The Zac Clark Show - What Parents Get Wrong: Hard Truths from John Lieberman, Adolescent Recovery Expert

Episode Date: April 23, 2025

John Lieberman has spent the last 30 years helping teens and families navigate the most complex emotional terrain imaginable—addiction, anxiety, depression, and everything in between. As CEO of Visions Treatment Centers, John is widely recognized as one of the nation’s leading experts in adolescent behavioral health. Visions is a unique program that not only offers extended care but also includes a sober high school for teens struggling with substance use disorder and mental health issues.He joins Zac and Jay to talk about what’s really going on with young people today—and what parents, clinicians, and communities can actually do to help.From cell phone addiction and the mental health fallout of hyper-connected childhoods to the rise in adolescent gambling and cannabis use, John unpacks the root causes behind what he calls “a silent epidemic of loneliness and overwhelm.” He also shares what makes Visions different—from its pioneering academic model to its deep commitment to family involvement and individualized care.Highlights include:Why delaying substance use is one of the most powerful forms of preventionHow technology is rewiring kids’ brains—and parents’ tooThe importance of unstructured time, real-world friendships, and learning to fall and get back upWhy many ADHD diagnoses may actually be unrecognized trauma or anxietyHow parents can show up differently (and why showing up matters more than being perfect)When intervention is necessary—and when it becomes traumaticHow shame and stigma still block families from getting help, even when the stakes are life and deathThis is more than a conversation about adolescent treatment—it’s about parenting, connection, and what it really means to see and support a young person in crisis. Whether you're a parent, provider, or someone who cares about the next generation, this one will stay with you.To learn more about Visions Treatment Center: https://visionsteen.com/Connect with Zachttps://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclarkhttps://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release:[phone]releaserecovery.com@releaserecovery

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Welcome back to the Zach Clark show. I'm super excited. Jay's rattled today. Jay's rattled. I've set up everything by myself, so scary. But today we have with us, John Lieberman. John is the CEO. of Vision's Treatment Center, which is out in Malibu, California,

with multiple residential locations kind of all over the place, and we're going to get into that. But first and foremost, John, I just want to say hi. Hi. Hi. It's great to be here in the city. I remember the first time I met you across the table. When was this? This was been in probably, is it maybe, is it, could it be 15 years ago,

maybe less? So 15, I was still shooting, though, 15, so 13 and a half is a spriety. So it was probably like 12 years ago. years at 12. Yeah. Sitting across the table at, you know, I was coming to New York periodically to talk to people about what we did and you were one of those people at a young guy at a table like trying to figure out what the hell we were doing. Yeah. You know? And so I think that's where we met and then kind of just you kind of worked with some kids and we, you know, at times it called you because of your experience, I think probably with Karen and stuff and we talked

a couple of times and we'd see each other. Yeah, we've been at this a while. And that's, that's one of the cool things about the work we do is you can not i haven't seen you probably for a few years now you're out and since i toured since i was out there the place is awesome by the way visions is in an awesome place and the spirit and the energy in a world where a lot of programs are getting bought and sold and pushed around is still alive and well visions which i i'm happy to say that yeah where is it it's uh so um way up on the north end of malibu and the canyons um and that's our substance abuse dual diagnosis facility. Then we have a separate facility just for mental health down at Thousand Oaks. Then we have extended care in Santa Monica. So we're one of the few programs that has extended care

for adolescents. And then a whole outpatient program into day school. So we have a high school, sober high school. Wow. First private sober high school in the nation. So. Wow. Yeah. We looked into a bunch of recovery high schools. Yeah. I mean, those things have been thrown for years. I mean, I remember when I moved to the city, Joe Shrank and who was it? They were doing something. They were trying to get it. trying to get it going. So doing it privately helped us just because we could do it our own way. Does that make sense?

You know, like, and then, you know, we got, you know, wash accreditation to make it more, I think, work better with the systems so that people, the credits could be transferable on all those things. Because we felt like you take a kid, if they start getting better, they get excited about being better, and you're sending them back to school. It's like, you know, sending a diabetic to go work in a donut shop and tell them not to eat the donuts or, you know, an alcoholic, go back. Go work in a bar.

Don't drink again. The kids, that's a lot of times where their connections and some of their negative feelings were. So it takes time. And so we just said, let's start a school. I love that. So the long short of it here is John has been working with teens, adolescents, for the better part of the last 30 years.

Is that right? July 29th, 1985 is when I got a job. And my first job is a floor tech, supervisor, whatever, at a little treatment center in Southern California. Then it was called Wainimi Adventist Hospital. And so you've seen everything. Yeah, at least up to that point, yeah. You're from California, Southern California?

Yeah, from Southern California. A little town of 3,000 people out in the kind of desert mountains. Do you have kids? I do. Yeah, I do. So I have a 37-year-old daughter. Oh, wow. Darsana and a 39-year-old daughter, Justine.

You look young. I mean, 37, that's a... a grown woman you know so and so wait this gets better my grandchildren are 21 18 16 and 11 months wow okay great so I want to start with the 11 months because the question that keeps rattling around in my head I'm 41 I don't have kids Jay has two kids yep that are young and there are people right now in this world saying I would the statement is I wouldn't bring a child into this world and I feel like that's kind of bullshit. I feel like the world's always going to be changing and feel scary, but to say I'm not, would you bring a kid in today's world? Howard is beautiful. He's happy. My daughter.

Howard's 11 months old. He's 11 months old. He's 11 months old. He's, he's in this world. So tell me when it was a good time to bring kids in the world. World War I, the Depression, World War II, Vietnam, when Nixon was president, when who, what, what is the situation? that makes things worse or better, I think that it's how we show up to the situation. What do I want to do? Do I, am I willing to show up for my kids? And yes, there are going to be difficulties. But that's across the board.

You know, if you think about kind of, you know, in man's search for meaning, he didn't know he was going to go to Auschwitz, right? But what did we get out of that for somebody who went through a really tough time to learn about you know what what's important what is meaning why do we have a why you know how do you meet the situation yeah had it yeah maslow i think from that point of view should he not have been born because it was going to be a tough time i don't know well you know i guess i asked the question because i feel like in our work behavioral health care we parents are are hyper fixated on fixing and the problem.

And I always go back and forth with your work, which is I think there's kind of like two schools of thought. One is, okay, we have a 15-year-old kid here that is smoking a ton of weed and not doing so well in school. And they're presenting with some mental health stuff. Do we rip that kid out of school and say, we're going to deprive you, right, for lack of a better word, of the typical high school experience?

or do we try and keep you in the system that you're in and get through it knowing that it could get worse from here? So where do you land in that thing? Because I think parents are more likely nowadays to take that kid and say, you have something wrong with you and we need to fix it. You're talking about the wilderness, probably taking a kid.

