The Zach Lowe Show - Five Big Questions With Richard Jefferson!

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

Five Big Questions With Richard Jefferson! Zach is joined by Richard Jefferson to answer five questions, including best fit for Ja Morant and where LeBron will play next season. Then, Mo Dakhil comes on to discuss Anthony Davis’s latest injury, the Portland Trail Blazers' play-in hopes, and more. Finally, Utah Jazz guard Keyonte George stops by to share what he remembers from draft night, his tough lesson from his coach, and who on the Jazz makes the best burgers. (0:00) Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show! (1:26) Five Big Questions with Richard Jefferson! (5:10) Best fit for Ja Morant (18:04) Who will make the Finals from the eastern conference? (22:34) What team does LeBron play for next season? (27:18) Under-the-radar team that could win the title (39:30) Player that RJ wanted to fight the most (45:39) Zach welcomes in Mo Dakhil! (49:11) Anthony Davis hurt again (53:21) Let’s break down this Portland team (1:01:13) What is Donovan Clingan’s role on offense? (1:07:44) Free throw rate is down league-wide (1:10:56) Lakers check-in (1:17:19) Ayton has not worked for the Lakers (1:20:45) Which 'Rocky' character are the Thunder? (1:25:37) Keyonte George stops by! (1:29:23) What do you remember from draft night? (1:34:30) How has Will Hardy driven you to be better? (1:49:18) Best piece of advice Kevin Love has given you? (1:51:34) What would you like to improve on? Host: Zach Lowe Guests: Richard Jefferson, Mo Dakhil, and Keyonte George Producers: Mike Wargon, Jonathan Frias, and Billy Gil Social: Keith Fujimoto The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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big questions about the NBA season, including the John Morant trade landscape. What teams make sense? Are they really going to get this big package for John Morant? Is it going to be a win now team? Is Memphis going to go totally into the tank and trade Jaron Jackson Jr. too? I wouldn't close the door on it. We go through the whole landscape of teams Richard makes it off the beaten path pick for John Moran. And then we talk about who's going to win the East? What's our deep cut NBA finals contender? where's Braun going to play? And then Richard just has a great NBA fight kind of story. Motequilis here.

We're going to talk about the other end of the playoff race. The play in race in the West is starting to crystallize. And we're going to look at Portland, who's been hot until they lost the Knicks last night and a check-in on the Lakers. And the word blah is used quite often. And then Keante George from the Utah Jazz. We recorded this before they lost by 9,000 points to the Hornets. But we talked about his breakout season and everything in Utah.

He's got some good stories about. Well, Hardy. We hit everything today. The Joss stuff, Anthony Davis's injury, other trade rumors, everything coming up on the Zach Lowe show. Welcome to the Zach Lowe show. Look who it is. My old colleague and friend, Richard Jefferson, how you doing? I'm great. Am I an old friend? Like, we're not still friends? I love you, Zach. You're my guy. We're friends. You've been to my house. You've sat in my Adirondack chair and referred to me as Clark Griswold when people would suburban moms drove by and waved at me and then texted me, who's that guy in your front yard?

It was because I was black. We can edit that out, but still it's because I'm, we're not going to edit that out. Who's that guy in your front lawn? You actually made a joke about that, but I won't repeat the joke. Like me, Richard Jefferson,

you are the, you are one of the participants on road. You're not, Allie is the host, but you are one of the core members. No, no, no, no, no. Host, I think it might say hosted by. She is 100% the host, has been the host. She's actually the C.O.

She runs every single thing. Of road tripping. I show up, like you've seen me on the NBA today. I show up. When the red light comes on at work, when the red light goes off, I leave. That's what I get to do with road tripping because of Ali Clifton. Well, like I was at the Zach Lowe show, you all at road tripping, were snubbed by the Golden Globes last night for Best Podcast.

Amy Polar, congratulations to her. She won. I actually thought, Richard, the Golden Globes were the forum that might reward a deep dive basketball podcast for its acumen. But no, no, they went celebrities. They went with celebrities. But it's the same thing. It's like dramas at the Oscars are always what to get rewarded.

Never comedies, right? Never action movies. It's only, you've got to be a drama. You've got to be a period piece that no one's ever seen from a time period that no one gives a fuck about. Those are the people you will win all the Oscars. right? Now, there's some other good Oscar winners, but great comedies that the whole world laughed about and made $800 million. Now, we don't care about that. Who cares about laughter in this world? Let's sell

misery. So for us, basketball podcasts, we're never going to get the actual love that we deserve, right? Because that's what we are. We're the action movie. We're the fun movie. People get excited. There's an emotional connection for years to the teams and the players that we talk about. And they make it seem like this isn't drama. This is the biggest soap opera. in all of sports. The NBA is the biggest soap opera in all of sports, and it's not even remotely close. I tell people, they're like, well, you know, sports is like,

no, no, no, you don't even have to get involved with the actual play. Just join your favorite team and listen to the drama. It's better than Real Housewives. It's better than Survivor. It's better than Amazing Race because it's all of them combined. How was that for a rant? It was very good. I will say Amy Poller thanked Spotify.

everyone at Spotify and The Ringers. So technically, I think I was thanked at the Golden Globe by Amy Poehler. She said the words, the ringer? Yeah. So I was thanked. I think so. Yeah. Bill,

you know, me and you have a unique, funny, kind of not relevant, but I would say complicated relationship. I am not in a bad way. I'm saying it's like we don't really interact. We see each other. It's like, oh, hey. And then it's just, you know, I wouldn't say we're, we don't know each other, but we don't know each other.

