The Zac Clark Show - Tony Winner Lena Hall: From Blackouts to 10 Years Sober

Episode Date: September 17, 2026

Tony and Grammy-nominated performer Lena Hall joins Zac for an honest conversation about addiction, sobriety and the side of success people rarely see. A Broadway veteran who won a Tony for Hedwig and the Angry Inch, Lena has built a career spanning theater, music, film and television, including her current role on Apple TV’s Your Friends & Neighbors. Lena opens up about how wanting to fit in eventually became a cycle of drinking and using to the point of blackout – even as her career was reaching new heights. She shares how debilitating panic and anxiety finally led her to question her relationship with substances, and how curiosity helped carry her into sobriety. Now 10 years sober, Lena reflects on childhood pain, AA and Al-Anon, mental health, her experience with ayahuasca and the complicated question of what “sober” actually means – along with creativity, Broadway and why she continues to share her recovery publicly. Connect with Lena https://www.instagram.com/lenarockerhall/ https://www.instagram.com/labiahead_band/ Watch Lena on Your Friends & Neighbors https://tv.apple.com/us/episode/this-is-what-happens/umc.cmc.36i6dji213wclhgotvqb214b8?showId=umc.cmc.74o37kzay0yuuub8iumddjsg&action=playSmartEpisode Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My brain told me it was okay on my 30th birthday. I was like, you know what? I'm an adult. Like, I've been on Broadway. I can experiment. What's the problem? This conversation was not what I was expecting. Lena Hall is a Broadway Tony Award-winning actress for her work in Hedwick.

She's currently on the show, your friends and neighbors. But what I didn't understand was what was underneath of all that. It didn't seem crazy. the outside. You know, it's email, oh, she parties twice a week maybe. But I would use and drink till blacking out. I barely remember anything. It just like took me on a terrible, terrible journey. But the thing about sobriety that a lot of people don't realize is... Thank you for being here. It's my pleasure. I love when you sat down that you said, I love talking about this stuff. Sobriety and really life, I think, is at the root of

of all of it. When I Google you, the first thing is always your name change. When was the name change? And can you tell us that? I mean, like, you were not born Lena Hall. You were born Selena. I mean, I'm not even going to say it, right? Selina Carvehaw.

Carvajal. Yeah. I was getting there. Carvajal. You're getting there, yeah. It's a Spanish-Philippino descent. So, Celina Consuela Gabriela Carvajal. That's my born name.

Oh, baby. And it's a great name. But I was having an issue in the industry of like getting cast correctly, I guess, for actually my outward appearance. And then I was also at the same time I was like in a rock band and we were coming up with fake names for the rock band. And I was like, well, I'll just be Lena Hall. That's kind of a cool name. And then a very successful person that I look up to, I asked the question of should I change my name professionally just to get my foot in the door? more for things that are more appropriate for me. And they were like, yes, absolutely 100%. And when I changed my name, that did kind of happen. It just kind of jelled everything that I was working for at that time, jelled together and just kind of came to fruition under that name, which is bizarre because my whole life, I was Selena Carva Hall. And then the minute I changed my name to Lena Hall, I won a Tony Award. And my Tony Award is, it says Lena Hall on it. So it's kind of a little,

you know, it's like a little bit strange that I've made this name for myself from a name that's just like a shortening of my... When was that? When did you win the Tony? 2014. So you were not sober. I was not sober. I saw some clip of an award speech where were you in talks?

No, like you were just surprised or like what, like, right? Wasn't there like you just did not expect it or? No, I did not expect it. I was really tired because of the whole, the whole day of the Tony Awards is kind of insane. You go in the morning. You do a pre-record of the performance. Then you go to your theater. You get ready for your matinee.

You have to do a matinee on the day of the awards. And then after your matinee, you get dressed. You do the red carpet. You do all the press. You sit down. You wait for your category. And then your category is called. But the excitement and stuff, you don't sleep the night before.

I was probably partying the night before, too. I drink a lot during Headwig, by the way. That was probably like one of the biggest, like, hindrances of a lot of my decisions during the Tony Awards and the interviews and stuff like that was that I was not clearheaded at all. Because the show was such a hit, everybody would come backstage after every show and there was a bar backstage. And every time we would have a drink. And that is like eight shows a week. You're having whiskey and whatever.

That was my choice was whiskey. And it just, it became a habit, you know, came very habit forming. And then it just, that became the norm. I did spend that year very hazy. And so that speech that I had, though I was not intoxicated, I was very tired. I was not altogether, like, completely, like, grounded. And I was very manic. Yeah, very manic.

I was shocked because I didn't think I was going to win at all. So I was absolutely utterly shocked. But I was also kind of like, you know, totally not pulling it together. Well, congrats. I mean, it's awesome. I mean, I know it's 12 years ago, but who was the coolest person? Because when you do a Broadway show, right, you have guests and you're kind of like, I have to host afterwards, right?

Is there an element of like, hey, so-and-so is at the show tonight and they want to come? Who was the coolest or who was like for you the coolest? Oh, man. There was one show where we had Whoopi Goldberg. No. It was Whoopi Goldberg. It was James Earl Jones and Richard Chamberlain. And there was a few other really famous people in the.

room, but those were the three that I remember, and I can't remember who else was in the room, but there were like six really famous people in the room. And I was like, I walked in the room and they were like, who are you? Because I looked very different on stage. I played a man. So when I would walk into the room, I'd have to explain who I was on stage to these people. And it was like, there's would be Goldberg. And behind me, the soft, soft voice. And I look and it's James Earl Jones. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah. That was really, really cool. really really cool that's amazing yeah i mean i love when creatives support creatives you know and and it's like so when like a whoope that's very cool the other thing that just came up for me it's just

the life of called a celebrity an influencer an actor a singer a dancer people on the outside think it is so easy like you just show up and dance and you make all this money but you just laid it out for us i mean there's like a lot of 16 to 18 hour days back to back to I mean, can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. The industry in general is it's constant networking. It's also constantly building something for yourself. So you're actively working on projects, ideas, talking to people.

You have to network with people. Like you have to go to parties. You know, it is a constant 24-hour scroll. There are no 9 to 5, you know. There's no end. And it's just like you wake up in the morning and you deal with all the business elements or the emails or whatever. You get some creative time. And if you're doing eight shows a week, then you do a show at night.

