of people by the way um especially like you know true believers and christians and religion and stuff um there's this there's a theory that if you could go back to any point in time in your life rewind you would make the exact same decision over and over and over again because of all the things that were before that whatever happened to you so it's like a time continuum like and you're going to take a left instead of a right every time for what reason we don't know and i know that's scary

to think of you know but there's a part of me that but there's a just for me 27 year olds heroin addict needle my arm crack pipe in my mouth like how do i actually get to this seat that i am in today 15 years later and i have to believe that i'm not going to go as far as i think i was chosen but there was something that was decided for me yes that's amazing and um which is a lot to think about and especially someone like a survivor of a crash where you're the only one and or a cancer a child beats cancer it's like oh gosh i'm supposed to be here it's it's heavy well that phone call you get i mean you could be working the walk still yeah i would i swear i'd be having just as much fun maybe not be sitting here with you but i'd probably be married with a couple kids and stuff so

the show comes about i've heard you say that a couple of times and i don't i don't buy all my friends are like it i too but that's okay no that's okay but like if i had if i had roots and i had to be somewhere like five, six days a week, I'd probably find, you know, like, oh, I've, you know, I'd hopefully be deeply in love. But I'd be like, okay, this is it. This is where I need, have to be. And I'm not going to sit here and watch Netflix by myself for the rest of my life, you know? It just so happens that the TV life of the entertainment world is a vagabond's life. And I like that. It's been a heck of a lot of fun. But I've always thought that. But so back to the show, the show begins. And, and, and, and, And all of a sudden, like notoriety, attention.

It kind of popped right off the bat, right? Yeah. Season, two seasons. You know, people are starting to pay attention and you're getting all sorts of DMs. And they're, you know, you're eating from the trough, basically. And by the way, the show's kind of about us partying, kind of. It is, you know, we're having a good time and we're laughing a bunch and fighting. a bunch and sleeping with each other a bunch.

And so there I was. I had brushed up, brushed up against some of the people that I admired the most, who were also notorious and well-known and things like that. Of course, on a much smaller scale, me on a much smaller scale. But it was still like, oh, shit, look at me. You know, like I'm in my mid-30s and life is pretty good. and I'm going to enjoy the fruits. How did your social circle view that?

My friends, you mean? My close friends. Yeah, people that you love. They loved it. They did. Yeah, everyone was stoked. I love to hear that because I did hear you say something about, which I had to work through, this idea of being on reality television and the stigma that kind of comes

with that. Well, that was early on. Half of my people were like, don't do this. And then the other half were like, go for it. Yeah. Especially considering the position I was in at the time. as far as not knowing what the future. But then my mom was the clincher.

She said, you should have been on TV years ago. I was like, thank you, mom. I'm sitting here talking to you, and it's true. I mean, you're a charismatic guy. You're a smart guy. And like my goal in this conversation is to get underneath that a little bit because obviously we got to a point where we had to make a change. Well, yeah.

And we're still messing up and stumbling around, you know, because there's no, even be able to say that is that a little bit i just don't want to be a hypocrite it's that that's and i don't want to act like i've got all the answers because i don't and i don't and this book you know it did it awoken a lot inside of me and a lot of really beautiful realizations and also some ugly truths were brought out. But it's not a magic pill, you know. And I'm and I honestly want to go back and do it again and really sort of hammer some things home.

Yeah. So let's lay the framework for the listeners. Because we could sit here and probably tell stories about the last 11 years for a few hours. And we probably have some friends in common and all that stuff. But so in 2023, this Bravo con happens, which for. the listener is essentially all the Bravo personalities get together in Las Vegas for a weekend of kind of appearances.

40,000 fans. Nuts. Yeah. And we did two of them in New York. Bravo fans are different, aren't they? Yeah. They're super loyal and enthusiastic. How cool is that?

In some cases, rabid. But not rabid in a dangerous way. Just like, ah, like you're the Beatles or something. It's pretty wild. But honestly, it gave me a super. The ones in New York gave me a very one. warm and fuzzy feeling. I mean, so did Vegas, but...

Was it Vegas or New York? Well, New York's the first two ones. And I liked that. It was at the Cravis Center or something like that. Lenny Kravitz Center? Yeah. Cravas. And after the evening, you go back to your hotel and then you have dinner with a friend.

You're in New York. You're not a big deal, right? You're not a big deal anywhere. Like, you're just a blip on the screen, but there's something about Vegas. It just doesn't, it's just like, oh, yeah, you're done. Good job. Now hit the casino, you know, and then so it got out of hand. I was out of hand.

I thought I was at a bachelor party, you know, and was overconsuming and taking everything that came my way. And, I mean, I didn't like miss any events, so to speak, but like definitely went to one without much sleep, if any, you know, and just kind of powered through it. I'm sure you understand those days. But I understand that. I also understand like there was a little bit of rationalizing there for me that I picked up on, which was like, well, but, but I didn't miss anything. Yeah. And that's a lie I told myself for many, many years because I could show up. Yeah. You did show up. Yeah. And so did you. It sounds like you said. Like you don't, you don't

say no. You show up. And if you're up until five and you have to be somewhere at seven, you're going to be there. That's correct. Yeah, I'm always on time. I mean, cocaine helps with that. No, I wasn't doing it before the event. John, I know you were. Yeah. But anyhow.

We're tongue and cheek with some of this stuff. Yeah. No, it's cool. Like, feel free. I mean, I'm here to let's dig. Yeah. But anyhow, yeah, so afterwards, you know, a couple black, I mean, you know, blacked out. Like, oh, what happened?

And I was, I mean, that plane ride home and then got a phone call from Andy. And he was like, look. you know, I can't help you if you're in a situation where you piss off the wrong person or you're seen as a liability. So I was like, yeah, yeah, I know, I know, I know, I know. Thank you. So I'm happy you say that because there's so many people out there. And I've talked to a lot of folks that have been on TV that feel like they are just a piece in the puzzle. But most of these networks do care about. Yeah. Because like that sounds like great television to me. Right. Right. On a sort of.

Well, it's funny. He did say, you know, I'm glad to hear that you're, you know, contripe and acknowledging this. I was like, how else would I be? He's like, you'd be surprised. Like, a lot of, a lot of people in this business are like, oh, yeah, so? You know, like, did I make a headline? Well, maybe I should have behaved worse, you know what I mean? But that's not who I wanted. But that's entitlement, you know, and that goes back to childhood, you know, how you're raised and just the way that you see the world. And it sounds like you actually had a pretty awesome upbringing. Beautiful upbra.