So that's what, you know, I don't know, where are you going with this? I'm going with this to say congratulations to him. It was your face. I was like, yo, that's a big deal. Shout out to Bill Simmons getting the company that got, that he started, got announced at the, are at the Golden Globes. That's careful. Yeah, careful. Yeah, careful.

Whatever. He got mentioned by name. I did. I just got, you know, I didn't. Congratulations, Bill. Like, that's actually really, really awesome, man. That's really awesome. So wait, were you, never mind.

Speaking of soap opera, this is five big questions with Richard Jefferson. And the first one is very soap opery. John Morant is on the market because John Morant doesn't want to play for the Memphis Grizzlies anymore. He doesn't want to play for Tomas Isolo. And the Grizzlies have sent up the flare. John Morant's available. Okay.

Great. Richard Jefferson's best fit for John Morant is. Okay, okay. This is, okay. Best fit. Now, I would say this. Assuming health, we have to assume health, because that's the big thing. I can say it's a situation, and if he's not healthy, if he can give you 65 to 70 gain for the next five years. Okay. So I'm going to say it from assuming help. I think John Morant who is 26.

26. 26. I think I would look at, uh, a place, you know, you look at Brooklyn. I think Brooklyn, from this standpoint, you can do it through the draft, and I believe in what they're doing, 100% were aligned. You can, same with Washington, you can do it through the draft. But if you get yourself a piece that is still 26 and below, and I know John's going to help you win games, I know that, but I do believe that Brooklyn, and it has been proven, now not great,

but multiple times that once you make it an attractive place, you can get free agents or people want to play. That's a point blank. Argue with your mama, right? We saw it, Paul Pierce, K.G., Darren Williams. We've seen great players come in there. We saw it with Kyrie, James Hardin, Kevin Durant. We've seen it.

So you don't have to do a skeleton rebuild. Now, I'm not saying go and give up pieces and a bunch of, like, all your assets to go get John Morant. I'm saying that if you can get John Morant, and keep some of your assets or keep your assets and keep what you're trying to do in tech, you can jumpstart it because you have a guy that you're like, okay, for three to four years, he's either going to be our one or two, but this is how we're going to jumpstart ourselves to relevancy, right? That's what's been proven in Brooklyn. You can do it the old school method.

Like, that's fine. I've supported, but I think that that would be a good location, a good start, a good culture, a good superstar, right? And, you know, he plays with a chip on his shoulder, and Brooklyn's a great place for that. They're on my long list. And by the way, give me your short list. I'm just going to name a bunch of teams. But before I do that,

I will say they allegedly want young players and picks for Jean Moran. I don't think they're getting that kind of package. I actually don't, I don't know who the team is and I don't know how much trade value he has, if any, compared to Trey Young, who just got traded for two expiring contracts, helpful players, but mostly expiring contracts. John Morant is 26.

He's never been a three-point shooter. He's never been a defensive player. And he's not been on the court for much of the last three seasons due to off-court incidents and injuries. The one thing he could always do was get to the rim like all hell and draw on the defense and finish at the rim. He's not doing that this year. He did it in a couple recent games before he went out again.

If he's not doing that at a high level, and he has three years left at 40 million plus on his contract. I'm not sure what his trade value is beyond if it's, if it's equivalent to Tray Young or whatever, but I don't think there's like a good young player in multiple picks kind of package out there. I think they could get that for Jared Jackson Jr. And I'm not going to shut the door on a full Memphis Grizzlies rebuild ahead of the trade deadline. But here are my teams. You ready? I'm going to give you like Brooklyn's on my list, just drafted a lot of point guard types. But you're right. Why not? Right. John Graham.

there were teams that would have been on this list two years ago that it's passed them by. It's past the Grizzes by. Orlando, Utah, passed them by. Atlanta, they just did their thing. New Orleans, Jeremiah Fears is already there. Toronto, I think their rumored interest in Trey Young has been a little exaggerated and is a little bit outdated. They could sniff around this with, you know, can we upgrade from quickly? I just don't see it.

They're playing pretty well. I don't love the fit with Scotty Barnes. And if you're playing pretty well, like, that's kind of a nuclear bomb to drop onto your team in the middle of the season. Can I keep going? Yeah, I'm locked in. I'm pulling up some things so I can have some of the bottles for you. Minnesota needs a guard upgrade. I don't think the money works.

They'd have to trade like a Nazreid plus something plus something and I don't see it. I don't love to fit with Ant either. If I'm Ann, I'm not psyched about that. Portland, their point cards have been hurt all year. They're starting to come back. Drew's back. I think there's hope Scoot comes back this season. Dame is looming.