Anything. I'm vision anywhere. I think it's kind of switched a little bit. So the answer to your question is yes. Yes. We try to figure out how to keep. keep men there and take care of them. Can we put together the kind of scaffolding around them, right?

Whether that's mental health support, substance abuse support, family support, these poor moms who are just frantic not knowing what to do with their kid who is, they recognize they're hurting, they recognize that there's trouble here and not knowing exactly what to do about it, right? Should they keep them there? Maybe, but it's getting help. And I think we as a society aren't

real good at asking for help. Are there times when kids, yeah, let's get them out of that situation and find a healthy, supportive situation for them. And when people say, well, should they go to wilderness, should they go to a residential program, should I send them away to a boarding school, well, get advice from some really, some trusted people, like people who are experts, and I think it's important for parents to know, what's the goal? What do I want for my kid? Right? Do I want them to get stable so that they can get back in school and have a full life? Do I just want them to be a mensch, a good person, connected? What does it look like for a parent? What are their values in this process? A mom one time told me that going through the process of treatment with her son

was like emotionally going through a pregnancy and a labor. Because she said the first time you have a baby, none of it makes sense. It is so painful. It is so difficult. You talk to people and they say things, everybody has a different opinion about, you know, what kind of water you should drink, the salad, whether you should be vegan, whether you should breastfeed, which side you should start on all the things, right? And she said, it was like that with addiction for my son when he was in trouble, and then I found out he had a serious depression going on. But at the other side of it, as my son started getting better, it was like a new birth.

I got to see the light in his eyes again. I got to have a connection in a new way. And I understood as a parent better about, like, how do I deal with my own? shit to be able to set limits because I'm so afraid of what might happen to my son. We just spoke to someone last week who is, you know, is a doctor in addiction treatment medicine and said something that, you know, hit me as I think about, I'm 17 years sober myself. I started drinking and using, not like in a dangerous way, but I was experimenting at a very young age. And she said that studies have shown that the longer that you can delay

you know connection to substances the less likely someone is going to develop a problem she is so the studies were originally done by casa she might have quoted the study and now it's the center on addiction located right here in the city and the study shows exactly that delay delay delay the brain is developing the brain is oh yeah the phone's going off and everything um we we know that and And the study looks like this. Like around puberty, if somebody starts experimenting using, including nicotine, they have a one and four chance of developing addiction-related consequences. So addiction-related consequences isn't like missing a class, which somebody could do from partying.

It's failing the class. It's not getting in trouble for driving the car. It's getting an accident and hurting somebody. It's not having pre-marital sex or whatever you want to call it. It's actually getting pregnant or getting an STD. Those are addiction-related consequences, right? So that's what we're worried about. But if that same person waits until they're 21 years old, it drops to 1 in 25 or better.

Wow. I mean, what other disease could we say that about? And it's because the brain starts developing. You're always going to have people who are more susceptible to addiction. There are genetic factors. But when there's more stability, when the kind of gray matter stuff kind of starts working itself out, things are more stable. and your brain isn't trying to figure out

just how to survive because that's what kids are doing. 14, 13, 14, 15. Do you remember being in junior high school? Yeah. It's fucking survival. Sorry about my language. It's tough and who wants to go back

and do that again. And that's what these kids are dealing with and that's the average age of first use is like 10 and a half. That's average age. Right now. Yeah. Average age.

And so nicotine, alcohol, drugs, whatever is. The first time that kids in our world are using substances is 10 and half years old they're not going to the dealer down the street that's what people think they're going to do the dealer down street because the dealer down the street now is not down the street the dealer down the street is this right to cell phone it's also an uncle who has a joint parents who have alcohol and

liquor cabinet it's very benign early but there's certain kids that when they kind of do that their brains go oh we kind of like that it just fixed us a little bit whether they have attention deficit whether they have some anxiety, whether their parents are going through divorce, whether there's just challenges going on normally. And it can be, it kind of tease them up. So that's from a substance abuse. Yeah. So there's what you're saying is there is merit to shielding your kids from substances as long as you possibly can. There's and now we know it's not just yeah, delay delay, shield them from that because their brains are developing and how we use the cell phones. Yeah. You know, because we're seeing now,

I think, and probably you guys see it with the with the people you treat. that the affinity for being liked or not liked creates such anxiety can collapse somebody who seems to be doing well because there's our, our world is now, with these is based on how much, do I get what I want immediately? Did somebody get what I want immediately?

Which acts like substances too. Do you think, because we've heard a lot of people talk about social media, technology, you know, being such a driver. It seems like a very simplified way to say that's why kids are more anxious or more depressed. Do you think it is? And I'll tell it, because do you think it is? Well, we kind of know it is. So I'm not going to promote his book too much because we've been saying this. This dad was talking to me, says, you have to read anxious generation. You have to read. Hate? Yeah, yeah. Jonathan Hayt. Yeah. But let me say this. We've been saying this in the

adolescent treatment field for 20 years. What we said back early on, the founder of Vision said, I spend so much. Chris? Chris. Shumo. Shout out, Chris is not here. Chris, I'm coming for you. Yeah, Chris. He's a, him and Amanda Schummo started visions. And what, what he said a long time ago is we spend so much, especially our parents, spend so much money putting their kids in the right school, the right neighborhood, the right everything. And then they buy them the portal to the worst neighborhood. All the things where there's bullying, there's no supervision. Parents say, my kids wouldn't do that.

I'm like, oh my God, what's wrong with you? That's what kids are supposed to do. Kids are supposed to push the limit. When I was a kid, we had a tree house, and we had half a page from a Playboy magazine, and the other kid had half the other page so we could put it together to see what the image looked like. And we all knew, like, there's no treehouses anymore. You don't need a tree house.

because there's cell phones where kids can find that stuff and you say, well my kid doesn't know where it is but the kid next door does and the kids who are talking and what's happened is this anxiety is created by this constant like not being able to stop

the process and I remember when I got a phone in my room and I would put it I had a drawer under my bed I'd put it in there so my girlfriend could call at night but I would be waiting so my parents couldn't hear it ring

right so I could whisper to her at night when I was like 16 years old but I was waiting for that how much more so today where these phones are ding ding ding ding ding oh I'm close man I'll say it here like I I am close to the flip phone yeah I'm close and you might think I'm full of shit because I've said it here before but I don't and maybe it's my substance use disorder maybe it's the way that I live maybe it's some of the going on TV I don't know what it is but for me I feel like more so than ever, it's just like I have a reaction to the sound, to the thing, to the, like, whatever it is. And I genuinely believe, like, having a flip phone where I can text and call and just make it easy.

Yes. Well, so not to, I mean, look, Jonathan Heights's research, here's what it showed. This is one of the most neatest things I love about that book. they looked at minor injuries like getting uh stitches stitches you know broken fingers you know bad scrapes knocked on the head all that stuff it's gone down by like something like 60% in the past 25 years and he talks about that is because you don't have as many kids out riding their bikes doing their skateboards doing the thing and the combination of being able to like get hurt, squabble with your friends, and work that out?

