The Zac Clark Show - The Grief Expert: How Grief Affects Your Body, Honoring Your Grief, And Moving On Isn’t Letting Go

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Gina Moffa wants us to talk about grief. In this episode, we deep-dive into the world of healing and human connection, and trauma’s often-overlooked companion: grief.  Gina Moffa, LCSW, MA, is a licensed psychotherapist, mental health educator, and media consultant in New York City. After a succession of professional and personal losses, including her mother, Gina became inexplicably sick only to discover the profound physical toll her own grief was taking on her body. This deepened her goal to understand and normalize talking about death, grief, and the experience of loss.  Gina has dedicated her career to helping thousands navigate trauma and grief, including working with Holocaust survivors and serving as Clinical Director at the Addiction Institute of New York at Mt. Sinai-St. Luke’s Hospital Campus. She is also the author of "Moving On Doesn't Mean Letting Go: A Modern Guide to Navigating Loss,” which seeks to reframe the life-long journey of processing loss and death.   In this conversation, we discuss a wide range of topics, including: Our society’s fear of loss and death. Grieving authentically. The powerful physical impact of grief on our bodies. Is romantic heartbreak as painful as the death of a loved one? Why the grief experience may never end. Grief in the workplace – a compassionate revamping is necessary.  Grief’s various forms, from lost loved ones and pets to divorce, friendships and even addictive substances – each teaching us to navigate its unique and poignant path. Zac’s unexpected grief journey with ‘The Bachelorette.’  Gina's upcoming book, "That Bitch," which explores themes of loss in friendships, navigating grief, and cultivating greater compassion. Please join in and listen to this fascinating conversation about the uncomfortable yet profoundly universal experience of grief. Connect with Gina https://ginamoffa.com/ https://www.instagram.com/ginamoffalcsw/ Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right. So welcome back to the Zach Clark Show. I am so excited for today's conversation. We have with us, Gina, my friend Gina Mafa, who is a LCSW, a psychotherapist, an author. She just got back from her book tour. We'll start there. Moving on doesn't mean letting go. We're going to jump into that title and that book because I think we can all relate. Gina, thanks for being here. Thank you, Zach. Congratulations on this amazing show. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, we met probably a couple months ago at another friend of ours book launch, Brooke. In the elevator. Yes, in the elevator. And then we continued our conversation. Yeah. And I felt connected to you and more importantly, the work that you're doing. Thank you.

Thank you. Yeah, I think we don't talk enough about grief, but yet it's in everything we do. so thanks for having me here to talk about it yeah i mean can we start there like okay so you you you've done a lot right you've ran the addiction institute you've worked with people with substitutes disorders trauma but like why why grief like what's your story what has got you to this point why are you so motivated to help change the way we kind of think and talk about grief grief actually came into my life as you know as sort of a side hustle in a way it was the sister trauma. I was a certified trauma therapist for many years working with all sorts of different populations. And one of the things that I realized in running groups is that we never talked

about the grief and the loss and the things that we have to leave behind and the things that we lose along the way. And we talk about the before and the after, but we never honor what happened before. We never really honor the before. We're trying to get away from the before and onto new things. And so I started doing grief groups when I was working with Holocaust survivors back at the 92nd Street Y. And yet, to me, it sort of gained momentum

as time went on and went on working with trauma and working with groups at the Phoenix House and stuff like that. And I think when we got to the pandemic, it sort of became unstoppable because not only were we dealing with death-related losses, but finally other endings and other types of losses came to the forefront.

And my practice was blowing up with phone calls from people losing jobs, livelihood, apartments, you know, they were going through a divorce, a breakup, their pet died, you know, they lost, you know, a sense of safety, affection. You know, people were grieving affection. And so all of this grief came to the forefront, and we finally had a word and a time for it. And so for me, the momentum has just picked up. And now that we understand that grief is something that is a universal experience, It's what do we do with it? How do we understand it when it's our experience? And how do we navigate the complicated crevices of how it shows up in our life in different ways at different times? So it's really exciting to me to look at it in new ways. Yeah. No, I mean, I think obviously it's typically viewed as a pretty like negative word or there's a negative energy around it. It signifies loss.

And I know for me, a lot of my work is fueled by my personal. by my personal experience, right? And I share that and I share that in a way to try and be helpful. So for you was like once you started doing this work, did you kind of look at your own story and be like, oh, like I should probably look at this, this and this because there was some grief there

or had you already kind of done the work? I don't know that we're ever done with the work. I think, you know, even for me when I lost my mom, I was a grief therapist, a grief and trauma therapist. And I still... When was that? Can I ask? So that was seven years ago. Okay.

And I got really sick. after. And, you know, all in a week, I lost sort of like, I don't know if you remember Phoenix House closed down their Manhattan location. And so I lost my job there. And my apartment building was sold. I lost my mom. This all happened between Monday and Friday. And I was kind of like, oh, okay, I know nothing about grief because I wound up getting really sick. And so physically sick. And wound up in the ER with pancreatitis, wound up having thyroid issues. And it was because I really didn't understand what was happening to my body. Grief is a huge stressor. It's probably one of the biggest life stressors we have. And yet it erupts all of

these immune system responses. And there's so many things in our body. We have 12 systems in our body and we don't think of the way in which a huge life stressors, such as loss, of any kind that's significant to us, will really affect our bodies. So it really dawned on me like, wow, I don't know anything about grief if I don't understand that it is a full body experience and it will affect me as such. So I really kind of got a taste of my own medicine and my own teaching. Yeah, I mean, I can't. So a week before this, you have a job, your apartment's in good standing and your mom while maybe she's sick or struggling is still with us. And then a week later, these events happen and you, I mean, I just, so what in it, like with the physical illness,

I'm very fascinated by that. What ended up happening? What did the doctor say this is a result of your grief? Or did that the light bulb go off? It didn't go off until I went back to my general practitioner. And I was talking to him about this. Like, what is pancreatitis? Like, how would I get something like this?

