The Zac Clark Show - The Phone Call That Changed Everything | A Brother & Sister’s Recovery Story

Episode Date: March 17, 2026

When addiction hits a family, everyone feels it – but recovery can ripple through a family too.In this powerful episode of The Zac Clark Show, Zac sits down with siblings Sean and Kathleen McGowan, two people whose lives were once consumed by addiction and chaos, and who today both work in the behavioral healthcare field. Sean shares the moment that changed his life: waking up in a hotel room after a cross-country road trip, facing the reality of his heroin addiction, and finally surrendering to treatment. Kathleen tells her own devastating story – from drug arrests and life on a California weed farm to a severe nitrous oxide addiction that left her unable to walk.Their paths diverged for years until a desperate phone call brought their family back together. Today, both siblings are sober, working at High Watch Recovery Center, and using their experiences to help others find hope.This episode includes:The cross-country trip that ended with Sean entering treatmentWhat heroin addiction looked like behind closed doorsGrowing up in a loving family that didn’t talk about addictionThe hidden addiction that nearly left Kathleen paralyzedNitrous oxide abuse and its devastating neurological effectsHow denial can persist even in the face of life-threatening consequencesThe moment Kathleen called her father and asked for helpSean driving overnight to rescue his sister from an abusive situationWhat it’s like when siblings recover togetherHow recovery rebuilds families, trust, and relationshipsWhy families should never give up hopeThis is a very honest and raw conversation about family, accountability, second chances, and the power of showing up when someone you love asks for help.Connect with Zac:https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclarkhttps://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery:[phone]releaserecovery.com@releaserecovery

This is a part that is emotional for me is I remember talking to it on the phone and I was like, we're outside, like comes outside. And she's like, I can't walk. And so I get out of the car and I go into the lobby and I see her scaling the walls. Yeah, that's how I was walking with this hat on and bruise. Not your sister. Yeah. All right.

So my phone has been blown up. With family members, specifically siblings, looking for ways to help their brother, sister, whoever it might be, which makes this conversation today. Very meaningful, very helpful. I am joined by Sean and Kathleen McGowan. Kathleen, five-year-sober, Sean, the day we air this episode will have nine years. Nice.

Both work at High Watch Recovery, both paying it forward. But it didn't always look like that. So, Sean, I want to start nine years ago, St. Patty's Day, or nine years ago, March 17th, what happens? I wake up to a knock on a hotel room door from my brother in Salt Lake City, Utah. Well, actually, we were in a hotel in Park City, Utah. My sister was not there, but we had a tentative. to drive across the country and bring me to treatment. And just the night before, I, you know, on a whimsical decision,

decided to drive down to Salt Lake City and try to get high one more last time with heroin. That's where I feel that some sort of higher power entered in my life because I didn't get high that day. I sat at a gas station and thought about what my life would be like if I was homeless as a drug addict or what my life would be like if I potentially got sober. and so I woke up, thought I was going skiing in the canyons in Park City, Utah, and there's my older brother saying, you know, this trip's over, and we're getting you on a plane to Southern California, and you're going into treatment today. And the journey started, though, in Pennsylvania. It did. Kathleen. Yep. I had just turned 21, and I was a queen of geographic change, and the opportunity arose to drive across country. I had just gotten arrested, and I wanted to get out of time. town and what were you arrested for uh you know drug paraphernalia intent to distribute the whole nine they came into the house that was the whole thing so you were well on your way yes definitely i was

yep just turned 21 and um looking back on it we've we've talked about this separately now like that we have so much clarity and just like having no idea kind of the state of mind he was in and so each night we had these hotel rooms across country and like i was going out of to the bars and he was like detoxing in these hotel rooms each night and uh day after day like the driving got a little sketchier and like it just was getting a little erratic and um we made it to salt lake and um but i'll let you tell the story kind of when we got there but it started in pennsylph and you're so at your dad's place yeah and you're an iv heroin user using heroin Ivy and heroin user, you know, we're in March of 2017.

I just got out of treatment in December of 2016. And, you know, the goal was to go back and get a job and live on my own. And, you know, I was a guy that did really well in treatment. But once I got out, I had no defense against the next drink or drug. And I found myself shooting heroin, driving to Baltimore every day, living on a, sleeping on a futon in the guest room at my dad's townhouse in Pennsylvania with her bedroom right next. Yeah, and I'm smoking a bunch of weed and like, you know, other substances and just having

a time, like further. So you're 21. Yeah. And is there, what is your perception of Sean at the time? I was like, I don't really know. So Irish Catholic family, it's like you don't, I was kind of in the dark for a lot of years, right? So he had been struggling for years at this point.

And it was like, everything I've found out was like that I've pieced together that I've, like, overheard the conversations with my parents. And it was very much like, we're not going to talk about it. We're definitely not going to talk about it with Kathleen because she's young and, you know, she won't understand. And so at one point, like, I think I had knocked on your door in Pennsylvania and I was like, let's go for a drive. Like, because I was like, he's struggling.

Like, something's going on here, you know? And I took you for a drive and he was like, this is so, like, awkward. You're my little sister. I'm like, dude, we're way past that. Like, way past that. What's the age difference? Eight years. Eight years.

So you're 29, she's 21. You're living at your dad's. Are your parents separated? No, my dad's job had moved. We grew up in Rhode Island. My mom was a school teacher. They were kind of in their last leg before retirement. And my dad's job headquarters had moved to Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

So the goal was for my mom to finish out her ride as a teacher in Rhode Island. My dad to finish his job in Pennsylvania. And then they were going to buy this retirement home in Delaware, which they are there now. So there was a few years where they were separated living domestically. Then my mom would spend the summers because she was a teacher at the townhouse in Pennsylvania. So when I had a place in D.C. and I went to treatment in the fall of 2016, I gave up the apartment. I had lost a job.