Where like principles and morals and those things are around you. So when someone has a real conversation, you sense that when Andy calls you, something goes off in your brain like, this guy's not being a dick. He's actually just. No, I knew that he wasn't. He's a fantastic person.

Yeah. Lucky to have them. Had you, so prior, I mean, I'm assuming you've had plenty of blackouts prior to that weekend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, whatever.

But no, it was like a short period of time. There was a couple other incidents leading up to it. And then one afterwards. And I was just like, what the fuck is happening here? You know? And I was scared, you know? Because like I always danced on the razor's edge. Always.

But I always felt like it was sort of, I don't know. I wasn't in too much danger. I don't know. It just felt different. It felt different. When you hung up the phone, were you thinking, I was like a ball. Were you thinking like, yeah.

I mean, I, I, I've flipped through the brochure of everything. Yeah. You know what I mean? Good for you. And I'm open to anything at all times, like, talk to me, you know, like, I've got, I've got several friends who are sober and, and I love them a lot. And I, we had so much fun, you know. And they, they were, I mean, they were right there shoulder to shoulder with me.

here's the other part as it pertains to the show and things like that their careers and families were suffering brothers, sisters, some with kids and wives and they had to stop and these guys on the show? No, no, no. These are your personal. These are deep

deep cut friends, yeah. And one of them works in a recovery center of Raleigh. He's a fan, I mean, we're as close as can be. That's great. And so I know about that. And so I had these people to talk to about it. And I had a long talk with him and he was just like, he's like, I've always known you were just wild

as shit. He's like, I never saw you as someone who needed anything, you know, that, oh, I need a drink or I need the dealer. Like I don't, I don't, now we're getting really serious. No, I mean, that's what I anticipated coming into this conversation. Yeah. Because here's. I don't have any dealer's numbers in my phone.

Does that make sense? And I haven't had for years and years. I used to. But this is a part of alcoholism and drugs. that's confusing to people. Yeah. Like you may have shown America the way that you party for 10 years and there's a lot of people out there that probably want to pin you in some way, shape, or form and say, this

guy is an alcoholic or this guy. Yeah. And I never do that because some people just love a good time and they can actually shut it down. No, I can't shut it down. No. There's here, here's what it is. It's physio- Tell me.

Tell me. Yeah. It's what I found, what after, you know, some analyzation, it's, it's mainly physiological. Like my body and my mind, like I can't, I keep thinking I'm 30 again or, you know, even younger or even up till 40. It was just like, whatever. Just consume, consume, yeah, you might, you know, rankle a few people here and there. but um and then something happened where i was like i wasn't processing your scotch on the rocks or whatever it was coming nearly as um easily or proficiently as i had before and it's just a lesson

very hard tolerance went down way down way down and it's scary as fuck and especially as you get older especially when you have more to lose and you're in the public eye i mean all these things yeah which might produce even more consumption just as a coping thing. And it's just like it could be a nasty cycle basically. I mean, my my my kind of the description of the like I know I'm an alcoholic and drug. I know that I cannot safely drink or use drugs because I'm going to end up in places that I just should not. Yeah. It sounds like so so what ends up happening is you do this ayahuasca trip, which I yeah. Can you just explain what that is so people can under because I you say the word Iowasca and someone might have never heard it before.

There's a, before that, there's a Robert Downey Jr. It's not his quote, but he said it and he said, yeah, when I drank, I broke out in handcuffs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an old AA. Yeah, yeah. I thought, I was like, oh, yeah, shit, yeah. Anyhow. Did you ever get arrested? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Probably like, but not, not in a long time, thank God, but I spent a night in the drunk tank a few times. Did you like feel consequences coming out of those moments or you're like, that was awesome? I didn't say it was awesome, but it was usually me, um, mouthing off to cops. I don't like authorities. And, uh, if, hey, where are you going? The fuck is it to you where I'm going? Like who the, you know, uh-oh. Yeah, game over. Yeah.

Back of the truck, my friend. One time I was in, I was in Nashville and I had to go home. I knew I had to go home. And I fell asleep in the back of the taxi. It was only a 10 minute drive. And I, woke up 30 minutes later and I'm like, what's going on? He's like, get out of the car. I was like, well, where am I? And I walk inside to the gas station and I like sort of knocked over a gum display case because I was trying to call a taxi. And the cops came and I was like, they were like, if you can describe what you're doing here. And I was like, I really can. They're like, you're coming with us. Anyway, it's unbelievable. I was thinking when you're telling that story, Tony Romo just got a DUI.

I saw that. I'm wearing my sixers. This is the first time we've potted since the Sixers got LeBron. How pumped was Tony Romo that the Sixer signed LeBron the same day as his DUI? It was like shoved into the third. Is that right? I didn't even realize that. Yeah, yeah.

Like it was knocked down a couple of wrongs because he's like, thank you. There's this great part in Veep, that show with Julia Louis Dreyfus. There's a scandal. And one of his, her advisor says, but what if Tom Hanks dies? cheese cheese he's like that's your plan like to get the focus off of us yeah too funny well you know the news cycle is crazy I know I know and I and I felt that like the 24 48 hours of just like heat or whatever it is and then like you wake up on day number three or four like up no one's thinking about me anymore the DM slow down yeah yeah yeah you felt that too yeah it's

I mean I mean the worst is like Googling to see like if anybody's saying anything about you you're like, oh shit, this is my life. I think there's a bit of dishonesty in the reality television world. It's like the truth for me is like we see the comments. We know what people write, you know, and that's a reality of our lives. And that's a lot to take on just from a mental health perspective. You know, because you go out and you have a bad night or I go out and, you know, yell at a taxi driver.

Like, there's people looking at all times and anyone today has a phone and can can make up a story about Shepard, Zach. That's, even if it's not true, it's going to get legs. That's true. And there's a story that Clint Eastwood was doing American sniper with Bradley Cooper. And he was asking about his personal life. And, you know, Bradley was telling Bradley, but whatever. I don't know him now.

I don't know him at all. But he was like, yeah, you know, it was sort of describing what you just did. And Clint Eastwood shake his hand, shook his head and laugh. He goes, what? He goes, you have no idea what we got away with in the 16. and 70s and basically 80s too. Like we got away with anything. Like it was, by the way, the journalist or whomever, they, they protected us.

Like there was no TMZ and the fans, you know, reveled in our, our even stories of our misbehavior, you know. Yeah. PR has completely changed. Not anymore. Everybody's got a microphone and a platform, even in the comment section, you know. And there's times when it gets legs, which is the craziest. Yeah.