But it just – and then you go out afterwards. So it's like no – there's no real downtime for creatives. It's a constant push. And now with social media and all that, it's even more of a push. Which you're very funny on social media. I don't know if you know this, but you are. Thank you. Yeah, no, it's good because it's –

You can tell that it's not, like, you don't want to be this, like, clean, perfect thing. It's like, it's just who you are. Yes, correct. Yeah. I was never going to be like that movie star, you know, that's unapproachable. Like, I'm, I'm unfortunately just this completely, like, wild, like, open. I don't, you know. And I'm, and I, I love comedy.

Like, I love making people laugh. I like, I love being relatable because I am a messy person. I am not this perfect Charlize Theron or like I'm not and I'm not serious. Like, you know, Angelina Jolie is very serious seeming. I'm sure she's got. Are they all serious? Do you know behind? I mean, like, do you have any?

Yeah, it's hard to tell. It's hard to tell. But you look at their public image, you know, and their public image is very well crafted, very well. It feels painful. I know. And I'm like, I can't do that, you know. I've even been kind of slapped on the wrist sometimes for, for, you know,

not being a serious actress on my Instagram or whatever. And I'm like, but that's not me. And I can't fake it. I don't want to be fake. Like the whole world, social media, it can be so fake. And like, I'd rather just be someone that's really like relatable because, you know, I want my struggles out there. I want my like mistakes or my, I want it out there because I think it's so important for people

to see that representation. especially in like TV film and like that is such a high. Well, and in sobriety. And it's a good point that you make and it brings up something for me around we were talking about it before. You're 10 years sober. Obviously it's been a roller coaster like it is for all of us. I think the masses your 10 years sober and think perfect. Like you are a perfect angel that does nothing wrong because now you don't have.

two drugs and alcohol, but it's quite the opposite. You just kind of like spoke to it around being like messy. And then the other thing that we're seeing and like messy, but also just like everyone's messy. We're just willing to talk about it. That's what I meant by that. Yeah, like I don't want to say like here, you're mad. But anyway, you get it. But then there's this whole like wave of people coming in right now, these like influencers

and quite frankly young people that are like a year and two years and four years sober and they're making this thing look really attractive, which I appreciate. Can you speak a little bit about like what sobriety really is, like what it has been for the past 10 years? Yeah. The first, so, God, first of all, like, the decision to get sober in general is a really hard one to come by

because a lot of people have a hard time. I'm coming to terms with the idea of never being able to do something again. It's almost like makes it more. You want it more because you're like in your head. You're like, I'm never going to do this again. And it's like, but now you really want to do it because you're putting this limit on yourself. It's like the guy like, what do you mean? I'm not going to be able to like have a glass of champagne when I walk my daughter unborn

child like down the aisle 27 years. Like, dude. Yeah, that's a it's a big concern for like a lot of people. And for me, what really helped was I had this at the first, so for the first few months, which I think is like, it's the hardest thing to like really commit to. I had this curiosity. It was like, all right, what am I going to be like if I just stop putting this stuff in my body, if I stop doing drugs and I stop drinking?

What's going to happen to like my body, like vanity? And then also what's going to happen to my emotional state? in my brain, like this anxiety, these panic attacks, are they going to go away? Is it all going to kind of soften out? And I found that my curiosity is it kept pushing me further along the trail because I was like, well, that was a month. Now what happens if I do it for another month? And then so on and so far. So I started to like get really curious about my own health and then also my mental health on top of that. At the same time, people had suggested like A.A. or something like that, I knew about that. And when I went to A.A., I didn't really hear my story, my struggle. And so I was

kind of having a hard time, like, getting on board with A.A. But then someone had suggested that I go and try out Al-Anon. And Al-Anon, you know, is for the loved ones of addicts and stuff like that. And so when I went to Al-Anon, that's when I heard a lot of my story. That was more like my story, my childhood story. Did you grow up in an alcoholic home or was it? I grew up in a drug-filled home and a lot of alcoholics were my parents' friends. And I was exposed to alcoholics all through my childhood. Sometimes I was left alone.

Where were you living? Where was that? In San Francisco in the Hayd Ashbury. My dad, he was this guru of ballet back in the hippie times. You know, he was like the first person. that did like a psychedelic ballet and he he really experimented with acid and things like that. And while my dad stayed pretty grounded, his friends who would come by, the house used to be a commune. These people would come by as ex-dancers and they had kind of gone off the deep end with alcohol and with drugs. And so I was very exposed to that throughout my entire childhood and I didn't

quite understand what that was. And so of course. And your parents did not try to to shield you from it or that was just kind of the way you were living? It was kind of the way it was. Yeah. I mean, I think my mom was trying to hide it a little bit, but they didn't try that hard. I mean, they would sit and smoke pot in a pot circle, you know, down the hall from my room. And I would get really mad at them because I hate the smell of pot. And I would like, I would be like, can you guys not do that? And then I would go into my room and I'd slam the door because I didn't like, you know, I didn't like the smell of pot. It almost felt like I was being, you know, ignored for them to do that. So I did discover a lot within Al-Anon. I also went to ACO-A, which was really wild.

The red book, right? The red book. Yeah. I mean, you really want to get deep in there. That thing will tear you sheds, but it's really good work. Those are some of the heaviest meetings, the ACOA. I mean, like, yes, it's tough work. It's hard.

I mean, like, I've dipped my toe in. out of, you know, it's tough. It is really tough. But the thing about sobriety that a lot of people don't realize is that it brings up all the uncomfortable stuff that you're hiding, that you're trying to get rid of in some way that you're trying to mask from yourself. And so all of this uncomfortable stuff of my childhood abandonment issues and like growing up with all these alcoholics around me

and feeling really uncomfortable being left with these people. And that started to like really come up to the surface. And I found that like... In sobriety. In sobriety. Right. Yeah. And it's like that kind of emotional stuff

is what makes us want to drink again because you just, it's really hard to face. And it's really messy. It's really messy. And like just getting through these, like the emotions come and go. So that's the thing. It's like just ride the waves.

Like you'll make it through. And the only way that that was that writing the wave really like that worked for me was that constant curiosity about, well, what if I? What if I keep going? Like if I drink, I know what that is. I've done that. I've been there and I'm a mess. But what if I keep going?