Doesn't that teach us as how to banter with people, how to connect with people, what it means to be like in a relationship and also to have a failure? Like fall down, cut yourself, go through all that, show back up and play dodgeball again, or whatever the thing is. And those things are so important. And meanwhile, parents are trying to fix, protect, create these boundaries, right? And there's weird things happening in between where the kids have access a lot of time to some stuff that is emotionally pretty dangerous or hurtful. So how do you, okay, hypothetically, you're raising a 13, 14 year old in this world.

And your kid is the last one to get the cell phone. And he keeps coming home and saying, but daddy, everyone else has a phone. Everyone else has it. What are you, are you digging in and saying, no, you can't have a phone? Well, first you start early with here's how it's going to work. I think kids should know probably by the time they're like seven years old. Son, the first cell phone you're going to get is when you're 16. And we're going to talk about that. You're going to get an emergency phone, say, when you're 30, whatever it is. This is how we're going to do it. And I think parents

should do that with thoughtfulness so that they kind of know what the process is, how we're going to do that. And partially is because we know how brains develop when they're watching screens all the time. So it's fine. You just kind of tell them that's the way it's going to be. And yes, they're going to try to work around you. Look, I've daughters who in my day, they figured out how to set up their first email account they weren't supposed to. And I found on the computer where they were talking to boys on email the way that they weren't supposed to. But I was paying attention. so we caught them. They also had to, like, put in a little bit of effort.

They did, and then we shut it down there, and then they went back to the library and turned it back on. They had really silly passwords that we were able to figure out, but it was the dog's names. And they had to go somewhere to do it. They could just pull out of their pocket. Do you think social media we would or will or should get to a point where it's just, like, banned or illegal until, like, like, alcohol or, you know.

There should be an age, yeah. Yeah. But it's so hard to do. I mean, you know, it's very difficult. I don't know how they're going to put the perimeters on there. But if we look right now with what's going on with some of the social model, social, sorry, like, you know, whatever, Instagram, things like that. We found that they did the same kind of research that the tobacco companies did

on how to keep people engaged, but never did the research on the damage that could be done, right? So some of the lawsuits going on right now are you specifically figured out how to get minors involved. The same way the alcohol companies used Joe Camel and things like that, right? And we got rid of all that. We said this is not okay. And then they come out and the leaders are like, well, you don't know what's going on. We're just trying to, you know, provide a service. They're not trying to provide a service.

They're billionaires. It's an insult to us. And what's the technology? What's the technology protocol at Visions? Oh, so at Visions, when kids come, they don't have cell phones, no laptops, iPads, just for school, and we supervise that, not just supervised from a distance. The teacher actually has a screen that shows what each kid's doing. We lock a lot of things out, and still there's kids who have figured out how to hijack the system. Not many, but have figured it out.

they figured out through even through like they'll say they have to have their school network and don't realize that the school network's not that secure so they figure those things out and they're trying to send messages to friends and things like that but no technology until the kids have been in treatment

usually like if they transition to extended care like after 90 days then they start with the flip phone see how they do with that gradually get another phone back they're going to get it back we just want to see we even want them to fail failing and figuring out how to how to repair that repair the therapeutic relationship repair the relationship with their families

that's one of the best things that can happen well because i imagine the parents are are in some cases are lobbying for their kids to get their cell phones back immediately when they leave treatment right i mean because they need them because they need to track them because they need to know where they are because they need to see what they're spending money on like it's a drug for the parents too yes it absolutely is and our society has set it up in a way like so um i was talking to a young man he said i don't know what to do. My dad texts me about 10 minutes after I leave every class whenever there's a quiz because he's getting that quizzes are coming in real time. Can you imagine this poor kid was just, he said, I don't know how to function because I'm worried about what my dad. He knows

the grade before I do. And dad's calling him and texting at school. Why did this happen? Why did you miss this? What's going on? Didn't you study? And he's trying to go into his next class. That poor kid is just so that that leads into my question you know really it's what can parents do but my first question is how how have you seen parents change over the last you know five 10 15 20 years so so like when I talk to that dad he's like I know I just have I see it and then I know I shouldn't tax my son and I do it anyway and I've got anxiety because oh dad's got anxiety too and in this case it's interesting dad's like and then I smoke pot sometimes to deal with my anxiety and my son knows it and I tell him not to do it so this dad says

I'm not going to smoke pot anymore so that's the first thing when you start making changes what's in the best interest of your kids this young man came to treatment and was able to talk to his dad about this they had a relationship by the time they left treatment but dad he realized that oh my god of course my son's anxious and his son actually had other things going on too and of course my son's going to try to find a way to manage his anxiousness because I do, you know. And they, they started building a relationship based on honesty and showing up. You know, the first thing is dad did show up. Dad showed up knowing he was going to be, there were issues he was going to have to deal with. And as parents, we all mess up. We say things to our kids. We're, you know, angry. We have

things in our past, all that stuff. But we really love somebody. We show up in spite of that. So the kids are getting report cards online now. Is that like, because, in a second not just report cards the quiz yeah that's insane i mean i got four report cards a year and those were the four days where i had to like face my parents about either the good or the bad that like they were mailed in an envelope to my parents and we opened it together and it would be like c plus or oh i intercepted it so that i don't know where the report card is i would intercept that those and you know trash them burn i'm getting really this conversation is making me really sad what it is sad what's the ben like what is the rationalization of of using technology

in that way. I mean, like, we need the, that, we need to be that immediate. Like, there has, like, are the, are the schools, they're afraid that, that, you know, the parents aren't involved, that there's neglect, that they're going to get blamed for something, like, why? Both. So parents are very much, like, they want that information, think that they should have it, because this is a real-time situation so that they can help their kids.

And there are parents who are absolutely understanding and can kind of deal with these situations, but there are also, there's situations that I think, I think it would be good for parents to have training about this. The problem is, this is new. So who really knows? And we look back at some of these, like, at some of the effects this happening. So no wonder you have certain number of kids who just want to escape, right? And we see kids today who do really well for a while.

Like they're doing, especially in the mental health program that we have, they're doing like straight A's. Parents like, they got straight A's up until this date. and they collapsed. They refused to go to school. They wouldn't get out of bed. And the more the parents pushed, they didn't know what to do. And they're like, this was the kid that I didn't have to push to do anything.

But the kid was feeling the anxiety and pushing themselves in a way that was overwhelming and didn't know how to talk about it. Helping to teach our kids how to communicate and have honest conversations, it's not an easy thing to do, but there are ways to do it. And sometimes it just takes help too. You know, especially with adolescents, you go from your kid like, Oh, do we get to walk to the store for, you know, ice cream and to go to the park to, you know, what?

