The Zac Clark Show - Wild Stories, Painful Truths, and Second Chances: Zac and Jay

Episode Date: January 28, 2025

In this special 40th episode of The Zac Clark Show, Zac sits down with TZCS producer, sometime co-host, and longtime friend, Jay Devore, for an unfiltered, deeply personal conversation. Having been part of Zac's journey since his first days in New York and early sobriety, Jay shares the wild, raw, and sometimes hilarious stories that have shaped their friendship. From an unforgettable car-trunk childbirth on the streets of New York to Zac’s infamous gallbladder saga, this episode is packed with jaw-dropping moments and heartfelt reflections. Together, Zac and Jay explore the parallels between parenthood and recovery, the power of community, and the relentless pull of addiction. They discuss modern challenges—from the dangers of social media and THC use among kids to the mental health challenges faced by athletes and everyday people alike. Finding humor in the pain and wisdom in the chaos, this episode dives into the raw realities of addiction and recovery, delivering raw honesty, hard-earned lessons, moments of unexpected laughter, and the beauty of second chances.  Don’t forget to subscribe and comment—your support means everything and keeps the conversation going!  Connect with Zac https://www.instagram.com/zwclark/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/ https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclark https://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553 https://twitter.com/zacwclark If you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release: [phone] releaserecovery.com @releaserecovery

What is up, everybody? Welcome back to the Zach Clark Show. Today, I am joined by Jay DeVore. Jay works on the show. He's a co-host from time to time, and he's someone that's known me from the first day I moved to New York City and was getting sober. So we've been through a lot. I know a lot about him. He knows a lot about me. It's going to hopefully make for some good conversations here and add to the show. Jay, what's up? Hey, man. Yeah, I guess I wanted you to do that out of fear of people being like, who the hell is this dude, stay next to me talking, see next to you. But, yeah, thank you. No, this has been exciting doing this show. One thing I was thinking about, like, that is unique.

About ending up here, it's just we have had a relationship that's lasted more than 10 years, which is, there's no other relationships other than the ones that I've built, you know, in recovery that have lasted that long, except like kids I grew up with. It's just like rare, you know, not even kids I went to college with. and so just to like remain close and connected to someone like that as people change you know uh it's just it's unique yeah you know no relationships are hard i mean look it's what's crazy about recovery we talk about it a lot on this show and we're going to try and spread our wings and talk about a lot of different stuff here because really the goal is just to be positive right like we want to spread stories of hope and positivity uh that that go far and

beyond mental health and substance abuse, but I always talk about, it's funny, when someone goes to rehab and, and they get well, there's doctors and therapists and psychiatrists and all these people, but, uh, you know, for me, 13 plus years into this journey, it's people like you that have really meant the most to me and my sobriety because we developed these deep, intimate relationships where like, I can't bring bullshit to you. I can't bring bullshit to you I'm getting a call He's actually having a phone call

Who is it could be the call It's an AA call Well I mean that's what's you know We're not going to make this about You know we did We've spoken about But that's a funny It's just really like I'm getting a phone call

From someone else who's sober To just probably check in And we're sitting here on a Saturday night At 7 o'clock You know that is not The norm But that's what's so special about Like I always say

The world at large can learn a lot from the way the recovery community moves. Yeah, I mean, I think what is ultimately unique is that, you know, the relationship grew, has grown, and a lot of them do that lasts, you know, organically, right? Like one person coming to another person for help or, you know, being in a room of people who have struggled with the same thing, who identify, you know,

and it's not like you're just, you know, like in school or you're put into a room, and next kid next to you ends up becoming a lifelong friend. It's like you came to a place to help yourself. And then as a result of just continuing to walk that path, these other people come into your life. Like I told you this, and I'm not, I mean, I can get caught up in astrology and the part of me is terrified of,

and the other part of me thinks it's real. But like you, another dude who's very close to me and another guy that I'm very close to, all have birthdays two of you have the same birthday another one has birthday uh january 14th i mean apricorns yeah does that mean anything no i don't know but like it is what it is so um it's just interesting i got i got it all right i'm taking this thing sideways right now go go i'm taking a side you got some ink on your hand here oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah show if you can't like what like yeah yeah this is a uh i don't know your pocket maybe we'll zoom in on

This is Sandy from SpongeBob. Who did it? My daughter, Louisiana. Yep. Is this the daughter that, no. So Jay has an outrageous. I mean, his story. This story.

So Jay, how many kids you have? Two. Two kids. As a result of getting sober the whole thing. So you have your first child and everything goes normal. Yeah. second child my son my son who's now

three and a half was born so your wife is pregnant yes oh you want you want me to pull it back and really like so your wife is eight months pregnant my wife we're about a day before the due date so everything we've

she's gone full term we're good to go middle of the night she she wakes up she's having contract Not sure if they are the contractions, but she wants to call the doctor. So I obviously never, I've never. So contractions, when the contractions, Tom, it's like time to go. Is that? Yeah.

I mean, when you're, you know, typically, like they will have, you know, you can have contractions that aren't necessarily mean the baby's coming. But like when you're that close to. It's go time. That you don't know. And you just so usually if they're within five minutes of each other, the doctor will say come to the hospital. And you're living in New York City.

You live in New York City down on the lower east village area. So we're there. And, you know, and so she, my wife goes and calls the doctor. And I'm not thinking anything. I'm getting ready to go, but I'm, you know, it's normal. We went through the first one. Everything worked out. And the doctor says, go to the hospital.

So I say, okay, great. I go get the car. The car is a couple blocks away. Parked on the street in New York City. Yeah, parked on the street a couple blocks away. What time of years is it? This is in March of 2021. It's five in the morning.

