The Zac Clark Show - The Importance of Sex and Communication In Any Partnership | Marriage Therapist: Kristy Fitzgerald

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

This week’s conversation is all about RELATIONSHIPS – the things that go unsaid and the challenges of nurturing a thriving romantic relationship. I dive into it with Marriage and Family Therapist Kristy Fitzgerald, founder of the KMF Therapy Collective. Kristy and I explore a wide range of topics including sex in relationships, sober sex and finding the right therapist. We also discuss the continued stigma for men seeking therapy, gender dynamics in couples therapy, and the impact of trauma and substance use on relationships. This insightful and relatable conversation is perfect for anyone who is in or has ever been in a relationship. Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

All right. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Zach Clark Show. I am super excited for today's guest. Christy Fitzgerald. Christy is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She runs a private practice both in New York City and New Jersey. We have done a lot of work together over the years and I'm happy to jump into it with her. Christy, how are you? I'm good. Happy to be here. You're nervous? A little nervous. I'm hoping I'll get over it. Yeah, you're fine.

We can, you can help me with, like, you know, my personal and, like, be my therapist, and I can help you, like, understand that no one actually cares. Everyone's thinking about themselves, right? That's true. That is true. That I know. So, Christy and I, you know, we met probably, I don't know, if it's 10, 8, whatever, years ago, and we go to all these marketing dinners, which, you know, they are what they are.

you meet people, you start to learn things about people's lives. And it came up at one point that Christy is a Pearl Jam fan. And I was like, all right, she's in. Right. How did that start? I started listening to Pearl Jam when I was like in 1992 as a teenager. Okay. Teenager of the, like a true teen of the 90s.

And then actually really started getting into them more once I moved to New York in 2000 because my little brother got into them. Okay. And kind of like there was a resurgent. And so we started going to all the shows and going to so many shows flying all over, like, Hawaii to see them and Europe and, you know, I'm going to MSG in September. I would be there one way or another. Yeah, yeah. Going through the basement, I mean, we'll get there.

Right. So that, but finding that out at that whatever it was, dinner was so fun because I was like, oh, something real to talk about in terms of like comparing like what shows you've been to or, you know, whatever. and then obviously naming her you know I'm trying to let me know I mean like I'm trying to let them know you know like when are they going to find out but you know I feel like it's going to happen but when it does

like if like Eddie comes like you have to let me know or I'm going to be really it's going to be hard to not forgive you so people like you know I have a little bit like people know who I am sometimes when I walk around the world and people are always like who who is the person you go up to and ask a picture like ask for a picture with and it's Eddie better It's one person, and it's Eddie Vedder.

Like, no one else, I could give a shit about a photo with anyone else on this planet. But if I see Eddie Vedder, like, no shame in the fucking game. I'm going up. And, like, because their music saved my life. I mean, I truly believe that. Like, when I was getting sober, that shit was on 24-7. Like, it's awesome. Yeah.

So I just, the story behind release and the song. And, I mean, I was like talking to my dad this morning and that whole song about your day. I mean, it's too much to even talk about. But I don't know how much you've kept up on them. But I do know that I think it was last week, Taylor Swift. And Pearl Jam. On the same day. Yes.

So you're like a Swift E2. It's been very hard for me this past week. I need the honest answer. Which album did you put on first? Oh, no. Well, I listened to Rackage, which was the song that they released first. Okay. But then I listened to Taylor Swift for like an entire weekend.

Yeah. And then I went back to it. Okay. So I've been back on it this whole week. That's fair. That's fair. Look, Taylor is on top of the world right now. Yeah, no, I mean, I've listened to a couple.

What's your, do you like, what's your, I like, I like, no, I was going to say, what's your favorite off the new album? If I'm being completely honest, I haven't, like, really dug in yet. You got to dug in yet. I mean, like, I listen to running. I listen to something, like, I haven't really gotten, like, turn the lights off and gone there, which I need to do. I've just been really busy.

It's good. It's a good album. And I actually like wreckage. That song, wreckage almost the best. Kind of has like a Tom Petty vibe. Yeah. Rest and peace.

Yes. It's good. And then I've listened to a couple of like Taylor Swift songs I don't even know. Down Bad. Yes. I'm impressed. Yeah, I don't know. It's good.

Yeah. Well, you like, you find yourself on enough text chains and like, you know, people are like shooting shit all over the place. You kind of, it's like everything else in the world you every once in a while you press play on something totally but it's the vulnerability that's connecting everybody yeah right everyone can relate because she's being so like open and honest yeah it's fascinating yeah I wonder you think she's

like she's probably done some therapy over the years right I'm I can imagine she's had to yeah right yeah I would love to be her therapist I just I mean I couldn't I mean yeah that would be amazing you can't think about like the NDA on that would be intense I'm sure. Significant. And it's, I think it's a good place to start because, like, you know,

you talk about Taylor Swift. Like, anyone in the, like, when do you get to that point where you actually, like, say, I'm going to, I mean, maybe I'll back up because I'm going to get there. But so, like, why therapy? Why did you decide to?

