The Zac Clark Show - THE MARATHON EPISODE: Transformative Stories from the TCS New York City Marathon

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

In this special post-TCS New York City Marathon episode, Zac, on the eve of his own 10th NYC Marathon, sits down with four inspiring runners who share how the race has transformed their lives. Each guest brings a unique story of resilience, healing, and growth. Featured guest Rob Simmelkjaer, CEO of New York Road Runners and a two-time NYC Marathon finisher, discusses his commitment to making running accessible to all through NYRR’s mission of enhancing community health. Rob, a native New Yorker and former sports executive at ESPN and NBC Sports, offers his perspective on how the marathon fosters unity and empowerment. Among Zac’s guests are Andrew Schwartz, Luc Zoratto, and Sean McGowan, who ran this year’s marathon to support the Release Recovery Foundation, raising funds for scholarships to provide recovery treatment through Release Recovery. Luc, a Canadian social media influencer open about his sobriety journey, shares how discovering running has been a powerful tool in his recovery. Sean McGowan, Senior Director of Continuing Care at High Watch Recovery Center—the world’s first 12-Step treatment center—speaks to the mental wellness benefits that running has brought to his life. Together, these runners demonstrate that the NYC Marathon is more than just a race—it’s a celebration of community, resilience, and the power of recovery. Join us for these compelling stories of transformation and the life-changing impact of running the largest marathon in the world. Right now, our listeners get 20% off your first order when you use the code Zac20 or go to shopduer.com/ZAC. Code will be active until Dec 15, 2024 excluding the Black Friday blackout period from Nov 22 to Dec 2 Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

For format this week, we have an extra special in New York City Marathon edition of the Zach Clark Show. We filmed these episodes at the Marathon Expo in New York City on Friday. There's going to be a little energy buzz, background noise in the air because it was done kind of in this open air expo where everyone is super pumped. And, you know, these four conversations, we're going to roll them right into one another. They're inspiring. They're heartwarming. They tell human stories.

we all deserve to hear Luke, Sean and Andrew are all folks who are in sobriety and we're running as a part of the Release Foundation team. And then we also, we're so fortunate enough to have the CEO of New York Roadrunners Rob Simmelkare stopped by and the work he's doing with that organization is unbelievable. I mean, they are just helping so many people through their charitable efforts. And so look, the New York City Marathon is my favorite, favorite, favorite day. of the year and it's not because I run it every year and I cross the finish line it's because of the stories the stories that come out of that day the stories leading up to that day and we're proud to highlight some of them in this episode we hope you enjoy

all right what's up everybody we are here with one of my all-time favorite humans in the entire world mr. Andrew Schwartz Andrew Schwartz is annoyingly nice he's just annoyingly nice he's just one of these guys that when you meet him you have no other choice but you have a friend Andrew how are you I'm good man thank you so much for asking me to be here I'm like thinking about all the times I've been at this expo with you without you just how far we've come yeah it's wild I want to get into the marathon stuff but I got to start with um so how many so you're sober how many years now November 10th is going to be eight years which is wild to think about so I met you like seven years ago is that yeah yeah I think

that's exactly right yeah probably more than that a little bit more than that yeah so seven so eight years ago October what was going on it was right drunk I know that i was hammered yeah and doing all sorts of opiates and pills and i mean i like to uh i was like hunter s thompson is what i liked i had the uppers downers screamers laughers all in my pocket ready to go yeah and unfortunately around Halloween that year my buddy johnny o passed away of an overdose okay he like came into the program and then went back out And, like, first one, he went, done. Heroin.

Heroin. Yeah. And that... And this is a high school buddy or just talking about... Yeah, it's a high school buddy. Yeah, yeah. And that sent me in a tailspin, dude. And I was, like, already, like, really struggling.

But when he died, I, like, I went on a bender. I broke up with the girl. I was dating right after the funeral. Yeah. I was emotionally shot. And my buddy got married in New Orleans. and I went down there and blacked out for like four or five days straight and missed my flights

What is that? I mean New Orleans blackout Bourbon Street Like what is that is that what does that look like? I mean it's supposed to look fun it's supposed to look like a party It was not it was not a party I was in such a dark place like calling my parents I don't know what I said, my brother, my ex-girlfriend at the time, it was ugly. It was really dark. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, like, I ran out of drugs when I was down there, so I'm running up and down Bourbon Street in a tuxedo, like, trying to cop. It was not, it was not pretty. Yeah. So I want to go, okay, so, so that's, so then that four or five day bender and then how do you end up in treatment? I work in a family business and I went into work Monday morning after my bender and like this was not the first time that my family has seen me off the rails and my dad and my brother took me out to breakfast and they said hey we think you should get some help and I literally said yo what took you so long you know like why why was this it and that was on Monday and by Wednesday

I was in treatment of Karen in Pennsylvania. Yeah. And I was trying to leave by Friday. Yeah. So it's interesting because I know you well. I know your story. And real talk for a minute here. You say my family, which family means a lot of things to a lot of different people, but you are adopted.

Right. And can you, so in our work at release recovery, the work we do, and I feel like it's almost like now worse than ever a high percentage of our folks that we help are adopted and so we try to get into some of that stuff here on the show to highlight that wasn't your choice you were born into it and I think you've made strides to meet your birth family but can you talk a little bit

about your experience being adopted in hopes of maybe like inspired someone else who's listening to this, that journey, what that has meant to you? Yeah, I mean, look, I think, like a lot of things in our lives growing up, we don't really know what affects us until we, like, come to terms with it and have to do the work, right? So my brother is six weeks older than me. He's from Santiago, Chile.

Yeah, the math does not add up. No, no. The math doesn't add up. And he, you know, you've met my brother. Like, he's dark skin complexion, complete opposite of me. So we knew growing up that I was adopted. And like, it wasn't until middle school that I really felt out of place in my family. And I never felt comfortable in my own skin, like ever.

And I think a lot of that does relate to adoption, but I think a lot of that also relates to, like, addiction, right? I feel that when you talk to anybody in recovery, they oftentimes don't feel comfortable. in their own skin, but the adoption thing was, when do you know, like, okay, so let's get dial back. Do you know at eight years old? Do you know at five? Is it like something? I think at five. Okay. Yeah. At five is when you know, like, you're like, oh, my brother doesn't look like me. My brother doesn't act like me. Like, at five is when you realize, hey, I'm adopted. We were always brought up, like, told that we were adopted. And like, my parents, embrace that like there was a poem on my parents wall that was like not bone of my bone

not blood of my blood but you're my son or something like that so we always knew that we were adopted but because you don't know how that affects you until later years in life I don't think I ever associated like my journey with adoption until later in life but look I mean the their biological family and plug them into another family there is going to be an emotional response to that and be for a long time i was incapable of explaining my feelings and incapable of understanding how that felt yeah and because of that inability i thought drugs and alcohol were the way. Like when I found Adderall, Xanax, pot, booze, I was like, this is, this solves all the problems. Yeah, it works till it doesn't. Oh my God. It works so well. It worked really well for a long

time. So at five, you know you're adopted. You have this brother that is six weeks older. Yeah, six weeks older. And so your parents, what, they, they like went back. How does, I mean, I don't know much about the adoption process. Forgive me for, you know, my ignorance. But is it kind of you, you went back to back, like they went back to back? Yeah, so they put in multiple applications because you never know when this is going to happen, right? And I, my parents found out about me first, and I was on Long Island, so they got me first. And about a week later, they found out about my brother and had to fly to Santiago, Chile to pick Ben up. Unbelievable.

And then they were back home in New York with two kids. I mean, you know, my brother was at the time probably like three months old. you know i was you know a month and a half behind that so yeah wild experience for my parents and dude like i can't even imagine for them first of all how big of a blessing it is for them to like finally have kids but also how nerve-wracking it would be to one day basically wake up with two kids right yeah at least when you're pregnant i would imagine like me and my wife are not pregnant but i would imagine that that nine-month process there's a lot of growing and figuring out and planning when you're when these adoptions kind of happen yeah

they put in the applications they didn't know you know Ben is so chill I mean Ben is a legend so it's hilarious we're on your bachelor party I guess it was a summer like late whatever the year's flying by but anyway and you guys are like there's so much love there and it's so special and you guys share like it is a true brotherly love like there's no bullshit between you guys adopted or not and uh you know he fortunately or unfortunately he probably had to see you in high school kind of be be who you were right like he was he was more on the reserve side and you were out there like crashing cars and shit yeah he was known as Andrew's brother forever right like and I think that had a uh a difficulties and a little bit of a pride to it too like yeah I was

the bad boy in high school you know and I can't imagine that it was easy for him him because he would see me getting in fights, crashing cars, like the ultimate knucklehead. But I think he always knew I had his back. And I think that, you know, like I remember one kid, like call him Indian or like said something to him. And I like ripped his kid's throat out. I was like really upset, you know. But yes, brotherly love is exactly, nails it right on the head.