Oh, my God. I go get the car. I'm walking to get the car. I'm not, you know, I ran the last block. I don't know why I ran, but I just, I ran the last block. I get the car. I bring it back. I park in front of our apartment.

I go upstairs. And my wife is in excruciating pain. She's sweating. She's like, we need to go now. I'm like, okay, yeah, that's what we're doing. Right. So she, she gingerly starts walking towards. the door to go downstairs.

I go get my daughter who's sleeping. I pick her up and I get ready to take her. I'm not thinking anything. No one else is there. So you got to grab your daughter. Your daughter has to come. Yeah, I grab my daughter. I get her a snack because, you know, it's the morning.

She's waking up. And I'm carrying her downstairs and I get outside on, you know, on Bowery. And my wife, Hannah, is screaming. She's writhing in pain. She's screaming. He's coming. He's coming. coming. I'm like, all right, great. Let's get in the car and go. I throw my daughter Louisa in the car

and my wife Hannah. She's like, no, he's coming now. And she's on the phone. She hands me the phone. I didn't even know she was on the phone. She hands me the phone with EMS. I'm talking to this guy. He's like, sir, you need to get your wife, you know, laying on her back because it sounds like the baby's coming. And somehow opened up the trunk. Hannah got into the trunk. SUV or many compact SUV so you know and he's like you need to keep your hands by that area I'm thinking why I'm not like I'm you know I'm call me I think I'm informed I think I witnessed my first daughter's birth I don't know I you know so I get her I get her into the she gets into the back of the trunk and I and and is getting ready to go and I I see the baby's head you know

the crown of his head so you're on The Bowery. We're on the Bowery. In New York City at 5.30 in the morning. People are walking by, you know, like glancing and keep it moving. You know, our neighbors who lived on the second floor heard her screaming and they're at the window watching this happen. They don't have kids.

They don't, they've never been through it. So they're just watching this. So I'm fucking freaking out, man. You know, I, I puraled my hands. My daughter doesn't know what's going on. She's sitting quietly. And all I could think was like, God damn, man. We just went to the doctors last week.

There's so many doctor's appointments. you know, everything was done to the, you know, dot the eye across the T or whatever. How are we in this position? I just felt completely helpless, and I know Hannah was terrified. So she's in the back. She has her, you know, her pants down. Sorry for being graphic here. And I see my kid's head.

And I look out the window and I see an ambulance and a cop car go by. I'm not putting two and two together. I wave them down and I look back in and my son pops into my hand. Pops. and I you know and it's and then that was the EMS that was and they came over and and he had the umbilical cord around his neck but like it was okay um you know Hannah was and did they handle that there they they took him and then they took her and him into the ambulance um and you know she was immediately relieved like she it was like 180 and some women

in labor for 12, 15, 18, I mean... I mean, 36 hours, man. Like, we're to, like, you got to do a C-section, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, um, and, and, and fortunately, so we went to the hospital and everything was fine. And we, he did end up spending a couple days in the Nick U, um, but they didn't say it was related to that. He needed help, like, his lungs adjusting. So they had to help keep him on a machine, you know, to breathe for a couple days, which they said was, no one could tell me straight up. This was because he was born on the street. In fact, they were like, listen, man, like, people, baby's been born outside of hospitals for thousands of years. You know what I mean? Like, we don't know if that's why. But he's going to be okay, and he is okay.

Healthy. Healthy, yeah. What's the kid's name? Silas. Middle name? Jones. Born on Great Jones Street. Yeah, it's right near.

Great Jones is a cross street. We couldn't do Bowery to him, so we gave him Jones. Hannah's probably going to kill me for telling the story. after it happened I every fucking person I met I had to tell this story too oh my god I mean that's I mean we talk about spiritual experiences right

we talk about life like how cool is that I mean it's amazing I mean it's the best it's the greatest moment of my life you know like that my daughter and getting married and and uh I mean but that is like

that's an awesome just awesome And I, and we're just, I mean, I'm so grateful that everything was okay and everyone is okay. But you just feel so fucking helpless. So then they leave and you get in the car with your daughter and drive? Well, then my daughter, then my wheel went back upstairs and my, my sister-in-law and then her husband came over. And then I went to the hospital and, um, um, and, and was there. And forgive me, I don't know anything about childbirth.

I'm 41 and don't have. have kids. So Hannah, does she need medical attention after birthing this child on the street? I mean, just typical, I mean, she was just standard, like nothing was unusually wrong with her. I mean, I'm telling you, she has said that this was an easier, you know, not the actual circumstance, but like in terms of physically, like what it did for, you know, what it took out of her, this was easier because it was really like an hour and a half. It's called like precipitous labor. So if we had another kid Like we'd have to schedule that and be there

So no Like she was okay You know it was he needed a couple extra days in the NICU Which was fucking you know rough But like for a couple weeks after Every time I closed my eyes when I went to sleep I couldn't get that image out of my head Because I just