I had lost a girlfriend. I had really lost everything. The goal was to get me to go to California for this six-month program because my cousin had had success in this program. and at the time had four years sober. And I manipulated and pushed my mom that it's Christmas. I need to come home after this treatment. I swear I'm not going to use. I had heroin tucked away in the spare tire of my, you know,

in the back of my Honda accord, and I didn't make it six hours out of treatment, which she picked me up in Westchester, Pennsylvania, and drove back to my dad's place. We went to the mall, and then I got back, and I mean, I was sitting in my room alone isolated. I had no idea how to stay. So you went to treatment knowing that you had a bundle of heroin waiting for you in the spare tire of a car No intention to use it though

Yeah, no intention to use it right and your dad's name like Mike? Shout out Mike friend of the friend of the pod. He like he loves the pod. So we appreciate you Mike if you're listening out there and hopefully This is a cool moment for you seeing your two kids on the mic talking about He's been through it recovery and And there's one other, is it one other sibling? We have two other. My younger brother, John, who found sobriety right after I did. And then my older brother that lives in Salt Lake that put me on the plane that day.

Not sober. No. It's just totally normal. What the fuck is wrong with you guys? Yep. Pretty much. Okay. Yeah.

So you start this, so your parents kind of set this boundary. They say, Sean, you're going to treatment for six months at this program where your cousin had some success. And they volunteer you to drive? Yeah. I was all about it. Yeah. I was like, let's go. And I was, I thought it was like, and I had been traveling at the time.

Like, I was going to music festivals, and I loved it. So I was like, this is going to be great. No conception of, like, the depths of, like, what was happening and, like, how my, the family system was just, like, in shambles. And, you know, I'm like, this is going to be fun. Did you have drugs for the road trip? No, I actually, so we left on a Monday, and I drove down to Baltimore that Sunday. that Sunday with hopes of grabbing as much heroin as I could.

In my sort of messed up way of thinking, I thought I needed a gram of heroin a day to get across the country. It's going to take about four or five days to get there. I remember sitting in this McDonald's parking lot, meeting up with my drug dealer, and I said, this is it, man, I'm leaving, and I'm going to need this to get across the country to go to treatment. I was not sold heroin that day.

Come to find out, I was sold ketamine, and I shot up for the last time. in that Baltimore, West Baltimore, McDonald's parking lot, and came out of that, and I looked at myself in the mirror, and I'm like, I'm done with this. And I walked over to the dumpster that McDonald's parking lot. I threw everything away that I had. And I said, I'm going to get across the country without anything. And I drove back home and I was sick as a dog when we woke up the next morning. I'm like, oh, okay. The hot dogs. Yeah, like, gas station hot dogs. Nothing better than a hot dog withdrawal. So you start. this journey and how when do you arrive in Salt Lake I mean we spent a couple days yeah

in Nebraska so it was probably the third day yeah we got to Salt Lake so I was like privy at this point to what was going on because the night before in Nebraska he had his phone linked up to the TV and I saw like this sketchy message pop up on the TV and I was like so that kind of like got my attention and then the next day driving super erratic and then he went got this like haircut for two hours comes back no haircut and so I went against everything that all the messages I've ever been told as a child like don't ask you know and I like looked in his backpack and there was a bunch of paraphernalia and I called my older brother and I was like we got to like get him on a plane or something from Salt Lake from Salt Lake and you didn't but you didn't get high

I didn't get high yeah and I sat in that parking lot of that gas station I really thought about I was like there was a couple homeless guys leaning against the gas station. And I was like, I could just go be with those guys. And it'd just be much easier on my sister, my brother, and my parents, all the people that love me in my life, and I'll just vanish. And there was a moment of clarity. And where it was like, Sean, just get back to that hotel and get to treatment and try to give this thing another shot.

And I'm telling you, Zach, like, I really, to this day, I don't remember turning the key in the ignition. I don't remember putting the car in reverse. Next thing I knew I was driving from Salt Lake back up to Park City. to the hotel and I didn't get high that day. Why did you guys decide that your hive? Why didn't you just fly? My ego, like if I'm going to California for six months,

like there's no way I'm going to be carless. I hadn't been carless since I was 16 years old. So we need the whip. Yeah, I needed the whip. And like, was it the right thing to do? Absolutely not. I mean, the ironic thing about this story is that a month prior, I went out to California to scope it out.

Like I wanted to make sure it's a viable place for me to get sober, slept at my cousin's apartment. and he brought me in a couple of meetings, and he tried to convince me to stay. It was a Super Bowl with the Patriots came back against the Falcons. And we were sitting on the roof day. We were sitting on the rooftop. He's like, Sean, there's nothing back there for you to just stay and go into treatment. I'm like, no, man.

I was like, I got to take care of some things. And like, you know, deep down inside, I just wanted another month of running. So you're 29. Your brother wakes you up in the morning. You take this flight from Salt Lake to San Diego. Is that? I flew into Orange County, John. lane and you drove and i drove the car the rest of the way and i was like i don't know because i didn't

know that he was not getting high like i saw paraphernalia i'm like he's getting high and so i was like all right i'm going to drive this honda cord with east coast license plates like so dirty with god knows what inside the car and i like stopped at zion like you know i was like maybe i should stop at Vegas like just turned 21 you know and um i ended up dropping the car off at the the sober house and like how to chat with the owner and it was he's like you know we're going to take care of him like he's in a good place and I'm like okay like no idea but you knew nothing Kathleen about I knew nothing like and I didn't know anything until like I had my journey you know and like which I've since you know made amends to him about like I had no idea yeah and just you know

how much you were struggling so Sean you enter into this program and you get sober finally What do you attest to why did it work that time? I think that was the longest I'd ever stayed in treatment. I think my cousin being involved in a 12-step program and knowing a bunch of sober guys that I found their life's attractive. But I wasn't the guy that came into treatment guns ablaze and ready for recovery, man. It took me a couple months. And I remember my cousin telling me, it was I've been waiting for this phone call where like the pain became so great that I picked up the phone and like was just. desperate. It was like kill myself. I can't get high because I know that's not a solution.

