The Zac Clark Show - Zac’s Social Media Detox, Marijuana Talk, Good vs Bad Addiction & How to Get Unstuck: Zac & Jay

Episode Date: August 12, 2025

Zac and Jay are keeping it in-house this time, pulling back the curtain on the podcast’s growth and the community they’re working to build. With a plant doling out life lessons and Zac’s self-imposed social media ban (for now), they dive into how stepping back from the online world has been a game-changer for his mental health. They also get real about marijuana – why it’s not always as harmless as it seems, especially for younger people. Plus, they discuss the work it takes to break bad habits, find joy, and take care of yourself, even when life gets busy.Connect with Zachttps://www.instagram.com/zwclark/https://www.linkedin.com/in/zac-c-746b96254/https://www.tiktok.com/@zacwclarkhttps://www.strava.com/athletes/55697553https://twitter.com/zacwclarkIf you or anyone you know is struggling, please do not hesitate to contact Release Recovery:[phone]releaserecovery.com@releaserecovery

Today's episode is being sponsored by Newform. Newform is community in app form. It helps you connect with others going through similar stuff, whether it's recovery, grief, anxiety, or you just feel like you need community. And the best part about the New Form app is that it's free. It offers daily live and virtual experiences from recovery meetings and yoga to creative workshops, run clubs. It's led by amazing and trusted organizations like the Phoenix, smart recovery and mental health

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This is an amazing application. It's free and it's led by great people. check it out you know it's funny i say welcome back to this show and uh there's no guest today which feels nice freeing not a lot of preparation and i'm here with jay who's my co-host we're just going to kind of get into it welcome back so this podcast started a little bit over a year ago and people are listening people are actually listening

they're writing in our viewership or our listenership is going up and one of the things I love to do is build community so if you are out there and you actually are listening and you're not a robot which I don't think robots listen to this

we'd love to hear from you we'd love to hear from you send in DM the Instagram page share some of our clips let us know what you like let us know what you don't like I know for us we're really thinking about I'll bring you guys under the hood for a second we're thinking about a little rebrand we're thinking about you know how we

bring some more structure to the episodes which I think when I listen back to some of them there's some really abrupt endings and abrupt openings and abrupt openings and we want to make it a little easier for you guys but yeah yeah I mean I'm just right now I'm looking at the camera I'm looking at myself because I we have the uh the open right I think I'll look very white. I'm white, but like exceptionally white. I have so many questions for you. Go ahead.

You've lived in New York City actor life. Like what? Correct. And what is the difference between you and Leonardo DiCaprio? Jay's trying to fix the camera. We have no help today. Sarah, our producer, got sick. She threw up in front of 30 people on the train,

which is my worst nightmare. It was her worst nightmare, too. You look fine. So my question is, what, like, you go to all these auditions, you have an agent, you have a manager, you've had some nice stops in blue bloods

and a few other movies here. But what is the difference between you and a Leonardo de Capri? You and someone who. Let me just say this. When you say, I mean, there are so many actors out there, man, there are so many really talented actors. And that's like, I think, the most heartbreaking thing is that, you know, the cream rises to the top and all this shit. Sometimes it really doesn't. Because I know a lot of people who are very talented and, you know, the timing, the luck, it's all those things.

I mean, like, when you're talking about someone like, I mean, you know, when you're talking about how to someone get a break, right? Like, I've been very close to some jobs. What's the closest you've been to a major role? I mean, I've like, I've like, you know, tested for TV shows. I, you know, I've done chemistry reads for studio films, you know, not a lot, but enough to where if one of those had hit, you know, it would have, it could have changed a lot of things. But, like, even when you book the job, it still has to, like, be the job.

Do your, if your dad, or if your son came to you and said, Daddy, I want to be an actor, what would you say? I mean, non, like, yes, we want our kids to do, but, like, the non, that answer, you want your kid to be happy. No, I think about that all the time, because on one hand, I think that part of the, a pathway to success is to start early. yeah but like do you want to subject your kid to you know what that world is i mean like the the you know mommy managers and and all that like that's like real shit like i'd go on casting i'd go on commercial auditions you know where it's like big brother little brother and like you've got like you know you're standing in a room with a producer director and you know you and like little timmy you know it's like it's just like does timmy know what the fuck is going on right now uh no he doesn't