I just didn't know he was going to pop You know like I don't know all this to say it Like I just didn't fucking That's not how it went down you know the first time um and that's love right i mean that i mean in that moment you probably love your wife more than anything in the world right i mean it's oh man i mean like yeah i mean i like if you want to turn this into something else like i think like that's part of the challenge is that like a marriage at least it it's it's hard like you the the child like your children

become you know the marriage you know and it's like it's really hard to um to detach that and be like all right yeah like we're actually like man a woman like husband wife like you know like we we have to work on this and that's fucking hard I know so many parents and whether they're sober or not who are just like our kids are gonna make me and my wife hate each other um because it's it's fucking hard it's hard you know and like being a newborn and getting through that phase like that's scary because you're like I don't know what we're doing and we just hope the baby is okay but like when they become toddlers and shit and like and they're like becoming their own autonomous people like that's that's when it's like there's

just there's no rest man you know and like every waking moment uh whether i'm aware of it or not like is i'm thinking about them you know and it's the best thing in the world dude and like whether or not someone wants to have that is is you know it's it's fine if they don't but like I cannot imagine living my life without my children, you know. I, I love that story. Yeah. And I love, I love, there's so many ways I could go, right, with it. And the parallels to recovery and the way I met you and, and, you know, just in general,

like being a parent and doing this work. I've really gotten a front row seat to how hard it is to be a parent because we had our family wellness program recently where we had 30 something plus parents come up to our clinic and we put them through three days of support and encouraging them to kind of focus on themselves

and it's really the impossible ask. Yeah. My understanding is once you have a child, there's nothing there's no like there's a new level of love that can only be described by someone who's had children I guess yeah I don't know that feeling

well two things one I want to ask you something and secondly because you have had like I know you have you know whether it's your family you know like you are very close to other parents yeah I feel like I feel like if I had you know when we've had people in this

chair talk about their child like i feel like and i think about it with my with my kids now um i don't know how because no matter what level of awareness or understanding or even someone who's in who's sober and like trying to like live a a a life of recovery or whatever like the thing you need to do is to take care of yourself it's like what what what rich you know rich bagano said when he sat here it's like life is serene now you know um which can be very make i can imagine that causing a lot of shame and guilt to say you know that like i'm not happier without my child being here but like i'm not in as much pain you know watching them suffer so i i can imagine in your work to get a parent who maybe is not familiar with recovery um to really understand like no like you need to put the mask on

yourself first in order to really be able to like figure out how you can best help your child and all you want to do is just like but they don't want to hear that no they don't want to hear that because as a as a parent all you want to do is get even with my daughter now she's like developed the last couple weeks it's like weird anxiety over going to bed she's like constantly asking what time is it what time is it is it going to be and i'm thinking oh fuck man like me and my wife have fucked her up already and i've tried not to do that i've tried not to bring my neuroses onto her um and all i want to do is get inside of her head and like rearrange that thought process that she's having to say

don't worry about it right so if if you're a parent and you have a kid who's 16 17 18 and you know that they're killing themselves all you want to do is say look you're killing yourself don't you see that but like when i was getting sober like it didn't matter because i just i could not put myself in anyone else's shoes let alone my parents you know so like the drunk driving the late the outlaid, the ending up in jail, they're ending up in the hospital, like just knowing what that did to them, like it dawned on me,

but I didn't really feel it. Yeah. That's why that moment with you and your dad. Yeah, I think about that moment a lot. And I think about, the other thing I think about truly is, is you had this experience. I mean,

that's some people magazine shit. You know, like that's the thing you read tomorrow morning, like childbirth, you know, in East Village. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, But no, yeah, totally.

It's a crazy story. And I think about that. And then I think about other couples that have had those experiences and then started to raise their children. And then, you know, the wife or the husband starts, you know, develops a substance use disorder. It becomes an addict or they're, you know, it comes out in them. And then it becomes really confusing because I get a lot of messages from wives whose husbands will not stop drinking. and they have children and they say

he doesn't care about his kids and I try to tell them I'm certain he loves his kids unless he's a sociopath like I'm certain that he loves his kids the pull of drugs and alcohol the spiritual physical

mental pull can be more powerful than the love of a child and that's that's the crazy part about all this stuff yeah no man i mean like i go back to when we had when we spoke with you know harry kunan you know talking about he has a kid who's a year old uh and he's out running around you know looking for dope you know and then goes home at night and and basically confides into his baby into his baby the only person he could tell that he's a he's a fucking drug addict yeah

And it's not rational. You know what I mean? Like no one wants to hurt their family. Yeah. But years of behavior, like it changed. Like, I really believe that one day we're going to, like, we're going to map out the brain and we're going to really know exactly, like, what alcohol and drugs and, like, just, you know, what it created in our brain that either, because I remember Doc McCormick saying this, you know,

that if drinking and using drugs, like it changes your brain chemistry or someone who's predisposed to becoming an alcoholic or someone with a substance use disorder problem, not everyone who is predisposed to becoming one does. But like someone may have a similar brain chemistry or brain makeup because we see it. We see people who have some of the same personality traits,

but like they're not going to whack down, you know, 15 cigarettes after saying they're not smoking anymore or they're not going to become a, you know, use heroin or get addicted to opiates or whatever. So it's like, what's the difference? No, but there's behaviors that people use to numb out or not feel or their coping mechanisms, if you will, that to some degree, like does everyone have? Yeah, yeah. Does everyone have a little.

piece of this thing and I just had it a lot worse than kind of like the common and you had it a lot worse

than the people that you know we work with have it have it worse and the landscape has changed I mean

we were talking about this before yeah when I when I got sober 13 and a half years ago right there was no

THC gummies marijuana was not legalized people weren't going and doing the ayahuasca trips right and that's gotten confusing

because people are very curious about not drinking there's alternatives to not drinking there's these THC drinks that people my friend you know people I know they'll go out and they'll have these rather than yeah than a beer or a couple beers because they don't get hung over and I just I don't know if it would have mattered for me you know I don't think any of those things would have prevented me I would have just gone to excess there too yeah and that's the fear when someone in recovery starts to dabble in psychedelics or dabble in, you know, certain

things to go to sleep or however you want to put it, you know, I think they're susceptible to end up abusing those things. For sure. I think the great thing, though, about choosing to either be sober or abstain or whatever you want to call is that it really can be a independent, you know, decision made by that person. Because everybody does have different reactions to it and uses it in a different way. I mean, I think at some point, at least like when AA and these things really created, it was like bottom of the barrel, like I got a vodka bottle underneath my pillow. I'm blowing up my life, and that was undeniable.