Or like find what my cousin has found because I saw him at the depths and I see his life now. And I remember calling him and he's like, come do what we do. And I showed up to this men's meeting in Laguna Beach, California. And that's where I got a sponsor and it's where my life changed. And I took every suggestion. Not because like that, like, there was no fear inside of me of like if I go back out and maybe die and homeless. but like I was so tired of being so sick and tired that I was willing to take some sort of suggestion. And I would say at that moment of time, six treatment centers later,

that like I was ready to take a suggestion and do something different. Yeah, I mean, the thing that's coming up for me is just the idea that, and the Bingbo talks about this, and there's a period where we just need to be separated from drugs and alcohol, right? Like that physical withdrawal that we go through

and then we can actually start to get involved in the work. And that's why I believe, you know, at release and high watch and some of the programs, you know, we work at and know, believe in that long-term model. I mean, the six-month thing really sticks out for me in your story. And so, Kathleen, you drop him off at treatment and you go move on to a weed. Like, what is your crazy next thought? Like, you're, I've just been following him around the country, actually. So I had met these people shortly after I dropped him off. I fly back to Pennsylvania.

I was working as a hairstylist going through court. You know, because I'd just been arrested. And I had... But like you drop your brother off at rehab. You've just been arrested for drugs. Did the thought ever cross your mind? No.

Perhaps you know. Because at this point, like, up until I entered treatment, my perception and idea of what a drug addict was, it wasn't me. It was him. It was my other brother. It was, you know, it's not me.

Definitely not what I'm. Because he's doing heroin and you're just doing it right right or like you know started with the pills and that sort of thing and I'm doing these like other things and like there's no way I'm a drug addict you know because I know what drug addiction looks like and it's not me and but yeah it didn't even cross my mind what did your household look like growing up I mean we never went without right my mom was a hard working school teacher my dad worked he worked in Boston so it was an hour commute every day and he would get up at 5 a.m. He'd go to the gym he'd work 10 hours a day and he'd get home at 9 o'clock at night and vivid memories of being ecstatic like when he would show up for baseball games and basketball games and all that kind of stuff because I know how hard he worked to to provide for our family when it came to a big Irish Catholic family with my dad one of 13 my mom one of four I was thinking about this example last night we do these crazy it's not as crazy anymore but when I was a teenager and a kid these family reunions every two years literally a hundred of us

and we get a beach house or multiple beach houses somewhere in the country, and we go down there, and a lot of it was a drink fest. Like I said, it's not like it used to be. But I remember I was 14, 15 years old, and I went into my aunt's cooler, you know, and she had some Budwisers, straight up Budwisers, and I took a few of those, and she caught me, and I thought she was going to be upset. She wasn't upset that I was drinking. She was upset that I took her beers.

It was very much. Alcohol was the center of every get-together, and, you know, it's just what it was. And so when I got sober, I remember going to this family, like, baby shower, and I was like, oh, my God, there's going to be tons of alcohol there, and it was not that way at all. That was just how, like, my perception of it. But, you know, very much, you know, heavy drinkers, for sure. But it was always work hard, play hard. Yes.

If I went through every single one of my aunts and uncles, all of them have been really successful in their work ethic. And yeah, they like to have a good time, but that was just the culture. So it was like, you know, one end of things they worked their ass off and the other things that, like, you know, they could enjoy themselves. And is it safe to say you guys grew up in a loving home? Oh, yeah. How much of that do you guys credit to your sobriety? I mean, the fact that you knew, you always knew that the love was there. I think to a certain extent it was almost too loving because we wanted to keep it inside.

And like I say this when I'm at High Watch to all of our families. And I think my mom, Kim, shout out to Kim, you know, one of the biggest mistakes that they probably made was not talking about it. I mean, I'm telling you, Zach, every time I went to treatment, I would call my mom. And like one of the first things that she would always tell me is don't worry your family, your friends, your siblings don't know where you are and what's going on. And so it was like to this point where it was so much. much pain and there was so much grief that was going on with addiction and our immediate family, but none of us talked about it. Right. So like to a point, it's like we wanted to keep it inside and we thought we could

fix it internally. And until we outwardly started expressing ourselves, like they needed to recover, just like I needed to recover. I think that's when things really started to change. Right. And you, back to you, Kathleen. Youngest. Yes. Three older brothers. What did that, I mean, what did that, like, growing up, you know, as, as the youngest child, three older brothers. I mean, obviously before, I think Sean was a decent athlete. I'll give them that and some other stuff. I mean, I always say, like, I've had the isms, you know, like the isms of the alcoholism since I was a kid. It was always, like, me not feeling a part of because there was an age gap and then the gender.

And, like, I just wanted to hang out. Like, I just wanted to be involved in the hang out. I was always, like, reaching for that. So it was like, what can I do? Like, how can I alter myself, chameleon myself, to just, like, you know, hang out with you guys or do whatever you guys are doing? And that started very young age and that carried, you know, through until I got sober. But there was a lot of that, a lot of not feeling a part of.

But it was just so loving. Like, anytime I needed something, like, I have three older brothers and they show up, you know. And I think I love the term, like, do. the best you can until you know better and then when you know better do better you know and I feel like that sums up our family because we just didn't know like what was going on my parents especially what are your parents going to think listening to this podcast I mean when I was when I woke up this morning I was kind of thinking about this like we've talked about it like very fragmented like bits and part pieces of the story but like we've never really like sat down and kind of broke it

down like from point A to point B. Sometimes, I mean, we can laugh about it now, but it wasn't funny then whatsoever. Yeah. So I think kind of piecing it all together, you know, is probably going to be very interesting to them to see the dynamic between the two of us who now live together, work together, on this sobriety journey together, which is pretty cool. But like, there was some dark years. And like one thing that came to mind to me this morning was like, Kathleen was in middle school and high school when my addiction really kind of lifted off. And I remember my parents kicking me out. I was renting an apartment from my grandmother in Patucket, Rhode Island, and my uncle went in there

and found, I was paying $200 a month and I never paid her for it. And my uncle going in there because he took care of the property and locked the key, you know, locked it so I couldn't get in. So I was essentially homeless living out of my car. I remember texting her. She was a freshman in high school. Not even. I think I was like in middle school. And I was like, I need a blanket and I need food. And I remember parking up. As an eighth grade, you're like in the street. And like, back story is like, he's not allowed at the house. And like, I don't know that.