But what I'd say to him, I really would say, like, look, like, you know, at its core, like you really got to love acting. It's like anything in life. I feel very fortunate that I love my job. I've been, like, in between the lines the last couple weeks, and nothing fills my cup more. See, I think that to me, like, I think that's one of the luckiest things to be able to say. right is that your work doesn't feel like work but people stay stuck man people stay stuck out of fear

and they don't think there's something else on the other side of whatever they're doing that could make them happy and so i i know people that have worked at the same company for 30 or 40 years or friends of mine that got this job out of college and they've been there 25 years now and there's they can't fathom taking a risk which is which is scary to me and you get one shot life is moving fast yeah i mean i totally uh i definitely think people are wired differently i think that like you know the life factors you know family kids bills money all that shit plays into it but like one of my biggest fears is just constantly like the amount of time that you put into your job whether you like it or not is so much of your life

And so, like, I just, I look at some people, and this is, and I'm being, and I'm being judgmental because I'm looking at certain jobs, like, I would never fucking want to do that. How does that person wake up every day and do this job? I'm very distracted. Why? Because, all right, so here's the deal. I had this plant. I'm going to get this plant. Oh, wow. Zach has a plant that he thinks is dead and dying. Well, then why don't you fucking water the plant? There's a story behind this plant I'm bearing my soul and you're just looking at your fucking dead plant Whatever So here's the plant I'm distracted here's the plant This plant

So in sobriety they tell you get a plant First if you can take care of a plant Then maybe you can get a dog And then if you can take care of a dog Maybe you can get a girlfriend Or a boyfriend This plant was given to me by my mother And we're talking about jobs

We're talking about business ownership Everyone in my office at release knows how special This plant is to me This plant has died several times because people, when I am traveling or not around, forget to water the plant. When I came in this morning, as you can see, the plant was not doing so great. Now, this plant is a resilient plant, and if you water it, it does come back to life. But it blows my mind that I care and love so much for this plant.

And there are many, many days when I walk in, this plant is. And that's... How long have you had the plant? Four years, five years. I mean, my mother sent me this plant when we opened this office. It is so special to me, this plant. And people know that it's special to me because I've had little teaching moment meltdowns with the team where I pull everyone into the room and say, if we can't keep this plant alive, how are we going to run a business? So I got to track.

So what does that say? If you want something done right, you got to do it yourself. I mean or yeah I mean I care about this plant I can't expect other people to care about this plant

as much as I do what are your plants folks what are your plants where's the teaching moment what do they say you know what do we say expectations are resentments under construction

I've had a couple people tell me that recently and I I hate hearing that although I know it's True. So the plant, the job, the life, the thing. I don't know, man.

It's, dude, my point was, is that you're lucky, right? Is that you're lucky? If you really feel like you wake, and I hate, you know, look, we're so, like, we're just bombarded on social media by everyone telling us, you know, this is the right way to live, how to live. But like, if you get to show up to a life, a job that you love, like, you're lucky. You're very lucky. Social media.

Mental health and social media. So I'm going to share, I'm really, we're going to have some visual learning today. So I have here. This came undone. I'm sure it's covering it. So you talked about social media. So I woke. Guys got two phones in hand, by the way.

He's fucking serious. Two phones. I woke up last Monday morning and my phone. was green, it was done. It had it for five or six years and it was just toast. So I went to the Apple store and we had at the office here, we had a phone, which was like the content phone, which is this phone and we take content on this phone,

but it also has a phone number and it's been within the organization for a couple years. I bought a new phone and put my phone number on it. When you buy a new phone, you have to log back into all of your apps and I made a conscious decision to not log in to Instagram and X, Twitter, and anything else on this, on my personal phone. And I've only downloaded social media on this phone, which I am now using as my work phone. And I can tell you, I have felt great the last two weeks. I know it's a luxury

to have two phones, but it has really made me think about my relationship with the internet Because what happens to you? What happens to you when you... You lose time. You compare out. You ask yourself why you weren't invited to something. Or it's just... I don't know.

You just get lost. I get lost. I get lost. Time will fly by. They call it doom scrolling. It doesn't have to be doom scrolling. I could just be laughing at something, but I'd rather laugh at something with people

than with my phone in my hand on my couch under the covers. Right? I mean... Sleeping better. you know how I feel about like I really I don't like Instagram and you know social media like I just like I understand when people talk about the value and which blows my mind because you were just taught you're an actor you should love to have the camera on you like it's actually the thing I love about social media for actors is it gives you an opportunity to to work on your craft and lift your craft up I probably would be be more successful. I probably would have been more if I if I actually but you know I always because even you know people say all the time like you're an actor like just just lie and like and I know this this could sound pretentious and bullshit but like the best actors that I know like are really

bad liars you know what they're good at is telling the truth. Yeah. And you know as an actor you do that under imaginary circumstances, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like, I hated that. And I never, and I still have an uncomfortable. I still find it uncomfortable to, you know, be me in front of, on camera, you know. Yeah. But like, I feel like, on the other hand, just look at how podcasts have exploded in that the best podcasts are people who basically become an extension of your living room.