And I'm just so back to the adopt. thing and maybe this question resonates with you, maybe it doesn't. Like, did you, did you blame yourself? Did you blame your birth parents? Did you ultimately forgive yourself for being adopted? Was it not like that for you? Like, I'm very curious about like your, you're very proud of it now. And like for me, when I met you, it kind of came up, you know, six months or a year into us knowing. And I was like, oh, that's cool. And it was very, it was like past assault. Yeah. I mean, I think because I grew up in a loving family, and never wanted for anything of my life,

it's hard for me to say, like, I drank at it or I resented my biological parents. And I think that speaks to who my parents are, right? Like, my parents are so open and honest and loving that it was never a thing. It was never traumatic for me to explain adoption. And for me to be proud. of that fact that I was adopted you know and I think there is a level of pride that I've always had in yeah because it's a story right like it's a not everybody has that experience and then look as time went on it got we're weirder and we're being real right like I think in high school I started to

realize my abandonment issues through going to therapy and through talking to a psychologist and learning that like adopted kids in general have higher rates of ADHD and anxiety. And around then is when I understood that there is some trauma associated with not growing up with my biological family. Right. And I was always way more curious than my brother was. I don't think I would have ever sought out my biological family because I don't think I had the wherewithal to do it. like I was so scared when I was drinking and drugging and filled with fear that like I wouldn't want to have had that scar ripped open like it's really well you avoided it probably right I mean like you just yeah I avoided talking about it I avoided thinking about it it it was very much like you know stuff that emotion inside yeah I mean it's so interesting because it's like you know I just, I, I, uh, I've talked about it. Like, I just went to on-site and it's like this, like,

everything leads back to family. As much as we want to deny the fact that, like, we are products of our environment and products of the way we're raised and products of who we are as like infant children, you know, for you, you were, you were six weeks into your life, into your existence on this planet, like, scooped up by another set of parents who are wonderful and I know them and I love Gary and like you know like it's their their their angels for what they did for you but that still doesn't mean that you're not going to feel those things later in life no for sure and I think romantically like all your relationships right every relationship is affected by the adoption and like for a long time it was I didn't know how to have difficult conversations

I didn't know I would withdraw often and I was a chameleon because because I wanted to be loved by everybody. And until I started doing the work, I didn't know why I was the nicest guy in the world, right? And I think like sometimes that is endearing as it is, it could be a character defect too, right? Which is like, you know, you don't always have to be the nicest guy. When you're running a business or you're having difficult conversations,

it's important to have boundaries and understand why my innate default. is to be the nice guy. Yeah. We've turned out all right, and that's the result of your recovery. Before we move on, I'm going to ask one last question, and, you know, I want this to land the right way, but would you or do you, would you adopt a kid? You just got married, or would you, is that something

that you are passionate about doing, or is it something that you're trying to leave behind? Or like, what is your current energy around? No, it's an emphatic, yes. I mean, me and Molly have spoken about it before, right? Like, look, I even knowing my biological family would have been fine in that family too, right? But my biological mom, who is an amazing person, wanted me to have a better life than she thought she could provide at 19, dealing with the struggles she was dealing with at the time. There are a lot of kids out there that are in foster homes that are in,

adopted out of really terrible environments and those lives are saved by the parents yeah that adopt them and I was hoping that was going to be the answer I mean absolutely yes dude I mean for sure and that's not an easy journey at all and the older the kid is like the more difficult that journey becomes right yeah so shifting gears we are here at the new york city Marathon Expo. We're both running this weekend. We left the earlier conversation kind of like you were in Karen, you went to treatment, and then you moved back to Connecticut and you were going to meetings in Yorktown Heights. And at some point in that journey, I guess it was Amy Durham or someone from Karen connected us. And we became fast friends. I don't remember,

dude, how did I put you in a headlock and get you to do the first marathon? Did I just kind of tell you that you were doing it or yeah it was simple as that we had like six bibs i think at the time for run well yeah and you were like schwartzie you're running the marathon this year like get ready and that was eight months from the star line so i had no excuses um to to to get out of that and i ran my first 5k was a it was called the frozen penguin in riverside park and look dude i was i was I was a big boy. Like, even when I got sober, I was like, so. You're good.

So, yeah, you told me. You said Schwartz who were running the marathon is here. One of my favorite photos is us is us on the bus, ripping a selfie before the start line. Those were back in the days, man. Those were back in the days. And so how do you, like that person, because there's one thing, it's one thing to get sober, and then it's another for me.

The Andrew Schwartz I'm sitting across from is not the Andrew Schwartz. I met seven and a half years ago. I mean, you're a completely evolved human being. You're a completely changed human being. What has that journey been like? I think we focus a lot on kind of like the war stories and the Hunter S. Thompson, you know, vision we have of ourselves. But like when you, what does the last seven years look like for you? or eight years

I mean chop wood and carry water right like I think first of all there are people put in our lives that transform you like the first was like my mentor

in AA right like I was looking for the perfect guy and like Brian the beard was put in my life And this guy... Shout out, Brian the beer. This guy took me through and taught me how to embrace myself.

Yeah. And taught me how to be calm and taught me how to explain emotion. And my therapist, Ed Sage, like, checking in with him weekly for two or three years to figure out how I was feeling and what I was feeling and learning healthy coping mechanisms for life, right? Like for so long in recovery, for so long an addiction, I had no idea how to deal with any life situation whatsoever. So when you get into recovery, you're like, all right, well, your only coping mechanism is taken away now, you know, go deal with it, right? So we go to meetings and we talk to therapists, that journey has been hard.

Yeah. I mean, like, getting to know who you really are, who your real friends are. That's the crazy thing about therapy. I mean, when I think about therapy, it's really like, because people will bitch and say, it's, I didn't have the right therapist. They're like, the only excuse people have to not do therapy is they just don't want to face the truth about themselves. They don't actually want the knowledge.

They don't actually want to change. I'm convinced of that because I've had multiple therapists. They've all been fine. They've all been really good, actually. But at the end of the day, I get out of therapy what I bring to it. For sure. I mean, you can't go in and think, hey, Ed Sage, solve my problems, right? It's like, how vulnerable are you willing to get?

Are you willing to open up about your trauma, your feelings, your emotions, your relationships? I mean, the majority of my therapy over the year has been talking about how I show up in relationships, who I want to be and who I have been in the past. And that's the most rewarding type of work I can do is showing up, figuring out how I could be a better husband, how I could be a better friend. Like you and I have gone through difficult situations and like I've gotten a therapy with those conversations about like,

hey, why am I feeling this sort of way? Yeah. How do I show up better? How do I explain what I'm thinking and feeling? How do I explain that I'm hurt to another man? No one wants to talk about that stuff. How is my adoption and my relationship with my biological family impacting my life today? Right?

Like, I mean, I think kind of like what we touched on is in the adoption thing is like because you're so young and you don't know how it affects you, then later in life something happens where your biological mom, reaches out and there's other trauma like dude my biological mom reached out and introduced me to my biological dad my biological dad was like yeah I would love to meet you and then he disappears yeah and like I was 21 you know that is traumatizing because I knew how that felt well I think as men like you touched on it right I guess men we shove that shit oh my god and

we are scared to to talk about that and that's why I always like you know it's like people ask me what animal I would be it's like I would be an elephant right like don't don't mistake my kindness for weakness like don't don't mistake my vulnerability for weakness right and so like I've and you and we and our relationship is just this beautiful testament to what can happen when two men are fucking honest with each other and that's like you know a seven eight year relationship like relationships are hard man and if we weren't willing to kind of like whatever like talk about the way that we were feeling we wouldn't be sitting here today and that's just the truth of it you know yeah i i think well first of all that's definitely true a couple

years ago i think like we were in a difficult a difficult spot and i didn't really know how to navigate that and so like i let my my foot off the gas with you and like took a little space to think about it and then to go back and like look at my actions and talk it out with my therapist like what what relationship do I want with you and figuring out how to get there and having those honest conversations to get there that's so rewarding yeah I mean it really is right like those are only things that like I've done with my family because I know I'm stuck with them right like so to do that with a friend and since then multiple friends right because like life happens and weird stuff happens and so like those conversations are pivotal in relationships

and are either going to make or break it and that's okay right relationships disappear and like that's okay. But I think we both wanted this to work. And that's amazing. Yeah. No, it's, it's amazing, dude. It's all the shit we learn in recovery. It's all the stuff that I feel like, you know, they talk about when you first get sober, this fourth dimension of reality that you're going to end up living in. And it sounds like total cuckoo, like out there in space kind of stuff. But it's, it's the truth. Like a lot of people will walk through. life and never have the ability to have an honest conversation because they didn't grow up in a household where that was okay. And for me, I grew up in a beautiful home. We talked about a

lot of things, but like our feelings were not always front and center. And so having to learn that later on in life and how to navigate, you know, conversations with my friends. Like, that's just, it feels so gross. But at the end of the day, it's, it's one of the more rewarding things I get to do. What is the fourth dimension for you? It's this. What we're doing right here, bro. It's running the, I mean, dude, you talk about, so, look, we had some luck.

So Andrew is a board member of the Release Foundation. He's a legacy board member, which basically means I called him and said, dude, we're going to start this nonprofit. You're going to be on the board. And like a good sober man, he said, okay, fine. It was actually an emphatic yes. And at the time, we had like, you know, we were fundraising through another organization called Runwell, which Andrew mentioned, and we had an opportunity to acquire them and their bibs to the New York City Marathon, which at the time was like 10 or 15 bibs. And we were running.

I have one of the first pictures, which I'll share. And we were running in like, you know, bad gear and it was just a bootstrap effort. And tomorrow at our shakeout run, we're going to have, you know, a couple hundred people. We have 100 people running the marathon. Our goals to raise a million bucks. Like, it's a special, special thing that we've created. And the fourth dimension of existence to me is I know this isn't me and I know this isn't you. Like we're not that powerful.

