The Zach Lowe Show - Finding Potential Giannis Trades With Kirk Goldsberry. Plus, Sean Fennessey Joins for Mets Corner.

Episode Date: December 4, 2025

Zach is joined by Kirk Goldsberry to find potential Giannis trade partners, including the Knicks, Hawks, Spurs, and Rockets; share their thoughts on Chris Paul; and discuss the Thunder’s unbelievable start (2:07). Then, Sean Fennessey joins the show for an offseason edition of Mets Corner (1:21:44). Host: Zach Lowe Guests: Kirk Goldsberry and Sean Fennessey Producers: Mike Wargon, Jesse Aron, Jonathan Frias, and Billy Gil Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available Shopping. Streaming. Celebrating. It’s on Prime. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode is brought to you by Mickelope Ultra. Playoff season is here. So what better way to get into the spirit of things that with a tournament of your own? Compete to see who can make the best tip. Test your basketball skills with the game of around the world. Even better if Mickelope Ultra is on the line, especially since they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets,

prizes and more. Mickelope Ultra Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at micolubeultra.com slash courtside. Mickelope Ultra Courtside, 25 to 26, no purchase necessary. Open U.S. Residence 21 Plus. Begins on October 1st, 2025 and ends on June 30th, 226, multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelope ultra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. Coming up on a loaded edition of the Zach Lowe show, the NBA had a day on Wednesday.

It started with the unceremonious departure of Chris Paul from the L.A. Clippers sent home. What happened? why? It escalated with some Janus trade buzz, kind of renewed, kind of the same old from the summer, but with a little more urgency because the bucks are losing. And it ended with Janus falling to the court with an apparent injury, a leg injury that we learn on this podcast is indeed a calf strain that's going to keep them out a few weeks. We go through everything that's going on. What's going on with Janus? What should the Bucks do? What teams should get into the Janus derby if it ever happens, what do they have to offer? What should they not offer? What are the best fits? What's

actually going to happen here? We get to Chris Paul. What happened? What happens next? We talk Thunder who are hovering over all of these decisions. If you're trying to buy on a star like Yonis, you have to decide, do we take our shot at this 21 and one juggernaut now? Do we try to wait a couple years? What should we do? How are the Thunder even better than they were last year? We do a deep dive on the Thunder and then Kirk Goldsbury and I pick very tentative, very early. We just fly through the All-Star ballot. How does it actually work? Who should be on the All-Star? our team, loaded episode. And then Met's Corner is back.

The baseball offseason is here. Sean Fennessey is here to guide me through what's going to happen with the Mets, what's already happened with some trades and signings, and to talk a little movies. Yeah. It's all coming up on The Zach Lowe show. This episode of the Zach Lowe show is presented

by Amazon Prime. The holidays are here and they move quick. Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery is your miracle play getting whatever you need they're fast. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait. From stocking suffers to that perfect gift for the MVP in your life, it's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now.

The Zach Lowe Show, it's Thursday morning, and the NBA is going full blast with drama, mellow drama, all kinds of drama. Kirk Goldsbury, how are you? I'm well, Zach. How are you doing, bud? I'm good. Yesterday, it turned into a day. It turned into a day.

started with Chris Paul's unceremonious exit from the Los Angeles Clippers being sent home and then FaceTiming with fellow Clipper expats, Blake Griffin and D'Andre Jordan, laughing almost too uproariously in the screenshot that I saw like a sitcom audience trying to really ham it up. And then it ended in the middle with, well, in the middle there was Janice, I guess, still discussing. This is a really long discussion. He really needs to go rent like a French salon and discuss it with lots of people. people, but he's still discussing the possibility of discussing the possibility of a trade or his future in general with the Milwaukee Bucks as they continued to lose games, although they won last night

without him. And then it ended with Janus suffering some sort of injury, non-contact. Maybe Doc Rivers said contact, and it is not apparently an Achilles tear. It's going to be a calf strain, which could cost him several weeks. I mean, if it were an Achilles tear, it's just like, let's have a hiatus for a little bit. Okay. Let's, can I, can I hit you with some big questions before we get into the fake Janus trades and all this? Hell yeah.

Big question number one. What if anything has changed since the summer when Shams Trania, who wrote the story yesterday, kept reporting that Janice was looking into his future from the fall in October when Shams Tronner reported that Janus was looking into his future and had zeroed in on the Knicks as the only team. that he was really interested in going on. And I'm just going to read a sentence from that October 7th story, if I can find it. And this is about his meeting with John Horst, Janus's meeting with John Horst in Greece.

After Horst expressed confidence in the Bucks roster in his moves, Ticompo erred his concerns about whether this team could truly achieve championship contention. It can't. And he wanted to explore whether there would be an alternative path forward for both the team and the player, league sources said. So amidst all that gobbledy gook at the end, wanted to explore whether there would be an alternative path forward for the team and player, sounds a lot like a very strained way of saying,

wanted to explore the possibility of getting traded to hell out of Milwaukee. So what, if anything, has changed since then, Mr. Goldsbury? Or is this just a sort of like, all right, we're going to keep throwing this into the news just to do it situation? Yeah, great question. And I think it's the right question because the thing that's changed is the thing that John Horst said when he was confident about this moves is that, hey, we're going to contend. And relatively weak Eastern Conference, we have the best player, arguably, in the Eastern Conference and you, my friend, and we built a good roster around it. We got Miles Turner.

And he was coming in saying all this stuff, well, particularly when Janus has not played and you've looked at the same numbers I have, I'm sure, the roster. is not very good. The team is 10 and 13. When Janus has missed games, they've looked woeful, incapable of winning games. Other than last night, the nice win against the Pistons last night,

should be noted. Well, it's been such a telenovela, bro, the last 36, 48 hours, starting with whenever the Washington game was. And you and I were texting back and forth about the last play down the stretch where Yonis shoots that fade away

and the mid-range gets tangled up with his old buddy, Chris Middleton. and then doesn't run back on defense. Took a little nap. Covered as a, he could look like me on the beach trying to take a nap,

covering my eyes like this. Just say, you know what, guys, I'm out of it now. Yeah, bottom line is that game and that performance raised some eyebrows before the real soap opera kicked in this week. They lose at Washington with Janus. That's the headline.

So what, what if anything has changed? The bucks suck, bro. The bucks do not look like they're ready to make noise in the east. And if you talk to anybody who's played with Janus or worked with Janus or coached Janus, what do they say? This dude wants to compete for championships. That's the most important thing to him.

And I think he did give the team a chance in the first month of this season to really demonstrate that they could compete for the Eastern Conference crown. And I think what if anything changed? That became clearly not a possibility. The bucks don't have it. It's over. they can pin a lot of hope on Kevin Porter Jr. coming back and he's looked good since he came back, looks fast, athletic, all the things you want Kevin Porter Jr. to be. They're not going to win the East. They don't have it. That's done. And that is indeed what has changed. And that matters for a couple of reasons. Number one, it makes yesterday's story actually meaningful to me because if they continue to lose games over the next month and they're just wildly out of it, I do think that increases the chances that an in-season trade could happen. It also matters because the bucks don't control their draft picks.

And there's been this sort of school of thought among teams thinking about this, that, well, maybe that means they would prioritize getting good prime age or veteran players back to stay relevant while they weighed out this. We don't have our draft picks thing. And you look at the team and it's like, like they're so far away from relevant without Janus that I don't even know that such a trade. So you give them, I mean, we're going to name a bunch of guys. we give them like one really good like sub-Yannis level all-star. Are they relevant? You give them Carl Anthony Towns.

Are they relevant? You give them Alper and Shengun. Are they relevant? I think they're still pretty fucking far from like relevant. And so that matters too. The other question, I have another big question for you. Ready? Yes.

I was talking about this with the GM yesterday. There's been this thought that the Bucks would have more leverage at least or at least more opportunities, pathways to trading Janus in the offseason when the apron stuff loosens up and guys enter free agency. And I was talking to a GM yesterday. He said, I actually don't think that's true because the league, I guess south of Oklahoma city in terms of the standings appears to be so open and the East in particular appears to be so open that they might be able to gin up of a more frothy bidding war now in the

middle of this seemingly open season than they could in the off season. that's interesting and like maybe actually true. Yeah, and I think some of the teams looking at Oklahoma City have to be sort of humbled in a way. So you asked me, obviously the big thing that changed since October and all the reporting about the Knicks stuff, dude, OKC looks like an absolute juggernaut. And there's this sort of feeling around the league. It's like, man, can we compete with these guys? You look at a team like the Knicks, one of the most likely destinations.

And they have to say, hey, man, we're 14 and 7. are we really that good? So I think that had changed a little bit too. So I look at this from a few perspectives, from a potential buyer's perspective, obviously Janice elevates every team in the NBA. I think what you brought up just now with the context of Milwaukee

is actually the most interesting part about how this could play out. How honest is that organization going to be with its predicament with itself? You know, they have this dead money on the books for a long time. As they approach this process, because I think what you said was really smart, what type of offer should they go for? What type of offer will they go for? I don't trust this current organization to make the perfect decision here.

I don't think they've earned that over the last five years of transactions and draft picks. but man, if I was advising the Milwaukee Bucks, we have to really start to think about the long-term play here, not the Band-Aid play. So I think that from a Milwaukee perspective is one of the more interesting things you touched on there, Zach. A couple of things you hit. Oklahoma City is a looming variable in this

because two of the teams that can offer the best ready-made Janus packages are good teams. the Western Conference. Good, youngish teams of the Western Conference, the Houston Rockets and the San Antonio Spurs. And they, as young-leaning teams, have to ask themselves, and I don't know the answer to this question,

are we better off taking our shot at Oklahoma City now as they're still kind of young, and even though they're champions, or are we actually better off taking our shot at Oklahoma City later when maybe some apron stuff is forced them to make some roster sacrifices. Maybe the lottery pick that they have coming from the Clippers, which is maybe lottery picks they have coming from Utah and Philadelphia, but just focus on the Clippers one because it's unprotected.

Maybe that ends up just falling to seventh and it doesn't turn into this massive, oh my God, the league is in trouble. I think that's a really interesting question for those teams. And I don't know what the answer to it is. And the other thing you said about, I've already forgot, the other thing you said. What do you think about the Thunder thing? Well, the Thunder are one of the teams that could make an offer, which people would be like, oh, the Thunder could, what are you talking about? That's over. And you know, I said this when I got back from vacation

in August, September. If the Thunder had not won the title last year, this would be a really interesting situation. Unfortunately, they have won the title and they are 21 and one. They're not trading for Yonis. Maybe the best calendar year in the history of the association, 2025, Oklahoma City Thunder. Let's not go tinkering with anything. But if you made a continuum, Zach Lowe, from the best situation in the NBA right now, which is undeniably in Oklahoma, and the worst one, the disaster, it might be the Clippers. And what you have, did you hear that I coined it, the pentagram of hell in the Western Conference of Memphis, the five-pointed pentagram of Memphis, Clippers, Mavericks, Pelicans, who am I forgetting in the, in the pentagram?

I don't know. Somebody. The maps? No, I think, did I say maps if I didn't say math? The kings. Oh, kings. The kings are so obvious that they're like grandfathered into the pentagram forever. Yeah, they're the cornerstone. But imagine this line.

For me, the Clippers and the Thunder have approached team building from a very different philosophy. And I think one of the characters here is the Clippers, too. I think the Clippers have helped change conventional wisdom in the NBA in the 2020. with this, hey, we're going to trade a bunch of picks for this guy on the wrong side of 30, and now look what they got for it. So I think it is a copycat league, and we tend to look at success stories for the copycat thing. But there's also this cautionary tale element. And I think conventional wisdom, when you look at the success of Sam Presti's project in Oklahoma City,

what do you see? Hey, let's build internally. Domination's going to come from within. first round draft picks are the currency of choice in this second apron era. We're going to stock. Why, I think that's actually one of the bigger stories here is our team's going to give a bunch of first round picks. Certainly a lot of the small market teams out West, San Antonio being one of them, I've traditionally been like, we're not, that's our only chance.