You know, you have them on, you're hearing their personal life. People love that. People want to do that. I'd rather be doing this than, you know, than posting something on page. Yeah, that's fine. But then you have to kind of promote it or market it. I know. And I'm not convinced that social media is the best way to market these things. I mean, look, as I started with today, I, you know, people are starting to listen to this thing and not starting. I mean, people have always listened, but there's been a little uptick recently in our listenership. And that's why I'm asking the people who are listening what they want. because I feel like we owe it to them to kind of listen and take some of the feedback and run with it. Well, I agree with you. I mean, look, this episode feels a lot easier than having a guest here who we have to prep for and talk to and we never know what we're going to kind of get from them.

Like, this feels easier. This feels better to me. Yeah. But. And people have asked for that. People have, have, have, there has been feedback. Like, we want to see more of, you know, Zach's personality. so here it is

yeah but with what you were saying made me think about you know like look like when we when we talk about this show we obviously like to talk to people who deal in the

behavioral health care field you know wellness all of it like it's not just about you know sobriety recovery because it's an all encompassing thing but I do think that like where

you know my expertise as an experience, and your expertise in experience and expertise, you know, in your professional life, lies in recovery and sobriety. And like, I do think that sometimes we take for granted how much, you know, just simple information can help a lot of people about, like, getting sober, early sobriety. How do you know when you have a problem? You know, are you seeing, like, in your work at release, are you seeing, like, is there anything that you're seeing recently that you're like, oh, this is like a new trend.

This is emerging as something as a potential problem. A new trend in the, a new, a new, like, you know what? Like, like, I've seen a lot of, a lot of kids, you know, younger people struggling with marijuana. Or if, you know, we've talked about the weed thing. I mean, like, you know, I feel like I've kind of beaten that, that horse to its death, but. Well, you got, you, you felt like you got beaten to, as like a dead horse when you put, when you put that thing on. Yeah, I mean, I posted something about marijuana. I mean, look, and I get it.

There's a lot of people out there that are hyper passionate about their experience with marijuana because it's helped them. It has helped them cope with pain. It has helped them cope with anxiety and depression. And the reason I'm not going to fight that person is because I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about the young kid who was 15 years old smoking marijuana for the first time and has no idea how potent that shit is. And they're smoking themselves into a marijuana-induced psychosis.

And once you've done that, it is very, very, very. hard for the best clinicians, the best doctors, the best anything, to bring a child back from that. Yeah. So I don't give a shit if you're 35 years old and you're out there smoking weed. Have a bong hit for me. Right. No, either.

Same with alcohol. So it's just, and that's why it's so hard sometimes to have a public opinion on shit because people feel attacked. I'm not attacking you. I am open-minded enough to understand that my way, I'm not God, I don't have the answers to everything. I have my lived experience and I have my professional experience and I try to combine those things to give good advice and to share useful information. Right. Especially when people are coming to you asking for help. Right. So the marijuana, I mean, look, there's a crowd.

I'm going to roll some content out on a crowd. I'm like, if people are buying the stuff in the smoke shops and more and more people are showing up in treatment centers for that. I just remember when we went and did the college tour and the guy that we were working with who did sound, he absolutely was obsessed with Cratham. I still don't even really know what Cradham is.

Yeah, we'll get into it. I don't think it's for here. I mean, like, I think it should be something that we put out in a real, in a more concise way. Because I don't, again, I'm very, I'm very particular about the way that I talk about certain things

because I don't want to put bad information out there. I can tell you some of the effects that crowd. Like if you start using it in small doses, it gives you a speed-like effect. And then if you use it in large doses, it's going to, no, it's going to give you an opioid like a, it's a synthetic drug. Okay. That is, that is in smoke shops.

Yeah, yeah. But it's a drug. Yeah. People are getting physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually addicted to it. Right. What do you think about when people say, you know, Everything's an addiction or, you know, you can get addicted to anything. I mean, like, what do you think about that?

I look at the world differently than most. I have a pretty strong feeling or hypothesis that most of our world's issues stem from the behavioral health care crisis that we continue to be and fail to recognize. and I'll give you a couple of examples. One, the cold play cheater. This guy is a CEO

of a large company. He is at a concert with co-workers. He's got a beautiful family and kids at home. And he goes to this concert and gets caught

on the big screen with his director, his HR director, the last person, not that any of it's okay, but literally the last person that you should be doing that with. His follow-up was hilarious. I mean, he tried to say that people took away his privacy. Was that a real letter or was that AI generated? I was confused whether or not that's fucking. Regardless of whether it's true or not, I think he made a statement and who knows if it was real. Yeah. But the truth of the matter is Like, he's sneaking, that's a drug to him. Sneaking around, getting away with it, having this affair, no one knowing. Then he starts to bring, like, the other girl that was there.