This is like the collective energy that we've put out into the world that people have been attracted to. and now they fly the release flag. And that's what the running community and recovery community both do really well. I mean, that's so true, right? Seven years ago, being here with Runwell, I mean, like, the whole thing is, it's magical when you look back at it. How many marathons have you done? This will be my sixth marathon, my fourth marathon, my fourth.

my fourth New York. Well, I had one year I didn't finish in 2019. Was that the first? No, it was the second. Yeah, that was brutal. Dude, all right. So we got to stop for a second. Talk about 2019.

This guy fucking, I see it. So for those of you that run the marathon, half the battle is managing your energy. And I just remember that year, I learned pretty early on in running this thing that you got to go slow to start. And I saw this guy. pass me screaming out music running way faster than he's capable of at like mile four and a half

and then I was not surprised to find out that he did not finish when did you explode that year right over the queensboro bridge six done done legs just mind body just not no legs wouldn't move I cramped up and like it was brutal it was I mean that's one of those pivotal moments too right it's like, all right, I didn't finish the marathon. Am I going to lean in? Am I like a fat idiot for trying to run the marathon? Or do you come back stronger with vengeance and learn how to run and learn how to fuel and learn how to be a better athlete and a higher professional help in order to do that?

And I mean, like, those are the decisions in life that we made. I'm a total sicko. I've thought, I've actually thought about if I cramp up or if something was to happen where I get injured, like, how I'm going to army crawl to the finish line. Yeah. I've actually had that. I have that plan in my mind because it's my biggest fear, not finishing. It was brutal.

And I cry, like, when I stopped, Danny, my best friend, ran across the city for me to be, like, his, for him to be my shoulder to cry on. Yeah. It was like amazing, truly inspiring, you know, to have someone, a guy again that I like lean on in my day to day to be the homie, the guy, was there to be my person. Yeah. Which was awesome. You're such an inspiration, dude. I mean, like, I don't know. Like, I just feel like having met you seven years ago, seeing the man that you've trained.

I mean, like, I went to your wedding this summer, which was, which was awesome. there was just so many beautiful moments that weekend and Molly your beautiful bride is just such an ace and good for you and the perfect girl for you because she's going to keep you on the end she dude she's going to she's going to have a backbone which like you know we need yeah I think look that's that that's one of the things like look she pushes me to be a better man yeah and to set boundaries

and like lean into who I am as a human being and you talk about difficult conversations and like getting vulnerable to know somebody and opening up like dude when we met at Boston marathon like full circle running introduced me to my wife to grow together and like learn how to explain my history and learn that it's just a piece of who I am yeah and then yeah i mean mollie look she's a rock star she is truly a badass so i'm gonna finish with two questions here one you can answer them in any order one is probably a little bit more serious than the other the first one is what do you tell the adopted kids man, adult, whatever you want to call,

what do you tell the person who is adopted that is blaming their birth parents and cannot get sober, so they are drinking or drugging at that incident? What do you tell them? And what do you tell the lighter question? I'm giving you two choices here. You've got to answer both, though.

The lighter question is, what do you tell the person that says, I hate running? I'll never run a marathon. I mean, look, I'll take talking to an adopted kid first. And the first thing I will say is you are enough because I needed to hear that. I was always comparing my insides with other people's outsides. I hated myself and wouldn't forgive myself because I wasn't wanted.

by my biological family, I drank at people because if you were me, you would do what I do. If you were in my shoes, you would understand the way I feel. So I would say a couple things to that adopted person. And the first thing is, you are enough. Like, you are loved. You are supported. Go find your people. go find your tribe because you are enough and second of all look at your relationship with drugs and

alcohol if you were put on adderall at 14 look at that don't use the i got a script from a doc as your pillar to stand on all of these drugs that were given by doctors yes they may be beneficial but what I learned is I'm a much better human being off of them and when I went to college a landmark college in Vermont for ADHD and learning disabled kids there were a lot of adopted kids there and I think like we treat our feelings with substances look at your relationship with drugs and alcohol and know that you are enough for the person that hates running just go out there I mean right now I got my brother-in-law right I hate running I'm never going to a marathon I hear that shit every day all the time yes all the time

I heard it today. I have flat feet. I can't run a marathon. Yeah, I have flat feet. Go out there and run. That was, by the way, that was our producer, Jay. We're going to call him out right now. Says I have flat feet.

I can't run. Guy in high school was the Jewish Jordan. I mean, like, he got buckets. You don't get buckets with flat feet, so it's clearly just an excuse. I will say go out there and go run for 15 minutes. doesn't care the pace doesn't matter you will get an endorphin and dopamine release in your head that you will end up loving i was 300 pounds when i got sober i didn't start running i started on a bicycle a stationary bike and i built that up from 15 minutes to 20 minutes to half hour to going on

the elliptical to running my first 5k to my 10k half marathon my first half marathon my first half marathon was three hours and 53 minutes. I have now run a marathon in a shorter... Your first half marathon? Yeah, dude. Oh, wow. I missed that. I spaced the half part.

That's a heavy half. That's a long half. Yeah, and I think my fastest marathon now is 3.45. So, like, that progress, dude, running's the best. There are days that I hate it, and there are days that I love it. But it's like recovery, man. like keep coming back it just gets better i love running because i'm sitting out here like looking at this dude who's like six eight and like totally ripped and i'm like i'm like i'm gonna

smoke you tomorrow or smoke you on sunday it's like the great equalizer like dude the six pack doesn't fucking work here what's up bro how are you what's going on yeah what's your goal for sunday all right sick you'll get it easy love it crush you bro Yo, you're good, bro. How are you, man? What's going on? Sunday, yeah. Good to see you, man.

What's up, brother? Good, good to see you. Yeah, so I think in some ways the answer to that question could be the same answer, which is you are enough. You want to start running. You want to start, you know, so. Get out there. Have some fun. What?

He wanted to fight. It's all love. I'm just, you know, I'm messing around. That was hilarious. That was hilarious. What's that? Oh, he got upset because I said I'm going to smoke him. You think he saw that?

I don't know. I think he was saying hi. Yeah. I think he was too. It's all good. It's all love. Well, dude, thanks for coming. Thank you for having me, dude.

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from November 22nd to December 2nd so get on it now and get on it often and trust me you will be thanking me later because these doers rock we are here with someone much faster than me but is also sober. Luke Zerato. So Marathon to Sobriety is your Instagram handle, which is just so fascinating. And you said something to me just before we started filming. You were in the sober closet for five years. How did you get to, like from this guy who's hammered and drinking around the clock to running like sub three marathons?

I mean, I'm just, I'm so fascinated by your story. it's it's been a journey as you know Zach like these things don't happen overnight I was just struggling a lot and I finally was just sick and tired of my own bullshit and I finally owned it and yeah I was I knew I had to change but um the embracing my my journey and embracing my new identity took a really long time because of this like the stigma or what you told you I mean you're so you're Canadian yeah how do Canadians view substance use disorder alcoholism like probably very similar to here like you know it's uh I feel like we've come a long way for sure recently because of like leaders like you and a bunch

of others but I find that there's still a little bit of a stigma around sobriety um so that was my probably my biggest thing was I thought there was something wrong with me um because I couldn't drink like a normal person like I was ashamed actually I would I never talked about the fact that I was sober. I thought it was like a weakness. Like, you're weak because you can't drink alcohol. Yeah. Yeah, there's something in some of the literature that I'm, that, that I work with. It's like the greatest obsession of every alcoholic is to drink like a normal person. Like that line hits me right between the eyes because when I was out there, you know, drinking and drug and I was convinced that I was eventually going to be able to learn to drink like a

sophisticated, never happened. That's right. That's right. We all want, we all convince ourselves that we could moderate and it'll be different next time. I won't cross the line next time. I'll stop at two or three, right? That was me. I, you know, I struggling for a long time, right? I'm half Italian, half French Canadian. So like I grew up with family who socialized a lot, I drank a lot.

So it's like part of my like culture to drink. So to think that I was going to be the sober person, I was like, there's no way. Like how, how am I going to live? How am I going to have friends? How am I going to meet people? Like, how am I going to do that? All that. It was scary.

Yeah, all the lies we tell ourselves, right? And then on the flip side of it, you get a little taste of what is available to you in the sober life. But it took you. So let's backtrack. So you are how old now? So I just turned 40. Okay. Yeah, so we're 80.

A couple 80. That's right. Gray-haired marathon runners here. That's right. And you haven't. drank for how long? So it'll be eight years on December 31st. Hell yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's been a minute. Yeah, it's been good. Okay. And so eight years ago, December 31st or December 15th, what, what did life look like? Like what was going on in Luke's Rada's world?

So I think you asked a lot of my friends, people who knew me well, they would think that, you know, there's nothing wrong with Luke. I looked good. I was in the gym, you know, five, six days a week. I was, like, I looked in better shape, like I was jacked, had way more muscles than I have now as a marathon runner. I had a good job. I had a beautiful girlfriend. It didn't look like anything was wrong with me, right? But in the inside, I was definitely not very happy. I was definitely dealing with a lot of stuff. And it was just... What is this stuff? Is it anxiety, depression, self-doubt? All of that. All the above. A lot of anxiety. A lot of self-doubt, really insecure deep down.

I had, like, created this, like, character where whenever I'd be out socially, I'd be like this, like, crazy, like, standing on chairs, making speeches, like, life of the party, that it was eating me up inside because I was doing things, saying things for to make people laugh or to get people to like me. Yeah. And I wasn't true to who I actually was. Yeah. And I was getting my, and I was just complicating my life.

