The Zach Lowe Show - A Look at the Lakers With Dan Woike, Plus Key Restricted Free Agents and More With Nekias Duncan

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

From Las Vegas, Zach welcomes Dan Woike to discuss all things Lakers and LeBron (1:14): What’s the latest, what is each side looking for, and where do the Lakers stack up in the West? Next, Nekias Duncan hops on to talk about the key restricted free agents still not signed, including Quentin Grimes (39:51), Josh Giddey (58:10), Jonathan Kuminga (1:01:57), and Cam Thomas (1:17:07). Lastly, a look at the outlook for the Detroit Pistons (1:27:10) this season and beyond. Host: Zach Lowe Guests: Dan Woike and Nekias Duncan Producers: Jesse Aron and Jonathan Frias Get started today at HubSpot.com/AI Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Learn more at adobe.com slash Firefly. All right. Coming up on the Zach Lowe show live from Las Vegas, it's Summer League. We're going to talk about a whole lot of stuff. We have Dan Wojke from the Athletic, who knows L.A. basketball clippers and Lakers better than anyone. We're going to talk about the LeBron situation.

Oklahoma cities, recent contract extensions with J. Dub and Chet, looming over the entire Western Conference, where the Lakers stack up relative to the best teams in the West. And then the Caius Duncan, yeah, he's back from the Dunker spot. We're going to talk about restricted free agency and the big high profile guys who seem to be stuck. Josh Giddy, Jonathan Kam, Thomas, Quentin Grimes. How do we project the Sixers to be this year? How can anyone project the Sixers to be this year? And then we have a deep dive on the Detroit Pistons.

They're going to try to pick a team kind of under the radar team to do something like that on every episode until we close up shop for vacation. And the dead times of the summer today is the Pistons. Did they get better? That they get worse? Where do they project next season? How good is the Sartopson going to be? Why is Jaden Ivy one of my most intriguing players in the league, if not the most intriguing player in the East? Next year we got all that coming up on the Zach Lowe show.

Hope you enjoy. Welcome to the Zach Lowe Show live. from an undisclosed hotel in Las Vegas, Nevada, as beautiful as ever. I love Las Vegas, completely unironically. Dan Wojke from The Athletic, not the LA Times anymore, The Athletic. How are you, sir? I also unironically love Vegas. I'm a, like, Zach, you know me.

I'm a chatter. I like to rub elbows with people. There is stuff everywhere. The city is full of stuff. Did you go to the back street boys yet? Everyone's going to the Backstreet Boys at the sphere. Everyone, everyone. The whole NBA has been at the Backstreet Boys.

I was out with people after the show the last two nights. I have not gone. Were they dressed in all white? Because that's the thing to do, apparently. One was. One was in all white. And as soon as I saw him, I was like, I know what you did tonight. Like, yeah, you have to wear all white.

Would you, what's your price point for going to see the Backstreet Boys at the Sphere? $1? $1? I'm not just no zero interest have you been to the sphere free free free no I've not been to the sphere I would like to go to the sphere to see another musical act I mean I don't mind the back street boys I'm just I assume it's like five hundred dollars just to get in the door at the sphere for anything it was like $250 no no out out no no thank you I had so there was some discussions in one text thread with some sources like should we go to the backstreet boys and I got to send my wife a text message that was

said, can I go see the backstreet boys for $250? A sentence I never thought I would, would ever type. And she just responded with a, no, period. No discussion. Wow, you have to run that by? No, it was more like a, you know, it's one of those things. I know it sounds like she micromanages my finances. No, it was one of those things where, you know, you're out in the world and she's at home

with the kids and they're being difficult and there's stuff like that. I try to minimize the good times as much as possible. So you just go to the Backstreet Boys concert and don't mention it. That's all. How do you keep a secret like that, Zach? Well, you mentioned it later. You're going to hold that on. You're going to hold that and you've got to put the video on Instagram.

You mentioned it after the fact. No, I'm not putting a Backstreet Boys concert on Instagram, but I'm certainly not dressing it all way. And my price point is $1. I bid $1 for the worst seat in the house at the backstree. So I think are they done now? Yes. I do not believe. I believe they are, they like, recap.

convene next weekend. They're done. There's no, you'll have to find some other entertainment during the week. So I will, I will pay one dollar for that. I will gladly go drop an ungodly sum of money to go to Top Golf Vegas with some buddies. Like I will, we'll throw it out, it to give us chicken fingers, fries, beer, and Top Golf looking at the strip. I will throw down for that. Ten times out of ten over the freaking Backstreet Boys, who again are fine and seem to be completely comfortable semi-making fun of like peak Backstreet Boys content here. There's a little irony. They're in on the joke.

Yeah, I think so. All right. Enough. Enough. Yes. Let's move on. Let's move on. So like it or not, everybody, the talk of the NBA remains LeBron James.

Despite he apparently, Dave McMeneman asked him to come on. I saw this. On the ESPN Summer League broadcast and talk about his future. And he said, I don't have anything to talk about. I made there or something to that effect. I was actually, I could think of, I could think of some things. to talk about because when you opt in to a player option for 52.6 million with nothing out ahead of it for the first time in your career, no other option, no extra year, no nothing really.

And you have your agent release a statement as not even cryptic as Rich Paul's statement was. And I'm not going to reread the whole thing. Everyone's seen it by now about different timetables and Luca and we understand the challenges and this and that. I said already, that was a not passive aggressive. That was aggressive aggressive. That was like, oh, okay. And what, 10 days, two weeks or something have passed since then. Nothing has happened. There have been no real credible trade rumblings of any kind that I know of, at least do you? Correct. No. There have been no buyout rumblings of any kind because people still don't understand why the Lakers would even engage in that. But there has also been nothing to, you know, to

change my mind and the minds of a lot of people around the NBA that that opt in and combined with that statement amount to a message of I want my money, but I kind of don't really want to be on the Lakers anymore if I can find a better situation to win now. And something has fractured with my relationship with the team. Maybe it's extension talks that didn't happen or go anywhere, whatever, despite the fact that they've catered to clutch across the board before the Luca train. despite the fact that they drafted his son. And yeah, you get Luca, you reorient your franchise around the guy who's 26 years old

and not the guy who's 40 years old. Tough, tough, you know what. But I still think there's fire here. There's fire, there's something real going on here. Smoldering. There's real smoldering. You, I wanted to have you on because you watched his appearance at Summer League to see who he was talking to. Where did he sit?

What was the interaction? Like, what's actually happening here? here, Dan. This is your world. Nobody knows LA basketball and Clippers and Lakers better than Dan. So, you know, the Summer League like seating arrangement thing with Lakers has like some real history. This was the Russell Westbrook, LeBron James, when like they were on different pages and like didn't interact at all during Summer League. And like, turns out, hey, guess what? That relationship was not in a good place. And so I wanted to just kind of see like, you know, was it was it going to be awkward?

Was there, you know, was he purposefully distancing himself from the organization? You know, and like little things, right? Like the Lakers, like posting a photo of him there on social media. Like, admits to like them at least acknowledging, like, this guy is on our team. Which they did not acknowledge when he opted in. And like, you know, and you talk to people about that. And they say, well, like, yeah, we acknowledge it when he signed the contract, right? Like, and, like, it's, it's all of this stuff is like, is it a cold war?

Is it a cold word? Is it? People tweet happy birthday to the 17th best player on the team. They tweet, thank you for your contributions tweet to a guy who didn't really do anything for your team. So I don't want to hear any of that. I just think like, okay, so I think like there, you know, in some ways, like it feels like there is like an attention like cold war that's like happening like, or maybe it's not even that cold. right where there's like these microaggressions and all of this different stuff between the two sides I mean I would say like you know it was pretty normal like he was cheering for the Lakers

last night like during that game like you know his son also plays for the Lakers so it makes sense like that was the lens in which he was watching the game I was sitting right behind him he would you know coaches would come up and talk to him Nate McMillan was there and spoke to him Greg St. Jean sat with him for almost a quarter and they were talking. You know, I think maybe even a more telltale sign in terms of like Laker hierarchy and stuff like that was that the previous game. You know, Savannah was sitting next to Linda Rambis, which is like this is what, you know, what the Lakers do really, really well is they have like personal touch with their stars, generally speaking. it's the direct line from ownership to the most important players has always been a thing that people have really valued

with what they do and that it's stuff like that. So it's all looked sort of normal, but like Zach, like you walk through the stands, you go sit in the scout section or something like that and it's all anybody talks about. And what's crazy, though, is that as you talk about it, you try to come up with an answer and every answer just like produces more questions for me, right?

if it's a trade, like, then the next question is where? You know, and I've reported it. The Lakers don't want to take on money beyond the season. I think Brian Wendorce referred to LeBron James as an expiring contract at some point. I think that is their preference, right? You don't have to report that. He is being treated as an expiring contract. He's an expiring contract.

So they don't want to turn that expiring contract into longer term money. Good luck trading and like who is $54 million? of expiring money that the Lakers could take in in a trade. Like, where is that? Well, but see, like, I can't, that can't be the hard stance if, because there's also an option where you take on money beyond the season for players that you actually want on your team. You do your free agency spending via trade.

But so the way that I've kind of, like, what I've been able to kind of gather is that, like, I do think that certainly like the Lakers and the way that Rob Plink has operated always has been like, you know, big game hunting, right? It's been a big game hunter type of situation, both in positive and to their detriment. What is the Luca,

is the Luca trade like a moose just runs, like runs into your house and says, I want to live here now? It's a hippo. It's a hippopotamus rolls up and it just sits down and it says, like, I'm here now. Yeah, I'm a big elk that just like pops his head in. It's like, I'm here.

I've been hunted. There wasn't much of a hunts. Somebody brings him over. So here's a beautiful elk. Would you like this? This is the best elk I had. It's like, It's like going fishing in the, and like the freezer section, or like the refrigerator section.

You just pick up the bass. It's right there for you. Okay. Sorry, big game hunting. Yeah. So, I mean, it seems like that is like, that is the plan. Now, I mean, of course, you could construct a trade in which, like, you could bring in players that you think fit with Luca that do that. Now, the X factor and all this, again, is that that trade package has to come from a destination that LeBron James wants to play at.

He has no trade clause. too. And I also like tend to think that you know knowing what I know about LeBron James like he's going to want that trade to look a certain way to like you know to be to be

to be to represent the value that that he still has right? So it's a weird spot. Well let's even slow down before we start imagining that there are two questions here. Yep. beyond, you know, what kind of money you take back in this.