She's in on the secret now. And it becomes his whole other world that's addicting to him. So I'm not going to go and say this guy's a sex addict, but there was clearly something about this affair and this relationship that felt good to him and which made, him continue to do it. And same with the lady running HR. I mean, she knew that she was doing something wrong. And she's had multiple marriages. And so I don't know how her other marriages have ended, but it's, and part of me has compassion because it's two human beings that, you know, clearly need a little help. But then I start to lose some of that compassion when I start to think

about their family and their kids and just like making the right decision. Well, I'm, you know, as you know, I'm married. Yeah. Like, I can go as far as two people are into unhealthy or unhappy marriages. It's a very painful, scary thing that I can imagine. You have children. You have lives that you've created. And to your, you're stuck, how do you really, like, what is the right move out of that?

Do you break up your family? you know do you have the kids you know have mom and dad most of those people know the right answer do the hard thing they don't no you never no you yeah you don't you don't you do not I would not cheat you do not you do not do that the hard thing it's like we learn it like it's always about doing the hard thing you want to do the last thing you want to do is sit his wife down and say hey I love you I love our family but I am leaving this really relationship. And doing it in an honest way. Instead, he did the cowardly thing, which is to go have an affair and let the world blow up his marriage for him. And it's the same end result,

I would assume they're not going to be together. But he did. And then I go to think, like, what role did alcohol play in this? Right? What role did drugs and alcohol? I would imagine that they both weren't like stone cold sober swaying in the big screen at the cold place. concert. I think I read, and I don't know if this is 100% true, that at the beginning of the night, you know, there was no, no one was drinking nothing. And slowly as they had a few drinks, you know, they started to get a little looser and that happened. I don't know, that's just where I read. It's a bullshit. It's a bullshit. There's no excuse. There's no, it's wrong. It's wrong. And people, because anything that you do that ends up hurting,

other people as a result is wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And look, I mean, people can argue you don't know what was going on at home. You don't know what his wife's like. You don't know his family. That's fine. That's all fine.

I am definitely someone who likes to know the whole story before I make my declaration on kind of where I stand with something. But the truth is, regardless of what his wife is or how she was behaving or what she was doing, she seems like a pretty sweet human. to do that is is yeah no it has real real painful consequences and the crazy part is he'll get paid to leave if he hasn't already i don't even know where it stands i i followed the memes for a couple days and then i just got tired of it well what is that what is that i mean like that that's the other thing too is that like this event in some at some concert somewhere just absolutely grabs everyone everyone everyone's talking about i'm walking to the room my my my father-in-law you know is talking about like wherever like it like it just obsessed because because our everyone's got a camera

and and we are now highlighting or able to highlight some beautiful stories and some tragic stories and when there's a tragic story it's a perfect storm of like it's a great meme yeah it's an easy opportunity for people to trash other humans and our society loves to trash other humans and it's at this I mean cold play is a massive band so it's the three it's got all the things kind of swirl around it but my point in telling this story you know and maybe we are sucked into the thing right now talking the way we're talking about it but is uh there's something else there so when you ask if if everyone's addicted to something I mean I don't know that to be true. But I know that our world is manufacturing a lot of sick people. Do you know any other men

who are married that are unfaithful? Do I know? Yeah. I mean, that's a loaded question for me. I mean, do I know right now? Like, I don't have people active in my life that are having affairs, but I do know I've, yeah, I've been around people in my life. Yeah, sure. I do. And I'm shocked and almost scared by how easily that line can be crossed. Yeah. Because it's just, it's a lot more common. Do you feel responsibility as their friend to tell someone, or do you feel like that's their job? I mean, that's definitely circumstantial.

If it was my, if my sister's husband, you know, if I saw him, if I caught him cheating, Would I tell my sister? Yes. But that's not this situation. And it's definitely not, it's not something I'm discovering. It's just information as a result of being, you know, either close to somebody or around other people where, like, this is conversation that gets discussed. And it's not, you know.

Yeah. But it's, it's, again, like, it's just, it's, it's, uh, there's a lot of fantasy. Yeah. in it you know and like people's lives i mean this this stuckiness that you brought up in the beginning is a theme you know here because because people aren't aren't finding joy and they're not working on themselves man like it feels cheesy sometimes when i talk about therapy and the work i'm doing and the but at the end of the day man that that that is what allows me to find joy in my everyday

life that is what it allows me to seek the things that i really want to do the relationships that i really want to be a part of. Yeah, man. I mean, like, it's hard. It's hard because when you say that, what I think, what I, what one thought I have in my head is that, like, you know, like a lot of people just, they don't have the time. They don't have the time. They don't have the resources.