Why would I, why would I do that? Look, I don't want to talk about the Clippers, but in their defense, Paul George is like 28 or something. when they did the trade, not 30-something. And I actually think that's not even the right cautionary tale. It's certainly a big cautionary tale. I think the Durant trade to Phoenix is actually the worst cautionary tale of people brainwashing themselves into like, well, it's Kevin Durant. Like, you got to get Kevin Durant at any cost.

And it's like, actually, you don't. Like, if he's 35 years old, you don't have to get Kevin Durant if the cost is that. The other big thing you mentioned was, you know, Milwaukee being honest with itself. this whole story has been framed as what does Janus want and when is he going to press the nuclear button. It's never been framed at because I think the bucks have just not even ever considered this line of thinking, what's actually better for the bucks? And it's probably better for the bucks at this point to hit the eject button, sum up a bidding war, drum up a bidding war rather, and get everything you could get for Janus.

But I don't, I've never sensed that the ownership there or the front office there wants to actually have that conversation. And I get that. The East is so bad. You know, they will recoup more draft picks to trade. I think they can trade three first round picks in the offseason. They're probably like if we could just get to the offseason, we can do another Hail Mary, Drew Holiday, Dame Lillard, Miles Turner. Do we have another Hail Mary in the bag?

I just, you know, with Yannis at 31 and injury issues like cropping up, not infrequently, particularly in the playoffs, I don't know that that's right. Okay, can we go through some teams? Oh, yeah, let's do it. I don't have them in any order. I'm just going to come out and say right off the bat, I think Atlanta is the best team for Yannis and for the Bucks. For the very simple reason of the Bucks,

I think the Bucks are going to have to aim, as I said before, much more at the future than, oh, my God, we've got to stay relevant now. And the challenge is they don't control their picks. And so the easiest solution to that is to get their own picks back. And that's where they go to Atlanta and they can get this. It's 2026 pick from New Orleans slash their own pick, the bucks, and get the best of that or get both of them, basically, because they already own one of them and one of them is theirs.

They can get a piece of their own pick back in 2027. And, you know, look, we can sit here and do the negotiation of who's in the trade, who's not in the trade. They can get other future picks from the Hawks. But I think if you built a trade around Trey Young, Rises Shea, those two draft assets, other draft assets. The Hawks will hang on to Jalen Johnson for dear life, and I actually think that's going to be a deal breaker for them.

I don't think they do it if the Bucks are Jalen Johnson or bust. They like the way they're playing now. They're seeking an answer to the Trey Young question, and this one is the one that could fall into their lap. I don't know if that's going to be enough for Milwaukee. Atlanta also has this other sort of angle, Kirk, of like, if we do nothing, if we don't trade for him, and somebody else trades for him,

and the bucks kind of semi bottom out for a year, that actually helps us because we have the best of the Pelicans pick and the Bucks pick. And if the Bucks pick leaps the Pelicans pick in the lottery, well, holy shit, we have that. It guarantees us a top six pick and a loaded draft. That, to me, though, is the more ready middle. And you consider a nipick like, well, Janus, Daniels, Jalen Johnson,

the spacing's not great. It's Janus, and the spacing's already not great as is, and they're playing pretty well. They would be my number one sort of at least Eastern Conference destination. I think I still have the Nix's number one, but I think everything you laid out is perfect. And I would even argue that from a two-team perspective, this makes the most sense. But with the player preference in mind, I still put them as a solid number two or three. I think the Trey Young thing is perfect, like you said.

I think everybody in Atlanta is sort of like, how is this going to resolve? You use the term fall in my lap. Yeah, if they got Janus and didn't have to give up Jalen, Jalen Johnson, that's a really scary team. Quinn Snyder, this team is already firing on all cylinders. I think in an open Eastern conference, the talent, the defensive ceiling goes through the roof when you add Janus to this group of wings and length already. And like you're saying, like the parting of the talent from the Atlanta perspective here does make a lot of sense.

But the sneaky thing you brought up, Zach, is I think that that part where they have the best of those Pelicans bucks out your picks, that really makes me want to just see the bucks go get bad. And I think that's a non. That's an interesting part of this, this whole economy is like, oh, if I'm on C-Sala and I'm, in Atlanta, I want to see how bad the bucks can get. So do I want to help the bucks become a middle of the pack team in the east by giving him Trey Young? That's a not, that's a relevant part of the calculus for Atlanta. Particularly if you are optimistic about the young core of the Hawks already.

Yeah. And risk averse as a front office decision maker. And I don't know that I don't know how to characterize Ansi in that, in that sense. And I, and I would respect there, we're not giving you, Jill and Johnson. And I've always been conservative of like, I don't like trading up 10 years in age. And Jalen Johnson is going to make the All-Star team this year. He's really, really good. Nicks, they're on my list.

I did this with Ian Begley in October. I don't really see a deal that makes any sense for the bucks. And as you said, this would require Janus to put his thumb on the scale. And I went through all the fake trades. You know, you could do cat alone. That does nothing for me. you could do bridges in Anandinobe. I don't think that does anything for the bucks,

and I'm not sure that the Knicks are, you know, like, their Knicks are pretty thin after that. The best one I came up with was Kat and Ananoby for Janus and Kuzma. It's an interesting one. I just don't think any of these do enough for the bucks. And if I'm them, I'm just, I'm not doing, I'm not doing these deals. I'm telling Janus, sorry, like we're not trading you for big contracts that we're not going to be able to flip for really good stuff.

Sorry, we're just not doing it. Well, you're a really reasoned man and a basketball expert, and I agree with this. I agree with everything you just said. The issue of how likely are the Knicks going to get Janice onto Ticcumbo ultimately boils down to who has the steering wheel here? Is this one of these deals where the superstar can pick his place? Because that's the only way the Knicks become the favorite. And I want to be very clear. That's how I'm reading the situation.

This feels like I'm in Anthony Davis and I want to go to the Lakers moment. Um, not because the Lakers have the best package, but because, excuse me, but because that's, that's where the player wants to go. And so I think underneath all of this, these fake trade packages is what's best for the bucks versus how much power Yonis has here. Um, I pick the Knicks as the favorite because of the Yonis power element. I don't like this for the bucks. I don't like if I'm advising the Milwaukee bucks and what's best for the franchise long. term. The Knicks aren't your best trade partner here. The Knicks aren't your best trade partner. Look, they can throw in, you know, swap rights on some of their picks that have already been swapped or the rights to their picks that have already been swapped or whatever you want,

whatever the right phrasing is. It's not, it's just, and the Knicks also have to ask them. So are we, are we already the best team in Eastern Conference right now? I'm not sure that they are, but they might already be. When Begley came on, I floated the, should the Knicks trade Brunson for Yannis. And it's like, that's the nuclear output. that they're not going to consider. It's a family affair. Before we go to the West teams, can I bring up another East team

that I think would have to be taken more seriously than they would have been a month ago? This team is over the second apron, so it's extremely hard for them to do this, but they can do it. There are pathways to do it, and it's Cleveland, who lost again last night,

and over the summer, the package I had imagined for Janus was Garland and Alan, not necessarily both going to Milwaukee because the Cavs cannot aggregate salaries as is now and they make like, I don't think, like, $70 million combined or something like that. No, $60 million combined.

So, five more than Yonis only. But it was more Allen to Milwaukee. Now they have Miles Turner already. I don't know what you do with that. Garland to a third team, the picks that that team gives up going to Milwaukee, It doesn't necessarily triangulate the picks so that I get like really golden chip picks. Maybe it may be, but maybe I get a couple bites of different teams draft picks this way.

What has happened since then is that Garland has been injured basically the whole season. He's played like a half a dozen or so games and not looked good. Alan has seen his minutes cut a little bit. And I don't know exactly what to make of that as the Cavs trend to, hey, we like this Mobley at Center thing. a little bit more. The team has not been as good as they'd hoped. Now, they've had a ton of health issues even beyond Garland. We don't need to list them all off.

And Mobley has not yet made the leap. And I've been a massive Mobley optimist. I think he's already a very good player, an all-star player, a second-team All-MBA player last year, and deservedly so. I think the Mobley as the centerpiece of a Janus deal discussion is much, much more interesting to me from the Cleveland perspective than it was just a couple of months ago because this more and more just looks like it's Donovan Mitchell's team. It's Donovan Mitchell's timeline. He's been by far the best player on the team this year. And I don't know how much like

Evan Mobley's really good and he's really young, 24 years old. They're going to have to add more to it than that. And there's apron restrictions to, you know, above all this, they don't have picks to trade. I don't know how workable it is, how much more of the bucks would ask for. it's a more interesting idea. Like I was a no on Mobley two months ago. Now I'd probably like, we got to have some meetings about this and I might actually do it because we look a little bit. Broken is too strong of a word, but not awesome right now. Yeah.

And the other data point that I had with Bill on this topic last week, we're not about Janus at that time. It was just like we also saw the 2025 NBA playoffs. and they did not look particularly championship ready there. And you can say injuries or whatever. But I think it is a valid destination. I guarantee you the Cleveland Cavs are talking about it. And if I'm Milwaukee, again, like, that's a nice young player that I can either incorporate or move on from it. My time frame is he the single, I think the single best asset the Bucks could get is that draft pick from the Hawks.

I think is Mowbly the single best player that's going to be mentioned in all of our fake trades? I don't know that that's true, but he's up there and he's young. Can I give you another name that I went way down a rabbit hole before I realized something that closed up the rabbit hole for me? Are we staying in the east or are we moving to the west? We're going to stay in the east. Okay, I have one more Eastern Conference team that I think we both need to talk about. But go ahead, man. I want to save the other East teams for the end because I have a feeling I can guess your East teams.

I went a little bit deep down a rabbit hole of in the mold of Mowbly as a centerpiece of Bancaro for Janus, given how well the Bucs have played without Bancero. And then I remember that Bancero is poison-pilled and very, very difficult to trade because his extension is not kicked in yet. That's more of a summertime thing. I got into some Bancero trade machine mechanics. Okay, Nate, before we go to the big Western juggernauts, give me one of your East team that you want to discuss.

Well, it's the other Florida team, dude. It is the Miami Heat. Going back to the bubble, there was smoke around, you know, Miami always has these. You've heard all the intel around Miami for years. They're doing due diligence on people. But they, I remember talking to a Bucks coach at the time being like, dude, one of the Miami coaches is kind of like tampering with our guy in the bubble. And I don't know if it's true or not, but I just remember thinking that.

And then you start to hear about, oh, yeah. They're building around. They're waiting. And so I think Miami has to be mentioned. They are playing well. They are a smart team. They've been able to sort of resurrect careers like Janus's. So I think they have to be mentioned.

Unfortunately, for heat fans, they have one of the more awkward front office predicaments, hindering them from making a big trade right now, which is this big Terry Rozier, cloud and the uncertainty that it comes with. Do they have an extra pick coming back to them? What can they do with Terry Rozier? Will the league allow them to even trade Terry Rozier's contract or not? So I think they're sort of playing with one hand behind their back at the exact time where a potential Janus move for them is available. So I'd love to hear what you have to say about the heat. First of all, I like the idea of them adding always doing due diligence to their hardest working, best condition, court.