So it's kind of, it, it makes sense now. But at the time, like, I didn't start out knowing that I wanted to do this for sure. I think there's kind of an innate desire for our own healing that kind of brings people into this field. And I'd say that definitely was a part of it. And I don't even know how conscious I was of that at the time. But I actually, like, I went to Florida State. I was a writer.

I moved to New York to be a writer. So I was doing a lot of hospitality jobs for a pretty long time, which I actually think really informs the work that I do in terms of just kind of being able to talk to anybody. and knowing how to relate to people, knowing how to read people. Yeah, dealing with tough people. Yeah, well, just talking to people all the time. And then I actually had a friend at one point

kind of say, like, you know, you should be a therapist because I was everybody's therapist. Like, I was the friend that would answer. I'd like two in the morning because of the breakup or whatever. So I actually started looking into it. She's still a friend? She is still a friend. And does she know that?

Like, does she know that? Yeah, she knows. Okay. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. She was a catalyst. I was going to give her her credit. she didn't yeah she's she was a catalyst and so I started looking into it and then you know took a few classes and really really loved it and then realized that like it kind of was like

an extension of what I'd already been doing in terms of relating and and working with people but kind of just having more knowledge and how to do that in a way so it wasn't some like because you know like a lot of people that do this work it's it's very personal to them well in the course of doing that I think I realized how much work I had to do for myself and so it's no surprise to me that I work a lot with trauma I work a lot with substance use I think you know transgenerational trauma attachment trauma was something that I really had to like dive into and find my own way and so getting into school and then realizing like okay I need to do my own work they

really was like a parallel process right and lot of ways. The thing that's always amazing about Christy is so we you know behavioral health care it's almost impossible to be liked by everyone but I've never heard anyone say about like from your from your your patients your colleagues like it just so you have a way with people I mean that's very clear to me and that's that's why I've always been fascinated by you because I mean look there's plenty of people that I've worked with that like we just didn't see eye to eye on things and you know we go our separate ways or whatever it is and it's you know like we're so I'm sensitive so that hurts

sometimes like if a client or someone I'm trying to coach or help get sober it doesn't agree with me but I think it takes a lot to have such a sterling reputation so I just wanted to like no thank you for saying that I think it's meeting people where they're at being able to collaborate not letting like your ego get in the way like being comfortable not knowing and being in your own vulnerability, whether it's with the client or with another, like, clinician or whomever you're collaborating with. Yeah.

And like being authentic about that, you know, I think that's probably, I mean, we've also navigate, like, we were talking about this before the cameras or whatever started rolling. It's like this, this world that we work in is, is funny because we're all helpers. And I think for the most part, like 90% I would say of us genuinely want to help people. but they're it's a business too and there becomes this weird competitive jealous and i've you've always kind of stayed above it like you're there and you're participating and you show up at the dinners and you do the like you do what you have to do to build your business um but you're not like in the shit because like like any other field like or any other community like there's just shit

yeah i try that's on purpose yeah try and stay out of the shit yeah um and it is I've been really lucky to meet other really like-minded therapists that have their heart in the right place that are really good at what they do that just want what's right for the client and if you're really if that's the goal sometimes that's not me like sometimes I'm not the right fit for the client right and that needs to be okay like it needs that's part of this job is knowing and I think like understanding that that you could have whatever letters after your name you could go to the best school but if you don't know how to relate to that person or they can't relate to you it's not going to matter right and I think so the fit of the therapist is so important right and then I think

when you're talking about collaborating like there's so much to learn from other people and and just staying open in that way I think kind of cultivates those relationships and I've been really lucky to have other therapists that like really lift me up and I get to do the same for them that it's always we've always helped each other right you know I love that um And you guys have tough jobs because I feel like therapy oftentimes is like the first step that people are. I mean, one, I think therapy is obviously highly stigmatized, right? Especially for men. Yeah.

I tell one of my friends like, hey, have you tried therapy? And they look at me like I'm an alien. Yeah. I'm very grateful that when someone suggested therapy to me, I was like, oh, cool. What's that? And I don't know why, but that was when I think back in my story, like the first thing that I was actually willing to try. But it makes your job hard because they're coming in. And they don't actually know what's going on.

They're probably drinking too much or they're cheating on their wife or they're, you know, failing at work. Like, whatever it is. And you're like, what is that first? I mean, like, you know. Well, especially now with having enough experience, like, I can kind of feel it out pretty quickly. But you have to time things so carefully so the person can hear it. Right. If the person's in there on the first day, I can't start badgering them about their drinking.