They, you know, like, you know, to take care of themselves in a way that, like, may prevent some shitty. I'm thinking about you as you say that. And I think it's bullshit. I mean, everyone can wake up earlier. Everyone go to bed a little bit earlier. And it's about, if you're in a partnership with kids and I don't have kids, but it's about communicating your needs. I need this. I need this time. In order for me to be the best

partner to you, this is something that I need. I think we struggle as humans to communicate our needs because we feel like that means failure. No, I agree with you there. I think it also means that like we're admitting that something's wrong and that something needs, you know, I mean, if we're talking about like, you know, someone doing that with themselves. I mean, bro, you walked in here with Achilles tendonitis after you worked out for three days. Like you got to fight through that. Dude, I have tendonitis in my Achilles. Dude, I, I believe me. Like, I was, I was, and like, this was, this was, I'm very, like, happy, like, that I was able to find a pool and swim, start swimming. And Jay started swimming in a pool and three days into that swimming exercise. I was doing fucking hardcore laps, man.

No, I really was trying to push myself, and I was doing other things. I was doing like some with minimal no weights, but just like circuit, push-ups, squats, lunges, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Because, you know, and you fucking say this all the time to the point where it's like, shut up, but it's right. It's like it's moving changes your mental health. you know we've had all these guys people come on the podcast who say the same thing and their recovery started that and it's and i was an athlete you know what i mean like i know what that feels like i saw something the other day that said a six mile runs of clove into a 60 milligram hit a morphine which yeah there's a school of people that'd be that's why running

is dangerous for people in recovery but no like if there's a way for me to chase that high and chase that feeling i i i feel that after i run that's why Why I run so much because it makes me feel good. Yeah, I mean. Mental clarity. Look, someone could say like, well, then, dude, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're still chasing out as bullshit. Yeah, of course I am. So what?

And that, and guess what? Of course I am. Of course you are. And that, and we're fucking hardwired to do it. And some of us are more hardwired to do it than others. Yeah. I mean, the word high is, is all relative. Like, something that makes you feel good and happy.

Is that a high? Yeah, sure. but it's not a stick and needle in an arm high. It's a naturally so. But back to real quick what you were saying about does everyone have something? And then there was this other current event. So there was the Coldplay thing. And then there was the sadly the tragedy in New York this past week at 345 Park Avenue,

which is a building I've been in many times. I've walked past many times. I know plenty of people that have worked there. And I don't know that we'll ever know the truth about why this guy decided to target this building it sounds like there was some motive you know behind me the NFL it sounds like he had struggled himself with CTE but at the root of that again is is clearly this guy had some mental health stuff going on I mean and it's so scary to me because I don't I don't know anything about this guy's family I don't know anybody about the way he grew up I don't know if he tried to go to

treatment or get help or maybe he just didn't know you know people his whole life kind of push him to the side as some quote unquote weirdo or something. And so it's devastating and I think this is why we tend to shy away from acknowledging the behavioral health care crisis because a lot of times we don't know what to do. We don't know what to do. And that's scary for us as Americans and as people to admit. A lot of times this mental health stuff, best doctor in the world can't touch it. So they're going to go spend their time on cancer, heart disease, or diabetes or whatever at all.

And that's why I think we have such a hard time. And then it ends in, and then there's an incident like this. And it's like people are asking why. It's like, oh man, it's just so sad for the families and everyone involved. And I just, I do. I see the world differently. Well, I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's, I mean, I, I, I think that I read something where he did leave a note to his parents. saying that he felt like a disappointment.

I don't know, man. Having kids in this world today, having, you know, regular school shooter drills that you're, like, that just wasn't happening. No, we had fire drills. We had fire drills. And, like, I understand that there was a point in time when, you know, we were afraid that a nuclear bomb

was going to be dropped on us, and there were drills for that. But like, I don't think it can be explained. I don't necessarily think that, like, people are sicker. But it's obvious that someone like that is very seriously mentally disturbed. I mean, that's obvious. And the question is, like, to what you're saying is, is there a point? Like, if you could go back in time and you could say, if he was pushed this way,

you know, towards therapy, towards a community, or was able to learn more about himself, understand himself better, express himself better, could he have evolved into a more, you know, a well-adjusted human being? It's a great question. It's a great question. And, you know, I think you'd have to ask a doctor or someone else because, you know, I know what I know. And I've seen people recover not just from substance use disorder, from suicidal ideation, you know, from not wanting to be here from, you know, extreme anxiety.