Throw that out. We're always doing due diligence. Well, I would ask you this. What's the trade? Well, I think there's a Tyler Harrow play there who's from Wisconsin. One of the weird caveats here is that you have the same agent representing Bam, Atabio, who represent Janus. By the way, we should mention that that agent was interviewing for the Atlanta Hawks general

manager position like in May and June and people could you know people are going to connect dots to his star clients when that happens. I would say that Tyler Harrell has to be the centerpiece and some draft picks. But again, there's there's uncertainty around the war chest that Miami has to even get into this deal. And there's like I said, they're sort of trading with one arm behind their back. But it's clearly if the player involved, it's got. to be, you know, some sort of Wiggins-Hero thing or...

No, on to the next offer. But that's where the draft capital has to come. And Miami doesn't have clarity. I think they're hopeful they'll get compensatory draft pick, but they just have, they have this opacity in their own ability to make a trade right now. But it just feels like something they would want to do organizationally, dating back to the beginning of the Pat Riley time in Miami. I don't think I've ever said or written the word opacity in my entire life.

I've definitely said or written the word opaque, but opacity is strong. The heat can trade two first round picks as of now because of the pick they owe Charlotte. That's all they can trade. They can trade some swaps. The negotiations begin and end with Collelware. If Collelware is not in the deal, then we're just not talking because Tyler Hero, Andrew Wiggins. That's cool. like those guys are fine.

They're not keeping me relevant. We're still going to suck. We don't get any golden chip picks because if Janus gets traded to the heat, the heat are going to be good. It's Ware or bust. And Ware is making a huge leap. He looks like a future, you know, like potential all-star player.

I don't think that's an exaggeration based on how well he's played lately. The fit with Bam is TBD. Yeah. And, you know, if you threw Ware, Hero, Rozier, two first round picks, a bunch of swathes. I still don't think that's other teams can beat that. This episode is brought to you by Amazon Prime. The holidays move quick like a fast break down the court.

Luckily, Prime's fast free delivery means everything arrives on time. Holiday shopping, man, it sneaks up like a surprise double team. Suddenly you're scrambling. We've got a kid, so believe me, Prime is running the show this time of year. Gifts, wrapping paper, last minute, uh-oh moments. It's all covered. Prime's fast shipping is always there for you during the holidays, especially when it's last minute and it just can't wait.

Need some holiday magic. It's on Prime. Head to Amazon.com slash Prime to shop now. You want to do Rockets or Spurs first. Oh, God, we got to do the Spurs. Yonis and Wembe together. Imagine that the Spurs are under the tax. They have two high-level,

young, ultra-young guards that they just picked in recent drafts in Dylan Harper and Stefan Kemp, Castle. They have Devin Vassell's $27 million salary, which I'm trying like, holy hell to keep because he's an A plus shooter and boy, do I need A plus shooting. They have a bunch of mid-sized salaries. They have their own picks. They also, notably from the Bucks, need to triangulate these picks to get good ones. They have a swap with the Kings in 2013. Any swap with the Kings is something I want to get my hands on. They have a Boston top one protected swap in

2028. That doesn't look that value, but you never know. They have like a Mavs, wolves, but probably Mavs swap in 2030. Yeah, the Mavs are in the pentagram. That looks pretty good. You put together, I need all those, or at least two of them, because I need, and I need some Spurs assets. And I'm sorry to say this to Spurs fans, I need Castle or Harper. You can pick, but you cannot do this trade. It can't be just a poo-poop ladder of like Vassell and Harrison Barnes and a bunch draft picks. One of those two guards has to be in it. Spurs fans are going to be apoplectic. But look, Kirk, you have just drafted in three consecutive drafts, Castle, Harper, and Wembe. If you come out of this theoretical transaction with two of those three guys, obviously

including Wembe, this is like one of the reasons you pile up these assets is to do it. You know, that's just the reality. That's the conversation they're going to have to have with themselves. And it goes back to that. Do we want to take our shot at the Thunder now? Or do we want to keep this core together and really save our best shot for later? And I don't know what the right answer to that question is. I lean towards a little down the road. Okay. So my opinion here is based on that. And I think he framed it perfectly. Do you want to take on the Thunder in 2025 with this young group? Or do you want to wait till 2027, 2029, something like that? I land as a former spur myself and this is not inside information.

I just think we have a three-decade sort of DNA track record with this team, organizationally what they value. They don't do this, right? There could be a departure here. I'll allow for it. But if we're going to be instructed by what have we learned about pop and RC for the last 30 years, is like we develop, we draft, we build big threes from our NBA draft. capital and that Wemby Castle Harper Trio, not to mention Carter Bryant, is starting to look

like something, right? I think everybody in San Antonio is excited. I know we're going to talk about them a little bit later. Let's just talk about them now. Let's do it right now. But yeah, they look, they look good. They won in Orlando last night without Wembe, without Castle, and they look like a different group. And Sam Presti and R.C. come from the school of we're a small, we're a small, market Western Conference team. We use the draft. We use player development. We use free agency to decorate around the edges of our core that we build from the draft. And we rarely use trades. We don't do this. Now, Kauai forced our hand in 2018, but we don't use this tool. In part because we want our players to feel secure, feel like they're at home, feel like we're a family.

we build trust in the organization. And when you start trading people, you know, you look at what happened in Dallas, up I-35 from San Antonio, you blow up the morale of a group, you blow up a fan base. So I think it's antithetical to what I've learned about the Spurs to see them getting off of Castle or Harper at this stage. It doesn't mean it can't happen. It just means it would be a departure, Zach Lowe, from what this team has been about for the last two or three decades. So I come out and say, yeah, Milwaukee's right. You should want to call this team, and you should try to get one of those players out. I just think this is not the San Antonio Spurs that I know that they would make a transaction like this. They have to think about it.

And you can pick which one you would most be likely to trade between Harper and Castle. I love both of them. Castle obviously has a year extra under his belt. Harper looks awesome. The Spurs, are seven and two. in their last nine games without Wembe Nama. Massively impressive. And they've had some easy teams,

like at Orlando is a real win. They've got some real wins in this stretch. Their offense is seventh in the league in that stretch. That's super impressive. Dierrin Fox looks like an all-star. Looks like the player he was during the Beam team year. Super duper essential. Castle's also out, by the way.

Yeah. And they just like look like a pretty fucking polished team right now. And their turnover rate is second in the league in that stretch. Like their offense has been crisp and clean and their defense has been good enough. Carter Bryan's get meaningful minutes. Like they've been kind of parked over here because Wembe's out and people don't pay attention to them. When Wendy's Wembe's out, they're playing really, really well. I mean, that Luke Cornett block to save the game last night.

And Jamal Mosley, I thought that was a great play to draw it up. And I had not seen Luke Cornet move that fast, I think, in his entire career. He comes out of nowhere. clean block, just an electric moment. From almost the three point line. Yeah. But it's also the epitome of this Cornette Fox wake up in San Antonio. Because when you look at this exact game last year without Wembe would have been a disaster. This nine game stretch without Wemby would have been two and seven, not seven and two.

And what's happening? Well, you mentioned the offense. Deerrin Fox, Dylan Harper are huge. Like in the fourth quarter last night, the spurs didn't look great down the stretch. but Dylan Harper got some buckets, beautiful and one, finishing. He might be the best finishing guard. We've seen in this league in a few years. And then Fox comes in, hits two huge threes, makes clutch free throws, is setting people up.

And then Cornette, on the defensive end, Zach, he's plugging up the exact hole that they couldn't plug up with Zach Collins last year. And so you add in the shooting of Champany and Harrison Barnes has been great in the Memphis game. earlier this week. They're just deep. And the last point, the last point is you talk to these guys, you talk about Jeremy Sohan, Kelton Johnson, in these diminished roles, now that there's actual depths in San Antonio, oh my God, Kelton Johnson looks good. Jeremy Sohan, in a limited role, suddenly looks great. He's getting in fights. He's grabbing rebounds. But everybody, it's the opposite of the Pence Peter principle. They've been demoted to their level of competence in their rotation. And suddenly these guys look, who were pressing last year, look very comfortable and very effective in role player situations.

I'm glad you shouted out Harrison Barnes. What a guy. Harrison Barnes is playing out of his fucking mind right now. He's 33 years old and the rest of the spurs treat him like he's 42 whenever he does something. You're like, oh, onk out here. He's averaging 13 a game, 49% shooting 43% from threes. He's like hitting pullback threes on the pick and roll and like ice. sowing dudes and spinning along the baseline.

Shout out Harrison Barnes. I didn't know he had that much left in the tank. And I didn't know he would be one of the most reliable three-point shooters in the league, like with pretty good volume. And he does deserve a lot of credit for that. And I've talked to him about it. He said, Kirk, one of the things I learned to do was to not shoot. He used to force a lot of shots.

And now he's really smart about when he pulls the trigger. But yeah, I think, and we're going to talk about Chris Ball. But when Chris left, it was like, okay, who's going to be the old leader in this locker room? And I think Harrison has emerged as like the professional grown-up in the San Antonio ecosystem. And he deserves a lot of shine for what's going on here. And they got them in true Bulls slash Kings methodology. They got him for nothing as a throw-in to a deal between those two teams who, again, Adam Silver,

if you're going to be policing all these things around the league there going on, do not let the Bulls and the Kings trade with each other anymore. It's over. They can't trade players anymore. They can't exchange. They're like two small high schools who have to join up and make a team together to compete with like the big high schools around them. We can't have that. I think, look, it's hard.

Like, it's hard to part with a guy like Castle who looks amazing or a guy like Harper who looks amazing. And I understand the risk aversion to doing it. Fox is the wild card here. When you get that guy at that age and he's playing like this, you have to consider it. Fox plus Janice, plus Wembe, plus who's ever left over out of those two young guards, plus the supporting cast. Like, that's a team that if I'm taking an honest shot at the Thunder now, that team can do it. And I'd have to think hard about it. Houston.

Can I ask you one before we go to Houston? One basketball question that I'm sure your audience wants to hear you talk about. From a basketball nerd perspective, do you think Wembe and Janus together would be the Death Star? or do you think that could be a little bit awkward to figure out with those two guys? We've never seen anything like that. I think the Death Star is Yokic plus a guy like Janus or Wembe. I think Yokic and Wembe is, let's just fold it up for a little bit. But, yeah, look, Wembe's outside shooting is coming along.

Janus is just where it is. They both want the ball. Janice particularly wants the ball a lot. The talent and the length is just so overwhelming that I don't worry about the fit at all. Houston is the more interesting one because they are better than San Antonio right now and could look at themselves and say, hey, look, we're a championship contender now. We don't need to break up our young core to do it. Like San Antonio, they acquired, well, Fox is right in his prime.

Durant is obviously way past his prime. but a player that, you know, whether you want to hear it or not, accelerate your timeline a little bit, along with how well you're playing. They have this Fred Van Vleet contract that's $25 million. He's out for the season. He has a de facto no trade clause because it's of the one year plus one nature of the contract. They have picks from all over the place, which is, again, if I'm Milwaukee, I look at swap rights on the next next pick next year. I'm like, I want that. I look at some Phoenix Sun's draft assets. They have a couple of those left over. But I want those, despite how well this. sons are playing. I want to get as many bites at the Apple from different teams as I can. Unfortunately for the Rockets, I also need Shengoon or Amen Thompson. Reed Shepherd is not could be enough for me. And I bet the Rockets right now want to keep all three of those guys.

Of course. Justifiably so. But, you know, I imagine this team, look, I would be loathe to trade Amen Thompson. But if you did trade Amen Thompson, my starting five could be Reed, Durant, Janus, Jabari Smith Jr. and Shen Gung. Janice and Shen Gune actually would worry me as a fit more than Janice and Wembe. It worries too strong of a word. That's a, like, again, I'm taking an honest run at the Thunder with that group. We can be so precious with these young players, and I'm generally risk-averse trading up in age like that.