There are two questions that I frankly don't know for sure that I know the answers to. What do the Lakers want? And what does LeBron want? So like, start with that. Like, what do the Lakers actually want to happen here? I can answer the first. I can answer the first one. I think the Lakers want flexibility.

Okay. And there isn't flexibility, or at least in their mind, they don't view a situation where you've got Luca Dachich hopefully signing this big extension this summer you have LeBron James still playing at such a good level but all NBA last year still 41 years old

or we'll turn 41 years old this year I think they're like the commitment of money and resources to a player at that age while you're still like on the clock with a younger star is a little scary to them And then you have Austin Reeves You have to figure out What you're gonna do with him next summer too

I think one of the things with like being in a position to be hyperaggressive next summer Is you know Austin Rees as cap hold is like gonna be like 20 million dollars Like it's it's little like relatively speaking And I think that's your one chance Before that number goes up Assuming you resign him you know for what he's gonna get So it's like I think it's they want to be nimble

You know, now what's crazy about this or what's hard about this is like, Zach, like even if it all goes to plan, do they have the assets to like really maximize that flexibility? You know, like they would have the space. On draft night, they could trade their 2026 draft pick. They can trade 2031 and 233. But that's in swaps. They have one second round pick. You know, their young players don't have a lot of value around the league. I think, and it's a piece I've been kind of working on while I've been here,

is sort of like what's going on with Dalton Connect, you know. We were joking over dinner last night. Remember that 72-hour news window where it was like to steal the draft? All these teams screwed up. What a genius move. LeBron was scouting him in college and knew all along. And it's like, wait, he's on the Hornets. Wait, he never plays anymore, even when he's on our team.

Maybe he wasn't to steal the draft. I may not say that he was the fourth best player on the Laker roster at one point in time last season. I was incorrect. And I think, so like trying to like, you know, what does that flexibility do for you? And like, is LeBron James your best asset then? And like, is it worth taking on, you know, more money and different things like that? I think, though, they want flexibility.

Now the question about, like, now, what does LeBron James want? Some version of like, this is me just doing a little armchair psychology with him. I mean, some version of, I mean, I think he wants a combination of. of stability and options. Like, look at the free agency landscape right now, Zach, right? With, you know, in a world in which hard caps now functionally exist. You know, you've got like the warriors and the bulls and the nets to a degree telling the restific, you're like, go get the money.

Go get it. And it's not there. You know, you send LeBron James into unrestricted free agency. Because go get it. Like, what's the number, you know? And you would think, like, it would produce, but would, would. would that $55 million appear, again, from one of the places he wants to play? And I think that is, like I said, I think there is an element of that's not having that level of control.

The Lakers make the most sense for him. And he is an expiring contract with that organization. So I think a lot of this, and by the way, the other, to your point about what LeBron James wants, I think there was probably a time where people thought that with some level of not certain, but like probability that this was going to be his last season. I don't know that that's true anymore. I mean, it seems like he's got a lot left. So what does that even look like?

And if you want flexibility, not knowing where the second best player, like he could play one more year, I mean, Shams Sharani has said this. One year, two year, or three years. Like, that's, Shams is not making up those numbers. Like that is being floated. The Brons said to us in a press conference, that year he could play for five more. You know, and it's just,

I do feel like that's what's butting heads is that the Lakers want to be flexible and LeBron James wants to keep playing basketball and those two things don't go together. You said something very interesting about he'll care what the trade looks like. I think so. And we saw that with Durant going to Brooklyn, right?

Like there was some politicking about, you know, what has to go back to Golden State and the sign and trade to make it look better optically. And I said my armchair psychology was on this subject was, you know, he's talked a little bit, LeBron has out of both sides of his mouth about rings and had the importance of rings. He's derided rings culture with Steve Nash on their podcast. But he's also talked earlier in his career with Lee Jenkins in sports literature about chasing the ghost of Michael Jordan and the ghost has six rings and how many rings do I need to get to before I'm, you know, the goat or whatever. And my armchair psychology was if he wanted the freedom to pick a team that fits with his mentality this year in the way that Rich Paul's statement indicated, like a team that's all into win right now and on a timetable that's LeBron's and not Lucas, well, he could just opt it out of his contract and sign anywhere he wanted for any amount of money. And my armchair psychology was, I wonder if there's part of him that's like, if I go to Cleveland on the minimum,

and we win a ring? Like is that going to be, is it going to be like, well, you kind of rigged it? You know, is it like, is it quote unquote as valuable a ring? I don't know. I just don't know the answer to these questions in terms of what does he want. I know what he could have gone anywhere he wanted to

had he opted out. And when he opted in, he surrendered a lot of control of this process, not all of it because of the no trade clause, but he surrendered a lot of it. But, but Zach, and I think you're right about that. And I mean, I think, like, I don't know for sure that I've ever heard him, talk about like the Wizards Jordan era.

But like, I mean, the argument for LeBron James, right, if you're having this conversation, this barbershop conversation, is that like that era hasn't happened, right? Like that he's still an all NBA player. Like I think Doc Rivers has said like, you know, Michael Jordan is the best player to ever play. LeBron James has had the best career, the greatest career. I think is like, you know, and it's a lot, it's a longevity based argument for LeBron James, a sustained greatness.

I think it's interesting, you know, you're talking about opting out, like, you're right, he could have gone. He could have, like, another person that we've heard LeBron James talk about is Tom Brady. Like, I've heard him talk about Tom Brady and longevity and different things like that. And Tom Brady took less money to go play quarterback for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers when I did kind of run his course in New England and won a Super Bowl. LeBron James also never said he wants to take less money after he did it in Miami. And he hasn't. real way. Like, he took a little bit less on this last deal to give the Lakers some room under the

second apron. And I think that generally speaking, the way that NBA players, you know, derive their value, right, is, like, through, like, reputation and salary. Like, that is, like, there's a reason we all run around saying max player. Like, I mean, it's like an actual designation. Like DeAndre Aiden said, I'm a max player. You can't ever take that away from me, baby. And it's like, you know, and that's what it is.

it's a sign of respect. So it's really fascinating. I generally believe, Zach, that the most, what makes the most sense is for LeBron James to play on the Lakers this year. Like, I think that is the path of least resistance in a lot of ways. I think he has had opportunities to leave Los Angeles, and he has not through all different kinds of eras and iterations of this basketball team. I think he wants to be on the Lakers.

I think he wants a competitive team. I think he would love to win a championship, but I also think that ultimately, right, like night in night out competition at $54 million and a place his family is happy, like that has value. There's a bunch of stuff I play there too. He's also been there a really long time

and he's kind of an itchy guy. Like I think, like he has sort of a little bit of a wandering eye when it comes to this stuff. And maybe there's an element of that in play where it's just, like, I don't know if he's just sort of bored with going to work at the same place a little bit. I don't know.

This all would be great stuff to talk to him, but he doesn't want to talk. Like, and the vacuum is just breath, like the vacuum in the silence just allows for their Well, you just, you can't, you can't release that statement, which I, like, look, I don't know if LeBron do exactly what Rich Paul was going to say, but obviously, like, there had to have been some communication about how are we going to handle this. And then be like, well, why is everyone asking me about this? I don't want to talk about it.

You know, there's nothing to talk about here. What if it's, I mean, what do you think it's not, I mean, again, like, if the notion was we want to keep future flexibility to if the messaging from the Lakers LeBron James was like we want to keep future flexibility and build around Luca Donchich. You know, that does sort of sound like you're like not going to get better this year. And like maybe it's a reminder to like that's not going to work for me, boss. I want my money, but that's not going to work for me.

I did my Lakers deep dive already. People can go back and listen to a couple episodes ago on Aiton. I'm actually like sort of optimistic that Aiton will work with the Lakers. to what that looks like. I don't think it's going to be a home run. There's definitely going to be periods where his effort is lacking and where he clashes with JJ and all that. But I think there's a universe in which he does enough

offensively and defensively, particularly with Luca and LeBron, making everybody look much better than they are offensively, that I think that can work. I just think you look at what Houston did, what Denver did, and I think Valenciunis is going to end up playing for the nuggets unless something surprising happens.

and what Oklahoma City did retaining Chet Holmgren and Jail-O-Wins. And by the way, I've heard from people who have seen the contract. The Chet-Hombering contract is just a straight 25% max across the board. There's no escalators in it that I know of anything like that. And J-Dubb, I think will have the escalators in it. And, you know, look, like people are like, man, are we just doomed with Oklahoma City set up, the where they're set up? Sure.

we know they're going to have to navigate. I've talked about this. They're going to have. And San Antonio. People are scared. I mean, like, there is like also like the Wemanniama storm. Sure. That is just like, like, I don't know when that's going to hit, but it is going to hit.

Yeah. But I mean, the Oklahoma City thing, like they're definitely, we've done it to death. They're definitely as well set up as you could possibly be to navigate the second apron and the repeater tax, which is I think the real boogeyman for them is the repeater tax in 2930, giving 85 to 90% of their cap to three guys. and they'll figure out a way to get off of guys and consolidate picks and blah, blah, blah, and replace guys with cheaper guys and blah.

It's still going to get extremely expensive. Is the NBA doomed? You know, it's hard to win multiple championships in the NBA. The odds are the Thunder will get one, two, somewhere down the line, but like someone's going to get hurt. They'll have bad luck here or there. But that's the bar.

They're the bar and the Lakers just aren't good enough right now. I don't think to clear that bar to clear other bars leading up to. It's just hard to imagine them and winning two to three playoff series in the Western Conference as currently constructed. Especially after they lost the way they lost last year in the playoffs. Now, LeBron was injured, right? And Luca was never quite himself.

Yeah, Austin Reeves was injured in that series. LeBron was hurt. Luca was definitely not himself. And they decided they had zero center play, right, in that series. I forgot they played the whole lineup. What game of the series was that game four? I think they played the whole, the whole same lineup, the whole half. Yeah. So I think like that was another part of this that this whole thing that I've kind of felt.

And look, and I get when you lose in the playoffs, like, you know, you ask these big questions. The Lakers were really good last year, Zach. That was a good basketball team. Not only that. I mean, Luca has already shown us if he's fully healthy and fully engaged and in moderately good shape, the dude is a freaking killer. He's a single-handedly. player, yes. Win playoff series. It's just. And like, here's the other part of it.

Like, and these are regular season games. It didn't matter. I understand this stuff. But like, you know, I was around the Lakers. It was like when they were like really humming and they go into Oklahoma City. They destroy them in Oklahoma City and would have probably beaten them again and sort of like a playoff like run through. And then look at on just gets ejected in that game for arguing.