You know, I always kind of talk about like I, yes, have I had anxiety? Of course. Have I been depressed? Yes. And then I think at some point in the last two years, it was late last year. I think I got like what I would categorize as like clinical depression. Yeah. A darkness that I had never really felt in sobriety.

And that shit was scary. Yeah. And when that came, I said, okay, I don't know how to even talk about this. I need to go do some things. I need to take care of myself, which I did. And I'm proud of that. But so there's levels of all this stuff, which is, which is, you know, why we do this show and why we try to talk about it. Because ultimately, I have hope that people can get well.

Not everyone. But that there's a percentage of people that can. So. And what's, and you'll, the, you'll, the answer will never be known, right? But it's like not everyone who has serious mental health issues is going to end up doing something like with that guy did, you know. No, and it's, it's, the, the hard part for me is, is, you know, when I, when I, when I talk to people about this in my life, and I'm going to be very clear. about the way I say this because I don't want my words to get twisted. What the guy did was wrong.

What the guy did was horrible. The families, the employees, the trauma that those people had to go through is going to create a whole host of new behavioral health care issues. I also have been in this work long enough. to know that this is a possibility that someone is capable of doing these things and I don't I don't necessarily want to say like I have compassion for it but if understanding is compassion then maybe that's that's what I have and it doesn't you know I'm not here to sign off on what he did it was terrible or not we're very clear about that

because words, especially in situations like this, can get twisted. I do think that our world should take a good hard look at it and understand that these things are possible. But like, how many hard looks do you take? I mean, like a guy walks into a Walmart in Michigan, you know, and start stabbing. But what are you doing to prevent that? Well, I mean, look, you can't really wait into this issue without it also becoming political. You know, because, you know, on one hand,

I don't think anyone died. And, like, you start to talk about something else, right? Because, like, that guy had a knife. If he had a gun, people were dead. This guy had a gun, and people are dead. So, you know, the whole people, you know, guns don't kill people. People kill people. We're not, this isn't a political conversation.

But the reality is, is how much of what, and I don't know the answer to this, because I don't know this guy's life. But how much of what he consumed, what he saw, you know, became a nasty cocktail that made the idea of doing something like this a reality? I don't know. We don't, there's no answer to this. But like, look, man, you live in New York City. You hear the sirens? Don't think anything of them.

You go out, you go, you know, down the shore, you go upstate, you go wherever the fuck. of the city, you hear a siren or a fire alarm? You're like, what? What's going on? Something's going on. But it's terrible. Yeah, no, it's hard. It's bad, dude.

It's bad. But it's why we're going to kind of keep trying to do the work that we do. And it's something I talk to my team about. Safety. It's a real thing. We got to be very, very careful. It's why we do bag checks. It's why we, you know, approach things the way that we approach things because that

crises and disasters are a real possibility. well in sort of like a an adjacent idea of that I thought we were gonna have fun today I thought you said you wanted to have fun yeah we're having fun dude we're ripping it this is fun oh well it's sad I mean you are a hopeful guy man you are a fucking hopeful guy I am not as hopeful as you you know like uh and the because it's just hard when you see all the bad shit that happens and it's the stuff that like like we talked about the cold play that finds itself like you believe you can be hopeful or do like I do yeah I mean that's

the thing right so so you believe that you can be hopeful you believe that you can change I think the way that you came into this world some of the things you have around you know obsessively washing your hands and germs and some of your OCD stuff like you can you can work on that stuff if you're willing to and you can and i think part of that probably feed some of the neurosis or the paranoia or the for sure constant worrying for sure so i don't know you just diagnose me i don't know but diagnose you no but you're right no look you can you can i mean look that's how that's how i got sober yeah you know like you have but like it's i think the thing that i've been thinking about sobriety and it's just like what we're talking about with you is it's just

like anything else in life people get so caught up on the what are you going to go to 12 step recovery are you going to go to refuge recovery are you going to go to therapy how you're going to do it but the truth is i believe the same thing goes for diet for running for fitness for lifting weights for oCD for cancer there's going to be a plan put in front of you. And if we as humans, follow that plan. So like in AA, it's the 12 steps in therapy or DBT, you know, like there's, there's workbooks.

And we oftentimes as humans want to do the buffet. I'm going to do this. I'm not going to do that. I don't take medications. I'm not going to do this. And it lowers your chances. Or, you know, I'm in the gym. I'm working out two hours a day.

I don't know why my body's not changing. Well, I haven't, my diet is. exactly the same. I'm not willing to give up the food that I like to eat. And that's the problem of the lot of these. I don't think it's discipline. I think it's open-mindedness. But I think that you

come to it through open-mindedness, and then you ultimately, because you can have a plan, right? You can have a plan. If you don't follow the plan, nothing's going to change. You come to a plan because you're open-minded. But you have to do it. And like, you know, the problem is, is that sometimes to really do it requires a lot of pain. Yeah.