But they got a lot of good young players. But I would bet Houston looks at themselves now. And particularly with Shen Goon, he's become such a core piece of what they do and why they function offensively, why their double center lineups work so well. I think, I bet they step away from this and just say, we'll do it on our terms and our terms don't include those guys. You mentioned apples, and I was reading the ESPN fake trades piece, and they have a phrase that I bet you've thought about before. If not, you're going to think about it right. Do they want to upset the Apple cart? Have you ever seen an Apple cart? Have you ever upset an Apple cart?

Don't get me started on apple picking and how much I hate apple picking. I had a rant with Artivitz about this pre-COVID that got. So, yes, I've seen an Apple card. I'd like not to see any more Apple cards. What does it actually mean to upset an Apple card? I'm not sure what you're rolling it down. Like, I don't know. You're just driving or rolling and someone tips it over and the Apple spill.

Yeah, and they don't want to do that. The top five offense and the top five defense, I think. in their locker room, they believe that this group right now could go into Oklahoma City and beat them in a playoff series. I think that Ima Adoka believes that. And I think that's relevant because they have a very, very good team. They have an identity. They have a nice growth profile here going into the future with Thompson, with Schengun, with Jabari. So just like the Spurs, I would say, hey man, does this actually make us better near term and long term? And I'm not sure I agree with it.

So I don't think that Houston is a good fit. And one other point, if Janus goes to the West, has the talent imbalance ever been greater than that in the NBA? If we have Janice and Yokic and Donchich and Wembe and aunt, I'm forgetting some of Yokic, whatever. How about how about Cooper flag? How about incoming draft picks in 2026? Steph Curry. Like it feels like with especially with Tatum and Halliburton sitting out.

If Wembe or if Yonnes ends up going to the West, that's another point. It's like, are all the good players going to be in the Western Conference at that point? So, yeah, for those reasons, I really think Houston's on to something right now. You either think Denver or Houston has the best chance to upset OKC in the playoffs. And that's where I land like, do they really want to do this? That said, the player is good enough where you have to look at it.

And ultimately, they could make that decision. I wouldn't be shocked. I would be surprised. If you went to Rafael Stone and the Fratitas and said, we're doing this, we have to pick one of Amin Thompson and Alper and Shengoon to trade out. Yeah. We have to.

We're just doing it. The owner of Tillman comes in and says we're doing it. Pick one. I don't even know which one they would pick. I'm tempted to say Thompson. I mean, this is just me, my perspective, because Shengoon has been so essential. But Thompson's upside and his defense is so intriguing to me.

And Janus can do. his own version of what Shengoon sort of does for them and can play some center as he gets older. And Shengoon has, like, quietly been just an okay shooter on twos. His three-point shot has been off the charts this year, which is great. Not as efficient as kind of he looks, but I love Schengen. He's a no-brainer all-star for me this year. It's a tough question.

It's a tough question. I think I look at Amman Thompson. I'm like, I just don't think I can trade that dude away. I just don't think I could do it. I think there's three untouchable dudes in Texas. And I think Dallas has one and I think San Antonio's one. And I think Houston has one. I think Houston's is Thompson.

I also would say that you can sort of swap out Shangun and Janus and still have the rebounding, still have a lot of that defensive positioning. The way he facilitates from like the dirk spot or even above the dirk spot as a big guy who can dribble and kind of bulldozes way in. Yeah, bulldoze is the perfect word. It's a little bit different than the soft Turkish touch passes, but it is effective at the same sort of position. But it's a great question, Zach.

All right. I don't want to belabor this much longer. I just think three Eastern Conference teams must be mentioned before we move on. Just mention them. Toronto? Definitely. Has a bunch of big contracts, all their own picks and swaps. No picks from other teams to tantalize me.

but some stuff. Chicago, I mean, this level of boldness is anethma. Anethma? I don't know. Something they don't do.

But boy, would I love to bet against the Bulls as if I can get a bunch of Bulls draft picks? That's a team given the infrastructure around Janus. And by the way, Zellis quietly, just kind of so-so

after a hot start to the season as the Bulls have become who everybody thought they were. And if we're going to talk about marking in endlessly with the Detroit Pistons. We should probably mention them for Yanis. And that's one where, you know,

Jalen Duren is the one where the rubber meets the road in that one. And I can hear Pistons fans saying, well, this guy could make the All-Star at the end of the year. He's averaging 20 and 12. Is he that much worse than Evan Mobley? Statistically, no.

I think defensively still, yes. Hey, you got beef stew there, you know, you got, you can't, you can't just, can't just dismiss it. You can't just dismiss a guy who's a two-time MVP and still one of the five best players in the league.

All of them have to be mentioned. Yeah. I think Detroit would probably ride it out and not dip too far into their asset pool. And the other two, I don't know. Anyway, just wanted to mention them. Detroit would be scary. Well, I have to mention Brooklyn,

because I've heard Brooklyn when I call around the league. Well, dude, I'd say the same thing. But I've heard it. And he likes New York City, supposedly, and they have everything to trade. But ultimately, it comes down to that part I mentioned earlier. The dude wants to compete now. And so I just don't see that unless there is like a Paul George second shoot-a-drop situation where they're going to have. So I think that's a fantasy.

But I've heard it when I've called around about this deal the last 24 hours. So I mentioned it towards the bottom of those Eastern Conference teams, but I've heard it. And I wouldn't be doing my job on the Zach Lowe show if I didn't bring it up. Look, we've heard it for two years, right? As Brooklyn, you know, would they try and get this other player to come together, as they have already done with other players in the past? I just, like, that's either got to be A, Janus puts this some way on the scale. And I don't know why I would do that if I'm Janus,

if I don't have any confidence that anybody there is ready to actually win games with me. Or B, Milwaukee decides they don't give a full. fuck what Yannis wants and Brooklyn bulls them over with anything and everything. And even that, I'm not sure they could beat some of these other offers that we're talking about. But you're right, they do need to be mentioned. Well, and the other thing I've heard when I called around, I don't know if you heard this. It's like, dude, did they miss their chance? Because imagine if they had the Brooklyn deal done, I would say, in the summer before the draft, let's say, somewhere around there where there's all these draft picks that are now human beings in Brooklyn uniforms.

So that one feels like it's it's passed its sell-by date for the optimal chance for that to happen. But again, I'll throw it out. You know what though? Like with these rookies, you know, people are too quick to write them off as like, well, Brooklyn took all these mediocre rookies in the first round. You're two weeks of like, hey, Drake Powell did some stuff on defense and Danny Wolf was in the rotation. And Yeager Joman had, you know, just shot 10 of 15 from three over his last three games. So they go, okay, well, look. Yeah.

Okay, let's switch gears because there's a lot going on. Chris Paul's not going to play for the Clippers anymore after being sent home unceremoniously and after some flight delays from the Clippers. The Clippers then responded by blowing out to Miami Heat on the road somehow last night. I already did the CP3 legacy thing with Bill. It does suck to see an all-time great player go out like this. If this is how he goes out into the Lakers roster spot looks, you know, just sitting there. It's like too, it's too cinematic for he and LeBron to be these geysers together, finally playing together at the end.

Particularly with a team who he sort of was one of the two most important people in building up from a joke to something that wasn't a joke for a while at least. Yeah, for a while at least. Look, he was barely in the rotation. He's old. He wasn't super helpful. And I said this when Bill and I did are, you know, people wanted to know why. What's, it's got to, did he call out James's defense and James went to the front office and said X, Y, and Z? No.

Did he rubbed Kauai the wrong way? I don't think Kauai ever calls up Lawrence Frank for any. Did he rub Tailu the wrong way? Did he love? I don't know the answer. I know that Chris Haines was the first one, I think, to report that he and Ty Loo were no longer on speaking terms. that surprised me. That's frankly a failure of like everyone involved

if you can't even be on speaking terms. But one thing I said with Bill, and I love Chris Paul. I'm a Chris Paul like, he's one of the most interesting characters in the last 20 years in the NBA to me. He is a, he's the point God.

But one thing I did say with Bill is you have these people in your life who are always telling you what the right thing to do was or is, and how you missed the mark or what you should have done in that situation. And even when you come across one of those people who's right all the time because they're a genius and Chris Paul is a basketball genius, you have days when you're like, man, can we just not do it today?

Can I just not hear it? Like, can we just take a little break? And that's the, that's the CP3 thing. I think that's basically all this was was, you're the 14th guy now, man. You're not the point God anymore. And this isn't going great. I still was surprised, though, because, like, wow. But I guess they're going to use this roster spot on a younger guy,

and that makes sense because this team's full of old injured dudes. Old injured dudes and a lot of leeway. And I think that was the cryptic word he posted on social media, leeway. Yeah, I missed that. I got to get my social media game up. That was an Instagram story. I saw the, I've been sent home. I saw the DJ Blake one.

Where did this happen? Leway. I think it was Instagram story. Hey, let us know in the comments where we can see that, guys. But when you talk about the Kauai era clippers, leeway is sort of a term you'll hear people talk about. Like, there's different standards for different people in the group, different arrival times for practice or flights.

And Chris Paul, to your excellent description, is the exact kind of veteran player who would call that, bullshit and I think would get frustrated by double standards in an organization that let's not forget he's the greatest player in the history of that organization and he cares about this organization. He wants to have his jersey in the rafters in the Intuit. And I think you described him perfectly. But if it's true that this leeway thing was sort of a thing in Clippers, Superland, that was just, it was bound to have a conflict with this guy.

That's exactly who Chris Paul is. He's not going to go along with that, and he's going to not stay quiet about it. And to your point, again, excellent description. He wears on people. And what I think about the Lakers would be if he was back with JJ, in my opinion, because they had such, you know, they have a soap opera that goes back 20 years as college players, as high school players and then as teammates. So, you know, I love Chris Paul, too.

I was surprised. It's depressing more than anything that this victory tour is farewell tour, I should say, is just getting blown up. But, man, I hope we get to see him play a little bit more basketball this season, Zach, whether it's in Lakerland or somewhere else. Not a great look for anybody involved, to be honest. and it's not going to save the Clippers season. And I don't want to talk about the Clippers anymore

because I've talked about the Clippers too much for the last eight years. What did you say, at least for a little while? They weren't a disaster, at least for a little while. First conference finals appearance in their franchise history. Terrence Man Game, you know? The name of the Clippers documentary, at least for a little while. Yeah.

We could come up with a better name if we thought about it. But doesn't it seem like the clippers are back to being the clippers that you and I have thought about for 30 years now? It just feels like even when they were good like during Chris Paul Lobb City, something would always happen like the meltdown in Oklahoma City, the Sterling thing, the meltdown in Houston. Then they were good again in the Kauai PG era where as much as people want to rip that trade to shreds, here I am talking about the fucking clippers again, most people would have done. on that trade at that time for this shot at winning a title with these two prime age wings.

And something always happens. The bubble. They just check out of the bubble and choke. Injuries. This tree thing that's still going on. Like something just always happens. And now here we are all these years later. They're six and 16.

And the thunder who are about to talk about are looking at a scenario where they not only are 21 and one, they would have a chance if the clippers continue to flounder at a top five. pick in an absolutely loaded draft. And they also own the Sixers pick, Top Four protection, and the Utah pick, Top Eight Protection. It's ridiculous. Let's talk about the Thunder. Are you ready?

Yeah, I'll see it the All-Star game, by the way. In the Toilet Bowl? It into it, baby. Yeah. Aspiration arena or whatever we're going to call it. Oh, stop. I will want to use as many toilets as possible when I walk around. I want to really luxuriate in the amount of toilets.

So I want to go to one bathroom, wash my hands, go to another bathroom. I want to see how many I can hit in like a 50-foot radius. If it really lives up to the hype. We should talk about the thunder. We've been derelected not talking about the thunder because talking about dominance, they're always hovering over all of our discussions. Let's actually look at the thunder who are 21 and 1. They're hovering over everything in the league.