What if I keep trying to improve this? What if I keep digging into this childhood stuff? What if I asked questions that I had never asked before? That was what was kept me like really on the beam, essentially. Was this like constant curiosity of what if? Some people need a different program and they need a different thing to keep them on the beam. My story is a little bit different than someone who goes to AA because for me, drinking was about impressing people. Drinking was about being the girl who's cool. Drinking was about being some kind of a persona that people wanted to be around. Do you know what I mean? Of course, yes.

I mean that and if not, like at the very least, being the person that I wanted to be around or that I could be around. Yes, yeah. Which is the saddest part. Yeah, exactly. Like that self-hatred. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, which is why I found more of a connection in now and on, I think that the self-hatred, But of course, I think everybody kind of deals with it. I don't know. Anyone who doesn't hate themselves in some way. I've never met anyone who's like so healthy that they don't beat themselves up, especially in my industry too. Yeah. Oh, it's so tough, right?

Mm-hmm. But the, you know, but the way to get through all of that is to continue to just have, I think what worked for me was the curiosity. to do it. Yeah. And it wasn't necessarily the stop point. It wasn't like, you're never doing this. It's like, what happens if, you know, I've been down that road. So what happens if I go down this road? And I'm just going to keep going down it until, you know, I pick a new road. But what is that road going to be? And so are you, as Alonon really like kind of your program of choice, is that really where you stayed and kind of made your connectivity and throughout this journey? Is that, am I allowed to ask that? Are you like, yeah, I did.

I did do Al-Anon for a long time. After a while, though, it was actually specifically during the pandemic, I stopped hearing things that were helpful, and I started to feel kind of bogged down by the stories I was hearing. And so I took a step away from it because I did feel like I was like, I was getting a lot from it, but also at the same time, it's starting to depress me, hearing everybody talk, you know, and it was a really difficult time.

But I think that the pandemic kind of broke, it broke a lot of people. Yes, it did. Really did to be isolated like that and not be able to get in person for meetings. A lot of the meetings now are only online. And something changes when you're not able to be in a room with everybody. You know, Zoom's great,

but, you know, there's only so much you can do when you can't get into a room and feel the energy there. No, I'm with you. I struggle, I mean, in all things in life, like I just, I want to be around people. Like, I've, I lived in such isolation that, you know, being invited anywhere as a gift. So what kind of drunk work?

I mean, like, you know, like, when did you start drinking? When did this whole journey start? Well. I mean, growing up with dancers and performers and, like, being in this commune environment, I'm very fascinated by that. Yeah, it was not a typical journey. I was adamantly against drugs and, like, really scared of alcohol all through my childhood

and my teens, like, getting drunk for the first time. I think it was, like, 16, and, like, I drank, like, a cider or something. And it was, like, it was fine, but I was, like, so scared, you know, I was terrified. The cops are coming. My parents are going to run out, like, whatever it is, yeah. Yeah. And then and even throughout my entire 20s, I drank maybe one drink here and there, but I was not, I never touched drugs. It wasn't until I was in a rock band.

Is this the radio head tribute band? No, no, this is a different one. It's defunct now. It's called the deafening. Okay. But I was in a band. I was in that band. Do you have thoughts on Pearl Jam?

Do you like Pearl Jam? I love Pearl Jam. You do. Yeah, it was on Pearl Jam radio. Okay. You were. Oh, yeah. How did I not hear that?

I don't know. I'm an avid listener. Maybe you were and I just didn't clock it. And now here you are today. I mean, I'm, you know, Serious 22. I mean, that's like, I have all my presets to that. You do? So there's six Pearl Jam records behind you.

I know. And the company release is named after their song, Release. Oh, nice. Yeah. I covered release. I did a cover of it. I released release. Where is this?

Cheye, you got to find that. It's on Spotify. And then on YouTube, I put this. the music to this little video that my dad videoed of me dancing around the living room. No fucking way.

It felt so connected. And I love that song to me. It just like connecting. It's a song about your dad. With my father so much. Yeah, I just lost my dad last year. But yeah, I'm a huge Pearl Jam fan.

Like huge. You covered release. That's a, that's a, that's a, I respect you stepping out into that world. I mean, that is a hard one to cover. And it's a deep cut because not, not a lot of people like, Remember, because when you listen to the album, remember, it came on later?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I chased, I mean, like, I chased that song, chased it. And then I remember I went to the show in Philly in, it must have been like 2016 now. I don't even remember when they covered, they did 10 front to back in Philly. It was like their whatever, 10th cell out there. And like, it usually opened with release that night they didn't because they kind of like screwed with the audience a little bit and then launched in, to 10 and releases at the end of the album.

So, like, you know it's coming and there's this anticipation and it was just one of the more spiritual moments in my life. I've not ever seen them live. You got to. I know. Why Radiohead? Your current band, your current cover band is Radiohead. You just love.

I love Radiohead, too. Yeah. Radiohead is their music is really complex. And I don't know. I just, the lyrics are really, Like, they, you know, they hit me personally. So, I mean, the song is so famous. It's creep.

But, like, every time I sing creep, I'm like, this, I'm speaking about myself. I am that weirdo that just wants to be cool like you. Like, I feel like I'm on the outside staring in and just dying to be that cool. That's how I've always felt about myself. To this day still or have you, have you? To this day still. to this day still. When someone's like, you're so cool, I'm like,

I'm not. Literally, the girls that met you at work at release on the fourth floor that like kind of toward you, quick tour, said hello. They came in there, she's so cool. So I'm like sitting here like, you know, fake it until you make it. No, I just, I don't, I'm not even aware of how I come off. I'm just like, for me, I'm still that little girl that like was forgotten about,

you know, I had to walk home. alone when I was really little because my parents didn't come pick me up and we didn't have cell phones. So I'd walk all the way home with my backpack. I'd get home. I was locked out of the house. Like I'd sit there, you know, like I peed myself because there was no bathroom. I had to go to the bathroom and I couldn't get into the house. Like it happened often enough that it really like changed how I think about myself where I feel like I'm I'm I disappear and I get forgotten about you know like I don't like I'm not I'm not there I'm not important enough to remember um that's that's my childhood like trauma of of that is being left alone a lot do you so I believe that a lot of people

