The Zac Clark Show - The Shadow of 9/11: Matthew Bocchi on Sobriety, Survival, and Inspiring Others

Episode Date: September 9, 2025

At 9 years old, Matthew Bocchi lost his father in the North Tower on 9/11. At 23, he got sober. In between were years of grief, addiction, and a secret he carried alone – sexual abuse by a family member. In this raw conversation, Matthew and Zac trace the line from trauma to addiction to recovery, and how speaking the truth can save lives. Matthew shares the call that changed everything, the moment of clarity that led him to treatment, holding his abuser accountable, and the work he does now – speaking to schools across the country, offering kids language and hope. It’s a story about resilience, community, and choosing to live.Matthew is the author of SWAY and recently celebrated 10 years sober.Content note: This episode discusses 9/11, addiction, and sexual abuse.Connect with Zachttps://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclarkhttps://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery:[phone]releaserecovery.com@releaserecovery

All right, so welcome back to the Zach Clark show here. Matt, Batchy's with us today. Matt is a speaker and author. Just celebrated 10 years of sobriety on July 24th. Incredible story. He's got this great book, Sway. He was one of the first kids of someone who lost the parent in 9-11 to write a book about it. So we've been trying to do this.

for a while, Matt, what's up, dude? Good to be here, man. Nice to see you. Yeah. We were catching up before. We got some mutuals. It's like I always, I'm always, you know, it's so funny. People always assume that sobriety is so lame. But then we start talking about all the people that we know and the community is undefeated. It's the best. It really is. Yeah. And I mean, like I got sober at 23 years old and I thought my life was

ending and then you see all the happiness and all the things you can do sober. And it's, I wouldn't trade this for anything. Yeah. I have more fun now than I did back then anyway. Yeah. So I love your story, dude. I love it. And I want to get into it.

What'd you do for your 10 years? Would you do anything special or how do you celebrate? Nothing crazy. This year was slightly different. I went to dinner with my sponsor and my wife. And my wife actually gave him my 10-year appointment, which was the first time she ever gave me a point. She's come to meetings, celebration meetings,

been there for it, but never wanted to, go up, say anything, too nervous. And this year, I was like, it's a monumental year. And I wanted her to be a special part of it. And so that was different. Yeah. When did you meet her? We met four years ago.

Okay. So in sobriety. She didn't see the wreckage. She didn't see the record. She noted that, too, when she was giving me the coin. She's glad that she didn't. She actually hasn't even finished the book in full. She looks at it as me being the story, me being the book.

And she likes to learn from me. But yeah, she wasn't a part of that past. And so you're living down in Florida, you road tripped up here, you got your Jersey kid, grew up in Morristown? Group of Maristown, yep. Did you go out in Morristown? Was that a... Yeah, yeah. Honestly, when we were in high school, strangely enough, we got fake IDs my senior year, and we would go to liquor store.

Like, I don't look that old now, but, like, I didn't look 21. Right. We'd walk into liquor stores with these fake IDs that were legit, and we'd get, you know, whatever we needed. Go to Maristown, sometimes come into the city, get into the city. get into the wreckage down the shore you know but wherever we could find it right right and so and so let's jump into this man so you're you're 33

yep so 9 11 you are 9 9 years old yeah do you remember the day yeah um I remember the day the days after are a blur I remember bits and pieces, but I remember the day. I'm the oldest of four boys. I had just started fourth grade a couple days prior, as you know, the East Coast, especially up here.

Yeah, like after Labor Day. Yeah, and so school just started. And as many people talked about, like, I remember going to school and just how, like, you felt that change in the air, kind of like that summer into fall shift, right? But it was so beautiful that day. It was so, so beautiful. Clear skies. Yeah. Yep, clear skies.

9 o'clock in the morning, roughly, my superintendent of the school, he would be in the school all day. He walks to our classroom and the classroom was like a wooden, had a wooden door with a little glass window. And he knocked on it, opened it up, came in, whispered something to my teacher, pointed to myself and a classmate of mine, a friend of mine, and told us to go into the hall. And I had no idea what was going on if I was in trouble. I didn't know what I did. and I walk into the hallway, my teacher follows me. And when I go through the door and turn in the corner where I see my brother Nick, who was the second grade, he was seven years old, he's sitting there with his teacher.

And my teacher finally gets into the hallway. She whispers something to my brother's teacher. And then they kind of grab us boys and they tell us that they thought a small foot hit in my dad's building. My dad was safe. There was nothing to worry about. They were evacuating. And my classmates' father worked on the 33rd floor and had no.

problem getting out they didn't know where my dad worked you know um what floor was your dad on my dad was on the hundred fifth floor at canter and um can i mean can i mean they they lost everyone yeah anyone who was there actually was strangely looking at this the other day um six people weren't there that's it so they basically lost the whole company that was in you um so and and so forgive me so if you were on the 30 third floor you got out i mean like you had a shot oh yeah yeah so um And I actually had my dad's brother-in-law, my uncle, worked on the same floor, at the same company, ironically. So basically... On the 105th or 33rd?

33rd, sorry. So Flight 11 hit from like 92 to 99, and the way it hit the building, there was no accessible staircases. And so if you were above the impact zone, there was no way out. People below the impact zone, too, a few floors below also didn't make it out because the way the building shifted and the way the floor is buckled, which not many people know. But if you were, generally speaking, if you were below the 92nd 4, you got out. And so there was all these stories about people as they were coming out of the North Tower. Hey, what four were you on? Just try to get as high up as they could.

And they quickly found out that no one above the impact, someone basically made it out. Wow. My dad called my mom three minutes after the plane, which my teacher in the school didn't know. Were there cell phones? I mean, was there, I mean, like, yeah. Yeah. My dad had a cell phone. He couldn't get through with his work phone.