The craziest thing. Yeah, slow news days is you'll be you're like, I mean, I hate that because I'm scrolling on my phone. And I'm, you know, I'm in the Bravo sphere, if you want to call it that. And I'm like, I find myself reading something and I'm like, oh my God, this is so mindless and not important and not interesting. But I'm a part of this monster. I can. And it, that's the worst part about this whole thing is I'm a part of some like plastic toxic like thing where my only real concern is not to be on someone's mind or their lips or whatever, which, you know, is, I mean,

God forbid I don't know. Yeah. The thing I'm thinking about, you're this close to ruin, it feels like. Yeah. At all, one, one move. And the thing that I'm thinking about when you're talking, Shep, is I am sure, I am certain that over the first 11 seasons of this show, you've had plenty of people come at you for a variety of different reasons that's surrounding substance abuse or bottoming out or bad nights or whatever it is. Yeah. And now, I mean, I'll hold up the book again. Like you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're,

you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, and like, will people actually acknowledge that? Well, I don't care what people like knowledge. Good. Honestly. I, uh, I, I'm glad I wrote it and, um, so can you tell me what Iowa, an ayahuasca trip is just like fundamentally. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So before I went. I, uh, was thinking about what to do or, or, uh, I, uh, I, different options you know what were those uh like hey there's a place in europe you like go for seven days there's actually a lot of places like that you just sort of detox and like get your mind right and you know there's like therapy there it's like my friend does it in europe and he was telling me

about it then i know that one they've several palm springs malibu you know it's not like crazy but it's like just like let's reset real quick and like repriorit i mean god forbid go for 30 days that would just be. Yeah, no, I hear you. No, but like, I was, I was in treatment for seven and a half months. So it's like, you know, seven days feels like, holy shit, you can do that. I don't know. Yeah.

There's all these little tricks, I guess. And whether they're valid or not is, is not for me to determine. I've come all the way on the other side of that thing. Like, whatever works for the individual person is what. Yeah. Yeah. Because just because you went this route doesn't mean that if this doesn't work, you can't explore another route.

That's the thing that I think people get twisted is like they put so much. pressure around this one decision to get help in a certain way that they actually deprive themselves from being open to another experience down the line. Yeah. Well, this is fascinating. Yeah. So my friend was, lived in Buenos Aires. Shout out to Bailey.

And she lived there for seven years. And she went to, she did ayahuasca seven different times. She was like, I know that you'll love it. Is there a number of times that you should or shouldn't? No. No. Yeah, yeah. There's people who've done it hundreds of times.

I'm not sure if I'm, I would go that far, but there was a guy in moderation. There was a guy that, yeah, there was a guy there that was on his fifth time that year. That calendar year. And I liked him a lot.

He was, I asked him what he was sorting through and it was pretty serious shit, family stuff. Anyhow. So, so she said, I had a vision of you. And I said,

well, what's the vision of me? And she said, you're an exit guy. I said, what does that mean? She said, you,

you're always looking for the exit in any situation. And you jump from mountaintop to mountain top without dealing with the valleys. And I was like, oh, man, nailed it. And so that was just one little thing. And I talked to my Navy SEAL friend. And he was like, go to this place, Rhythmia. And it's sort of a good starter. R-Y-T-H-M-I-A.

Yeah. Rhythmia. M-A, yeah. Yeah. And it's nice. and it's like accredited. Like it's one of the few ones that like it's it's very they've seen it all. They've done it all.

The staff's amazing. You're in good hands. And the accommodations are quite nice too, you know, air conditioning, cold plunge, pool, sauna and all that stuff. But they really take care of you. They've done it before many, many, many, many times. So they know how to get you ready and all the questions to ask and you and to answers of them. Anyway, so I went there.

and I was totally fish out of water. And I love that for myself because I become a child essentially. And so I'm very curious. My eyes are wide open. I don't know what to expect next. And so I started a journal a lot and shared some of the journals via text with some close friends and family. And they were like, you got to keep going. This is this.

First of all, we're fascinated. And so speaking of recovery, and helping and stuff like that. The owner or the founder, Jerry, great guy. We got to know him. He's like, it looks like a guru. He's got like a beard and long hair. And he was a, he was married with kids and made a bundle of money and was addicted to

dilaudid, you know, and other things and was a bad guy. He was like, I was a bad guy. So he went to rehab in Malibu and roomed with like a famous, I don't want to tell his whole story. He then got out of rehab. spent the next five years with some other fellow rehab guys just living in Malibu and literally cutting a wide swath through Hollywood just parties coke all of it ecstasy and girls and all this stuff and he was like in a bad place and you know and uh he didn't know what to do he he finally

turned to alternative medicine and it changed his whole life he had of he was crying and asking whatever entity he envisioned. What can I do? I'm irredeemable. He's like, no, you can go and do this. And he had the vision right then and there. And he went and used some of his money that he had left over after all his shenan and started this rhythmia.

And he got kicked out of all the boarding schools. So did I. And we connected that week. And he said some powerful. things to me at the end of the trip, but about just like, hey, man, and this is a part of what I learned. I mean, I heard some of the most impactful and traumatic stories from other people about bad parents, mothers, fathers, uncles, abuse, sexual and otherwise, lots of that. And just, you know, stuff that will take your breath away.

And I, my, the feeling of gratitude of how good I had had it. And how I have it was so strong coming out of that. And don't, you know, you're sitting on a pretty sweet ticket. You know what I mean? Don't fuck it up. And don't fuck it up for your friends, your family, but most of all for you. Yeah. I mean, there, there is some.

credit that happened because 46 yeah there had to be some willingness like you you were at a place where you were actually ready to feel that gratitude and acknowledge what you have and because you made a you made a comment earlier around like the guy that is on reality television show and gets a headline and like he's like oh I should have done more or like the entitlement right and like it feels like to me this experience humbled you a bit like it's a bit like it's like Yeah, I did. And I had this vision the second night where. So when you get there, you just just, you have two days of prep like you're doing breathing work. No acid. No. Ayahuasca is a psychedelic. Yeah. It's DMT. So DMT is present in your body right now. If I cut you open or you're urinated into a cup, there would be small traces of DMT. The rumor is, rumor, there's medical experts who can't prove it that say, DMT is present when you're born and when you die, hence seeing the light, or whatever vision you might have when you die that you hear about when people come back from the dead. And then a lot of people say, and it's not provable, that DMT is the most active thing when you dream, when you have vivid dreams.