And so I get this text from my older brother like, hey, like, I need some food in a blanket. And I'm like, okay, do-to-do. And I bring them out like a box of stale cheeses. Yeah. No, actually, they were extreme goldfish, which I don't think they make anymore. I ate them. They were absolutely horrible. And then the blanket was extremely comforting living in my car.

But, like, I just remember her walking down the driveway. with the blanket and the goldfish and it's like, what is my life come to? I'm asking my teenage sister to bring me food in a blanket because I've nowhere to live. Unbelievable. Yeah.

So you go back to Pennsylvania, Kathleen. Sean's getting sober and you moved to a weed farm. Is that? Tell me the story of that. How do you end up on the weed farm? Another geographic, you know, I had moved to Pennsylvania in my sophomore year of high school

and then I had met these. So when she says geographic, if you're listening, in sobriety we use that term a lot right you kind of try to move away from your problems and we find that it typically doesn't really work yeah i take me with me right so it's it's all you people it's all it's this job it's this environment it's these people i'm surrounded with and if i can just get out of here like everything will be okay right so i met i mean just on that thread and like like you know as as as folks in sobriety i think one of the things that when i'm active i like to

blame everyone and everything. And when I'm talking to people about getting sober, it's about taking some of that accountability. Yeah. So. 100%. Basically, I met some people and they gave me a job opportunity on this like black market farm, Mountain Humboldt County, California. And I drove across, so I just come back from Kelly and I drove across country with like $200 in my pocket. What do you tell your parents you're going to do? I don't, we've talked about this and like I really don't think they asked. I was just like, I came home.

My dad talks about this. Sean had beaten him to a pulp. They were just like going. Yes, yes. And I came home and I said, dad, I'm moving to California tomorrow. And he was like, what? I was like, yep. And I started packing all my stuff.

And I left all this stuff at his house, which then he retired. couple years later and had to pack all my shit up. And I just went. I just left with like 200 bucks in my pocket. And like I don't even know these people. And I just went out there. I brought one of my friends with me at the time. I convinced her to come. And we're like living in a tent on this farm. And I was like, I'm going to make it. Like this is a big business. People are making a bunch of money out here. And I had so much pride and ego. And like I just wanted to like make something of myself, right? And so I went out there and I like, I worked really hard and I like made a good name for myself. Like I was trustworthy and everything. And, but the addiction out there, it's like

work hard, party harder. And, you know, I got into substances I've never tried before. Break it down. What are you using? I mean, like, come on. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, at this point, you know, alcohol, cocaine. And when I moved out West, I started getting into nitrous, which is like a huge thing on the West Coast. And I remember the first time I saw someone doing nitrous from like a tank. I was in Philly. And I was like, classic Philly.

Yeah. And I was like, these losers, you know, I was like, I would never do that. Hippie crack, ice cold fatties. Yeah. And ended up changing the course of my life for the better, you know. I can say that now. But yeah, everyone was into the nitrous out there and just the party drugs, the MDMA, like garbage disposal, like anything I could get my hands on.

And I honestly hadn't been sober more than 48 hours since I was in high school, you know. And that was kind of the life I led, just smoking weed all day, drinking. And, you know, I was out there and I just, what I now know is that I moved out there so that I could live my life how I wanted to. I could party how I wanted to. I could use drugs how I wanted to and I could drink how I wanted to. and I would come home every once in a while and it was just like it was like this thing no one talked about I'm like out here on a weed farm doing my thing and then I would just like go back and no one

really talked about it I mean she was proposing business plans to my uncles at some point in time and like people were getting bought into this thing I'm sure I'm sure I remember I mean one of my buddies I think started a staffing agency for yes growers yeah yeah but I worked my way up like I I went in there as like bottom level. Like, you know, they call them like tremors. And then I like had a real interest in the greenhouses and the plants and everything and the nurseries. And by the end of it, like we were renting a little piece of property and like I loved it, you know. So you're a real marijuana executive.

I guess. Real marijuana executives are probably laughing at me. But I mean, it was a time. Like it was a short period of time. But it was an adventure. And my addiction, like, thrived. Yeah. You know, it was masked.

So there's four years of that, but there's this role reversal because, Sean, you are now in treatment. You get sober. You complete the six months. You're living a life of sobriety. Are you thinking about Kathleen? Does it, like, at what point do you understand that my sister might have a problem as well? There was always this dynamic with our family. like out of sight, out of mind, right?

Where it's like, unless you have significant proof that they're doing it, like you didn't believe it to be true. I sort of was in this mirage of like sobriety, which was awesome and getting my life underway. And like genuinely deep down inside, like I thought she was living her best life over there. You know? I really did.

I was like, man, maybe she found her people. She's telling me about these people that she's met. And then things over time started to get dark. I started to get text messages. and calls for my mom because there was like copious amounts of money being spent at head shops. They thought I was like doing money laundering. Yeah. Yeah.

And then like, I mean, fast forward. I mean, later we find out she's buying massive amounts of nitrous. Yeah. Spending thousands of dollars on nitrous in a day. Whippets. Yeah. And you maintain that habit for I guess four years, right? Yeah.

So it really took off towards the end because I was, I realized that I had a problem with alcohol. and I vividly remember the nitrous was not the problem no not at the time not at the time and then it was all the problem but I was trying to stop drinking and so I started

using nitrous heavily and oh I'm not drinking though and I remember like posting on the internet like six months sober like from alcohol right and I'm like getting high every day like just unreal just

that's something we see all the time right I mean like I I can't shoot hair heroin, but I'm going to drink like a normal person. And so when do you move back? Tell me about that four-year period of time when you put your life back together and she's kind of spiraling. Yeah.