I think everybody like there thought it was kind of a. soft tech. He was yelling at somebody in the front row. He's bounced. But anyways, you know, they stood up to them again in a series where, you know, like that roster was thrown together after like the seismic shifting trade. They go into Indiana and they beat the Pacers. At a time when the Pacers are playing great basketball, LeBron James at the buzzer, they go and beat Indiana. I have a lot of confidence in their ability to be competitive in a series with anyone based on how top heavy they are. Now, can they hide their imperfections well enough? You know, last year the answer was absolutely not. You know, not having a playable center

against Minnesota was a killer. They struggled guarding up in switches and different things like that. They did a pretty good job in Anthony Edwards. They didn't do a great job anywhere else. It was, you know, that stuff they have to fix and they have to address. The question is, is like, does an in shape Luca Donchich does an Austin Reeves who takes another step does it JJ Redick

in year two in this job and like and just sort of continuity and then the changes they made adding down to Aiden using Jake Laura

to help replace what you lost a little bit with Deorian Finney Smith does that make you good enough like to clear the bar from being competitive to like to your point

you know like staring down 16 wins in the playoffs I don't think it gets you there honestly as of today but I mean I think like it'd be you know tough as hell to beat them like they're like they're like they're close if if it's there like they weren't I guess more it's more like Zach they weren't that far away which was like this whole like LeBron wants to play on a championship contending team like we all thought that's what they were like you know prior to that series they're the three seat in the west like

we thought they were good enough like because they had gone and done all this stuff and then it obviously fell apart so anyway so so again winning one playoff series and they could beat almost any of these teams of one playoff series. It's just a different animal than winning two or three. And I think the expectation is the wrong word. LeBron's going to be 41 years old. You just could not reasonably expect

him to go through a full season in a long playoff run without his body breaking down at some point in the season. And it's happened. And it's happened. The last few years, he's had these late season injuries. It was afoot, the groin. You know, like, there's, there have been things that have happened.

Casey's going to be 41. Like, you can't get to the first round of the playoffs and be, like, shocked that LeBron's a little banged up. Now, I think Reeves will make a leap. I like the Aden thing for them. You know, I like Hachamura. All the things you're, like, La Ravia is good. Is he going to be as good as Finney Smith this year?

Maybe not. But maybe, maybe in two years, yeah, I think, I've already said I think the Lakers will come out looking fine in that kind of swap of guys. It's just hard for me. And the age thing. And that's why the Oklahoma City stuff is so scary for the rest of the league because J-Dub and Chet are just going to, they still have particularly Chet, huge, huge leaps to make offensively for Chet.

And playing with SGA is such a great security blanket for them because they can, he protects them from ever being overextended and gives both of them the luxury, less so for J-D-D-D-W- who had to really go nuts for them to win the title, but gives them the luxury of stretching their wings when they kind of feel like it or when it's safe to do it in the regular season. And I think J-Dub's got another level to hit.

He's already an NBA guy. I think Chet is really just scratching the surface of what he can be offensively. And the Lakers other than Reeves don't really have anyone on that kind of obvious skyrocketing. And not that Reeves is on that level, but it's just their age is, The Thunder's age is such a competitive advantage, both for development and for, I guess you'd have to leave Chet aside out of this a little bit because he's been a little bit injury prone, but for like their likelihood of their key guys being healthy for the whole entire season.

They also, in Zach, when we were talking a little bit before the show, you know, about what we were going to talk about. One of the things I've, I really like talking to, especially when we're here, talking to people about team building and things like that. the thing about Oklahoma City in the situation that they're in that I think is like it's all about margins and the second apron it has provided has made it harder to like win on the margins it's made it harder to give somebody that extra million dollars just because it's the right thing to do or some version like that you may need that money you may need that space you know to fill a 15th roster spot later or something like that Oklahoma City has so many mechanisms to correct their mistakes.

Like they could get off of a contract. Any contract they want, they have the picks. They have the young players that they're not using. You know, like, I'm sure they don't want to trade Nicola Topic, but like if they had to, they could. And they could use him to, if they had to shed salary, if they had to gain flexibility. They have team options on some of their expensive guys

that they can use as leverage. for longer term contract for whatever. They can go in so many different directions. And I think like the issue with the Lakers and this is and with other teams, but in particular the Lakers' team that I'm around the most, is that like the Lakers, the Lakers road to a championship is like a fairly like defined route. You know what I mean?

Like it has pretty high curbs on it. Like you're not going to like there's not a lot of room for it to go to your point. Like, you know, is Gabe Vincent going to have like this like massive offensive, you know, I like Gabe Vincent, we know who he is in the NBA. You know what I mean? Like, unless it's awesome reason, unless somehow it's Jake Laravia, unless they figure out Dalton Connect in a way, like they don't have these guys. Like, they don't have, and then on top of that, they don't have the ability to correct their mistakes because they've had to use a lot of that stuff to correct their other mistakes. You know, they still pay in a lot of ways.

for the Russell Westbrook trade, like, and the hand-contact that that put on them. They have one second round pick, one, in their arsenal. And, you know, I think we've seen this off-season, like, you know, we see it every out. Like, a second-round pick is like the 20, like, you slip the door man to, like, get the, like, to move stuff, move stuff along. They have no optionality on that front. You know, they can't trade their 26 first until draft night. So if we're talking about trading picks, you're talking about trading picks, you know, six,

seven, eight years out, which is terrifying. It's like, they have one route to go. And that's, I think, a big reason why it's a good one. Lukadajic, like get on Lukadak's back is a good route. Oklahoma City just has so many different directions. They can take

their roster. Denver you know, made real changes in a way where, you know, like, it's like they shed money and they got better. Well, it's, Luca being, like, It is fun to sort of...

And the clippers are going to be really good, too, Zach. It is fun to zoom out, though, and remind yourself, like, they did get Luca Donchich. Luca Dachich is on the Lakers. Yeah, and, like, that's what I mean. Like, the stuff that they're not... Like, every Luka team that has had, like, really credible... Like, they are contenders. Well, they have to have, you know, a credible top eight defense.

And do the Lakers have that? Now, they were a top three defense for quite a while once they got Luka, and everyone was like, whoa, what's happening here? And then it didn't sustain. And then suddenly they had no centers. Now they have an okay defensive center who's pretty good on his good nights when he feels like playing. So we'll see what kind of infrastructure they can build.

All right. Can I just have some fun for a second? Yeah, let's do it. So when the Rich Paul statement came out, all of us started making our fake LeBron trades, right? Just for fun. Dallas was mentioned. Cleveland was mentioned.

The Warriors were mentioned. I don't think, you know, the Jimmy Butler for the Brown thing is I don't think going to be a thing that happens. And I don't think Jimmy Butler's people like that mentioned very often. I pitched New York as the most logical potential. Like if you, I don't, again, I don't think that's going to have it. But you could, you could think it out. You can go back and listen. OGM and Obie would look really good on a look good.

Well, Bill mentioned the Clippers. And it dawned on me, I'm just going to, I'm just going to. for some reason I didn't think of it. I don't know if anyone's really mentioned it. There's like a heat reunion trade that kind of like actually makes some sense for both sides. And I don't think there's, to be clear, I don't think they've talked about it. I don't know if anyone's even thought about it. But just if we're spitballing, the Lakers have, I guess, sniffed around Wiggins.

I didn't really understand any of those straight rumors. They're not, they're not interested in Andrews. I think I can put that to bed. I'm pretty confident on that. Let's just pretend they have. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't get, I've already said on my podcast, like I didn't understand what those,

like they were suddenly giving up like a lot of shit for Andrew Wiggins. Like, is Rui Hachamura just as good as Andrew Wiggins? Like, why am I adding a lot more to that? I like Hachamura. But let's just, you know, they have salary attached to decent players. They have a young rim running center that Luca can grow with in Kolel where. And they are a place where, like, LeBron has been and knows, and there's, like, a certain romanticism to that.

And, like, hero plus LeBron plus, you know, I think they can still aggregate. I'm just saying it's just what, it's a fake fun thing that I didn't think of at the time. I still think if you force me to pick, like, what's going to happen here? I just think he's going to be on the Lakers and they'll all figure it out together, and they'll be this nice cooling off period, and they'll come and they'll be a good team. Much like the Warriors will be, there's honor and being a good team that can get to the second round of the West, the third round if everything goes right and maybe that's it. But I don't know.

I just, I'm not closing any doors because this is a very strange situation and to your point, everyone's talking about it and it still feels strange. I think this is like when I try to like go 30,000 feet on this, I just try to remind myself

that people in general like operate on pattern and they operate on like previous experience. And they're just, there is no previous, there's no experience. There's no previous like playbook on how to handle a player at this age who's this productive. It's just like there's, what do you do with this? Like, like every piece of information act that we know is that players get worse as they get older.

Their bodies break down. They're less reliable. You can't count on them as much. Like, you know, just because of time. And he's still one of, you know, the 15 best players in the league, um, 10, some nights. He was, I mean, Zach, when he came back, um, in like late December, from like late December until he got injured in March, um, he was so freaking good. Like, like defensively. Mm-hmm. He's lying. Like, that's like, like, that's where that was like, on a night, like on a nightly basis, like, JJ and JJ was like, you know, he's playing an all defensive team level. And I don't think it was bullshit. Like he was everywhere, like talking, closing out, like scrambling, playing at this intensity that I hadn't really seen from him on a nightly basis on the defensive end.

Like we've all seen like the clips of kind of like that. Sure. You know, the half, like the half as like close out system. Like there was none of that. Like he was bought in, locked in. Anthony Davis was on that team for a chunk of it. Then he wasn't. They played a lot of those games without Anthony Davis or Lukadanchich.

And they won them. Like, it was an incredible stretch. And so it's like, how do you turn your back on like a player who's that good, too? Well, and also for the first time since LeBron was, I don't even know how old, he's on a team that is no longer all about him as the centerpiece. And, you know, I think that's also an unprecedented. This is like a different, I said it right on the day it happened. This is different from the typical LeBron playbook of I'm just using the threat of my free agent. agency to put pressure on the front office.

This is different than that for a lot of reasons that we're outlined. It's a one-on-one situation. And I think that is a big part of the reason why. I will say, like, you do, there is, like, a fatigue, I think, and, like, running this down. Like, I have sources that know LeBron, that know the Lakers really well, and they just don't want to talk to me about this anymore, like, that they've, like, I've just done it too much. Like, I'm not doing this. And I think, like, but there is this curiosity about it because he's, you know, one of the best players ever to play this game.

Certainly the best player to play at this level deep into a career ever. And, you know, he's worthy of investment in almost any situation. Is this the exception? And that I think is just a fascinating question that I don't have an answer to. and I don't think the Lakers totally know yet either. Dan Waikie, you're going to chronicle all of this for The Athletic. Congrats on the new gig. It's wonderful to see you.