You know, they kind of start grunting at their parents. And parents, a lot of times don't know how to respond to that. Yeah, what's the least amount of time I can spend with my parents? Yes. Yeah. How do I do that? And, you know, when my kids were young, we did, you know, we figured out, we opened, we turned the garage into a place where the kids could play games and things like that.

You try to figure out how to, how to do things to support. And I knew they were going to do things that could get them in trouble. I just wanted them, for lack of a better way, I wanted them within striking distance, right, so I could see the other kids and what was going on. Do you blame in your work

of 100 cases that show up on your doorstep? Are you blaming the parents more? Are you blaming the kids more? No, this is not... Not blame, but yeah, I got it. This is not fault. We're all in this together. Yeah.

You know, are you laughing at the use word blame? No, no, because I know you're saying. No, but we're not blaming them, but like what you're saying is true. like the parents need to be involved in the right way not as like that's my point just johnny getting an a you know it's like what's going on with johnny what's he really thinking and feeling well okay but this is this is interesting so i'm i'm dealing with the dad dad walks in he goes he shakes his head and he goes he goes john i have five kids

this one all the others with normal whatever their discipline limit setting the way they did it working fine this one and this one is you know burning the house down basically you know emotionally going out the window at night the other kids are like i don't know what's wrong with joe he's you know we're we don't want to get in trouble they're feeling they're feeling the effect of how this child so that's i think where it comes into kind of like when it comes to the genetics there are kids who are different and the parents like i'm not sure what to do and it is so amazing when those kids find when those parents find out okay joe is processing differently than susie is joe needs some time attention connection in a different way and parents are like

all i need to know is the way and a lot of times it's the kids who can tell them remember when you did this that was great when you did this didn't work and and and with some therapy and connection and if the kids start using you need some sobriety too you got to to have some distance, but we're also dealing with kids who are, you know, parents are seeing kids cut, they're seeing kids with anxiety, they're seeing kids with talking about, you know, suicide and things like that. And parents, that terrifies them. They don't even know how to respond. And then how do I talk about that? We don't have a world that is really connected in a way that says, oh, my son just said he's not sure he wants to wake up ever again.

who do I talk to about that? Because a lot of times if my mom will think I failed, my friends, their kids are all doing great, nobody else has problems. If you open up, they'd say, somebody would say that they have kids with the similar issues. So I was in a group and running what's what we call a multifamily group. So all the parents, so I had like eight,

maybe 15 parents in a room, moms and dads. and I said, I just started the group with, who lied about your kid this week? And they were like shaking, and his dad raised his hand. I said, who'd you lie to? He says, I lied to everybody. I told my boss that my kid was at camp. I told my mom that my kid was on vacation.

I told this person this. I told grandma that he's still at home. It's fine. Just doesn't have time to call. And his son had tried to kill himself. But he didn't know how to deal with it. The thing is, he raises his hand. Then every other parent in the room said,

this is how I lied about my kid, this is how I lied about my kid, because it is the most painful to deal with when your child is hurting themselves when they're in a place and you don't know what to do, and then you're reaching out to strangers like me, it's a big deal. But isn't it, I mean, like, I also think of this word competitive. Whether your kid is doing well or not, I would imagine that a lot of parents lie about their kid to make themselves feel better. also to make their kid in some weird way feel better. And sometimes it's not like some parents say,

I didn't lie about my kid, but we also don't talk about the struggles, right? It's hard to talk about the struggles. And there is that competitiveness. When somebody walks in the room, here's a good example. So I'm a dad, I'm a grandfather, my grandchildren are 21, 18, 16, and 11 months old. My children are 37 and 39.

mine. My, you know, so, and they've been through a lot. They've been through a lot. They're doing great now. Daughter who's part of, owns a program, doing great. I have another, my other daughter, she is one of the biggest supporters and fighters for other people who've, like, been in cults and things like that. She helps them out. It's filed lawsuits against cult leaders and things like that. Why cults? Colts. Yeah, why? Why Colts? From her own experience. She just saw something.

and she's like, I got help. I got help people. And she's just, she's just a great voice for, you know, so, but at one point, I had both my kids in treatment. So one was in an eating disorder program. They don't mind me talking about this. I hope. No, so when it was an eating disorder program, one who was in an outpatient program for substance abuse. And, and so I'm talking to this, this guy, really nice guy. And I said, how are your kids doing? He says, oh you know my son he's just graduating from from school and he's starting his residency with my daughter's practice they're both going to be doctors he says how are your kids doing and I'm like well one is on stage two at X treatment center and the other one the director

just called me because she might get kicked out because she's been so mean at the other treatment center. That's, you know, and that's a hard thing to talk about when what I wanted to say was, oh, they're doing this, they're doing that. And by the way, John, what do you do for work again? Yeah, and for work, I run a treatment center. Right. I had a parent say one time, how can John run a treatment center? He can't even control his own kids. And Chris said, fair. Chris said, that's actually why he's right. Yeah, that's why. I'm sympathetic. But it's a fair question. Yeah, because we think sometimes does the headmaster have to have kids who are straight A, you've got to get straight A's. I'd rather have the headmaster who knows how to deal with the kid and help the kid who's

struggling. Because a lot of times the kid who gets straight A's, they need some supports and a little bit of help. How do I help the kid who's getting C's to get, you know, A's and B's and feel great about it, have an experience where they get the light in their eye? That's what I want. I want those kids to have a light in their eye and I want parents to see that and they go, oh my God, there's just that little bit of hope, right? Yes. Because this doesn't start with that. A lot of times it starts with like a hospital stay or, you know, terror or fighting

for so much in the home. Well, I mean, what I'm listening to you and I'm just thinking about, you know, back to the non-blame blame blame, I mean, I sort of do think it's the parents. And it starts, you know, way before the kids are even aware. I'm not saying that every kid is going to develop a substance use disorder or have mental health challenges. But, like, as parents, and I say this for myself, you know, constantly looking at what the other kid is doing, constantly on social media, you're seeing other people's lives, they have this, there's 10 different kind of strollers to fucking go up the stairs, you know, what kind of food should they be eating? Like, there's just, and everyone has a voice, and everyone presents as if they're doing it the right way or they know how to do it.