Every decision that all these teams are making about buying on this guy, buying on that guy is, particularly in the West, when and how do we try to take a shot at this team? Who's 21 and 1 despite J-dub playing, I think, two or three games so far and looks fine, looks good. They are fifth in offense, first in defense by so much that it's a joke. Their net rating is 15 points per 100 possessions, which you need to say would set the all-time record, which they almost set last year.

Has their schedule been easy? Yes, it has. played the Kings three times, the Clippers, the Mavericks, the Grizzlies, all once each. So they've cleaned up against the pentagram of hell. They've played the Hornets, the Wizards, the Pacers. They've played the Warriors and the Lakers without guys with guys missing. They've played the Blazers twice with those guys missing. Their schedule doesn't even get hard anytime soon, man.

They don't play the Nuggets again until February. They don't play the Lakers again until February. They don't play the Knicks till March. They have a couple Spurs games coming up. They only play the Rockets three times all season. Their next four games are Dallas, Pentegram, at Utah, Phoenix, Clippers, Pentegram. They could be 25 and 1. They should be 25 and 1 before they have a set of games against the wolves and the spurs.

And they look better in some meaningful ways than they did even last year. I said before, I took the over at 68 and a half. I said, I don't even. care what the line is. To me, the chances that they win 70 games are better than the chances that they go under this line. They could win 73 games. They're not even stressed out. They're like, Caruso take a few games off to rest your hamstring or whatever. Hartenstein's out for a bit. Doesn't even matter. Lugan's door, like whatever, however many games you need to miss to get your body right. No one's playing too many minutes. It's ridiculous. And I want you to talk about this.

the biggest change from their season last year to this year is free throws. Last year, they averaged 20.4 free throwed attempts a game. That was 26. They allowed 23.7. That was 27. So they didn't get to the line at all and fouled a lot. Their free throw differential attempts minus 3.4 per game per game. This year, they're up to 25 free throws per game, 13th in the league.

And they're allowing 24 attempts per game. So almost about the same number as they did last year. But that comes out in the wash two. They have a free throw advantage plus 1.3 attempts per game. And this is where I want your insight. Free throw rate is way up across the league. There are more fouls. There are more free throws.

The Thunder have benefited from that on offense and not been hurt by it at all on defense because their foul rate was already so high. Now their foul rate is the same. It's like average. How is this happening? I think when we write the story of the Sam Presti era juggernaut, I think they figured out the science of fowling, almost like the spurs figured out the science of the corner three. I think they look at fouls as a strategy. They look at it as something to understand, to manipulate, to test the waters.

I think you can draw a line from Alex Caruso to Chet Holmgren to obviously SGA, was like, these guys know more about the whistle than about anybody else in the league. I think Caruso as a defender embodies a big trend that we saw in the postseason last year and into this season, which explains that big uptick in fouls and points of emphasis, by the way, that the league added in the offseason. And then I think clearly SGA, love it or hate it, is the best foul artisan on the offensive end of the court in the league. And using that off arm and not getting called for it, again, love it or hate it. If the refs aren't calling it, that's just called smart.

And so I think more than any other team in the league, Zach, this organization understands how important fouling is and knows where those whistles are going to come and how to get them and how to not get them. And I think last year they exploited that on defense better than anybody. And Shea exploited on offense, arguably better than anybody. So we talk about what's happening in the foul landscape, which I talked about with Bill the other day at length. I listened to it. It was a great pod, you and Bill. Oh, thank you. Thank you.

It's a highest standard that you guys set. And I come in as the bullpen arm and get a chance. But it is the biggest trend. Free throws are up around the league, for those who didn't hear it. Fowls are up around the league. but you're right to call this out. I just think that the Dagnol and that staff and the team understands where those boundaries are, where those infractions are, and knows how to go to the line and not, not pun intended,

knows how to go to the edge of the tolerance and not cross it. I think they're scientific about that. It's just interesting that the uptick and free throw rate around the league has only impacted their offense in a good way. and I think it's because they were already fouling so much on defense that they were they were sort of like penalized adequately last year. And I don't think they've like dialed back their intensity and physicality. They're allowing the same number of free throws per game. Their free throw rate allowed is the same. The league has just sort of lifted around them and they're being officiated the same way, I guess, but not relative to the league.

I don't watch them and there's probably two or three non calls a game where I'm like, boy, that was a lot of, like something happened there at the rammer. That was a lot of reaching and physicality. There's a few every game that I think they do get away with. But, you know, other teams get away with other stuff. Your only hope against the Thunder is that their half-court offense has one of those stodgy, low pass, two predictable. Threes don't fall. And, you know, they were prone to that a little bit in the playoffs last year and worked their way out of it in some critical moments, particularly against Denver.

and I hate to be the bearer of bad news. I think that's less likely to happen this year for a couple reasons. Number one, the free throws and the primary drivers behind that are Isaiah Joe's getting two or three more attempts for 36 minutes. And A.J. Mitchell being a huge part of the rotation, he's like second on the team in free throws for 36 minutes. And Isaiah Joe's just a better all-around player on both ends of the floor. And if you look now, like when Shea rests, those were at very important.

adventurous, nervy minutes for their offense. Like, J-Dub and Chet, all right, go to work. Well, hey, J-Dub is just returning. Chet is making a leap offensively in his all-around game. And now they throw A.J. Mitchell out there and Aaron Wiggins, who's also making a leap, and it's like, boy, they've got a lot of offense here without Chet. Like, they're fine.

They should be, the numbers aren't great, but when they get healthy, they should be fine. Their offensive efficiency in the half court is, what do you call it, just sort of ho-hum average good. It's not great. I'm going to look it up now. I'll bet you it's top eight. I'm going to bet you right now it's top eight. But you're right to point out it's like, okay, that's a relative weakness for this team statistically. Against maybe elite defenses who will test them with some zone, and that's a test they passed against Denver last year.

And only if they're not on their game generating transition points. If they can buttress a bad half-court offense game with steals, then it doesn't even matter. But I'm going to look at you talk, I'm going to look up their half-court offense. So the signature thing with this defense, obviously, is the turnover force. And more specifically, Zach Lowe, the steals and the live ball turnovers that everybody's pointed out. Everybody on this team seems to be in the top 50 and steals. And what does that lead to points off turnovers? Right now, they have 24.8 points per game off turnovers.

Nobody else is even close to 22. 24.8? Yeah. So it's like a star player on their team is the turnover machine. Right. They have Jamal Murray's scoring average off of turnovers. That's a, I love when you do that. I love to do that too.

It's like that number is like, yeah, you have Jamal Murray. And I think I stole this from Bill. It might have been you. But it's like their defense goes on runs, dude. Like it's also like a star player in that sense. It's like their defense goes on these heat checks where they'll just steal, steal, steal, lay up, lay up. And your next thing you know, it's an 80 run.

And your other, your opponent hasn't even taken a shot. So their half-court offense may be, okay, cool, like you're about to tell me, eighth in the NBA. But I don't even cared. Okay, so it's better. Of course it is. Of course it is. Third. Third.

Come on. Denver is number one, not surprising. Lakers are number two. Oklahoma City is number three. I mean, they're 21-in-one, dude. And their one loss, this doesn't get brought up enough. They were up by 20, and they lose a tough game in Portland by two points. They are.

Obviously, massive favorites to win the championship. That said, they won 68 games last year, I think. I don't know, whatever they won. A lot against, 68 games. And they were in a seven-game series against the Nuggets, who had Aaron Gordon on one leg at the end, and Michael Porter, Jr. with one arm the whole time and no bench. They were in a seven-game series in the finals.

We know what happened there. I think they're meaningfully better this year. but I think Denver and maybe Houston, I think they're going to have a, this is not going to be a coast to the finals for them. I think Denver, I think their offense is still going to be susceptible to some lulls despite all the numbers I just gave.

And I think like if we woke up and it's second, right now it would be second round, conference finals, whatever, and it's 2-2, Pivotal Game 5 in Oklahoma City, I think that's like wildly realistic. I think Denver and maybe Houston are that good. Like, this is, they're the favorites. I picked them to win the title before the season.

Duh, I pick them again now. Duh. I don't think it's going to be as easy in the playoffs for them as it is in the regular season. I thought it would be easier for them in the playoffs than it was last year. I'm glad you brought that up. The last time they look really beat in the playoffs and earmuffs for my friends in North Texas is that Mavs series where Gafford and they just overpowered them up front. They went out and got Hartenstein. But I still think I'm picking them as well.

I still think that's where they can be beaten potentially is with the Stephen Adams, Shangoon, Jabari, just muscle down low. I think that's why I put Houston in there. They are that exact sort of team. I think Hartnstein has plugged that hole up pretty well. He's missing some time this year, but he has been awesome. I mean, this year, he's even leveled up on both ends of the floor. He's a very, very good offensive player and a good defensive player and a good defensive but a very good offensive player.

The scariest thing about the thunder is we're talking about this. And you brought it up and framed it so well too, Zach, is like, okay, if I'm the Spurs, if I'm the Rock, it's like, when do I take this team on? I think it's, if I'm the Spurs, for instance, and I'm biased, like, it's not this year. But then I look at the Thunder, I'm like, well, they're only getting better. It's got to be sometimes. They're not going to be worse next year. It's got to be sometime.

It can't be never. Their core, which of their core players is getting worse? Maybe Caruso. Kenrich Williams. Grosso's been good since he came back. I love Ken Rich Williams. It's not A.J. Mitchell. It's crazy.

Maybe. But yeah. So my point is get comfortable, folks. It's going to be a while. But here's the thing. And you hear this, especially with the clipper's struggles being so magnified in that pick looking so good. You hear, I'm sure you hear it. People on other teams around the league sort of joking, shrugging their shoulders, like, oh, man, it's just a rap.

Like, it's over for a while. And sure, they're going to be awesome for a long time. And this traffic situation is crazy. We even mentioned Topic, get well, Nicola Topich, please. Right. It's never as much of a rap as it looks like it's going to be. Like, it was a rap when Durant went to the Warriors, and they won one title real easily, got pushed to the brink the next year, didn't win the next year, and it was over. This is right.

Between injuries and cap reality. like it looks like a rap. It's just never as much of a rap as you think it's going to be. But yeah, one last point on that. I don't know if it was you or Windhorst I was talking to at the Celtics, um, bucks like conference finals,

the Grant Williams game. But I said to one of all, I was like, we're going to be here for the next 10 years watching these two teams go. It felt like a rap, dude. Um, but yeah,

some big news coming, Zach. We got news, uh, yon us out two to four weeks. Um, that's great news, according to Shams.

That's great news. It's in line with the cap strain timetable. It is a cap strain. It's great news for Janus. It's relatively great news for the Bucks in the league. Those two to four weeks are going to be rough times for the Bucks, considering how helpless they look during Janus' recent injury absence. And I think will only, the deeper they go into the standings,

and he's going to be watching. Like, he's going to be watching how this team plays without him. And the worse it goes, the more the noise will increase. and the more we go from, I thought this should happen in the summer to maybe it does happen in the middle of the season. But overall, like, thank the basketball gods. This was not what people feared it to be. How scary was that moment, where you just went to the floor that quick and just like, oh, God, it was terrifying just as a fan of the league. But, man, I mean, the Bucks fans had a good night after that, if that's possible, with Jericho Sims and A.J. Green beating the Piston.

So they're hopeful they found something here and they have a chance, the supporting cast, to do something they didn't do the last time he missed games. Those guys you just made? Go ahead. Sorry. No, I was just saying, to build on your point, this ensemble around him is up on trial. And they have failed their first test this season. And they have a second test coming up. But what else?

Everybody saw him go to the floor last night. I'm saying the rocket saw it. The Knicks saw it. The heat saw it. and he's already missed time, as you alluded to earlier. This is another part of this now. It's a 31-year-old guy who has a calf strain, and that's part of this equation.