I think that, like, you would say that, like, your life got to that place, you know, where you were, things were blowing up around you. A lot of people that we know, like that we started to get sober with, it was undeniable, right? Like, I had, like, that's what got me in. Like, I was like, I have to change or I really don't see a future. You know, and like, I had no reason on paper to think that way. But, like, I really had created that life for myself where, like,

I couldn't imagine my life with it any longer. And I really couldn't imagine my life without it. And you got so, you didn't go to rehab, right? Someone you knew got sober and you called them and kind of started your journey that way, right? Yeah. I didn't know anyone. I didn't know anything about A.A. I didn't know anything about 12 steps.

I didn't know anyone who, you know, I maybe knew one or two people went to rehab and no one really I was connected with. And, and really, you know, it was using drugs that really, like, made me realize that I had a problem with not only that, but alcohol. Yeah. I mean, I drank to get fucked up. up from the beginning. No, I always, I always would share this when I, when I, when I would, I blacked out of my bar mitzvah man. You know what I mean?

Like, that's not, what does that look like? I mean, you're just 14 years old, right? Or how, what's the age? 13. 13 blacked out drunk. Do your parents know? Everybody, like all, like a lot of the, a lot of the kids were getting, we're, we're getting drunk, you know, getting drunk.

I mean, like, it's terrible to say now and terrible to think about, but like, it wasn't that unusual i don't think anyone knew that i was you know i drinking the way that i was and and and and i didn't continue to drink that way for the next five years you know i was an athlete i was very focused on that but i had this way of thinking that i've had with me since i was a little kid and that's like what i'm not saying everyone has to have yeah but hoops was your drug yeah i mean but then yeah then i became very obsessed with playing basketball and like non-stop and and and and just had this this dream or this fantasy of where you know of doing that and so yeah i like purposely like wasn't going to drink or smoke or do anything nothing and i mean that's that's

that's such a great thing though for me because that's when people say like what's your biggest asset my biggest asset is my sobriety and the fact that i have the brain that i have that's thinks the way that it thinks because it it actually helps me like it it allows for my success in life because I you know I had the disease of more is what they call it right and so no matter what it is I want to be great at it I want to succeed

I want to see other people succeed yeah but was it like that for you and that's a little bit of my drug now like watching people get sober like yeah you know like watching people get well is there's that that doesn't get old and yeah I think the thing that's shifted for me is

you know if someone asked me for help and they and they like you called that woman yeah it's amazing to me like these fucking people and then and then I'll give them suggestions and I'll be yeah I'm good and then they'll go on you know behave in the way they they behave for another however many years yeah when the answer is right in front of them yeah well usually you know you get that you get that window of willingness because I had tried, I had thought about getting sober the year before and I didn't. But like the fact that that this girl had sort of come back into my life and was the only person that I knew who'd gotten sober and I felt comfortable enough to ask her

to help me and then she took me, you know, into, you know, to a meeting in Soho. And that, that I went. Like, I can't explain that, man. And I can't explain walking into a room with a bunch of fucking strangers talking about this shit that I felt like was just eating me up alive. Yeah, I mean, look, dude, a lot of people getting sober, get hung up on the God word. And for me,

if all I had to do was wrap my head around the word God being a part of whatever program that I'm working in order to stop this that's going on over here, like this chaos is insanity. I'm good with that. But

yeah, but you have to be in you, but at least I had to be in a shitload of pain to be open to that, you know, because I'm going to look for any reason to say no. Like, especially just because that's the way I was. Like, I wasn't someone,

like, I would, I would love to be at the party, but like I had to be drunk. You know, like, I liked being around people when I was around people, but the thought of going into social environments, you know, a community of people, I didn't, I repelled against that. I did not, so other people

might be different and really, love the fact that now they're in a community of people doing something I didn't that wasn't what I was looking for but what happened was is that being in those rooms I felt better and I started to hear stuff that like really made sense to me you know yeah there's hope there's hope there and you identify though but people read you man you don't even understand what you know and that's the thing about I think that's the thing about recovery and that's the thing and that's why you can help me and I can help you because we're not there's no time for the bullshit the problem is the people trying to help me when I'm at my low point unless they are sober themselves have no so parents

family members friends they have no idea what the hell they're doing I mean dude I remember you know it's this whole idea that that I'm fooling people yeah and I guess kind of like I was yeah because the people trying to help me love me so much I remember It's funny, there was an Eagles game, so I had, I had, I can't remember if this was before I went to rehab the first time or after, but I had stayed up all night partying after an Eagles game and I had used all the opiates that I had. So I was physically addicted to opiates. And once you hit that four to six hour without putting that in your body, you start to get physically sick. And it's a feeling you wouldn't wish on anyone. and I woke up on a Monday morning and my wife at the time went to work.

I remember and I texted my buddy. I first tried to find a drug dealer and no one was answering. So then I texted my buddy, Chris, and I said, dude, I'm hurting, like, but not hurting like drug sick. I'm like, I had this pain in my side, which I totally manufactured. There was nothing wrong with me. And I ended up going to the hospital and, get my gallbladder cut out just to just to get another couple days of of opiates like just to stay high

and I remember right before I went under to get the surgery the doctor said to me who was actually from my town he said do you know what you're doing today and I said yeah I'm getting my gallbladder cut out and it was a perfect storm because the gallbladder really doesn't do much in the human body there's no way to really test it and so like my story worked but there was no one in my life that called my bullshit but dude hold on your story worked but did he know what he was doing the doctor i mean like whenever i've heard the story the the question i've always had is like how the fuck did you convince someone that you needed your gallbladder removed because there's no my understanding and a doctor might rip this up there's no real test i mean you drink this drink and they kind of like

it goes through to see if it's working right but if i'm sitting there like writhing in pain they're going to take it out they're just i mean you could go you could go to the hospital now and say ah that's funny and and and but anyway it's crazy that you were willing to have in you know an organ removed is a gallbladder in oregon i don't know let's let's say it's it's crazy you were willing to have something like that removed to to get high um and then you know at that point were you like it was normal normal it was this is just what i'm doing i had to do it Yep. It was the same as stealing a ring out of my dash top drawer and going and pawning it. It was the same as, you know, taking the fantasy football money from my friends and stealing it all before the season was over and go spending it on drugs.