You know, and I was like, you know, I've been really stressed out. Could it be a stress response to something? And he's like, when did your mom die? And I was like, you know, a few weeks ago or whatever. And at that point. And he's like, no, couldn't be that. And that was the light-bold moment where I was like, oh, actually, I think it is that. And it's not just grief.

It's the reaction in my body based on the loss. And so it dawned on me, number one, that the healthcare community had no idea how to treat grief, how to understand grief, and how to look at grief as a full-body experience, and actually not really understand a whole lot about the mind-body experience in and of itself. So it was because my doctor said, like, no, it's not grief. And no, it can't be related to the loss of your mom that reminded me that it actually was. Right. And so that sort of began a whole new set of research for me about how grief really affects our bodies. So is it fair to assume, I'm going to stay with this for a minute, that you had a good relationship with your mother?

Yes. Okay. I do too. I like I could get emotional thinking about like my mom and, you know, this day that is eventually, like we can't avoid the grave, right? I'm going to lose my mother at some point. And it's heavy to think about that. And I've been reflecting a lot recently just about my parents who are both, I'm lucky they're still alive and I get to spend time with them

and I'm going to go see them this weekend. Is there something we can do as human beings to prepare for that moment? Because I'm really hard at myself. I need to spend as much time with my mother because she's done so much for me and I love her so much. And I'm lucky to have this relationship. Yeah. But I'm thinking about you, like, years and years and years of memories and connection

and like this beautiful mother-daughter relationship, then all of a sudden it's over. And I just, maybe it's a selfish question, but can you prepare for grief? Well, my question is, is it over? Or do I carry her on in other ways? Yeah. You know, and so do we internalize our relationship? My mom's always working. She's not resting on the other side.

She's with me all the time. I'm like, Mom, we got another book to write. We've got things to do. chop chop um what was her name rose rose so um poor thing she's always working but yeah i mean to answer your question can we prepare for it sure i could give you the answer of like have conversations about it you know have conversations on wishes and you know think about ways in which you would carry your parents forward how do we honor them if you love them you know the way that you're talking about them it sounds to me like you would do something that would honor them but first and

foremost is really to cherish the time, you know, cherish the time. And it's something that we don't think enough and talk enough about is making meaning before we lose people. How do we have meaningful relationships in our lives now? How do we create more meaning and more memories with the people who are alive that have our entire hearts, you know? And also to talk about death is really important in families. We don't do that either because in the West,

so afraid of it. You know, you called it negative. I call it life. And, you know, it's sort of a fact of life that we will lose. We will lose things and people and pets and places and memories and things that are important to us all the time. You know, just every day we're losing something in some way that we don't want to acknowledge or talk about because we're so afraid of the idea of loss. Yeah. But I think talking about it takes some of that stigma out. You know, hey, you know, what would you want, like, you know, at the end of life or, you know, and I'm not saying you should have that conversation now, but I think that there's a time. My mom would lose her.

I know. But that's common, actually, right? A lot of people don't want to talk about it. My mom was, like, weeks from death and she didn't want to talk about it. Because I see these memes, like, God bless social media, right? And it's like, I interviewed 100 people on their deathbed, you know, and they all said, like, X, Y, Z, like, more time with family, more time with friends. more time with people they love like less time working less time worrying less time like

thinking about the things that really don't matter it's easy for them to say in that moment but for me sitting here it's like oh man like how do i how do i make space in my life to honor these relationships that are here and present right now i think making space is actually just that calling like it doesn't have to be in person it's about the connection right there are people i see all the time that I feel less connected to than the people that I speak to on the phone who are far away that I don't get a chance to talk to that often. So it's really

about the connection that we create with that person. It's never been easier, right? I mean, FaceTime and calls and texts and so. No, I mean, you're making me think, this is bringing me back. I remember in my childhood home at 10, 11, 12 years old,

my parents would put me to sleep and the thought that I would fall asleep with it, and this is so vivid, right now is that I wanted to live until I was 35 and die so that I wouldn't have to experience my parents dying. Yeah. Like that, and that was like a thought I had many nights when I, because I was so terrified of losing these people.

Yeah. Because you came from them. You are tethered to them. Your mother's your mothership, literally. Yeah. You know, that's, that's probably one of the more common things I hear in my life. my practice is people who wanted to do whatever they could to die first, even though that's not the order of things, just so that they didn't have to bear the agony of losing people that

brought them here. And it's hard. Yeah. It is hard. The other thing that's coming up for me right now is love, right? Like they say sometimes a breakup is harder than death because that person is still here with us on the planet, yet you've lost them completely. you most likely are going to have zero relationship with them. So how much of your work or how much are people coming in to do work with you on grief where it's a romantic relationship or a love relationship that they've lost? A lot, actually, and especially post-pandemic. So I'll have people come in and say, you know, I lost my father, I lost my brother,

but this breakup feels so much worse. I feel like I've lost a limb. And the truth is that there's no real difference between a breakup via death or a loss via death. It is really just the way our brain and our nervous system handles it. And so it really is like we're not going to tell our brain like you've gone through something that's less, you know, important, you know, than the loss of your mother. It doesn't work like that. It's more about the attachment and it's about the connection. And what makes break up so much harder is that it's an ambiguous loss,

which means there's no real closure sometimes. You may see that person on social media or down the street, and you know that they've gone on and they're living this life again and without you. And there's something that is really, really more painful in a lot of ways to people who go through that kind of breakup because there's that loss without the ending, really. it's terrifying yeah it's terrifying and that's where i like i hold on to this hope that like it'll work out someday or we'll both change or we'll reek you know and like the truth is at least in my experience in a romantic like it doesn't necessarily mean

like two good people don't necessarily mean a good couple yeah and that's something that i've had to learn the hardest way because when you do love and i feel like i've experienced love and in my life in the romantic kind of framework, we're taught that love is hopefully forever, right? Like you're working towards this end game of getting married and having children and like this circle of life thing. And when that's taken away from you, at least for me, you know, it's like how do I wake up tomorrow?