I'll see you probably in person in the next few days as we're roaming around Sin City. Read all of Dan's stuff at the Athletic. Thank you, bud. Thanks, Zach. This episode is brought to by HubSpot. In the playoffs, extra possessions are everything. Sam goes for growing a business. And HubSpot's customer platform gives you more chances to win.

Breeze, they're built-in AI, automatically takes care of marketing, sales, and service tasks so you can game plan for growth. It's easy, efficient, and most importantly, it's effective. Customers are cutting sales cycles in half and getting hours back each week. That's like turning those contested jumpers into clean looks at the rim. Visit HubSpot.com slash AI to learn more. All right, let's bring on one of my favorite guests to dive into the nitty-gritty, because that's what we're doing today, Nikaius Duncan, with these restricted free agents

who are kind of stuck. They're all kind of on interesting teams, except for maybe Cam Thomas, but they're all interesting players. And it's the talk of the league right now. Like, what's going to happen to these guys? There's little to no cap room left. They have no to minimal leverage.

There's meetings going on here in Las Vegas. I know Kaminga's reps have met with the Warriors people already, and I think there are more meetings to come. I don't know that anything's come of those. Josh Giddy, Jonathan Kaminga, Quentin Grimes, Camp Thomas, all interesting situations. We're going to dive into them.

Nikaius, welcome to the Zach Lowe show. Happy to be on the Zach Lowe show. Just trying to stay cool out here in Las Vegas. Got to catch Aces Valkyries while I was out here. Naturally, Summer League is going around. But plenty of basketball, but excited to dig into these restricted free agents. We're going to pump fake and start with Quentin Grimes because I've talked about Kaminga a lot, a lot, a lot over the last couple of years as he has been in and out of Steve Kerr's good to bad to bad to medium bad graces. talked a lot about the sad situation with the Chicago Bulls and Josh Giddy.

I did see at the hotel gym yesterday, I did see Arturis Karnasovas working out. And I was like, he was on an elliptical, and there was one other elliptical right next to him that I kind of, and I kind of wanted to do the elliptical. I was like, I don't know, I don't know if this is going to go well if I hop on the elliptical next to Arturis. And then he left and he said hi. And you know who he said hi to? The scariest of the Yokic brothers is here in Las Vegas.

for some reason. And let me tell you, I had forgotten how enormous Strahina is, and he was lifting weights at the gym before I got there and still lifting weights as I was leaving. And I was like, yeah, no wonder this guy's an absolute monster. They had a nice little moment. This is what happens in Summer League in Las Vegas. Okay, Quentin Grimes, Sixers, you know, this is still a team

with serious ambitions, and he can be a key player on that team with serious ambitions. they got him for free, essentially, from the Dallas Mavericks. Not for free, I shouldn't say that. Caleb Martin's a good player, but they were incentivized with the second round pick. And amid injuries to everybody, he absolutely exploded. And I went and rewatched a lot of his exes and O's pick and roll stuff from the end of the season because I remember watching those games, Nakayas, and thinking, yeah, he's getting leeway that he won't get when, when, when Joel and B.

he is healthy, when Paul George is healthy, when Tyrese Maxi is healthy. And he's chucking some pull-up threes. He won't really get the freedom to take all the time in those situations. But nothing about it in real time felt like fake or selfish. To me, it felt like a player getting to stretch his wings and proving, yeah, I can do some stuff that people maybe didn't think I could do it. I could do it somewhat efficiently. And it's going to translate into a second, third, fourth option kind of role in various

ways. But I wanted to, you're watching these guys as closely or more closer than anyone. What did you make of his, of his late season run and how it translates to the, like, actual Sixers team? It was a lot of what you said. Like, none of it felt outside of the literal volume of it all, to your point, none of it felt unsustainable. I remember watching, I think it was the Golden State game where he just went off in that second half in particular. And I kind of made the joke to Steve as we were watching the game. Like, man, these are a lot of hesitation dribbles from him. He's just getting to the same move over and over again. but if you can't stop it, why stop doing it?

But to that end, like, I think he's always been a solid shooter. I think something that popped early on in New York when he was actually in the rotation was how good he was against closeouts, could not down spot up shots, or here are these straight line drives to get right into the teeth of the defense, and he can make basic passes from their offense. And so combining that with some of the self-creation flashes that we saw last year, like, again, do I think he's going to average? I think it was like 22, 5-5 post-stop break for him.

Do I think he's going to be that? I don't, unless we have another. barrage of injuries for Philly, which I guess you can't rule out based on recent history. But the fact that he has been in a smaller role, and he's been fine, the fact that we saw him scale up the way that we did towards the end of the year, again, volume not going to hold, but he didn't look uncomfortable running ball screens. If he saw unders, he was comfortable pulling up. He got into the teeth of the defense more than I anticipated.

I think he did get into a lot of mid-range jumpers, which I think is going to be helpful for him if teams are going to switch against Philly a bunch. If it is just late clock stuff, I would like to see him get to the room a little bit more as a self-creator versus those. close-out attacks. But the theory of that is going to be, if you have Tyrese Maxie who can bend the defense, if you have Paul George, who I hope is going to be back to

bending defenses, and if you have Joel and Bede for X about a time, that it's just going to draw two in some capacity, it makes it easier for him to get back into those close-out attacking rolls. You get some of that rim pressure back, in addition to, once we get into some of the staggering, if it's going to be Grimes plus Jared McCain and some

hybrid units or whatever the case may be, he can now assume more of that usage. And I think with the offerance of use is getting a little bit lower, we'll probably see a little bit more of a return to the defense that we saw earlier in this career. Like I didn't think it was bad in Philly, but we have seen better from him. So I'm pretty high on the Quentin Grimes experience, honestly. Yeah, I think it was real in the sense that all of the on-ball reps he got will translate right into being a secondary spot-up shooter. Like all the experience he got running the offense, driving, having to master all the reeds on the pick and roll.

all of that translates to catch, go, know where everybody is. And he did not play selfishly. Like, as much as he had the freedom to take pull-up threes and all this stuff, which he had to because nobody else was there to do anything. He wasn't out there jacking or playing selfishly. When people put two on him, he would hit the roll man or swing it to the shooter. Like, he would get off of it early. He had a good eye for everybody was.

And all of that stuff translates to his secondary role. It translates to, like, as simple as Tyrese M. pick and roll with Grimes coming up from the corner around a pin down to catch it on the second side and kind of running the offense from there, keeping the machine moving. Like I think he's going to be a weapon. He's obviously going to resign there. They let Yabuselli go to New York. I love that.

That was a great signing for the Knicks to have the cap flexibility and apron flexibility to retain him. It's just going to be a matter of the number and the years. And it's just these guys are all getting squeezed. And it's a tough situation. But I thought he was like, and again, to your point, about hesitation dribbles. He showed some craft. He showed some real burst, too. You're talking about Hezies where he slows down and changes pace. He saw some straight line drive kind of

driving to the rim where he's got some speed, particularly going left. He made 60 pull-up threes last year, 60 of 136. He had made 40 combined in the rest of his prior career. He shot 39.4%. I'm going to round up to 40%. I'm in a good mood. He shot 40%. on catch and shoot threes. The shooting, I think, is pretty real, and it's still the number one most important thing to have around this largely theoretical team. I think he made a leap as a player that is, like, pretty sustainable in a smaller

role. I can't wait to see how it looks with it. I mean, like, I don't even know. I have no notes. Like, I liked all of it. Like you said, his defense maybe wasn't where it's going to need to be, particularly for a team that no matter how you slice it is going to have to play three guards quite a bit because they're just three of the six or seven best players on the team.

But I think it can get back there. I have no, like almost no criticisms. I thought it was real and efficient and like super fun to watch and a really nice story that unfolded as nobody really was watching because the Quentin Grimes, Adembona, two-man game was not going to draw a lot of eyeballs in March and April. We're going to put some respect on Adembona in the screening and the short role playmaking from him. He's just a really fun backup big.

Like honestly, the backup front court for Philly Naturally has been a storyline for the last few years Because whenever Joyland Bee goes off the court, the team just kind of dies. But between Bona and they needed the bright spot Because I'm not quite sure what the Andre Drummond season was last year. It didn't, it was I liked how you put it.

Like, I don't even have an adjective for it. It was just very weird all the way around. Like, I don't really know what was going on. It was a very classic, depending on what night you catch him on, you will see the Andre Drummond experience. Some nights he's the day. going to kill you on the offensive glass and he has the finishing going here's a nice pass here other nights i don't know where he is on defense the finishing isn't there it was just very

odd i hope he's able to find a look of consistency last year uh next year but no to the quentin grimes of it all like i think again it's sustainable i'm excited to see what the actual role is going to be because i think if there's going to be a question mark about quentin grimes as far as the skill goes i think he can kind of slot into whatever role what we have seen new york get to the detroit year etc is that when he is asked to scale down like how receptive is he to that? Like how consistent are the reps going to be when he is tasked with scaling down? I do think he is better equipped to get

more of those touches in Philly, based on who he's going to be playing with, at least theoretically. But I will keep an eye on that just to see what level of consistency he strikes early on when he's asked to scale down. But other than that, like that was fun for Quentin Grimes. It was good. It was a much needed bright spot for how

quickly that Philadelphia season went off the rails last year. What do you make of this team? They still have like the fifth best odds to win the East. they have this theoretical infrastructure of star point guard, star wing, star big, that makes sense. How they fill out around that. Like, I'm not even sure what their starting five will be between Grimes and Ubre and McCain and at edgecom. I don't know if they'll throw him, I don't know what kind of depth of a role they'll throw him right back into.

He's looked good. I've enjoyed the edgecombe experience so far. He's clearly going to play a lot for them. They're going to be a little small. You know, they're, there. Their depth, frankly, like, let's just say they start, let's just say this. What do you think of this? They start Maxi, Grimes, George.

I'll just put Ubre in there as like a placeholder, you know, hybrid forward. I don't know if they want to start super small with PG at the 4, which is possible. And B'd. And that leaves McCain coming off the bench, edge comb coming off the bench. And after that, I get a little nervous. And I say that even as like Trendin-Watford fanboy number one. The depth, the depth, like, there's like the Kyle Lowry, Eric Gordon, Ricky Council, Drummond, like, there's a lot of question marks. Like, I'm not sure I'm getting anything out of these guys, but I'm not sure who I would start.