And the thing that many people don't know either, my dad never called from his cell phone because there was not really great service in the building, strangely enough, even with the antenna on top. So he'd always call when he got out. And so that's sort of the miracle end of itself for many of the 9-11 families that they got those phone calls, that they had a chance to say goodbye. Many of them have voicemails, things like that. When my dad called my mom, and leading up to 9-11, he was talking about quitting. and he had what I truly believe

was a spiritual experience premonition two and a half weeks before he died where he just started talking all this crazy stuff saying he wanted to quit his job and find his happiness, pay down the mortgage and my mom was just so baffled by it, he was 38 years ago. Your parents were still married, I mean they're married four boys. Four boys.

And your dad's your hero. Yep. Yeah. My baby brother was born in June 2001. My mom had like a few miscarriages along the way so for him being born four boys my dad and my mom both wanted a daughter family was kind of full at that point right so um he called and my mom thought he finally walked out because he never would call during the workday and if he did it was never from the cell phone and he began to tell her that they thought a same thing my teachers

told me um they felt a small plane hit the building he was okay he was gathering his stuff he was getting to evacuate um and my dad was known to full pranks and jokes so my mom thinks this is another prank and the line cuts off and she was breastfeeding my baby brother she put him down change the channel on the TV and saw the smoke coming out and then she sees things unfold and unravel on TV that's the last time she ever talked about back and forth they went he'd call she'd pick up she'd hear static she would call his cell get through here static and then finally he got through to her and just said that he loved her and goodbye oh his brother my uncle was the last person that spoke to him

about 10 minutes after that no one from that point on spoke to him again so we are at August 19th year and you're coming up. I mean, like, it's a, like, what does this time of year do for you? What do you remember from those days? I mean, like, we talk about trauma. We talk about grief. We talk about all this stuff here on this podcast. And you've obviously, you know, owned your story and wrote a book about it.

But what is it, what are your takeaways? What do you feel this time of year? So it's kind of funny you asked that because last week I was down the shore and I was back with my community down there in meetings and people I haven't seen in three years. Yeah. And being in South Florida for the last three years and every single summer being down there, you know, we'd come up here maybe early summer, but never during this time a year. And there's a huge difference for me feeling wise this time being here because, you know, down there, school started already. So it's not the Labor Day school start post labor day school starting type of thing the change of the season It gets just hot right now very hot and then it gets a little bit cooler

Being here I feel the change in the air I'm in New York obviously I'm wearing jeans it's it's a different world right where I sense the summer's ending kind of And I I know what 9-11's creeping up any family member you ask anyone who lost someone that day they know they see the end of the calendar you know in August coming, they know what's coming, right? Yeah. So it's been a different feel for me now, of being back up here and around this time of year, you know. So you wear this, you wear this bracelet.

Yeah. What does it say? It says my dad's name and well, traits it underneath. John Paul Botching. John Paul Botchy. Yeah. And so. Legend.

Yeah. Big time. And so, yeah, I've gone through a few of them. You know, I started wearing him about a year after he died. My mom got him for us. A lot of family members got him and they would wear him. And as I was a kid, and I had a little wrist, I'd bend it to fit, and then it would break, and then I get another one. And so.

And do you know, I mean, and maybe this is not the right question to ask, but how did, you said all that six people got wiped out from that company? Like, what was the aftermath for that organization? I mean, how did they, well, I mean, how were the employees taken care of? Like, I mean, I mean, do you remember, was there a funeral? Like, it's just such a big loss. I'm just curious. Yeah. Well, there's layers to it, unfortunately.

I mean, most notably, Howard Lutnik, the CEO at the time, who's now in Trump's cabinet. So that's gotten a lot of mixed reviews from 9-11 families, right? He went on TV and some families didn't think he was being genuine, because he cut off all the salaries for the families. So we couldn't do anything. A lot of families couldn't do things until you got an actual death certificate. We were fortunate and lucky that my father was found pretty quickly. And whenever they found someone, you got the same death certificate and said death caused by homicide caused by multiple blunt force trauma.

That was what it said in the New York City's medical examiner's office. I struggled immensely after he died because of what I saw on TV when I came home from school. The only time they showed it that day in the afternoon was images of people falling. and I was fixated on that because I had been in that building in his office and at the windows in the world restaurant which was two stories above and a story above his office

and so I was really captivated strangely by it because I believed as I look back now it was the closest that people on, you know, you're seeing this on TV, people who were in the city, they always talk about that because it's the closest that we have to death

on that day. 3,000 people nearly were killed but that is to meet what you see so all these photos are coming out and you see basically my father's floors his company floors these people hanging out of the window and like if you go in the new world trade center and you look down like no one in their right mind would do that right gone i've gone several times yeah you haven't gone up oh yeah yeah i've gone to the memorial i've done some work with the memorial i did a book signing there um i went to the memorial on a closed day right close to the public

it was very eerie and i've gone my family several times we went to the to the to the the pools and then we went up to the observatory you did yeah and what is that experience I mean like a big dichotomy between going when it's closed and I'm by myself and versus when there's public there you go to the pools and you see people taking selfies you go into the museum you're not really supposed to have your phone but people will take photos I mean it's history but it's like my dad gravesite so it's kind of a strange place for me to be and I'm very picky about who I brought there right it's part of the reason why I knew like my now wife was

probably the one because I had no hesitation to bring her there. She didn't grow up in this area, so for her to go there was a different world, right? And that's the unfortunate reality for people who weren't in this area during that time. They don't, people, schools I go to South Florida, like 9-11 is just so foreign to them. Right. I mean, I was, I grew up in South Jersey, so we were, I remember being in history class or something, and the first plane had already hit, and then they put on the TV, it actually put on the TV in the classroom. We were watching it It's the second plane is kind of. Right.

