The Zac Clark Show - Who Gets Therapy in America? The Fight for Equal Care | Damian Travier, Executive Director of APF

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

Mental health access isn’t equal, and Damian Travier is working to change that. As the Executive Director of Access Psychology Foundation—a nonprofit dedicated to expanding access to culturally competent mental health care for underserved communities—Damian is on a mission to close the gap for young people of color by providing free training for educators, funding therapy for those in need, and breaking down systemic barriers. In this powerful conversation, he and Zac dive into the reality of mental health stigma in marginalized communities, the critical role of representation in treatment, and why addressing mental health early can change lives. If you care about mental health advocacy, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.For more information about Access Psychology Foundation, please click here: https://www.access-psychology.org/Connect with Zachttps://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclarkhttps://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release:[phone]releaserecovery.com@releaserecovery

All right. Welcome back to the Zach Clark Show. I'm really excited about today's guest because I think today's conversation is one that, you know, our country needs to hear. I think the behavioral health care field needs to hear it. I think that I don't think I know that I have a lot of questions for today's guest, just about my personal experience. So is it Trevier? Treviere. Travier. Okay, Damien Traviere is the executive director of Access Psychology Foundation. He's dedicated his entire career to promoting mental health awareness for young people of color, forging strategic partnerships and building a strong foundation of support in marginalized communities, something that is more important than ever. Damian, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. We were talking a little bit before we started rolling here. And, you know, I have a very vivid memory 13 and a half years ago when I was in treatment.

I went to a place out in Pennsylvania. My parents found it. I grew up in a primarily white town in South Jersey. That's just the way it was. And I remember having a realization probably about halfway through treatment. I was there about four and a half years or four and a half months. I'm sorry. Very, very few black people.

Sure. Sure. And I think that's part of the work that you're doing. 100%. So can we start there? Yeah. Like the why, the how? Like what, I think one of the things that you said to me before too is like, let's start there.

Let's start there. Yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, thanks again for having me. I really appreciate it. It's a great opportunity for me to talk about the great work that we do at the Access Psychology Foundation and why I do the work that I do. You know, I grew up in a single-parent home in the Martin Luther King Jr. housing projects here in New York. And my mother, you know, begged, borrowed, and stole so that I can get the best educational opportunities.

So she got me into this private school called LaSalle Institute. Obviously, I had to have the grades, but we didn't have the money, so she did what she had to do. And I was one of two black kids in the entire school, right? What years is this? This is the late 80s, mid-80s to late 80s through. I graduated in 93 from high school. So this would have been 85 or so. And, you know, all the way through graduation.

And I realized very quickly that there was a big gap, you know, the halves and a half-noughts. That's, you know, you'd turn me here, but it's very, very real. And I would take the public bus, the city bus, up to LaSalle, cross town, and walk up up this big hill. from where the bus would drop you off to the school. And while I'm walking up that hill, you know, my classmates would be getting dropped off in their outies and their Mercedes-Benz. And then I got the ability and the privilege, if you will, to spend time with some of these,

some of my white classmates who I got close with because of basketball, I'm a big athlete, basketball and football and all that. Hooper. Hoop, big time. Played in high school? Play? I did play in high school. Yeah, yeah, but I'm short. So, you know, I only went so far. I had to lean on my mind instead of my athletic ability after a little while. It's probably a smart move. I think so. I think so. So getting to hang out and getting exposed to the life of my classmates who were traveling, you know, around the world, going skiing, going, you know, away during spring break for the week when we had spring break and I would just go home.

and you know hang out in the neighborhood but also the access that they had to care for any little ailment that came across their you know came through their their house whether it was mental health whether it was physical health whether it was you know with the financial they had a resource to address those things and i realized very very quickly that there was a real gap um between the you know there's an opportunity gap there's a wealth gap um in the this country, and there is a health gap. So I dedicated my life, and it sounds weird, but as a, you know, high school, senior, college freshman, I decided to dedicate my life to closing that gap as much as I possibly could,

whatever that gap was. Because what was the feeling for you? I guess you said you were one of two black people at the school, or in your grade? In your grade, yes. And so, like, what type of responsibility did you feel? Yeah, so I was wearing a uniform to. school, Zach, and I would come home and get off and get my bus dropped off in the Martin Luther King Junior Housing Projects with my uniform out. All my friends are sitting there with the newest

Jordans and the sweatshirts and all that stuff. And I felt, I felt different at first. But then what happens in these black and brown communities is that they champion someone who they think is going to make it out. So I started getting a lot of support. They started saying, you know, we got to protect Damien. We got to watch out for him because he's going to get out of. here. And that, Zach, is what gave me this responsibility to my community. I was one of the few people who were seeing the things that I was able to see, who was traveling, who was doing these internships and things. So I was living both lives, and I made it my life's goal to not just introduce this world to my friends and colleagues and the people in my neighborhood,

but make them feel comfortable walking into that world, right? And that's two different things, Making them feel like they deserve and belong, but also introducing, right, and exposure. Are you still, like, those, the folks that you went to high school with, right? Like, the white kids, do you still maintain any relationships with them to this day? A few. A few. A few. And they're a partner at a law firm.