But there's a team here that's interesting. I just don't even know, I don't even know how to, like, if I were a gambler, I don't care what the line is. Like, I wouldn't even look at Philadelphia as any of their like over unders, win totals, nothing. I have no idea what to expect. Yeah, I'm kind of in. the I don't know stage for Philadelphia. Because I do expect Paul George to bounce back for what was a weird slash injury riddle slash weird again season for him.

And where the scoring wasn't there. The scoring aggression sometimes wasn't there. I like the playmaking. I still like the defense. And so I'm expecting him to just be better and more comfortable in Philly. The Joelle and B portion makes me sad as a basketball fan because naturally when he is on the court, he is still conservatively like a top eight guy that draws. How about how about Daryl Singh this week in Vegas?

I wasn't at the thing. I had not gotten here in time to do the, he had a little in-person thing with some media people that I was invited to but couldn't attend, saying, we expect him to be ready by training camp. Like this was, like, what is that, like, you know, and there's been reports that he's like somewhat resumed basketball

activities, but not entirely. I didn't think this cleanup or whatever it was was supposed to be this long. Like, I don't know what, I, I just have noises now. Like, yeah. Yeah, seeing he hadn't been doing five on five yet, it's like, okay, that doesn't sound great. It doesn't have to be the end of the world that there's kind of slow playing and making sure ultimately they believe in the team. You know what? Make sure you're good by.

He's ramping up. That's what's happening. He's ramping up. There is. He's always ramping, ramping up. Never ramping sideways. Never. He's just ramping up.

It'll be ramping up on Christmas still. There we go. There we go. But like, obviously, they want to make sure he is ready for whatever playoff push they have. So if it's through that lens, then I take a little bit of the angst away. But I didn't love hearing that either. And I think for MB, he's kind of reached the, I guess kind of like the Kauai zone for me, where there is going to be a three-to-five-week stretch this season where he is a top-three player in basketball.

And if you're the sixers, you're just hoping that that timeline matches up with mid-to-late March into April into May. And then hoping he stays healthy from there. And I think goal number one is just making sure that he gets there. And so if you get the Paul George bounce back, if you get Tyrese Maxie, who made some real strides last year as a playmaker, just his craft and know-how inside the arc in general pop for me, watching those Sixers game. And so if you get more from Paul George, you get Tyrese Maxie. You get more of Jared McCain, which the electric rookie season before he went down. Awesome. Awesome.

He was tremendous. And so there is like a little bit of a sample size thing that I have in the back of my head with Jared McCain because he was very good, but it was 26 games, I believe. leave us what it was. And so I am curious to see what happens when scouting reports update on him, what it looks like there. But if they're able to carry the tors during the regular season, Joel and B can still just destroy worlds. And so get him healthy enough towards the end of the year.

They should be solid. Like, I personally cannot make a, the Sixers who are making the Eastern Conference Finals bet, at least not comfortably. They're in the bucket of I wouldn't be surprised if it happens if they're healthy. But that's like two, three ips already. They're in a weird place for me. I'm just going to go straight to, I would be surprised if it happens. And, you know, I was tempted because it sounds like a good thing to say, to say something like,

well, no team has more pressure on them this season than the Philadelphia 76ers. This is a prove-it season for this three-man nucleus, whatever. And it kind of is in the sense that, like, if it doesn't work this season, the odds just keep getting longer and longer that it's ever going to work as Paul George gets older and Joel Embed gets older. I just don't, I just can't sort of put that level of expectation on them because my expectation is that Joel and B. And B.D. will be injured at some point in the season and that, you know, we keep hoping for this miracle season of, yeah, he's going to miss games, but maybe it will be the kind of injury that isn't debilitating in the medium or long term even as he recovers and comes back in place from it. maybe it's just a fluky thing and he's had a lot of fluky things in the past

from broken faces to Bell's palsy to just lots of fluky things but he's also had a lot of knee things and a lot of leg things and maybe it'll be time that he's just, it's an early season injury and he's perfectly healthy for the playoffs and he's ready for the 20 to 25 game run

that we've been waiting for and waiting for I just don't have any faith at this point in his career with this much wear and tear like we learn every playoffs, how hard it is, how much of a grind it is to win 16, 12, whatever, to play 20, 24, super high intensity, super physical, new level of physicality, always against good competition. You're not walking over anybody if you're the Philadelphia 76ers, even in the Eastern

there's not going to be an easy playoff series. And I just, like, I just don't have any faith and that he's going to be able to do that. Maybe it'll happen at some point, which just leads you to believe. like, no one has more pressure on them than the Sixers. Like, I think the actual feeling I have is like, I just don't know where this is going other than there will be fun moments and fun months and we can all hope for this miracle. But I just, you know, they have Maxie, they have McCain, they have Edgecombe. That's, I guess that's where it's going.

And I don't know. It just feels like we're in this in between purgatory, just hoping for a miracle. But I just, I can't. I can predict any kind of major. I mean, they still haven't made the conference finals, even when he's been healthy. And I just don't have any faith. I just,

my faith is gone. I'm gone. Yeah, I think that's fair. I think for me, the I wouldn't be surprised is through the lens of, if they're healthy enough, they have the nucleus,

or at least like the top four to six, that is talented enough to get there. So if they get to that class, like from a talent perspective, it wouldn't surprise me. To your point about the actual availability and what we've seen, I think it's more than fair.

Like, it's hard to bank on Joel and Bid being healthy. Heck, being healthy at this point. And so that's where they ultimately land in the I don't know camp for me. Like if they finished, if they're the third seat this year and it's like, oh, okay, they were healthy then. If they're the eighth seed and it's like, oh, okay, they really weren't healthy. If they're 11th or 12th, oh, we just got eight games of Joel and beat.

And now we are going to get into uncomfortable trade conversations and what is actual value and who are the teams that are going to make this? So, like, it's just odd. They are very high variance group. Yeah. look, this all sounds pessimistic. Embedde is, I have used the word majestic often to describe him when he's in his element and in his full health.

It's just an absolutely dominating, domineering presence on both sides of the floor. The leap he has made as a passer sort of crystallized everything about his game in the middle of the floor, able to do anything, face up, post up, dribble into a post up, hit any pass. He just lords over the game from the center of the foul line, the dirk spot, and was like a fully actualized

super duper star on both ends of the floor. Yeah, he'd conserve energy on defense. It wasn't always there. But he would flash this closing speed at the rim where he'd be like, oh my God, where did it? And then he would fall over and you'd be like, please stop falling, Joel. Anyway, okay, Sixers, we'll see.

Let's start. I don't have much left to say about Josh Giddy. He had a good year last year. I thought he played with more aggression and more physicality. And just more like, I'm just going to go to the rim a little bit more without caution, without abandon. He's never going to be a super physical, strong, like initiate a ton of contact kind of player. But I thought he did that more. I've covered his improved three-point shooting, both catch-and-shoot and a little itty-bitty off the bounce.

He made 18 pull-up threes last year. For him, that's a lot. Defense. rebounding good. I don't know where the Bulls are going. I assume they'll re-sign him. It's some number. They seem to finally kind of understand the leverage that they have, but I don't, is there any, do you have any interesting Josh Gitty takes? Are you a massive Josh Gitty fan, and I just forgot this? Are you a Bulls? Like, they could win 55 games this year. Watch out for the Bulls. Like, do you have any Hot Bulls takes for me?

Unfortunately, I don't have any Hot Bulls takes for you. Like, Steve has been laughing at me for three, pretty much the entirety of the Dunker Spot Pot. with me just being confused by the overall direction of the Chicago Bulls and the ceiling that they don't seem to notice is actually their ceiling and kind of lock against its different groups. With the giddy season itself, like you already nailed most of it, just the surge in the second half of the year, the drives were what intrigued me the most. The fact that he was hitting first more and he was using the shoulders more. The foul rate went up for him. The threes are kind of whatever since that was, what, three or four attempts a game, but it is nice that he is making those shots to the pull-up three portion. the fact that he is taking more of them, I think is important for him because he's going to continue to see switches.

He's going to continue to see unders. He is just going to have to beat that coverage some kind of way. As I was listening to your most recent episode with Rob and y'all were talking about Josh Giddy, and you got into some of the player comps. Can I toss out a very specific thing that I would like to see more off from Josh Giddy with a player that is also just. To just clarify, we were referring to, last episode with Rob or two episodes, I can't remember when. We did a Bulls deep dive. I don't even think it's a deep dive.

It's like a shallow. We walked into like a zero entry pool because there's not a lot of depth to dive into. We just did a bulls wade. We waded in. All things bulls. It's not great. But we talked about Josh Giddy and I challenged him.

Can you come up with what, like a, what is a fully actualized Josh Giddy resemble on a truly good 50, 55 win team? And I don't mean an exact player conflict. He plays this way or you could go that way. but is there a player whose role or identity he would be similar to? And it was hard. It was hard.

But who's your, give me, give me your, what you want to say. I think my thing with Josh Giddy, because I think a lot of decastination for him as like a lead option is just what do the scoring chops look like? Can he drive enough offense that way? Because the playmaking,

he just has it. If a defense is tilted, he's going to do so. In transition, where the Bulls were just randomly a super fast, high-paced team last year through the image of Josh Giddy. Like, he can make those reads. I would like to see him,

implement more of, and a quick shout out to the great Caitlin Cooper, who noted this a few years ago, it got to it first. But when Tyrese Halliburton was seeing switches, and he would just pass it to the person that's nearest to him and then just run into a catch and get downhill, if he can get to more of that to bump up the rim rate a little bit more. Because again, he showed growth last year as a guy that hit first and he would get into these like 12 foot push shots and floaters that he was oddly comfortable with. But if it's more of the, I am getting the switch against the big, pass it to the wing, I am now trying to outrun this big, get it on the move, and now can get into some of this driving craft that I've added to my game.

Does that get him to the line more? Does they get him to the rim more? Does that open up more? Catch and shoot opportunities for others? Because again, he can make just about any pass in the book. Like, adding that Tyrese portion, or at least doing so with more volume, I think would be very helpful for him and the Bulls. This episode is brought to by eBay. You guys know that watching basketball is my thing, obviously.

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Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas, terms apply. Okay. I'm coming good out. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know if there's, I don't know where the sign and trade is going to be. Miami has already made a big trade.

I don't necessarily think that takes them like out of a comming. a thing. I don't think Washington was ever in. Chicago, they've just, I don't know. I don't know anything about the Bulls. I just know they've got a lot of guys at a similar position, including Senge, the guy they just drafted. And I think they would be somewhat worried about if we get this guy in the door, what does that mean for the development of all these other guys if the Bulls are thinking beyond, you know, let's win 42 again in any sense. Sacramento, I think is sort of, is probably the the hottest team on him right now from what I've heard. I just, I don't have much left to say about him.