And not a lot of, there was a couple kids who had parents, you know, that were working in New York. But it wasn't, it wasn't a ton. So for us, as high school kids, I mean, we, you know, we had no idea. I think we, like, took it as an advantage to, like, you know, like, have a day off from school or whatever. Like, there was just no education. There was no follow up. And I, I oftentimes, like, I'll be down. there and I you don't really understand the gravity of it until you are there yeah yeah and I

and I think that that's a big point that I try to hammer home to a lot of my friends who live in the city now especially because I was so invested in this obviously but as I got older more so where I would look at the footage and like you see the footage that the photos for instance of the surrounding streets and there's debris everywhere there's body parts not to be graphic about it But it was, you know, it was a war zone. I just don't think people understand that. Right. They go there now and it's beautiful.

What they've done there is absolutely beautiful. But it was basically hell on earth for people who were there. And when do you, when do you first remember not having a dad? Like, remember feeling like, because this happens when you're nine years old. Obviously, there was tons of trauma that we're going to get into and how that's affected your life. But I would have to imagine in those following years, you're lacking that male figure. sports was a big part of it my dad was one of my coaches would you play played soccer and baseball soccer and basically yeah and uh is he an athlete he was yeah he was and uh when i started doing more

travel soccer i remember going to certain games that i knew he would have been a very formative person to be there and just a big goal that i had for instance i remember like looking and it's just different My mom is trying to gather three other boys, young kids, like to sit down and pay attention to, you know, their brother playing soccer. She's not fully present either, right? And I just know my dad would have been. So, like, looking into the crowd, into the field and seeing the other dads, my friend's dads, that's where you feel more, you know. I'd go to certain school events where parents would be there and my dad wasn't. And we were the only family in my town at the time that lost someone.

my dad employed a kid who was he was 23 years old when he died um they were obviously an older family my school my brothers and i were the only kids so they dedicated the field after him it dedicated the gymnasium to to my dad's uh employee his name was matt salito and because he went to the same school um but you you could you just felt i felt spotlighted simply put and so as i got older, this label of being a child of 9-11, I carried it with me with honor, but it was also it was hard to. And what is your mom? I mean, your mom is raising four boys now. What, what is, do you remember is she is every day a battle? Is she just smiling through it all to try and make you guys? Like what, what, what? Rightfully. So she, she struggled. Yeah. And, uh, I say this often

now, this story at schools because it's funny how I've done a lot of trauma work on myself. Yeah. the last few years, which has been really eye-opening for me because I knew of a lot of obviously what I went through trauma-wise, but there was a lot of stuff I buried. And I'll never forget one time I came home from school. I was 12 years old and couldn't find my mom. And I find one of my brothers running around looking in all the other things you couldn't find her. I run upstairs to her bedroom.

I was told at 10 years old by my dad's dad, my grandfather, my nunno, that I had to be the man of the house. that was what I was told and I felt that pressure as a child it's a hard thing for a 10 year old kid to bear but I felt this immense pressure to be a father figure yeah you had to grow up quick

you're a boy how are you a father figure to younger boys right so anyway I run upstairs in my mom's room I find her and she's got this big pile of tissues and she's crying in her bed and I said those words and said mom don't worry like I'm the man of the house I'll protect you don't have to worry about me

I'll never let you down and I say how I broke that problem It's not even a year later, basically. You know, she started to worry. I started drinking, smoking. At 11 years old. 13, 14. Yeah.

But. Do you remember your first drink? Yeah. Yeah. I had just graduated. I mean, what did that do? I mean, what did that do? I mean, you know, that was probably.

I don't have, I don't think I have the, I shouldn't say, I don't have the typical drug and alcohol story that we hear. But my first few beers, graduated eighth grade, I was just about to turn 14 years old we stole a 30 pack from my friends older brothers and I was a little guy like I was maybe 130 pounds soaking wet doesn't take a lot

doesn't take a lot and I'm chugging these warm beers and I started throwing up and I'm like I'm not going to do this again and I didn't have the pull towards it when I started smoking weed I had more of a pull towards that because I felt like I could shut off the noise a little bit more and I have ADD so the noise is always kind of going crazy. But it was when I got older that I was introduced to other things that that's where I really, I felt the peace. So you're 13, 14 years old. You got three younger brother. Your mom is

obviously dealing with this the same way that you guys are. You know, like she's, I've always said like for parents, it's got to be so hard to be in a jackpot and know that you're not only have to take care of yourself, but your kids, you know, and feeling hopeless. And that has to be, it has to be hard. And so, I mean, I mean, gosh, like, so you're in, you're in high school now, you start drinking. How does this thing unfold for you? I mean, what, what do you remember about? Yeah.

I guess my question for you, Matt, is do you feel like you had the thing, regardless of whether or not your father passes in 9-11? Or do you think that was manufactured? No, no, I had it. 100%. I have it. Do your other brothers have it? No. Not that I know.

Yeah, not publicly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. You know, they've had their battles, but nothing crazy, right? I mean, we can laugh about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I respect the guy that can kind of, like, fly close to the sun and then still show up for life. I wish I was that guy at times, but I never was. No fucking way.

I had it in me. My dad's death, I believe, surfaced it sooner. I mean, look, I say this often. I had the traits, nine, 10, 11, 12 years old. You don't have normal 9, 10, 11, 12 year old boys are not obsessively searching, trying to figure out how their father died, right? My friends who lost their dads, not many of them, I had a couple that lost their dads that day too.

They didn't react the same way I did, right? I was ingrained in that very early. I don't know if he didn't die. I don't know if I would have gotten down the path, with, let's say drugs and alcohol, but there would have been something, right? I mean, I, even in sobriety, I had other battles, truthfully, and I shared it very candidly. Like, I battled with gambling. It was two years sober, and I started going down that road, and I was four and a half

years sober, and I'm like, I want to kill myself. I don't want to drink or drug, but I want to kill myself. Yeah. And that was an eye-opening experience for me, and I haven't gambled since. That was five years ago, almost. But as I was entering high school, you know, you mentioned, like, we were a parent going through and having to show up, my mom tapped into other family members to try to be there for us and help us out. And my biggest thing with my mom, and I love her to death and we're very close,

she couldn't continue the conversations that I was trying to have with her. And I mentioned the photos and all that stuff. I mean, that's just a glimpse. I mean, this was my life. I'd come home from school. If it wasn't sports season, I'd do my homework and I'd just be searching 9-11. And then eventually 9-11 takes over and then I'll squeeze him. my homework. I was always a good student. So you have a lot of thoughts on 9-11. I was just so into trying to figure out what happened to my dad, right? I mean, I knew of the phone calls. I knew they found him a few days later. We bury him 10 days later. And, and that's it. That was supposed to be the end. But it was just the beginning. Yeah. I mean, it's still gone, right? The conspiracies.