I started a tech company, moved out west. So they're all doing great, you know. But more importantly, I've maintained a relationship with those guys at that were there when I got off the bus every day. I'm still very close with those guys. And I've, you know, I'm doing well, you know, and, and, and, and, and, and, uh, I still make it my responsibility to pull those folks in, um, to my experiences and, and, and, and to really, uh, I, um, I'll let them absorb the things that I'm able to see and, uh, and, and, and,

and, and, and, and did you, so when you're in high school and you're kind of, I mean, it sounds like you were, you, you know, your, your, your mother did this great. act and got you into a school where you were going to be able to push the envelope on some of the things that you're doing today, right? That was the first step towards really building the career. Like, did you have personal experience? Did you remember, like, when did you first know what mental health was? Did you feel anxiety? Did you feel depression? Did you know what was going on? My mother, um, suffered from depression. Okay. And she had been seeing a therapist since I knew what the word was.

And because we didn't have money or means, she got whatever therapist was available to her through our social services, right? Which, as you can imagine, may not be the most qualified, most equipped mental health services that you could get access to. So my mother, God bless her, the depression manifests in real time for me you know there would be days when i come home and the house

was torn up um from an episode i had glasses thrown at me across the room for you know not making the bed or from something that didn't require that kind of response um there was a lot of tears there was there was a lot of yelling and, and, um, this is your mom. This is my mother. So it's polarizing, right? She's giving you this opportunity, but at the same time she's suffering. Right. She's suffering.

But on the flip side, and let me be very clear, I'm the one of the most amazing mother in all of the world because I know she was going through this, dealing with some trauma that she experienced as a, as a young person herself, um, trying to deal with this as an adult, raising two kids. I have a younger brother who's now, again, because of the wherewithal. of my mother is a doctor in Brooklyn. Amazing. And I'm running an organization.

So you're one of two? Say again? You're one of two? Is that you? One of two, yes. Yes, the two of us. So I understood the challenges and dynamics of the mental health space from an early age, whether I wanted to or not.

And again, I want to just say one more time that my mother was absolutely phenomenal and amazing because she was going through these things. suffering and dealing and trying to manage while raising two black boys in the projects in low-income environment with all those things that that all the things that come along with that right so it was a challenge and it was something that we had to deal with and something that I had to recognize from an early age right okay and and so you know what we know is is there Those childhood memories, there's childhood experiences, really form who we are.

I just went away. It's funny, I'm thinking about you, and I'm thinking about the way that I grew up. And, you know, I just did a week-long kind of intensive where I showed up to this place in Tennessee. And, you know, I was like, I'm not going to talk about my mom and dad because my mom and dad are amazing. Sure. You know, and like, what do you end up talking about?

You end up talking about your childhood. And, like, that one time I didn't get the hug, you know? That's right. That's right. That's right. It stays there. It stays there. And as men, we struggle to say that out loud.

Absolutely. It's tough to be vulnerable. And especially black and brown men. Well, that's where I want to go with this. Because there is this, this, this, you have to put on this metal, this armor, just to kind of survive every day. There's daily trauma just being a personal color in this country. And so it's that much more important and difficult for the black and brown community.

And I want to just sort of close a loop on what I was saying around that opportunity. gap, if you don't mind Zach, realizing that there was this gap, right, it was across sectors, education, health, you know, whatever it may be, there was this, this real gap. And as I went through my professional career, I realized that there was a gap in sort of how we address mental health, right? And I prefer my role where I am at now as the executive Director of the Access Psychology Foundation, I was chief program officer for Jackie Robinson Foundation. And in that role, we supported hundreds and thousands of high-achieving black and brown kids from around the country, right? Help them get to college, get through college,

and then help them with their professional advancement sort of post-college. I started a leadership development conference, right, a few years into my tenure at Jackie Robinson Foundation, and that conference had different sort of tracks. finance, home ownership, money management, and I did one around mental health. Unbeknownst to me, it opened the floodgates to an entire community that was struggling in silence, right? We had a couple of panelists, some clinical psychologists, some social workers, and some sort of prominent executives who were sort of really found mental health is very important to them.

after that first conference there were 50 kids standing in front of me who wanted to talk more right kids came out to me said they never came out to anybody because they didn't have anybody to come

to do it with kids who said that their their religion forces them to not sort of appreciate mental health or puts them away from sort of mindfulness and mental health things of that nature

people who were struggling with imposter syndrome and they were one of a few black kids at Harvard or wherever they were, and they were struggling with that. Did you ever have any of that or no? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely.

So I realized very quickly that something was going on here, and I had to provide a mechanism for these young black and brown folks to address their mental health. And we began a whole curriculum at my time at Jackie Robinson Foundation to begin to address that mental health. And it became the most engaged, exciting, attended sort of resource initiative that we ever created at that organization and when was this was this before COVID or was this is before COVID okay this is before COVID and um during COVID is when I got

tapped um to think about this opportunity where I'm at now at Access Psychology Foundation and run this organization and I never would have even thought about it if not for the work we did around mental health at the Jackie Robinson Foundation because I realized it was essential. It was the through line to all the ailments, all the things that we're dealing with in these marginalized populations. There's a through line and it's mental health.