Like whatever the next move was that I had to make to get drugs, I was going to make it. Did you feel a little proud in some twisted way that you're like, man, I just fucking. Or were you so far down the scale that you were like, I'm not even going to. Yeah. I mean, like it was. I'm not even thinking about this. I was proud, and then the doctor wrote me the script to go home, and it was percissette 5 milligram, which wasn't enough for me.

So I was like, this guy. And I got, you know, you're sitting there trying to, like, it's really bad. He's like, we don't send anyone home from this surgery with anything stronger than this. There was no dilaudid being given to me. There was no oxy cotton. So it was wheels up the second I got out of there. And so I kind of did myself a disservice because I remember going home. And, and.

What are your parents saying? What are they going to say, man? Yeah, plus you're what? You're living in below, you're with your, you're married. They're scared. Yeah. Oh, you're getting this, like, you know. Yeah.

Sympathy. And with your wife, she understood. Yeah, man. I, you know, our lies work. Yeah. Like that, how are you not going to, like, what are you going to tell me? You're not in pain. Yeah.

You don't need the surgery. but at the same time it's like it takes someone being like something's not right here let me ask you about getting the marriage though man you know like I was living with a woman about a year before I got sober and like every part of me knew that this was a relationship was not healthy this was not going to work and I just like kept going because I was too afraid to leave and didn't know how to do it before you got married or when you were were married like was when did you know or did you know I'm this relationship is not right well it wasn't my choice she left me so in that during that whole time I never had I didn't have an

experience where I you know but were you if if she didn't leave you and you think and you got sober you think you'd still be together I that's an that's a question I can't answer I have no idea but did you ever think I've got to get the fuck out of this no no because I was I mean that that was that was part of my story that was part of my front and and she was she was lovely you know so it's not yeah i don't i don't regret anything in my in my life i regrets that she had to go through that like i i feel badly about that my heart breaks and you know anyone that like has to live with a drug addict i feel for that person yeah and i understand like when people come at me online and and have opinions about me even though I'm sober.

Like, I get that. I feel that because they've probably lived with someone that was like me at that time. And so there was never, dude, I wasn't thinking about girls. I wasn't thinking about women. I was thinking about one thing. Right.

Getting high. Right. That's it. Dude. Like, where am I getting my next one? Do you remember when? I mean, it was so fucking crazy, dude. But do you remember when you,

cross that line of of from like it's progressive you know they talk about addiction being progressive they talk about you know i always go back and forth to the language i'm going to use addiction here like i they talk because i don't care i'm an addict right like stigmatize that fine um but but i i know that this thing is progressive yeah and that's why it's so and that's why alcohol is so confusing to people because alcohol is a very slow burn you can keep it together with the booze for years yeah I'm not that bad yeah I'm going out I'm hosting clients I'm having three four five drinks a night yeah but then those three or four or five turn into eight or nine or ten and then it's all the sudden like the thought creeps in that I'm going to have a sip in the morning because

I don't feel well right and then you realize oh I feel a little bit better and all the sudden you're drinking around the clock with with the pills and the drugs for me I'm grateful for that because yeah it accelerated my body they're more expensive than alcohol yeah and you know I just and not everyone do you think that everyone because for me the same thing like it was you know cocaine like really made me realize that I was you know I had an addiction problem but do you think for the person not everyone is going to drink and have a problem with be a problem drinker, have a problem with drinking, and end up reaching for the pills or the, or the, or the drug, cocaine or any of the other shit, right?

Well, people hold on to that like a badge of honor. I'm not an addict because I don't do drugs. That's like the biggest bullshit story I hear. But dude, you're having 15 drinks a night. Your wife wants to leave you. Your kids hate you. Yeah. And that's where you pray for the moment of clarity.

Like you pray that that person has some ability to have one. second of clarity to say I don't want to live like this anymore right and then that hopefully leads to treatment or or whatever that looks like the recovery process starts

right what do so what do you say you know I know we wanted to talk about oh I wanted to talk about this you know kids you know especially with the THC with the weed

who may never really develop a drinking problem because all this shit gets there way before that and just sends you on a different path but how does a kid who thinks he's using like his friends but like it's starting to have consequences how does that kid realize that he has a problem and he's not drinking?

drinking he's just a kid you know they're vaping that you know maybe he's got a little nicotine problem um you know he's running around new york city or or or wherever you know and it's like this is what kids do yeah i mean look dude but i what so like the state of the union for me like what i am really looking at right now and what i am seeing are three things one nicotine's a problem and i am guilty i use it from time to time you know uh the zin stuff like it's it i don't know man and And so what I know about, nicotine is a drug. Nicotine affects the same part of the brain as alcohol and everything else. So you're getting that hit.

Yeah. Like it or not. It's the truth. So it's the nicotine. It's the gambling. Yeah. I mean, any buddy can download an app and get a gambling account. I guess you have to be in theory 18 or 21.