I was just making my life hard. I was putting myself in really tough situations. Yeah. And then what really accelerated for me was that I got introduced to drugs. So it was no longer like the one or two beers. It was like, that's not enough. There's this thing called cocaine that I got introduced to. And that just really accelerated things.

And that's when I, that's when I was like, wow. Like if you don't change something bad's going to happen. Yeah, the drugs. I mean, like for me, I'm like people always laugh. But I say I'm grateful for drugs because they accelerated my bottom, right? Like they got me to a place very quickly that I don't think I would have gotten with alcohol. This camera, your little girl, Luna, is amazing. And she's ready to take down our cameras, which is a gift of sobriety.

Yeah, yeah. You have this little beautiful girl with us here. It's so special, honestly, Zach. Like, I got sober before she was born. And it's by far my greatest thing that I've done for myself to know that, you know, not a perfect. dad, you know, I still have a temper. I have a lot of things that I need to work on, but like, I don't struggle with alcohol. And it just makes me more consistent.

Like, my bad days aren't as bad. And as a dad, like, that feels pretty good. Yeah. Because I know what it's like, because I had a dad who struggled a lot with alcohol. Yeah, you know, great, great dad, but he struggled with alcohol a lot. Is he still around? No, he passed away, 2014. Alcoholism?

No, he had cancer. Okay. But he struggled a lot with alcohol. And we never talked about it as a family. So I just knew that I didn't want to put my kid through what I was kind of put through. Yeah. So much talk about that your family of origin and breaking the cycle. And is this hereditary?

I mean, I don't really get caught up on is this hereditary? Is it not? I think that like some of us can be predisposed to us, you know, to a substance use disorder or to addiction. But the fact that, you know, your father struggled from. many years and it's no longer with us, but you have now, you know, gotten, it's such a testament, beautiful testimony to him, you know. Exactly. You know, yeah, I think about him a lot, actually.

You do. That he would just, you know, be proud of what I've done, you know, I feel like I'm doing something that I don't, like, he probably wanted to do, but he couldn't do it for different reasons. So that, that makes me feel really good too, right? Um, so yeah. So, so you get sober. you just saw like you wake like like what is your moment of clarity you wake up one morning you

say okay like Luke this party is over yeah I gotta stop so I was in therapy like I mentioned I knew something had to change yeah I couldn't fathom like sobriety like I was always with the intention of being a better drinker right like we were saying moderating better all those things so I was in therapy we were we're really working on moderation and then it was Christmas uh 2016 or just before that a really bad a really bad night just really got into it woke up like like this i need on christmas just before christmas yeah yeah so i went on google and i found another therapist close by because i said i got to go see someone else i got to get a second something else so i sat down with this new person who saw me the same day uh which which was like just a coincidence that i

guess a miracle a miracle thank you it was a miracle we sat down and i was just fresh off this night And within, I don't know, five, ten minutes of me talking, he looked at me straight in the eyes and he says, Luke, you can never be drinking again. Wow. And I was like debating him in the moment. I was like, what do you mean? I'm like, no, giving him a bit of my backstory. Dude, I've had people, like I've gotten phone calls from people that I know that I love, strangers, whatever, and I will go to the hospital and they will be in the hospital bed and they will be coming out of an overdose that could have killed them. And they will look me straight in the eye and say,

I think I can safely do drugs. Yeah. I don't need to go to rehab. And that is the delusion. Like that's why this thing is so, to your point, like, you're coming off this night where you are clearly very embarrassed. Yep. Filled with shame. And you're going to tell this therapist who is a professional, who knows what they're doing, that you can drink.

That's right. So I was debating him. Yeah. But then there was something about the conversation and just I was at a point. We talk a lot about, you know, being ready. Like you're not ready until you're ready. Because I had fucked up just enough. Yeah.

And then I went back in my car after that session, and I couldn't stop crying. I could not stop crying. I knew there was something that he said that was true. So that's when my mind opened up to not drinking. He put me into a group session, a couple group sessions through CAMH in Toronto. Yeah. Center of Addiction and Mental Health. I kind of saw what I needed to see.

And then from then on I said, okay, I'm going to give this. shot but I had like ego I had a lot of things and I I did it I did it on my own I didn't do any programs I literally rod dog that by myself and I made it way harder for myself than it probably needed to be right and I and I did that for five years because you kept it a secret secret nobody knew other than you know close family close friends colleagues nobody knew when you but like and like no one at like when you weren't going out to the bar and getting on the tables and screaming like no one was asking either I yeah I was I would not go.

I was getting good at not going, which I think was helped me stay sober. I kind of wasn't going. But then I'd make excuses. I'd say I can't drink because of this, because of that. I'm on a, whatever I would say. I would never come out and say, no, I've been, you know, I'm sober or I'm not drinking. I never ever did that because I was just embarrassed.

Like, I never want, like, who wants to be sober, I thought? Chris, what's up, bro? I'm saying, by, I'm saying hello. My buddy, Chris just, uh, came. into the eyesight and uh he's one of our we're talking to a bunch of our runners you good bro you got your you got your good man you look good i got smile he's excited everyone's smiling everyone's pumped up everyone's so pumped yeah you're gonna finish yeah yeah yeah yeah cool you come to the shakeout or no yeah yeah we'll see a party yeah later later bro i love runners hey they're

just like everyone's like just so positive dude everyone's got a story and that so Chris Callahan, who just stopped by here. And Chris is a brother-in-law of someone from our local recovery community who was adored and loved and, you know, sadly ended up, you know, losing his battle with mental health. And Will Hardigan was his name. And Will, I mean, he helped more people than anyone. And so Chris is running in his honor this year. Oh, beautiful.

Those are the stories, man, that we get to tell. That's amazing. You know, like yours. That's amazing, man. So, all right, so after five years, and then when does this whole, so like for those of you who are listening, Luke has this amazing Instagram handle, which are two of my favorite things. It's marathons and it's sobriety. And, you know, you're sober eight years now. You're running all these marathons, but you're putting out this content that people seem to be really relating to.

Like, when do you decide to go from, you know, sober guy in the sober closet to social media influence? Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, there's something about like living in that shame and just not being proud of my sober journey. It was hard. I didn't, I didn't like that. And there was something about the anniversary, I think, because it was right on the time I was hitting five years of sobriety. I had just picked up long distance running and I had just trained a lot and I had just qualified for the Boston Marathon. So I was, I was kind of having a bit of a thought and I was like, Luke, be proud of yourself for a second. You got sober.

You made some incredible changes. You got into a sport, running. You qualified for this big race. Like, be proud of yourself. Yeah. Be proud of yourself. So I was ready to let people know. Had you run before you got sober?

No, not at all. Wow. I play a lot of sports, played hockey and stuff. But I hated running. Canadians are best, bro. Canadians are sick athletes, too. Like, my buddy played Blake, you know, Moines. He's a hockey guy.

And they're just so nice and kind, but you get on the feel with them, and they will rip your, they will rip. throw it out, you know, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So I had just qualified it and all these things and I was like, I'm ready to share. So I was like, how do I do that? So the only way, the scariest way I thought of doing that was to do it on LinkedIn. So at the time, I worked for a big global tech company. Oh, you went straight to LinkedIn. I went straight to LinkedIn. I didn't even go to the I didn't go to the IG. This guy went to LinkedIn, scared like second guess myself going back and forth.

Hit post, don't hit post. Like, because nobody really knew my office and my thought and all those things, right? With the whole corporate. Anyway, so I shared my, I did like a three-paragraph thing. I had a picture of my daughter on my lap holding a five-year sober sign with the qualification of Boston. I hit post. Didn't really think much. I woke up the next morning and it had just was getting shared, reshared on LinkedIn.

And I woke up. I was like, holy, like, I didn't expect that. I didn't do that to go viral. I just did that to get it off my chest to, like, free myself from my, like, just get it out there. Leave it to a sober alcoholic to go viral on LinkedIn, to get their influencing career started. That's legendary, dude. That is legendary. And then after that, I was like, holy, there's something here.

Yeah. There's people who were messaging me that I had never met, old friends, old teachers, a lot. Like, people related to what I was doing, either personally or through somebody. So in that moment, I was like, okay, I should probably document or share a bit about what I've been through. And I was like, what better way to do that than on Instagram? So I started just sharing, you know, some of my story, but I incorporated running because I didn't want it to just be sober because I thought that would be boring. People would relate. Well, I mean, dude, you were on it.

I mean, you had it nailed. That's the shit we talk about all the time. It's like, if we're just talking about sobriety and we're just saying like, hey, like we're going to be convinced and convincing other people that might need help. that this life is boring and that we can't afford that's how we lose people that's right yeah exactly yeah exactly exactly so the running that i discovered on the journey i just created this whole sense of like purpose for me i started identifying as this sober marathoner i you know identifying as a sober dad you know as a sober husband these this has became part of my identity it took me five years to form that identity but it doesn't need to take anybody

five years to do that you could do that you know a lot faster than five years so that was another part of the reason why I was so excited to share because I wanted people to you know either be inspired or to learn from kind of my mistakes and to maybe look at things a bit differently and not look at sobriety as like we're saying boring for losers and all these things it's actually it's actually a superpower like it makes me who I am yeah like I'm way more confident in who I am because of this journey. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before, I needed alcohol to, like, talk to anybody.

If I was sitting here with you, I'd be like, oh, my God, I need to have some drinks before I come sit down with Zach. But now it's like, I've learned that kind of by showing up for myself. So is it safe to say, I love all this. And, like, in a lot of ways, I'm grateful because even for me, you know, the way that I try to share about it, it can get confused with some of this other stuff that I'm involved in, right? Like, like, I was on reality, tell, like, whatever.