I need them to feel like safe to experience. explore it. Can we be curious about it? So kind of, you know, timing, and still something that I work on, because I can be really fast and, like, want to just get to it. And, like, I have had to slow myself down a lot and, like, sit in that kind of, like, knowing and really be kind of timing it so that they're ready to hear it. Because otherwise, they're going to leave. If they hear something they don't like and they're not ready, you know. What's the law, like, the patient you see like how who is the I know we can't share like details but what's the longest period of time like your longest standing I have I wonder she's probably going to end up hearing this I've had a client since my

my first job when I was still getting my hours was at an outpatient substance abuse outpatient and I work yeah in New York and I worked with teens and because I wanted to work with family so I worked a lot with the teens and I think she was 14 and now she's like 24 no shit Yeah. So she's my, she's been with me ever since. And not all my clients are like that. I'd say most people kind of leave or leave and come back or whatever, but she's been with me the whole time. How cool is that?

It's pretty awesome. I feel like at this point it's more about the relationship than it is about like a clinical, therapeutic. Well, she trusts you. And that's the thing that I like, when I talk to people about, hey, give therapy a shot, it's like, who doesn't want to go into a room for an hour where the person is sitting across you literally can't say shit to anyone and be able to just speak freely and like you can actually trust that person now sure have therapist breached of course but well i well i think the reason it's i also think it's hard because i think when we slow down and sit in that room we have to feel yeah our feelings and i think that's why people avoid it yeah you know because there's so we do

so much to avoid like whether it's just the going going going or working or our phones or what substance is like i feel like it's hard to actually slow down and just let ourselves feel our feelings yeah yeah i reengaged i think uh i think i i reengaged in therapy so like covid coming off like being on tv and was like just lost and it was like back to feeling like a newcomer in sobriety like i just felt very lost in the world and someone said it was actually a colleague of ours kerry wilkins she's like you should probably consider getting back into therapy and that's why i love our field because she just like she wasn't going to like force it on me but and and so i've been in therapy weekly for the past four years

and i'm proud of that you know i'm proud of that you should be i feel like there you know i think a lot of people go to therapy and it's almost like going to the gym right it's like going to your trainer it's like taking care of your mental and emotional well-being on a weekly basis and then i think other people go because there's maybe a more pressing reason or like something that they're really like goal oriented about kind of figuring out or achieving so it just depends but I think I think it's so important to have that space to kind of like continue to learn about ourselves because I think we're always changing we're always growing so what will you should so like you know I'm always fascinated like one I don't know how the hell therapists do it like 40 hours of

talk therapy a week is like I'm gonna be fried after this conversation right and you're gonna go and do like probably back to back to back sessions till seven o'clock tonight which is like to me and it's not like you don't have bad days so how do you show up when you know you're going to have eight sessions in a row and you're expected to be this you know light or I'm just curious I don't even know almost it's so it's so natural for me now and I sometimes really enjoy that I can like not deal with my shit and just be there for them but if it's an eight out if it's eight clients back to back I'm going to have like ten different juices that I overpaid for like to get me through and you're you're just kind of like really in it with them

like you're the thing about it is I'm I'm like in myself as present as I can be with the client which feels good regardless of what's going on in my life yeah say yeah I mean, I don't, it's got to be a lot. It's just got to be a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. I think I have a large capacity, so you just kind of get used to it. Not everyone would see eight clients back to back, I'm sure, of that. Right.

But I think I also love it because I see couples. I see families and individuals, and I do EMDR, so all of that breaks up my day too. It's not the same conversation over and over and over again. Yeah. You know, like you have a couple session for an hour. you are you know at the edge of your seat most of the time because it's pretty intense and then you have your clients that you have a long longer standing relationship with that it kind of just it's so comfortable being with them so it kind of just changes throughout the

day so it goes by pretty quickly and when do you know like you know someone I guess what would be you see someone the first time what are the chances they come back for a second session and then how many sessions for them to stick? I mean, that's a great question. I feel like it's probably really different and it depends on the person. I feel like most people that are coming to me have been sent to me.

So, like, they're sticking after that first session, there's probably a pretty good chance they'll stick. I'd say it's probably, like, those first few, maybe by the third session, I might say something and you can kind of see it resonating, you know? Do you do all your own scheduling? or do you have help? I have some help now.