That's DMT, which makes sense considering the hallucinations that you have. So anyhow, it's much, it's present in you. It's not an outside substance. It just really exacerbated. It's a root and a leaf out of the Amazon that's mixed together. It's been used for thousands of years in the tribal regions of the Amazon to really help with wellness there. God knows what they had going on or have going on. So, yeah, it's valid.

I mean, and I've had grown men and women crying. Like, not like after the ceremony the next day, a couple men, you know, I need a hug, like tough men. like a former Marine. It's like my father was a terrible man, all these things. And so I had this vision on the second night of me on a table with a big chair, King Shep, the giant and all the food and wine and everything you'd want on the table. And I was like, oh, there I am. And then all of a sudden the table moved backwards, revealing an infinite amount of chairs.

and that your little fantasy about being king is no more valid than the six other billion people on the planet. And then I went through this spiral of shame about wanting more. Why do I want more? Everything I have is inside of me. And then I went outside and I looked up at the stars and I was writhing around, just tearing myself apart. You do that there. It's amazing.

I mean, I personally was, you know, very affected. You're growling and snarling. And then I looked up at the sky and there was the big dipper. And I tried to stuff all the stars into the big dipper. Don't know why. And I was like, get in there. Get in there. And the big dipper got bigger and bigger until the big dipper turned into the chair that I was

sitting at at the table. and you can never have enough. There's not enough stars in the universe if you want more, if you always want more. Did you, what was your mission going in there? That's the other part. Well, it was to confront my excessive behavior. As it relates to drugs, alcohol, relationships, whatever it is. Yeah, I had a thing about, you know, blasee hookups and stuff like, why do that?

know it's not going to go somewhere with somebody, although that's a whole other discussion. I mean, these days, you know, there's all sorts of situation ships out there where it's like, you know, like, hey, come over. Okay, cool. I'd love to. I'll be right there kind of thing. But there's no like underlying seriousness. Although things do get, the waters get muddy often in that scenario.

Well, that, I mean, for that to be truly honest and authentic, both people have to be very well. Yeah. on the same pace. Yes. And that's why never whisper bullshit in someone's ear and make promises you can't keep. And I've been pretty good about that. I believe that too. Like,

I believe that just in conversing with you here, I actually believe that you're an honest guy. Yeah, that's a big thing with me is honest. Might not always be what people want to hear. Yeah. You know, and I like to have conversations.

I'm an arguer kind of. So I'm, you know, I like to get to the heart of things. For example, I had a date and she's great. But like she, we, towards the end started bickering about different stances on things. And we're still great friends, but I think we both were like, okay, this probably isn't going to work long term because of our, different views on X, Y, and Z, which is just, and she's like, but I'm okay with that, you know, or was like I'm not like with anybody at all. But that was like fine with me too. You know what I mean? Yeah. So

you were, the question was mission, vision, do they tell you to go in there with nothing? Like what, because you said you wanted to. Oh, they say, you might think why you're here, there, you might know why you're coming here and you might leave with the, I had no idea that was lingering or that was underneath it all. So you never know. When you think about this experience you had and where you are today, would you consider it like a spiritual experience or do you feel like you are a spiritual person? I am not a religious person. I went to school, went to all this Sunday school. I went to high school where we had to go to church four days a week. That did not do well for my, you know, belief. I was just like, what am I doing here? Of course, I was 15 and 16.

years old. But yeah, this was spiritual, you know, and it was personal. And, you know, I just heard stories that just, I mean, I had the last night breathing exercise. I was not on the medicine. It was the last day and they do this final breathing. Let me set the stage. When I got there, first day, the guys leaving, guys and girls leaving, we all did a breathing together. I heard people burst into tears. And I was like, God, they're not even on the medicine. And then Another guy, yeah, I mean, had to leave and all this stuff. I was like, that's wild. But then my final day when I'm doing the breathing and I had this cavalcade of memories,

beautiful memories. My mom making pancakes for me and my buddies. Me and my brother, we shared a bedroom making him laugh all night. My dad and I fishing. My, you know, my deceased grandfathers and uncle and in a beautiful way. and then finally this beautiful memory of when me and my mom and my dad and my brother hid behind the couch in our courtyard and watched my sister get picked up for prom for the first time. It was just like, you know, I just, my heart, I was like, oh.

And I started crying and crying and crying because of the beauty and the love that I've received. And that's spiritual, man. Like how can you, how can you deny that, you know? Amen. Cost is this $50,000 or $10,000? I mean, are we talking? Five or six? Okay.

Yeah. And that feels reasonable. Yeah. For a week. And I mean, the breakthroughs that I saw. How big is the group? 20, 25, something like that? 50.

50 people. Yeah. And I know that sounds like a lot and is a lot. And I was like, whoa, there's a lot of people here. But it's so personal. It's not a group activity. You're forbade. You're not a social.

You're not allowed to talk to anybody, touch anybody. If you know someone who's also there, you have to be on separate parts of the room. There's this giant dojo, like from the karate kid. And there's all these mattresses. They put women on one side and men on the other. And the shaman has his court of shaman helpers. And there's, again, very well staffed. but the shaman helpers are amazing.

You know, there's chanting, you know, ah, but da-da-da-da-ta-ta-ta-da-da-da. And then they spit this like juice on you sometimes and rub your head and put feathers over you. And you're like, whoa, this is crazy. Do they introduce some medication to everyone at the same time? Yes. You get a line. Two separate lines. First cup is served.

Lay down. You have a blanket, eye mask if you want, pillow and a barf bucket. and you they say okay in an hour and a half you second cup after the second cup the bar is open and then the the directive is if you can think drink which means if you're like should i go go but if you're drink alcohol no no it's it's it's a it's a drink the iwaska it's like a purple sludge yeah you lost me i mean like i okay got yeah so i had the most i had was four and that was the first night i'm there to confront excess And I had four of the first night.

And that's when I wrote down in my journal, why must I always lick the jar? Like Winnie the Pooh, the honeypot on his head. And so that was something that I sort of asked myself for a couple days. And then by the way, the shaman's helpers, there's a guitarist, a flute. Someone plays flute, bongos, there's beautiful Spanish singers. One night, there was a full-on concert in that place. It was fucking awesome. And you're, so you start on day three, if there's two days of prep and then how long?

You do four nights in a row of the medicine. So three, four, five, and six. And then you go home. Was there a point where you were like, this is too much for me? After night three, I could have abstained, but because I've really had an big impactful night on night three. But I did it. And I'm glad I did it because I had a really beautiful vision about my best friend's brother who had passed away. he kind of came to me.