I think, you know, I love that simplified way of looking at it because it's sort of ideal. Right? I love it. It makes me want to believe in love like that. And then the reality is, as a therapist, you hear stories about how sometimes people change and they forget to tell each other. And, you know, all of this stuff happens that are, you know, because there's two individuals still living life and traversing internal stuff and mental, you know, mental health challenges and history. And we're complicated and clumsy and messy and we change and we grow. And sometimes we don't grow in the same. direction and it's so painful it's so painful and so hard and I identify with that and yet you know having some space between our losses you know between now and maybe our losses you growing I guess the question is is it ever really bad then no I mean I I'd like to think that my therapist tells me right All of these experiences are making me a better partner for the next person that I'm going to spend time with. Where I might be jaded is that, you know, this whole idea that I walk around with that nothing lasts forever.

You know, maybe that's part of my grief, right? And it's not just romantic, but friendships and all these relationships that you lose over time. You know, you want to see the best in people and then something happens. And you're like, whoa. Yeah. Can I ask you, so this is not related to your personal life at all, but as a therapist and someone that sees a lot, like, do you believe in marriage? Do you believe in long-term love? Like, is that a thing that you believe in?

I believe in long-term love and marriage for people that it works for. I think that there are couples where I look at them and I'm like, imagine them with anyone else. They just work. And then, you know, I have to look at people and say, well, what are the reasons that you get married? And people get married for all sorts of reasons and people couple up for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with love and a lot to do with fear. And so I think it really does depend on the why and the histories. And, you know, our own ability to be honest with ourselves is probably a good individual. indicator of success. You know, communication, as they say, is like one thing, but how honest

am I with myself? That's going to come first and foremost. So that was a political answer, but I think, you know, I don't know. Yeah, let's do the non-political answer. I don't not believe in marriage or long-term relationship at all. I think that it's beautiful and healthy and wonderful for the people it works for. And I believe that there are people who are better single and are healthier or are their best versions as themselves. That gives me hope. I think it's really individual, but I think that whatever works is kind of where the wisdom is, right?

And I think we can't be afraid of being single or being on our own or unpartnered for fear that there's societal judgment or pressure or any of that. I think there's so many people out there who are thriving and living to their best and highest potential doing good in the world. receiving and return in different ways while redefine what love looks like. You know, redefining what fulfillment and meaning looks like. And I think we have to honor that, that it comes in all different ways. And it's not always just in partnership. Yeah, it's a lot to think about. And I think society is, I mean, especially like we're here in

New York City. So I feel like this city is very progressive and open-minded. And in anywhere in the planet you can kind of make your own choices and live the life that you want to live. It's here because you will find your community and you will find your people and you will find shared experience, which is so valuable. You know, like I'm a 40-year-old guy. Like I don't have kids. I don't have a family. Like my parents at 40 years old, you know, we're like well on their way to like building this life that they thought.

And I will say that my parents have really been, I mean, my mom like breaks my balls. a little bit about not having kids, but like, for the most part, they've done a really good job of being supportive. And I don't think that's always the case with parents and family systems. It's like there's just pressure to kind of conform to what we're supposed to be. All the time. And I do believe that we're getting better at allowing ourselves to figure it out a little bit later in life. I think that, you know, society is just different. finances are different the state of the world is terrifying and different and you know life is moving so much faster and I just think we do live in a really different world than our parents did

where you could be you know a shoe salesman and buy a five-bedroom house and you know that was sort of your goal was to have kids and own a home and you know life is different now a lot different in so many ways yeah yeah there's a couple different ways I guess where I'm going to go now is like I've been encouraged by the world and I love I love what you do on social media because I feel like it it gives people permission to be curious about their grief it's it's very empowering and it's a different angle than most people take I think it's like let's change this conversation which I love like I love being the outlier so keep up what you're doing and I've been encouraged as as a consumer and someone that actually gives a shit about behavioral health care and like the world at large that there are people out there talking about mental health and trauma and grief and some of these kind of buzz words

is there a part of the world where you think we might talk about it too much or and the reason I say that is like what's trauma and what's just life what's grief and what's just like man I had a bad day And I don't need to like latch on to this diagnosis just because I didn't get the job that I wanted to get. Do you understand what I'm saying? It's like this.

So what I'm hearing is that they're the buzzwords. Yes. When is something legit and when is it a buzzword? And I think that that's actually a really hard thing to answer because everybody's nervous system is really an indicator of what is traumatizing and what is not. And so, you know, I'll hear a lot with my colleagues, like, that wasn't a traumatic loss. And I'm like, but really, can we actually judge the way that this person's nervous system has responded to this loss? You know, we don't know their history of mental health. We don't know their history of anxiety and adrenaline in their body.

We don't know their history of losses in their life. You know, we don't know what type of loss it is, you know, in this way to their body. And we just don't know their history. And I think the thing that we don't ask enough questions is what happened before. Because if I'm judging your response just on right now, then I don't have any understanding of mental health whatsoever. Because our responses, a lot of the time, are coming from imprints that have happened before, things that our brain remembers. And it doesn't know the difference between what is happening right now and what has happened before in terms of the details. And so it's really important that we investigate before we judge.

So, yeah, can I say there's buzzwords out there? Sure. And it's really important to say, like, what happened before that? I wonder what their life has been like. I wonder what their mental health challenges are. When it comes to grief, it's really important that we don't judge it because people already stigmatize grief, society, our health care system, our policies, bereavement leave, you don't even get to choose what your priority is in terms of

who's more important to you. Like your job will say if it's immediate family, you get three to five days. If it's, you know, a dog, you get nothing. If it's your best friend you grew up with since you're one years old, it's technically like, who knows, that's the gray area, but probably three, probably one to three days, you know. And it's really hard because our entire. society is predicated upon capitalism and hurrying up and pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps and keeping it moving and doing what we can to do five easy steps to get better.

But grief is not like that. Grief is with us forever. It is with us indefinitely. We'll notice it on anniversaries and days of meaning and holidays and we will just miss the things or the circumstances or the people and that will always be with us because it is in our bodies. And so I don't think we could, first of all, And I want to just go back for a second to say that grief is finally having its time.