I mean, I mean, I can talk your, you're off for the, for days about this shit. You know, it's, it's, it became my life. Do you have, do you have a, do you have a hard stance on it? Conspiracy stuff? Yeah. Like, what is your, you? I believe that the government knew that there was going to be something. Whether they believed it was going to be the extent of what it was, I don't think so. I don't believe the buildings were taking down, you know, controlled demolition. I don't believe that. I've done a lot of, you know, thought on that.

But there were definitely people who suspect that something was going to happen and maybe could have prevented certain things and didn't. And I believe that, unfortunately, my dad was just caught in that. You see these crazy things, man. like people go on the internet and say the people in the buildings were fake and people in the planes were fake. I mean, you know. So that's where it kind of gets a little crazy. But, um, so my mom just couldn't continue the conversations, man. Like it was just, I was asking. Too hard for her. Way too hard for her. She was trying to move on. She was newly dating and she met someone. She got remarried. Nice. Good for her, man. That's all. She's happy, you know. And,

and I want that for her. Of course. As a kid, I didn't really want. want that. No, it's hard. I mean, like your dad is gone and it's scary to bring someone else into the home, but yeah, you know, we get one shot at this life and I think love is what a lot of people search for, right? Yeah, for sure. For sure. But yeah, she cut off the communications. And I think about that. I can't imagine like being intimate with someone after that, like all the things you have to work through. And that's like really where the trauma thing starts. Yeah. And I think that a lot of other widows, 9-11 widows probably dealt with some backlash. Oh, how soon is too soon

start dating. My mom was in my dad for 13 years. So it's, it's, no one will ever be him, but she was 35 years old when he died. How old was he? He was 38. And as I've gotten older now too, I see, like I, I've been

able to understand and come from a place of compassion fully. Whereas I kind of try to come from compassion but not really at times, right? Now I understand. Like, I mean, you lose your husband that way. you're so young your youngest son is an infant what do you have you know your life is just beginning yeah now it's changing so when do the wheels come off what what what is the thing i mean do you go

to do you go to villanova you went to bill nova okay so you go to villanova you you obviously did enough to get into a good school yeah right so you're keeping it together in high school and what happens between villanova and getting sober at 23 is it just is it insanity do you graduate Villanova? I did. Okay. Leading... Four years?

Four years. Damn, dude. You kept it together. I kept it together. I mean, it was a lot of dropping classes, making up for it in the summer. Going into my freshman year of high school was the... I had a family member who took advantage of me. That was like the biggest piece that I kind of buried for someone.

Sexually. Yeah. Yeah. Do you talk openly about it? Yeah. Yeah. Very. I...

Going into my freshman year of high school, just to paint a picture, right? I was on the Oprah Winfrey show. The episode title was called The Children of 9-11. Talk about the spotlight. Talk about this being my life. Like, there was no way I felt like I could avoid it. So as I'm entering my freshman year of high school, I do the show. And I had this uncle at the time, uncle through marriage,

who was grooming me for years. But I, strangely enough, had this ability to sort of spot it in the beginning. once I got so deep in this abyss of 9-11 I couldn't I was so vulnerable simply put and so he lied to me

and told me all these things that I wanted to hear at the time and I would find out years later it was all a lie but yeah he sexually abuses me for about a year and I went to an all-boys prep school man like you walk the halls

and kids are calling every bad name you could think of right so I didn't need additional spotlight so I said I'm not going to tell a single person and I didn't carry this with me and I would go to my counselor's office in high school and I did he convince you and this is too much no you're good man tell me but I appreciate that we've kind of walked this journey together and yeah part of what we do here is have conversations that maybe people wouldn't right now do you continue to go along with it and hold this secret because it's just too painful to tell anyone

or what is the or you just revere this guy or like I'm no no no yeah there was there was oh yeah there was just such deep levels of manipulation so um when it first happens um i i i was trying to stop it and i couldn't and so it happens physically strong physically yeah yeah i was a little yeah i was a kid yeah i got it um and eventually it gets to this point where he would approach me on things and there would be instances where he could seemingly take advantage of me and he just knew what to say to and that's what predators do right i've learned this through all the work i've done um predators know what to say and how to take advantage of someone and i mean i my therapy intensely in early sobriety was about why couldn't i have stopped it why didn't i stop it and my therapist

would say you were 14 years old a 14 year old kid can't walk into him like a store and buy alcohol, a 14-year-old kid in the state of New Jersey, can't go buy cigarettes, you can't enlist in the Army, you were a child, your brain isn't fully developed to you're 25 years old. And hearing those words and trying to still process it was still hard for me because I was like, I should have been able to stop it. And I also thought about my brothers. If I can't stop it for myself, then who's to say he's not going to, or someone isn't

going to harm them? And so take the father figure piece of my story and the idea that I need to be the man of the house and like, here I am, like, I'm a hurt kid. I can't stand up for himself. So he just knew how to manipulate me, and he said, if you come forward, this is what's going to happen and all these lies, and I believed it, right? He was powerful. Where he lived, he was powerful, where the people who knew him within my family, and he just

knew what to say to make it where a kid like me at the time would be way too petrified to speak up. So I didn't. And does that go on all throughout high school? No, no. So it goes on my freshman year. you know it wasn't every weekend thing no i get it but um eventually i get to this point where i'm able to not defend myself physically but say like i will i threatened that i would come forward

and i didn't obviously at the time um but i started to really use substances as my way in high school i wasn't deep into it but it was my way to sort of feel normal again like i already felt you're waking up every day with the secret like every day and is it the first thing that you think i mean like when you wake up in the morning is it or you're you're waking up in the morning is it or are you able to kind of compartmentalize it 100% I I was very successful at it into my sobriety into my early months of sobriety oh so this didn't come out for years this didn't come out until I got sober man like I was it was about 10 years after the fact and I get sober and I still wasn't going to say anything and just did it create confusion

with your sexuality or oh yeah I mean I'm a heterosexual male so you go to an all-boy school you have people who are mean say things that they you know You know, to hurt kids. Of course. I question. I'm like, how can I let it? It completely distorted my idea of myself. And I also, big part with the book, like I didn't get nearly as honest as what's in those pages.