And if you're able to address it in some way, it gives you the tools and the foundation to address those other things, those relationship issues, those employment issues, those family issues. It's the through line. And now I'm dedicated to ensuring that

marginalized communities black brown LGBTQ plus rural white um whatever it may be have access to mental health resources because it is it is the answer it is the difference yeah no i'm i'm i'm with you and you know it's what it's what a lot of times makes my story confusing to me at times yeah is because i was given this amazing opportunity by my family to go away and every step along the way like it was just supported and there was no question about it And, you know, coming out on the other side of that, I started working in behavioral health care and moved to New York City and, you know, found myself in a position where, you know, for lack of a better word, I was helping rich people, you know, I was helping people that could afford to pay the money to get the care that they needed. And they had a family behind them. And then one day I woke up, I think, in like 2019. And it was right before COVID. And I said, we need to cast a wider net. And that was kind of the birth of my foundation, which, we raise money and we write checks for people from the communities that you just mentioned to to go get treatment right to go get treatment and I was talking to you a little bit about some

work we were doing down in Maryland there's a treatment center down there called Ashley Addiction Treatment Center and they were one of the first organizations to come to us and say look like we're seeing all this stuff take place in inner city Baltimore like we're right here and we can't get these people to come yeah you can't get people from the black and brown community to come even access our care so we swooped in and we said we'll write a grant 125 150,000 like whatever it is they matched it right so now we have this chunk of cash to really go into those communities and treat people and then what we found out is and this is where I'm interested to there's a reason for this story once we started gaining some traction right

so we were getting some folks we were getting black men black women into treatment sure They were showing up, and they were like, this is cool. This is really nice. It's on the Chesapeake. The clinicians seem cool, but these people don't look like me. So why would I stay here? And so they have this amazing opportunity, but for them, it's like, yeah, I'm good. Yeah.

That is a very real thing. That's actually one of the building blocks of the Access Psychology Foundation is to not just provide access and resources. but to have those resources and those interventions delivered by people that look like you, right? And there's a couple of reasons why. One, it's difficult for black and brown people to be vulnerable in front of white folks or majority culture because we're always othered

and we're always seemingly... Say that again, it's difficult for... Black and brown folks to be vulnerable in front of white folks many times is because historically, and daily, we're othered. We are looked at as the other thing, right? We are followed in the store. We are talked down to in the dentist's office.

We are spoken, we are given a negative energy by, you know, the guy behind the counter in whatever story walk into. And there is this, obviously, distrust between institutions, right, of power in this country. So it's difficult many times for black and violent folks to be vulnerable in this way, in the way around mental health. That's one thing if you sprained your ankle, right? We're talking about your deep darkest pains and family trauma and maybe some things that are embarrassing, right, that you don't want to share with people. To do that in front of a white person could be very, very difficult, right?

In addition to that... Because of the assumption that I don't know. Because of the assumption that you don't know is because there's been always a power dynamic. I feel like you're always looking at, me with some kind of other intention right um which is what can i dig into that please what's that intention that that is baked into not your mind yeah yeah a black man talking to a white man and why he might be resistant well why are you doing this right why are you why are you why you care about me from my history you don't care about me so why are you doing this now why should i trust you

Zach. You seem like a cool guy. But I've seen this play out before. Right. So there's this inherent mistrust. And it's been, it's been born from the beginning of time in this country, right? Not to get too deep. No, I'm with it. Look, my whole thing here in this conversation, and I'm just going to be real for a second, because I have amazing stats and questions that are prepared. But it's like, it's like, at my, at my most quiet, moment. I just want to be helpful. Yeah. I want to be helpful to all. Yeah. And I get scared. Yeah. You know, is it DEI? Is it not DEI? Is it black and brown? Is it people of color? How do like, so then I get, I clam up. Of course. Because it's like, fuck man, I'm trying to help. But like if I take this step

forward and then what comes next? White Savior. And so it's like this. Sure. And that's why I want to have conversations with guys like you because I, not just for me, but for, for all of us like why why can't we all just get along you know it's real like that but there's all these fault lines that exist man and a lot of this stuff is not it's not done in a way that is um strategic you know those those people that were coming to that treatment center in chesapeake bay were not going you know what i'm not i don't it's it's almost like a feeling it's almost like uh and it's hard to kind of break through those generational feelings those generational um points of view and perspectives. So let me ask you, is the solution in that instance to build

treatment centers that are run by black people so that black people can go get treatment there, or is the solution, and this is just your opinion, to have better representation from the black and brown community working at that treatment program so that they can help integrate that person into the community? Like what is the... I think it's more of the latter, right? I think it's, I don't, you know, um, the most successful show, social programs that we've seen over time are those that incorporate the community into the process, right? So when you go and you want to bring AIDS testing to Haiti, what you do is you train Haitian community organizers to go into the Haitian, into the neighborhoods, right?