At least in recovery. So, no, dude, these are all good topics. I appreciate it. And I just appreciate being able to kind of speak freely. And my life, you know, for better for worse, I get confirmation kind of daily of why I need to be doing what I'm doing. I just had before I got here I was sitting and having a coffee and some kid came up to me

I never met him before follows me on Instagram thank you so much you've been a big part of my journey okay so when you're off of Instagram now are you I'm not off I have it on my phone

I can access it right now I just I'm just I've been on it maybe once or twice a day and spent 10 or 15 minutes is there like a personality or a character that you feel like you have to be

on social media and sometimes it's just nice to fucking not have to speak in that voice or no no and that's not I'm not I think you're incredibly authentic I'm not saying you're not no I just yeah I don't I mean there's been times where I've wanted to sound better

like I'm working with a brand and I want the thing to But anytime you want something to go well or you want it to perform, it always falls flat on its face. Like I think I think it's really just about, and I think social media does reward people for being authentic. I also think that some of my shit is just boring to a lot of people because if you're not in recovery and you're not interested in behavior of health care, like a lot of my stuff's going to fall flat. And that's fine. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't.

There's a formula for what works, which is, you know, clickbait and. and taking strong opinions and going at people or, you know, posing half nude. I mean, we know what. Yeah. So, but it's all, it's all, it's truly all good. I mean, I, I've had some more headspace. I'm going to go, you know, I'm going this weekend to the Jersey Shore. I got a race on Sunday.

I got a 10-mile around Sunday. Down in sea aisle. So it's three miles on the boardwalk, seven miles on the beach. Very hard race. Yeah, I'm running on the beach is hard It's low tide But you talk about discipline I mean I do this race every year

It's all my calendar every year It's a non-negotiable for me I'm running the 10-mile In CIO Period end of story Well it's you know and you're right Like it's not really like Because when I have started to see

If I'm committed to doing something And I start to see results Well then it starts to kick in another part of my brain Then it's like all right Like this feels good Like, I'm actually like, I'm actually like, I feel like like like the older I get, sometimes I really have to remind myself that like you can learn something new. You can do something new. Of course.

You know, but you, but I forget. You know, you just get, you get in your ways. Were you the one that was telling me that the doctor 40 over 40 running's bad for you or some shit? Yeah, I saw this guy, this, of course, on online that said like as a doctor, the five things that I would tell anyone over 40 not to do and running a long distance. Such bullshit. It's fucking bullshit. I mean, the psychological benefits alone. He was talking from a, you know, it's hard in your body, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Like your body will break down. There's a lot of things that are hard on your body. What else was on the list? You know, smoking, drinking. Smoking, drinking, running. And then diet. I mean, nothing that was like blew your mind. But, like, I am sort of, I do think we are in a new moment where I hear more and more people saying, like, no alcohol.

No alcohol is good for you. Not saying not to drink, but any amount of alcohol. And it's not just, you know, from a, you're going to go out there and feel like shit the next day. From a cardiovascular point of view, you know, from how it affects your brain chemistry. And that's just different, dude. Like, we didn't, we didn't hear that when we got so. Yeah. I don't know, man

It's just a cycle Two years from now It'll be a 1.5 glasses of wine It's the perfect amount of alcohol To live to 100 Who the hell knows? I just, I don't think it even really matters I don't think it really changes

The way people It's scary to me I mean, we had Jeff Havie Who was continued And he had me or they The gym, like I was wearing an aura ring I couldn't do it man

Oh, you took it off Fuck yeah. Dude, I'm wearing this ring. And like I get our ring is helping a lot of people and people want that data for me as a human. I don't like waking up in the morning being told what my sleep score is because I'm going to believe that. Even if I feel like I slept really well. Yeah. One of the factors in the sleep score is latency, which is basically the amount of time it takes you to fall asleep. If I'm lying in bed reading or, you know, how does the how does the thing? And then that affects my score. It just became too much. I took it. off. Yeah. It's just who's screwing with me. Yeah. And so, like, some people want the data.