I do think it's interesting, like, everyone's been earmarking Horford to the Warriors for like two weeks. I don't really know what is holding that up. I suspect it just has to do with, I don't know that it's necessarily connected to trying to execute something with Kaminga and see what's left over to pay Al. I suspect it's a money issue, but if they get him, I think they're playing, I don't know. Their plan could be to start him because I think Steve Kerr wants shooting around the Draymond Jimmy 3-4 combination. They're still kind of hopeful about Jackson Davis having a bigger role.

Maybe there's a world where he starts now. And then you know Steve will switch this up a lot. But any coming, I mean, look, I did a warrior sing with Rob. It was bleak. Like, I don't really see a championship path for this nucleus. And that's not bleak. Like, that's fine. I've said many times.

There is honor in raging against the dying of the light on a good team that's just going to be good in the Western Conference. Like there's honor in that. There's nothing wrong with that. But I don't see a championship. And then I don't see any roadmap for what's next that is crystallized yet. Do you? No, I'm kind of in a weird place. Like, I would love Al Horford for Golden State.

And I kind of wonder, as you mentioned, probably starting him, I don't think they want to start Draymond at the five again. I do kind of wonder in terms of just regular season maintenance at the very least do you start Trace Jackson Davis or even Quentin Post if you want more of that stretch element at the 5 have them start but play like 18 minutes a game and you're still closing with Al Horford like is that a way that you can kind of get the best of both worlds save Draymond and have them at the 4 a little bit more you get to see a little bit more of Post or Trace Jackson Davis which really good rookie season second year is kind of up and down but then show some interesting flashes in the playoffs and then Al Horford

who can still just at a moment's notice take over a game on both ends of the floor. Like that would be fun for me. As far as the comminga of it all, it's just a really odd situation to where there is clear talent, but there isn't a clear fit. And I think that friction has just been there the entirety of his tenure in Golden State. And like just looking at some of the comminga numbers, like one of the things that popped for me was going looking at basketball reference on this front. But 40 games across his first four.

seasons in Golden State where he locked at least 30 minutes. 21.6 boards to assist in a steal in those games, which I think if I'm his agent, I'm just like, hey, this is what he can do if you actually give him a role for either the Warriors or outside team that may consider signing and traded for him. There is a star hiding and playing in sight. Like, I can't all the way get there, but like you can at least make the case. Because the Warriors do need his athleticism in terms of the roster construction. They do just need someone that can play the four at some point.

So, like, there's a need. there, but I don't know if he's going to get what he needs in terms of usage and just overall investment. Because I don't think he has made strides as one of those defenses tilted. I can make the extra pass if necessary. I can make the cut of necessary, but it isn't natural for him.

And I think that has always been kind of the main thing with Steve Kerr, especially since Cominga has always had the frame and the athleticism to be a very good defender, but he hasn't put that together game by game as a defender. I don't know. Like, even going back to like Detroit, I've just been waiting on, like,

to Chicago. I've been waiting on like Vooch to Golden State for, it feels like months. I don't think Vooch is, I don't think that, I don't think Vooch to Golden State is a thing. I don't think it is a thing. I'm not sure it really ever was a thing. But on this current contract anyway, I think you nailed it with, we can all, including me, who has been a little bit more optimistic, a lot more optimistic on Kamauga than the Warriors coaching staff is.

Maybe not the front office, but the coaching staff. I think we're all guilty of over-complicating it a little bit, and I think you nailed it in the sense that, and it's in my notes here, if he just defended better, I think he would have played more. I think the Warriors' coaches would have let him grow through the, okay, you don't quite fit the ethos of our beautiful game and you don't play our way. We kind of need, frankly, someone who doesn't fit that style and can be a curveball for us, or in Kaminga's case, a battering ram.

Need those drives, yeah. But the defense just hasn't been there consistently enough. And to your point about imagine being his agent and putting up, you can slice and dice these numbers. Like, look at this. Look at this sample size where he scored 25 points a game. And I like Kaminga. And I suspect that's what they're doing with the Minnesota series, which they lost in a dispiriting fashion. And he was probably the leading score in the series.

I haven't looked at the numbers for them. And I watched that series as a Kaminga sort of supporter or, I'm supposed to. just like as a guy who's intrigued and wants to see him grow into the player that I think there is a version of him that really hits and I want to see that. And even as he was making like a lot of shots in the Minnesota series, I didn't come away being like, see, that's it. This is the guy. Like I just felt like he made a lot of tough shots and it was not, you got to the line a lot. I thought he got bailed out on some calls in the pain. I don't know.

I didn't come away like, I didn't come away watching that Minnesota series feeling like vindicated. in my Kaminga optimism as much as you would think looking at the raw numbers that he put up. Maybe it's because they just lost every game. It's not his fault. They were just wildly out talented with Jimmy Butler, Hobbled and no step and all that. No, I think that's fair.

I think from that you mentioned him being a battering ramp. Again, they need his drives. They need his general athleticism in general. And I think you're looking for outside teams. The optimistic view of that series is that, okay, he may not be number one option on a team. But if we do have better players, around him and he's in a role that he's comfortable in.

Once we get into Jonathan Caminga plus starter two plus bench unit, Camilla can hold serve for you. I think if stuff is there, the Caminga Buccas just feels so much more impactful because you're running around trying to deal with that, deal with Jimmy Butler, whatever. One or both of those guys comes to the bench, and now here's Jonathan Caminga,

hitting you with these waves of drives and getting to the line and knocking down shots, etc. That it was really just him and what was left of Jimmy Butler at that point, because he clearly wasn't healthy. It was just a lot of scoring in a vacuum, which it is still important, but in terms of, you know, the overall impact, really shifting things, making defenses do anything differently.

It was kind of tough through that lens. And even with that, I kind of go back and forth because, like, this Minnesota defense is just good. Yeah. Like, not many other teams, as he was still getting to his spots and getting to the line and stuff, not many teams just have a group of perimeter defenders that they can just toss on these guys, like Minnesota can. And so even with that, like, how replicable is that for a team to withstand all what Kaminga did and still just feel generally good about it.

I'm not even sure, like, what does that look like in Sacramento? What's the trade? You know, what kind of salary? I've mentioned base year compensation. Like, Golden State wants real stuff for him. It's very complicated. Just a quick tangent here. Because I mentioned a shooting center.

And that a little light ball went off that I wanted to talk about something real quick. We talked a lot about the Miles Turner transaction, both ends of it, quite a bit. I would say I've only been in Vegas for 18 hours. I've already seen a million people. And I've been obviously talking on the phone to a million people. Maybe the hottest question going around the league right now is, so what did the Pacers actually offer Miles Turner? And I don't know that we'll ever know for sure.

Right? And linked to that, I didn't watch Kevin Pritchard's press conference. conference where he did his sort of post-free agency roundtable where obviously this was going to come up. And a number of people were like, I think you should watch it. It's a little bit strange. And so I went and watched it today. And it is a little bit strange. He mentioned good faith negotiations like eight times. And then being out of the blue comes Milwaukee. They didn't see it coming. They didn't see the dame wave and stretch coming. nowhere in there

and then he said that he was asked directly he mentioned a million times like we were willing to go into the tax like way into the tax almost to the second threshold of the tax we were willing to do it and then he was asked directly

like did the halibor and injury change your approach to Miles Turner and he said no no I don't think so I don't believe that frankly like I just can't possibly believe that that's true but I just never kind of

there was no answer of like what was actually offered to Miles Turner. And now he goes to Milwaukee. And I've defended the, I've slightly defended the Pacer's approach in light of the Halliburton injury of, okay, like we think Miles is good, probably on the decline, probably a little too expensive for our taste at this number that the bucks are offering him. we did not perform offensively when the going got real tough in the last two rounds of the playoffs has never been the most intuitive offensive player obviously works very well with Tyrese because of his shooting

we think we can finagle something to replace him medium long term and yes our owners will eagerly take any excuse for us not to go into the tax that sucks that's that's sucks. It's true. I think you can defend it in basketball terms, but, and this is the big but, it's not like you have four years to find a workable answer at starting center. You could pencil Miles Turner in for 28 reliable minutes a game against the best teams in the NBA. Now, sometimes the offense wasn't super reliable. The spacing at least was, even when the shots weren't going in, even when the passing reads weren't there and all that stuff. And everyone's like, well, they have a gap year. They have Isaiah Jackson.

and Tony Bradley and, you know, maybe Thomas Bryan, and they just traded for Jayhuff, you like Jayhuff, I like Jayhuff, we all like Jayhuff. I'm not sure I want Jayhuff starting in the NBA finals in two years. You can play Obie Tappin and Pascal together, okay, whatever. Like, they have to find an answer to this by 26, 27, because the rest of the team has proven that they are a legit championship level nucleus together. I think the players, from what I've heard, are kind of over the shock of the Miles thing and are ready to move forward.

And some of them know they're going to have more opportunities next year with Tyrese out to kind of show what they can do. But that's next year. Like, you don't have a ton of time to find an answer to this question. I don't know what the answer is. I know this. They love Isaiah Jackson, who they just resigned on a good three-year deal. Off an Achilles' tear will see how he looks. I just, I think the A, what did they offer, will never, maybe never know for sure on the record anyway.

And B, what's the actual answer going to be? Is it is a question that maybe I have not paid enough? I've kind of put the question to bed as other free agency stuff happened. But there's got to be an answer. What do you think the answer should be? Like, I think for me, as you mentioned, like I do like Jay Huff. I think he is really going to have to make some strides defensively. And I think him being, you know, having Andrew Nymard, having Aaron E. Smith ahead of him.

I think it's going to help. So I'm curious to see what coverage he ends up landing on on that front. Because offensively, like, I think the shooting, he'll have to bump up the volume, but I think the shooting will be relatively consistent. I think he's a very good screen setter, which should help some of the, you know, the slow pace that Andrew Dempard plays with when he's operating ball screens. He can get to the middle of the floor and stuff like that. So, like, I think J-Helf is a stopgap is fine.

I think if Isaiah Jackson is back healthy, I want to see how quickly he grows defensively because all the athletic tools are there. he just kind of spaces out sometimes. It's just a young big thing. But violet rim roller can drive a little bit on top of that. Like I think he really fits the pace and pressure ethos for Indiana. So if he is healthy and he's back to looking like. It's a good point.