And then that, whatever that is, I mean, it's hard not to transfer some of that onto your kid, you know, like, you know, what water bottle do they have when they leave the house, you know? And I just feel like that, you know, and I try hard not to put my own neuroses onto my kids, but it's, it's fucking unavoidable at some point. So, you know, me being someone who's predisposed to, you know, a substance use disorder or alcoholism or whatever you want to call it, it's like, how can I help my kids be mentally sound and stable as they're in this world looking at all the other things that people are doing and seeing how do you do that you but you you just did it you just did or i was going to say do we

need to go have a session talk about what stroller you didn't get for your kid but i do so just so you know when when have you walked by one of these new york city private schools man oh my it's insane there's 30 strollers and they're all a thousand dollars apiece more it's unbelievable and if you don't have one of those strollers so when how it might my uh grandson was born i start looking and trying to fare out what stroller to get for my for them and I'm like what shore you got jay we just got a new stroller and how much was it this it was a couple hundred dollars is it's enough it's this wasn't it was my wife my wife was surgical about like getting something that was reasonable but but good and it's light as a feather but but like it's just the amount of time that goes into the and then you know my daughter

goes to a public school in in in in New York and there's a private school right across the street and my Every time I'm like, I'm like, are these two lives here? You know, like that's the private school. She will be sent on a track towards success and achievement or the public school, which is just normal, average. Is that what she's going to be? You know, and I don't believe that. But like, it's these two symbols that I'm constantly looking at when I take my fucking six-year-old to school every day.

But isn't the miracle ordinary? Isn't the miracle to be able to sit and read a book by a fireplace? Yeah. But we have a hard time with that because of the strollers and things like that. But that anxiety that you're talking about, parents are feeling that. So while, yes, it is an adult's responsibility to talk about that, right? And start figuring that out. And a lot of our parents, what they get to come to is they realize that nothing else is important but my kid.

So all of that stuff, whatever the strollers, was, whatever the house was, nothing is, can protect me from, nothing is going to make that more important than when you talk to a parent who, you know, saw their kid overdose or realized they're collapsing, they're like, I don't care if you, if you're just, if you're the best mechanic in the world, or you're just happy. Who do I care if you're an attorney or you're happy. You know what I mean? Do I, and this is a question that we ask,

and a lot of times it comes up, like with codependency or Al-Anon parents, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? And I'm going to, can I give you an example? Yeah, yeah. So, because sometimes I want to be right. Sure. Because if I'm right, then I'll be happy,

which isn't true. Because, so I'm talking to a mom. She calls me, and I do, I did a lot of work with, co-dependency and working with parents. A lot of those groups for a long time. And she calls me up and says, hey John, how are you doing?

I said, I'm doing pretty good. I said, how are you doing? And she says, I'm not using the real names. She says, how's Johnny doing? And I took a step. I said, Joan, I was just wondering because I asked, how are you doing, how are you doing? She said, well, how's Johnny doing?

I said, Joan, how are you doing? So we're three steps into this And she says, John, I want to know how Johnny's doing And I said, I heard you And what I'm asking you, Joan, is how are you doing? She says, we're not going to do this. I said, do what? Now she's irritated with me.

Do what? I'm like, you know, she's a mom. She's paying my salary basically, right? I'm into it with her. And she says, she said, how would I know how I'm doing if I don't know how Johnny is doing and I that that's the shaking

that's the core that's the earthquake under your feet for that because now Johnny who's 14 fucking years old is responsible for mom's well-being who is supposed to be the parent who's supposed to be stable because I said to her at that point

so you can't be okay if you don't know how Johnny's doing She said, yeah, because I'm a mom. I said, what if a mom's job, she's still mad at me at this point, what if a mom's job is to have stability and containment so their child can find some equilibrium? Because, and she did not like that. How could I have equilibrium if I don't know how he's doing?

I said, your son's fine. He's doing great. He had an awful night. And she said, what happened last night? I said, it doesn't matter. What happened is he worked through it with his counselor. He's doing better today, and he's going to have a family session with you later. And you're going to get to find out exactly what happened.

I'm not going to tell you because he needs to tell you. But the point is, she had a hard time with that. The point is parents, a lot of times, their stability is mixed up kind of like you said in how our kids doing when what we try to do with our parents and families is if you can find stability, right, and your child can go, ding ding ding ding off the wall and come back to you and find dad has a place of centeredness mom has a place where she's you know what what that stability looks like the kids can find their their way otherwise the kids feel more out of control and more anxious and anybody who's a

substance beauty or a house some of substance abuser in your house or has serious mental health problems we control some of it but when we're controlling it first of all we don't feel comfortable but we get away with more things. Yeah. When I could get my mom, when my mom and dad were fighting, I could do whatever I want. So I love, I mean,

I love that whole vision. Like the vision you just painted for me is powerful. And I, in a lot of ways, have lived it. And I love that you challenged her because a lot of people in this work will remember that they're paying you

and bow down because of that's what's happening here. So why would I pick this fight with this mother who's paying? Like, I can just be nice here. But that's not, that doesn't really always work. So we know, we know there are issues. We know that it's hard to be a parent. We know that it's hard to be a kid. What is the, what is the solution?

I guess my first question is about, okay, so a family, mom and dad, whoever it is, know that their kid needs to go away. There's been a lot of conversation in the world around the idea and it's become more public because I think was it Peres Hilton talked about it and Malika Andrews I think just talked about it, this idea of being 13, 14 years old and living in a home with your mom and dad and all of a sudden you're asleep at 2 o'clock in the morning and your door opens and people are coming to take you away and go to treatment. and they call it gooning. I'm just curious your thoughts on using that technique and if there is ever a place in the world where that technique is one that you approve of. So my mom tried that with me.

I was, and I got away three times. I got in trouble, you know what I mean? And finally they hired an off-duty police officer, off-duty police officer that lied to me to get me to treatment. and lied, and the doors to the psychiatric hospital just locked behind me. I was supposedly just going to get a drug test, right? So I wasn't physically tied up or any of those things.

I think the biggest problem is that there were people, there are people out there that just put a rubber stamp on that gooning's fine, when you kid gets to treatment, that's going to be fine. That, I don't think, is okay. Now, if you have a kid like me who was doing methamphetamine and my mom saw me psychotic, I think you do whatever you have to do to get between you and your kid on drugs. You do anything you have to do that. Some parents will remember this.

That was a commercial by O'Connor from All in the Family. His son died from an overdose, and he did a commercial. And his commercial said, you do whatever you've got to do to get between your kid and drugs. Because you don't want to feel like I feel. So I think there's a, or you find out your kid's suicidal and they're refusing to get help. I think there's a place to intervene. And you can start with an assessment, taking somebody into emergency. There's a lot of things we can do before you get to that place where you're physically intervening.

I think parents sometimes felt helpless. And they thought it doesn't matter how traumatic this is because in the end it's going to be okay. And that is not necessarily true. Does it make it easier if you're working with your kid? And at some point you say, we're just letting you know that we've tried all these things. And the next thing that we're going to have to do is to. We've got to be careful. It's not a threat, too.

It's going to sound like a threat, right? Always going to sound like a threat, even if it's a good thing. And parents say, no, I should never threaten my kid. Wait a minute. You shouldn't, like, if you don't get up in the morning and go to school, then you're not going to get this privilege. Right. So kids will say, my parents hate me, you hate me. I live in prison while they're living on Park Avenue, right?