My first draft was very shielded. There was no breaking down the barrier. My editor said to me, I think you just need to get really real and raw. And I was like, okay. And then I just, I got, I let it all out. And I was so afraid when I did. Is this how you did it? Is this how you told people?

No. No. Um, that, I started writing in July, roughly about a, as I was approaching a year's sobriety, July 2016, he got sentenced to prison in September of 2016. So someone else. No, because of me. Okay. I get to that.

I, my brother, my third youngest brother called me, um, um i was uh nine months sober about and he was still texting me i think he was afraid because now my mind was clear right i was sober that something was going to happen and he was texting me all these crazy things and my uncle i'm referring to and uh i was ignoring them and i do my first fourth and fifth step i have like a hundred plus people on the list he's not even on the list right My first sponsor was very detailed and regimented, and he was too much so. It took us three days to go through the fifth. He goes, you leave anyone off?

And the last day, I'm like, yeah, I left one person off. I tell him. And everything came to a head. My third youngest brother, who's my best friend, who's my best man, he calls me. And he said things on this phone call that scared me and led me to believe that maybe it was going to happen to him if it hadn't already. And I came forward. Wasn't planning on it.

Go home to make an immense trip. and I do all my amends. And on the last day, as I'm about to leave to go back to New Hampshire, my sober living, I end up telling my dad's brother. And my dad's brother's a lawyer. And he's like, you're an adult. It's your choice what you want to do. And I came forward.

It was very public. My name was hidden, but it was pretty obvious to figure it out. And he was facing 20 years in prison. I got him on a recorder line of meeting to every single thing in detail, what he did to me, my age, all of it. And you got him. I got him on a recorded line. And on the recorded line, he asked me probably three or four times, are you recording this?

Are you recording this? And I kept saying, and like the sexual deviants, right, for someone like that to continue the conversation. Right. It just shows to me how sick. Was he married with kids and all the whole thing? He had the whole thing.

The whole thing. Yeah. Big time construction company. Were your brother safe? My brothers were safe, thankfully. And what ended up happening was I came forward and there was a hotline and people called the hotline and they said it happened to them too from this guy they never wanted to come forward publicly and as a result the state gave him a plea deal

where i thought he was going to get 10 to 15 years he ends up getting his first degree sexual assault charges dropped down to second degree and basically the max he can get was seven he got sentenced to seven years he got out in four literally one week before my book came out he got out of prison and so talk about a mental mind fuck you know um so i have a lot of places i could go with this just take me back quick and then i want to get into yeah that but how do you get sober like what's the moment you just ask for help i mean like no so i was addicted at this point to opiates is my main thing right opiates benzos and you're in the heyday of roxy in oxy cotton and then the whole thing you're smoking up selling them whatever yeah yeah and again like

the relevant like how i did it how much i say this often it's not really relevant right because to me it's i just it's always more i need more and more more so i get arrested in charge of three felonies i was dealing pot and dealing pills and all the stuff you're back in jersey i'm in jersey i'm in jersey graduate villanova back in jersey you got a job graduate villanova get this job on wall street making all this money have no money selling drugs i get arrested i idiotically send this retainer sheet that I signed for my lawyer through the company's

like fax machine somehow they HR approaches me I'm able to lie my way through it nothing gets brought to light I don't know how I pulled it off I get sentenced to probation in the state of New Jersey in April 2015 for one year

and I was told about my attorney and he was able to work some magic but he was like you gotta stay sober he knew I wasn't sober he knew and I tried I came to a place in New York City I don't remember where it was. I met with the psychologist. He told me, if you get me an invoice showing you try to go to treatment,

I can work with the judge. I walk into the psychologist someplace. Don't know where it was. She sits me down and she goes, you will die if you continue. You will die. And you need to go to get treatment. We can't treat you here until you go through detox first. So I say, okay, on my way out, I'm like, can I get the invoice for our consultation?

She gives it to me and I give it to my attorney. he's that's how he worked it to this day i don't know where i went i try looking for it and trying to figure it out couldn't figure it out um so he tells me you got to be sober right and he's like the first drug test will come in a couple months they'll send you a letter in the mail you'll have two drug tests most likely in a year so i get the first letter in june 2015 i call my dealer who was on what's called um uh drug court in new jersey at the time it was called drug court and i was like what do you do because he would go in every day pass He'd call this number, and he'd pass.

He was like, oh, I get this detox mouthwash. They give me a mouth swab test. So, okay. Go to Patterson. I buy two bottles of it, buy two bags of synthetic urine. And my plan was to go in on the morning of drug test, tape the fake urine in my leg and drink the mouthwash, walk in, whatever. And I never will forget.

My grandma, I was him my grandma at the time. And I walked out of her house, and I had my suit and tie on. and I was going to go to Dover, New Jersey, take the test, going to the city after. And I walked past this mirror that she has by the door, and I catch a glimpse of myself at the corner of my eye, and I like stop and walk back and look. And I could describe it as a jumping off point

where I couldn't see myself continuing with it or without it. But I was just, I look at it and I'm like, it was despair. I saw myself, but it was just the shelf who I used to do. I mean, dude, I weighed 200, almost 250 pounds. I had no color in my face. Like, my body was shutting down on me. My metabolism was shot. Yeah, Zelle, 23 years old.