I'm looking at their schedule now. They have an interesting stretch coming up, Philadelphia, Detroit, Boston. I mean, if they're serious about staying in the playoff race, Philadelphia and Boston are games you've got to try to get, like, somehow, some way. And they have a Minnesota game in there, in a Toronto game.

But they also have in the next, I'm looking through January 10th about it. They also have Brooklyn on the road must win. Indiana on the road. Chicago on the road. So they're all road games. Charlotte on the road. Washington. Charlotte at home at Sacramento.

Like that's a few pentagram teams, a few really bad East teams. Like, stay afloat. It's not as bad as it could be. Because if this were a hard part of the schedule, they would just. be drawing dead in a lot of games. Okay, Washington. Washington has their number, though, as we saw the other night. Without Alex Starr, too.

I don't want to, let's, I'm going to table the full All-Star discussion because we've gone on long, but we both picked our All-Star teams. Let me rephrase. I went through the players, and I wanted to do the ballot because I wanted to pick my teams because I wanted to see how it washed out with international and U.S. players. because for people who haven't paid attention to the All-Star changes, and boy, do I not blame you for not understanding how the All-Star game works because God knows I'm just learning it now,

you still pick 12, the voter, whoever, you still pick 12, the voters, the fans of media, whatever, pick 12 from each conference, no positions anymore. So 12 East, 12 West, 24 players. If you, and we need at least 16 American players and at least eight non-American players, if either number falls short of that, then Adam Silver just names more players until you get to that number.

So I wanted to just see, like, if I just eyeballed quick, like minimal research, pick my team in each conference, what do I end up with in terms of U.S. versus international? Yeah. I ended up with, depending on how you count towns, who is probably going to be counted as an American player, I would guess. I came up with, if you count Towns as U.S., I came up with 15 U.S., nine international. If you count Towns as international, I came up with 14 U.S., 10 international. So I need to add U.S. players in either scenario.

What did you get? Yeah, pretty much the same. And for those who don't know, Towns is American, but played for the Dominican national team when John Caliperi was coaching it and now can never play for Team USA, which is unfortunate for those of us who root for Team USA because he's a rare American. big man. But I think for this exercise, I count him as an American players act. I think you have to because it's just helpful. It's helpful to get up to the 16 number. Do you want to just name your 12? Let's do you just just name, just name them 12, 12 East and I'll do my 12 East.

I got, okay, so this is before the breaking news. I have Janus, Jalen Brown, Jalen Brunson, Cade Cunningham, Jalen Duren, shout out. Tyrese Maxie, Donovan Mitchell. And then I go for the on, an adabio, Scotty Barnes. What number is that? One, two, three, four, five, six, and then this is where it gets interesting. I have to put Jalen Johnson in there. And I think I have to put Norman Powell. He's my last guy. Last guy in his Norman Powell. First guy out is probably Evan Mobley. All right, so here's my 12 in these. Again, this is eyeballed.

These are not my final picks. I will make my final picks closer to the time. Jalen Johnson, Jalen Brown, Donovan Mitchell, Cade Cunningham, Norm Powell, Janice, Brunson, Kat, Franz, Franz, Farns, Vosn, Tyrese, Maxi, Scotty Barnes. And I put Mobley and tentatively as the second guy, but I'm wavering, and I would put Duren over him if I switched with apologies to Siakum out of bio. Brandon Ingram, Josh Giddy. And I put Michael Porter Jr.

down. He's having a good year, but the net stink. Give me your 12. But again, preliminary choices, people. Apologies to all Huber Snubb. Give me your West, which is much tougher, by the way, as you usually. Oh, dude. Start with Stefan Curry and Luca Donchich,

Kevin Durant and Anthony Edwards. None of these are controversial. Having even got to SGA, Nicole Eokic, Schengoon and Wembe. Those are locks. Then we go down. any Booker, I have to put Chet in there because I think OKC deserves at least two All-Stars in this game. And then my last one comes down to Austin Reeves, James Hardin.

Got to go to Austin Reefs. I got to reward winning, Zach. When I have these moments with the odds, I got to reward winning teams. Here's where I went. Yokic, Curry, Shengun, Durant. You can actually make an argument that Durant is a borderline candidate, but he's Kevin Durant. What plan that are you on? Well, I mean, look at the names, though.

Okay, let me start over. Yokic, Curry, Schengun, Durant, Luca, Anthony Edwards, SGA, totally agree on Chet. He's got to be on it. Wembe, despite the games played, he's going to get healthy soon. He's obviously going to be on it and make it. I went Jamal Murray after the 52-point explosion last night. I'm not mad at that. and then I went, I initially had Markinen over Murray, and I flipped it for winning slash

Jamal Murray, just scored 52 points, and I'm dumb, and I have recency bias. And then I went Denny Obdia and Austin Reeves. So I had no Hardin and no Booker, which was a tough one, and we'll see how they play into or out of this conversation. And also no Randall, although if I need to add American players in the end, all of these guys will be candidates. So we're about on the same page. And we will come back to this.

But it was fun. It was actually kind of fun to go through and be like, where do I end up? I was like, I want to count them up. And I got too many world guys and not enough U.S. guys. And by the way, this is going to hurt. My prediction is pain, as they say, for Americans watching this. Because the world team is going to be loaded. And the American teams are going to be split in half the way they're doing this.

So even if we have a good group. of 16 American dudes, they're going to be cut in half. And what are the chances the half is going to work out where, you know, we have our best guys. There's Luca versus Luca SGA. Did I say Luca? I hope I said Luca. Yeah, you did. Luca SGA, Wembe, the list goes on of international players, Shengoon.

I just feel that Americans are going to have a tough time. You'll be in the toilets over there at the end to it, just flushing toilets. but some of us will be watching these international guys just torch the American team. By the way, made my long list. Not going to be a candidate, really, but shout out Dylan Brooks, 22 points a game for the Phoenix Suns, made my long list. Kirk Goldsbury, we'll have to reconvene as we get more data on all starts because this was actually kind of fun. Do you actually know how the game is going to work? No, of course not.

I don't think anybody does. It's three quarters. The first three are some sort of round robin between the two American teams and then, you know, international team. And I guess then there are two teams that are the finals or the fourth quarter. Can we just have a fucking game? Like, why is this so, like, why am I, why do I feel like I need to actually study ahead of time for the All-Star game?

I don't, I just shouldn't need to. Kirk Goldsbury, what do we got coming up from you? Your columns are must read. The graphics on Instagram are, but like, you've had some banger columns lately. I'm doing this trend spotting thing every week where I'm trying to find trends. So if you see any, send them my way. But I want it on behalf of the Zach Lowe show audience, it's great to see you on Prime, Zach.

It's fun to have you in that mix. What a great group of talent they have. And it's cool to see you up there, buddy. I'm back on December 10th, another Cups night. I'm just trying not to mess it up. As always, Kirk Goldsbury, you're the man. Thank you, sir. Thank you.

This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, The all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered image and video generation. Build for today's creative process, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast. Because the asks aren't getting smaller. And the timelines? Ooh, yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place,

Firefly brings your ideas to life. Learn more at adobe.com slash Firefly. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. Look, it can be hard showing how much you love someone. But if you can't say how you feel, just say, let's get some food. Or hey, takeouts on me. And if you really love them, pick Panda Express for delicious, authentically cooked American Chinese cuisine, whether it's game night or date night. Nothing says, I love you like orange chicken, honey walnut trim, Kung Pow chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak.

Have you eaten yet? Order now, or is it a Panda Express near you. This episode is brought to you by Service Now. Look, I have my dream job. I get to watch basketball, think about basketball, talk about basketball. basketball, but even dream jobs have the stuff that nobody dreamed about, the busy work that gets in the way of the actual work. ServiceNow's AI specialists tackle that work, request handled, cases closed, the whole thing done. So you have more time for the work you actually want to do.

For me, that's breaking down SGA film whenever I want, and then talking about it into a microphone. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. Meet the Mets, greet the Mets. Step right up and meet the Mets. Bring your kid. and bring your wife. I'm saying the words wrong. Sean Fantasy, it's time for Metz Corner. Yes, we're back. Can I tell you a story before we start?

Please. I'm at the Knicks game last night. Rumor was Big Daddy Stevie Cohen was at the game, but I did not see him. Okay. And I get the breaking news alert on my phone that Cedric Mullins has signed with the Tampa Bay Reyes. So I text my wife. because my daughter misses me when I go to games.

She misses bedtime. She misses the whole thing. I said, hey, tell Mata, tell her daughter that Cedric Mullins is officially not a met anymore and signed with a new team. And I text her that. I'm on Press Row, and I get back the following message. Hi, it's Mata. And yes, with like 10 E's and 10 S's.

And then I said, I said, I thought you would be happy. replies, he he, he, he, he, he, I miss you so much. And I said, he signed with the Tampa Bay raise. And she says, oh, ha, ha. And then it just goes from there. So this is where I am in my life. You've really conscripted her into your fandom in a very specific way. I really relate to that. I'm trying to do the same with my daughter with the Jets right now, which is actually evil behavior to be incorporating her in that way. But you getting feedback on former members of the team signing with new teams is that's some incredible stuff. Look, it can only go up for the Jets.

I mean, this is the right time to be kind of unaware of the Jets. Yeah. You might get lucky. So I predict in 2027, I may get a call from Zach Lowe that says, hey, Jets Corner, because things are looking up so much. I'm weirdly positive about the Jets right now, but that's not what this conversation is about. So the offseason is underway. We have a lot to talk about.

Should we start with Devin Williams? Yeah, I guess that's the most recent news, right? Signed away from the Yankees, three years, $50 million to fortify our leaky bullpen. I did not know anything about him. I have learned that his nickname is Airbender, which is fantastic, or maybe that's a nickname for his changeup, which is apparently his go-to pitch. I love a go-to change-up. Shout out Trevor Hoffman, the only person who should ever be using Hell's Bells to enter a baseball game.

Get the hell out of town, Ryan Heldsley. Sion are or Ryan. I'll be gassed up. I'll be gassed up the bus on the way to Baltimore. Hope we flew your coach out there. Oh, boy. This is helpful, right? And it doesn't preclude Diaz coming back.

I can't lose Diaz. I want Diaz. I do too. So this is all very conditional. One, Devin Williams, he is a significant participant in recent Mets lore, which is that he is the pitcher who gave up the home run to Pete Alonzo in the NLDS in 2024, which was an incredible moment, sort of like, fortifying moment for Pete's legacy as a Met. and that was shocking because up until that point,

Devin Williams was one of the most unhittable pitchers in baseball for five consecutive years. He was a setup man for years for Josh Hader in Milwaukee. Then he was the closer. He was dealt to the Yankees in the offseason. He had a very down first half of the year by his standards. And then bounce back pretty well and closed the season very strongly. If he's the closer of the Mets in 2025 or excuse me in 2026, I don't that's not ideal we still we still want Dias back exactly we definitely still want

and now Diaz and Devin Williams together that's net with a little Brooks Raley on top that's that's a sexy 7-8-9 to me tell me about Minter this guy that was out for the whole season is I guess going to be back and people are talk very highly of him tell me about him a long time set-up man pitched for the Braves for many years he is 37 years old and that deal that the Stern's sign before last season was very risky because he was coming off a very significant injury the season before. He started last season off very, very well and looked exactly like the guy that we were hoping for. But when he got injured, that dovetailed a little bit with when things started to go sideways because he was such a critical piece of the bullpen. And if he bounces

back and is healthy this year, Minter, Rayleigh, Devin, Edwin Diaz, that's among the best bullpens, certainly in the National League. If Diaz is not back and Minter is not healthy, all of a sudden we're still in a pretty dicey spot. So this, To me, this is, I'm wondering how you're feeling about all this right now, because the, the Devin Williams move is the second consecutive David Stern's move that is entirely conditional. That is like, okay, interesting. I'm not sure if I love this, but I like it if other things happen. And that's a weird way to be going through the next 60 days as a Mets fan.