Thanks to you. No. Grief is finally getting the attention in Hollywood and TV shows and society that we've been fighting for for so many years. And so for me, I'm just excited that it's getting its time. You know, we had anxiety and depression. Then we had PTSD. And now we have grief. And what I love about that is that it means that, number one, more people will reach out for help.

More people will understand their experiences. More people will not be afraid to ask for help or to join communities. Unless people will judge other people for being in a state of grief for what they deem too long. And so to me, this is like a win. Like, let's talk about it. Let's make it buzzwords. Like, let's just give people the support that they need because people who are grieving most of the time and more of the time are doing it in isolation and loneliness. and it's really, really hard.

So, yes, more please. Yeah. Yeah, because they probably don't think it matters to other people. Because for a long time, we have stigmatized it, and it's like, you know, growing up for me, it's like put your mouthpiece in and get back out there. You know, like, wipe the dirt off your face and suck it up. Yeah.

You know, I always give this example when I'm kind of like working, working with people in early recovery or like we're I'm highly sensitive like I'll speak for myself so it's like in the course of a week I could lose someone or there could be an overdose death like something very traumatic and hard and and and that no one wants to deal with and be okay to show up there and and grieve that and do that but then it's like I'll get the text message from the girl or the person that I didn't want to receive and I'll like I'll latch onto that because it's just not the that was actually the

thing that I would like feel the most because it's some type of old idea I have about this relationship and so it's like the big things almost sometimes for me are easier to deal with than like these little kind of like things that I'm hypersensitive to and a lot of times that's in these like relationships right like it's just

yeah relationships are hard and I think we're always trying to mind read And we're always trying to navigate in ways to not hurt ourselves or to not experience loss in some way. I mean, I want to say that we're actually as human beings, and this is across the board in relationship and otherwise doing whatever we can as humans to avoid loss in every part of our life, including our life. And so it makes sense that we don't want to see that or that we're more sensitive to that because it makes us question everything that we are and what else could we lose. and so for you personally in your life now that how are you practicing what you preach how are you when you have a loss you experience and you have these beautiful things and like

you're giving advice to a lot of people but when it's actually you like how are you what is your process i think that i am so much better about practicing what i preach now when it comes to grief and I'm pretty honest about it on social media, like anniversaries or holidays are hard. And, you know, my mom really loved Christmas. It is probably the hardest day of the year for me, and I will do whatever I can to avoid it sometimes and go away and leave the country and go as far away as I can

because I'm scared of the hurt, right? And yet, while I'm far away, I'm thinking of my mom and I'm thinking of the hurt and I'm feeling what I have to feel. So it's like you really never outrun the pain and the grief and the heartache and the missing. But yeah, I think that it's important. You know, I wrote a book that shared some of my own story in it because I want people to know, like, I don't want to just be some authority because I trained and I'm a therapist 20 years.

It's like I also get it. I've had a lot of different types of losses in my life and each of them were really different. But losing my mom was the most significant and life-altering for me. And I'm pretty honest about the days that it feels shit. Yeah. Because those are coming up. You don't just like feel what you feel and then you move on, not with grief. It comes up in these like really strange ways, you know, shopping down the cereal aisle

or, you know, listening to a song that comes on on the radio. It's a lot like heartbreak in this way. You know, it can come up in the split moment. And then you're like, whoa. Like, I thought I was okay. I thought I was doing better, but I just saw someone who looked like them across the street or I just accidentally heard a voicemail or it could be anything. And your brain will remember these moments and you will be thrust back into a really big grief wave

and experience of loss. And so it's really important that we acknowledge and honor those moments and be tender and gentle with ourselves and not judge it. But yeah, I have to do that too. It's hard. Yeah, I mean, like the phone alone, they have these like memories. If you have an iPhone, like the memories come up and the pictures. I'm like, I don't want to see that.

Like that I don't want to see that picture from 2015. Like no. Like I want to like get away from it as as quickly as possible. In that moment, what would you suggest one of your patients or clients would do? Like, okay, I see this picture. It doesn't feel good. It brings something up. I go back to that moment.

I go back to the way I was feeling. in that relationship or in whatever was going on. Yeah. I actually have a whole chapter that talks about this. Bring it on. But it's like, you know, because we don't talk about social media and grief. And even if it is just a breakup,

the things you don't want to see. And I don't say just a breakup because it's like very hard. But even with breakups, you know, you don't want to see the things that remind you of better times too. And yet, you know, when I see a memory come up with my mother, it's like getting stabbed in the heart and also getting hugged because to me I look at it as a moment

where I can reconnect with her. I send her a silent like I love you, I miss you, and then I try to keep it going and be really tender with myself. I'll usually follow that up by like, please have a glass of water, get up, look out the window, call a friend, you know, do something that feels like it's tending to something that comes up for you or take a walk, you know? I felt that earlier this week and I got up and went to Central Park and just looked at the trees and just was present with my feelings. Just acknowledging that it's going to happen is important. Also, though, social media can be brutal. And so for me, I like to look at my memories and then lock them. So I don't even get them anymore. I like turned off the memories notification because I can't

do it. And so knowing what you can and can't do is really important. And I think even though Facebook can be antiquated and old to sort of navigate, I think it's okay for you to turn off the notifications that will hurt you in some way and protect yourself. And it's okay to do that. Like you don't have to confront yourself. But if you do, be really gentle about it and take very good care of your body after because that stress will manifest quickly. Right. Yeah, I mean, so much of that from me and social media is taking care of yourself, right? Like someone recently introduced me to this idea that you can mute people on social media. So, So, you know, I won't everyone to like me, right?

So I don't want to go, like, unfollowing people and have people know that I'm, like, on this unfollow grade. I'm going to find out. Yeah. You're not muted and I follow you, okay, Gina. But it's just been so helpful to do that in certain situations. And it's not because I don't like the other person. It's protecting me. Yeah.