But you're just a guy who has leaned into your sobriety. And it appears to me, like, your interest is just to let people know that they can do this. Exactly. Exactly. Because, you know, look. And that's going to be a lot more relatable for like, people who might not relate to me. They're going to relate to you. No, they can relate to you, Zach.

A hundred percent they can relate to you. And actually, there's something. So I'm really excited, obviously, for a lot of reasons to be chatting. with you to be running with you but I remember I specifically remember watching your show I'm a huge fan of The Bachelor of my wife and I we love we love it it's our garbage TV I love it we love the drama like it's fun right it's a nice escape from reality so we watch the show and I remember you coming out and talking about your story about your sober journey at the time I was in the closet so here I am watching this this guy on TV talking about his journey I was just like holy shit

Like I was thinking of myself like wow that takes a lot of courage to do that and I was just like wow and how confident you looked sharing that story and how you were like living that life it was like for me was like I want to be proud of myself too that I'm sober so when I see people like you doing the thing like showing up owning it you know having this great life for yourself it's very inspiring I needed that today. man like I forget you know I forget that like because you know how it is you tell your story so much you do it so much and then like to hear you sit here and say like I'm not trying to have a God complex here say that I made you but like if I gave you a little bit of a nudge you gave me that hope to go yes and then start this account which now has like a couple hundred thousand

followers or whatever you have on social media and and all those but you saved some lives it's safe to say you know what and I've heard you say this before It's not about the numbers. It's not about the numbers. It's like one person. It truly is, right? It's like, I know I've had people, a couple people reach out to me like, I made a difference

in their life. And it's like, we know you've done that X times. Yeah. It's an amazing feeling. And that whole like giving back, you know, helping others fuels me. It gives me way more, like I feel way more fulfilled in that process by connecting with people who are identifying with it, making change. change, then, like, you know, working in a corporate and, you know, chasing the dollar

bills at a corporate thing, right? It just gives a lot of purpose. And it's helped me stay sober. Because as we know, just because we have X days doesn't mean, hey, we got all figured out now. Yeah. We're golden, right? We still need to show up by, but, like, giving back, like, it helps keep me sober.

Keeps me on the right path. Yeah. So is this, is this your livelihood? Is this your full time? Like, is this, is this so, it's not at the moment. Yeah, but that is 100% of goal. That's a dream. Yeah.

Living in Toronto, it's really expensive as it is New York. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I got a young family, you know, the wife wants to, the, we're just signing up. We're just closing on a bigger house, bigger mortgage. So it's scary. It's really scary. So right now, I'm doing a lot of things. I'm working full time.

I got my coaching business. You know, I'm doing my content. You know, there's a lot of things that I'm doing. What's the coaching business? Can you talk a little bit more about that? I'm doing alcohol-free life coach. Okay. So I do group coaching and I also do one-on-one coaching just to help people, you know, find

things within themselves and just to give them that support and that encouragement. I love it. So I do it in group and I do a one-on-one. And then the content is just- Is that virtually or are they coming to see you? Virtually. Everything's virtually. All on Zoom. And I'm meeting everyone on Instagram.

And I also do, I have a run club that I lead in Toronto called the Sober Strider Run Club. Amazing. That's been a huge, it's been an amazing thing. an amazing thing, bringing people together who, very similar to you, who aren't really runners, they don't identify as runners. So just making it more inclusive, getting people together

and also socially. There's people in the U.S., we've got people in Europe who are part of our club on Strava and show up. And that's given me so much life. Unbelievable. That's the highlight of everything I'm doing, I think, is the run club

and bringing people together and introducing them to this thing called running. and how incredible it is. Yeah, there's a lot, look, there's a lot of ways that people kind of get and stay sober and I don't judge. I mean, like, for me, like, I went to rehab for a long time and then, you know, ended up in a 12-step fellowship, and that's, you know, a lot of what I still do today, and I've been somewhat open about that, but what I tell people early on is, like,

when you're getting sober, you're trying to make a change. It is very hard, and you did it alone for five years, which is you're a miracle. No, yeah. But the community is everything. If you're not, if you're, if you're, and, and the good news is there's more and more groups coming about that isn't just focused on, you know, sitting in a church basement and talking about your feelings. Like you're, you're getting these sober folks out or people that maybe want to get sober, sober, curious. Yes. Starting to move a little bit.

And that little action can can prove to them that like maybe there's hope here. Exactly. Yeah. That's how I look at. I'm not, we're not here. You're not here either to convince anybody. No, that's not our job. It doesn't work, right?

And it doesn't work. You need to, like, want to make change for yourself. But, you know, if I can get somebody to, like, look closer at their relationship with alcohol, revaluate. I'm not saying, go completely sober, maybe. Maybe just be more mindful of your drinking. That's a great thing. That's a, it's not, I don't look at it black or white. It's not sober versus not sober.

That's not what it is. it's what works for you for me I know my truth I cannot touch alcohol I just it's not worth it it's not worth it it's easier to have zero than it is to stop at one or two

every once in a while so if I can just get people to just look at it a bit differently that's amazing that's an incredible thing and maybe some people will hear our stories hear your story hear my story and maybe they'll be like you know what maybe I can't be drinking either

because what I'm doing to myself is not sustainable. I'm getting in more fights with my loved ones. At work, I'm not bringing my best to the office. I don't feel good all the time. Those types of things are important to think about. Yeah. No, dude, it's incredible. When did you know, I mean, you did the LinkedIn thing,

and then obviously you went over to Instagram. Like, when did you know that, like, was it pretty immediate that you knew people were going to, like, Because when the content kind of starts to go, it's a crazy feeling, right? Yeah. Yeah, I saw a lot of, you know, some people messaging me that they resonated a lot with my story. Because what we see a lot in recovery and I have so much respect, so much respect for everyone on the journey, right? But especially those who have been through real adversity, like real rock bottom and they're able to, you know, course correct.

Like that takes so much courage and strength, like all the respect in the world. But for me, yes, I had a bottom, but it wasn't maybe as far along as some people. So that's what I was, I thought there was maybe some, maybe not missing, but not spoken about as much as that people can make changes without hitting, making their life more complicated. Yes, I was into drugs. Yes, I hit very close to a bottom. But I still had a job from the outside. I still look normal. You know what I mean?

So I wanted to really have people relate. And then when I saw people relating to that part of them, My story, that's when I knew that I wanted to keep sharing, keep sharing, keep connecting. Because, yeah, it's great to see that come back. But really, it keeps me on the path. Yeah. Right? No, I mean, it's an unbelievable story.

I think that, you know, seeing someone like yourself, very well-spoken, very passionate, very enthusiastic. but also at the same time sharing this story and I think about this a lot with therapy it's like people will question why to go to therapy and for you it was that kind of like that was your moment of clarity right you got out of that session and to think of you in your car in Toronto crying these tears

you know is so powerful and that's kind of the message that tells me or tells the world that like you know you're worth it you're worth it that's right worth it uh okay so on to bigger and better things sunday first new york first what is your what i mean so like we're talking to a real runner here guys we're not talking to a guy who's going to go out and pound a five hour marathon so

your best is like a 250 250 yeah okay you've qualified for boston you've run six or seven of these things you got a little injury going on what's the plan for sunday are you out there to enjoy it are you know like what is the deal you know what what is the deal you know what to, yeah, so I'm going to obviously give it my best goal, right? I'm always, you know, hard on. We're always hard on ourselves. We want to push the limit. But what I'm most excited about this time, because this is my seventh marathon,

is to do it with a community of like-minded people, with release, and to have raised money. I have never done a charity before. Yeah. I was terrified to join because I was worried I wasn't going to, like, it's a lot of money you got to raise. It's a commitment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm most excited about to do it for something bigger than my time. Like at the end of the day, who cares about my time?

I care. No one else cares. Right. But now this, doing it with release, doing it for the recovery, people struggling, the message that it provides. That's what I'm doing it for. So that's what I'm excited about. You're going to feel something out there tomorrow, dude. I'm sure you're going to come out of this weekend.

You're going to go back to Toronto and you're going to start your own nonprofit. If something's going to come of this, like something bigger, you know, with your run club because the the energy at our shakeout run tomorrow morning just in this conversation on the course Sunday and then at our after party you're going to feel something that you may not have felt before so I can't wait buckle up I can't wait yeah I can't wait and yeah I'm obviously going to be there at the shakeout I can't wait to run like with the team and pick up the the swag and it's just it's really electric you know like I can already feel it here just in the expo yeah it's amazing. Well, dude, I'm sorry we don't have a little more time to dig deep into the nitty gritty,

but we will get you back on. I appreciate you stopping by. Like sitting here, like the view I have just so people know is like, I am talking to Luke, but right over his shoulders, just beautiful wife and child, which is like that's why the stories of recovery, they just, they never get old. They never get old. So thank you for coming and good luck on Sunday, brother. Zach, thanks for everything you're doing, honestly. You're building an incredible community. You're doing a lot of good and I'm glad that I was able to kind of hit one nudge maybe within you like to remind you the impact you're making because like you're saying you're you're sometimes it feels like you're maybe on autopilot a bit right you're saying the story so much and like is it actually

making a difference like 1,000% it is thank you I'm glad I was able to do that a little bit for you today but thanks for having me a part of release thanks for having me here thanks for inspiring me man you're super down to earth and you're just a great guy so pleasure meeting you man good shit thanks for having you thank you Luke I have been harder and hard to impress and be a fanboy as life has moved on. But today's guest or this segment is a man that I am a fanboy of because of the organization that he is the CEO of New York Roadrunners, CEO Rob Simmelcare. After release, New York Roadrunners is my favorite organization in the world.