Okay. I have some help now. You earned it. Come on. I have some help now with the scheduling. And what about like cancel it? Because that's where I just get so fucked up with the therapy thing. It's like if you're trying to help someone, you're trying to show up and someone

canceles two weeks in a row and you want to be like welcoming and loving, like one, you kind of have to charge them. And then two, it's like, hey, we agree. What does that look like? I mean, I'm usually asking about it. And generally it doesn't, usually people come. I have to say it when it when someone's like really not showing up it's usually clinical I just assumed no one's showing up no actually they come but I would say too like it feels

it usually feels clinical meaning like it's trans it's like in the transference it's in the relationship like they're acting out yeah this happened recently but I don't want to give too many details because it'll be too obvious but like I had a client who's who's the work's been getting really intense yeah so he's backing off he's backing off and so I know that so I reach out and I'm like hey actually recently I just said you're probably not going to want to come next week so come next week yeah like notice that and just try and come but that's where the freedom is yeah I mean like I know for me like my therapeutic experience my therapeutic journey there there are weeks and weeks and weeks where I am talking about the same shit week in I know

you don't want to and like and I'll say to my therapist I'm like you have to be sick of hearing this. I just, and she just like, you know, she holds that space and she makes it comfortable. And then at some point, there's freedom because you get through the work together. I mean, that for me has been the biggest benefit to the journey. I think so. And I think, like, just being able to, though, yeah, it's those moments. Like, it's those moments that are the hardest, I think, probably for the therapist and the client, like the most uncomfortable moments. Right.

But I think the actual, like, healing happens, the actual growth happens. Like, and I know that now. I used to be like, oh, my gosh, this client's coming. And, like, you know, I'm nervous or, like, I'm anxious because it didn't go well last week. And now I know, like, I kind of, like, roll up my sleeves and get excited. Yeah. Because it's like the work. This is the work.

Yeah. Right. Okay. So you mentioned all the different types of there. And one stuck out to me. So I want to kind of dig in here. I am fascinated. by couples therapy

I'm just like isn't there a show right now or someone's oh yes she's wonderful too oh she's good she's so how do you feel about it like I would fan girl her on the street for sure but are you cool with her are the sessions like is it I think she's great I mean they're edited

I would love someone to edit my sessions too so I don't know what what's it called? It's called couples therapy okay orna is her name the therapist she's really great and it's good watching it because it helps me remember things like she's really good at sitting back because you're not you're not in it like you can sit back and kind of observe right that's what they need you for they need you to observe what's going on with them

so that you can help them be curious about it that's why they're there and they all couples often think they're there for like the content of their arguments like who left the dishes in the sink it's never, ever, ever about the content, really, with couples. It's never about the dishes in the sink. And I've definitely had people have a really hard time, like letting that element go, like needing to be right, and recognize it's really more about the feelings, you know? And generally, it's the way we protect ourselves.

So if I'm feeling vulnerable and my way of protecting myself is to pull away, and now my partner is feeling abandoned, So now they're activated. They're feeling vulnerable. What are they going to do? Maybe they're going to chase me, right? And now here's that very common kind of couple cycle of like the distance or pursuer. And it's the way we kind of can, for lack of a better way, like trigger each other in that dynamic.

And we're going to do it. Like couples, like that's your primary attachment, right? So that stuff, whatever those things are from childhood are going to come up. so when you're able to like get in there and get curious about it with them and they can recognize where it comes from like oh that's because you know it's like everyone gets a little bit more compassionate a little bit more understanding and it's like what can we do different like maybe i can say to you like i think i need some space but i'm going to be back like i need five minutes or whatever it is like just more communication around it and we can it's it's not really about not triggering each other because it's still going to happen but it's like how do we react or maybe it's more like how do we respond instead of react at what point are you heading I have so many questions about this so you get it do you get couples that are like just out of the honeymoon period like seven eight months into dating and they're calling and saying like we lost our spark are you getting folks that have been together for 20 years and like hey we're not having sex anymore

like I don't like them we want an open relationship like what I mean I'm getting all kinds of things so it definitely runs a gamut but I think people wait too long to do couples therapy I wish people would come earlier like come earlier don't wait until you hate each other to come and try and do this also I think and when it's towards that space I think one person's already out oftentimes and sometimes the work of the couple's therapist is helping them separate yeah the goal like I can't be attached to a goal of keeping people together right that's not my role so it's interesting in that way that do they ever come back if they're at

Like, have you had situations where you've, like, are this guy's out? And then you've started to work with them and... Yeah. They come back in. Like, and it is kind of like sometimes, and I will often use this one. I'll be like, because there's so much ambivalence. Do we stay? Do we go?