Because kids are feeling that anxiety. So I think that it's okay. So I'm couching this a little bit. Also, I know where Paris went to treatment. I've seen that program. I would never have sent somebody there. So not only did they use this way, but I think somebody sold, said that this is good. I think it's important for parents. If you're going to, if your kid's going to

go to a treatment center, get off your butt and go see it. If you've got to fly across the country to see the program, to meet the people, to know exactly what their policies are, to know those kinds of things, there is much, there's a less likely chance that they're going to have a bad experience, right? Because sometimes that treatment center may say, this isn't the right place for your kid, but if they're, quote, unquote, gooned there and they're already there, what are you going to do. So I'm essentially like, essentially I don't think that's a good way to go, but there are kids who you're really trying to save their lives. And like when my mom, what she said was, I put my combat boots on. I didn't care if you never talk to me again a day in your

life. I had to be okay with that I had done everything I could possibly do. So I think, and you get parents who are in that place. I don't think that's the first step. And I think there's a knee-jerk reaction to my kid's out of control. I'm going to send them to this program. Then they're going to go to this program. And it's already set up for like 18 months. What we do try to do is, and they used to say this, we're going to do a paronectomy. We're like, oh, no, we're bringing parents back in the room. You want to come to visions? You've got to be here every other week in person. That's a requirement. That is like, that's the, that's the least period of story. Period of story. Somebody says, what are the kind of reasons that kids can't come to your program?

I said the number one thing is parents' commitment. If parents will commit, then we can talk about the clinical stuff because it's just like in therapy, relationship is the biggest, you know, deciding factor in how somebody does, right? Not how many letters somebody has, not how many different treatment protocols they have, but whether they connected with their therapist. Same in treatment for kids. Did their parents show up?

And parents don't have to be perfect. A good friend of mine, you may know, Steve Lee from Cumberland Heights, he, I don't know, he probably didn't coin this and he won't take credit for it, but he said one time, I was going through a really hard time. And he said, you know, John, you can pretend to care, but you can't pretend to show up. And showing up when I say, because kids will say, or my mom's never going to change. My dad's never going to change. And I say, we're going to cheat.

What do you mean? I say, well, they're going to come here, right? Okay. So I have their ass. I have their wallet. Sorry to be crude. Because they're paying for it. We have you.

So we have their body. We have something they love. And they're paying for it. Their heart will follow. And a lot of times their heart's not because they're afraid. Parents have been injured. They've had their own past. Maybe they had to pass with whatever kind of emotional, psychological issues they had.

Maybe they had a parent who, you know, had a suicide attempt or had mental health or was an addict. Maybe they were abused. I mean, in my case, my mom had been abused. So she had a hard time with this whole thing, you know. But when somebody comes together and their heart comes, you see the biggest changes in those parents. And we're privileged because kids start changing quick. There's also like the stigma, right? Like if parents, you use this all the time when you're talking about if my, if my son had cancer, I'm going to do whatever it takes to be as loud as possible to make that happen.

This kind of thing happens in the shadows because we think it's either a moral failing or something's wrong with me, the parent, or something's wrong with my child and I don't want, you know, it's not thought of really as, you know, having some sort of disease or disorder that can really be treated. Yeah, it's a more, it's, we hear about it being a moral failing. So, but this is not new. So one of the first people who talked very openly as a woman about addiction and alcoholism was Marty Mann. And she said, I'm sure, I, there's a video of her getting up and saying there wasn't a video, it was a film because it was a long time ago. But she said, there are four things that are going to keep women from getting help for alcoholism. She said, I'm going to tell you what they are. She said stigma, stigma, stigma, and the number one thing is going to keep them from getting help is stigma.

And it's that thing, that crushing, shaming thing that keeps us from acting and how to, again, that part, who's lied about their kid this week? And that dad going, I did. Well, that's just it, John. I mean, like I, you know, in this world we live in, I go to a lot of funerals and I have a weird relationship with funerals. and being in New York City, I go to a lot of funerals, unfortunately, of folks with a blank check. Whatever it would have cost, and this family at some point in time, I've been to many funerals,

and this is like the thing about addiction or the thing about substance abuse is it's like at some point in time, these families are willing to just give up. And if it was cancer, if it was because they're beat up, and they've been emotional and they've tried every I get it I got but they give up

they stop treating it because they're hopeless and it's really I mean that that is the thing about like stigley the addiction the so what do you get these families

regardless of cost quality of program who you are what you do we're talking about treating teens treating adolescents putting families back together

they're getting them at a time in their life that is so confusing because they're still living under the roof of their parents. Sure. What are you, I guess maybe what is visions do that, you know, is like basic things that all treatment centers should do or what are you guys, what is your thing that you do really well? Because like I need, I need, the thing about this podcast, I need to hear some, I need someone to walk away and say like I got some solution.

Like we're not all fucked. Of course. Of course. So first of all, we're a resource. I don't care who calls, we're going to do our best to help find a resource, whatever, wherever they're at. So family is the first thing. That is absolutely different. Our requirement for family involvement.

Also, we have more, our staff to client ratio is really high. So, like, higher than anybody else's during the day at a 10-bed facility, we have a minimum of 14 staff during the day for 10 kids, more staff than kids. Because there's going to be an individual therapist working with the kid. They're also going to be a family therapist. Four full-time therapists just for the kids. that doesn't include the staff that's on or the chef and the teacher. So having a program like that where those kids are going to get individualized treatment that's actually individualized.

And having full site testing for those kids, that's just part of the program. Because we do find out sometimes underneath there are issues going on that may have been missed. They may have had an IEP or diagnosis when they're like 10 or 11 years old, but it's different, say, when they're 15, 16 years old and how it's affecting them. IEP, break it down. individual educational plan so they go to school they realize their kids having some struggles so they get some testing done but it's different how a child responds at 11 years old than when they're in puberty and all of a sudden they're questioning things like you know who do they

like their sexuality their gender things like that we're also a special program we're a mixed gender program so he says well that's weird pretty sure we live in a mixed gender world that takes more staff to do that, but then we can find out what's going on with the kids better and have... Makes sense. We have a group for parents just for LGBTQ plus those parents who don't know how to even talk about these things. Also having, like being able to treat anxiety disorders.

And having, we're also very specializing that we have special mental health program just for those kids and a separate facility for the kids who have substance abuse and mental health issues, having psychiatrists on staff. and train clinicians that aren't just that... But, John, I can't afford your program. Absolutely. So that's why I said we're a resource. So if you can't...

I can just about find a program for anybody. I love that. And then, so recently we also went out and we didn't go out. So a program called Touchstones that had been around for 27 years was owned by another non-for-profit. They came to us and they said, basically, can you help us keep this alive? because through the management and things like that. So they've been treating kids for 27 years in the city of Orange.