So, I mean, historically, before I got sober, I had some experience working in the non-alcoholic beverage space. I worked for Coca-Cola for quite a few years in Washington, D.C. And I remember I was like three months sober, four months sober and landed some job. out there and I thought like this this was it like I made it and I go to my sponsor and I'm like I'm gonna take this job and he point blank told me he said Sean you might be one of the most ungrateful motherfuckers that I've ever met in my life and you're gonna get down to the YMCA and start volunteering until you understand what the

word gratitude means and I did that and you know eventually a couple months later work for dr. Pepper Snapple and then about 18 months sober I get a call to come back and to start my, you know, start my work in this field. And I work for the place that I got sober at for about a year. What's the name of that program? Give them some love. Yeah, I went to this place called SCRC, Southern California Recovery Centers, six-month men's intensive outpatient, sober living program. My cousin got sober there. I got sober there. Met, I mean, we went to a men's a meeting every single day. And that's exactly what I needed. And I'm very grateful for my time there, the house managers and all the people that I met. And eventually, fast forward.

I'm three years sober and I'm like, you know, California's just not doing it for me anymore. I'm digging a financial hole. It's really expensive to live out there. My parents just built this brand new, beautiful house in Delaware and I want to spend more time with them. Right. And so I, you know, meet some people on the East Coast and land the job at Highwatch and, you know, I've been there ever since. So I'll be celebrating my sixth year anniversary at Highwatch on March 16th and then my sober anniversary is March 17th. That's amazing.

So you're working at High Watch. And we're going to, we're going to tee us up because I know, I know where you literally came from today, Kathleen, or what you've been working on. You're working at High Watch. How do you, Kathleen, end up in Ohio or take me to your rock bottom moment? So there was, you know, this guy, obviously, you know, in my life. And basically, long story short, like, we had to get out of town in California. Why did you have to get out of town? There was like some theft and there was some people after us and like it wasn't good.

Yeah. And so we, he was from Ohio and at this point the relationship was really terrible. Like it was, you know, just toxic and not. Abusive. Yes. Yes. Yep. And so that was like the golden ticket for him because it completely isolated me for

from everyone I knew in California, where I had built a life for the past few years. And so we drive across the country, COVID just happened, and we have the truck, the trailer, both uninsured. He doesn't have a license. My car has a huge crack in the windshield, no insurance, like just hot. And I'm detoxing, you know, driving across country.

I think people are following us. I'm waking up like incontinent. I'm like losing my ability. So at this point, this is like November, October of 2020. Let's say on that thread, you're losing your ability to use the restroom properly? Is that what you're telling me? Yeah. Yep.

And so I'm just, you know, it's terrible. So we, at this point, so this is November 2020. From the nitrous. From the nitrous. So from what I've come to learn is that nitrous cuts off your body's ability to absorb vitamins. So basically what happens is your spine detain. deteriorates and you get spinal degeneration. And so you start, it starts with like numbness and tingling and then your balance goes.

And then you, you can't walk, you know. So it had started when we traveled across country. I couldn't, I was getting numbness in my legs and in my fingers. Operating a vehicle. Operating a vehicle. I think like feds are following me, you know, just paranoid. paraphernalia. Yeah, that's some crack cocaine thinking right there.

Yeah, yeah. And so we make it to Ohio, and it's like, you know, November and just totally isolated. And at this point, I didn't know where to get any, like, cocaine or anything else. So, and then when I drank, I would fight back. And so, like, I wasn't allowed to drink, you know. And so we just started doing a bunch of... He didn't let you drink. Right.

And so we started doing a bunch of nitrous. And at this point, I knew I had a problem with alcohol. And I didn't really want to drink either because it didn't end up in a good situation. And so we were just heavy doing nitrous. And so- And so- And he's working at a treatment center. And he's working at a treatment center.

And still to this day, you have no, you have not put your hand up and said. No. Because at this point, like, I don't think I have a problem. You land in Ohio. I land in Ohio. And completely isolated. I'm starting to lose my ability to walk. So gradually from November,

to when I got sober in April of 2021. It just slowly deteriorated. Like I couldn't walk by myself. I couldn't, I stopped driving. Does the guy know? Does he? Mm-hmm. And at this point, I knew, I convinced myself that I had MS because that's how in denial I was, that I didn't have a problem.

Right. Yeah. And it was dark, man. It was really dark. I couldn't work because I couldn't walk and I couldn't drive. And at this point, it's important to say, like, I was estranged with my family at this point because my parents didn't want me with this guy. And I just, I hadn't talked to my family. When was the last time you'd seen them?

The ski trip. Yeah. We went on a ski trip. Right before COVID. Right before COVID. And she had broken up with the guy. And we're all like, we're like a static. We're happy.

Right. And we're like, you're not going back with this guy, you know. And like, and she was all confident that she wasn't going to go back with this guy. And it was kind of like our last chance to like get rid of the guy, rejoined with the family. I'm sober. My brother's sober. You know, and like this, we had a great ski trip in Park City, Utah. And she went back and she got with the guy.

And, you know, for that year, I mean, very limited communication. I don't know if we spoke at all that year. I barely spoke to my parents. So she was very estranged at that point for basically a full year. So you bottom out. Bottom out. You pick up the phone. Yes.

So. And you call Sean. you call your dad i called my dad so the night before i just remember laying and in the house i was in god bless this family but like it was bad like hoarded out house holes in the floor to the basement and it was just not good um and i just remember like laying in bed and being like i have so much potential like how like how did i get here and like what do i do i do and i started praying, like get me out of this situation. And there was a really bad physical fight. And then the next day, you know, day in the life of a drug addict, we're like in the car.

And it was, it happened often where we would fight, we would get high in the car, we would fight, and I would sleep in the car because I would get left in the car and I couldn't walk back in the house. So it's like February in Cleveland, Ohio and like sleeping in the car. And you're beat up. And I'm beat up, dude. Beat up. Yeah. So it's this similar moment of like clarity. I'm in the car and we're fighting. We're getting high. And I just whip out my phone and I call my dad.

And I was like hiding my phone under my leg and I put it on speaker phone. So my dad could like hear what are you feeling right now. It's just like crazy to think about like you know you say in addiction like how did I end up here? and I say the same thing in sobriety. Like, you know, because my life is so much different. And I have so much compassion for that girl, you know. And it really was a divine moment because my dad has asked me. He's like, what made you call me?