I don't even know what the legal age is, but you can find ways. Yeah. And then the THC, the marijuana, you know, and for me, I don't, I don't necessarily care if you are 42 years old and you're choosing to smoke a joint at night rather than have a couple beers. Like, that's, that's fine. And you're smoking grass, like, that comes out of the earth. And it's your choice, right? But the way that marijuana is being accessed by our kids and the way that it's being used by our kids, for someone that has started to have friends

with kids that are 8, 9, 10, 12 years old, I'm warning them about what can happen and how quickly that can happen. Because with marijuana, it doesn't need to be long, sustained use. They could smoke something that's so potent and so strong and one hit could truly put them into a marijuana psychosis where they are psychotic. and they end up in a psych ward or in a treatment center

and the hope, the hope is that they get back to baseline and they heal and then they don't continue to use marijuana because then you're more susceptible to having another break and that changes the course of your life forever. And that's not really an addiction thing. That could be an experimentation thing. Right. Well, that's what terrifies me about my kids

And I know. I mean, here's the thing, dude. When I was in high school, there was parents that we'd smoke weed with. Yeah. We'd smoke weed with them. Yeah. And they were the cool parents. But the weed we were smoking was not the weed that is being smoked today.

Right. So for the parent out there that thinks it's fucking cool to get high with your kid, knock it off. It's not cool. Well, our parents said the same thing. They said the weed that you're smoking is not the, the weed that that we smoked in the 60s and 70s but you know it's it's definitely different today and I just and look this this I hear my wife my head being like you're you're this is pseudoscience bullshit but I can't help but think the way where we are and kids are

attached screens and the phones like dude I even know when I'm looking at an email and I'm for an email man like I if I'm really thinking about it I there's like a very subtle feeling that I'm gonna get from reading that email that I want and there are certain people who if they email me I'm it's gonna come because I'm like expecting something or it's good news or whatever and and I just see these kids on these phones forget about like you know the the the loneliness that we've talked about and the depression and anxiety rates that have gone up I just feel like this shit is rewiring your brain and I know there's been a lot about that

I mean, dude, look, we are, we're chasing dopamine. But is that making, there's healthy dopamine and there's unhealthy dopamine. Like I, I chase my dopamine in my life today. The healthy dopamine that I chase is through running, through meditation, through helping others, through going to Eagles games, to going to concerts, to playing golf and hitting a good shot, like all those things. Give me that child like dopamine hit. Yeah.

That we're all chasing. Yeah. The quick fix for me is to go eat a bunch of dessert or a couple zins in the top lip or whatever it is the the manufactured, processed dopamine chasing that I just can't afford. And then there's like a hangover from that shit.

But when we were kids, man, that fix or that hit was subtler. When you were telling me about the email, I was thinking about like in class getting an A plus or getting a report card back that you or a paper back that you knew you did well on. Yeah. Like we all remember that feeling. Or like going home and knowing that you're going to go down the street to your friends and like and he's going to be out there and you're going to play. But like what I what I feel like is that because we're aware of this as adults,

this is happening to our kids who are just like, you know, in this thing on TikTok, on Instagram, whatever. And like their brains are, they don't have enough time. First of all, the brains aren't developed secondly their brains are processing you know that hit you know at a much faster more immediate way to where and this is probably complete fucking bullshit but like that may make them more susceptible to other things like substances or alcohol that does that at a fucking heavier more accelerated rate well they're and they're i mean they're predisposed to it they're predisposed to it i mean i think there's a genetic disposition to addiction and i I think there's a manufactured addiction.

I think that both things can be true. But also what you're saying now, though, is that because of the way, like there was that story in New York where a couple people ordered a bad batch of cocaine laced with fentanyl, and they died. Yeah. And this was like a woman,

these were like, you know, white collar professionals who, you know, were high functioning in their lives, and they all died, right? So, like, that's the other scary part is that you don't have to be like a, drug addict to be impacted in a devastating way.

No, we're losing people younger and we're losing people at an alarming rate in ways that we weren't losing people before. And it's very clear to me. It's very sad to me. The truth is no one really seems to care. I mean, like if you look at, I mean, I'm not going to go down the politics thing right now because I just don't feel like it, but, you know, when you talk about losing 100,000 people okay what are we what are we really doing about it you know what are we what are we

really saying here guys well i mean what i don't uh i don't know what we are you know what we are you know um and i i had a thought when you were speaking but i forgot it um no i know but like look dude back to your thing about the phones like here's what I'll say if you like do I think kids should have phones no no they shouldn't have phones they should go to school and play yeah they should go to middle school and play and they should learn how to schedule rides or get to and from school I hopped on a bike I rode to school I went in but parents are feeding that because they're so it's like we see with these parents that have sons or daughters that are addicts they're addicted

to knowing that their child is safe. Like, why, why do we, why do kids have to have phones? Really, it all comes back to the parents. Because the parents want to know and they want to track their kid and they want to know where they are at all times because the world we're living in is scary as hell. Well, they've done, they did. I saw, I saw something the other day where it was like they gave kids a flip phone

for, they said, you know, used this flip phone for two weeks, you know. And all the kids, these were, I think they were like 13 to 17 years old. and like they were all game but they were freaking out a little bit and like one of the kids couldn't even he went 48 hours without his phone you know and on one hand this is like first world problems because a lot of people have the ability to you know well what I'm trying to say what I really am trying to say

is that there are a lot of people in this country that like this is to your safe thing this is easier like I know what my kids doing They're in their room on their phone. They're not out screwing around. I don't have the time to really like get them. I don't have the time or I don't have the money to get them into that after school thing like the other kids doing. You know, I got to get to work.