You know, and it's like owning that ambivalence, which is really hard and scary when you love each other to say like, I'm not sure and you're not sure, you know, and to sit in that space. But it's like, if we're going to do this and we're going to meet for the next, however long like why don't I take that idea of leaving I'll I usually say like I'll keep it I'll keep it on my shelf in my office and like for now we're just gonna we're just going to do this work and oftentimes it alleviates some pressure in that ambivalence and they'll kind of settle in to like letting themselves get curious about what is actually happening and when they're able to let those protector parts like those ways of reacting kind of go and you just lead with the vulnerability

they start connecting again how much like i want to get in there a little bit like how much of it is physical like they just don't want to have sex anymore like their best because like i just feel like you stick around this planet like i'm 40 years old now and you know i have friends and like all types of people that get married and in relationships and you know the shit you know at my age now it's like there are affairs there are open relationships i mean especially in New York City. I mean, this place is wild, so I'm just like, I'm curious about. Well, sex is a huge thing. It definitely comes up, and it's hard to have two partners, right? You maybe have one person that can, like, have sex to have sex and, like, have it just be

physical, and, like, you know, that could be fine. But generally, at least one person is kind of needing the emotional connection and the emotional intimacy to feel like they even want to be physical right and this goes for like heteronormative couples and I have a lot of same sex couples as well which is a little niche I don't know how I got but I'm so grateful for it because I really love it yeah I really love it um but yeah sex is a huge thing and I think it's hard because the relationship's not being tended to so to have that feel safe and like I don't know it's hard to do it without that intimacy part the emotional intimacy the emotional connection feeling like

thought about during the day it could be the smallest gestures the smallest things to help people stay connected so that that can be on the table and feel okay and I also think people don't have sex for a long time and then it's a thing because you haven't done it and no one wants to initiate because no one wants to get rejected so it becomes so vulnerable what do people do they just avoid it they don't even talk about it we've all been there it's like you know you're feeling a little frisky and you come on to whoever you're dating your partner and they're like yeah not tonight I'm not feeling

and you're like oh yeah and at some point you stop you're not going to keep trying right right right shut down and then it's the cycle right exactly um and that so that's interesting okay so you're like so there's there's couples where one person can probably just like come home and be like totally no matter what I mean I think like no matter what the state of the relationship yes would be happy to get laid and then the other person might need like a true connection to get turned on to get to a place where like this well and to feel I think this is where it happens is like to feel like it's about you because it doesn't feel like it's about me if it's just about getting laid if we're in a relationship right yeah so that's the

part that I think I see is like wanting it to feel like it has something to do with me like it's not just about you well that's what I get a lot a lot of guys that I'll you know in early sobriety like they're freaked out to have sober sex because they've just like had drunk sex their entire life and I sit them down and I'm like dude do you know how poorly you were probably behaving in the bedroom and like how grateful this girl is going or this woman is going or whoever you're having sex with is going to be that you're actually like thinking about them and present and it's all the shit we learn in sobriety like be of service and give the other person like it's not just like a pump and go and hey I got mine right so it's it's fascinating to me yeah and I

think that's it like and I think there is a lot of um just the vulnerability of it all is why it kind of gets left undone a lot of times couples will come in and they haven't had sex in three years and they haven't talked about it three years like imagine three years and the first time you're talking about it's because I'm kind of forcing you to because I'm asking wait hold up what's physical three years without having sex yes people go longer than that and what are they doing I don't know I mean sometimes sometimes Sometimes they're having affairs, sometimes masturbation, sometimes just really shut down. Oh. Like I think sometimes people really like shut that part of themselves down, you know?

So. Wow. I have compassion for those people. I mean, relationships are hard. I mean, that's why a couple said is so fascinating to me because I'm someone that's always been open to therapy. So like I'm dating someone or I'm with someone. They say you want to do therapy. I'm like, yeah, let's do it. Like really? Like, yeah. Make the appointment. You know, but to other people, it's so much work just you is it more I guess you said you deal with a lot of same-sex couples but in couples where it's guy girl is who who's typically reaching out I mean it's pretty like genit like what is it stereotypical in a way that like it's usually the woman right but I won't just let one person call and book the appointment I I

ask that the partner calls and make sure yeah because I think both people need to buy in so it's not oh well you picked this therapist and we hate her right like so I won't do it unless it's like well if you're you know let me have your husband reach out let's make sure I feel like a good fit for him too and then we'll move forward but it typically is the woman that is reaching out still and it often can feel like the man's dragging his feet and the dude's calling like my wife told me to call you uh-huh yeah I'm like okay right and like and then it's like trying to engage them and like having like a buy-in right that she cares about you dude well it's also just like this could be actually really

beneficial like are you happy are you satisfied and it's like okay if not then like why not get in here and let's talk about it right and then what if it's there's like a substance use disorder or drink too much like how does that change the dynamic like if the wife calls you and she's like I think my husband's an alcoholic are you trying to get him in your office or are you working with her to start to do her own work if they come in as a couple then that's my client yeah and if I am also kind of seeing you know some signs then I will a lot of times everyone gets a therapist so if they're whether it's a family that's seeing me or a couple like everyone it's kind of like Oprah like you get a therapist you get a

therapist you get a therapist so especially if there were a concern around drinking I would absolutely be making a referral so that that person has their own lane to kind of like explore that and whatever's going to come up in the couple is going to be kind of my with them right and so maybe they maybe he doesn't think he has a problem but she does and that affects the relationship so we have to talk about that right you know and start exploring it and it's hard because there's usually a lot of defensiveness around that and you don't want to the person to feel ganged up on you don't want them to feel judged so I try and honestly say like it could be any behavior you know like okay it's drinking but it could be

any behavior that's taking you you know what is drinking do you It moves you towards or away from a feeling. So, like, what's actually going on? So I try and just dig deeper so that it's not going to push that person out the door. Do you still love the work? Love the work. You do? Yeah, I really do.