God. That's what I said. But the crazier part is that he answered the phone because we hadn't spoken. I was uninvited to Christmas. I was not allowed to home. No one was talking to me. and I called my dad and he answered the phone. What do you say?

What did your... So I was hiding my phone and the phone got found by this gentleman and he's talking to my dad. You're being way too nice to this guy. Yeah, I know. I know. And my dad's like, frankly, you know, Mike, shout out,

he's like, I don't really want to talk to you. Like put my daughter on the phone. And I was like, dad, I have MS. That's what I told him. and I need help. And he's like, what? And I'm like, yep, that's this, I can't walk, I have MS. That's what I told him.

And he... So dad calls Sean. Dad called Sean. And where are you when you get this call? Oh, this is going to get emotional for me. I know. I know. So I was sitting, I was living in Connecticut, and during COVID, we were doing these virtual

A Zoom meetings, and I was, I did every Tuesday night as Bill sees it. And I'm sitting there. read and as Bill sees it and I get this call and I just get three-weight into like what was absolute chaos and commotion. I mean you heard screaming. I don't know what's going on and this guy is outside the car and I'm trying to get in the car and I'm like the only thing I can think to do is just show up right and I say this all the time like I'm sober I can answer the phone I have gas money in my car to figure it out and the best thinking that I had at that point in time is I get her an Uber, get her to a hotel, and then I'm going to get on a flight, and I'm going to go to Cleveland.

And it's 7.30 at night. There's no flights out in New York or Connecticut to Cleveland, Ohio. So I call my dad, and, like, we found this meeting point, which ironically enough is the same town that we left, you know, years before to take the journey to go out to California to drop me off at treatment, right outside Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. What's the name of the town? It was in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. And that's where my dad lived. And my dad came from Delaware. I came from Connecticut. I think we met there at midnight. We drove to Cleveland, Ohio, through the night.

And we're like, let's go to a hotel. We're going to sleep for a couple hours. And I mean, we might have slept for 45 minutes before I got a call from her. So we get in the car and drive over there. And, like, this is a part that is emotional for me is. I remember talking to her on the phone. And I was like, we're outside. Like, comes outside.

And she's like, I can't. walk and yeah so I get out of the car and I go into the lobby and I see her scaling the walls yeah that's how I was walking with this hat on

and bruised not your sister yeah I was beat up like black eye bruised lip and God bless the Uber driver like so they called me an Uber to get me out of that situation and go to a hotel and the Uber driver like walked me to my room and like helped me check in and I just remember like so many emotions that night and they were dry at this point driving through the night and um I was just like you know

my life's about this the gig is up they know and I held on to the fact that I wasn't using drugs until the moment I entered high watch and like I thought that like I could keep this under wraps you know did you know you were picking her up to take her to treatment I didn't know what to do. We picked her up. She wanted to get her stuff from this gentleman's house. So we went over there. Luckily, there was no one home. I, to rephrase what she said about the house, like in the living condition she was in, I took one step in the front door and I said, I can't go in here. I'll be in therapy the rest of my life. If I witness, like, the living condition of, there goes Missile Mike, right, right in the house, gathering all of her stuff. And like, she was so adamant about returning this modem.

Oh, yeah. So we're driving to the modems, like the internet store. The internet store. And I'm like, I don't know what I'm. I'm like, I'm just going to bring her to Highwatch. Like they got therapy. They got doctors. Did you eventually say like I'm on drugs?

No. No. No, that was the whole thing was she was like, I'm not going to rehab. I'm not a drug addict. And I stopped the car. And I said, Kathleen, I said, you got a one way ticket wherever you want to go where you can come to High Watch. And she quieted down and, you know, took her to High Watch.

But there was a whole thing on the, way there because thank God shout out to Dr. Boris the medical director at Highwatch. I called him right away and I was like I don't know what's going on with my sister. I think it's mental health like that's literally what I said I had no idea what was going on and so my dad and I pulled over this rest stop. This is big. And I was like I'm going to give her privacy to have this conversation. And so my dad and I go in the rest stop and like then we get back in the car and I'm like don't think anything of it. And then like he texts me and I look at my phone and I read it out loud because I had no.

idea what he was talking about. And she's in the backseat. I'm like nitrous oxide induced anemia? I'm like, I thought it was like cancer or something. Like I had no idea. It wasn't even in my scope of understanding. And I flip out. And she flipped out at that point in time.

Flip out. Because he was saying bring her right to the hospital. Like we can't care for him. You can't come here. You have to go right to the emergency room. And so. And what hospital are you going to? I went to Yale. And I was in the hospital.

I was in the neuro ICU. for two weeks. And then I don't know how you got me in bed at. It was like this inpatient rehab, physical rehab. It's called Gaylord's in Wallingford, Connecticut. And I was there for four weeks. And what are you doing this summer? And I just accepted an offer to be a nurse at Yale five years later.

Yeah. And I told that version of it in my interview about how the nurses there were like incredible. and I was having a hard time. You still got the job. And I got the job. And I got like emotional in the interview and I was like, these like badass ER nurses probably think I'm a wimp. But I think, you know, I told that story.

But so, you know, I'm in the back of the car and Sean's like, these are my resources. Like you're going to hire, you know, we go to high, like, what's your plan? And I was like, I'm on plan Z, dude. And I thought, you know, I could just go to my parents' house, sleep it off for, a couple days and I'd be good. And he convinced me to get on the phone with the big dog, John, in admissions. And this was monumental. It wasn't a rest stop.