The first one, of course, is the Brandon Nimmo. What's this guy's last name? Marcus Simeon. Simeon. trade, which didn't surprise me, honestly, like even as someone who was recently sort of re in love with the team, Nimmo felt like it's time to sell high

off the best year of his career kind of guy to me, like just a good outfielder and maybe had the best year of his career. I did not expect a 35-year-old second basement on the downside of his career, but obviously, I mean, like, what was your reaction? There was, I couldn't believe the level of shock in Mets fandom?

I guess Nimmo is a much more popular player than I understood as a Mets lifer. Were you shocked? What was your reaction? I think it's reasonable to say he's the fourth most popular MET behind Lindor, Alonso, and Diaz, and then obviously now Sono is a member of the team. But I think part of it is that he has been,

he was drafted by the Mets in the first round, was developed within the system and has been a member of the team for roughly a decade. So we've got a lot of history with Brandon Nimo, and we've watched him change a lot as a player. So I think a lot of the shock was he felt like furniture in the house. And so we just, we moved a couch out. We brought a new couch in. So that's always unusual. My immediate reaction to the trade was very negative because I've

been watching Semyon, who was once one of the best players in baseball, dramatically declined as a hitter, dramatically declined. He's still a great defender. And that was the thing that we heard Stern say in the offseason, right? We need to improve our run prevention. And in that case, It means defense up the middle. And I love the idea of Simeon and Lindor as a double play combination. We've also heard a lot of information about Jeff McNeil in the last couple of weeks. We're going to get there. Yeah, and I don't think anybody thinks Jeff McNeil is going to be a part of this team long term.

I'll miss Nimmo. Nimmo was a good player and a useful player. And he really loved being a Met. And there's not a lot of guys who played with the Mets for eight, nine, ten years and just say, man, I love being a Met. You know, like, and if you look at the all-time leaderboards for Mets history, he's in the top 10 in a lot of offensive categories just because of the duration that he's been with the team

and the way that he evolved as a player from you know like a high on base top of the order hitter to slowly evolving into a power hitter. I like to rooting for him. That said, he has plantar fisheitis in his foot and he has a terrible throwing arm and he has limited range in left field and he is not a player who signed a David Stern's contract.

He signed a Billy Epler contract. And so a lot of times new GMs do this. You know, the guys who were not there under their watch move on to new and other players. I'm a little dubious about Simeon having a big bounce back year, though. I mean, his bat declined a lot, right? Gold glove. I'm broadly okay with it.

If he has a minor bounce back, I just, but to your point earlier, we don't have a couple of outfield spots that need to be accounted for somehow with Soto slotted into right. And like, we've got all these prospects that are in the outfield and Sterns talked about opening up opportunities for them. That's not, I mean, unless they're awesome prospects, which I guess they are,

that's not something you generally say when you have the highest payroll in baseball and are trying to like make the World Series. So I'm like you, I am interested to see. I've read all the names that are out there. I'm all forgetting anyone and everyone until there's a work stoppage after the season. And then there's a salary cap. Like, let's get everyone in the door now. But we'll see.

Who are the outfielders that I should be enamored with? In the farm system? No, in free agency. I know the guys in the farm system, they're fine, but who can we actually get? I mean, Kyle Tucker is the bell of the ball. But if you sign Kyle Tucker, you probably need to put him into right field, which means you're putting Juan Soto in left field, which is not... We're not preventing runs very well.

That's not really working. I mean, Kyle Tucker is the most elite hitter on the market in that respect. So I don't really see that happening. Cody Bellinger, who was a New York Yankee last season. I like him. I like him. A very versatile player, a player whose numbers are a little distorted by his success at Yankee Stadium, and I don't think he would be as successful with the Mets. But he does allow the team to play him in left, play him in center.

At times he's played center field in his career and also play first base, depending on what happens with Pete Alonzo. And if he resigns and the desire to have him DH more frequently, those are basically your two options as free agents. Let's get Ballinger. I like that idea. I think it gives them the most flexibility. he feels the most sternsy because he's a good defender. He gets on base.

He hits for power. He is, he definitely seems like he's stoned sometimes. I'm not saying he is stoned, but he seems a little bit loopy as a person. I don't know if you've ever seen Cody Bellinger, maybe just like Google what his face looks like. He's got a kind of like ocean waves chill vibe,

which is not. I'm looking at his baseball reference page right now. You know what I'm saying? The Yankees fans in my life really liked him. And every time I turned on the radio, Michael Kay was talking about how great Cody. Bellinger is. He had a great year. To me, if I'm the Yankees, I really don't want to let him go. However, a tricky thing happened to the Yankees, which is that they offered the qualifying

offer to an outfielder, Trent Grisham, which was for roughly $21, $22 million. And they were hoping that he would turn it down so that they would get draft picks if another team signed him, but he took the offer. So now they've committed to Trent Grisham, who had a good season last year, but is not as good as Cody Bellinger. We've heard the Yankees owner, how Steinbrener talking about like the budget and how much money did the team make. And we're in this totally distorted upside down world where the Mets are going to be pushing towards a $400 million payroll and the Yankees are talking about belt tightening. So that in and of itself is something to celebrate. That being said, the Mets have so many holes to fill and I don't know how they're

going to do it. Well, starting pitching, we'll see what happens with Diaz, these outfield spots. What else? Well, you've got four, maybe five second basemen on the 40-man roster. Seems not great. Some of those guys need to get traded. You know, I like the idea of Beatty at third base permanently. I like Beatty. I'm ready for Beatty to be a regular, everyday part of my life.

But we don't have a left fielder or a center fielder. And we don't know if we're going to have our first baseman. And if we don't have our first baseman, apparently the fallback plan is Kyle Schwerber, who's a deachian doesn't play the field, so then who's playing first base. So there's just a, it's very, for a team, as you said, that is going after the World Series.

It's not that this can't be done. It can be done, for sure. Stearns is shrewd, and Cohen has the pocketbook. but they have to do like nine things in the next month. Nine. Okay. That's a lot of moves. By the way, you mentioned Bellinger projecting his numbers from Yankee Stadium to

City Field. And, you know, I was reading about all these things about why Devin Williams' ERA in the mid-fours last year was misleading and because of all these other peripheral numbers and indicators. And I have to give, I don't know how this happened, baseball lingo, as the stats, have gotten more complicated. The words have gotten simpler. So I'm reading these descriptions like his whiff rate on the change up is X-1s.

They're like, we're just calling it WIF rate. And then the Mets bullpen like led the league in meltdowns last year. Like meltdowns is an actual like quantifiable thing. There's such thing. I like how as the stats have gotten so complex, these words are like very user-friendly words. Oh yeah, meltdowns.

I know what that is. It's so true. It was Vorp and Babbip. And now it's WIF and Meltdown. I feel like the NBA could really use swish rate. You know, there's a few. We could improve some of the NBA statistical lingo as well as that. You should be at the forefront of this, honestly.

I really, I'm being serious. Like, this is a very user-friendly, low barrier of entry thing. Okay, we got to talk about the other stuff. Well, if I mentioned first base, Alonzo, it's just like, this is all going to get going soon, right? Winter meetings are coming up. Everyone's interested. Teams are interested.

I will say, it's going to be hard for the, the Lowe family if he goes to Boston. I don't know if Boston's been ruled out or ruled in because A, my dad is a huge Red Sox fan, but also my dad doesn't want Alonzo. My dad is on the, is on the Alonzo's old and not a good defender

and we just don't need to invest a lot of money and players like that. I, of course, want Alonzo to stay because I now love him. And that home run you mentioned against the Brewers is the moment where I was like, I'm just coming back in. I'm back in now. I mean, that was the best moment of the last five years as a fan.

I'm so torn. I love Pete. I want Pete to be a Met forever. I want him to hit 600 home runs as a Met. We've never had a guy like that. We've just never had a guy like that. I do understand why this is the second consecutive offseason where there's going to be a game of chicken with Pete Alonzo

because it doesn't seem like he has a lot of other suitors. The team that needs him the most is the team that can pay him the most, and that's the Mets. And I guess the Red Sox might be interested in him in a three-year deal, but it doesn't seem like anybody wants to go to four, let alone five for Pete Alonzo. And so the problem with that is for us in the next few weeks, winter meetings start this weekend.

Reportedly Kyle Schwaber, the Phillies, DH, wants to be signed, wants to have his contract done before the end of the winter meetings. And if that means if the Mets do not get Kyle Schwerber, then they have to sign Pete Alonzo, which is not a good situation to be in just because they need to have that power in the lineup. So none of this stuff works linearly. Like you can't do things in the order that you would like to do them in.

And so I don't really, is there a world where the Mets don't get Schwerber or Alonso? And then I don't know how you sell that to the fan base. So then is like Mark Vientos the first baseman? Who's playing first base? Probably Mark Vientos. I mean, maybe you move Brett Beatty to first base. I really don't know what the outcome is there. To me, it's hard to fathom.

There is a huge and vibrant trade market in baseball. And one of the things that I would love for David Stern's to do is to continue to explore it. Everybody seems to think that the team needs to trade prospects to get a big-time pitcher. But I think that they should be also in the market for a big-time positional player, especially one that we're not thinking of, right? That's the thing that happens in all team sports is the whoa, I didn't see that coming. And baseball in particular, and the Mets in particular, because they don't usually leak information, should be able to come through with something we didn't see coming.

but I don't I don't if they don't get Schwerber and Alonzo I'm going to be a little panicked on Met's Corner to be honest with you Schwerber you said might have to DH more he's a full-time D-H he's not going to field anymore I mean I know who he is he's the big burly left-handed hitter to the Phillies yeah he's he's one of the best power hitters in baseball he had 50 home runs last year he's older he's 32 I want to say a year or two older than Pete Alonzo and he apparently is a tremendous clubhouse guy and leader and that's one thing that I think a lot of teams are interested in is he's a real like and you know the Mets may or may not be having some clubhouse issues so well why don't we talk about that because the new york posts mike puma i think is his name who is now a daily

part of my life wrote this story about um the prickly relationship between francisco lindore and wan soto also sidebar lindore and jeff mcneal had a semi-heated verbal confrontation over a bad mcneal fielding play that cost them a game i think against the phillies um you know i don't know these guys need to be best friends. It was something you could actually just see on TV that all the fun stuff the Mets do, Soto was just kind of like, I'm too, this is not, I'm too cool for this. This is not interesting to me. I just want to hit. Should we care? I agree with you that they don't need to be best friends. And in fact, like, an internal rivalry actually has value at times, you know, like think of Kobe Shaq. You know, there are times where guys who are like, I'm the number one guy

or I'm the number one guy. I've heard the comparison a couple of times to Reggie Jackson and Thurman Munson on the Yankees in the 70s is a very famous example of two guys, one who is the captain and one who is the clear best player and the friction actually created greatness.

That being said, I would prefer that they like each other. Call me crazy, but happy teams tend to do better. And we saw it in 2024. Or do good teams send to be happy? Well, that's the eternal question, I guess. I don't know.

McNeil is a whole other story. McNeil and Lindor for years have not liked each other. Famously, reportedly, Lindor choked McNeil in the hallway after a game. You got to explain the raccoon thing. Like, I was reading this and I was like, is this a, is this the onion or is this a real thing that happened? Can you please explain to me the raccoon? Uh, I don't know. Reportedly the two players got into an altercation in a tunnel after a game.