23 years old. And it was, I looked horrible. And so I went to the drug testing center. I pulled into my spot. I do what I do in the car real quick. Start drinking my mouth wash. And I walk in, I sit at the waiting room with water, drinking some water. I see guys in each corner, it's the middle of the summer, July 22nd.

And I see these guys in sweatsuits. And I'm, like, laughing in my mind, like, how I'm so much better than I'm. Right. So I'm going to go in there. I'm going to con the system. I'm going to walk out and continue. And I get called in my PO's office and I sit across from her desk and on her keyboard is the mouth swab and the packaging. And I'm looking at it. And I'm like, I looked down on my watch. I have about 20, 15 minutes of clean saliva. I'm like, this is going to be the easiest con ever. So we go back and forth. She looks at me and my eyes and she's like, are you going to pass the drug test today? I'm like, yeah, I'm going to pass. She goes, okay. She bends down and grabs the cup and hands a

to me and she's like go pee in this cup I stand up grab the cup and I'm like think you're it's not shot to my leg walk in peeing the cup and as I pee into this cup in this in this urinal a real sample real sample and I look to my left with a gentleman with this center they had an angled mirror and he's supposed to watch me through the mirror and I look to my left to watch if he's looking at me and he's looking at the door and I'm like I could have gotten away with it finish go inside sit down she goes for two months you had noticed this test I don't know this to cry for help you genuinely can't stop and I like immediately cut her off and I was like I want to get sober like I really do want to get help I want to change my life I've been in and out for two

years so I want to get better and she's like I'm going to give you one more chance if you come back in one month and you're cleaning sober I'll drop your charges down you will not go to jail you you come back in one month and you feel I'm sending you to jail that day I said okay deal and I went home and I uh I called out of work no one was at my mom's house right and um I paced back and forth for an hour figuring out what to do my mom's like how did the test go like I ignoring her text messages and uh I call my dealer and he goes go back in a month you know bring bring the fake urine yeah taking advice classic dealer advice classic substance abuse right like I'm gonna call my dealer for advice exactly exactly exactly call another buddy he's like go get go get go to treatment go to

rehab anyway I roll up a joint make myself a drink do what I do what I do walk outside of smoke this joint and as I spark it up outside I look up and it's like I'm like mesmerized by how clear blue the sky was right is that at night it's during the day yeah so blue and it brought me right back to the morning 9-11 I started hysterically crying and I was like dad please give me a sign I need help and as I'm leaning on this railing smoke in this joint this fly lands on the railing I talked about my dad having that spiritual premonition that same conversation with my mom he was like I'm going to die I'm going to die soon I feel like I'm going to die.

When I die, I'm going to come back as a fly. Why he said this, he said this to my mom. Why he said this, we don't know to this day. Your mom can vouch for that. My mom can vouch for it. And I kid you not, on September 12th, my mom was told to look for the signs. And that night, a fly was on my mom's nightstand. That fly didn't leave my house for months after 9-11.

My family members, my dad's siblings, you ask any of them, like they would see it on the window. The fly. Yeah, they'd open the window to let it go out. It wouldn't go away. My mom gets remarried, flies on the pillar next to where she's standing. I swear to God, she kisses my now stepdad, fly flies away. Like all these symbolic moments with this fly. I had plenty of them, man, like Philly, dead a winner.

I'm on a side street in Philly doing what I'm doing. And flies in my car. All the windows are closed. It's freezing cold outside. There's no. Yeah, it's dad saying, what's up, dude. So anyway, this fly lands on this railing. It's July 22nd, 2015.

and I'm looking at it and I'm just like stunned truthfully and for the first time ever man I put out this half finish joint I'm like I'm done truthfully I'm like I am done walk inside I call up a detox and I said I'm not sober right now please get me in tonight yeah it's that moment of clarity that was it and they were like well we can't get you until Friday remember I went to I went to sunrise detox in Sterling New Jersey you did detox and then no so I go July 24th is my sobriety date so two days later I check into sunrise detox i go there for a week and that was my spot i had been there already numerous times yeah repeat customer after the week they loved you they love me there after the week i go to sebruch house in

south jersey dude that was my first treatment or not was it your first or not that was my first my first full rehab yeah yeah yeah and then 33 polk lane yep and then from there i went to uh 133 go ahead i don't even bridgetown right yeah bridgetton yeah yeah so from there i go to a sober living in new hampshire where I live there for nine months. Granite? Which one? Granite, recovery. Yeah. Yeah, we'll talk more months.

I was there for, I was there for like nine months. Because I came forward about the abuse, they kept me in there longer. They thought I was, you know, vulnerable and whatnot. You might have been. I mean, I think I was. Yeah, it didn't hurt. Didn't hurt. Celebrated a year up there.

I'm living in an apartment. I moved back in September, 2016. And then that was that, man. The rest of history. Rest is history. Did you move back to New York City or you did you ever live in New York? Years and years ago before I got sober. I was living here.

I couldn't pay rent and I got kicked out and moved back home with my mom's. And then I was at my grandma's because she didn't want me to be alone while she was at the beach. What are you doing for work when you get sober? Because I want to get into the speaking. Yeah, yeah. And how you're honoring your dad's life. And I do want to circle back to when your uncle gets out. I mean, like, is that, do you remember that day?

Yeah. I there was a tracker called a tracker there was a website that you could go on and look up his name and see when his projected date was going to be for release so I went through three different no excuse me two different meetings with the parole board when he was eligible for parole the first time so seven years two years and he was eligible the first time I go I meet and I advocate for my case and say why he shouldn't get out they deny his parole eligibility another meeting probably a year after that same deal and then they tell me on that meeting if we deny him this time whatever they set his date to is going to be the date there's no more hearings the original date was December of 2020 sometime in December and I kept track tracking it and it was going lower it was like November early November October boom September and then it's like September book came out so I mean COVID they were pushing people out right they're pushing people out so it was September 8th my book came out he got out August 3rd

30th or September, something around that time. I had so much going on with the book that I was trying not to let this take over, but it was, you know, I'm going on live TV talking, telling this synopsis in five minutes and talking about that on live TV. So my sobriety in my life became very public. I was not planning for this. You know, I wanted the book to be successful. I wanted to.