When you want to bring mental health to black and brown kids in the Yonkers or Bronx or or in Baltimore, it's important to have faces that look like them, that can, that they believe they have a shared lived experience, that there's a level of trust, right? Because again, we're asking people to be absolutely vulnerable and to do that in a place where they don't feel comfortable or there's no one that looks like them or they're on Chesapeake Bay and they're used to, you know, concrete. That's a difficult, that's a difficult ask for some people. people even if it's even if it's to their own detriment even if there's something right in front of them that could benefit them i need to know that it's coming from a place of love and care

and trust um and sometimes that's difficult yeah i mean i think a lot of what we're talking about too is just like asking for help is scary it is man no matter where you are who you're with Trust is scary, right? So, like, to talk to a stranger, to talk to someone that, you know, you already have ideas about how they're going to receive the information you're about to tell them, whether they look like you or not. I mean, like, you know, I had to get comfortable early on when I was, you know, coming off a heroin addiction and everything else that was going on in my life.

Like, I had to get comfortable trusting people. Yeah. that I didn't know to hold space with some of the stuff that I thought I would never tell anyone Now was that difficult? Yeah

Of course Yeah Yeah Yeah But once it's almost like The other side of Is once I started doing it And I realized that

Nothing happened Yeah That it was okay That I actually was Like Fine Yeah That they didn't judge me

For sure It got easier and easier And that's why today I'm just like an open book. It's like I'll tell someone on the street. Absolutely. It's that first step for sure. It's that first step for sure. But I need you, Zach, not to not try again because what happened in Baltimore didn't

work the work out in the way that you would have liked it to be. I need you to really like because not a lot of, you know, a lot of folks like you out there. And someone who gets it who's willing to put their name and their resources, and really try to do it in the right way and for the right reasons. So I need you, I implore you to don't quit on that desire. I mean, we know the numbers and that's why. I mean, look, I'm reading here 30 rates of suicide among black people. And this is before the pandemic increased 30% from 2014 to 2019.

That's right. You know, like only 10% of black adults receive mental health treatment compared to 18% of white adults. I mean, both those numbers are scary, to be honest with you. But, you know. A big reason behind that is, again, we talked about this comfortability and this vulnerability. 5% of clinical psychologists out there are African-American. 7% are Hispanic-American.

So when you are, let's say there's all these barriers to your mental health sort of journey. Let's say you're a single mom in the Bronx and you want to get your teenage daughter some therapy. Right? First, there's a cost issue. It's expensive as hell. Most insurance is if they cover something, it's three sessions with somebody that's not really talented or can give you the best care. But let's say you get over the cost barrier, right? Then you want to find someone who looks like you. You really want to find somebody who has a shared lived experience. So you're looking around for a therapist who's black or Hispanic. That's really difficult. But let's say, you find that so you got you got over the cost you got over the finding a therapist that has a shared lived experience that can kind of give you culturally competent care right then the next thing is time when can I I want you I want to see this person once well I have to work I have to work every day and I take the train home and when I get home on 7 o'clock I had to make dinner for your three other siblings um there's just a cycle of barriers to marginalized communities to marginalized communities

accessing this kind of care and we have to figure out how to eliminate these barriers, which is what we're trying to do at Access Psychology Foundation. We're giving you the money. We're trying to support clinicians of color, emerging clinics of color, who can then go out there and do the work

and we're trying to be as flexible as we can with time. And one of the things, one of the biggest things that we do, Zach, is we go into schools, school districts, community organizations that work with hundreds and thousands, of young people of color already, right?

And we try to, and we don't try to, we do, we go into these schools and these institutions and we train the staff in these mental health interventions so they can then disseminate it to the kids and families that they work with, right? So we have this multiplier effect where we're training a staff of 70 teachers, school counselors, school social workers, who then go into the school community and implement it into curriculum, higher staff that has the ability to address these issues on the ground level before it's elevated to a, you know, something, something more, who get buy-in from school leadership and organization leadership to say this is important. This is essential to the well-being of my school

community. And we do all that at no cost. Right. So I think the great end, one last thing is we're trying to bring in the people who come and do this training to do this work to be, a diverse team of clinicians, black, Hispanic, white, Asian, whatever it may be, again, that most likely will mirror the diversity of the school or organization that we're working with. It's important to try

that mom in the Bronx, that's one family, and God bless them and we will do everything we can to support that family. But we'll go into a school district or a YWCA or a Boys and Girls Club, which we have, and we're able to impact thousands

of kids through that one relationship, it's a win-win. And another sort of unintentional effect, if you will, is the training that we give to these teachers and these school counselors and these school administrators that are then tasked with disseminating it to the school, to the kids, they're also bringing it home with them. They're bringing that training home.

We talk about emotion regulation. We talk about mindfulness, right? We talk about dialectical behavior, which is the idea that two things can be true, right? A kid can be very, very upset and disruptive in class. And the teacher can say, hey, I recognize that you are upset and something's going on with you, but I also need you to respect and respect your fellow class base by not disrupting this class. So we can address both issues, right? So these are things that we bring to the masses,

and we believe this theory of change is really going to change the face of mental health for young people of color. I really believe that. And I'm trying to get it out to as many schools and school districts and community organizations around the country as we can. Yeah, I mean, that's part of my,

whenever people ask me about whether it's substance abuse or mental health or how do we make changes, we got to get them young. Like, we got to get them young. And I was reading a little, like, I was reading a little bit about you prior to obviously talking to you. I did some homework. And I started to think about the communities that I feel like do a good job with what we are talking about, which is where you see some unity with, with black and white people. Absolutely.