Like, every time I see that person, it's bringing something up that I don't like the way that feels. And so in my own work, like giving myself permission to do something that's actually going to protect me in the way that I feel on a daily basis. Yeah. And also it reminds you of a disconnect. Right. So then it's important to find a way to reconnect again to yourself and to an idea or a feeling of love. Yeah. Because it's hard. So moving on doesn't mean letting go. Yes. It's a long title. It's a great title. What, when you think about Greece, and like some of the misconceptions like where did the title come from of the book the title was actually just born out of my being really annoyed with people because I was really annoyed

I have I have a lot of clients that will come in and they're like they told me I just have to move on like we just have to move on I'm here in therapy to just move on I'm here so you can help me let go and I'm like let go of what do you want to let go of a loving relationship that you had with your mother like what are we letting go of like let's look at this really differently. And, you know, and people say that to me all the time, like, you're always talking about your mom or you're posting about your mom. Like, you got to move on. And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about, actually, because grief you don't move on. You move forward with. And so I, you know, I was in some kind of argument with someone who was trying to say like,

but no, you actually have to let go. And I was like, no, because moving on doesn't mean letting go. It doesn't. We assume that. But we take relationships with us. We take the good parts of things, even in a treacherous relationship that ends in, you know, flames and crashing, you still take something of that person in that relationship with you. And we don't, we're not humans who can just become robots, even though we want to sometimes. Yeah. You know, there's like eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. Remember where they erased each other from their minds, but really they couldn't. At the end of the day, I don't know if you saw that movie, but it's, it's quirky and beautiful because it's the human.

condition that even when we want to forget people, people come with us. And so it really is about the honoring that we don't have to just move on. And we're not, we're not, there's nothing wrong with us that we want to keep people with us and keep memories alive. And we want to grieve for as long as we do. It just will change. And grief doesn't look the same 10 years later that it does in the very beginning. And so people don't recognize that. And they get really impatient with people very quickly. So it's unfortunate, but I'm hoping that will change. No, I mean, I have a friend going through a breakup right now, and I've now, in my life, experienced, you know, several breakups naturally, right? And telling him to let go would probably

be the worst advice I could give him, right? It's like, dude, feel it. It's okay. I understand this is hard. Yeah. You know, in the long run, this might be for the best. We don't know right now. just allowing him to have his experience with however he's feeling and for me like I'm just sitting here talking to you and thinking about how many therapists out there probably are like clocking in clocking out and doing the bullshit just let go thing I mean that's you know for us is like people that do this work I mean that's scary yeah I talked to someone recently and they came to me and they were like my last therapist told me that I was feeling sorry for myself and I was like oh like you never want to crap on fellow therapists, but like, what's going on? It's okay, you know.

It's okay to feel bad. Yeah. And it's okay to feel sad and to be in that, like, that dark abyss and that sticky tarpit for as long as we are, right? It's, it's, if we're isolated and we're isolating ourselves, if we have no more friends left, you know, at any point, then maybe we get help. But like, you know, to have that sense of judgment and to have that judgment when somebody's already suffering is really hard. So, no, don't do it. And so shifting gears, your career started kind of in the substance abuse space, which is where I spent a lot of my time, worked at Phoenix House, worked at the Addiction

Institute. And so there's this whole idea in our world around someone who has a substance use disorder, someone who is a drug addict, right, losing their best friend, which is the drugs and the alcohol. Yeah. How can you explain that grief? What does that mean? What does that look like in your experience working with that population?

I think it's like, I think that it is really taboo for a lot of people to look at substances as friends. And I think we're now in that place where we can say, like, that's not the problem. It was the feelings that led us there, right? We understand that now. But I think at the end of the day, to grieve something that gave you pleasure or that took away your pain is okay. And why is it not? Why is that not okay? It's just the matter of the idea that that's not the only thing you're grieving. So we can grieve the fact that you don't have this thing

that helped you get through something hard. Now we can grieve the thing that you actually had to grieve to begin with. So it's not simple. The work isn't simple and it's very layered. And I think that, you know, especially with substance use, it's probably one of the more layered and nuanced type of grief experience that there can be, because there's people involved, too. And there's different personas that we had and fears. And there's a lot more to grieve than kind of a straightforward breakup or a death-related loss. And that's what makes it so much more complicated. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting, even for people that maybe don't have an addictive

personality, don't have a substance use disorder, what happens when you go to a funeral? People are drinking more than they typically drink because they don't want to feel. They don't want to actually feel what is going on. They just lost someone very important to them. Yeah. And so what are they going to do? They're going to go to the bar and shove those feelings down. And who knows when they might come up later in life, right?

I mean, is that an example of someone grieving in a way that might not be helpful? Absolutely unhelpful. I think it's okay to have distraction, and I think it's okay to have a moment where you feel too much and you need something. I think that the choices that you make when you're in that state of too much are going to make or break your grief experience and create more problems. So I think, you know, there has to be the question is, yes, I want to numb. Is this the right thing to numb with? or can I go to Dairy Queen and get a blizzard? Or can I call, you know, there are other choices that can be considered numbing,

but that don't hit a place where it will cause other problems and be, like, actually considerably self-destructive. What do you do for someone that is struggling with grief? Like, for me, I was at a funeral last week, and it was someone who unfortunately died young. It was a standing room only, and the family, I just couldn't believe how strong they were. you know, in eulogizing this person and, I mean, it was heavy, but I was so proud of the family for kind of like doing this in a way that was so respectful.

And I just, I couldn't help but think, like, yeah, but how are they going to feel in three months? How are they going to feel in six months and nine months? When this room is not full of people they love and they're kind of like all alone, is that where if you're trying to support that person, you should reach out. You should always reach out and you should not stop reaching out. So I'll start there, but also to say that just because what appears to be they're holding up and they're respectful doesn't mean that that's actually how they feel or what's going on behind the scenes. I think people grieve so differently. You know, even at my own mother's funeral, like people wouldn't think that I was as devastated as I was because I had things to do.