Yeah, it's the same shit I went through. I mean, like, look, there's people out there like me and you that get our anonymity taken away. from us and that's fine you know like yeah yeah and truthfully i i i don't mind it at times i also feel like at times you know we're additionally spotlighted if you will that's fine but it's just to just stay sober and so that way an asshole exactly and my thing is not letting that piece of it take away from what i have to do for myself so my big question here is do you ever see this guy again i have never seen him again no no um i've seen my cousins before his kids

do they know the deal yeah and so there was a lot of resentment towards me they blamed me and my mom why my mom I don't know yeah it's fine they tried to say that we could have done this I could have kept this in the family and it's just like this guy was literally abusing other kids

yeah you don't have to sell me on it but you did the other thing yeah so the family was torn from there on out which is it is what it is and has he tried to reach out to you He can't legally. He can't be near me. You know where he is?

I don't know where he is now. They were supposed to update me anywhere he would move. When I left New Jersey, I think that maybe that they stopped updating me, but he can't be near schools. He can't be near churches, anywhere where kids could possibly be, basically, he has to be a certain proximity away from those areas, which is crazy, right? I mean, you're just walking around. Yeah, I just, I mean, like, I was curious where that was going to go. go because in, you know, in A.A. and in recovery, I guess my question is, did you, do you forgive him or there's no shot in hell? Strangely enough, I have forgiven him, but I don't forget.

Right. I wish, you know, I try to explain this to people close to me. They don't get it. I can't carry it with me. I can't carry. I can't carry the hatred. But I will say, like, I'm 33 years old. This happened 19 years ago. I still think about it. I still wake up from nightmares from it. You know, it's always, it's on my mind. And because of what I do, I talk about it. But I've come to a piece with it too. And that's the beauty of it. I would not have been able to do it if I wasn't sober. I tapped into AA in the program very heavily in my sobriety. I mean, I had my ebbs and flows of when I battled with gambling addiction, right? Where I, I was going to meetings, but I wasn't present.

But, I mean, through all those parole hearings, all the things, like, my biggest thing was the fact that the reason why I came forward in the first place was because I was in my sober living and a guy who was this big, tough guy, 6-5, tats, jacked, talked about being abused in a room full of 40 men, and I look around the room and no one's laughing. And I was so amazed by that. I couldn't understand that. And I walked up to him after and I said, listen, we'll let you know, I went through something very similar and you inspired me and he goes you and i verbatim you and i'm not the only ones in

this room we just have the courage to speak up i heard those words and i and i apply that to my life and i haven't stopped doing it yeah you helped a lot of people man i try no i mean it's i can tell you i mean like just you're helping me today just to understand it allowing me to ask these questions allowing allowing me to be naive to it right like these are questions that i think I've had around these situations that without asking them I would never have the knowledge and it's scary man, kudos to you.

Thank you. There's still such a stigma with it. I've been to some very big shot meetings in New York, in Miami, and you name it, right? And you go in there and you say those words and there's going to be someone else in that room. And I'm not just talking in recovery rooms, but in schools, go to a restaurant.

I mean, guarantee there's someone in that room. They're not going to announce it, but they've got to. Yeah, it's a real part of, it's a real part of our world it is and there's a lot of sick people there's no surprise to me why i went down the road i went down i don't blame my father's death for going through addiction i don't blame the trauma directly but it did play a role it definitely played a role and so when do you decide i mean look you're you're your year so what are you doing for work i worked at a hockey store okay so you're working at a hockey store making nine dollars an hour making nine bucks an hour

shout out to the sober job yep you're obviously now 10 years later just having celebrated you know 10 10 years in July, speaking 75, 80 times a year at high schools all over the country, sharing your story, helping kids, helping young men, helping young women to understand that they have permission to, you know, be vocal about their stories and feel the way that they feel. And I love that. What was your first gig? When did you know that you were going to follow this path? I was nine months sober and I got approached after an AA meeting from a gentleman who lost his daughter to the disease of addiction. And he said, I want you to come to schools with me.

I'm going through schools. So I go to these schools. Just because you heard you talk? He heard me talk at a meeting, share my story. So I started going to these schools, and our idea, the premise, was to remove the stigma, to show that this affects anyone and everyone. And my whole spiel was like, yes, I went through traumatic childhood,

but I really had, I didn't want our need for anything. My dad worked very hard. He came from nothing, and he worked hard to be successful and provide a life that he never had. But he made us be very aware that hard work got him to that point. We weren't, my mom will say, like, at times he spoiled us, but we weren't like those tickets. Yeah, or not given.

Exactly. So, anyway, I'm at this meeting. I started going to these schools. There was no financial incentive. It was just experiencing anything and hope, and I wanted to do it. And I'd go there, and I was nervous and, you know, maybe get through to a couple of kids. But then one time I go there, I never talked about the abuse at this point. one time I go to a school in New Hampshire and I talk about being abused and the senior boy comes up to me after and he says I want to let you know that you saved my life and I'll never forget this conversation and I quote it often and I said I was like I was so shocked by that and he was like I went through that too and I want to talk about it too so thank you and I said to follow up of them to this day I haven't heard from this kid and it's something I always wonder because I give him

the credit for where I'm at today because I said to him I'm not even a year sober I'm trying to save my life but thank you and he said you should write a book this is a senior in high school I'm like I'll consider it in that summer I started writing that book and so that was the early days book comes out the TV stuff's going on I get these inquiries from schools and I started going into these schools one of the first schools I spoke out when I committed to doing this was my brother's alma mater now where I went to high school COVID I had a to wear a mask. Kids are sitting six feet apart. They had to film it because they couldn't have all the seniors from the school in one setting. Yeah. It was just different. And again, man, like,