Rob, thanks for giving us some time. Zach, it's awesome to be with you. And yeah, the only reason to be a fanboy of me is New York Roadrunners because We have 250 plus people who are making this magic happen that we are all sitting in the middle of right now, the Expo of the TCS New York City Marathon. So it's really great to be with you. And we love partnering with your organization and the cause that you have and the impact that you make. So I'm thrilled to be sitting down with you. Yeah, I appreciate that.

And I was looking, so this is my 10th. I'm running, it's a decade. It's 10 New York City marathons for me. And I was looking at the picture of our charity team. The first year I ran, there was about 12 of us. And we have over 100 runners this year, and that's in large part. Because if your support and the entire organization's support, so we're grateful. This is your second marathon as CEO.

More anxious, less anxious, better sense of what's going to happen? a lot better sense of kind of what's in store, you know, day in and day out. You talk about drinking from a fire hose. I mean, this is such a massive event. It takes over the city of New York, which is a hard thing to do because this city is, you know, the greatest city in the world. And so there's so much energy and attention around it. And obviously there's so many demands, not just on race day, but really for like a week and change leading up to it. So yeah, last year I was just like on a roller coaster and I didn't even know what the next drop was going to be, what the next term was going to be. Now I have a little more sense of it, but at the same time it's still just a massive undertaking for our team.

And, you know, I'm very much in awe of our team and of all the partners that we have in the city and beyond that help us make this happen because it takes tens of thousands of people. Yeah, from all kinds of roles, from our staff to, you know, NYPD and fire and all the folks in the city that we need to put this on, to our partners and all the amazing things they do. You walk around this expo and the experience they're giving our runners and all of these booze to have an incredible time. And then there's our charity partners, our media partners. I mean, it just goes on and on. It really is a massive, massive undertaking. Yeah, I always say for me it's like this is my, this is my New Year's Day. Like this is my yearly cleanse.

I run the marathon and I really, I have a spiritual experience. And so for me, I know why the New York City Marathon is so meaningful. Our organization hopes to raise close to a million dollars for people that are struggling with substance use disorder or mental health. It's also just the day, the one day, and you alluded to this, the one day of the year, where I feel like New York City is aligned. There's no politics, even though there's going to be an electric next Tuesday. Like, there's no politics. There's no race, religion.

Like, everyone is cheering for those 50,000 plus runners. And so I know my why for you as such an accomplished person, having worked in media and an entrepreneur. Why did you choose New York Roadrunners? Why did you come to this organization? You know, in life, Zach, I think. we're always looking for the perfect balance, right? Between work that gets us, you know, the rewards we need from working, right? I mean, we all need to make a living. We need to put

food on the table for ourselves, our loved ones, and all of that. But then we also want work that rewards us in other ways as well, spiritual ways, ways that make us feel like we're making a positive contribution and making, you know, I know it's a cliche, but quote-unquote the world a better place, right, doing something. And I spent my whole career doing that. I mean, I worked in sports for a long time on the for-profit side. I worked in media. And it was close to that because sports makes people happy, right? And working on a broadcast of the Olympics or working on a new sports property, whatever, I knew it was good because I knew it was like entertaining people. But, you know, it was still a for-profit enterprise,

and we're trying to make as much money as we can and there's nothing wrong with that. That was great. But I was still looking for that perfect balance, right, between something I loved sports and being active and running. I had run two marathons before I came here. New York Marathons. Three now. We just did Berlin for those who are listening.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so to join an organization like New York Roadrunners, which has this mission, right? We're a nonprofit organization. We have a mission to, to build healthier lives and stronger communities through the transformative power of running, you know about that more than, better than anyone. Yes.

I just thought, wow, what a perfect balance between the business skills that I've developed in my career that I can bring to a position as CEO around an organization like this and my desire to really make an impact. And also, by the way, in my home city, you know, the city I was born in, where my family's been for many generations. So the ability to make that kind of impact generally, and then especially here in New York, it's just made it kind of a dream job for me,

and I've been really privileged to have it. So I'm going to pivot to my purpose and my passion, which is I believe right now that we are, we're in a loneliness, loneliness epidemic, right? So when I think about overdose numbers and deaths by suicide, those folks, when we lose them, they're dying alone. And so much of what New York Roadrunners does is build community, which leads me to mental health. Having worked in sports for a large portion of your career, we're starting to see guys like Damar de Rosen, who was an NBA star, talk about his mental health. And when you think of running, you immediately probably go towards the physical, right?

Are you guys paying attention to mental health? Is it something that you're like, can you speak to what, how roadrunners approaches that? Because I feel like it's such a important topic in our world, obviously to me. But I'm just curious what you guys are seeing or hearing or one of the first things I said. I think the first interview I gave when I was named CEO was with a reporter. And I talked about mental health and said that I actually really do believe, that New York Roadrunners is a mental health organization. Wow.

It's not exactly the right way to put it because we don't provide therapy, actual therapy. We don't have psychiatrists. We don't prescribe medication. We don't do any of the things that people in the mental health industry do, per se. But I knew, from my own experience, that mental health is the number one thing that draws people to our sport and to running.

And I know, Zach, that if you and I walked around this expo, and we asked 100 people, why do you run? I know the number one answer we would get in some form or other would be mental health, the stress relief, the period. And this is family feud. The number one answer is the number one answer. I have no doubt about it. I know because I go around and I ask you people.

Yeah. And so there's clearly a connection, right? And there's scientists who can talk about the mind-body connection and all of the, you know, the endorphins and all the things we get that make us feel physically better by running. So there's that side of it. But then there's also the community side of it. And you mentioned the loneliness epidemic.

And, you know, the U.S. Surgeon General, right, came out and said that loneliness is a public health crisis in the United States. And it's killing people. Yes. It's really killing people. It's killing them in different ways. Maybe it's because they start becoming addicted to substances because of loneliness. Or, you know, they get depressed and are at risk of suicide because of loneliness.

And what we've seen is that a lot of people started running during the pandemic because there wasn't anything else they could do. Their gym was closed. They couldn't, you know, do the things they were doing to stay in shape. So they started running, but they stayed with it because of the communities that they've connected with. They've joined a running club, a crew, their company or business has a little running team. Like they really have connected to other people through running. And you don't think of running as a team sport, right?

You go out and you run the race yourself. Yeah. But you run together so many ways and you run better when we run together as well. So I really think that both the physical and the mental side of it all come together when people run as part of a community. Yeah, I agree. I mean, like, for me, as someone who's been, you know, I was a heroin addict and coming out of that experience, I had to find community, right? And I found that in my recovery community, and I found that in the running community. And it's our, it's my duty.

It's my life's purpose to try and pay that forward. And I'll say, last year, you guys had asked me to participate in a panel, the lead-up to Marathon Week. And one of the young men in the crowd hunted me down afterwards and told me some of his struggles. And, you know, our foundation was able to get him some therapy and get him some help. And he's doing a little bit better. And so we never really know, but I do know that you sitting here as the CEO of Roadrunners and saying, this is really a mental health organization. I believe that.

And I hope other people listening know that. And you know, you mentioned your history and what it meant for you to find a community to overcome your addiction. Yep. And there's another word that I use a lot when it comes to runners coming together, but I also know, I don't work in this space, but I know when it comes to addiction recovery is that word accountability, right? having a community, a group of peers to hold you accountable, whether it's accountable to showing up for that training run, right, that's going to help get you ready for whatever your goal is

and running, a marathon you want to run, whatever, or the accountability you get when you're part of a group that's, you know, trying to keep each other sober, right? Trying to keep each other from relapsing. Like accountability is such an important part of life, and we get it from other people. And so that's why I'm such a fan of these communities that have come together. And there are so many of them that have actually combined addiction recovery and running, including yours. Yeah, no.

I mean, and that's our approach to this whole thing is that we don't, we're not necessarily watching our watches. We're not necessarily competing for times. There are definitely run clubs in the city that do that. And we support them and they support us. But for us, it's really about that connectivity. because to your point, coming out of COVID, a lot of people started running, and I don't think they really understood that this is actually, like you said, a community or can be a community event.

So I know I'm the person standing between you and lunch, and you are incredibly busy, so I want to be mindful of your time. All good. But let's just talk about Sunday for a moment. You're going to be there. You're going to be at the start line. You're going to be wishing all these runners off. assuming all goes well which it will

I'm a positive guy when your head hits a pillow on Sunday night what what do you want to look back on on Sunday and feel like what is your goal what is your dream for the marathon I love that question Zach

for me it all first and foremost comes down to everybody having a safe day right we want everyone to have a safe day, a positive day. We put so much of our emphasis on the well-being and the safety of our runners. It's a huge sense of responsibility that we feel as we send 54,000 people across the Verrazana Ridge through five boroughs of New York and to finish in Central Park.