I'm working a job. My husband's working a job. And it's just like putting them in front of the TV. And I struggle with this too with my kids where it's like it's fucking hard. And like if they're sitting there watching the TV, they're going to be occupied. I get it, dude. I mean, I have six nieces and nephews. I see it.

you know and then I start to get like come on guys like let's go and because for me it's fun to be with them it's this is their everyday life yeah right like this is their everyday life this is they like this this is fun to them this is their treat you know my treat grown I mean it's just sad to me that and and I think there's I think there's change that can be made but it's you know the whole the whole world is is I mean it's just you know you talk about mental health you talk about it in schools you talking about in sports, this thing with Mark Andrews. I mean, like this guy on the Ravens, you know, that's why athletes, we'll say it. I mean, Mark Andrews, he's a tight end on the Baltimore Ravens. There's a game last weekend. He fumbles in the third quarter when the team is

driving down. His team's in the divisional round, playing the bills. And then on the last, you know, his team has this like miraculous drive to make it 27, 25. Lamar Jackson, MVP, probably, calls his number, calls Mark Andrew's number, and, you know, rolls out to the right side. Mark Andrews is open in the end zone. Jackson hits him in the chest and he drops it. And the season's over. And not just as the season over,

but an entire city is coming for his neck, you know. And this is why we need psychologists and mental health support in athletics because that guy's been playing football's entire life. It's his entire identity. Right. He doesn't know how to process that. Or maybe he does. Well, he did.

You know, he posted something, a very heartfelt, you know, a message on Instagram. And it was a beautiful thing that he said, you know, how he really thought about this and it was devastating. And on one hand, I'm like, I totally get that guy is going through something, right? And on the other hand, I look at it like, it's a fucking game. you know it's a fucking game and is this does this dude have to torture himself does he have to define himself

you know like by the guy who dropped the pass yes he does have to yes I mean I know I know he does I think back to high school

bro there was a game in my junior year I'll never forget it into this day of 41 years old we were playing a team that we you know we need to win the game and it was a tie game

was a close game and we were going to punt I was a long I was an awesome long snapper is a weird thing about me my long snapping skills are unrivaled I will challenge anyone in this moment to a long snapping competition and I snapped it over our punters head and we lost the game they were covered it was it was and it was and I still to this day remember the feeling I mean this is a high school football game I know this isn't an NFL game this isn't an entire city an entire state cheering for me teams multi-million dollar contract tracks. I mean, all those players. But is that a problem? Because I hear you. And I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I identify with, with being so committed and really making your life about this one thing and then having a major

fucking fuck up and feeling like I, it's over. You know, like how am I going to come back from this? I'm going to come back from this. But is it a problem that it matters so much? No, dude. I mean, I mean, I, look, it's part of what makes sports awesome. Like, I have, I have, at the end of the year, there's going to be one team that wins the Super Bowl. There's one team left. And each of those teams that don't make it are going to be defined by a couple plays in this long season, especially now in the playoffs, right? That's what you sign up for as an athlete. My issue comes on the back end is how are these teams truly supporting the psychology of their players and the mental wellness of their players?

And I think there's probably some teams that are doing a really good job with. it and I think there's probably some teams that aren't touching it because it's you know it's not putting money in the bank right like does someone come to mark and say listen dude for the next three months you know let's meet once a week and talk about this it's a traumatic experience I don't care what anyone says no it is I look I'm not denying that it's not traumatic my question is like do we live in a in a in a fucked up society and culture that like where a dude drops of football in an end zone in the game that that that is a traumatic experience no I think I mean look we're not going to end everything you just

says true dude we're not going to undo that i care too i fucking care you know you know i'm a big sports fan and i care i just when i flip to the other side of it and think about how much energy i've put into you know being a fan of a of a sports team i'm also like but on the other hand it's like it's a way to connect to my my father you know and and and it's a way connected to kids growing up but you know there needs to be something in place where like that dude can then really help someone you know help him process that other than him being like, I got to stare at a blank wall for the next three months.

Yeah, I mean, dude, but this is all this is what we're talking about. This is where I believe that the recovery community has its benefits to all. Like, if he follows the script that you and I followed, he's going to be okay. Like, if he has people reaching out to him, if he has people that he can reach

out to, you know, if he's move a muscle, change of thought, if he's not isolating, if he's around other people, if he's around family and friends, if he has the right support in place he's going to get through it and he's also going to get better for it but you know what really you know what really it is and this is the best thing about sports what and i don't he needs to redeem himself yeah i mean like at the end of the day like he needs the next shot and that's suck

because he may never get it but like he needs the next shot you know because but it's a whole it's like lebron's whole thing more than an athlete he's going to have a chance to redeem himself whether it's on or off the field for sure like he's going to have a legacy in that city because my assessment is he's a pretty good guy yeah and people love him and you know he's going to continue playing there playing wherever he plays and hopefully he gets a shot to redeem himself on the field but off the field and we're seeing it more with a lot of these athletes who are having second careers you know and they're making impact elsewhere and that's why you know as a grown man you ask me who my favorite players are on the eagles you know uh not that you did but i'll share yeah it's the guys that like you know it's

lane johnson cares about mental health it's a j brown like dude is you know amazing and cares about mental health and he's open about it um you know and and then there's a couple other players and i just like like the way they play but those two guys stand out to me because they're they give a shit man yeah yeah yeah And they're not, they're not like, like, the reason I love AJ, man, and like, he pisses a lot of people off. But he doesn't, he doesn't conform. Yeah. And I like people like that.