I wasn't able to go to his funeral. I was in Buenos Aires at the time. He told me to tell my best friend that he was proud of him. I am too because he had raised three kids and took over the family business, a wonderful wife. And yeah, that was important. So I'm happy I did the fourth. Are you a sensitive guy or is that coming out after this?

No, no. I cry a ton. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's beautiful. I love that. Not a ton, but like movies, you know, certain movies, but yeah, sometimes I do. And on day seven, everyone leaves. Yeah. Yeah. And, well, first of all, I wrote on day two, night two, I wrote on my chest, follow and then do it an arrow to my heart. And then I spent the next day asking, what does it mean to follow your heart? What does it mean to follow your heart? And I guess you'll have to read the book. to find out what I meant, what I was shown. And it was just a lot of, I mean, it's follow your passions, focus on things that produce positive results and give you inner joy and makes your heart bigger and swollen with goodness. And that in turn is infectious to your friends and family.

And it's just, yeah. So that's it. the potential of your heart. Follow that. Were you able to forgive yourself? Yeah, I don't, I didn't do, again, nobody died, you know what I mean? I know that, but I, as someone who has a lot of experience overshooting the mark, yeah. I, at some point, had enough nights and enough times and enough moments where I wasn't able to say it out loud

because I had a front that I was carrying, but I had to forgive myself. Yeah, I hear you. And, you know, post-I-A-Wasca, we went, my friend came down and met me. He was going to be in Costa Rica anyway. And then my other friend who had been there five times, both surfers. I'm a surfer. And we went out and we went to Tamarindo. They asked you not to drink for like seven days after and three weeks before or something

like that. So I hadn't had to drink a while, fine. And we went to this place called Witch's Rock. We'd rent it. We hired a boat and had a sick session, just us at this famous surf break. And so that was a cool way to end it. But, you know, I got back to the world, you know, a little weary, a little like. When was this timing-wise?

It's just like almost three years ago. So it's been a while. Yeah, I'm very curious about that piece too. Like what, what- Well, yeah. The reintegration. Yeah, the integration. Your relationship to moderation and drinking and drugs and food and sex and all the.

So I was good. I had a couple incidents that scared me. You know, a couple. I was like, what, what? No, no. You know? And I talked to my friend who I met down there who I consider a bit of a mentor. Awesome dude.

And a badass mofo as far as Navy SEAL and things like that. He was actually there with me and another guy. Anyway, I still stay in touch with them. And I, you know, I called him. I was like, listen. What happened? He's like, stop. forgive yourself like you are not you can't just rewire yourself in a week at in jaco stro

with the aid of you know this this awesome medicine but so i was good and then you know i then i'll have lapses where you know month or two and you're like what the fuck are you doing you know so anyway it's a ongoing thing but yeah it's starting to get pretty debilitating meaning know, ends and outs, but I, I, my big, my big change was, I was like, okay, this isn't funny anymore. You know what I mean? It's like an awareness of like, I'm not going to forget about the facade. Like, this actually affects me if I screw up like deeply. For a while, I was like, yeah, you know, want to make an omelet, you know, break some eggs, whatever, you know, the ratings are good, you know, kind of thing, you know. That only serves for so long. Yeah, that's right. So I'm,

I'm way more sensitive about my own actions and things like that. And so the maintenance, the way that my brain works is the way I'm thinking through this is you leading up to this ayahuasca trip, you're going there because you have this terrible night. Well, more than that. Well, yeah, but that's like the precipice of what is precipice the right word there? Yeah, it is. Okay, good.

Precipice of what. there's a night there's a bottom moment or whatever it is where you talk to and you go and you do this seven day kind of healing journey where you know there's a wellness component you can't drink before it you're not really supposed to drink after it you have this very very powerful experience but then you're back in the real world yeah and that was um something i had to learn therapy is or like is there like mini trips that you go on or what what is the i went to a therapist that specializes in integration after these things. And it was really interesting.

And I liked it. And then we started filming again. And I was like, I told production about it. They were like, well, will she, will she do a session on camera? I was like, oh, let me ask. And I text her, she was like, that's a big no. And basically like, don't, yeah, you know, like, that's not what I'm doing. And I was like, oh.

So that was the end of that. Yeah. Unfortunately, again, if I could do it again, which I will, I fully plan on going again. And they've been super cool. They're like, come back, bring friends, bring maybe cast members. I've gotten tentatively, Austin is a little interested. And I would love that. And I've got other friends that, yeah, maybe go back.

But with the full thing of like, okay, this time when you, you know, the integration, treat it. Now they tell you all about that, but it's sort of like you have to live it. And so, yeah, I'm looking forward to that sort of new experience. Or, yeah. Me too. I mean, one, I'm proud of you. It takes a lot to, like, take this step. Yeah, and that's the other part.

You know, when I got up and brought at our reunion and I knew that I'd fucked up. And I knew it was going to be a topic of conversation. I didn't fuck up on camera, but it doesn't matter. It was going to be talked about. And so I was like, I'm going to get ahead of this. And I gave this very heartfelt speech about some of the stuff that we talked about earlier and, you know, saying that like keeping something inside of you and internalizing produces despair. And I'm just going to share that I'm struggling and I'm going to try to be better.

And these are my blind spots and all this stuff. And when I was in, I was doing ayahuasca and the reunion came out. I was on my phone, not a lot, but like, you know, the next morning I knew it had aired the night before. I got so many fucking messages. First of all, while we were filming the reunion, I, again, I bear my soul. I was just like, you know, I'm brushing up against a very dangerous thing, meaning like my, you know, like, I talked a little bit about Anthony Bourdain and Owen Wilson, who guys that seemingly had it all and, you know. Yeah, it's a behavioral health.

I mean, look, I, Chris Cornell. I mean, you've seen this commercial, Shep, and you're the, and I'm not, but the guy who was outgoing and charismatic and never gets to a place where they let others in is, especially as 40-year-old men sitting here talking to each other. Robin Williams, another one, you know, I mean, it's terrifying. Yeah, it's terrifying. But, and you, something happens to us in our 40s because we're kind of like, you're managing up to your parents and then you're managing down to a lot of people, their kids.

I mean, that's not for me and you, but, and it's also just like, what am I doing my life? Yeah, yeah. But then again, everything's going well, man. It's another season. Bing, bang, boom. Here's a stack of cash and got a few months off. And yeah. So I'm not blaming anybody. I'm just saying it's like it was been an interesting life in that regard, you know? So do you consider yourself, how do you explain to people like your relationship with, let's say, like alcohol? Do you, I mean, you, you, I mean, you, you, obviously you don't identify as an alcoholic. I mean, sometimes I feel like I am, but I feel like a lot of people are that don't, I don't openly say it. Yeah. You know,

and, you know, the way I'm- Can you go out and just have two drinks? Yes, yes, I can't. I can go watch the ball game, go home.