And my brain compartmentalized the pain and I just did what I needed to do to honor my mom and as good away and as loving away as I could. But because of that, people thought, you're fine, you're doing okay. You must have gotten used to this. Like, you know, you had a little time to get used to her dying. And I'm like, you never get used to someone dying. So no matter what people look like in their grief, I can guarantee that X amount of time down the road, they're still going to be grieving. And they're still going to be feeling things. And so I always tell people, remember if you can, the date, the death anniversary, or the date of meaning for your friend or your friend.

or someone you love and put that in your phone in a calendar reminder so that you can reach out, send them flowers, like ask them if they want to have dinner or deliver them something. Do something that is supportive to them every year. Yeah. Just so that they know that you continue to remember that they went through something life-changing and painful. But yeah, three months down the road, they're still grieving. Please show up.

Even just check in. I love that. So I'm a new therapy. I'm a new patient in your office, and I've come to you. No, we're not going to do the whole psychodrama. But I think for the listeners here, like, one of the things I'm trying to do with this podcast and with these conversations is just not stick so much in the problem, right? And I've already heard from you some awesome things we can do with grief.

Like, drink a glass of water, stand up, go look out the window, and go for a walk. Like three or four really basic things that actually make a difference, right? So assuming that I've gotten to the point where I'm actually going to dig in and do some therapy, the thing that's fascinating to me is like in, and this is my understanding I want to hear from the expert obviously like in EMDR or trauma therapy a lot of times, you're like you're almost reliving this experience, right? Like that's where you get to. You do this work to build up to this moment where you kind of like go back to that death

or you go back to that whatever it was that happened. And so can you go inside the mind or the brain or the work or your studies and say why do we, it feels counterintuitive, but maybe that's how you grieve. I don't know. Does that make sense? I'm just waiting for the question. Well, like, where are you starting with that? Where are you starting with me?

I'm coming in. Hey, I just, my dad just died. And I'm not like six months ago and I'm not, I haven't gotten past this traumatic event. Like, what is that? Where are you starting the therapeutic process with someone like that? Well, first of all, I think I would probably still assume you're in fresh grief. And so we are going to focus first and foremost on how you're taking care of your body, what your habits are.

Are you drinking too much? Are you self-medicating in some way? Are you isolating? Are you eating enough, drinking enough water, getting outside, moving your body, resting your body, connecting with people? this to me is sort of the basic tenets of fresh grief care and it seems silly and it seems basic but I will tell you what when someone is in the real throes of a loss even a traumatic loss you will be so disconnected from your body you will not remember your name or where you live

sometimes you will not remember dates you will not remember if you ate dinner you will have no appetite you will have no ability to sleep or you may be sleeping too much you may not know what your plans are or how to do your work anymore. And so this is a really important thing to understand is that it is an experience that will totally take you over. And so when you're in a state of fresh grief like this, that sort of first basic tenets that I've given you is going to be where I sort of continue with you for a moment. Because you and I don't know each other that well. So I'm not going to try to ask you about your biggest, darkest, deepest, you know, pain and feeling. I want to make sure that you're safe. And I want your body to feel safe because grief

is something that takes us out of safety. Something we love is gone. That can happen again at any moment and it will. And the question is when and how will we get through that? That is what your brain and body is doing. Our brains and our nervous system, our brain specifically, is created for one job to keep us alive. And so when we go through a significant law, What's really important to understand is that it's going to be like, oh my God, I really need things to be predictable. When they're not predictable, I'm going to be completely unhinged and unregulated, and I'm going to figure out how we can find safety. That smoke alarm is going off.

And with grief, what you're going to have to do is, especially in the beginning, bear with me. I'm with you. I feel safe. Oh, good. Yay. We're working on it, though. It's a journey. You know, your brain is now used to this predictable person in this place, right, and now they're not there.

So your brain has got to be like, okay, now they're not in this place, and we have to do two things at the same time. We have to detach from understanding that they're in this predictable place, and we have to find a way to reattach to them in this random space in time, right? Because we know they're somewhere. We don't just forget. They're not just out of our brain. So we have to simultaneously detach and attach at the same time while also knowing they're no longer where they were. And that sounds like a wild ride, right?

And it sounds like, oh, that's fine. Your brain just has to do this. But it's doing this while it also has to send signals to every other system in your body, that it's going to like make it or not. And so when you come to me and you're in the first few months of loss, that's what's happening to your body. I'm not going to be like, let's explore,

all of the trauma that you've had before or your relationship with your person it's going to be like let's stabilize you and let's see how you're taking care of yourself and let's get you safe and then we can go and explore a lot of these other things but if it's a traumatic loss like you just told me

it was before we got to get you stable and your nervous system regulated and if we don't do that you're fucked we're not getting into the feelings you will be you will not be able to actually metabolize them so that's what we would do okay yay you passed

I'm in so I mean I'm gonna use it I'm gonna actually use an exam like something's coming up for me and I want to I don't talk about this a lot and I think it's I'd like your perspective on it cool so

four years ago I went on TV right I had this opportunity I went on reality television there was like up until that moment in my life at 36 years old I had my crew my friends my family the people that I trusted felt safe with and knew had my back no matter what at least I believe that I come off of this experience and I like reintegrate back into the world and 80% of those people treat me the same show up the same for me are just my friends that they've been for my

entire life my family that they've been for the other life and then the other 20% had this idea of who I am now and it almost feels like they want something from me or this experience that I had they're going to be able to tag along and come for some kind of like ride which just isn't the truth and in that moment all I really wanted was like those safe relationships and when those started to be questioned by me, I like shut down. And the other thing that was going on is that people assumed because they're watching me on Good Morning America and they're seeing, you know, like they're seeing me out in the world, they're making assumptions about

how busy I am. So all of a sudden no one's reaching out to me because Zach's so busy. Right? And I get it. Like I could have been the instigator. I could have reached out. I own my part in that. But I feel like I had to grieve some relationships and some friendships that weren't serving me.