that struggle with behavioral health have similar experiences and not similar in the sense that they had to walk home and they pee themselves and whatever it is, but similar experiences and they just didn't feel seen, you know, didn't feel her, didn't feel loved. And then we get into recovery and we're actually able to like vocalize that. Yeah. Has that been part of your journey? Can't like the freedom of just being able to say what it really is? Yeah. Yeah. It's is now I can understand where that behavior came from, like why it became so extreme. It was to impress these guys in my band

and get them to think that I'm cool because they would make fun of me all the time. And like they were not necessarily supportive of me as a singer in their band. So I ended up going with, them and mirroring their addictions and because I wanted to be accepted, you know, and it went to the extreme of that where I completely lost that person that I was beforehand who was like really against drugs and drinking because I had seen the outcome of it around me all the

time. And I just like lost who I was deep down. And I let myself just get weird. way too deep into it. And that was like a big, it was like pulling yourself out of this huge hole. And the more repetitive something is, you know, the more habitual it becomes. And then your body starts to just desire that habit. So no matter how long it was, because it was a pretty short time in my life that I went down that hole, like really deep. But yeah, when was like the band and like this moment that you're so beautifully describing

What moment in your life was at? My brain told me it was okay on my 30th birthday. My 30th birthday, I was like, you know what? I'm an adult. I've owned an apartment in New York. Like, I've been on Broadway. Like, I can experiment. Like, what's the problem?

That was my allowance to like, you know, I'm an adult who has it together. That was my allowance. And that was like the, I can't think of the name of the word I'm thinking I want to say. But that was the rationale. That was the rationale that I was coming up with. And I was like, it's okay. I can try these things and see what it's about. And then it just like, it just like took me on a drugs, alcohol.

Terrible, terrible, terrible journey. I really hurt myself a lot. Really? That's fascinating. So no drugs, really, until the age of 30. And then. Nothing. And what, I mean, I mean, I don't need all the gory details.

Where did you, where did you take that train? Was it daily drug use and? No, no. I did, because I didn't have much of a schedule towards the end there, I would, I would use and drink till blacking out. And then it would be a four-day recovery from, because the blackouts got really bad. And then the hangovers got so bad. They would last about four days.

And then on that fourth night, I would go back to it. So it was like I would not do it while I was recovering from the hangover. But I would never get past the hangover enough. I would just keep repeating that cycle. So it didn't seem crazy from the outside. you know, it seemed like, oh, she parties twice a week maybe. But because of the extreme of what I was doing, I was not like just a little. It was like a lot.

It was to the point of blacking out really bad or, you know, just I barely remember anything from that time period because I was always either blocked out or I was hungover. Yeah, and when you're hung over like that, you're just trying to black things out. I mean, you're just trying to not remember and trying your hardest to push those things down. so that they don't. And how long did that go on for? Oh, that it went on for like two years. In here in New York. Mm-hmm.

Yep. What was your night? Were you like a lowery side gal? No, I lived in Williamsburg. Oh, you were going to Williamsburg. Nice. Amazing. The bar I used to go to all the time was called.

I liked shitty bars. I wouldn't go to clubs. I would go to bars, you know, where they're well whiskey. It was just nasty, like watered down. But I thought that like that was cool. You know, I would do whiskey sandwiches, which was like, I thought it was cool. It was too, it was a whiskey meat in, like two whiskey. I love how you can laugh at yourself.

This is so great. It's just like crazy behavior, right? Anyway, so eventually it would take less and less alcohol to like get me blackout because that's like just the state I would be get in was just this blackout truck. I found myself at like really, really high. parties events and like, you know, Vogue was there and like, their photographer's there. And I am blackout drunk and I don't really remember anything. But then it would like appear later in an article or something that, oh, I was there and

there's a photo and like, you know, like some crazy stuff. Yeah, because we're underselling your career a little bit here. Like, I mean, Tony Award winning actress, Grammy nominated singer. you're currently on your friends and neighbors. The part you play, do you feel like you're perfectly suited for it? I mean, I don't know how the right way to ask, you play this Allie Cooper and it's like she's a,

can you tell the people kind of, can you give us the pull back the shade on that one? Yeah, I mean, she's a musician that's just trying to like survive every day, but she has bipolar disorder. That's pretty bad. She was hospitalized. We know that she had a breakdown about 10 years prior to where we picked the story up in season one.

And so she's still trying to like put the pieces of her life back together. But she really has a hard time of that because of the meds and because of the disorder. And I do think that like that I am, well, it was, yeah, it's the perfect role for me to play. She's a creative. She's a singer, songwriter. She expresses herself through music and song. But also she's just struggling on a daily basis to just be a normal person. And like that to me like just speaks to me on such a deep level because again, it's that

it's that childhood thought of people don't like me and I'm not cool enough to be in the group and like I'm forgotten about all the time and I'm just struggling every day to just feel like I'm a normal human being that people want. And so I bring a lot of that, my personal stuff, into the character of Ali, and I try to keep it very grounded, very realistic. Because the last thing I want to do is portray someone who's bipolar as being a caricature or being, you know, or the stigma of it or the, you know, the stereotype of it.

that one would think because it's not true. You know, anyone who has a mental health issue is struggling just to feel like a normal person on a daily basis. And I feel that. I feel that, like, completely. Yeah, it's so beautiful. And, you know, we sit here and we can smile and we can joke a little bit. But I love the way that you kind of locked in there and took the description of that part

seriously because I know plenty of people that have bipolar bipolar. one by Pulitzer that like live in this world free like as free humans and that's you know that part is probably giving others hope you know like I hope that people see that and say like oh yeah I could actually live yeah I hope so I hope so it's just the thing of like trying to make sure that someone I'm portraying feels understood yeah that's it and it's like they're no they're really no different than anyone else. We're all struggling in our own ways. They're able to put a name to their struggle.

Some people aren't able to put a name to their struggle. Some people don't have medication that can help them with their struggle. So, you know, it's just portraying a human being. It all comes down to it. I love it. I miss the part. How did you get from San Fran to New York? Like for those couple years there where you were kind of drinking in a way that

was destructive with this band? Like, what got you east? Or was the school or just? When I was 17, I auditioned for the national tour of cats. And I thought it. I was very, very, very career driven when I was young. And then- Was that like a means to get out of the house?