I feel so grateful to, like, love what I'm doing. I do, too. Yeah. It feels like I'm doing exactly what I should be doing. Yeah. And the reasons have changed. I mean, like, my work has shifted. I mean, obviously, like, you're starting a, you've started a private practice

and successfully done so. And there's a whole other element that comes with that. And for me, growing release. And now we have like 80 employees. And so my focus has to shift to like helping our people grow and making sure that we're maintaining like the history and the culture and the spirit of what was built here. And so I love the new challenges of the work.

And I also just think that, and we were talking about this a little bit before we got started, it's changing in the sense. that for me when I got sober 12 and a half years ago I was like okay I need to stop drinking and stop doing heroin like it was very clear you know and once I did that I was like somewhat I mean I'm still sick in my ways and I'll never be yeah we all have our shit we all have our shit but in some ways I was like oh okay that made a lot of sense and like I'm ready to do whatever it takes to start to build a life but nowadays it's almost like sobriety is the first step towards actually healing all this other so can you talk like in 2024 what are you seeing as a

therapist how is how is like the the landscape kind of changed I and I well it's interesting because I don't know if it's the landscape that's changed or it's having more experience or like doing kind of finding myself doing deeper work like I started out working and you know outpatient substance abuse and very quickly realized that like I wanted to learn about trauma and that I needed to learn about trauma and so much of substance use is kind of a symptom I think related to PTSD and things like that so just realizing you have to go deeper and the work has to go deeper in terms of like where that healing is at the substance use is like the symptom that something else is going on right and even in a family like the person using is kind of be alarmed that just like in a base like

when you say it's the symptom yeah so I think of it as like that's the symptomology that lets us know there's something else going on it's not the thing and if you you can't get to the something else until that symptom right is is until you're sober um but if you get really stuck on the symptom you're going to miss all the other stuff and I think that's also when you're like just working with a human it's a person it's not just like you need to stop drinking it's like being able to understand that there's something else going on that's driving that right um and I think that helps a lot also with the stigma when families and and spouses and right the people that love the person can kind of understand like this is because someone's suffering this

is the symptom of that so why are we suffering right yeah I mean I man I remember I was a couple years sober and I was out with a friend and we were like kind of getting to know each other and he was kind of sharing his story and he was he was openly gay and he was sober and we had kind of connected and he said to me he's like I drank at the fact that I knew I was gay and couldn't feel like I could tell anyone for years and he's like the second I came out there was this freedom and all the sudden like the alcohol was still there but it I was able to kind of work through that because I got free like I was actually just my truth was out there exactly well and I think that's the thing like I think especially through a trauma lens like substances can kind of keep people alive it was works at first, you know, and so until it doesn't, right? And like most of our adaptive coping skills, they, you know, we grow and evolve and our system doesn't get updated like the way our phones do, right?

So like, knowing that at some point it really worked for the person and they really needed it and it may have saved their life and now it's not working anymore. I mean, look, Zanax is one hell of a drug, you know, like that, I mean, obviously like I don't mess with substances anymore but like I remember being 25 years old and being like I just want to shut off for tonight like whatever my mind and it wasn't these like I wasn't suicidal but it was like whatever crazy thoughts I was having and I would just like you know gobble and go to sleep well and that's the thing it's it's it's having to deal with those feelings we don't why would we want to feel painful feelings like why wouldn't we want to move away from that right like

it's interesting because I think about it like you learn not to touch the hot stove twice because you burn yourself. And I think our brain kind of works similarly to avoid painful feelings, although because it's counterintuitive that actually with emotions, it's about learning to feel them. It's about moving towards them. And so it's counterintuitive that like actually, no, we have to feel these painful feelings, not kind of engage in all these ways of avoiding them, which usually increases depression, increases anxiety, right? Increase increases risk. And so, you know, it kind of has to do with the fact that like we evolved as humans to have emotions so we could protect ourselves and adapt to our environments. And we do