That's a big one. No, I can't. Oh, you can. No, dude. Yeah,

the problem is- in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, people don't often like, they skip over this or they don't acknowledge it. The author actually says, go out and try control drinking. You know, like, if you don't like what we have here, go try it. And I've told that to guys before and they've come back and like, yeah, that did not work. Well, yeah, I mean, the problem is like a day drinking situation and then a dinner and then where are we going next.

And then it's just like. Those are the situations that. Yeah, maybe it's the World Cup or whatever everybody congregates, you know, here. And then that's kind of, you know, that was a little about what happened in Brahma. on, you know, margaritas with the VIP tent, you know, hey, it's Shep, you know, and then on to the next thing and then the casino and then some fans, oh, look who it is, you know, I'm not blaming anybody. I'm just saying that's the environment.

I couldn't imagine drinking in having any public image. Like I couldn't imagine the stress that comes with that because I'm a guy who rides off the energy and rides off the high and once that dopamine starts crushing, like, dude, anything. It's the roller coaster. It's the hang out. People are excited to see you and meet you and take a picture with you and just hang out with you. Well, the thing you said that I identify was you're like consuming. Like I was consuming anything that was put in front of me.

And that's people don't understand that. I'm like literally anything, whether it was food or drugs or booze or, you know, jumping off a cliff. Like whatever the thing was that I could consume, I was going to do it. Yeah. I think my like right now. And I, again, I have not. figured it out but I'm trying I mean for a while I had a couple bad months a couple bad incidents of late you know again everyone's fine but I was just like and I was like what is this

like what is this it's interesting how you always go to everyone you know like well yeah I mean I everyone's fine like are you fine you know like that's like no I mean I you mean the anxiety or whatever you want to call it is this is crippling and that's it's And, you know, I'm a positive outlook person. So it takes me a couple days of wallowing in my own, whatever, self-pity. But no, I, it's good. It's good. I'm analyzing.

I'm tinkering. If I, I don't want to be so tight on the rail that the train goes off. I mean, you mentioned Bourdain and, like, have you thought about not being here? Is that like, is that a real thought for you or not? No, but I understand. You understand it, yeah. Having a million friends, but no one to talk to. and internalizing.

Good thing I'm a loud mouth. I tell everybody all my problems, and that's super important. But I can only imagine someone like Bourdain who had who struggle with drugs in the past. I can only imagine because I have read a book about him after the fact by his ex-like personal assistant. It was fascinating. What happened to him is his show was so popular and it became a beast. and his joy had diminished from and he hadn't been he he had used to hang out with the crew and the van and on the way to this he was isolated you know and he might have been using again i don't know

but it was all too much for him that's that's what i read into it and i can kind of understand that i you know i can understand but no i'm good i'm not yeah i mean the the the booze works like it's medicine in the moment it's medicine right Like in the moment, it's a way to not feel. Yes, correct. And it's coping. And it's, well, at least in the next few hours, I'll just be trying to make everyone laugh and things like that. But I think a big-

Who knows the Shepa that I'm getting to see a little bit of today? Like, who knows that guy in your life? Like, the guy underneath the-because, I'll be honest. Like, what I, another thing that's coming up for me in this conversation is I've met many, many, many people in this journey who are really, really, really, really, smart and really charismatic and really outgoing and people fucking love them. And I worry about them because like you just said, like they'll just go make people laugh or they're just to tell people what they want to hear. And sometimes when those people get it, they are a force in this world because they are

service minded and they just give so much of their time and energy and intelligence to others. Right. And, you know, I wrote about this. Well, first, yeah, I will go back to that. I was at an event and this guy I really respect and he's been very successful, but his path has been crazy. He's like, whatever you've done, I've done it and I've done it maybe twice. He's like he's made a lot of money before he got married and had kids, was running all around and doing all this misbehaving, essentially.

And he was like, so I was at this event that he was hosting. It was a very beautiful event, cancer research for kids, all that. And we were all at this amazing spot. And I just, you know, I believe my own bullshit, you know. And the next week, he was like, hey, I've got something to tell you. I was like, what's up? He was like, you have much more to offer than being the life of the party. I was like, oh, shit, man.

Because he knows, you know. And so I've leaned on him of late, been like, talk to me about this. Talk to me about that. What did you do? with that, you know, and it's it's very interesting. And again, I'm talking about it is the number one thing, you know. But when when I talked about it on camera at the reunion, I kind of strayed from that. And I got all these DMs, amazing DMs, like, oh my God, that was so powerful. But now the burden of proof was on my shoulders, which I knew was going to happen, you know. So, and now with the book, it's, it's added. And that's good. That's good. You should put a burden on yourself. to a certain degree, you know? Because if you don't say anything to anybody and you just try to like deal with it on your own, then people that love you won't hold you accountable, I think.

Does that make sense? Yeah. No, I mean, yes, all those things make sense to me. And the thing I heard you say in another interview, someone had asked you maybe to describe yourself in three words and you said, fun and wild, which I get and relate to. And I'm experiencing your fun and you're wild and that's a good thing. And then the third word you used was generous. And that was a really interesting word for me personally to hear.

One, I feel like I'm pretty generous. And I feel like I was generous even before I got sober. There's too generous. You know, generous of spirit is, you know. That's where like when you talk about your buddy. Yeah. This guy that you're leading on right now when he says to you, Shep, like I think there's, you have a lot more like that's what I'm intrigued by with you.

Like what could that generosity look like and just spirit? and how that would serve you because what I've learned about myself is if I'm thinking of others and I'm like I'm reaching out to others and I'm being generous of spirit like I can't be thinking about myself. That's great. And when you help others in whatever capacity, the dictum is true. It ends up helping you just as much, if not more than the people that you're trying to help. And that's true with charity work and things like that.

But I mean, I'm not going to sit around saying I'm, you know, working with the March of Dimes or anything like now. anything like that. No, but you, you've done a lot of good in the world. I've tried. And I mean, a lot of the good is. You even mentioned at the Bravo con,

like these people that come up to you and by you put it. You make their day. I mean, I make, it's amazing and I have this power. That's what you want to call it. I've got this ability to just by posing with the, the camera,

you just made my whole weekend. And then if you think about it, because I have, they send that to their friends and or their aunt. or their grandmother or whatever. And it becomes this amazing ripple effect where everybody, it produces a smile and a warm and warm feeling.