that was four years ago. My story and the way I approach it has changed tremendously. How are you earning cash? How was that earning? Like, you weren't working at the hockey store anymore. So, like, prior to that gig. So there's a little bit of a gap there. So, yes, I started, I'm doing the hockey store. And then I started working, I came, I moved back to Jersey. I'm writing the book. I'm working for my uncle part time to have some cash. I'm at my mom's house. I'm 24 now. You're bootstrapping it. I'm I'm I had nothing. Yeah. I had nothing. Um, I had no laptop at the time. I had to borrow my brother's laptop to write my book. I love it. You know, I, but I was hungry. And I, I wanted, I, I sensed that there was a purpose. And so I get my book deal. I went back into finance in

between this time. So from May 2017 to when the book deal happened in February 2020, I was in and out of different corporate jobs, again, hating it, speaking on and off, no money, no financial gain. But I knew finance wasn't for me. My dad wanted to quit. He didn't get the chance. And I said, I'm not going to do this to myself. I'm going to pursue my happiness, my passion. I'll be honest, man. As much as I'm speaking now, it's, I work hard. it you know no you got it i mean we were talking about this before you know anyone who's a public speaker or self-made or doing that work i mean you have to send thousands of emails you get one response you get one response you might get one phone call you might get one opportunity to go

speak yeah and i mean now it's it's word of mouth and stuff like that's happening where i'm very grateful for it but um how long is your talk for the kids is like 30 minutes yeah five minute intro video 30 minute talk parents do they raise their hands the biggest thing now the kids are talking about is is the abuse yeah and that's where it's again i'm not trying to just make that the focal point but the kids are connecting to that and that's where i applied those that boy's words nine years ago these schools providing some follow up resources yeah yeah yeah you got to make sure that right my biggest thing is directing kids i always hear trauma stories and i always hear kids talk about substance abuse yeah any school i go to yeah to me there's something greater going on beneath the

surface and that's what we're trying to uncover and so i'm trying to point these kids in the right direction of where to go i've seen kids who were 17 years old addicted to fentanyl i mean so your first paid speaking gig are you you just met your now wife right is that yeah it was it was yeah actually it was uh one of my first paid speaking gigs i had just met her two weeks prior yeah i mean that's and that's the thing that i try to i hope some people will take away from this is that you can i mean your story is one that tells the guy or girl out there that is struggling with the idea of being sober that you can literally build the life you want you've done it you've built the life that that you want i mean you you have your own business you're speaking all over the world

yeah two little boy two boys two puppies two puppies oh no kids all right cool well congrats and like and and and and it didn't happen overnight no and truthfully man like i don't live and you can attest this yeah you know i follow you i know i see your journey And I got sober very young. One of my best friends to this day who's got now 14 years. He told me, you need to be comfortable in your own skin. And you have to accept that you're going to be in settings where there's going to be booze and there's going to be things going on.

Because I'm sober, it doesn't mean I've limited in my life. No. You know, I met my wife in Miami. You know, I've gone out to clubs, name it internationally in this country. I mean, I'm not a clubber, but like I've been able to go in those settings because I'm comfortable with who I am. I know my limits. I know what I go to weddings.

sober, obviously, right? It's like, I know when it's time to leave. But I'll go up there and I'll tear that dance for up sober. You know, it's like I can have fun sober. Um, I got to ask you one question. Yeah. If I, if I don't, I'll feel like I'll be doing this disservice and feel free to answer it however you want. It might open another kind of warrants, but how did the abuse affect your relationship to sex? It affected it intimate. It affected it tremendously. Um, more like you went, you went, like you leaned into it heavy or you were scared to have sex? I let women, use me for sure at times, but like I, there was times where I was afraid. Right. Because I was afraid if I got vulnerable with a woman sexually that she would use me for whatever and leave me.

I was afraid that I wouldn't have true love because of that. And as a result, I also questioned myself with, when I wrote the book, what would women think of me talking about this stuff? but the complete opposite has happened they commend the honesty they commend the vulnerability because they wish other men would be honest like that too it takes a lot I will say I pride myself on that that I took took a lot of guts to write what I wrote if I could redo it man maybe I would leave a few things out but I mean I don't I don't have any regrets you know we all are just thinking about ourselves everyone's so self-absorbed man it's like yeah I got it man I I get it. Well, this was awesome, man. Anything else you want to say? I mean, look, the book is called Sway. If you want to book this guy, we're going to tag him and all that stuff to come out, schools, corporate events, colleges, recovery, treatment programs, whatever it is. But he's got a powerful story. He's doing it. Not for free anymore, but he's built a nice little life for himself, Matthew Bachi. Anything you want to close with, anything you want to make sure that you say that you didn't?

I always ask that. And I never. It's good, dude. Man, my mom, when I got one year sober, I was in the sober living for nine months, and I never noticed the sign. But my mom got me a plaque. People say it's a Confucius quote. Some other people say it's something else. But it's our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall. And those are words that I practice in my life.

I mean, I've been sober for 10 years, man, but I've fallen countless times. I haven't slipped, but I've had my, I've had my battles. In sobriety. In sobriety. Me too. No one's perfect. And that's, I think that's a good place to end. That's something that we got to smash, right?

Like, whether you're sober or not, no one's going to do this thing perfectly. Correct. Period. End of story. Yep. Getting sober does not mean that we are required to live a certain way. Yeah. And in fact, we're going to make mistakes.

The hope is that we're able to use some of our tools and go out and amend those mistakes before it kind of gets away from us. Yeah. So, yeah. Dude, I'm rooting for you. Big fan. Thank you, man. Likewise. I can't wait to see.

I'm proud of all the work. Madison Square Garden, I'm speaking. Thank you, man. I'm proud of all the work you're doing, too. It's an inspiration to people like me. Good stuff. Matt Batchie, baby.

Later.