Did you see that? That's kind of like your ticket out. Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to get out of the house. Yeah, we see that a lot. Yeah. And then when I was 18 or, and then when I was, I mean, they cast me on like my 18th.

birthday and then after a year of doing the national tour then they moved me to the Broadway company and that's how I got to New York I got to New York with a Broadway show so I was really really lucky and then I was just kind of like going for career stuff like I was so focused on my career I wasn't focused on much else career and then boyfriends you know boys I was always like boy obsessed um and uh And so, like, those are my two focuses, was like career and, and relationships. And then, and then I didn't start kind of choosing rock and roll and things like that for, like, a brand of my career. Right.

Like for a while, I was just kind of in shows, doing whatever. I was in the ensemble. I was just trying to, like, go up the ladder. But I didn't really realize that, at least in my industry, you have to have a package. that you sell as this is what this person is and this is what this person does specifically, and that's why this person is perfect for this role. So I ended up dyeing my hair dark to go with the characters that I wanted to play more. That's, you know, I was still Selena Carvajal, but I was trying to create an image that was much more along the lines of who I felt I was in the

industry, which was a little bit less commercial, much more maybe underground indie, like, you know, rock and roll voice. So it was a little bit more dark, a little more edgy than what I was being seen for before. And then the whole picture didn't come together until after I had been in my band for a while. So the band, I didn't join the band until I was 27. And then over time that the band started to like I started to choose what they were doing and I wanted to be cool and so I thought I had to do that and then the whole name change kind of like solidified exactly who this person was and who this package was and that's how that's how I was from selina and alina yeah so what was the actual year that you did that you said 2013

like right before yeah I changed my name in 2013 right before I got the job that would get me that role that I needed in order, that was perfect for me. That would get me the Tony Award. So it was really like a little bit, you know, it's cool. When you look back at your journey, you can see all the steps that made it happen. And you can see all the missed opportunities that, I mean, weren't missed opportunities. There were the opportunities that you were like dying for, but they weren't happening. And it's like, oh, it didn't happen because then this opportunity happened.

And it just kind of like it creates your. your world that you're actually wanting in a way that you're not really aware of when you're on the journey. But when you look back, you're like, whoa, that's wild how that happened, like how that all worked out. Cool. So cool. No, your story's amazing.

I think what's coming up for it or what I want to kind of double click on is like your, why, why do you talk about being sober openly? Like, why do you do the 10 years sober Instagram post? Is it important to you for other people to see it? Is it an important reminder to you? I mean, everyone has their different reasons. It's important. Or you just don't care.

Like, it's just like the part of you. No, no. It's important for me to post that yearly post because a lot of people reach out to me and they're interested in my story because. Here we are. Yeah, exactly. They want to know what happens. and how I got sober because there's a lot of sober curious people out there.

Yeah. But sometimes they just don't hear their story. And so, you know, some people reach out and that's it. And then I don't hear from them again. But I always, if someone reaches out to me on Instagram, I usually respond. If they're asking about sobriety, I usually respond. Because to me, it's so important to kind of just make it okay and, you know, and be open. and make it okay for people to be curious about their own journey that may be ahead of them.

And so some people have actually, you know, I have, there's a few people who on Instagram had reached out and they're at their year anniversary or something like that. And they're like, and they reach out every once in a while just to give me little updates. And I'm like, that's so amazing. And I'm not their sponsor. I'm not that. But you represent something to them. Yes, I am that little thing that maybe can spark a change in their life that will help them keep going and finding more people who can help them change and finding the resources to change.

And it's like it's just such a cool thing. Even if it's just one person, two people, like that is important to me because that is how we can really affect people in a very very. positive way is just talking about what we've been through very honestly and openly. And hopefully someone hears their story. It's like once you hear your story, you start to be like, oh, I'm not alone. It's like we need to know we're not alone in our struggle at what we're going through. Yeah, I mean, there's a weight and a responsibility, too, for someone like you that has had some success, right?

Like, that has had, you've been on some of the biggest stages, literally. and people see that and they see that you're doing that sober and they become curious, which is fascinating to me. Yeah. Because if it was cancer or heart disease, like, it's not how it works. Yeah, I don't know. It's this magical thing. How did you end up asking for help?

How did you end up deciding to stop drinking? I came to the realization myself. It was my. My bottom was I was in a terrible, like I was in a relationship that was a non-relationship. Basically, it was like this back and forth thing of like it was just, it was a terrible, terrible relationship. And it was, I wasn't even, I didn't even get that drunk that night. It was near Zeeve, right? I didn't even get that drunk that night.

But I ended up throwing up and I ended up just. I love that. I didn't get that drunk, but I ended up throwing. Yeah, it wasn't like the blackout version of me. It was just like I drank, I think beef eater or something. Gin. It's disgusting. And so it ended up like throwing up that night and then and just like crying.

And when I was in this kind of panic attack of crying and thinking I was not good enough, it was like something came over me and I was like, what happened to me? What happened to me? I didn't used to be like this. Like I remembered how I used to be in my 20s and I was like, what has happened to me? Why am I getting these panic attacks? Why am I getting these anxiety attacks? Like so bad.

And so then it was the next day. I was like, you know what? I was like, I had tried diets and all these things to feel better. And I was like, you know what? Maybe I should just try not poisoning my body for a minute. And then that and then that started the whole curiosity thing. So for me, it was like, it was like a self-realization of like, what happened to me? How did I get here to this horrible spot?

But it's not even that horrible, but it was horrible for me because of the, I don't know if you've ever had, if anyone's ever had panic attack or anxiety, you feel this like major weight on your chest and you can't get it off. And it's just like, it's suffocating. So I always say you don't know anxiety until you've actually had anxiety. People will say, oh, I'm anxious. I'm feeling a little anxiety. But then when you really get it and it's that feeling of I might die right now. Yeah. Like this is so crazy that I might actually stop breathing.

Yeah. And I'd never sobbed like that. Like sobbed. Like, God, like wailing. And, you know, and that was like such a wake up call for me. So I finally just, I said, I need to just do something different. And that was the one thing I hadn't changed yet. The drinking.

I had changed boyfriends. I had dropped out of my band. I had changed my diet. I was working out. Like, I was doing all the things. But the one thing I had never changed. You really went for in every area other than like this like thing right in the middle of the table. That is kind of obvious.