Well, then what are they going to say? How was he? Yeah, that's great. How was he? He was great, who's nice, he's nice, you know? And I could count on two fingers, like maybe some negative encounters I've had out of 10,000.

You know what I mean? So that's pretty good. Yeah, no, it is. I want to leave you with kind of the question I'm most curious about, which is, What do you want this book to do? Like, what do you, what do you, because I'm feeling like, okay, you've had a couple

like these incidents lately. Like you're, you're out here on press. You're talking about the book. Yeah, the press part. I'm living out of my suitcase. And that, that's like, so yeah, it's just like for me personally, it's like a, a catalyst for hopefully for more discipline. And discipline's hard for me, you know, and saying yes is easy for me.

But I've got to be better. And I feel confident that I can. I mean, another thing that people always tell me to shut the fuck up about is I have it in my mind. You know, we're talking about being single in our 40s. Like I have it in my mind that like being in a serious relationship, family, all that stuff would be so. talk about putting your energy into the right places, you know, I think that would be transformative. And again, I'm not just saying it as if I, like, want to go out and get a sandwich, you know, like I understand what has to happen and the connection that has to be made and all the sacrifice and stuff.

But I envy some of my friends, a lot of my friends that, you know, they can't, they can't go out. You know, they can go out to dinner, but they got to go home. They got the babysitters waiting or whatever. Like that sounds interesting to me. You know what I mean? Yeah, there's. Is that putting a burden on the relationship? I'm asking.

I mean, maybe you find someone that gives you the freedom to live to a degree the way that you need to live to feel fulfilled, but also. And that's not to say you need to like go out and run a muck, but. Yeah. To go surfing and like not be like on your on your tail about like. passions. Chase the passions. The passions are harmless, fishing, surfing, hunting.

Because there's relationships that exist where that is true. Like two people have very big lives. Yeah. But I saw somebody the other day, again, you don't care about time, do you? No, no, no, we're good. I don't care of it. Okay, good. There is, it was online and it was a couple.

The guy was older. That's a loaded question, by the way. You don't care about time. It's a loaded question. No, no, no. We could go deep place like caring about time. time in general. Let's go for as long as we want, maybe 10 minutes if you want, or whatever. But it was a guy, it was a very attractive younger girl and a guy and a handsome older gentleman.

And their deal was you can only, we can only have alcohol when we're with each other. When we're on vacation by ourselves or working or whatever, that's, that's forbidden. And I was like, oh, what an interesting rule that probably makes sense on a lot of levels, you know? Yeah, I don't. I mean, there's a lot of cheating and foul play. Guess what? Three glasses of wine and you're starting to think that way, even more, you know. And that's why I don't think people should be given permission to use that as an excuse, right?

It's like, you know. No, I know. And I was just, I said it out loud because I was wondering what you would think of something like that. I think the beautiful thing about the world we live in today is that we actually have been given permission to put things in place in a relationship that feel good to the couple. And I don't think the traditional idea of trying to like impart rules on yourself is I think of constructive thing, you know. But anyway. Well, no, like kids, man, I think about kids all the time. And it's funny, I'll share a story with you.

I was running. I was up in Connecticut with my buddy Sean last week and we went out for a run. And he's in a very similar situation in life as I am. Right. And we were running by a field and I said, do you want kids? And he said, no. And I said, so you're telling yourself the same lie that I've told myself for many years, right? Which is like, I know in my heart of hearts that I want to be a dad.

I think I've just been, I think I've protected saying out that that out loud and fear that it never happens, which is, I think it'd be incredibly rewarding. Of course. Do you want to be a dad? Oh yeah. Yeah, I think so. I know so. But, you know, it's funny. I was just in my sister's house. She has three girls from age 16 to 10. And the younger ones were it's summer. So I walk in because I live in a vagabond life right now. As I walk. I walk in. I walk. in and she's my sister's like, we're all sick. They all had like terrible head colds. They're on the couch under the covers watching a TV. I'm like, it's not glamorous. In fact, 90% of it is probably like a grind. But there's this great, great, do you know Bob Odenkirk? He's better call Saul? Yeah. He has this great thing. I'll show it to you. And he says, who are you jealous of the interviewer. And he said, anybody that has little kids at home, kids at home. He's like, why? He goes, well, I know what I'm doing. I know why I'm here. I know what a part of the world I am. I don't have to ask that question. I have to pick up all the shit that they

disorganize. I got to take them to school. I got to feed them and make sure they have a good day and laughs and all that. He's like, I didn't have to ask any questions. I knew why I was here. I was like when I get goosebumps thinking about it, that's an amazing way to look at it, you know? Purpose. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, when they leave the house, obviously, that's something that you can. Yeah, there's all this shit out here out there now.

Like, you can get into the Zoom scroll on Instagram about like truly the little amount of time that you really have. Yeah. You know, with your kids. Because once they're like 13, right, they start hanging out with friends. They don't want to be around you anymore. And the next thing you know, they're kind of like off the college. So it's really just like. Yeah. And I, you know, it's not all peaches and cream. I know that. Do you siblings?

I do. I have a brother and sister and they have between them five kids. Are you four girls and a nephew? Like good relationships. Great. Great. They're fantastic. I was just with my brother yesterday. What do they think about all this? I had this panic moment, Zach. I was, I called my parents. I had, producers were like, you do a call with your mom. I said, yeah, yeah, that's no problem. They're like, we just want you to tell her, you know, like talk to her about this and that. And it'll be easy for us and we love your mom.

So I texted my mom. She's like, I'm at book club. She's a huge reader. I mean, huge. That's why I write. That's why I read. She's responsible for whatever vocabulary acumen I have. And so she's like, I book club call you back.

And I was like, guys, let's give her like 45 minutes. Why don't you go break for lunch or whatever? And so then I called and didn't answer. I called my dad. He didn't answer. I was like, guys, it's not going to happen today. They're like, it's no problem. And then like a few hours later texted like, hey, what is everything okay?

And I didn't hear back and I went to bed and I got lying in bed. I'm like, oh my God, they read the book. They read the book. They're not happy. You know, I share a lot about substances and, you know, just wild shit. I was like, they're embarrassed. Maybe their friends read it and got. back to them.

Maybe it was a book club book for the month. Yeah, no, I don't think that's a smart move. But then my mom called me the next day. And I was like, hello? I was like, are you of what? She was like, no, oh, no, we just, we didn't get your text. So sorry, we were busy and this and that. I was like, oh, thank God.