You guys pulled over on the side of the highway, the Turnpike, Pennsylvania Turnpike. And him and my dad got out of the car. And that was the first time in my entire life that I was honest on the admissions phone call. With John. Yeah. Because I was so scared that I was never. going to walk again. I was so scared. And then he, you know, then Boris got involved, the medical director, and then, I think your pitch was that like everything was confidential. And so when Boris

hit you with that message out of like safety, you know, it wasn't about confidentiality, I flipped out, flipped out. And so I get, and it was during COVID, so I get dropped off at Yale Hospital. It's like 10 o'clock at night at this point. And I'm my, and it was during COVID, so I get dropped off at in like a hallway and uh they were going to discharge me and i have no i have known no one in connecticut um i am homeless i can't walk and they were going to they were going to discharge me and sean was like they're going to come assess you and you need to like amp it up a little bit right because you need to get admitted and i was like sean i don't really know how much more you want me to amp this up like i've been hopping nitrous for four years and i can't walk yeah and i

And I tell this story. I run a big book group for the whole community at Highwatch. And I tell this story. And one of the top neurologists came up to me. And it was the first time I'd ever been honest about what I was using and what I was doing. And he looked at me and he was like very confused. He was like, what were you doing? How much were you using?

And I told him and he's like, well, why didn't you just stop doing that? I was at that moment I realized like you know not everyone understands addiction and that like oh wish I thought of that six months ago doc thank you very much right and I realized in myself that like I couldn't like I didn't stop because I couldn't you know so you get through your four weeks at Yale where you were just hired and you enter into high watch Sean is running the show up there I mean he's a very well-known own employee and spiritual guide for a lot of people. What was that like for you, Sean, watching your sister come to campus? Honestly, I was super excited to get it right there. She tells us. You're just always gassed on recovery. I was flying.

I was flying. Oh, so fast. I was like, slow down, dude. The moment I remember, because it was still COVID-y and like everyone have to admit through these trailers at Highwatch. And I remember, and she probably doesn't even realize this, but I was standing on the other side of campus. And I saw her come out of the trailer with one of our admissions reps.

And at that point in time, they'll bring her to whatever group that she's supposed to be in at that time. And I remember there was a group outside because it was like a nice day like it is today in New York City. And they were holding the women's group outside. And I remember like them bringing her to that group and she sat down and I said like, this is where I have to take my hands off the wheel. You know, it's like not in my hands anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And like it's so important to say.

And, like, I think it's, I want to make a point to say this. Kathleen, real quick. Yeah. What is it watching Sean right now? What is that? It's clearly emotionally. It brings me, like, I hate to say joy because it's like we've gone through so much and our stories are so intertwined.

And, like, there was a period of time where we couldn't be in the same room and we were going through our own struggles separately. And, like, now it's just, like, amazing. And I love hearing the other. perspective of it because like I said like we don't we never we had never talked about things in our family so to like come together and hear the other side of it it's so it's so cool and at what point in your stage do you realize that you have this thing that you're yeah so I come there it took me so I had already been in the hospital for six weeks so what I'm like 30 plus days sober and I had been

probably 60 more days at high watch until I admitted that I was an alcoholic and an addict And what happened, and I'll tell you what happened. That's the delusion of this thing. Yeah. That's what people fail to understand. You're talking about someone that was incapacitated. Yeah. I'm walking with a cane.

And still, I don't have this thing. And so it's like these people are telling me, you know, these facilitators and these therapists at Highwatch, they're like, if you don't admit you're powerless and that your life is unmanageable and work these steps, like you're going to die. And it's like, well, don't you know, like, I don't care. Like, that's what I was trying to do. So it's like I had to do that work first and find, like, my self-worth and my self-esteem and, like, the zest for life again before I could even touch or have motivation to do the steps. And I think through doing that work in conjunction with, you know, the steps and with the therapist and, like, finding, because my self-worth was in the negatives.

I had been told these narratives from this guy I was with and this abusive relationship, and just like my head was full of just lies and negativity. And so I had to do that work first and find purpose and worth before I cared about admitting that I was powerless. You talk a lot about self-worth and this loving family that you came from.

Why do you think you were so ready, to devalue yourself once you started going down the road of drugs. I think I got away from the connection of my family. Like there was started to be in a strange relationship. And I was surrounding myself with not good people. And, you know, when I first got sober, I remember being so angry at myself because I thought it was about strength and weakness. And like, you're smarter than that.

You were raised better. like, you know, how did you let this happen? You're walking around with the cane. You know, your mom's upset. And I just had to realize that, like, I have this disease. I have a spiritual malady. I have this physical allergy. And, like, it wasn't about choice.

Like, I didn't have a choice anymore. And but I really believe that I got away from the connection. And I, you know, got off the path a little bit. Did you have the tattoos before or after the sobriety? I had some of them before. This sleeve is a sobriety sleeve And then I have some tattoos on my legs for Because they were told me I was going to walk with a cane for the rest of my life

And I'm not So walking with a cane Walking with a cane So you stay at high watch for a year Sean you I mean you haven't left because you work there now Can you guys like let's talk about the joy a little bit Yeah

You know obviously the story is very powerful and emotional Can you guys just talk a little bit? about what it's like to be siblings in recovery and what life looks like today? Our dialogue is much different than it's ever been and the things that we find joy and having conversations about and our family reunions. My dad's one of 13. I mean, there's a hundred of us every two years they get together,

and there's a few of us that escape a couple times a week and go to a meeting. And like we kind of have our own group of sober family members within the family. and like that's really cool too. But it's like, you know, at the end of the day, man, it's like the ability to be present for each other. It's like the biggest gift that recovery has given me. And I'm going to give a shout out to Gary Fisher right now because we were, so I'm in the driving range in Kiowa

when I was about four years sober. And he just nonchalantly walks by me and says, hey, you know what, Sean, can you believe we drank and drug ourselves into these lives? And I think about that all the time because I wouldn't be where I am today. I don't think I'd ever have the relationship that I have with her specifically, my other siblings and my parents, that if I didn't go through the trials and tribulations, to eventually get beaten down into a place of reasonableness, to take some semblance of suggestion and find recovery.

And I wouldn't have picked up that phone that night when they called me. I wouldn't have had money to put in my gas tank to drive to Ohio. So that relationship dynamics today is like what they taught me in this 12-step fellowship is we show up no matter what. Yeah. And like that's what's most important. I mean, Sean, look, we've probably downplayed our friendship a little bit here. We're very close. I've never seen you like this.

Not many people have. What is going on? Is it just the emotions of recalling it? Is it joy? Like, what are you feeling right now? Because I think that's important for listeners to hear, I don't know, it's emotion. Yeah. To have the image in your head of what this disease can do.