So that first and foremost is what success looks like for me, is everybody who started, you know, finishing and those who don't finish for whatever reason, being safe, wherever they are. So that's first and foremost. Then I think beyond that, Zach, there are so many stories crossing that finish line. And it's not possible for me to know them all. But they're all special and unique. And if I just grabbed 10 random people from this expo who are carrying bibs around, and I just put them in front of a microphone right now

and interviewed them like you're interviewing me. Yes. I would find some incredible inspiration in every single one of the stories that's walking around this place. And so what I hope to do and what I really hope our organization can do is to get as many of those stories told as possible

because it's in the hearing of those stories. that we inspire 50,000 more people to sign up and to want to run, whether it's run a 5K or a half marathon or a marathon. And that's such a big part of what we do is that storytelling that leads to that inspiration that leads to that next generation of runner. So I just want to know as many of them as I can. And I can only do that by, you know, I walk around and just ask them sometimes why. Yeah.

Why are you running? So beautiful. And that leads perfectly into my last question, which you just ran Berlin with Coach Roberto, right? You guys, I saw, you guys were dialed in. I mean, you stayed on track, and I think you ended up having a good day out there, right? I had a PR by one minute. Amazing. And it was an 11-year-old PR, so I felt pretty good about that.

Amazing. I've only run three marathons. You know, people think I probably run 30 marathons because of my job. I'm actually really like a 10-K guy. Maybe I'll stretch out to a half marathon. So a marathon is a big undertaking. for me, but I was very happy. So I'll leave you with this. What do you tell the runner? The story that we hear all the time, I hate running. I can't run. I'm never going to be a runner. I'm

never going to be a marathon. The person that's scared to start, what do you tell, what do you tell them? Well, I think there's two different things I might say, depending on what their level of desire is. If they are like, I'm not a runner, never want to be a runner, never want to be a runner, I'm like, that's okay. You don't have to be a runner. You can be physically active and get the benefits in other ways. Go ride a bike or do yoga or lift weights. There's lots of great things out there.

So it doesn't have to be running. But for the ones who I can tell maybe there's a little spark in them that they want to run, right? And I meet a lot of them here because they're oftentimes with a friend. Yep. Okay, they're like the supporter or the spouse or the coworker of someone running. and they say they're not a runner but I can kind of see him like I think maybe you want to be a runner

and what I tell them is to go outside and run down the block or run one lap around a track in their neighborhood right and guess what you're a runner now right you just ran you're a runner and then next time okay run

a half a mile run a three quarters of a mile run a lap run a mile right and maybe take as any breaks as you want. Walk, then run, then walk, then run. And what happens is they start to run a little farther each time, a little farther each time between those walks. And then next thing you know, they're not walking at all. And they're running a 5K and a 10K. And by the way, it's perfectly great to run a mile, a 5K and never run more than that. You don't have to run marathons. I try to tell people this all the time. Marathons are this huge business and they're great,

you don't have to run a marathon to be a runner. But start small, bite off something you can chew because, you know, you look at the mountain and you think I can never get to the peak. And you can't if you just sit there and you stare at the peak. But take that first step, right? The journey of a million miles starts with a single step and then see where you want it to take you. Right. Ladies and gentlemen, this was such a treat to have Rob Simulkar with us today.

He is so busy. He's got so much responsibility for him to stop by and say hello to me. knowing that our pride and our passion, our purpose, is mental health, just means the world. It tells me that we're making a difference. So, Rob, good luck this weekend. I know you're looking forward to your bed on Sunday night, but there's going to be a lot of magic that happens between now and then. So thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Zach.

Thank you for what you're doing. You're doing incredible work. I want to wish all of your runners, the best of luck. And I hope to see a lot of them at the finish line. You'll see you, man. Flying the flag. Thanks, Rob. Good stuff, man.

Thank you. All right. So our last little runner, Spotlight, Sober, Journey guest is a brother of mine, a friend of mine. This guy is just a gem. Sean McGowan, how the hell are you? I'm doing fantastic, man. I'm just sitting here watching all these beautiful faces walk around this expo, and I'm just stoked to be a part of this community, this running community,

and be running for release recovery on Sunday for my fourth marathon. fourth marathon for Sean and we're going to get into that but I know the listeners here appreciate the story so I met Sean a couple years ago we work in the field together he works at High Watch Treatment Centers which is doing an amazing work up in Connecticut they also have a program in in Jersey now and Sean is really the glue there don't don't let his boss hear this but he he is like the guy there making sure every patient gets the help that they need. Seven and a half years sober.

What was going on eight years ago? A lot of unmanageability, my friend. I was a tenured heroin addict. And for years, I put my parents and my family and all the ones that loved me through heartache. And I didn't think that there was ever a way out, man. And March 17th of 2017, I entered into my six treatment center. and finally surrendered to this disease and not trying to figure it out on my own. And I've been on that journey ever since, man.

And it's been an amazing journey. It's been an amazing opportunity. And I'm just grateful to be sober today and to have the ability to be here right now with you. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I think I'm with you. I'm looking around. And I want to talk about heroin, right?

I want to talk about heroin because I'm a heroin addict. You're a heroin addict. people are probably looking at us in the high we got people waving to us we got people walking around this expo and they have no idea that we're two men in recovery how did you end up doing heroin what got you to that point and how do we normalize it for the listener that that heroin isn't like this deep dirty word because we're two guys here that are doing great work in the world it's just part of our story. Yeah, man. It all started for me. Athletics was always a big part of my journey, and I wasn't good enough to be a collegiate athlete. So I went away to college at 18 years old

with a little bit of history of alcohol use and marijuana use, and I shortly was introduced to opiates. I had no idea what opiates was. I didn't realize we could have physical withdrawals from opiates. I remember a dormmate in my college dorm referred to him as painkillers, and I had never heard that word in my entire life. And he was using them one day and looked at me enjoying him. And I asked him, I said, I want to try that, man. I want to look like you look right now. I want to feel like you feel like right now.

And that's where my journey with opiates really started. And for a period of time, it was somewhat manageable. I got through college and until it wasn't anymore. Well, that's the thing that people like, I think the common folk has a surgery and they take opioids and they're like, I got sick. for me the opiates worked for a long time until they didn't yeah right so and i referred to as opiates as the universal drug man if i needed to get up and go to class if i needed to clean my dorm if i needed to go play athletics if i needed to get the courage to talk to someone that i didn't want to talk to

it worked in every angle and that was the only thing i had found throughout the 18 years of my life that seemed to work in such a versatility type of role so i called it the universal drug man yeah yeah So you're in college, you start taking pain killers, you're kind of making, do you graduate college? I did. It took me six and a half years. I was on that plan, but eventually I did. I took my final exam after shooting up in the parking lot and going in and, you know, eventually graduated three colleges later, but I got the degree. So six and a half years, you're shooting heroin before you're final, but you get it done. So you graduate. In one hand, you have your diploma, and in your other hand, you have a bundle of dope. Mm-hmm. What happens next? What happens next is, you know, I was able to, with my skill set, kind of jump into the workforce and got introduced into the professional industry of working as an adult because that was what I was supposed to do. And I was fortunate enough to land a job at Coca-Cola, North America. And I had almost six years there until they kindly asked me to leave. My drug use had gotten significant. The arrest started. started to pile up. I had felony possession charges and DUIs now. And there was no managing my

job and managing my drug addiction. The drug addiction became full bore. And that was my daily commitment. How do I wake up every morning? Get what I need to get. And I'll step over anyone to do that until it didn't work anymore. When did you make the jump from like painkillers to heroin and then and then using it becoming an IV user? Yeah. So I'd gotten out of treatment for, I believe it was the fourth time. I went to a treatment center in Pennsylvania and I was moving down to the Washington, D.C. area. And I was introduced to some guys in the suburbs of Baltimore. And it was right around the time when oxycodone and roxies and all that kind of, and oxy cotton had started to phase out and they just weren't as accessible anymore. And these guys that I met at this treatment center

and said, man, you can get the same feeling for half the price. And that's where my journey started. And I was introduced. I had already been an intravenous drug user via Oxycontin, but the heroin really ramped up as that was really the only thing that I could get. Right. And that's, I'm happy you mention that because when I think about my story, you know, for me, the light really went on when I was lying in a hospital bed and this nurse pretty much shot me up. You know, she put morphine or whatever it is into my IV and hit the button. And all of a sudden, I'm like, there's no way after a brain surgery that I should feel this good. And then years later, I came back to that feeling when I found heroin. And I feel like it's interesting. I was out Saturday night with

Blake and the boys. And we were at a cigar bar. Blake's a friend of ours. And we were talking to these girls that came over to us and they were dressed up for Halloween. And they were very curious about our story and why we weren't drinking and we went like we went full throttle we were telling them we're heroin addicts and their their initial reaction was oh my god i'm so sorry and i said to her like why are you sorry this is the best thing that ever happened to me and so we live in a culture where heroin is this dirty word but people are dying and and and it's one of my missions to talk to guys like you so that our listeners can hear a heroin addict who is now doing so much with their with their lives so when when when do you finally like I know there's a lot

of wreckage I know you probably made a lot of bad decisions some of which you might not be proud of but when do you get that moment of clarity like is it in that six treatment center where you just say I'm done I was I was going to treatment in California for what I didn't know at that time would be hopefully God willing my last time I ever have to enter into a rehabilitation center but I was driving across the country with my 20 year old sister who was bringing me to that treatment center and uh you know this mental obsession of like i can't do this again i don't want to do this again uh was with me throughout the first few days of the trip and i get to salt lake city man and like my brain and my mind and this obsession just goes in a different direction sean you know right

you can do this one more time sean you're going to treatment tomorrow right you can you deserve to do this one more time and it was like that i told my sister at the hotel i said i'm going to get a haircut, and I was out, and I was Googling, where can I find heroin in downtown Salt Lake City? And this spiritual experience that I had was in this gas station in downtown Salt Lake City, right across from this park where I could have copped heroin. And I remember going in to get a phone charger coming back out to my car, and I saw three homeless guys, and they were laid up against the side of the gas station. I said, you know what? I can make a decision to go be with these guys and vanish off this planet. No one's ever got to worry about me again, or I can drive back

up this hill to this hotel and I can go into treatment one more time and try to change my life. And I'm telling you, Zach, I said, I don't remember turning the ignition of that key and I don't remember putting it in reverse. But next thing I knew, I was driving back up to that hotel and I went into treatment the next day. And I've never been in that situation ever again, ever since then. Oh, my God. I got chills hearing that.