Right. But you have to see it for yourself. Of course. And it's been. You've been sober since, is that? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've been sober since. There's only one thing that some people will say is not staying sober,

but I did it as a mental health thing. And I went and I did an ayahuasca ceremony. It was a five-day ceremony in Colorado with the watchful eye of many, many people and through people that I trust very, very much. And it was, my marriage had just, I mean, it was, my marriage had just broken up. It was a really bad, horrible breakup. There was a lot of lying involved and a lot of gaslighting, so I thought I was crazy. And my brain would just not stop reliving the arguments and the lies.

And I just, it was like my brain was just like hurting me. all the time. So I was kind of desperate for something that would be clarity. I was just looking for clarity, anything to help. So I did do that. Some people in AA are like, well, then you broke your sobriety. Some people are not. So I'm very open about this journey because I think it's really, really important. There's some people who find a lot of help in like ketamine. There's some people who find a lot of help in, let's say, microdosing for depression, things like that. It really does depend, I think, on the person and on the process. There's nothing inside of me that really wants to do that again because it was so crazy and

intense. Did it work? It did. It helped me. Yeah, we just had this guy, Shep Rose on. Shepp was on Southern Charm, and he just wrote a whole book about his ayahuasca. Oh, really? Yeah.

He's not a sober guy, but he, he, he's not a sober guy. but he, I think he was trying to get to the root of some things and he did it about two years ago and then the book just came out. And so he had a very, he credits it with like changing his entire existence. Yeah.

I would just be worried that I would start wanting to do it every weekend. Not that, no, not that. There's nothing in that that makes you want to do it again. I mean, it will call you when it's time to do it again. But a lot of times that never happens. It's really like It's so

It's so intense But again, you have to be really careful with this one And this, what I went through, they had all these stipulations about before you did it. It's a very serious thing. When was this a recent? This was in 2024. And the stipulations for it.

It's like, if there are any mental health disorders like bipolar or anything like that that run in your family, you should not do it because it could be a gateway opener. Yeah, I mean, the big book, to its credit, talks a little bit about like, you know, under physician's guidance, like, right? Like, and I would assume that you didn't just like freestyle it and go out to some shaman in the middle of nowhere and say, hey, feed me the toad venom or whatever it is. No, it was like a two-week diet, very specific diet, two-week prep of like diet of everything,

like media diet, you know, you're just trying to, generally trying to quiet everything because you're really trying to find kind of answers that will help with this. And I was in the days for months afterwards. I had never, ever done psychedelics too, ever. Even growing up in the commune, I mean, there was probably a whole element of that, right, where that probably brought you back to that time. I mean, there was probably, you were probably the girl sitting in the middle of the commune and tripping, you know, like being too.

No, I'd never done psychedelics. No, no, I'm saying like in this trip that you did there. Yeah, it's like. Yeah, I'd never touch the stuff. And even when I was using, I'd never touched any psychedelics. What do you say to the people that, like, question your sobriety around it? Are you just so, you have so much conviction around it that you're like, okay, that's cool, you can have your own opinion.

Yeah, I feel like it's, it's such an individual thing. Like, there are some people who maybe should never do that. And that's okay. Like, it's... And I feel like I'm one of those people, by the way. Like, I really do. Because, like, the way that I drank and did drugs, even if you tell me it's this awful thing, you don't want to, like,

if there was any good feeling at all, like, I'm going to maybe want to go back and do it time and time. Or it's going to lead me down this road of believing that I can safely microdose or safely take my own acid on a Saturday night, which then I, get into this area where it's that that to me is not sober you know yes that that is and that's so true for a lot of people and and that's totally okay yeah like I think the the for me because it was such a strict thing and it was under such supervision um it was like more of a medical thing like ketamine treatments that they do then it was just a thing like you know like we're going to go do some molly right i would never do uh a mdma thing for because they're using that for

therapy i believe that i know is a very slippery slope for me anything that has like a dopamine release something like that it's a very slippery slope for me i get kind of i'm like a i'm a dopamine tracer i'm ADHD so like i am constantly like like social media or like my phone addiction. I mean, it is so hard to just turn it off. Some people are like, yeah, I just, I have two phones. I know I literally have two phones. One of them in social media so I can put it, like, leave it. That's so smart. I mean, that is so smart. But like, you know, it's like I know myself. I know, I now know what the, what the possible, like, what's possibly going to set me off and what, what isn't. And this was one of those things that was like, it's so

intense and it's so insane what you're going to go through. And it requires so much prep. So it's like it's not something that I would ever ever go to like a basement and just do in like New York. You're going to go insane. You're going to go insane. I mean, it's it is wild. And the people who can just who just do that, I'm just like that that is insane to me. I think it has a lot to do with intention and the intention of what you're going to do. If you're going to do it recreationally, then yeah, that's going to be an issue. Yeah, I go, this is such a hard one. And there's a lot of energy around this right now. Like that word sober carries so much weight. And obviously, people have such pride around what that means and being sober. For me, I define sobriety as like

abstinent from all drugs and alcohol. I don't have an opinion on this ayahuasca trip that you went and did. And I certainly think that you should have, we're being entitled to defining it however you want to. It sounds like it was helpful. And it sounds like you're like, I'm never going to do it again. I do believe there's a slippery slope around people going to like AA meetings and actively micro dosing or actively you mean California sober whatever it is you know like whatever it is I totally agree with that

like it's like if you want to fucking smoke weed and like say you're sober be my guess like true like I actually mean that you know like just like don't maybe go to the place where like this is the last house on the block for someone like me And if you put it into my head that I can smoke a little weed on Thursday night and I'm still sober, I'm fucked. Yes.

Yes. This is totally correct. We can talk about it for hours. And I saw something yesterday about it. It was like this post and people were like going. And there was hate. You know, like the marijuana community was like hating on the sobriety community who was hating on like the LSD. I'll call them the LSD community.

And then you had like the, you know, the, you know, like the, you know, like the opi. Medicaid Medicaid. Like, like, you know, like everyone's fighting with everyone. I'm like,

guys, like, we've just put these labels and definitions behind these words that we really don't need to. Yes. I do think that

AA is a very, very sacred house. Yeah. And it is so important if you're going to be in that house to be a beacon of sobriety. And sobriety meaning that you're not

occasionally smoking pot, that you're not occasion. Like, It's not an occasional thing like, oh, it's okay. It's like instead of drinking wine, I'm going to smoke pot tonight. You're still numbing out the, you're still numbing out what is going on for the day. And I think that that's like the specific thing is the numb out with, you know, it really is dependent on the person. It really, really is.