Pace and pressure. He does fit that. Obviously the shooting is like, it's a total 180 for Miles Turner. But pace, pace, pace, pace, he does fit. He's going to fly into stuff and fly into screens and slip. I think without Tyrese, I mean, with Tyrese, they were still seeing a good bit of switches. Without Tyrese, I would imagine they're going to see even more switches than they saw last year. And so having someone like Isaiah Jackson who can grow as a screener, but he's still

fine at it, but really just jets out of slips, I think it's going to be helpful for this Pacer's offense. But stop gap it and then flow into last five minutes of the game. Let's go Pascal and Obie Topping or Pascal plus whichever big is working on that night. Like, I think that's fine enough for this season. As far as the long term action, like you hope, or long term answer, excuse me, you hope Isaiah Jackson solves that. But that's where I think, Losing Miles Turner, losing Miles Turner to the Bucks in particular, and then almost immediately getting the DeAndre Aiton to the Lakers bit all at the same time. It's kind of like, ooh, Indiana really does need to solve this.

So that's one thing I've heard was if there was angst, there were about the decision. A lot of the, there's angst on a lot of levels. Like it sucks at Miles left. He's good. Ownership spending and all that. It was if you knew negotiations were going to be tough, right, and they were going to be tough. And maybe you misplayed your hand. You thought you had them boxed in and you didn't see the bucks threat coming.

But you knew they were going to be tough. You didn't, there was no plan B here beyond Jay Huff. There was no, like, it's too late to get into the Orford Derby, the Aiton Derby. I mean, they've loved Aiton, they gave them the offer sheet, you know, all that. I think that there was some angst around the team about that. that, but I guess we'll see. I just, like, to me, top in Siakum, like, that's a cool answer. Like, that's not going to be defensively viable for 20 minutes a game at the highest

level of the playoffs, I don't think. Real quickly, what is Camp Thomas, Nikaias? What is he? What's going to happen here? What do we make of this guy who scores in bunches who up his assists, significant? last year, still, like, I think only four and a half per 36 minutes, which given the amount of time he has the ball, is still pretty low, but higher. Flashes some good passing skills, some lobs, some dump-offs. Still had a usage rate of almost 33%, which is what you would associate almost with like Russell Westbrook, James Hardin, MVP kind of seasons.

Defensively, but the dude can put the ball in the basket, and he can make a lot of tough shots, and he took more. threes and he shoots pretty well from three doesn't get to the rim that much his rim rate is lower than i anticipated everyone has look the consensus on camp thomas if there is one and he's got some fans and he's got some mega detractors but the consensus is kind of like empty calories ball hog um what do we make of this player who is a restricted free agent floating in the wind i liked a lot of what i saw from cana thomas last year with the context that he has been kind of hoggy in the early of his career, but we all kind of knew that scoring was going to be the calling card. And so top of the scouting report is this dude could put the ball in the basket.

And once he gets in a zone, in a literal sense, it does not matter who's in front of him when he's in a zone. Like just the elevation of the jumper. Like he just has an array of scoring moves that not many players in the league, period, can replicate. And the fact that we did see legitimate playmaking growth from him was probably the most intriguing part of the season for me with Brooklyn. And I'll raise my hand as one of the few non-Brooklyn media, Brooklyn enjoyers from last season.

Give me all the full court pressure and all the things. Played super hard. They did. And I think with Cam, like, watching the pacing improve for him in picking rolls, it is I'm going to see drop naturally. We're not putting two on the ball of view, not very often at the very least. But I'm going to snake this pick and roll and I'm actually going to have a plan as I snake this pick and roll. Sometimes he snakes it twice on the same possession. He'll snake one way and then snake back the other.

other way to the point that his screener is like dude i'm just trying to get out of your way man and but but but like he snakes he doubles snakes triple snakes a lot and he rejects picks more than almost any other ball handler in the league both of those things to me events they come from a place of like my number one goal here is to score the basketball like my number one goal is to score my number two goal is to score my third goal is to like miss a shot and hopefully get fouled so i but he does you said the word snake i wanted that's true. He does it all the time. It does all the time. But like, even with that, like, it felt more of, he leveraged that better. He got defender on his hip and he worked to engage the big more than we saw last year.

And I was, as you mentioned, you hit me up, say, we're going to talk about Cam Thomas. So I decided to get into some of the numbers. I knew I liked a lot of what I saw. Passed on 26% of his direct pick and rolls in 20, 23, 24. That was 62nd of 62 players to run at least 1,000. Just dead last. Him or Brandon Miller were the only players under 30% on that front. They put it up.

That jumped up to 37% this year, which is still low, but that is within the range of John Morant, Jason Tatum, Luca Donchis, they're all around 37%. Obviously, he is not those guys, but in terms of I will look to score, but also look for these late lowdown, these laydown passes, some of these dump off, some of these lobs, as you mentioned a little bit earlier, he's looking for that more. Like, he is using the snakes and using some of the slower down pacing to really leverage the defense more you did last year. I think that's positive growth.

You mentioned a rim rate. That can be higher. the fact that he is as comfortable scoring in the middle of the floor as he is, I think is overall a positive. And to the snake point again, a little bit more of like that Chris Paul, Trey Young, I know you're trying to get back in front of me.

Let me just rise up with the super high elevation jumper. I'd get fouled on some of those. Like, he did get to the line more last year as well. He's got some bulk and some power. Yeah, so like that that part was intriguing to me. So the playmaking inch ago, I think he's always going to be a player that the scoring gravity is going to open up the playmaking more than the inverse.

And I think that's okay. The fact that he's actively making those strides to think is positive. And then very quietly, the Cam Nick Claxton pick a roll, any possession featuring that two-man action, 1.09 points per possession that was a little bit ahead of the Chris Paul Wimby two-man game, the Luca lively two-man game, obviously injury stuff with both of those guys. Garland Allen, Dame Brooke, Dame Janice, Hardens you. Volume difference, but I was like, okay, that is interesting. And I think with the lob thread in particular, with the way that Cam likes to,

probe and snake and all those good things. I think Nick Clacks did ultimately find those pockets of, okay, this is when he's actually going to look to make a move. And being able to kind of find those pockets of space there, like that was intriguing to me. So if he can continue to grow as a playmaker in addition to what we already know

about Cam as a score, like I think he's just going to be a good player. I want the defense to perk. God, the defense needs to perk up for him. I will say on that front, it felt like it can't perk down. There's no perking down. There is no room down. There is no room. down. I will say, and this could

just be a product of the Nets games that I watched versus like the overall season 3. So Nets, people can yell at me if you want. It did feel like if we're looking for positives. It felt like a better first effort season for Cam Thomas, to where I'm going to navigate this screen to try to stay attached. After that,

we relax the shoulders a little bit. Ooh, I defended that action. We're good. If anything else came second side, he's just flat footy. He's behind. Now he's chasing. Brooklyn has the late switches can be a problem. But like the first effort was at least. better. I will take any baby steps we can take. Because again, the scoring is just there. Like for him to, oh, go ahead. No, no. So, so you said a lot, like, the growth was real. Like,

the assist numbers are what they are. His passing was like qualitatively better. And I went back and watched a lot of film to remind myself, because it's been a while. He missed the end of the season with an injury. But the one word you said that really stuck out to me did diving in was late. and you can pass on 30, what you say, 37% of his direct pick and rolls in line with Luca, Tatum, whatever. I believe that stat having watched the film. But there are passes that keep the offense moving. And there are passes where because all you really want to do is score, you've gotten into traffic, picked up your dribble, and you're in jail. And the defense is already rotating back to the guy that you're passing to.

and the offense kind of stalls out. There's a lot of like pass as last resort, pass because I'm in jail, passes in that reel. And some of the passes of last resort work because he is a guy who can draw a ton of attention. And even if he passes late and as a last resort, Nick Claxton's open at the rim or Cam Johnson's like semi open in the corner. And that's good enough for those guys to get a shot up.

But like there's still the mind, but one of my favorite things to watch with Camp Thomas is when he gives the ball to his screener, all he wants to do is get the ball back. Like he's like, all right, let's go back. Let's go back for a handoff. Let's go back. And it's almost like they're playing two on five. And everything around them is an afterthought for him until he gets to be in jail.

And there are a lot of players like that. That's fine. Passing is really, really hard. We were going to do a Jabari Smith Jr. A deep dive, which we're going to have to postpone because we're going too long. And I want to talk about the Pistons. But like all of these guys, like, you watch them see. A half second late and then think, okay, I can make this pass, and then you can't because that

half second is everything. That half second is the difference between you and a really good passer, and then the Yokic pastor see it, I half second earlier than even that, or a second earlier, I anticipate, or create it. And that half second is everything, and it's hard. There are a lot of guys like that, and it just makes me think, like, I've always been, like, there's something, I've always said there's something here. with Cam Thomas. There's something.

And he did grow. I just don't have any faith that I still think this something is this is a guy that can come off the bench on a good team and just go nuts for five minutes while the best players are resting and hopefully carry our offense. I'm not sure that I want him starting at any point on a good team.

I don't think that's unfair, especially with the defense still need to come along. I think first comp that came to mind, just Jordan Poole in the Warriors championship year. We can just let you go. We can let you rock. If you're playing well enough, we'll let you close.

And we can kind of go from there. But he's a much better passer than Camp Thomas. Jordan Poole's a pretty creative passer when he wants to be. That's true. And like he does need to get to that level, which is why, again,

I was impressed by some of the strides. I think part of me being impressed is because, like, the baseline for him was as low as it was for him as a passer in terms of willingness. But like, the growth was there. I think if you wanted to zoom all the way out, just what is the best person of Cam Thomas.

Eventually, He needs to play with multiple players that are just better than him. So you mentioned him coming out the bench. But even if he is a starter, a Cam Thomas that is third in the pecking order and can save some possessions for you late in the clock is a lot better than Cam Tom's who are the son of our offense. I don't know that he knows how to be that.

Like, I don't know that he knows. Like, that's what I mean by when he runs a pick and roll and passes to his screener, all he's thinking about is, can I get the ball back? I don't know if he knows how to be like the fourth option and how to move and space and do all those things. other thing I would like to see, he's like a pretty powerful strong guy, and he often doesn't play like it. He loves fadeaway jumpers, and he loves dribbling sideways. And I found a lot

of stuff on his clips where he'd get a small guy switched onto him. Like, there was one clip with Darius Garland. I'm like, dude, overpower that guy. And instead, he sort of dribbles sideways and backwards and takes a 19 footer and makes it, you're like, yeah, but can you, I don't know. Anyway, next topic. I want to, as we close out the summer, I want to kind of pick a team. and I did all my WTF teams last week. Pick a team that's been under the radar and interesting and deep dive it for 10 minutes. And so we're going to do that today with the Pistons.