I love it because so many people share their stories and, you know, in our work in behavioral healthcare there's great doctors and therapists and and and now there's medication assisted treatment and there's all different types of ways to to kind of get sober like as we like to call it but sometimes it has to come from outside of us you know sometimes it has to come from the universe and I believe that shit like I believe that shit full stop and I hate to think what would happen if you if you didn't make that decision or that that moment didn't happen because the life that you've built and the man that you've become is not that you're not just inspiring to me, but it's inspiring to the world.

So talk about that. You enter into treatment. How long are you in treatment? What worked for you? Yeah, I was on the long-term plan, man. I was a short-term treatment guy. My college degree and my life experience always took me out of treatment because I thought I knew better. And I got to thank my mom.

And we got to thank the families in this addiction because I called my mom from that detox. And I said, Mom, I need you to take care of my car. I got all these citations. I need you to send me cigarettes, I need you to do that. She says, Sean, I'm done. She goes, I've been on this bus for 10 years. I've hopped off the bus. So no longer am I going to enable this disease anymore

because I can't watch you kill yourself anymore. And my initial reaction was like, you're leaving me to dry. I'm isolated, right? I'm scared and you're leaving me out here to dry. But like, that was the best thing that could have ever been sent to me. And to this day, I thank my mom, because without her, I still would have been running the show. And I woke up the next morning and I felt alone.

and I needed to feel alone. And I dove into that six-month treatment program. And I was corralled by people that loved me even when I didn't love myself. And that's where the journey really started. But that magic happened with that conversation with my mom. Yeah. Is your mom still around? She's coming tomorrow.

Okay. My brother's running this race. And it's a family affair, man. So beautiful. That's so beautiful. Shout out to all the moms. Shout out to my mom. Your mom.

They have such a hard job. There's no playbook for a mother. And most of my listeners are moms. They are women. They are people that listen because they're trying to find some hope. They're trying to find a reason to believe that their son can be the next Sean or their son can be the next Zach. And so I love that. I love that shout out.

You do treatment for six months. When I think of you, I think of a guy who's fearless. You don't give a shit what people think of your recovery because it is the most important thing in your life. at what point did you know that you were not only going to get sober, but you were going to really build a life around this? Yeah, it's when I really got comfortable in my own skin, and I thank good sponsorship and a 12-step fellowship because my recovery started out slow, man.

I still wanted to do it my way. I was engaging in treatment, but I wasn't engaging in anything else. It was all about me. I wasn't about helping other people. I was the guy in groups who played devil's advocates or whatever the professional was saying. And I woke up, like, 62 days sober wanted to kill myself. Yeah.

I'd never felt that before. And I'm like, hey, I'm sober sitting here. I should feel better. But I'm not doing anything to progress my recovery. And my cousin, who had been four years in the program at the time, shout out to him. He changed my life, or at least was a part of it. He brought me to a serious meeting with serious guys and told me to get a serious sponsor. And I walked up to that guy at the end of the meeting.

And I said, man, I can't feel like I am anymore. He said, call me tomorrow at 1215. and call this AA hotline if you get loaded. I called that guy the next day and that's where my journey started. That's where the journey of getting out of myself started. And from there, I've been on fire for recovery, man. Yeah.

It's so crazy because it's the one thing on this planet where I believe the human beings that are most equipped to help people like us are the ones that have been through it. You know, and that's similar to my story. You know, like there's been people in my journey over the past 13 years who have lifted me up when when I had no hope, right? And I didn't see a future. And so now you're in recovery and you make this plunge to decide to work in the field.

You're working at High Watch now. Can you tell the listeners because you're someone that believes so much in the work you do. And I've watched you've grown. And I'm excited to watch you to continue to grow. We need leaders like you in this field. why High Watch? What does High Watch do? It's a treatment center in Connecticut. We work closely together. I admire the work that's done there. Why is that home? That's home for me, man. I got I got the opportunity to visit High Watch in the summer of 2019. And as soon as I stepped on that

campus, it's a spiritual place, but it's a place of community. And I know you're a big believer in community. I had never stepped foot. I had been to hundreds of treatment centers, births personally and professionally. And when I walked on those sacred grounds, this place that's been doing treatment since 1939, I felt this sense of community. I felt this sense of purpose. I said, this is where I want to be. And it took me about seven or eight months to land a job there. But I did, and I moved across the country and I changed everything, man. And it's funny because we go back to this stigma of heroin addicts. And no one in this crowd right now could look at me and you and be like, you guys used to put needles in your arm. And it's funny

because I wear, you know, somewhat decent clothes to work and I look professional and all that kind of stuff. And I'm still in direct care because I love direct care and I love meeting with the guests at Highwatch. And I tell them my story or at least parts of it. And they're like, there's no way you used to shoot heroin. They think I'm an imposter sitting in that office. And sometimes I roll my sleeves and I show them the scars of my arm and tell them about how I used to put a needle in my arm every single day for a decade. And now I'm here just telling my story because that's our currency and recovery. and it breaks the ice and allows them to feel in an environment that's supportive.

So that's what I do now. I love it. I've been up there for a while. And honestly, I don't know that there's any other place that I'd want to be. So when Sean says direct care, that means he basically wants to work with the people that are struggling. He wants to work with the patients. They call them guests, which I love at High Watch. And I've seen it time and time again.

This is a guy that will respond to your phone calls, will respond to your text messages any hour, anytime, because he believes so deeply in the miracles of recovery. And we're fortunate enough that he high watch as a partner and we raise money for each other and we do a lot of work. And Sean's running his fourth marathon this weekend. Tell the listeners a little bit about why running, what got you involved, what have you found to be beneficial in your running journey

and what you're looking forward to most this weekend. Yeah, man. Running, I was historically, I was not a runner. And the story goes like this. It was late winter of 2022. I was just coming out of a breakup. My depression and my anxiety were probably the worst that had been since I started getting, you know, since I got sober. And I remember kind of bringing some of that stuff to a colleague of mine at work and who was a runner historically. And he suggested, he's like, why don't you like sign up for running? And I looked at him immediately and I was like, I can't run a marathon.

I can't even run a half marathon. I've never run more than three miles in my life. And frankly, I just wasn't even interested in doing it. Yeah. And something hit me a couple days later. I woke up and I was like, I got sober and I can do hard things today, right? There's a lot of things that I didn't think I would ever be able to do. But like being sober, I mean, I really true believe I can do anything.

And I remember texting them or calling them and be like, all right, man, I'm making a commitment. And I'm doing this thing. And I think that's what the purpose that running has served. for me so much is the accountability and the purpose. A lot of what we do in recovery is about commitments. And every year when I commit to a race, whether it's New York City Marathon or Berlin last year, it's a four or five month commitment. And I feel accountable. And then, you know, kind of second to that is the community and the connection and sort of like the remedy for mental health. It kind of hits all angles. And coupled with what I need to do for recovery, it's been the most

amazing remedy that I didn't even know was available to me until I tried. Yeah. I love that, man. It's so beautiful. And I relate because it's just like I'm running my 10th New York and the times are great and you train hard. But at the end of the day, like for me, when I cross that finish line, I think of the people that aren't able to do it.

You know, and I think of the people that we've lost. I think of the people that, you know, haven't started running yet or are in a detox or in a rehab facility. and if they maybe see a picture of me and you or hear this podcast could find a little glimmer of hope that they too can do this. I mean, at the end of the day, that's what we hope for. What is next for Sean McGowan?

I mean, you're going to run the marathon this weekend. What's your dream? What's your goal? What do you look to make of this recovery story that you're building? I'm living the dream, man. I mean, this is the dream. I mean, if you would ask me seven and a half years ago, if I was going to be sitting here with you doing this podcast, running my fourth marathon, I would have looked at you dead in the face.

And I say, you're crazy, man. I mean, my family's taking the train up tomorrow. My brother, who's also sober, is running this marathon with me on Sunday. I mean, this is the dream. And I get to live it every single day when I wake up and I get to be in the presence of people that I truly, truly care about. and I was doing chapel up at High Watch yesterday, and I did something a little bit different. I went in there and I talked about how they're my spirit animals on Sunday

when I'm running this marathon. Not only do I raise money when I run these marathons for people that might not necessarily have the resources to get the help, but these people that are starting their journeys that think that there's no way out, I'll be thinking of all of them when I'm in the pain cave at Mile 21 on Sunday, and that's for sure. I love it, dude. We'll be in the pain cave together.

I'm grateful that you came by today. I'm grateful that you shared a bit of your story. We'll do a little bit of a longer form next year. We'll get you in the office and whack it up. But we got business to take care of Sunday. And yeah, man, two heroin addicts going out around the New York City Marathon. What's better than that? I love it, man.

Thank you for having me. And I look forward to Sunday. I love you, bro. I love you, too. Thank you, brother.