We had to rename it legally. So it's the Arrowhouse. And the Arrowhouse works with insurance. We have contracts like with Aetna, Magellan, Optum, and a few other small places. But we did that to make treatment more accessible, more accessible with a quality of care that was like what we started with when we started vision. That's what Chris and Amanda wanted to do. how do we make this so somebody else could access that sometimes insurance doesn't cover as long we try to make that you know still accessible um but we can usually figure something out and because we get kids from all over

the country you know i can usually you know like what what if somebody calls from you know mississippi is there a program out there maybe not right in mississippi but there might be one in louisiana yeah we're pretty good at that stuff yeah you guys no we all are like in this world i mean melissa our friend is sitting on the couch here she's probably putting people in a treatment as we as we do this podcast you know she's smirking because that's what we do you know we there is it's just i think the thing for me is like you and i work really hard to get those calls because we want everybody who is willing to get help to get the help they they and and the urgency that window that we know is only open for so long right like we know to strike while while the iron is hot um the work you've done in this in this world is

incredible. This or that question to kind of close here, because I'm curious about the root, and we could have talked to you all day, but if you could take one thing, the cell phone, if you could delay the use of cell phone or the use of substances in a kid, what are you, what are you doing? It's both. No, no, no. You can't, you cannot separate those.

Because, like I said, if you read the book, Anxious Generation, I would be sentencing you to one thing or another. Right now what we see with THC and this extract stuff, we see 12-year-olds that have been hitting THC three, four times a day for six, seven months, and they're having psychosis from it. Yeah, that kids shouldn't do that. We're also seeing kids that are literally, they're trying, cutting for the first time

because they're on social media trying to figure that out because they see that on TikTok. It's not a good thing to start when you're 12, 13 years old. It also lays the same groundwork for that addictive, negative coping skill to continue, you know. And I've seen kids at 13 years old with cuts from their, you know, from their forearm to their chest. And you go, at that age, those scars are going to be there for life.

so I have a I'm not find somebody else to answer that question okay and I would be I'd be a fool I didn't ask you quickly um or not so quickly it's fine I mean I think we we got a few minutes it's fine but about boys and the loan so we had Dr. Niobe way on I don't know if you know who she is but she's a professor at NYU she studied boys for 40 years and she basically has come to the conclusion that young boys are actually telling us what they need we're just not listening, which is that they need love and compassion and to be heard and to be seen. Intimacy among boys. Yeah. Intimacy. Yep. So give me your, give me your thoughts on the loneliness,

especially among young boys and what we're seeing there. Loneliness is so pervasive. I think if what she's looking at boys in that alienation that happens. Happens in other ways for everybody, right? For boys. We, some, a lot of times in sports, they find those connections, say with a coach, connection with a coach. That's one of the things, even if the originally the book was reviving Ophelia for girls, it was the same kind of idea for girls being involved in something that is team-based with connection, with expectations, that is, that there's difficulties, there's problem solving, there's like almost injury with recovery challenges, there's repair with the coaches. You didn't do that right, but that doesn't mean you don't get to do it. anymore and that's what I think she's talking about I didn't talk to her specifically and then parents right we have a lot of parents who it is we become uh action like if you do this then that's good

if you do this then that's good so we become and for boys human doings rather than human beings i I am directly connected to what I do rather than who I am and the more we can help kids understand what's important to them and solve some of those things and connect with some of those things, we just don't do a very good job of it. Schools should, I don't know, whatever shoulds are, but I think that they should do a better job finding out what kids' aptitudes are. We don't do what their aptitudes are. They're going to Harvard. They're going to Columbia. They're going here. They're going there. They're going to be on this kind of a team, and I'm going to take them every minute. Horace Mann and the other

private schools literally have schools, their schools open until midnight, and some of them, 24-7 so the kids can have unstructured time together, what she's talking about, time together with friends to interact, have the challenges, not be alone because it is different when everything's structured. Those schools had to do it, I hate to say this, because the parents wouldn't. And if they talk to the parents and talk to you, what are the most precious times in your life? Unstructured silly times with people. Oh, high school, Kyle, yeah. High school, hanging out with somebody, laughing with friends, doing the silly things, playing in the neighborhood.

And we live in a world where everything's structured. First you're going to rugby, then you're going to go play tennis, then you're going to go this, and then you can't do anything because dad's going to go out and play pickleball or whatever it is, because now it's my time, now it's this, now it's structured, so everything's compartmentalized into this thing. That's not life. And so I think that having those times,

and there's a way to support, safe, unstructured time. There's a way to do that, whether that's, I mean, I grew up in a place that had garages or a living room or whatever that is, but even, I think parents should challenge themselves as to why do we structure things the way that we do? And if we think that structuring things is going to bring happiness, we got something else to learn. To me, I don't, I don't think that brings happiness. I think connection is even just us hanging out and talking earlier, you know, and even whatever it is, about difficult things. But having those times together is just pretty special and means the world to me.

Yeah, and I think about times at work when, like, you know, it's 515, it's 5.30, people start to rustle. They start to leave for the day and you gather in this back room where you gather up there and you start to just bullshit. Yeah. And you start to laugh and you start to not have the structure of the work day or we have to get something done or there's something on, you know. Dating's turned into structure, right? Swipe left, swipe. I don't know what. Yeah. That's not my world. People seem to be rejecting that.

Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. I was going to ask you about gambling, too, you know. Well, let me just go to gambling. No, you go from going back to your question, though. Go back. That you didn't. Yes. And there's a secondary part of that, which is 14, and I just love giving case studies.

Like a 14-year-old, young boy doesn't have a cell phone, has not been introduced to drugs, V Vance, Adderall, ADHD. introducing that substance to that young mind? No, don't introduce that substance to that young mind. I know that in Child Mind Institute, the director said if we can't change their outside environment, we should change their internal environment. Well, he can fuck right off.

What if we learned, sorry, what if we learned how to take care of our kids to handle things in a different way? Many of the kids that they say had ADHD, actually had trauma, had an anxiety disorder, when we add those medications to them without good evaluations, it only makes it worse. We're not doing a great job at evaluating and understanding what kids need.

It sets them up for using a chemical to fix what's inside. Are there some kids who will benefit from an amphetamine intervention? Absolutely. But let's talk about what it is. It is an amphetamine intervention, and an amphetamine is a very powerful, psychoactive drug. And people would say, and it's been around for a really long time, do we see the world getting better? I think that us learning how to deal with different things, maybe some of those kids could be, maybe they should have a different type of college plan. Are we just making them

do this so that they can follow the same plan? Does it have to be my plan? Are there not different plans out there in the world? That's so hard. Sorry. No, no, for a parent, for that kid. You see it here? Do you think everybody should be on Adderall? No, no, I don't. I mean, like, but look, here's the thing I'm thinking about is like that kid's struggling he's struggling to stay in school he's acting out you know parents are struggling there's like this chaos like the thing that like the thought of like hey if he takes this medication like maybe we can get through this time in life is probably i understand i'm sensitive to that yeah no no no no totally send to that but a lot of times that if they take this medication the teacher will quit bothering me because they're having difficulty

in class rather than some of these kids might need a different type of education Look, I've taken Adderall. I've taken Vibance. I know how potent that shit is. I mean, there's a reason it's on every college campus because, like, you take it and you're laser folk. I mean, I would love to be able to use it for a week just to get some work done. Yeah.