And so I think about one is a community I'm a part of, which is the recovery community. And so when I walk into these meetings that I go to, I step into those doors, and there's a, there's a common denominator amongst everyone in that room, which is we're there to be helpful, we're there to stay sober, and we're going to all come together in that spirit. So really, like race and religion, all that stuff gets left at the door, and it's the most beautiful thing, and it changed the way I saw the world, because as I mentioned, I grew up in this little one square mile, white Angles, Saxon, Protestant, Texas. where it's like, it was just the life that was presented to me. I can't change that shit. Then I went to a college. Then I went to a college. Same shit.

Yeah. Then I go on this, and at 27, I'm dropped into New York City. I'm like, holy shit, there's a whole other world out here. And then the second community is the one where you're doing a lot of work, which is sports. Yeah. And that's where, you know, at a young age, like I see my nephew. He's out of school down in D.C. And it makes me laugh because I see.

see pictures of him and his friends and it's diverse you know it's because they're playing ball they're hooping whatever and it's he's going to be raised to be such a beautiful example of the way this can all go that's exactly with his friends that's exactly right and so where do you i mean i know you're doing a lot in that like with youth sports how important is that like yeah it's so important again i talk about we talk about this whole notion of me going into these schools and school districts in community organizations, and I'm willing to reasons why is because the kids are already there. We don't have to find them. They're there.

And that's true for sports, right? That's where the kids are already. And they're already, just by osmosis, right, they're not getting a booklet. They're learning these life lessons around teamwork, around conflict resolution, right? Around leadership, around following. And what a perfect place to deliver these mental health sort of foundational tools, right? So we do go into these community organizations that work with, let me tell you a great story. One of the most renowned swim teams is the Mount Kisco Boys and Girls Club swim team.

This is Mount Kisco, New York, and Westchester. And they have a swim instructor that's been there for doing 60 years. They win national contests all over the country. And folks who don't know Mount Kisco, it's a, it's an upper middle class neighborhood in Westchester, outside of New York City. But they also, being a Boys and Girls Club, they have a large contingent of black and brown kids that go there.

So any black and brown kid that sort of peppered around Westchester might go to that particular Boys and Girls Club and Mount Kisco. And we did a training for the Boys and Girl Club gave them a $50,000 grant to bring in training around evidence-based DBT Dialectual Behavioral Therapy. And what our trainings are, Zach, is very unique

in that we go in there for four or five days and do your traditional training but we also stayed with the organization for two years. And we go back monthly. And you're working with the kids or the staff? We're working with the staff. Got it. We go back monthly to ensure that they are implementing the training to fidelity

to help them sort of enculcate or train on new staff that might have come since we did our original training. But the swim team, again, renowned, has very wealthy, white kids and super poor Hispanic kids coming together and the training that we did for the swim the swim instructors the response we got from them was so incredible because they said you are putting names and techniques to these kind of interventions that we've already been doing or trying to figure out how to do better and these things really make a big difference in bringing together these very different communities for a shared goal right so

to be able to work with a swim team that then affects these kids is a really big deal for me. I'm someone who came up in sports, and I'm not sure if you can get many more life lessons than you get through your experiences with working in sports organizations, sports communities as a young person. So it's important for us to meet the kids where they are, and that's how we're working with those kind of institutions and organizations. So I love that. and it makes me smile but then I go one step further and I think about

some of the work you've done it I mean I know you've done work with historically black colleges and universities I know that you've represented the White House and some of that work you're doing this at the highest level and so I get that the Mount Kiscoe Boys and Girls Club can have a story like the one you just told

but can we can we zoom out a little bit and say what about the country like what about the issues like how do we make greater change in this issue or is it just that like we have to start at the community level level and hope that this thing kind of spreads yeah which is that's the that's the reason why um we're doing work at the school district level and the community or ncbo level because we're trying to make sure that we're casting a wise that is possible um i am going to be busting my ass to go around this country and partner with school districts all around the country to deliver

this kind of mental health resources and interventions. And I believe doing it at that level where we can impact, you know, we did a program with democracy prep public schools here in New York. It's a charter school network here in New York City. They have, I want to say, 12 different schools in Harlem in the Bronx. And we did a program, we did a training. We gave them a large grant and brought in our clinical psychology training team, which is an amazing team. And through that relationship, we're able to affect, I think it's 6,000 black and brown kids

in Harlem and the Bronx. And if we can replicate that kind of activity, that kind of engagement across the country, I think we're going to be all the better for it. Like you said at the beginning of our Conversations Act, if we can bring these ideas, lessons, resources, perspectives to young people man they're going to be

so much better equipped to deal with all the bullshit that comes with living in this world right now living in this existence right and I'm really excited for that opportunity to do that how often do you kind of swing between like mad right and motivated right because there's got to be frustration in your work you have to run into roadblocks you