My ex-husband, he's a sober person. And he also is very adamant, like, well, you're no longer sober because you did that. And I'm like, but it was so helpful and it keeps me sober. It actually keeps it on the, yeah. And it, it, it, it, it stopped the thinking that was actually like hurting me. My own repetitive thinking, it stopped that addiction of that repetitive thinking from hurting me. But that's what I needed and that's what I gained. And I was really scared to do it because I was also scared of the idea of like, is this

going to open up a doorway for me to like, oh, it's okay, I can have a drink here, I can do this here, I can do that there. It was really to get out of, you know, like, it was a medicine like my therapist was, my psychiatrist was, was, you know, she was like, here, here's some colonopin to get you through the anxiety. And I was like, colonipin. Yeah, I can't take that. Like, I can't do that. That I cannot do. That's the crazy thing to me is like, assuming this Psychiatrist knows you and knows your history and your story for them to then turn around and say like here's some I get it as a last ditch effort. Like if you're really having a thing and a and a medical situation with your anxiety and depression, of course, I get that. Yeah. But the first response being like,

hey, here's some drugs to not feel. Yeah. Like here, let's put you on some antidepressants. Let's throw this. Let's throw that. And I was like, I didn't want to rely on a daily pill. to feel normal, I wanted to do something that would be much more dramatic. And that's what I have heard. And exactly, it, the, the term sober, I think, is per human, but it can be abused if someone is kind of using it as a crutch to, to then, like, to then rationalize the use of something else, right? And like, are we able to be honest about it?

Like, hey, this, I'm fully aware that this is how I did it. Mm-hmm. And I'm going to take you through my experience. And I'm not suggesting that you actually go do it this way. Correct. You know, or whatever it is. So. Yeah, I would never suggest.

That's why I say, like, just because I did this, it doesn't mean that people are going to find solace and that. This was the risk I was willing to take because I was so in a state. So that was kind of during the divorce and this whole thing was kind of going. My dad was dying. And like, of worse and the gaslighting and the being lied to and being made to feel crazy. And like that whole thing. I mean, it was just this tailspin of my brain.

Did you eventually get the truth? Like, did you eventually get to the truth of whatever it was? Yeah. But, you know, again, like. You got the truth for yourself. I got it. I get enough. Yeah.

I got enough. And I also had found the truth for myself. It never really came out of the horse's mouth. That's, yeah, I mean, look, it's not here to, you know. But like, it wasn't about that, actually. It was really about, I had lost, again, I had lost who I was. It was kind of that same thing when I was using, you know, I was doing a lot of cocaine, and I was using a lot of, like, MDMA, and I was using it really recklessly and drinking

a lot of whiskey. Like, that's what I would drink. So then I came to a point where I was like, I don't even recognize myself anymore. Why am I having a panic attack? Why am I having anxiety? What is going on? And that was the thing that I did to kind of get right it again. And then with the whole divorce, the whole way it happened was not healthy at all.

And I was desperate for a solution that wouldn't ruin my sobriety, but that would actually help in a way. And that's what I had heard and I was willing to. And also, like, it was interesting when something wants to happen. It kind of everything will fall into place and it kind of the cards all laid out and so I went and I did that and And man, it was a it was a long long recovery from just those three nights. It was really intense. It was insane, but worth it. I mean you feel today you feel free all what it yeah what it did was it cleared out. It was almost you know if you just like if you just like pickax like something in the. ground like over and over again, the rut gets deeper and deeper and then it gets harder and harder

to fill. So that was like my brain. My brain was just like arguing with my ex-husband and picturing him in, you know, the situation. Yeah, and he's picturing that he's going to come back and say like, you know, you're right. Well, just argue. Like just, yeah, but that's like the dream, right? Like this vindicate, you know, like what, yeah. And and and it just wouldn't stop. It was the first thing I would think of when I would wake up in the morning and the last thing that I would be thinking of when I was going to bed. It just would not let up. So I was very desperate.

And so what it did was it basically like paved the road for me to start another journey with my brain. And what was interesting, I was like, oh, I can see the blue sky again. I forgot. I forgot the trees. I forgot this amazing stuff. And when I went home to see my dad and be in the house that I grew up in, I understood my father a lot more.

and I understood the things in the house a lot more from having done that. So it was kind of a rite of passage for me to grow up. But I do not recommend that everyone do this. This is not something that. No, you're loud and clear. I mean, it's very nuanced. It's very hard. We have a lot of these conversations in this room around a lot of this stuff.

And people all have different opinions. You know, when Bill Wilson wrote the big book, like, I don't think he could have, like, looked into the future into 2026 and put all these rules or stipulations or things in place around like what is and is not sober and what is and is not A.A. And so a lot of it is left up for, you know, discussion. And that's fine. Like for me, that's fine. You know, as long as we still have people, you know, in each community, in all communities, kind of going about it in a way that's not filled with hate. Yeah. It's like when that hate comes into play, like we're all fucked. Yeah. You know, so I'm saying like, I'm not.

I'm right, you're wrong. Yeah. You're sober, you're not sober, like, whatever it is. It's so interesting because, like, we've lost nuance. I think social media and, like, the internet and stuff like that, like the algorithm and all that kind of stuff that's going on right now, I think it's really ruined our ability to be nuanced. Yeah.

And everything has to be so black and white. And I'm like, we're all different people. We've all been through different things that are similar, but we're different people. down to it. And like, what works for me will not work for other people. What works for you may not work for some other people. But, like, it's really important to understand that, again, we're all human beings.

We're all struggling and we're all trying to get through the days. As long as we're doing things to actively make ourselves better people and to actively, like, heal our own bodies, that's what's important, you know? and that I think that when we poison our bodies with certain things, it's like, you know, alcohol is really like, I don't think there's anything good about it. I think alcohol is the worst drug. Yeah, they've retracted that whole like, oh, you can have a glass of wine at night. No, you can't. You can't.