For me, I couldn't use it for a week, right? And just keep going. No, of course. That's what I mean. But I think, look, there are times when medication interventions are appropriate. The thing we learned, I think, like from antidepressants, when everybody said what this is going to do, it's going to stabilize the level of your serotonin. What did we find out a year and a half ago? That's not what it's doing. We don't even

know for sure what it's doing and why it's helping with depression. When we try to pinpoint what's going on with the brain and things like that, I think it's a dangerous place for us to be. There are other ways a lot of times. We have kids who come in who've been on Adderall and things like that in the treatment program, and we figure out new ways to help them in the learning process in school, help educate their parents if they do this look at how successful they are in our classroom light setting they don't have to just be with a tutor there's ways to do that you know even in the city you got like you know education west they're figuring out or academics west they're figuring out how to work with kids who couldn't make it in a classroom i mean i was one of those kids they include therapy

in school i was one of those kids yeah and guess what i made it you made it i i had i was to this day i can't sit down and really like i can read a book i i can't read a book i But, like, there are certainly times when I sit down and I flipped 20 pages and I have to stop and be like, I don't even know what I just did. I was diagnosed with dyslexia in second grade and they did it later when I was said in seventh grade, right? Hated school, remedial reading. I mean, just school was always a chore for me, always difficult, right? anxiety about school and things like that. Today, I have two master's degrees.

I graduated the first master degree, madden cum laude, and second was summa cum laude. But it took time. Would somebody say, oh, John's a failure? Because at 30 years old, he was just starting his first college degree, even though I had been working in treatment centers at that point for 12 years. You know, it's a different path, and is that okay? I think it's great.

What scares me, though, are the, you know, the many, many people in this country who don't make a lot of money, don't have enough resources. You know, the mom and dad are having to work full time. You know, the kids struggling and they don't have the ability to like take time and really explore what's wrong. How can that help my kid? Oh, no, no, no. If you have kids, you have the time to take time and figure out how to help your kids. You do. You do. You do. But I just mean, like, where do I start? from is a lot harder. It is absolutely a lot harder. I was just talking to a mom the other day

and she says, I'm working full time. This is when I'm going to get to this. When I have time during the week to get on these kinds of things, how can you help? I sent her four different resources, right? And she's, and then she called me back and asked me, okay, so I followed those. This is what I came up with. I go, all right, start there. If you need more help, here's my number. and she's a mom she's a mom who's working dad works late and they're they're trying to figure it out i'm not saying that it's easy well yeah but i mean look it's the same as a as a super wealthy family that has to go to the dinner party or the fundraiser every night and they can't not go to that and so then it makes it harder for them to be a parent everyone's got things that they could say

are taking precedent to when i was 21 years old i was a single dad with two daughters and diapers No mom around. I know what it's like to try to do the struggles, to try to figure out how to get the clothes from the washer to the dryer to onto the child and figure out how to get them to daycare and then school and those kinds of things. So early on, I know the, I'm not insensitive to the challenge.

I'm also the adult and, you know, and there's a lot of people who helped. Look, got a lot of help along the way. But I figured out, I didn't, you know, I figured out how to keep my kids in their own house and do some of those things while I was, you know, I was a counselor and figuring out. So I'm absolutely sensitive. And then, you know, did you have a community? Did you have people around you? Did you have, you know, support or is it just you?

No, no, I had some, I absolutely had some support. My mom lived about two hours away. I had an next door neighbor that would babysit, but I was waking them up in the morning and, you know, figuring out how to do, I'm not good at hairstyles. I could do, I could do fountains. palm trees. A fountain goes straight, a palm tree goes straight up in the air, fountains go off to the side, and I could never braid correctly. But let me tell you something, as a parent, when you have had, when you take the clothes from the washer, they go in the dryer, and until you've experienced this, a red crayon in the dryer.

A red crayon melts in the dryer and gets little dots and things on every piece of clothing that's never coming off. It's wax. And I'm a 21-year-old, man in tears because I'm going to have to send my kids to school with little red dots on their dresses or in dirty clothes. And there's no way I can solve that at six in the morning. Yeah. No, man. I mean, look, there's there's so much we could talk about here. And maybe we'll have to do a round too. I just put gambling. Anything on gambling? Oh, gambling. Yeah. Thank God it's legalized. Thank God is legalized everywhere, you know, because we see what legalizing THC did. I made everything better. No, that gambling is similar from the point that it gives

instant instant instant gratification. It is interesting. So in my two years here in the city at New York Center for Living, I saw more gambling with adolescence, that culture. It was profound and created the same consequences as somebody who was like an addict. They had problems with financially. There were safety issues. They couldn't think right in school. It created the same problems. And so parents, I think, I wouldn't look at this as just an activity, but really it's something that should be managed.

It's part of, because isn't that what really a lot of the games and things that kids are into? It's a little bit of gambling. It's a tick, tick. It's actually a setup. And now with gambling, all I hear on the radio is, I don't know if people know, what radios are anymore, but on the radio, I drive a lot, is, you know, there's commercials for you can bet on anything. Anything. You can bet on what color shoes is that, is the quarterback going to come out in, you know, who's the first, what's the first direction he's going to look

on a play, and you can bet on anything. And that, you know, they try to play that off as making the game more exciting, but I just, I just worry. I mean, I remember we were treating a kid, and during the session he made a bet during the session for gambling I don't know a lot of people who go into a session and actually do drugs

during the session but people would do that so the insidious of gambling and this weird narcissism around gambling because you've got to tell yourself you're smarter you're smarter you have a better way

all the time and there are just so you know there's a there are there is a program Can we tell you the name of it for gambling? Should parents know what the name? No, I mean, there's Algamists.

There's Williams. Yeah, there's a few programs out there just for gambling. Yeah. But it is serious. And adults get, you know, their families get threatened and they go out and do it again. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Vision's Treatment Center, the good thing that we heard from John today is one, he knows his stuff.

And two, if you call them, they're going to work really hard no matter where you are in life to try and get you to the right spot. And, you know, the moral story that I heard today is that we are in challenging times, but there are solutions and there are answers. And a lot of that feels like going back a few steps to like all the things we know work in life, which is like human connection and putting the phone down and just saying no to drugs, I guess. That's great. Thank you guys so much. Thank you, man. Thank you, John. Thank you.