And it was really hard and confusing because I feel like I didn't change. Like I actually took it pretty seriously that I was going to hold these sacred relationships really close to me. And when those were challenged, like it threw me for a loop. And it was one of the biggest struggles I had coming off of this reality television. experience like and I don't know if I've dealt with it yet like fully yeah that sounds hard and what it sounds to me too is that there's a battle between reality and perception right because you can say I didn't change and they can say I've perceived change and so we've got two people who don't face the same reality and so that sense of loneliness feels to you like you've been

abandoned and that you've been like ditched and then the question is is like why how why do we have the people in our lives that we have in our lives right it's sort of the same with romantic relationships that I said before is that we're in relationships for all different sorts of reasons so that 20% I would almost want to ask like well who were they to you why were you friends with them to begin with yeah what what did they represent in your life and more importantly what did you represent to them that they could use a perception of you to end a friendship or to end any relationship and cut it off because their perception is that you changed and you abandoned them and your perception is that you didn't change and they abandoned you and when

we're not facing the same reality everybody is grieving something but then we sort of look at like well who were they to me then if this perception can be so quickly you know the created, then what? Yeah. But at the end of the day, it is hard. And that friendship, I'm writing a book on just this. That was my, we were going to that bitch next, so. Yeah, thank you.

I love it. No, but it is, you know, friendship loss, I want to say, is, is the most painful type of loss, I think, in a lot of ways, because there's an intimacy and there's an expectation of the foreverness of it. You know, we don't go into friendships expecting it to be like just five, minutes or just for the summer. It's like we think that we found our people and there's a quicker intimacy because we trust them in different ways. And so I don't know what your relationship was with this 20%, but, you know, I would wonder how much of each other you showed

and how honestly you connected through those years. I mean, I've struggled with. I mean, I actually believe that friendship loss is harder than romantic loss for me personally. Yeah. Because of that contract I have with that person that we are going to have each other's back no matter what when I lost that or I felt like I lost that or that was being challenged it really made me question

not just them but all my relationships and it was almost brought on this paranoia that was extremely scary and did it make you at all and this is not a an assumption but does this make you question you of course in your sense of worth or accepted

I mean like yes and I had the thought of okay how did I show up in this maybe are they right do I need to just tell them that hey I have changed my life has changed and if I haven't shown up you as a friend the way that you would have liked for me to show up I'd like to have that conversation did you ever say that I probably thought it I mean yes in some of these in some instances yes I did like I took the high road in my opinion and did that and it went one or two ways it was like helpful and the relationship was maybe mended or it was kind of like received as like I told you so and at that point the relationship's really over in my eyes yeah and I think at that point there's a grief period that does come but there's another way of looking at it like we forget

that we also can look at it like we had a really good run with people and that you know it was and this is something I'm sort of struggling with to understanding as I even say it right now is that honoring the time we have with people is not something that we do we honor the pain and we look at the ending and we look at what's left behind but we don't always look at the fact that we also had a good run with people and we did care and we had a close connection and like it's okay to honor that too at the same time and yeah and I'm still working that through even as I talked to you about that just that new idea of of it being so one or the other and so absolute but the idea that maybe it's okay that people don't follow us on our journey

yeah and and can we then if that is the case honor the time we had with them as opposed to being hurt and paranoid. And it's hard. It is hard. And I think for me, where I've gotten with it is in all my relationships, I can only control what I can control, right? There are going to be times when I hurt that individual, and there are going to be times when that individual hurts me.

When those come up, are we willing to get together and have an honest conversation about how we move forward? And if we're not, that's okay. And then that's where we probably go into this idea of honoring this time that I got to spend with that human. being in this life. Yeah. But the hope is always that you can work through it.

I know. The hope is that you can work through it because there is so much that can happen in a relationship when we get from rupture to repair. There just is. Like there's such a deepness that can come from talking more honestly and vulnerably about everything that we're feeling and experiencing all the assumptions that we have.

But so many people let their ego get in the way and their pride. And, you know, and that is, something that we can't change with some people, like the self-awareness and self-accountability is not across the board. Yeah, I think it's particularly hard for guys, too, just because for me, I, you know, I've had this experience where I'm sober, I'm in therapy, I've, like, done a lot of self-work, so I'm not afraid of those conversations. But if I bring these conversations to a lot of my friends, they're going to receive it, but they might not receive it in a way that's helpful or truly open-minded, right? To, to, like, what's going on?

here yeah well you know that saying people can only meet us as deeply as they've met themselves wow and and I don't know that saying but Matt con created that saying and it is something I live by you know when I have any kind of misunderstanding with people or I just want someone to change and understand me and I'm like okay they can only meet me as deeply as they've met themselves if they don't do the work and they don't have any self-awareness and they don't want it they're not going to be able to understand me where I am. And that is where the line is drawn. So, but if you know that in a relationship, what do you do? Going back to them and saying,

hey, dude, you need to do some work on yourself before we can kind of continue that. That's not going to work. No, it does have to do with some radical acceptance on our end. It's acceptance, right? At the end of the day, it always comes back to acceptance for me. It is. And the idea that, you know, what do I, what do I need from this person that I can't get from some other place? Can I accept what they have to give me in the way that they do because I know it's honest and I know that they actually care. They just can't give me what I need, but can I get that from other places and can I accept what they're giving me as their very best, even if it's not my best? And if I can't and I find that I'll grow resentful, then I should figure out how to sort

of back away or have a conversation with them about my needs. But I think a lot of the times we don't have a lot of patience for people and we want what we want out of them. And we want to feel a certain way in relationship. And if we don't feel that way, we want out or we want it to change. But I think people are at all different paces of life and self-development, if at all, developing. But, I mean, I've been left with some family members where I'm like, oh, boy, what do I do with this? When you're expected to love them because they're family. Yes, you are.

And that's that word. that expectation, which, you know, that whole, like, the under promise over-deliver, like this whole thing that we have in the world around expectations is scary because I might expect something new out of our relationship and you might expect something from me. And if we're not on the same wavelength, like, to use your word, we're fucked. I created it. Yeah. So on a just, on like a bigger scale.