I'm sure you've experienced some of the stuff we've talked about in your work like people not giving you the time of day like save your hot air for someone else a thousand percent man and and i when i really get mad is when i hear these stories of children and families who are struggling who are who are dying to get some kind of resource some kind of service some kind of someone who gives a shit about them and they run into the wall um and i hear it all the time because people will come to me applying for an opportunity and they tell me about their experiences right um and i and it and it infuriates me to hear the some of the things that these people

have gone through right um and motivates me that that that anger turns into motivation to make sure that no other family has to go through the kind of things that i've heard some of these people go through you know some things that i've gone through man you know so um yeah motivation is you ever like do you ever do you ever feel like i mean we all feel hopeless and helpless at times in our work right there's times there's moments of frustration and you know i think that was part of like i share with you the conversation i have with the sarah and jay the two producers before this like i was i was feeling scared i was feeling fearful i was feeling like is this conversation can actually do anything yeah you know yeah like are people like and that's where

i get mad and then sad um and i know the answer is to keep going and keep pushing forward and that's the fabric of who I am. You've got to find the partners that align with your approach, right? There's always going to be a roadblock and a barrier, and it's up to you to determine how you want to go around it, a bus through it, and with what kind of grace you want to do that with. The people on the other side that are trying to help, sometimes they don't know what they don't know man

and and it's and it's I see it all the time with younger people and there's a lot of frustration there sometimes like man if you would just just and it's that's not that's not the answer right it's kind of allowing people to see for themselves what's possible and let them determine if they want to go that way

and you being there to help them along that path yeah I mean there's there's shit that I think about in the spirit of like saying it out loud and asking for help like i'm going to ask you for help yeah i please you know i'm a white business owner yeah in new york city and we we do we work hard like you go on a website i think you'd say okay like there's they're doing they're doing a good job right there's there's um but where i get scared and talking to other folks who run businesses are not scared

it's just we're running an interview process i got a white candidate and i got a black candidate and at the end of the day we decide the white candidate is just more qualified they're going to be the better there's a fear there in making that decision because of what

we might experience from the black person saying what they can say right? Like there's this this was a a hire that was made without the right intention

yeah and i want to respond to that in a way that that that feels good to everyone right like i want to like do i do i do man i do and vice versa you know like and vice versa there's two things to that one someone saying oh you're just making a DEI hire like no that's bullshit that's bullshit i can't stand it um two things one i want to go back to sort of that being scared sort of notion of being scared which is first of all i'm glad that you are because some people don't give a shit okay right And they just like, I'm going to hire out as a white person, we're qualified or not, and I don't care, right? I love that you care, right? That's important, right?

The founder of my organization, the Access Psychology Foundation, his name is Dr. Alec Miller, world-renowned clinical psychologist, one of the leading experts in DBT, I'm his partner. I'm familiar with his work, yeah. Dr. Loudam, again, a world-renowned leader in CBT, started this organization because they do all the things. things that we talk about at access. They provide training. They provide individual therapy. They do parent groups. There's research arm. And his clientele, because they don't take insurance at his private practice, is wealthy. So he wanted to be able to bring all these. Yeah, he works with our residents that live in our houses up in Westchester. Yes, yes. That's how I am familiar with his work. Absolutely. So knowing that the work that

he does in his private practice with Dr. Lottom again is works and can make a difference in the lives of people from all walks of life. He started this organization, this nonprofit access psychology foundation to bring this work to the masses, to black and brown communities. When he and I meet in our one-on-ones when we're talking about the organization, I tell him to be vulnerable, to feel free to ask the questions that he may be scared to ask or those trip wires that he may be scared the trip over in public. So we're able to have those conversations and we're able to have those very real conversations around race and religion and politics and all those things, right?

Well, I would rather know the answer than make the mistake. Sure, sure. And that's what gives me the strength to ask the question or just tell you what goes through my mind. Yeah, yeah. And I would say to you, when you talk about a scenario where you're interviewing a black and a white candidate, my question would be, did you have another person of color with you to give you perspective when you're evaluating these candidates? And that's the thing that a lot of people don't, you know, they come with the best intentions, but sometimes you are inherently, just by nature of living in this country and this world, have your own prejudices, your own sort of unspoken perspectives. even aware of it you know that you're not even aware of and we all do and we all do and that's

that's just the way life is and that's fair or not that's just that's the way it is and and and when you're exposed to more and more perspectives and people from different ideas and in points of view more naturally you kind of see those things in real time when you're dealing with other people whether it's candidates for a job or an uber driver where do you think we're going with all this stuff like for you someone who you said like We launched at the beginning, and you kind of said, like, coming out of the womb, this was my life work. You know, like, you knew, like, your mother put you in this position. For sure, for sure.