so much to not feel. And I think we miss so much important information by not being able just slow down and feel the feelings. Do you cry? Do you have emotion? I cry all the time. Okay. I cry all the time. I might cry before this is over. Okay. I'm a cryer. It's all good. Yeah, I'm deaf. I mean, I used to not be. And then obviously all the therapy and all the work, like, I can barely like hold anything. Do you do that? Do you, can I ask? Yeah. I don't mind disclosing that I, I love my therapist. Okay. She's amazing. Very grateful for her. Amazing. I think. I think all therapists should have therapists. I mean, you would think. I think it would be good. I think it's good to remember what it's like to be the client to. I mean, I'll never. It's, and it's crazy. I remember I was, I was, you know, again, like early in my career, they do these. probably been on them where treatment centers, so substance abuse treatment centers, mental health, they'll host kind of professionals to show off their programs and you

go and you have meals and you sit in groups and you do the whole thing. And I was with a group of colleagues and we were down at this place in Nashville and it was like the second or third day and we got into the ring with the horse to do some equine stuff. I love that. And one of the therapists like lost and she was like hat down sunglasses on me. mean mug and everyone the entire first couple days. Wow. And like everyone's like, what's up with this chick?

Like she's not very nice. We're all just here to like learn about the program and hang out. And something happened when she got in and near that horse that like something. And she broke down in the middle like all these, like all of her. And I think ended up like staying or doing like like like like needed, you know, like needed to do the work and something broke free. And I just have to imagine that she was probably treating so many people and showing up for so many people, but not showing up for herself.

Totally. And I think also we hold so much. I take in all of that. And the therapist is holding all of that, plus your own stuff, plus your own, you know, life. And it's really, like, I have my therapist. And then I also supervision. So I have supervision for my work, which is kind of like therapy for work. And I have my EMDR supervisor. Like I do a lot of like work to like make sure I'm good to do what I need to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it's so much. Yeah. So one of the reasons that I kind of wanted to start the podcast, which I'm just really like the hope is just to be helpful.

And so as we think about therapy and your work and the person that might be listening to this that is resonating. but has never done therapy or did therapy and is scared to get back into it. What, how would you describe that process? Is it fair to say it's kind of, it's going to suck and then it's going to get better? Like, how would you mean? Like, just like, if you were to say,

this is my sales pitch to go into doing therapy, what would that be? Oh my gosh. Yeah. I think the thing is, is like, life is short too. See, now I'm going to get emotional. I feel like life is really short to not feel like you know yourself, like you can connect to other people.

And so to give yourself that and give yourself the opportunity to kind of really slow down, really learn to feel, to stop running. I think everyone, so many people are just running. You know, you can't run from yourself. We go wherever we're going. And so to be at peace with that. and like in a place of acceptance like is worth the hard feelings and the hard work of showing up I think

I don't know was that good is that a bitch I'm a runner I mean like I'm literally your runner I mean physically I run but I also I mean I was talking my dad this morning and I was like you know we have this Thursday call every week at 10 o'clock with my dad which I look forward to and I love you know it always starts like you know business and then it moves to personal and son what's going on my dad's the best and he kind of just said like what's been going on and i just well i got really sick over the weekend and prior to that i was just kind of like all over the place and i and i thought about it in that moment like i couldn't even answer the question like i've been just going so fast that i came and i came and tell people what i'm doing right well i think life can get really busy right

And it's New York. We're all really busy all the time. The sirens. Yeah. Like it never stops. And so I think that's the thing that I've learned and also try and share and, like, work with people on is, like, the ability to slow down. Yeah.

And be, like, present in your body. Like, what? So I do a lot of, like, where do you feel that in your body? Like, where does that resonate? You know, can you name what you're feeling? Because I don't think we actually feel unless we slow down. I don't think we can actually be aware of what we're feeling if we just keep. keep going like on to the next on to the next you know yeah you know and I think

that's where like the healing comes from too is being able to slow down feel some of those hard feelings that need they need our attention yeah and we're kind of doing the opposite when we just keep going yeah I mean what's it you know what's interesting about what you just said too is I think with with therapy and there is more brands and more folks that are kind of like therapy is cool and you know like there's like a lot of that stuff coming out which I which I appreciate and love um and for us in particular like the work we like you're not just a general therapist right like you're dealing with trauma and substance use disorder and affairs and like heavy stuff like you're and I just wonder what it would take to shift the narrative around therapy to like you don't have to be in crisis to take care of yourself totally i honestly think it's like kind of a gift to take care of yourself to give yourself 45 minutes a week it's not that much 45 minutes a week if you think about all the other things people will

prioritize you know it's like 45 minutes a week for yourself for whatever you want right to like be curious about yeah you know yeah because that's the assignment right like I only go to therapy my life is burning down like I've actually had to learn that that the most valuable therapy for for me is like when shit's going good like let's exactly exactly and that's the same for couples that's the same for families it's so much easier in a way to do deeper work or to be more curious when like there isn't a fire to put out right because that's crisis management that's not therapy yeah you know which probably isn't even fun I mean like that's probably