I hate to keep cursing but like when you look at the what's the most fucked up thing right now in the world like what is the thing that if you could like Gina Moffa had her magic wand and could say like I mean to me it's the divisiveness

of this world right now we I think since 2016 I'm just saying and I'm not going to get political but the idea that we can't agree on anything and we have politicized everything we've politicized masks and sports teams and I mean we're at a place where I used to say like oh it's just like if we can just get to the facts then everyone will see things the same and we'll have peace again but we're at a place where not only do we not agree on the facts but we can't

even agree on what a fact is what is a definition of a fact people don't even know that anymore we can't even agree on that and so for me I just feel like oh boy I feel really about our future as a society and where we go from here because there's so much collective grief happening and it just keeps happening in families and communities and over ideas and facts that are not facts. And so, yeah, if I had a magic wand, it would be that we could all get back to facts and humanity and, you know, not taking sides but actually believing that everybody should be alive and healthy and safe and yeah and and and I'm going to just keep saying that you know that everyone should have the same basic human rights to food, water, shelter, mental health care,

land. Yeah, I mean, the word safe for me makes sense and like I'm, my bar is so low. Even if you say politically, like when people ask me, I just want to be safe. I just want to be safe. And there are times when I walk around New York City and I don't feel safe. And that's how I'm feeling today, how are our kids going to feel in 20 years if we don't make radical change soon. Yeah. Well, if you don't feel safe as a man.

Right. I hear you. I hear you. I see you. Okay. Yeah. I'm like, if you don't feel safe. Then I don't know.

Then there's no hope. Yeah. Well, I'm not as tough as I used to be, so maybe that's part of it. Gina, I love this conversation. I, you know, so the thing that I just, I'm going to take two minutes on this. You have the book now, which I'm holding. Moving on doesn't mean letting go, which is obviously out now and you need to buy it and we're going to promote it.

And it's everything that we just talked about and more. And then you're in the process of writing another book right now called that bitch which is amazing in itself genius title no one can steal it it's hers and it's already out there almost it's about friendship lost yeah it's a modern which i think is so powerful no one talks about that like yeah i feel like there's books on friendship and there's books on belonging but we don't talk about what happens when we're navigating complicated friendships we don't talk about when friendships end what to do we don't talk about how we need to end friendships or how we view friendships or why we have the friends we have in our lives and how to communicate better,

how to be better friends. And, you know, so to me, I work with a lot of young people. And so there was a time period where I had some people coming in and they were telling me a story and they were like, and then I told her about my mom. And then she said this, like, can you believe it? That bitch. And then like the next hour, someone would come in to be like, that bitch did it again. And I was like, oh, my God.

And they're like, could you believe that this bitch said that or that bitch said that? And I was like, I can't. That's terrible. That bitch. And so it was like a full day. It was really funny. And it just dawned on me like at this point. I'm using that bitch so much that.

And it was because it was need, people needed to do better and be better. And so it just felt right to me. And it's sort of a nod to my clients as well. But also just the idea that, you know, that semantics and words are powerful, right? Like this bitch is great. Like this bitch we love. This bitch is like my bestie. That bitch is a different story.

And so, you know, we have this. It's like, what if it is like that, how am I that bitch in my life? And so it's a really deep dive in friendships, friendship loss, the grief of friendship, how isolating it can be, how lonely, how ashamed we can feel when we lose friends. And also just giving us our thought like on who we keep around us and why and how we could be better for each other. And so it's a snarky title, what I hope has a little bit of a heartwarming ending. No, it resonates with me.

It's a lot of what we talked about, like losing friends and how to deal with that. And you hear it all the time, like, keep your circle tight, you know, like, and that's something I tried to do. But that doesn't come without losing a couple of those bitches, you know. To me, it's keep your circle honest. Okay. And, you know, I can have a big circle as long as I feel like everyone's on the same page. I like that. And, you know, that we're all able to share our truths.

Sweet, so I don't have to narrow my friends down. I can just all up. They have to just be able to be like, Zach, you're being an ass today. They did. I have, those people exist in my orbit, for sure. We got to trust those people. It's the people that don't tell you when you're being an ass that you don't trust. I mean, look, there's a freedom in being wrong and making mistakes.

I mean, I 100% believe that every time I'm wrong and every time I make a mistake, if I'm able to acknowledge that, I am going to grow, and it's another opportunity to ultimately down the road, like, win, you know, and be the person that I want to be. Yeah. So. Well, it's not just about winning. It's about connecting. For me, it's about winning a lot of times.

It's about connecting, Zach. That's what this is all about. Well, it is. Community connection. Trust me. I'm one of the biggest advocates of all those things. Okay, so Gina. I know. One, tremendous social media follow.

So how do people find you there? Oh my gosh. That would be amazing. At Gina Mafa LCSW. It's, you're like popping off a little bit here. Like I saw some, I was like on there today,

a couple million views on some of your reels and like that was. It was weird. I don't know. I don't know who that is. No, it's funny because to me, sometimes I put a reel up and it's like just how I feel in the moment or how I feel about grief.

And those are the things that do better than if I'm trying to be in teaching mode or like therapist mode. So I've decided to just be me. And I love community and I love the engagement. So if you follow me, say hi. If you don't follow me yet, please follow me and say hi. I don't want to just have a follower. I want to have a community.

I love that. And the book is out. Moving on doesn't mean letting go. And then private practice, you're here on the Upper West Side, like still doing the work, right? Doing the work. Doing the work. Yeah, I've been traveling a lot, but I have a private practice and it's very full. I'm grateful.

I'm grateful. Website. Genomofa.com. Easy. Genamoffa.com, before we go, three quick, grief, three very low, what can someone do who's experiencing this feeling that's very uncomfortable? Breathe. Breathe. Connect with nature.

Get outside. Connect with nature. I don't care what the weather is. Call someone who loves you and who gets it. Call someone who loves you. That's three. That's three. You did it.

All right, we did it. And then fourth call Gina because she'll help you out. It's like better call Saul. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here. Awesome conversation. Thank you, Zach. Until next time, thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah.