The Zac Clark Show - What Getting Sober ACTUALLY Looks Like

Episode Date: January 7, 2026

On this episode of The Zac Clark Show, Grace Adams joins Zac and Jay for an honest and funny conversation about what early sobriety actually looks like. They start with a hot topic that brings all sorts of opinions: dating in sobriety. Is “don’t date for a year” real wisdom… or an arbitrary rule people cling to? Zac and Jay break down why recovery can’t be one-size-fits-all – and how the wrong guidance can push people into obsession, fear, or dependency on personalities rather than recovery-building principles. Then Grace opens up about her story: a disciplined performing arts kid who hit college freedom like a hurricane, the moment the police found her blacked out in her dorm, and the brutal truth that shame didn’t make her stop drinking. She shares what it looked like to “control” drinking — switching alcohols, counting glasses, and even going to a restaurant with a journal to write about her relationship with alcohol… while getting drunk.The conversation gets real about the hidden danger for young women: blackout culture, risky situations, sexual trauma, and the isolating belief that you should be able to fix it alone. Zac, Jay, and Grace land on the thing that keeps showing up: peer-to-peer recovery — one person sharing their story with another so shame breaks, hope shows up, and life becomes possible again.If you’re newly sober, thinking about getting sober, or love someone who is – this is a great conversation for you.If you’re struggling, you don’t have to do it alone.Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

Welcome back here to the Zach Clark show. I am your host, Zach Clark. We're trying to get a little better with the structure of the episodes here and bring a little bit more professionalism to the work that we're doing, which is an interesting place to start because I feel like, There's a fine line that we, that we tread that I tread in recovery, which is I, I am a business owner and, you know, I want to be viewed by my peers as, you know, someone who is professional and takes this very seriously. And I also know that value of being raw and authentic about my story for the person that ultimately we're trying to reach with this show, which. is the person who has no hope, is getting sober, and doesn't really believe that they can have any life worth living and the family member who's looking for some level of support. So what we're going to do today is one, we're going to show a little gratitude.

Jay's here. We also have Grace Adams here. So Grace, just to set the table, has been, you know, involved in the pod since day one. She's really seen it for the past year and a half. and she also has a very powerful story. She's had some spot kind of guest appearances, so we want to get into her story a little bit with her, show her some gratitude,

show her some love. She's had a lot of impact with kind of young women. And what up, Grace? Hey, how's it going? Happy to be back. She said back. Back. Yeah, I think we need some like young female energy with you too.

No, that's great. I agree. I mean, look, I agree. I mean, like the first thing that comes to mind is dating, you know, like this. Look, I'm around newcomers a lot. I'm around people in early sobriety a lot based on the work I do with release recovery. I've really leaned in there a little bit more recently running some groups. And 14 years later, there are some things that have changed in the recovery process since I've gotten sober.

And there are some things that are still front and center. And this whole idea of how to date, when to date, can you date is quite nauseating for me. And I think it's a place where maybe we can start grace because dating in sobriety, I've done it, is made to be this hugely dramatic thing. And it's just not. I don't know where that came from. Like don't date in the first year. don't do this, don't do that.

I don't know, if someone's six months sober and they're working a really good program or they're having a good experience, why can't they go on a date? I don't think, I think they can. Yeah, definitely. Did you? No.

No, I was told to not make any big changes in the first year of my sobriety. But where does that even come from? I don't know, but that's what I was told. I know, but that's like, this is the thing that I sometimes struggle with in the whole sobriety.

Obviously in rehab, you would agree in rehab that you should probably not be, you know, you should not date or engage

in romantic affairs. Of course. Okay. That's just fundamental. Okay. That's just logical thinking, though. That doesn't require a therapist

to tell me that. Like, I've just showed up in a place where I'm, rehab is short for rehabilitation. I'm here to rehabilitate my entire existence I don't think that one I should be dating and two

that I mean the idea that had to be smashed for me in early sobriety is that I just wasn't a catch there's nothing attractive about me yeah why well I was a large man and I and I was doing a lot of drugs and I was very and then you started running up the hill I was actually at Karen last night

I go out to Karen once. Karen is where I went to rehab, and I go there once a month to share my story, and I shared that story. It's powerful. It's a good one. It's a good one. I mean, look.

I think it comes from, you know, I do think that in AA, you know, there are groups. Jay left AA, by the way. There are groups in it, you know, I have a complicated relationship to AA. But I do, and I stand on this,

I do, and I will always say this, that AA, you know, changed my life, has gave me, helped me receive a new life. I met my wife in AA. That was not the plan. I wasn't looking for that. So I'm always indebted AA. But if I could be honest, so Jay and his wife were like the, the like king and queen of New York City AA for many, many years.

They would run around. They had these gaggles of people, me included, one of them, that would follow them all around and go listen to them speak. And if we're being honest. honest, I, when I tell my story, I, I classify Jay as a starving, I said, there's an idea when you go out to a meeting and you're going to ask someone to be your sponsor that they have what you want. And I always say, you know, Jay was a starving actor here in New York City, but he had a spiritual solution that was so clear. He had a twinkle in his eye. And that's why

I ultimately asked him to sponsor me. And, you know, why, why, why did you leave Yeah, yeah. Oh, we were going to, we were, we were, we were on the dating arc and now we're, we'll ask about your wife. We'll get back. We can, we can go back to that. We can do both things. How did you be how did you start dating your wife in a and why did you leave it? Well, okay. Um, we got them. Let's go. The thing is is that I, to your point, I can weave both in, like to the thing about dating. Like I, first of all, was in a very bad place when I got sober as, as, as we are to be, uh, in most cases. And I was not even looking for anything.

I could not imagine, like, having a relationship. I had just gotten out of a terrible relationship that I should not have been in. And, and then I started doing, you know, really working the program of recovery, the 12 steps. And, like, I started working, really started working. And I was, like, on fire, you know, like, and I was the guy running around telling everyone, like, you know, you got to find God. You got to get sober. You got to do these steps. blah, because it worked, you know. And a couple years into that process, someone, a friend of my

wives asked me out for coffee and I respectfully declined. And then I had, and obviously, I'm trying, you know, I don't want to use, there are certain names because then I had a sponsee, a guy that I was helping in this process who really liked my wife. And she was not interested. And I had known her for many for a couple years in A.A. She was very serious about it. She was smart. She was funny. She was pretty.

She was doing like I was aware of her. And I don't know, man. After her friend asked me to, uh, to go out in coffee and I started becoming more aware of that little group. And one day I just like saw her in front of a meeting and I like noticed her like red shoes and I looked at her and I said, Red's a dangerous color. I is, but red on a female is a dangerous.

dangerous color red is a dangerous color i'm glad i'm not wearing red but i just i just noticed your shoes and i said i like your shoes isn't that a novel that wasn't that life isn't that life experience right there grace like i like your you're allowed to compliment someone that's awesome and then there was a birthday party for a friend and we ended up at the table sitting next to each other and then i walked her home after that and then french kiss no french kiss Hugs. Actually, one of the first times we went on a date and, like, this is terrible and tells you everything. Like, I, like, she, like, met me out of Dunkin' Donuts out near, in Times Square near an audition that I was going to.

And, like, if you know my wife, like, she ain't in to, like, she wasn't interested in the acting thing. It wasn't, like, it wasn't mysterious. It wasn't interesting. It wasn't attractive. It was just like, whatever, you know. Yeah, but that's such a valuable lesson because I feel like. And I like that. But in New York City, there is so much energy around.

Where to meet, where to take the person, how to kind of woo them. Can you get the reservation? It just doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. You met at a dunk. Like one of your first dates was at a Dunkin' Donuts and your wife is a catch. I mean, and, you know, I was in my, it was like 14, 15 years ago at this point, man. It's crazy.

And literally I like knew like within two weeks. Like my parents were coming to town and I like wanted my parents. to meet her and I never I never was like that I never like I tried to keep that part of my life separate and I and I like I think I told her I loved her like three weeks in and then you know and then it took me like you know 10 years to get to the next step but that's uh that's proposal yeah I was at your wedding yeah you were you were thank you so what I'm saying about the dating thing is though is that I was not looking for it and I don't really get like people I hear all the time I'm like, when you're not looking for it, that's when you're going to find it.

And like, maybe that's true. Maybe that's true. But there's probably many instances where that's not true, right? Where you are like, like, I know a friend of mine who was looking to find a partner for many, many years. And it was only when she like really like, I'm going to start really dating. I'm going to like really attack this. She met her partner. But I wasn't looking for it.

And then it happened. And so like I just feel like with dating, I feel like in AA, there are a lot of, there are a lot of things that can be harmful and sort of restrict someone into thinking like that they can't do something and I just of course it's got to be case by case but that's where I think it does I think the problem with a lot of things in recovery is that we overanalyze them we overanalyze them and dating is one of those things you know the whole people places and things these are things for me that honestly the treatment community or behavioral health care kind of landed on somewhere along the line and I don't actually

think that they I don't think there's actually like research and data that suggests you have a better chance to stay sober if you don't date in your first year now an individual who has a history of you know being in bad relationships or a bad dating history or attachment issues of course yeah but it is and I continue to kind of bang on this drum when you look at recovery, when you look at sobriety, when you look at the things that we all do together, it's got to be case by case. It's got to be case. It's case by case. To your point, like, you're, to my point about you, you're sitting here with 15, 20, 19 years sober, how long? 18 years. Yeah. And like, the way that you got sober is not the way that you are staying

sober. Right. That's fact. Did you date anyone in early sobriety? Yeah, I, I dated in sobriety. I mean, look, I didn't have sex for the first three years of my sobriety. And that wasn't because my sponsor or my therapist told me not to. It was because I felt inadequate. But there are a lot of people in AA who are like, who will find the person who's like, this is exactly the way you need to do it. You're not going to date. Like the year thing, it's so fucking stupid. It's so arbitrary. You were someone that when you got sober, you were in such a desperate place that you were willing to do anything. Right. And so like, I think if that is driving your If that's driving your, you know, the way you're living your life, then I think all these things are

okay to explore, you know, especially if you're like being honest and, and communicating to people around you. My experience is so many people on day 366, now that they are allowed to date, they go in the opposite direction. And that becomes the main thing about their recovery. It's almost like you work this whole time to get to one year so that whoever's shepherding your recovery along, whatever guru is telling you like whatever to do says, oh, you can't. can go date now. And it's not based on anything other than the calendar. And that for me doesn't work. No. And I think that one of the challenges with AA, maybe in the, well, I think overall is that like personality, you know, the whole thing is supposed to be about principles

above personalities. And I think the problem is sometimes when you have people, especially who are younger and who are broken and then maybe have their own sort of historical issues, they come in and they find someone who sort of like tells them, I can show you how to be better. I can show you the way out. Like you begin to put a little too much emphasis and stock into like a single person. All right. Enough out of you. Let's go to Jay. Let's go to Grace. But I'm serious. But let's go to grace here. And I want to I want to acknowledge that. You know, you and I get to talk a lot. And Grace has a very powerful story of recovery. You know, a very powerful story. And she's someone that's ingrained in our community here at release recovery. She's an alumni of the program.

And, you know, Grace is one of these people that kind of jumped in with two feet. So just real quick, Grace, you grew up in Baltimore adjacent, like not actually in the city or in Baltimore. This is a joke. Right outside the city line. Yeah. So my address does say Baltimore, Maryland. And you had a. Congratulations.

Beautiful family, right? Yeah. Sense of pride. Yes. Gorgeous. That's so fun. And we've gotten to know the Adams crew. They're big, big supporters of us.

they show up to a lot. And that's really, it makes me smile because it's a lot of what we like look for when the family recovers. And I know there's some, you know, substance abuse in your family, but we'll kind of keep it to you here. So when you're 27?

28. 28. When do you know you're an alcoholic? At what point does Grace Adams say, oh shit? Probably 22, 23. Like once I left grad school, like once I was out of the schooling system, I thought, you know, I can like get it together and I started working like a corporate job. And that's when I kind of realized that like everyone else that I was in school with kind of slowed down and chilled out. And I continued to do the exact same behaviors.

But were you always going hard? Were you always partying? I mean, I know you were a dancer, right? Yeah. Like what was your life like in high school? In high school? Yeah. I didn't, I mean, I drank a little bit.

It wasn't, it wasn't crazy. I was on a very regimented schedule. Like, I went to a performing arts high school. So we danced for three quarters of the day and had academics the other quarter. And then we had rehearsals at night. So like, I probably drink once a month. This is when high school? Starting like sophomore year.

I didn't drink until sophomore year. We see that a lot, right? We see that a lot with a lot of our, the people we work with. They have this really rigid. kind of high school structure and then they get to college and they have some freedom and meet grace a alcoholic exactly like i didn't have i didn't have to come home to my parents like i didn't have anyone watching me like when i got to college it was like the doors were blown off and i could drink and do whatever i wanted was that a choice where you're like i'm going

to get so fucked up in college is that what you were you thinking of that i never had that thought consciously. But once I experienced, you know, the frat parties and, you know, what I could access, I was like, why wouldn't I do this? So you're at SMU? Yes. In Dallas. How many students? Small, right? I honestly have no idea. Yeah, that's honest. That's actually very honest. Grace is honest. Yeah, appreciate that. And so you get to college, you get some freedoms and what, what did that? I think for like what I'm interested in, Grace, in hearing from your story is like the life of a young woman in college who has found this freedom for the first time and is trying to find the way in the world and how alcohol played into that. Yeah. I mean, it was my whole identity. Like I was out and about every night. And I had a great group of friends who I'm still like best friends to this day with. But we were all. partaking in it and it felt very normal and very cool and you know you're always trying to impress

you know the cool kids around you and it was ingrained into almost every not almost every activity that we did in in college um and i look back now and i i had this moment where i was standing in line for this was last year um trying to get into s andl to see it and i went by myself and did the whole stand-in-line Friday night, Saturday night. And I actually got in. It was amazing. But there are these two girls standing in front of me who were, like, actively at NYU. And they were telling me about all of these things that they get to do, you know,

because of their university, gives them this and that, and they're taking advantage of all of these opportunities. And I know for a fact I had all of those, but I didn't give one shit about it. And I didn't even care to know that we had these resources or had, you know, these cool clubs or like they were just so excited to be you know students and to be learning and I was I had so much fomo um but I want to I want to cue in on something you said because it relates to what you're talking about now and the college experience you said something along the lines of do anything to impress the cool kids who in your mind like define what cool kid was at that

time. So there was sororities and fraternities and they were kind of ranked. So I was probably in like the third or fourth top sorority, um, I would say based on academics or, or, no, based on like coolness. Based on academics. Are these real rankings? Are they published rankings or these are just like, it's like anecdotal, right? It's like, it's like, it's like, it's part of like the myth, mythos of the school, right? Like, you're going to be DG or you're going to be a loser. No, not DG. DG in Miami.

That's where I went. And it depends on, you know, like where you are in the country. So no, I wouldn't say they're published anywhere, but they're definitely known throughout the school. And so you had this desire to be liked by a certain group of humans, women. Yeah, women are men. Both. Okay. But like for someone, stop.

I just want to get to this thread. Okay, okay. I get it. Because I think this is valuable for the young adult or the college person to hear whether or not they listen to this. Maybe their parents do. But you said something very interesting, which is the college experience. We pay all this money, 40, 50, 60, $70,000 a year.

And oftentimes the most important thing is to be liked by my peers or get into the fraternity or the sorority that I want, when there actually is, to your point, like an unbelievable infrastructure to experience amazing things. I know for me, there was nothing that was going to get me to show up to any of that shit

if there wasn't booze there. And I think that's part of what is hard to get college students motivated. What motivates them is... Alcohol and drugs. Yeah. And like having new experiences. Well, the social life, really.

but let me ask you because this relates to that like you're you're you're very disciplined high school kid you're a dancer you're at a school for dancing performing arts and then that sort of stops and in your mind do you remember why because you easily could have been like all right I'm not dancing I have more time I'm going to throw myself into school I'm going to throw myself in these extracurriculars and instead you you said like oh wow I found this thing that's like really fun and easy and I can do this you know partying why do you think you went that way versus the other other. Well, I actually, I danced in college. So I still had that regimented schedule. It was just I wasn't coming home to my parents and I wasn't, you know, I had more freedom. But like I was still

dancing six, seven hours, eight hours a day. So did you need like a release where you like this is, I need to like get out of myself? Yeah, we get out of rehearsal at like 10, 11 p.m. And I would race to my room, chug as much as I could and go out to the bars until the morning and then we'd do it all over again. It was it was just my daily routine. Yeah, it felt good because I was so scheduled during the day. Yeah, that age, it doesn't. It's not hard to kind of come back from it. No, no, it's, it's.

And so you're at SMU, you're making friends. You're continuing on with your dance stuff. Uh, and you're a young woman. And so who's the first person in your life that says, Grace, I need you to kind of take a look at your drinking? When's the first time that you have this realization that. maybe alcohol isn't serving you. Because I want to know the time between like that moment and then when you actually go to rehab. I was a sophomore in college.

It was the police found me in my dorm. It was big little night. I was the big and I was basically you're supposed to get your little like fucked up. And I took it upon myself to get myself fucked up and my little had to take care of me. and I came home to my dorm. I thought I'm just going to go to bed. I mean, I was pretty much blacked out. There was throw up all over me.

But I was like safe enough. And the cops were just like already in the lobby. And they, I don't really remember what happened. But I got like a minor in consumption, which is like a misdemeanor. And the only thing I kept, I remember. that I kept screaming at the cops was like, just don't tell my parents. Like I was just so terrified of my parents finding out

that I had, I wasn't drinking like a normal child, a normal kid. And then obviously my parents found out and that was the first time that I was like punished for, you know, my behavior. And that's when I started to like. Do you remember waking up the next morning after that? Yeah.

And what was that feeling? I still thought I could get away with it. I was still under the delusion that, like, I will figure out how to pay for this lawyer. I will figure out how to not, no one will ever find out about this. I mean, I was probably still drunk. And I just remember, I was smell disgusting. I was still in throw up. And you have roommates at the time?

Yeah. And they're just like, yo, Grace had a bad night. Yeah. It was pretty, I mean, the cops made it a little bit more extreme, but it was pretty typical. But the thought never crosses your mind in that moment that maybe alcohol is not, is like, not good for you no so crazy no when was the next time you drank after that um i did like i was so embarrassed um because i thought everyone knew you know that self-centered alcoholism like i was like walking around campus like terrified people would be like oh my god that's throw up girl

that's the girl yeah i was wearing a tutu because it was like a costume party um so like the tutu was couple oh my god it was so gross it was caked and throw up but i was so terrified that like i didn't go out for probably now that i think about it's not that long it's probably like three to five days um and then i was right back at it yeah um but i was pretty ashamed for a little bit um i just i focus in on that story because there's so many people that i think misunderstand what alcoholism really is what substance abuse really is and i see this all the time parents will get that phone call and they they assume that the shame and the guilt and the embarrassment of that moment is going to you know strike you sober and for people like us it doesn't

it just doesn't clock that way we don't we don't clock it we don't we don't say oh maybe there's an issue here in fact we kind of do everything we can to work towards the next drank. Yeah, I mean, I got, my parents put me on house arrest, which means I couldn't go to like on spring vacation with all my friends in the Bahamas. And I was pissed, but I was still drinking at home. So it was fine.

You drink in front of your parents? It was hidden, for sure. I mean, the way I drink at home was I would drink normally in front of my parents, like have a glass of wine at dinner like they did, and then they would go to sleep. I would continue to drink until I was either passed out or oblivion. And so the cops come in, the parents find out, you're a sophomore in college, you end up being at SMU for five years, right?

You end up there for five years? Yep. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, and you got a, you got a, you got a master's in fine arts? No, in advertising. What was your undergrad? Dance performance. Oh, dance performance and advertising. Okay.

Uh, so, so. you kept your shit together to a certain degree which was probably confusing to the people that loved you right yeah I got great grades my professors loved me like confusing to you too probably yeah I mean I was I was pretty good figuring out how to make it work

are you telling yourself like yeah one day I'll just you know I'll drink like normally or you're not even thinking that not even thinking that yet I don't think grace has the governor like i like what i know about you i don't think you spent a lot of time in like reflective state thinking like this drinking thing is really like the throw up on the tutu is really gonna set me straight here not until i like moved to new york and then i started like trying to control my drinking and that then i started having those thoughts but can you can you break

that down though because trying to control your drinking we talk about that a lot. It's like the great obsession of the alcoholic or the drug addict is to, you know, I wish I could just do heroin on Friday and Saturday night. It's just not possible. And so can you just, can you explain what that means to you controlling your drinking? Yeah, it started off where I could drink wine like it was water or like lemonade. My mom used to say like I would chug it. And so my first, you know, instant was, okay, I'll only drink hard liquor because I can't chug that. Um, And which that didn't work. And so then I went only to wine again.

And so I started switching the alcohols. And then I was like, okay, we'll just do it by numbers. I'll have one glass of wine tonight. And then that turned into like, okay, half a bottle. And then once I had half the bottle down, like in my apartment, I'd be like, okay, well, it's weird to not finish the bottle. Like, I'm not going to just leave it there for the next day. And I remember I went out to dinner one night,

by myself and like brought a journal because this is the best this is this is early I mean go please finish the story and I was like okay well I'm going out so I'm not going to get blacked out I'm by myself like it's fine I'll have a glass and wine I'll eat a chicken pot pie and I'll go home and what are you writing I'm writing about my relationship with alcohol you were I was because I was trying to figure it out by myself and I was like okay I'll just write down how I'm feeling. Why does it have so much control over me? Like at that point, I knew that it, like, there was a problem. And I was trying to figure it out while drinking, of course. So I started with a one glass. And then I was like, in my journal, I'm like, okay, so I just

finished one. Now, I'm not going to order another. All of a sudden, there's like, I've had like three or four glasses. And I really need to find this journal entry because it is truly insanity sitting there trying to figure out by myself why like I thought I could just figure it out but by the end of the entry and going home drunk I knew I was like there's I don't know how to fix it I mean I don't know that there's a better story that describes alcoholism I'm going to go to a restaurant with a journal to write in my journal about the ways that I know or I'm going to figure out how to stop drinking as much as I'm drinking only to leave that journal session drunk and with like a journal entry that makes no sense you said something else

there too that that i think jay probably you relate to this it's this whole idea that i'm convinced i can i can do this and do it alone i don't and the message i have for people that are trying to get sober you might be able to hold on for a minute or two to your sobriety but it is a long shot to get sober alone. It's just not something that speaks to what we are doing here. No. I tried to do it once by myself, which I don't usually talk about this. But it was probably six months before I actually got sober and called my mom.

But I had realized I went to a wedding and really, really messed things up. and um what do you mean i went to the wedding trying not to drink the first you know it was like the bridal luncheon the first day immediately was pounding champagne um and just just a hot mess at the all over the dance floor like the photos are not savory um and i got home from that trip and i was like okay I need to stop drinking actually this time and I did it for like probably 14 days like literally white knuckling and after those 14 years I was like oh my god I feel amazing but there was no legs underneath it like it was me just like going to work going home and like going to sleep like that was I was just trying to get through the day without drinking and all I could think about was

drinking the whole time and then I started drinking again And that's when, like, the summer of 2023, 2022, that was like, it was very dark. And that's how I got to August 3rd of, like, actually calling my mom and being like, I can't stop drinking. Like, I didn't even tell her that I had tried to stop because I don't, the thing is, I didn't tell anyone that I stopped drinking because I knew I wasn't actually going to stop drinking. And I didn't, I was, like, doing a little experiment. Like, real talk, though. I mean, the thing is coming up for me. it's it's young girl New York City

big city can be dangerous city did that ever occur to you like this idea that you're going to go out and be taking advantage of or someone's going to find you passed out somewhere you're going to fall asleep in the cab I don't know man it's just that's what's coming up for me it's just really scary you know it's really scary like it's Friday we're doing this episode on a Friday there are going to be thousands of young women in this city locked out tonight like just by but just numbers yeah can you speak to that yeah i put myself in some very dangerous situations just by like being by myself

being drunk and being in new york city um i like gotten a car with a drug dealer and like drove around the block like one night at like midnight because i wanted to do blow um like that man easily could have just driven off with me. And I was like barely coherent. But that's why I needed the cocaine. But yeah, I, not so much in New York City, but like in college, that also was a huge thing. Like I was taking advantage of many times. And it's very, very common.

And people don't want to talk about it because they think it's their fault because they were too drunk. And I still deal with that too. Do you have a stance on that? Yes, I think case by case? Yeah. I can let you out of this one.

We don't need to go there. Yeah. But yeah, there are definitely some times that I know that I was raped, but there are also some times where I know I had control and I just didn't care. Like it was just whatever. I was like, I'm, I'm kind of okay with this. It was just complicit. Solace.

Yeah. Yeah. There was no life behind my eyes. Like, I look back at pictures and it's just like there's no one, no one home. Yeah. Have you been able to connect with young women over that? Like as young women get sober and you've gotten sober, I get, and I know a bit about like there's sexual trauma. You know, there's things that are.

experience when we were out there drinking and drugging, is that something that you're able to connect with your peers around when you do get sober? Is that something you've been able to, yeah, find community and kind of that? Definitely, especially at women's meetings. Like, that's where women feel safe to talk about, I mean, obviously the relationships and like the drama that goes on with that, but also like the trauma that has happened to them, drinking and sober too. Has that changed?

You think in the time since you've gotten sober in terms of being more open? and, you know, being able to push through the shame of talking about something like that? A little bit. I still feel a lot of shame. But I have no problem talking about it now. But like young women, like if you met a girl that was trying to get sober, she's 21 now, like, and, you know, do you think that the attitude around that has changed in a positive way? I don't think, like, significantly no.

I mean, I think it's been normalized a bit more, like, talking. about it on social media and like just like the way people are more open but i would say for the average girl no i don't think it's changed but this is the threat i want to kind of keep with here which is which is really important it's like so important i think for people to hear which is i love therapists they are awesome i've done tons of therapy i think everyone in this room can agree to that the shared experience that makes you uniquely qualified to help the 21-year-old girl who you're sitting across from and being able to share that, hey, I don't know your story, but this is my story.

And I'm going to tell it to you. That is one of the first things we do in recovery is we sit down with a newcomer, someone who's newly to the program, and we share our story with them in hopes that something in our story is going to resonate with them so that they can not feel as much guilt, not feel as much shame. and ultimately understand, wow, I'm not alone. Because I can't even imagine the power of you, Grace, at 28 years old, the way you just said it, you know, very honestly, and I commend you for that. And I know it's probably not easy.

Saying that to a girl who's 30 days sober and has had that same experience and letting her know that, yeah, this sucks, but we can get through it. We can get through it together. I mean, that is the thing that happens in recovery in our community that a therapist and a doctor and a psychologist and a psychiatrist can't touch. They can come in afterwards and maybe help with some of the continuing work. But man, that's just like, that helped me. That helped me remember why the peer-to-peer element of recovery is so important.

Yeah, it's the only thing that really works. I think it's, yeah, I think it's essential because if you're just not drinking and you're, like, you have to change. Like, I had to change. I really did. And the only way to really even know how to change or what to change was to see it through other people. And then you stay there long enough and you start to see them really change. And then you look back to yourself.

And then that's how you can see, like, where you came from. Because otherwise, it's just, you know, I don't, you can't do it alone. You can stop drinking alone? But can you live on new footing by yourself? I don't think so. Well, this is why, you know, I look at something like cancer. I know there's like survivors groups and their support groups. And I oftentimes wonder why they're not more inclined to move towards some of the structure of the groups that we have.

Because ultimately, that's what we're doing. We're just sharing our experience with another person. That's it. Yeah. So back to this kind of thread that we were on here, Grace. And I really appreciate your vulnerability. Your honesty, you've always kind of worn your heart in your sleeve, which is why I think you're going to have an awesome career and quite frankly, life um do you so you get out of sm you have this six month period you try to stop drinking you

call your mom you end up in rehab for 28 days and can you again like share anything about that experience being in rehab and what that was like yeah i i loved rehab because your your bottom wasn't some miraculous it wasn't some no it was any other night kind of yeah i woke up one sunday afternoon and just after a blackout that I did every single weekend and I was just as they say sick and tired of being sick and tired. I was just done doing the mental gymnastics of like where are my things what's going on. But rehab I was put in like the young adult program because I was 24 and I was you know shoved in with all of the like 18 year old boys who did not want to be there and I could not relate to them less.

So I started hanging out with like the house moms and house dad, like people of like the 50s and 60s. And I really like related to them and they're drinking. And that was a really, really powerful experience. One thing in rehab that really to this day like still shocks me is like we are all sitting around like a table playing like Uno was like our game. I've never had so much fun playing Uno and one of the like counselors came in and we were going to have lunch or something. I don't even remember but they said like look to your left and look to your right. They do this at

a lot of places and they're like, you know, someone at your table is going to stay sober. Everyone else is pretty much either going to relapse or die from this disease like a very morbid thing to say and in my head like I truly did not believe I was like guys we're all here to stay sober like what what do you mean um and then when I got of rehab you know I was really connected to these people and slowly but surely they started all falling off um and I started to see like the reality of the disease like come to fruition and I was like blown away by it um because in my head I thought everyone, you know, I was so serious about this. I was like, I'm doing this once.

I'm going to do everything it takes to get there. And like, I thought everyone else was on the same page with that. And some of them were, but like sometimes the disease is too powerful and it overrides. But I mean, the behavioral health care and it's in hell. And it's the numbers are in hell. Like the true outcomes here are so staggering. I mean, like just based on that, what you share, that's 33%. There's no world in medical expertise where that is a positive number.

And that's, you know, probably not the real number. But so you get out and you come to release recovery. Yeah. Yep. Oh, my God. So you guys were filming the thing about Kratom the other day? Yeah. um call back so i my parents picked me up your sober date's not your sober date you drank

cratum yeah shut up no you're high and create them right now i'm not going there i've been drinking crate them for three years i need to go back to rehab no my parents pick me up from ashley and drive me straight to release as suggested we followed all the suggestions but before i went to rehab like one of my favorite drinks was kombucha um because for gut health and blah blah blah i like the way it tasted. Didn't know there was traces of alcohol in it. And so when my mom picked me up, she brought a cooler of like all my favorite things, which was so sweet. You know, there was sparkling water, there was snacks, there were grapes, there was kombucha. And I had been at rehab for 28 days where I was only drinking coffee, water and like orange juice basically. And I got in the

car and like chugged two kombuchas because I was like, oh my God, like so excited to have have like my things back and I got to release and they drug test to me and breathalized me. And I didn't know this until I started working at release like, what, six months later that I had like pops for alcohol. Right. Wow. And so that's why they were being like so cagey with me like the first day I was there because I thought I had like drink on the way back from rehab.

And I was like, why didn't why didn't you tell me? Like I mean, I would have denied it. And then, you know, we've gotten to this whole thing and they just said it's tough. It's what makes this work tough because you don't tell them you sort of. No, we. No, we want no. I mean, like I don't know what again case by case. Like I don't know the specifics of the thing. This is, you know, four years ago now. So I, you know, I, and I wasn't involved. I don't work at the women's program for obvious reasons. And, you know, what I'll say is, part of what Grace is saying is what makes behavior health care so hard. We want to believe the patient. We want to believe the patient. We want to believe the. client, but so oftentimes they're lying. Yeah. And, and, and that, that can make for a very tough go at it.

You know, that, if we call grace on it and she kind of gets angsty and then it just becomes like from day one, it's this kind of toxic relationship. She might drink over that. Right. She might drink over that. Well, fuck, if I, if I'm already being accused of being drunk, I might as well go do it anyway. Right.

And, and that's why we have to be so mindful and so empathetic and so understanding of the people who are going through because even if she did drink right what good is it to shame her and guilt her and to feel like we have to keep her safe medically right uh but ultimately that's her story to tell and and so and so you you we're we're going to get short on time here and there's a lot more to talk about so like i just think can you share so like being a young woman in recovery landing in new york city being at release recovery what why were you like I always say I don't know why I was so willing like but you from very early on where was it your upbringing was it your kind of belief in the process like why do

you think you leaned in I honestly don't know and I think that was like a power grigger myself that was that was like leading me because I I truly don't know why I called my mom that day I don't know why I was like let's go to rehab I'm so excited um and like went to release like i i i would be so in calling back to the conversation we had with dr uh with david row the neuropsychologist i would be fascinated to have him test like five people and one of them is like you someone who's like i'm doing this i'm like i'm i'm i'm going to make this work the other one is like someone that we've because we all know the people in a who for years like just keep

going back out and it just gets worse and worse and worse and they come to you again and like this is the time and they do it again like put that person like have them be psychologically tested you know because I because we call it like a miracle right like it's unexplainable but like I really do think it's a certain personality type doesn't have to be the same personality type but there are certain personality types which are more likely to sort of receive this yeah because that's why it's like 33% it's definitely not that high you know and you just want people to realize that you know hey this is good for you and they just

can't and i don't know what that is i have no idea but i was like so willing and i'm also like very type a too so i was just like these are all the things i have to do to stay sober and to what was the most helpful thing early on was it was it i mean obviously like you know there's value in the house but was it going out to meetings and meeting other women was it like what As a young woman in early recovery, what was the most helpful thing? Having a sponsor. Someone that, like, I could call and be like, what the hell do I do? Like, this is what's happening.

And, like, now I think back and, like, these are very small inconveniences that I were huge at the time. But having someone, like, to just call and be like, what is this? What's going on? And someone that has walked, like you said, walked the same. what path I have and yeah i mean i think there's just juxtaposition in early sobriety whereas at 45 days sober you might want to go to the birthday party or the wedding or take the overnight pass or do the thing and someone who has been there before can very calmly tell you grace that's probably not in your best interest yeah and i had that happen to me at the house a couple

times and i got very angry um and it's also like like like the thing the the the not but like the idea like there are ideas that we I still tell to certain people you know who are asking me a question outside of that aren't sober and it like blows their mind you know like these things that we've just learned in in recovery you know but like the idea of walking into an event a party a wedding and thinking like my sole focus is I'm going to think how can I be helpful here everyone I talked to is all about them like that blew my mind because whether I was aware of it or not I was just constantly watching myself and watching myself through other people.

And like to be able to do that and receive that nugget, I could, I really feel like I could go into any situation. And there's, you know, countless other things where you just get told things that just help you deal and look at things differently. What? And today, what is, how are you saying sober? Community AA. Just connecting with other alcoholics and being of service.

Joy? Yeah, joy. I love joy. Well, no, I mean, look. But do you ever think like, fuck, man, I just want to go. No, let's not go there. Why? Because it's not, that's not what this is about.

We're at the end of her story, man. We're sitting here sober. Like, this is not like, like, I don't even want to put that energy out here. That's just me. I don't know if you're superstitious. I'm not superstitious in that way. Yeah. What were you going to say?

Because I'm, because it's a full, like, you know and like I'm just curious well I have two things one is like what's the best thing for you to stay on the hope trail what's the best thing about being sober in your 20s right and like how do you let me put let me phrase this way if you ever think about what if I was living this way you know like how do you navigate that you know that thought I think of all the things I will lose immediately and I played the tape through. Like I don't, I won't, I'll lose my job. In theory, I'll lose my job, I'll lose my relationships,

romantically and family and all of the things because I know myself when I start drinking, like I will become the most self-centered person. And I fight that every single day to try not to be that person. And so, yeah, I do have moments where I'm like, you know what, a glass of wine sounds really good right now. And I had that last week and contemplated it, thought about it for like five seconds. But I know what that one glass leads to a bottle, leads to cocaine, leads to doing some crazy

things in the next morning waking up and being like full of regret, full of shame and having to start start over that's great that's great that's helpful great question jay uh all right so i want to finish here what is grace adams tell the young woman we don't even have to do the younger self thing like what what does grace adams tell the 22 year old young woman who may have some sexual trauma who may have a problem with drinking who may lack self-esteem and most importantly has no hope for their future. Pretty cliche, but I would tell them that you're worth it and that you're not alone and that there's another way to like live your life and see yourself and be with yourself

that you probably can't even comprehend right now because I know I couldn't. Um, but if you, if you do the work, you'll be able to see the other side and it's beautiful and it's something you'll be so grateful that you did. That's beautiful, Grace. Thank you. Thank you for sharing with us. We can obviously bring you back in any time so long as you're, you know, here with us. And, uh, Jay, talk about Baltimore and Baltimore. Yeah, we got to, it's fine. We can go into Baltimore. Gina. Um, um, Oh, yeah. Jay, how are you staying sober today? I think that's important to hear. Jay's got 27, 19 years. What is it?

18 years. 18 years sober and well, look, I think that for me, I, uh, I am connected to so many alcoholics, you know, people in recovery, you know. I mean, I'm, I do this podcast where we talk about it. Look, my comment about you leaving AA was a little tongue and cheek. Of course, but look, my relationship, and my relationship to AA has changed fundamentally. And I think that's why I also want to bring up, you know, I also ask that question to Grace because I think it's important to like really give the full picture.

Like it's not that you're just going to like enter a place of sobriety or recovery and like never think bad thoughts or never like feel like this is, what if I was doing something differently? I think it's the ability to sort of like think those things. and then, like, realize what you said, play the tape through, and that, like, you know, this life is infinitely better and richer and more satisfying than anything I was living the way before. Today, what do I do, man?

Like, I still am connected to other alcoholics. I have, I do not, I've not been to a meeting. And it's not, like, conscious at this point, but I've not been to a meeting in, in years, really, you know. And I, but I, but like, I had such a profound experience. you know, like I really did start to build a relationship with, you know, with God or a power greater than myself, whatever that is, intuition, the universe, whatever you want to call it.

You know, I still, like, I have just started actually to making fun of grace, but like I've started journaling again, which I find it to be a helpful because things get so, I think A.A. was so good in having people in your life in a meeting and the structure, it was so good at cutting away the noise, right? like it could bring you back to like what is like the most important thing and like when you when you're constantly reminded of that it's it's not hard to stay close to it do you just do you not have the time or you just don't well there's of course i have the honest answer of course i have the time that's you know i can say listen i have two kids you know um i live in new york city

which makes things everything more difficult including like just going to the grocery store uh i i have several jobs like there is no excuse, man. You know what I mean? If I wanted to get up for a 7.30 meeting or once a week, I'm going to go to a 730 meeting or go to an 8. I could do it. I just, I, I don't. And Is there a party that knows it's there if you need it? Absolutely. There's a part of me that knows, but I get it, man. Like, I get it like when we talk. I get it through the other people that we talk. Like, I spoke to someone on the phone the other day who's like, I think I might have a weird thing going on with alcohol, you know, like even for, even a couple years ago, I helped someone

who came to me and said, like, I'm struggling and like, I wasn't like, and I said, listen, I can tell you like, I can tell you what to do because I've done it, but I'm not doing it right now. So you just need to know that. I'm doing other things. So I know it's, I know what's there, but like, I mean, look, man, this is a bigger conversation because like I do love AA, but like I also had an experience that I'm like, you know what? Like, that was a little fucked up. Like, you know, the whole like Jay and his wife are running around like you know little king and queen of AA and all these like you can get drunk off of that attention you know like you're in a meeting every day in the same place the same seat with the same people and then in comes the new guy who's

like you need to talk to that guy he will save you and it's it's you know and like a lot of it was like that and like if you don't have a healthy attitude like you that can sort of become harmful and dangerous and also too like you just have to have the right perspective because I've seen a lot of people who like were, you know, people you put on a pedestal and either they're not sober or they're not in A.A. anymore. And does that mean A.A. doesn't work? Absolutely not. Because if I were a kid in New York City and I was trying to get sober and they came to me, I'd say you need to go here. You know, so am I a hypocrite a little bit? No. No. You've lived it. No, we can get into it more. I mean, look, I'm grateful for you. And I'm grateful for your

honesty. I think, I think, you know, better men are less honest than that. So, uh, this has been nice, you know, what? That was kind of a dig. Why? Because you're saying there are better men than me out there, Zach. And where are they? Where are they? Better men. No, I know. Society views them. I know. Are less honest than Jay just was. I'll always be honest. And, and I, I think like, that's when you get into trouble. When you start, you start building those little lies and little, pockets of your life so I'm gonna ask you this right now Zach Clark okay we're no I'm just kidding I'm not I'm not but no but I am I am where how about you though like where are there parts of your life that you feel like you know what like this need this needs like to be flooded

out a little bit more like it's I'm still sort of protecting this no no protecting what I don't know I don't know man no I don't there's always there's always going to be resentment and and and sludge and yeah you know you run a business you do the thing I mean look right now where I'm at it's the end of the year and at the end of the year in my life the way that I live everyone has their handout because it's the end of the year and that's I hate this time of year it's not joyful it's not exciting it's it doesn't there's nothing about it that I like about the month of December. It's just not, there's just, and, and I have come to accept that as part of my existence.

Ultimately, I can, I can say no to whatever it is, whether it's someone that wants to raise or someone that see something differently or something that, you know, whatever the thing is, it's just for me, the way that my life has been built currently right now today. So what am I doing? I'm actually, like looking inward and doing a more thorough job of running my own personal program of recovery because that's all I know at the end of the day that's the only thing that I can honestly say has never let me down never let me down because it's free no one wants your last name and it's

very clear and you're one of the people in my life that that made it so clear to me i share that all the time you know one of the questions you said to me was kind of like hey it sounds like you drank alcohol straight from the bottle and shot heroin uncut you know so that i'm going to give you this program of recovery in the same fashion which is like line by line the way that it was given to me and you made it very clear that it actually wasn't your solution you didn't claim it you said i'm really just teaching this to you you were really just a teaching you were really just a here. And that makes it a lot less emotional and a lot easier for me that likes to think I'm right about things or put my own spin on shit to digest it. Yeah. So that's it. I mean, look, I, I'm very

grateful for both you guys. I mean, this thing that we're doing right now wouldn't be here without you. And it's, you know, there's been some funny episodes and some laughs and some moments. And and the thing I know, I mean, like we always joke, like we don't actually know how many people are listening to this show, which is, which is fine, but, you know, I, the thing I do know is I get the messages. The messages come in. And that's all it matters. Dude, I saw a message the other day of someone who said, I watched this show. I saw a clip last year and then I went and listened to the podcast and now I'm 85 days sober. That's awesome. This one? Yeah. Why didn't you share that with me, bro? I forgot, man. It's probably a great real slice of. You know what? I probably thought he's probably

and think like all right yeah i mean i get those messages all the time every day i need them to keep going but that's enough you know this is enough this is enough grace is enough i mean like the stories that i'm sitting with right here in this room are enough thanks appreciate both you guys in your honesty facts facts facts facts my dog