They want to know everything about the way that their body works. I, I like to go based on feel. I like to go based on how I'm living my life. And maybe I'm the fool here. I don't know. Well, I don't even know. Like, do they really want the data or, like, do they just want as much certainty and control as possible? you know like and you know even now when you go the doctor you can log on to a my chart or

whatever like you get you get your test scores before the you know your lab results before the doctor yeah i don't i don't want that shit man i don't want to be pinged at 11 o'clock at night that this email just came in and i can go now obsessed yeah and there are some people who don't give a shit and i'm and i'm happy zach's checking his phone no i'm just yeah thing you got a thing thing? No. But the order thing, I agree with you, man. And I read an article that in the times I was talking about how, like, are these things making people more paranoid, you know, and I could not, I would not want to do it. Because like you said, I know when I woke up and had a good night's sleep, and I know when I haven't. Yeah. I think the moralist story with this

podcast and most of the things that we try to talk about is a lot of it's really scary, a lot of it's really hopeless. But there's hope, man. There's hope out there. There's, there's opportunity and, you know, my, one of the things I think about is we've pigeonholed ourselves a little bit just because of the subject matter that we talk about here, although there are tons of people who are either exploring recovery or in recovery that I think support us and then you add in the family members of folks. And there's a good population of humans that can listen to this. But the message I really want to deliver to people that listen to the show is like, it's not It's just about drugs and alcohol and mental health.

It's about the way you have permission. I'm giving you permission right now in this moment to live your life the way that you would like to live your life. And if that means making a positive change, you have permission to go do that. So much of the way we are raised and going back to our childhood is we're being told no. Kids everywhere are being told, no. that, don't do that, don't do that. It's programmed into us. And for me, I want to get to yes. I want to get to yes. One of my favorite stories ever, there's this kid that was arrested for spraying or tagging stuff in a city and, you know, instead of his parents getting him in

trouble, they said, that's an amazing skill you have. Here's a blank canvas that's start to create art. What a great teaching moment. Rather than punish your kid because he's out in the world spray painting some stuff, otherwise a good child to say and look at it from another lens and say, hey, can't be tagging public property. But this is an amazing skill that you have. Let's work on it. And I don't know how the story ends, but I'm sure he was doing something creative in his life. because the parents gave him permission. No, no, no, no, no, no. We all say no. Why? I don't get it.

It's very strange to me. You get one shot to live. Yeah, I mean, I hear you. I mean, look, like, I agree with you. But we're also bombarded by everyone telling us, you know, just how to live and, you know, how to change and blah, blah, blah, blah. I do think, though, that, you know, one objective of these conversations are to, you know, reveal something about struggling with these issues from the inside out. Because

from the outside in, it's like, I don't know much about that, and I hope I don't know someone who knows much about that. And, you know, everyone talks about, we're going to talk about this stuff more, but it's how we talk about this stuff. You know, and I think, like, really, breaking it down and being able to like laugh about this shit but also be serious like that's because that's that's that's that's that's important man you know that's how you trick it's like you know it's like put in the fucking pill in the ice cream so the kid will take it you know like sometimes you need to because you just you see it and you're like I don't that's not my story I don't I don't understand that and then you meet someone and all of a sudden or you're struggling

with it and you need you need help you know and help is is always there. And that's where I am with you 100%. The hope is always there. Yeah. I mean, this was good. I think, you know, I got to wrap here in a minute. But I, uh, you know, that's the other thing. You know, we've talked about with this show is like where, how much time and energy do I really have to give to it? And if I could do this full time, it might might look a little different. But we're going to keep working hard to try and try and get it out there to the best of our ability. I mean, look, um, I am genuinely curious. If like you've hung on this long.

Hello, hello. And you're still listening, you know, please, you know, we're, we are. We're trying to build a community. We're trying to make it. We're trying to provide some resources, some education, some hope for people out there. And if you have thoughts or you want to write in or, you know, Jay's accessible, I'm accessible, Sarah, our producers is accessible. Like, we, we mean it. Like, we really just want to make this, the thing that you want, not what we want.

because I have ideas about what I want things to be, and they're not always right. Yeah. So how do you close an episode, Jay? What's the proper... I've been told that my closing is very abrupt sometimes. Well, I mean, I think in a situation like this, it's like, you know, we had a...

This was a good conversation. And, you know, please send in some DMs if you have any questions or thoughts and like or subscribe and all that. shit but really like look like we're going to keep doing this you know but see that energy around like the like that's me right like that's my energy which is like oh no this stuff matters but it does matter if absolutely fucking matter man and and and and and and like that's where i think i've gotten twisted and like that was probably my energy coming out of you which is like oh but like you do need

people to like you do need people to subscribe you do need people to listen because that is ultimately what is going to carry this thing on and give it life And I think when I say passive aggressively, like, oh, I can just regret, that's discrediting the people that are listening. And so I think this is an opportunity for me to say, like, thank you for those who do listen and who do like and who do subscribe. We do need your support. Absolutely. And I think part of me is just being embarrassed to ask for help. Yeah.

Because I feel differently or that it feels, however it feels to me to ask for someone to like something. Yeah. I hear you. So please like, subscribe, follow us, and we'll be back. That's all. Thanks, guys.