Yeah. And he went, didn't he, I mean, he's, for in terms of mental, it's not like, he's outspoken about mental health because he's, he earned it. Yeah. He was in a lot of pain and, like, knew he needed help. I know, let me go back to one thing, though. I know we'll probably stop soon, like, because I, and I'm just going off of, we have these conversations about alcohol and drugs and recovery and things like that, then we will get like comments here and there being like, what about the people, dude, who can just go out

and have a good time and not overanalyze the shit and have a drink and go home and do it again, which is like 95% of the fucking world. What about those people? And I think we run the risk, especially with, you know, I shouldn't say we, but like in the sober, curious, dry January and this whole movement of wellness, of alienating other people, into thinking if you're using drugs or you're drinking like you're not on our team you know and that's not it at all yeah that's bullshit I dude I the only way to quiet that is to hang out with people that know like I have people in my life that know that I don't mind being around alcohol

or drugs really like I just I'm well that's the thing I don't think people understand it's like you could put you know we could revert back to you know 2005 we're in college you put a keg in here we're having a party it's like you know people are doing blow like it's the best night whatever

and like if that were happening right now like I would I would have no feeling about it whatsoever yeah no temptation nothing and that's right like you know sobriety recovery yeah it's a it's a fist fight but so are a lot of things in life but it's not it's not actually hard

no I mean once yeah it's not hard like for me today it's not But I will say going back to your, like, the world can benefit from, I think, and more and more, this seems to be true when you look at, you know, the anxiety levels, depression, the loneliness phones, like, wrapping all that up here is the community, man. Yeah. Like, there is a baked in community with people who are trying to live this kind of life that it's hard to find somewhere else. especially as you get older, you know, into your 30, where are you going? I mean, that's why, that's why, like, all those, those dating apps and all that shit, like, people are getting tired of those dating apps and these run clubs and, like, you know,

singles events. And I saw this thing that's, this guy started in Paris or something about, like, you know, dinner with five where you sign up and you go sit and go to dinner with five strangers, right? And, like, people are craving that sort of thing. And, like, with recovery, you come in and you find that there are people. who know what you've been through and it's like how do you take that and put it like everywhere else

because people want that they really do we need that. You think about just the diversity in a meeting you know there's no race, religion there's none of that I mean everyone is there

for the same reason and that's the great equalizer which is so inspiring to me having grown up in a place where there wasn't a lot of diversity you know right there just wasn't I didn't pick that yeah and now I've been in New York for 13 years and my mind's been open to so many beautiful relationships from people all over the world that grew up a bunch of

different ways and that's a direct result of like being open-minded and in this recovery process and that's why I always say the world can truly learn from the recovery community yeah because there's don't dude there's plenty of strong opinions in those rooms yeah but But there's a governing spirit that doesn't allow those conversations to enter in. And that's what's so cool about it, man. I mean, these run clubs, was that popular five years ago? No, that's COVID. And that's people wanting to meet people.

And that's like running is having a moment. Running in golf are having their moments because COVID, that kind of like, you know, social media, the whole thing. I mean, it's people, I was just on a run and someone's on the. Westside Iowa with their phone out you know like people are just and I think that's a good thing I think that's one of the beautiful things about social media people are getting inspired to get out and move around and hopefully put the phones down right you know but this was good I mean I think these conversations are helpful I mean I do I do you know I want to ask you one last question yeah it's fine you

can I just like you know yeah go ahead you've been or well finish your thought no I'm good oh man come on dude I you know we talked a lot about, and I've always, I've wanted to ask you this, you know, going back to the kid thing, right? Because if you have gotten a periphery view of what it's like to be a parent, you know, you're, you know, 41, does that impact your desire to want to have kids in a negative or positive way? Or doesn't? Yeah, I don't. Kids, man.

I mean, like, there's obviously the thing of, man, I had a kid right now today. kid would be 20 when I'm 61 you know you start doing the math yeah right I can tell you that I live a big beautiful life right now um you know part of the reason like through my 30s that I that I probably didn't have kids is because I was busy living you know I was busy living and building the business and doing that I that I love doing repairing relationships you know like all the things and I feel you know I feel very young and I think there's a lot of ways to have kids, you know, adopt, all the things. And so, you know, did I, did I, did I always think that I would have kids?

Yes. Has that changed? No, I, I, I just don't know if I'm sure what that actually looks like. Right. And that's okay. Like, that, that's actually, I mean, no, it's fine. I just, I just, I'm, I just was curious if, like, you were, you know, your perspective was being colored. No, I don't think, you know, the person that says, like, I don't want to bring child into this world like okay like they were saying the same shit 20 years ago yeah i mean you know i don't want to bring a child into what world i mean it's just the world we live in yeah for sure but even even from like a selfish standpoint of like you know what i do have this big beautiful life and i'm doing the things that i'm doing and like if i have a kid like i know i'm

going to love my kid but it's going to change that that's the thing that would hold me back more so than the fear of bringing a child into the world is that just do i want to settle down though i want to stop living the way that I live, which probably at the end of the day would be good for me to slow that a little bit. I mean, when I brought something like that up to someone who I

really respected about having a kid and pursuing a career and things like that, they said, listen, dude, that's an old fucking idea, man. Like, there's no rulebook that says you can't do both. You can't have it. You know, you can't live your life. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. This was good. I actually, you know, I think these conversations when it's not a guest or it's someone that I know, we should do this more because I feel like we touched on a lot of things.

We told some wild stories. I mean, the birth story and the gallbladder story alone are nuts. And that's what you get. You know, like that's the level of... And Hannah, I love you. I'm sorry, we just had to tell the Silas story. Yeah, I'm definitely going to make...

If Jay didn't have a tattoo on his hand from his kid, I wouldn't have... Yeah, I saw you, I saw you peeve my hand. I was like, what the hell is he looking at? I forgot it was even there. But yeah, no, this is good. Thank you, man. Thank you guys for listening.

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