You cannot drink when you're pregnant. I mean, it is absolute 100% poison. We're just, we are discovering this, you know. There were all of these things that were like, it's okay. I feel like the same thing is going to be said for cannabis. eventually, like, it can be, it can be something that is medical and good under certain circumstances, but to smoke it like every day or as like a, you know, I know so many people who are like wake and bake and- Well, there needs to be an age. The cannabis thing that needs to be an age because

the thing I worry about is just the kids who are, their brains are underdeveloped and they get a hold of this weed and then they fry out and at 19 years old or 18 years old, they're, nobody's home. Yeah. Nobody's home. Exactly. There's ways to do something. We use it as like, I mean, if you think about like vodka, vodka is like they use vodka to like. Clean cuts. Yes.

You know, it's an antiseptic. Yeah. Like, it's not meant to be drank every night. Like, you know, the same thing I think with plants, you know, like with plant things and like psilocybin and all that kind of stuff, like everything. it can be actually useful as something that is like medical, but to use it every day or to rely on it as a life choice is probably not a good, it's probably not a good thing.

Like we need to be clearheaded on a daily basis in order to face our childhood trauma, which nobody wants to face. Well, we're getting there. We're starting to look at our childhood trauma. I'm happy you have that experience. and I'm rooting for you. Like, it sounds like today you're in a good place and like you've, you're getting there.

Much better place, but I will say like, I still struggle. I still struggle. The childhood trauma thing, it like gets me every time. It doesn't get very easy. It gets sometimes maybe a little worse because as they try to analyze it and you try to like maybe make amends with what had happened to you

or say that it's okay and grow up, it's like it can come back so hard. So I can sit here and tell my story and smile because I want you to know what's happening and I want to be open, genuine, you know, but that doesn't mean that there's not all these struggles going on, right? There's a lot of pain that is involved with stuff like that. Yeah, I'm sure you saw things you weren't supposed to see and things happened to you that weren't supposed to happen to you. And that's, you know, it makes sense why you took the route you took, which is like,

I'm going to get really good at dancing and singing and performing so that I can get the hell out of here. And quite frankly, probably like in some party, you never wants to think about it again, never wanted to think about it again. Like, I'm just going to go and leave this all behind. Yeah. There's memories that come up that I forgot about. And I'm like, did your dad passing have any, like, was that a good thing for you?

Was that a bad? Not a good thing. You know what I mean? Like, but was there some closure and all that or had you guys developed any relationship or was it? Oh, I mean, I had an amazing relationship with my dad. You did. Okay, cool. There was a lot of unsaid things that had happened around the house that my dad, me growing up and some things that I didn't know about my father, that he was trying to clarify a little bit, you know, at the end there, but it was really hard for him to do that. he was he was old he was 94 and i was there when he passed um the couple days uh when he passed

and it was it was it was very very uh difficult nothing prepares you for that watching someone go like nothing there's nothing and it it does haunt me to this day but like and i miss my dad I've been there? Like, would you have not been there if you could go back or is it something that? No, I'm glad I got to be there. Yeah. I am. Yeah.

I played guitar for my dad and sang for my dad one last time. And he registered it. You know what I mean? But also it was really interesting was, you know, every once in a while my dad, and he's kind of comatose. And every once in a while, he would be like, hi. Like, and I was like, who was that? Who came to see you?

there's got to be more out there. You know what I mean? So it was like a hopeful thing, but it was also really difficult because I was saying goodbye to my dad. You know, who's my hero, like everything for me. It's been a tough couple years. I mean, that's tough losing your dad and a divorce. No, it was really tough, but I did it. I made it through.

I didn't go back to the bad stuff. And what do you, I mean, how do we find you today? How do we, I'm sure people are going to be pumped to have connections. with you, like the social media, you're on TV. I don't know. We'll see. I mean, am I going to get canceled? No, no, no.

No, this is a safe place. And I say that. People want to come here to just pick fights. Don't bother. Yeah. It's just not what we're doing. You're always scary. It's like, when you're really truthful about stuff.

Well, and there's podcasts and there's platforms out there. They want to pick the fight because they know it does the engagement thing. And that's like, but like, I think the nuance thing, that thread that we got on was really interesting to me. And I think that your journey and your story is very valuable to women. I think it's very valuable to family members, hearing some of your experience with Al-Anon. I mean, this was a really powerful conversation and one that I'm grateful that you showed up for it in the way you did. Yeah, of course.

Happy to, like, just be open and not be like some perfect movie star. Like, no, I am messy. I am. I can be a disaster sometimes. We all can. And that's okay. I'm just normal. I am normal.

I slept until like 8.45 today. It's all good. Oh, that's amazing. And like it was like snooze fest. And like who cares? No, sleep. Sleep is so important. Did you read the book while we sleep?

No, but I know it's important. I know it. Like one of my friends, this whole thing, his whole world is around. Like he sleeps 10 hours a night. He swears. That's like. Amazing. Yeah.

I wish I could. I'm in perimenopause right now, which is another like hot topic. First of all, If you're a woman in perimenopause, you cannot take alcohol anymore. I mean, your body just does not process it the same way. But what's a really interesting thing about perimenopause is my anger. My anger levels are really like the tolerance I have for people treating me poorly or being, you know, unwilling to help or be on like the, like, my anger levels are really just like, I've had it. I'm done.

I'm not going to take your. your like abuse, I'm not going to, like, I'm not going to deal with people who are going to lie to my face or just like keep truth from me. Like, I can't deal with that anymore because paramedopause is a whole other level of just like, your whole body is just like deteriorating. Right. You're just trying to get through the day. I'm so glad that I am sober, you know, from, from drug, I'll be specific. I am sober from alcohol and from hard drugs, like cocaine. and MDMA, you know.

I am so glad I'm sober from that because I don't know how I would be dealing with perimenopause if I wasn't because it is just incredibly difficult. Yeah. Scary. What's like, how do we support you? Your show is going well.

The show is on. You're doing well. What's the Instagram handle, Jay? Do we have that? My Instagram is Lena Rocker Hall. If we want some comedy. Yeah. That's good.

It's good comedy. And she's in the Labia head. Labia Head, which is a radio head cover band, all female radio head. Hell yeah. We're really good. I'm going to come see you. Yes, please. Yeah.

And we'll have you back because I feel like this conversation was too brief. Like we have more to cover. So I appreciate you coming on. And I just appreciate your honesty. And like I knew it was going to be a good conversation where you're like, I'm just excited to talk about this. So thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Thanks, Lena.