And not just the disease of alcoholism, trauma, mental. health, right, being trapped in a relationship, all those things in those images that are still in my head of her walking down, scaling the walls in that hotel to like her sending me a screenshot Monday morning of a job offer. Like, you can't make this shit out of me. Yeah, if that's not the promises, I don't know what it is, you know, that's really cool. And then like to spin it on him, like all these people in our lives at work and, and, you know, friends that we've made in recovery and that know him how he is and it's like I got to see the other side and the come up and so it's like when I came into AA and recovery um I knew that it worked like I knew the AA work because I see it

happening you know and that's the thing that's so interesting about it's just that unique qualification that the three of us have to really be able to help someone else you know and you're probably not sitting in this chair talking to me unless you've seen you're senior brother and your cousin and these other people in your life go through and even seeing that you still held on to the idea that you weren't an addict not me didn't look like this it looked like that yeah i mean it's not necessarily the substance right yeah it's not the substance i mean oh it's the thinking it's like the if i have nothing to be grateful for today i always say i'm grateful for being relieved of the mental obsession because that is just

like if you know you know and it's it's got its grips on people is it public knowledge that you got this job um it's starting to be yeah are you gonna is that gonna be hard for you Sean I mean we still live together so like that's a blessing but like you'll commute to you yeah how far is it it's an hour okay three days a week yeah but the goal hope is that she's always going to stay connected to Highwatch and some per diem capacity. I'm going to miss her. You know, she technically works in the department that I oversee and she, you know, really holds it down in her position and she's going to be very, you know, missed in the role that she does there. So that's going to be hard. But like, there's so much of me that's just

so happy to see the hard work, like her grinding every weekend, working six days a week, studying for nurse. Like, I mean, she's done this thing. And, you know, she had a vision when she was in High Watch. She's like, I'm going to go to school. I'm going to do this. And like, over the past five years, I've seen her execute it. Yeah. And it's given me a shit ton of motivation. Yeah. I mean, it's been interesting for me because, Sean, I've known you a long time. I've had many, many people speak to me about the impact you've had in their life.

And I didn't know Kathleen from the next person. I mean, this is five, four years, five years over. Yeah. And then, you know, at release, some of these women start to come in now that know Kathleen. You know, and they're talking about you and the way that you've impacted them. And it's really the ripple effect is. wild. The ripple effect of the two of you getting sober and the number of lives that have been impacted. I mean, you can't, you can't quantify it, you know, and that's what makes recovery so

so special. Sean, what's next for you? I mean, I know she's going to go take on the world. I mean, spread the wings. You're at High Watch, which you want to talk a couple minutes just about the work you guys do there. Yeah, I mean, ever since I stepped on the hollowed grounds of High Watch, which has been in existence since 1939 and, you know, I came in a 12-step guy and the traditions of, you know, Bill being a part of such a fascinating, you know, treatment center. And like, you know, for 75 years, it was a spiritual retreat. People went up there and they sat in a chapel and they learned about the 12 steps and they left. And, you know, today we're much more of a sophisticated substance use disorder, treatment facility that has all levels of care. But, like, I've been to, I mean, probably over

150 facilities throughout the country. There's nothing that brings me the same feeling that I get every time I step on to the grounds at High Watch. There's something special there. If you go back and watch some of the early historians of High Watch, there's a video that describes like the place, this little cup in the hills on how you could cut it with a knife. It's that palpable. And so the goals for me is just to continue to do what I'm doing, try to beat Zach in a

marathon this year, would be absolutely. fantastic. Those are deeper aspirations, but. Well, I love you, Sean. Kathleen, by proxy, I love you too. I mean, you guys, I mean, here, just in closing as I sit here, completely blown away, having been moved to tears a couple times in this conversation, I, you talk about something special happening at High Watch. There's something special happening right here in this room right now, you know,

like and and the takeaways that the family can recover and what keeps coming up for me is you can have the best doctors, the best psychiatrist, the best therapist. The biggest thing I tell families is just don't give up. Yeah. You just got to hold on because your dad answered that phone call just like my dad answered my phone call and and so on. So good luck. Thank you. As a nurse. Thank you. I'm sure you'll be sending some people down to high watch that comment. What kind of insurance do you have? Sean, what do you tell families based on your experience? Yeah, I mean, we have our family education workshop this weekend on Saturday,

and I get up and I give a presentation for 45 minutes, and I'm going to go back to Father Martin Ashley. He has one of my favorite quotes of all time. He says, what happens when emotion and intellect collide? What wins? And emotion wins every single time. And us as treatment providers, you know, we're trying to play. provide intellectual information to make the best right decision for your loved one that's suffering

from substance use disorder. And sometimes we get so caught up in the emotion because I'm going to lose that battle every time. I can provide you with intellect all day long. Tell you what the logical thing to do is tell you the statistics. If you do this, then you have the best chance to stay and sober. But at the end of the day, until the family chooses to participate in the intellectual side of things, it's going to be really challenging for their loved one to get sober. So in a nutshell, that's how I sort of describe this, you know, in terms of the enabling and the boundaries and all of that kind of stuff. It comes down to, are we making a decision today based on emotion? Are we making a decision based on professional advice and intellect?

Yeah, Sean, you're a powerhouse in this field and in the community. I'm just grateful that you guys got so vulnerable. Is there anything you'd like, to say to each other before we close? I was thinking about, like, summing you up, you know, which is hard to do. And what came to mind was, like, language of the heart. Just, like, hearing you on phone calls with families at, like, 10.30 at night, just, like, grinding. And it's just, like, people...

Say it to him. Yeah, just, like, grinding, you know? And just, you're so passionate. And it really is, like, the language of the heart, you know? And I think that sums it up. Yeah. And if there's something that I could say is just the immense amount of gratitude that I have for our relationship today.

And I can meaningfully say that I love you as a brother, as a sober family member. And like I hope that there's going to be many more years of peace, tranquility. And, you know, our relationship of present mind moving forward. That's awesome. This has been great. Thank you, Zach. Thank you guys.