And you had this chip, you know, for lack of a bit, like chip on your shoulder. Absolutely. You know, like, and you've carried that into this beautiful career where you've clearly done amazing work and made progress. But where do you, in five years, like, in terms of some of the things we've talked about, right? like diversity within the behavioral health care field right like providing care and and the ability for people from the communities you grew up in to feel comfortable going and asking for help yeah um like where do you see this thing going what do what do we do how to me and you you know like what what are some of the answers there's a couple of things one i want to bring the

work we do at access psychology foundation national right now we are almost regional because we are three years old. We just started a couple of years ago. We've already had some amazing impact. We've worked with Austin School District, Hawthorne School District in Westchester, Boys and Girls Club, as I mentioned, Democracy Prep Public Schools here in the Bronx, Mott Hall, Esperanza Prep in Harlem. I want to bring this work across the country. I'm already in conversations with people in California, in Portland, in Las Vegas, in Texas, in Virginia to bring this work to more school districts across the country and more CBOs, community-based organizations

across the country. That's one thing. Just expanding our reach is going to be very important, right? The other thing is advocacy. We are right now, not to be crass, this is a hot button time right now for mental health space.

And I want to leverage it as much as possible. So the biggest thing right now, before the cost, before finding a person of color, before having the time, is the stigma, Zach, is that there's still a large portion of our population who doesn't appreciate the value of addressing their mental health issues, don't know where to go, and I want to go around this country, and I want voices like yours to help me spread the word that mental health is important from the very, very early ages of your life, right? Let's introduce it in elementary school. Let's get to the point where we're talking about mental health like physical health, right? You have a sprained ankle, you go to the doctor, you go to care right away. We need to be doing the same thing around mental health. You're dealing with some anxiety, some emotional issue, something that manifests in real time. Let's address it. Most often we don't. So I need to go around this country and get the word out. I need to go around

the country and tell all the young people that I can that this is important. I need to think about it right now. Black and brown people, a lot of times you talk about these therapies, cognitive behavioral therapy, dialectal behavior therapy, all the different modalities. It's because of a trauma you experience trauma in your life right there's a suicide in your family or or or something happens a death right and I suggest that black and brown people in this country have a daily trauma as soon as they walk out the door every day they're dealing with something something that attacks your character attacks your being attacks your humanity and it's hard to deal with that it's hard to just go through life and not address that in some way so um one of the things that

Well, I'll never know what that feels like. For sure, for sure. Period. For sure. But you can be an ally, and you are. You're ally in this space. I've watched a number of conversations, people you brought on here, and I think what you're doing with this platform and opening these conversations is absolutely amazing.

And I love that it's not just academics with their white coats on or whatever it may be. If people from all walks to life and you need to keep doing this, Zach, because you're bringing this message to people who sometimes don't even know they need to hear it. right or don't know where to find this message and they might just stumble upon it in some way um so keep doing what you're doing and i'm going to keep doing what i'm doing and we're going to make a difference it's we're going to move the needle right we're going to keep training more schools and more community organizations we're going to keep affecting more young people and we're going to keep the message we're going to keep the message about the importance of mental health care yeah in the country no i appreciate that i mean it's selfishly this was really um helpful for me you know the opportunity to sit here and ask some questions that quite frankly are like rattling around in my mind i do believe obviously in change right like i believe that change is possible and i believe that you're right like if one person hears this conversation that doesn't even realize that they need to hear it um you know they might go out and start to be allies and advocates and and and

and folks that kind of like, you know, lift up, lift up our work. And, you know, I love the fact that you want to take this thing national. How do people find you? How are you raising money? Like, where, like, if someone listens and they want to get involved, like, how do they do that? And, you know, that's the big thing, man. We need, we're a nonprofit. So we take contributions from individuals who care about the work we're doing.

we're looking to raise more money from foundations who believe in the importance of mental health care and expanding access to mental health care. Yeah, some of our money might be better spent rather than paying for one person to go get treatment. Like for you, if you're getting it, if you're on the education and the prevention and your training, I mean, that a lot of ways is more impactful, right? And that's something that we talked about quite a bit, even at our board level, right? We've been doing all this work where we're doing individual therapy. But the impact is coming from the work we're doing at schools with school, school districts, school districts where, you know, you've got 12 schools inside of a school district that we're impacting, right?

We go into these training, and again, it's not just a workshop and a PowerPoint. We're with these institutions and these schools for two years, right? We're able to develop real relationships that really help them move the needle with respect to their mental health interventions and resources. We've helped districts and organizations hire on-site mental health staff. We've helped them with very acute and unique situations that they may not have been in. able to deal with on their own. And we're doing this for no cost of the schools or the community organizations. So we're trying to raise money from individuals with a lot of individuals who've supported the work that we do and we need to find more. We're trying to raise money from

foundations, but you know that can take 18 months to get a $5,000 grant. And we're trying now to knock on the doors of corporations who have mental health and health care as a part of their giving strategy. There's companies out there who give to veterans or education and there's companies who care about mental health. So we're trying to find companies out there who care about and understand the importance of expanding access to mental health resources.

Yeah, I mean, you were ahead of your time, and I think about, you know, when I open my phone up, and Jay and Sarah and I talk about this a lot, there's a ton of people out there talking about mental health, right? It's a very... It's a hot topic.