So yeah, it definitely gave me a little scary moment there. Because the last thing I want to do is, is disappoint my mom and dad. And that's kind of, you know, and I, and, you know, coming close to do. that, especially in the public eye. I mean, as we said before, all it takes is one article or one incident that leads to an article. And then all there, you know, it's just like a wildfire out there with friends and family. And of course, it's going to be sent to everybody, you know, by, by people that don't give a shit about you. And they're going to become aware of this and that. And then I'm sure there's text chains. Oh, my God, is he okay? Or they call or whatever.

And you got to go through that. But, yeah, I mean, I, I'm going to say this very selfishly, but there is a part of me that if, you know, you continue, then maybe you go back and do another treatment. But like just, I feel like I have to say to you that like this recovery thing is like over here if and when you would ever want to explore that because it's it's so misunderstood, you know,

and it's really about like I'm sitting here talking to you and how much you love your parents and your siblings and like there's deep cut friends. And those are the relationships that I've really been so blessed to expand on in my recovery because I'm actually present. Yeah. And are you of the opinion that recovery has to do the 12 step? No, no.

I mean, look, I am a product of 12 step recovery. Like I go to AA meetings. I also had a very different experience where like the first eight or nine years, like I had no public facing anything, you know, so it was a lot easier to kind of get and stay sober. And then I had my crew and my meetings. So when I came back to New York after filming, it was like a nothing thing for me to get right back in there.

So I'm still very active in my program. I don't give a shit how people get sober today. I just think that for folks that have an unhealthy relationship with substances, it's something to try on. I will say the people that I've seen hang around, hang around the hoop to use a basketball term. Of course. I love it. Eventually find AA.

Interesting. Because of the community and the fellowship movies and the public have not done AAA any favors. Well, it's, oh man. I mean, don't, you know, started like, what about our parents' generation? How many people really needed to go to A.A. that you were as a child, they had a dinner party and you're like, God, Gus is really going after it tonight, but you didn't know any better. Well, I mean, even with this trip that you went on, like, for me, I've been working in behavior. health care for 14 years.

If you would have said to me 10 years ago, like, hey, there's this new treatment that people are using, you know, kind of internal, uh, psychedelic medication to help people. I would have said, that's fucking dangerous and, you know, blah, blah. And now I'm like, who am I? Dude, I mean, who am I to deprive someone from an experience? And like, it got us to this table and who knows what happens from this conversation, right? I don't know. Like Kelly Slater's on the board there.

Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. Surfer, right? Yeah, he's a hero of mine. I've got to meet him a couple of times. And that really, with me a really sort of, I was like, hey, bud, wonder with it. He was like, ah, I will talk. You know, I was like, yeah. And there's famously Ron White, the comedian that he went and he hadn't had a drink in 16 months. Since. I think. And I could be underestimating. I saw the interview where it was very impactful for him, because his whole image was about drinking. And I understand that too. But like he got on stage with a glass of scotch.

And he told all these tales. He's very funny. But he's like, I didn't know, you know, a path without it. If you go out, like you go out to dinner night, you'll have a drink? No. I'm going to be good this week. I've decided. I'm in New York.

It's sensory overload. I've told myself, no. I'm not going to drink this week. Well, you have permission. If you do, I'm just letting you know. I know. No, no, no, no, I'm glad you asked. Yeah.

Like, I told, I told myself, I was like, all right, I'm going to get in the fucking New York Times on Thursday. Like, you're walking down park a half naked, bro. Well, that's the burden of proof, right? Like, I, I'm not trying to do that to influence my own self because it's all internal, you know, like, you're right. I could go have a beer right now. And that would be okay.

I could go back to my hotel, take a nap, have a nice dinner, have a split a bottle of wine with an old friend and go home. Like that, I can do that. I can do that easy. But I'm working this week. That doesn't do anything for you, does it? It makes me happy. Does.

Okay. I mean, like for me, the half a bottle of wine is like where are we going next? Yeah. Well, it's, I hear you. But no, I'm done with clubs and shit, if that's what you're saying. But the problem is, I mean, bars can become a problem. You know, if you're out past 10 p.m. 11 p.m.

Nothing good is happening. It's not going to, it's not going to work. And I need to be. That's like a big thing in my mind, like a marker these days. And so anyway, yeah, this week I will be chilling out in New York. Don't even try. Don't even try. So last, so what will you, how will you eight o'clock tonight when?

I'm going to go see a friend. And she's an old friend and we're, I'll just catch up and I'll go back to the hotel. I got a big day tomorrow and Wednesday. I'm going to go see the Odyssey one night with another friend. I hopefully find a good theater to go do that. And I don't know. I'm going to enjoy figuring that out. You know, I've taken breaks here and there.

But I think it's like important, even if you're not, you know, even if you're drinking socially, like give yourself a break. Seven days, maybe, you know, here and there, a month, every month. I don't know. I don't know. Again, moving targets. No, you're being honest about it. And that's the thing I want to say to you, Shep, before we close is I, I talk to a lot of people. and I just appreciate your willingness to share this space with me.

I mean, this is a podcast where we have conversations with people from all walks of life, you know, and not just sharing space and your story with me, but like the world in this book. And I would imagine that the book kind of mirrors who you are, which is just real and raw and honest. Yeah. And look, I mean, talk about fate and free will and stuff. Like, I believe that I'm here right now because I just. should be here right now with you. Yeah.

Like, and this is important to me. This was been, this conversation will not leave me, you know? Yeah. So I think, I mean, man, I just think the universe does its thing. And I'm really trying to be in tune with the universe. And so, yeah, I appreciate for you to be a part of my destiny. Well, I'm here. I'm rooting for you.

And we'll do the cell phone thing and we'll stay in touch and just look. sobriety, recovery, all that bullshit, drinking aside, I think middle-aged men, just to be able to say out loud to one another, like the shit that we're thinking about life is important. Yeah, about our body changing. Dude, I don't lose my hair. Like, I joke about it, but it's true. Like, I'm like, I go to the weight room. I'm not as strong anymore. Like, I can't just, you used to be able to flip a switch.

Like, oh, summer's here. Let me get a six-pack. You know, like, that shit does not happen anymore. It's wild. It's wild. And aging is a thing that hits you like a ton of bricks. I can't see that well anymore, you know, like shit like that. And, you know, my parents are, you know, oh, they're, you know, new hip and all this stuff.

That's right around the corner. Gather ye rosebuds while ye may as Shakespeare said. Well, shit, man. Thanks for coming. Good luck the rest of the week. Thank you, Zach. Beautiful.