And I've been interested in how much, particularly Bill Simmons, has kind of not been super excited about what the Pistons. It's been critical of what the Pistons did this offseason, particularly with the Duncan Robinson contract, which it turns out is way partially getting. guaranteed for years two and three. Because I look at the Pistons and I'm like, I kind of like what they did. And one of the reasons I kind of like what they did is they lost Schrooter, wildly overpaid

by the Kings, no clue what was going on with that contract. And yeah, they lost him, quote unquote, without replacing him. But they're replacing him with a guy that I think is one of the most intriguing and important young players in the league now, and that's Jade and Ivy. And so if you look at it as Ivy comes back from injury, becomes Dennis Shrewd, although I think they're going to start Ivy and then stagger him with Cade. Karis Levert replaces Hardaway Jr. Duncan Robinson replaces Malik Beasley. All the young guys get a year older, a year more experience. I kind of think that is at worst a wash.

And I think Lavert Robinson versus Hardaway Beasley is actually kind of an upgrade. And if Ivy stays healthy, I think they're going to be better than they were. last year. Yeah, like, I don't think that's unfair. I think to the Ivy point quickly, I want to see what the initiation from him looks like. As you mentioned, him kind of being staggered with Cade in particular.

I think the idea for Ivy was that he was eventually going to be a guy that can run some offense for you. In addition to, can play off okay, the tag bent defenses, and just kind of just put defenses in peril because of how well he's able to get to the rim and finish. Or you want to finishing the perk up, but in theory he ultimately gets there.

and he looks so much more comfortable operating handoffs to pick and rolls, which isn't a problem. But as you're talking about him directly replacing Dennis Schrooter, I think overall as a player he can end up being better as soon as next season. I do think it's going to look different. And so I am curious to see just how Detroit plans to scheme around that, or if I just gets better and just ultimately running things offensively. So that's probably my biggest question mark for me,

because I think I don't question him being able to play off K, like quietly grew as a spot-up shooter. Again, if the defense is already bent, he can attack those and can play make from there. Just what does that look like when he's actually running units? But two Karras Lever and Duncan Robinson in particular. Like, Karras being a legitimate shot creator, I think it's just a massive difference from what you were getting

from Tim Hardaway Jr. or even Malik Beasley. And you don't want too much of it, but you want just the right amount of it when you need it. And he can do that. It's when it's the too much games, unless he's on a heater, but I think Kier's pretty good. good two years, $29 million? Like, I think that's a good contract.

Yeah, it's not a contract. If it doesn't hit, it's not a contract that's going to hurt you because of how short term it is. And I think they, I think Detroit left that playoff series saying, okay, we need someone else that can get something off the bounce when K. Does it have it going? So having cares. And even Duncan, who isn't a traditional get you off the bounce guy, but he has grown

as a driver. The two-man game with him and Bamada Bio popped almost immediately once he got real rotation minutes in Miami. And he's grown as a passer on top of that. So I'm excited to see what him plus Jalen Duren is going to look like in that two-man game or even Isaiah Stewart who doesn't have like the same like pass on the move juice as Dern may have but he's just a bone crushing screener and so that's going to be a fun pairing whenever we see it so I think the offense has gotten better I don't think you're going to lose a bunch

defensively and so I can absolutely see a world in which Detroit is just better like one if you just get more Assar Thompson yep bingo and he again I don't think he ultimately qualified but he is he is an all defense caliber guy already just in terms of the actual talent if he plays enough minutes and if enough people watch Detroit like he should just be an indie conversation for all defense next year. We'll say that now. I think the defensive foundation is strong. I liked a lot of what J.B. Bickerstaff

did with the offense last year. Naturally getting more shooting around Cade is helpful. But something that I've noted very early on in the season, it's like, okay, they run in action. There are a lot more handoffs in the middle of their possessions now. Like if we don't have it, we are flashing Jay LaDern to the free throw line. We're flashing Isaiah Stewart to the free throw line. We're getting into a handoff or Chicago action or whatever. We're getting

into something else. And as simple, and as simple as that is, just having that added flow, I think it's will be helpful. And if you maintain that with a guy like Duncan Robinson who can bobbing weed behind these handoffs, can pull up, can sidestep, can slip in these nice balance passes. Like, I think, I'll toss this question to you. Is Duncan Robinson already the, what's he, the third best passer on that team? Ooh. So it's Cade.

Who's number two? Ivy, by default? Like, would that be Ivy? I mean, I think Duren's a pretty good passer for his position. I think Assar Thompson's a pretty good. pass or two. And so like I part of the reason I'm optimistic about the Pistons, aside from liking the offseason moves, I guess more than some people did, is I don't know that there's an Amen level leap coming for Asar Thompson because he doesn't have the ball skills quite at the same level and

his shooting is even further behind than his brother. But I think there's a potential big leap in his all around game coming. And they found something in the playoffs with Duren and Asar Thompson and playing off of each other from like the foul line to the dunker spot and crashing the glass. And this is why Ivy to me is the most interesting player on the team and one of the most interesting players in the conference. Because the Pistons, I think, know at this point, Cunningham, Thompson, Duren is a foundational trio for us going forward. We want Ivy to be a fourth guy in our foundational trio. Ivy and Duren are both up for extensions right now. We want to get those guys.

Financially, there's a world in which we can have all four of those guys, and it's not apron level crippling for us because we can negotiate hard with them and get them on good numbers. And it requires Ivy to play well enough off of Cade to make it work. And shooting last year, it worked. He shot 45% on catch and shoot threes, 35% on pull-up threes. Those were massive improvements. Were they real? Shot looks good to me.

I went back and watched it. It looks good. I don't know, 45% I'm catching two or threes, but it looks pretty good. It's the feel, it's the, he's going to have to run a lot of the offense either way, and it's the feel stuff in traffic that I think needs to really level up for him. Like his turnover rate is still pretty high. He tries, like pocket passes and lobs that just are not there, and you're like, what did you see here?

Or he gets sort of outthought by good defensive big men. they out cat and mouse him in the paint and trick him kind of into throwing bad passes. But he's got speed. He's got a nasty in and out dribble. He started to slow down last year and get guys on his hip and see, see, you know, the next step after that wasn't quite there, like making the right pass, but it's coming. And, you know, I just, but he, it's going to be really interesting. Just the staff that I looked up with Kate on the floor and Ivy on the floor,

They were outscored, but that's not what I'm here to say. I'm here to say he ran 12 and a half pick and rolls per 100 possessions with Cade on the floor. That's a pretty low number. With Cade off the floor, 43 pick and rolls per 100 possessions. I mean, that is as big of a jumping roll as you will see. And he's got to get more efficient in both circumstances, but I just want to see how that blends. And even like there were just little hints of can they have a two-man game between them? Like, if you're hiding your smallest guy on Ivy, can you put them into actions where he screens for Cade?

Or even they run a split action with Duren holding the ball and they've screened for each other and you can get Cade in a seismic match. Like, there's a lot of stuff to explore with him. And I just can't wait to see how it goes because if he hits in the right way and accepts the right kind of rule, there's really something cooking here. I think they're going to be really good next year. And Assar Thompson, I just watch out. That's all I'm saying. He's going to be fun. Two quick things I would add, just to your point about using Ivy as a screener.

That was part of the intrigue for Detroit's offense in their series against New York. They did explore more with double drag. A lot of that was just, let's have one of the shooters that's the first screener. But in theory, you could have Ivy there and see, do you want to switch that first one? Because teams normally do. And if you don't, you have a guy trailing Cade. And that's never where you want to be with the kind of crap that he has. So that can be fun.

And in terms of Ivy inside the ark, he needs a floater badly. There you go. He really, he really needs a floater. or he needs to clean up the footwork on that. Because I think a lot of him driving in too deep or trying to force these passes is because he's driving past like the floater window. And he's not comfortable taking those or he's more comfortable taking like short pull-up

jumpers than he is with actual floaters. And I think if that comfort grows and if that efficiency comes with it, you'll see more of those passes open up. Like I like that he sees a lot of the stuff or that he's at least seeking it out. But he has to become more of a scoring threat between like that 7 to 12 foot range. And I think that I'll open up some stuff for him. A couple of last Pistons notes. They own all their picks and a bunch of second rounders.

They owe no picks. So they're in good trade position. They're not known as like a super progressive trade team. That's number one. Number two, I was always a Kate Cunningham booster. I could not believe how quickly people went almost out on him. He's legit. What happened last year is 100% legit.

He's an all-N-B-A-level player. Maybe not first teams, maybe not second team, but right now he's an all-emba little player. And the reason a star is so interesting, and even Ron Holland off the bench, too, who was just not ready, I think, as an offensive player last year, but does a lot of stuff defensively in particular. The reason those guys are really interesting is that Tobias Harris question looms over this team in terms of like, do they bring him back after this season when he's a free agent? At what cost do they bring him back? and how those other young guys perform, I think, will inform their answer. I bet they would like to bring him back because he just emerged as such a fun, spunky veteran leader for them in a way that I had never really seen him before.

But there's something cooking here, and what they did to the Knicks and pushed the Knicks was legit. And I just, I can't wait to see particularly how Ivy looks. All right, Nikai Stunker, what do we got coming up for me this week? Ooh, we. Well, a lot of sports business classroom stuff here in Vegas. Then head to Indy for W All-Stars, so a lot of content on that. coming over the next couple of weeks. We're going to recording the DunkerSpot podcast at some point.

Steve is also out here doing the SBC thing, so we've got to figure out what the schedule is in light of that. But Dunker Spot podcast is going to be the big thing. Outside of that, doing some writing for Bleacher Report. So if you're trying to get more into the W, doing some things on that front, I have a player ranking coming up, which I'm sure everyone is going to be incredibly normal about. But outside of that, it's just watching a bunch of hoops.

Just watching a bunch of hoops. Last quick Detroit thing, I would like to see them be a Lori marketing team. if that ever comes to a head. Oh, so that's, what a great place to end, because I've already done my Lowry Markinan and is now the most intriguing trade option in the entire league. It's all quiet on that front right now, I think. But let's make it loud and go get Lowry Market into Detroit.

I love it. Nikai's Duncan, if you want to know what's going on in the NBA and the WNBA, what the actual basketball, the basketball that's being played on the basketball court, nobody's watching more than Nikai's. Thank you, bud. Thank you. All right, that's it for the Zach Lowe Show. Time to go mingle in Vegas,

maybe watch some Summer League basketball. Thanks to Jesse and Jonathan on production. We'll be back later this week. Who knows? Maybe we'll get some news between now and then. You never know in the NBA can get crazy. Just when you think it's stopped, it could start up again. We'll see you soon on the Zach Lowe Show.

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