It's a hot topic. It's easy for people to latch on to, and I love it, because it means that people are opening their eyes. But behind that, there's not a lot of solution, right? Like someone wants to get on and talk about their mental health. And if we're all just continuing to talk about the problem and there's no discussion around the solution, then I fear for this kind of toilet bowl cycle of we're just going to keep, you know, swarling and swirling and swirling. So to know that you

exist, certainly to help your word get out there is huge. If people want to help us and learn more about who we are. The website is access dash psychology.org. Very quick, very easy in there. People can reach out to me anytime they want to. We're also on all the social medias. We have to be, you know, Angelique and Cherise and her team, they really put together a great sort of digital presence for us.

So we're out there on socials as well. Again, access dash psychology. It could be one clip, bro. That's it. It could be one fucking clip. That's it. And that's like, and that's, that's, that's it. it yeah that that's really it man that that's really it and um anything else you want to say anything

else you feel like you miss anything you know like jara anyone what are you but my question is you have a kid sitting you know listening to you know doesn't know anything about therapy mental health what is the one thing that you want that kid to understand or open his mind to about mental health slash therapy yeah so i would tell a kid who's sitting in front of me who does know anything about this and who has a little bit of interest or thoughtful about this is one it's important and two you're not weird or off or corny for thinking about it and three go find an adult who you can talk to this about that might be a teacher at school it might be a counselor at school it may be a sibling and maybe your parent but go find an adult who you can talk to

about this in a meaningful way right so one it's I'm glad you're thinking about you're thinking about it. It's important. Two, you're not corny. You're not crazy for thinking about this in this way. And three, go find an adult who can help you figure out what the next step might be, whether it's just more conversations or actual resources. Yeah. I'm smiling because I am a diehard Eagles fan. Yes, I know. Congratulations. A.J. Brown. Absolutely. He talked about his mental health extensively. And there was this whole bit a couple weeks ago where he was reading a book on the side line yeah yeah and to your point about the mind being just as important as the body right yeah in professional sports i saw that and we laughed

and we had a little fun putting together a social media asset around it that that performed well and people like like we're like we're with it you know they were with it i was like sure sure sure so that's good and then i read this article yesterday it was something about like the evolution of the the the dad bod which is like there's all these apps Like Mahomes was something out recently about that. Like Mahomes, Luke Adnich, Tom Brady, and they're all winning. And, like, I go right to, like, because what's going on between the ears with those people is their advantage. Like, they don't look like they have the washboard abs.

But, like, Tom Brady was ahead of his time, like, meditating before games and doing all that stuff. Absolutely. So, yeah. Think about your Eagles, though. If you hear an interviewer Hertz or a Sequin, they seem to have some kind of a, in my bugging they have like a zen there's a calm about them right and i i would i would almost bet you a thousand dollars that those gentlemen practice some form of mental health um mindfulness i guarantee you i mean look lane johnson talks about it all the time a j brown talks about it all

the thing that people don't realize about a j brown is he's got a seat on his shirt he's a captain of that team so like the media wants to make up this bullshit about how he's a cancer he's a diva what's going on inside that house like it's very clear that he's he's leading that team. No doubt about it. And you see it, he blocks when Sequan scores. He's the first person there to pick him up. Are you a Giants fan?

I'm a Raiders fan. Okay. Everything else is all in New York. I'm a Yankees fan. I'm a Knicks fan. I went to Syracuse University, so I'm an Orangeman. But I'm a Raiders fan because when I play Pop Warner in like 83, they gave me 34 of Marcus Allen's number.

And I'm looking for somebody who had that number. I was like, oh, Mark Connolly plays for the Raiders. And then I learned that Al Day. Davis, former owner of the Raiders, went to Syracuse, went to my alma mater. So I was like, I'm a Raiders fan. Has that been better or worse than being a Giants fan? I guess. That's a tough call.

Mental health resources needed for both. Big time. Giants got a couple Super Bowels in there. I haven't had one a long time. Let me ask you this. You look at, you're a kid, you get to Al Davis, right? You know, old white guy. Yeah.

You know, super, like, what are you thinking as, like, a young black kid living in the projects? Like, you know, like, what? are you like you no so check this out al davis was the first NFL head coach NFL owner to hire a black head coach al davis was the first NFL owner to hire a woman in the senior leadership position in the NFL right so um I found I found um there was an affinity there for me he was a rebel right and um I love that somebody who's going to push against the grain is Zach pushes against the grain Al davis pushed against the grain and I love people like that so so I You push against the grain.

Hey, I try my best. This is good, man. I really appreciate this. We're going to make sure this thing gets out there. I appreciate, look, I have an apology. We had some scheduling mishaps. I'm glad we got it done. Here, we made it happen.

We made it happen. I let you wear a Yankees hat, you know, all the good things. It would have been corny of me to wear a Philly's hat or something like that. No, yeah, it would have been. For sure. Yeah, sucking up. Exactly. But I want to keep this conversation going off camera because that's real work.

The real work's going to be done. For sure. I appreciate that. Yeah. I really am grateful for you. Grateful for you too. Thanks. Thank you.