And in an effort to explain away what seemed like a real physical altercation between these two guys, who were both very intense players. They claimed that they like saw a raccoon in the tunnel and that that's what they were talking about, but that is obviously not true. And it seemed to be a cover for what actually transpired between them. Those were heady times. Those were, that was the pre-Stearns post-Cohen era

when everything was really, when we went through three GMs in six months and things were really kind of erratic. I just would like to imagine the meeting in which those two players and management are like, all right, we got to come up with something. Like, we got to come up with some explanation for this. Who, like, raccoon?

Who comes up with this? It's not believable at all. It's really, I couldn't tell if it was a riff on McNeil whose nickname is the squirrel. Flying squirrel, right? Yeah. So if it was meant to be some sort of squirrel raccoon situation and they were riffing on that, I don't know.

That was an embarrassing moment. That was years ago now. And there has not been much talk since then of McNeil and Indoor having really any kind of relationship, even though they're double play partners. McNeil is very similar to Nimmo and that he's been on met for a very long time. You know, as a batting champ, a former batting champ,

has been a good met, but I think fans have a more complicated relationship with him because he's braddy and doesn't seem like the most positive spirit in the world. And he's also underperformed two consecutive seasons now. But he's another guy who's a useful player, who's very versatile, who's been, I think it's fair to say, a very good met.

I just think fans are a little bit done with him and I'll be stunned if he's on the team by March. Yeah, as a, as again, a recent reconvert, I was surprised when I learned that McNeil was a batting champion in the past because he's just fine. Like 12 home runs, 50 RBIs,

you know, 300, 330 on base percentage. Like, that doesn't screen batting champ to me. It was during a season where the shift was still active and he had managed to evade the shift very strategically. He's always been a very smart hitter because he has to make up for like a lack of skill with this strategy that he's deployed. And since that the rules have changed, he has been diminished as a hitter. So you're not, you're, you would like them to get along, but you're not too worried. I mean, is Lindor just unassailable met?

Like, is there any world in which any of this is Lindor's fault? Oh, certainly. Of course. I mean, he's a, I think he's a strong personality. and he has a flare in terms of how he goes about the game and lives his life. And reportedly that has rubbed some people the wrong way, the all-business types the wrong way. But I love him.

The one thing I'm wondering deep, deep, deep, deep down is, is there any world in which he's traded? Because he's still an incredibly valuable player. He's very close with Steve Cohen and Alex Cohen. So that makes me think no. But there's a case to be made that he is still the best, all around shortstop in the game. And maybe second or third.

And if they want to shake things up, I mean, again, he was not a Stern's acquisition. It's a very remote possibility in my mind, but I wouldn't rule it out. To me, Soto is the only player and Nolan McLean are the only two players that I could not imagine them moving. You do have to think outside the box in every sport.

There's always someone who becomes available that you don't expect to become available. and that makes another person that you don't expect to become available available. And this has been lurking in the back of my head as my biggest offseason fear because I have a one-year window to cement my daughter as a Mets fan because there's going to, there could be a work stoppage coming up and like, you know, out of sight, out of mind. She's a kid. And I mean, when I say she loves Francisco Lendora, I'm underselling how much Linderer is running in

parallel to the Mets as the reason that she's even into the Mets. And I told her about this story because I want to keep her informed about what's going on. I told her about Lindor and Soto. And her biggest concern is basically like, wait, did Lindor do anything wrong, Daddy? Or is it someone else's fault too? And I'm like, well, I don't really know the dynamics of it so much. A Lindor trade, no matter what, if it's a unbelievable move that helps the Mets is really going to make my life, my personal life complicated.

he's got six years and $200 million left on his contract so I don't think he's going to get dealt that would it would necessitate a mega trade with another major franchise for that to make sense and he also they would be trading for his years 32 33 34 35 35 36 37 seasons it's not likely but it could happen

under the right circumstances it would be the cold-hearted forward-thinking GM thing to do. Yes. Yes. Trading Lindor and resigning Pete, for example, makes no sense. You know what I mean? Like, if you're, if you're, if you're, there is a part of me that believes, that

Stearns believes that a youth movement makes more sense, that part of the reason why they slow play the Pete Alonzo thing, dealing Nimmo, looking at Samien's much shorter contract as something that comes off the books in a couple of years where you can let the infield talent develop over time, especially with a lockout, that all of the, that all of the, you know, that all of those moves are being made to look forward to a future that features Carson Benj, Jet Williams, Nick Moribito, AJ Ewing, Brett Beatty, you know, Nolan McLean, Brandon Sprote, Jonah Tong, all of the Jonathan Santucci, all of these names that we're going to start hearing more and more about over the next 18 months. The Mets have a legitimately

great farm system, and Stearns built those Brewer's teams through the farm with one or two major acquisitions. And deep down, I do think that that's what he wants to do. I do think he wants a team that is built in his image. It's just, there's all of this legacy in his way, all of this fandom in his way, with these relationships that we have to these players. The Lindor thing could have gone sideways. His first year with the Mets was a nightmare.

And all of a sudden, over the course of the last three or four years, he's turned it around and become one of the most lovable players in franchise history. So I'm not saying he's going to get traded. I don't think he's going to get traded. But I do think you're right that that, that outside the box thinking is necessary after the disaster of last year. So anything's on the table. I mean, the youth movement thing has, I get the appeal, not just from a building the team

in his own image thing, but they, by all accounts, have very, very good young players. And sometimes in baseball, it's a weird sport, long season. Like, these teams sort of rise faster than you think and the chemistry hits and all of a sudden, like the Brewers are the best team at baseball. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know enough about it, but it seems like not a crazy thought to think they could go to the youth movement and still be pretty competitive. You've got to start showing your daughter the baseball perspective's top 100,

so she can start getting invested in these prospects. By the way, years is apparently, I guess, reportedly the sticking point with Diaz, too, right? I read something like he wants a five-year deal. They want to only give him a three-year deal. I guess years is, and it was the big selling point with the Nemo Simeon trade. I guess years is their flexibility. All this stuff is really at the forefront top of mind to use one of my least favorite sayings.

Well, I think it's also about flexibility with not knowing the, outcome of the next collective bargaining agreement. You know, if there is, in fact, a lockout, we don't know what the penalties will be against future deals. And so because of that, for example, you know, all of this sort of like the tiers of penalty that currently exist under the system, if those are changed dramatically, that really could punish an owner like Steve Cohen. It could really limit his, you know, he's already limited in terms of draft picks and in terms

of having to pay the luxury tax. if it gets even more onerous on a very wealthy owner with a top of market salary base, then they need to be prepared for that, especially because there's obviously a lot of other things happening in Metsland, like the building of a casino. Yeah, I'm not ready to talk about that whole thing yet. There was a giant New York magazine story that came out this week that's on my reading list because, you know, I don't want to really delve into the ugliness.

But as a responsible fan, I have to delve into the ugliness. Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think, Cohen sees it as a relevant part of being able to be a good owner is to make the businesses around his business coherent and profitable. How he's doing it, we can debate when we know more about it. While I have you on, can I ask you a movie question? Please do. You are the co-hosts of the sensational podcast of Big Picture. You and Amanda Dobbins. And I tell you, when I went to see your live show in New York, the level of fandom shocked my wife. Less so me because I It's a world, the podcast host relationship world I get.

When you and Amanda walked out, it was, I mean, Beatles-esque is probably too strong of a term. There was shrieking. I mean, there was shrieking in the crowd. I have to get your take on this Quinn Tarantino, Paul Dano thing. Did you see this? I did. I did. It's not AI.

It's a real thing. He really was like, Paul Dano sucks basically. And he almost ruined there will be blood for me. Tough one. There Will Be Blood, one of my absolute favorite films of all time. It's a perfect movie. Yes, a perfect movie. No question about it. Quentin, somebody I've gotten a know over the years, so I really, really like a lot. And he, so he shared it on the Brett Easton Ellis podcast, where he shared his favorite movies of the century. That's where this conversation came up.

I like the list. Yeah, really interesting list, classic Tarantino list where he's putting you on to things you've never heard of. He's, you know, identifying movies that maybe you wouldn't think of would be in that spot, but they're very, you know, there's a good case for them. You know, a couple of the movies on the list. We did episodes with him on the rewatchables for, Dunkirk Unstoppable. So it's a really interesting list.

He talked about there will be blood and said that there will be blood would be probably his number one movie of the century, if not for the performance of Paul Dano, which he called weak and called sort of the weakness of the film. Paul Dano, he's one of my favorite actors. I just don't agree with Quentin, you know, who I really love and respect,

but I find that shocking because to me he makes the movie work. And you need someone opposite Daniel Day Lewis, giving the powerhouse performance of the century, who you do hate, who you see is like a fun house mirror image of what's wrong with masculinity and the world. So I didn't agree. I haven't seen a movie in a while.

I've seen it maybe three times because it is such a masterpiece. he's um and diano de louis is so good in it i i found paul danao like perfect as this as this like sniveling weak want to be powerful but actually weak at heart um weakling coward um and and i found their relationship to be fascinating and obviously it ends in a certain way i just never i i don't think i've ever heard anyone criticize the the performance in the movie let alone just come out be like, I hate this guy. So in fairness to Quinn, he has always said this.

Because he talked about There Will Be Blood when it was released and talked about it being a masterpiece. And, you know, he and Paul Thomas Anderson have been friends for years. And they have, I wouldn't say, like a rivalry per se, but they inspire each other and are attempting to one up each other, I would say, in some ways. And, you know, Paul loved once upon a time in Hollywood. And I think Quinn loves one battle after another, although he has not talked about it publicly. but he has always held that Paul Dano is the weakness of the movie

going all the way back to 2007. And in fact, there's a little bit of lore around that, which is that Paul Dano was not supposed to play that part. There was another actor who was cast in that role, and Paul Dano was playing another much smaller role. I think he was playing the other brother, and it wasn't a twin brother role. I can't remember.

There are twins, yeah, yeah. I think he was playing Paul, and another actor was playing Eli. And that other actor, for whatever reason, didn't work out and they moved on and PTA decided to make Dano the whole the whole enchilada.

And it worked out for the best. That movie's fucking amazing. Didn't get it. But, you know, look, everyone has their taste. Sean Fennessee, it's wonderful to reconvene for Metz Corner. I guess I got to buckle up. This could be interesting. It's going to be fascinating in a month what the team looks like. But spring training,

I mean, opening days in March, like late March? I mean, it could the team could look dramatically different in like three days. Zach. Like, anything's on the table right now. All right. It's that time. I guess I'm used to this from the NBA.

I'm just not used to caring about what's going on in another sport. All right, Sean Fennessee, the big picture, et cetera, the best. Thank you, sir. Great to see you, buddy. Thank you so much. All right, that's it. Thank you all for listening. It was a loaded show today.

We'll be back next week with another edition of the Zach Lo Show, unless something crazy happens to the next 48 hours, and you never know. Thanks to Jonathan, Jesse, Mike, and Billy on production. Thanks to all of you. for listening and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you soon. Must be 21 or over in President Select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino

or 18 and over in President D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming, gambling problem. Call 1-800-G-Hall-RG-Help.com. Call 1-88-78-9-7-7-7-7-7. And visit ccpGPGGG dot org in Connecticut or visit MDGamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit Gamblinghelpline, MA.org.

Or call 800-3-2-7-50 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-Hope-N-Y or text Hope N-Y in New York. Own it all. Pay off your home, travel for life, drive a Ferrari. In celebration of the world premiere of the Monopoly, Big Board Buckslot Machine by Aristocrat Gaming, Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is giving one person a $1.6 million dream package. The biggest prize in Yamava's history.

Club Serrano members can earn daily instant prizes and secure a spot in the finale May 29th. Don't pass go and own it all. Only at Yamava, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You win? Details at yamava.com must be 21-20. Please gamble responsibly. Monopoly is a trademark of Hasbro. Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion. Ambition comes in all shapes and sizes. At First Citizens Bank, we roll with your goals because we're built for what you're building. Fit for your ambition for Citizens Bank.