stressful for you right as a therapist or yeah I mean I mean yes when they kind of when people are only calling when their house is on fire it's like yeah that's not exactly what i do right i can do it but that's not why i don't know that's not the the long term you're not going to get that's again that's a symptom that's not the root so you're until you're able to get in here and focus and spend some time right you won't get to the root of whatever those fires are i don't think but there's hope i think so i wouldn't be able to do this work if i didn't get to work with people that like get something out of it and make changes and get benefit you know that's what's so rewarding about it is kind of like getting to just be the witness yeah

for them yeah we're all connected by our stories i mean even today you walked in and we started you know in a very general way like we just know like we've worked on cases together and we've treated people together and there's been highs and there's been lows and for the most part if you get to see someone over the course of like five to ten years that's one of my problems with sobriety and when someone comes into release or someone decides to get sober it's oftentimes the family because they're uneducated it's very black and white they're either sober or they're not it's either good or bad and what I've learned throughout my career is that this is actually like a truly a marathon yeah and so you know someone walks

in your office, you know, with all this trauma and a heroin addiction and, you know, a messy relationship. And five years later, they're, like, able to have a glass of wine here and there and they're in a healthy relate. Like, that's a win. Yeah. There is definitely, like, a, in terms of the substance use piece, like, I've really learned. And I think I have a pretty large capacity for risk.

So I can really ride, like, with people through some shit. We've seen it. In the, you know, in the hopes of like that they're going to find their way of like what they want, what they need for themselves. But, you know, it really is your own sense of safety and risk of when I use the relationship and say, like, this doesn't feel safe. Yeah. And what are we doing? I don't know that I'm helping. Like, what are we doing?

You know, that kind of conversation that you have to kind of like, what do you want? Yeah. You know? Yeah, that's such a great starting point. you want. I don't think a lot of people can answer that question. Yeah. You know, like people ask me what I like to do. For me at my age, it's very clear. Like, I like to golf. I like to go to pro jam concerts. I like to run. I like to go to Philadelphia sporting events. I can rattle it off. But it's very, it's very interesting to talk to people who are just starting out on

like the healing journey. Like you ask them what they like to do. They literally can't answer the question. They don't know. Yeah. Well, I think also if you, if it's just, been substances then there probably isn't anything else yeah a lot of times you have to go back to like before substances what did you like because maybe you'll still like some of that like yeah and like the exploration and the experimentation of finding out but I think that can also be it's work but it's hopefully also rewarding yeah you know well you're the best I mean let me I mean I got to do some plug work here so in New York you're like 20 like your office 25th in Broadway

25th the Broadway so like in the like easily accessible yes how do people find you on kmf therapy collective.com kmf therapy collective.com that's it yeah and they'll be able to kind of everything's there the wonderful people I've working with me are all on there how many therapists do you have in the city I have three in the city and two and Hoboken okay so you got a squad got a little squad yeah are you like that I'm loving it but also really aware of like keeping it where it's at yeah yeah I met a few of them right didn't they come to our event yeah yeah yeah you did yeah they're wonderful I'm really really blessed to have people that have experience yeah that want to work with me

yeah so it's not necessarily people that are just getting out of school not that there's anything wrong with that but everyone just because of the kind of referrals we get like everyone's really experienced EMDR couples family like they're great and through the website if you have questions or just curious or they can like write in or they'll be able to contact and do all that stuff. Absolutely. Yep. Sweet. Anything else you think is important before we? I mean I think the most important thing is that you listen to the new album and then so you can tell me what songs you like got it. Yeah. I was on hey look my ego wanted to say make up you know like some twisted but like I just haven't well you clearly need to slow down and make some time to listen to it

Because you know they're going to play it in September. Yeah, you can't go see them because half the show is going to be fucking dark matter. New shit. Which is fine. I appreciate that. People like. Is your favorite song release? Is that the favorite song?

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, in my heart, my soul, just because of what goes on here and the work and just what it means to me, of course. But I, uh, you know, they're like the song is coming. go from yeah from existence and I don't know they just he they just got me and people are just like roll jam like yes pro jam people that get it get it yeah well I'm also if anyone I learned that in therapy like in terms of my taste of music and sports teams like I'm done with the fights like I don't give it like I's just like I'm not I don't like I like I like

I like to eat Philadelphia Eagles I'm not someone at the game who's like you know pulling your showed overhead and you know you're cheering for the other team like we can be adults here but go birds right got it um we're the best this was easy i hope are you not nervous i'm not nervous anymore so i don't know what happened but thank you so much okay cool christie fitzgerald everyone thank you for coming that's a wrap for this edition of the zach clark show