Again, nuclear bomb to drop into your team. Don't see it. Houston, don't see it. Clippers don't see it. Now we're getting to the good ones. Okay, I was about to say, what kind of list do you got, Zach? Milwaukee, Desperation play. Don't love the fit with Janus.

But they are, they are, I'd be surprised if they don't make a play for one of these like high-salaried Michael Porter Jr., Zach Levine, John Moran, whoever. It's all to keep you honest and it's all, no matter what it's worth it. Miami has been the hot team. What do you think about that? Assuming BAM, obviously Bams not into deal. It's, it's, I saw some fake trade where it was like Wiggins plus Hockes plus two first round picks.

I'm like, what are you smoking? The Miami trade is like hero plus dead money plus not much more than that. Yeah. I like, again, the hardest part about this conversation is we I want to assume help. I want to assume help. So we're just going to talk about basketball ability, basketball skill. Even if we're saying 65 games, which is, I do laugh about that.

And I know Zach knows this. Tell me how many games he's averaged over the course of his career. How many times he's played over 75? I can pull it up faster than you. You can play a game. You can go ahead and do it. It's not many. What team is he on?

the Memphis Grizzlies. I'm pulling it up right now. I had to scroll really far down. He's played 70 games zero times. Now, there's pandemic, shortened seasons in there, right? So it says it's not quite fair. But the last three years,

50 games, nine games, 61. It's not going to happen. Okay. So let's say assuming 65 games. Because if we're not doing that, then that's really where his value drops. Well, and this is like, this is why the team that event, I think some team will trade something real for him eventually. Yes.

And it's the ultimate by-low thing. It's he'll never be this unhealthy. The off-court stuff is hopefully in the rear view. He's totally unmotivated there and we'll get the motivated chip on his shoulder, John Moran, which actually raises the question of like, what exactly does John Moran want? Because he hated the offense last year, which is the offense Miami is running right now. And he, but then they switched the offense. and he was running more pick and rolls than ever before, which is what he wants. But now he decides he doesn't want this coach because the coach dared to hold him accountable

in the locker room and call him out in front of his teammates. Well, that young man, Miami is a great place for you. You want to go to boarding school? What does he want? Look, you want to go to boarding school? This is what will happen. And I don't, and this is not even a John Moran. This is an anybody thing.

And I'll give you one comparison. I'll give you one comparison. If you go to Miami, there is a fit that they do. Like, they help get Shaq in shape. Oh, yeah. Towards that, now they moved on from Shaq when it was, you know, they kind of, it was the time. But Shaq had a great run in Miami.

There's just a way that they do things. There's an energy in which is from top to bottom, from owner to president, general manager to coach. It is straight down that line. And I think that's great. I think John Morant forces you, like, to change your style of play. He's too talented, too good.

You can play this. Everybody touches the ball system. We saw that in San Antonio years ago when they were playing against the old Miami Heat. Everyone touches the ball. But for some reason, Tony Parker ended up with a pick and roll late game, Armandinole ended up late game.

But everybody was touching the ball. And I like that style of play. I would compare the John Moran potential trade as into the Vince Carter trade to the Nets. And the reason why I say that is we, you talk about selling, low. They wanted him out. He had had a string of injuries. He was not motivated. It was just a weird air. And we remember we traded Eric Williams, Aaron Williams, and Alonzo Morning, right? A lot of like

free, like a lot of guys that were future free agents, money, guys that could play, but it was more of like we didn't give up any of the assets. We didn't have to give up too much to get Vince. And then he got there motivated next to Jason Kidd and in our culture. And then he had this resurgence of four to five years of health, playoff performances. You know, really, in my opinion, that's what vaulted him to, like, the Hall of Fame, Vince that he is, because those were, it was like the initial shock of, oh, my God, this is Vince Carter, then that kind of weighed. And then he had a great stretch with the Nets.

And he was a good player as he moved on and obviously all the years, but that stretch with the Nets was like, oh, okay, now we have a big span of him being a dominant player. So you can see that. If you can get into that culture, even a guy that's had some injuries, stuff like that, ultimately kind of found his health, found his motivation, and was in a good space. And we didn't really have to give up a tremendous amount of assets because it was on the buy low. If we had to give up a ton of assets and he comes and if it was me for Vince Carter, trade, people would be like, okay, but then obviously it just, if you're able to keep your main assets

and bring in a guy that you can buy low, that's 26 years old. and is an all-N-B-A talent, you've got to kind of think outside the box and look at other reference points of guys that were able to leave and then have a resurgence and a level of success. And it's been done before. You have to ask yourself,

is he still an all-N-A talent? Because if he can't finish at the rim like he did in his early prime, he's still in his prime, then he's not an all-N-B-A talent. I don't sense, and look, this is bluffing season, but I don't sense a huge amount of interest in Miami.

But I bet they'll look at it. This is just me educated, guess. I bet they look at it because they've lost four out of five. It's clear what they are. They're an average team. Despite the fact that, again, they're running the offense he hated. And by the way, I should have mentioned Toronto. Their coach, Darko Ryakovich was a Taylor Jenkins guy in Memphis.

And that didn't end so well with Jock. I think Miami knows what they are. And they might have like an either. or choice to make with Hero or Powell long term. Like, do we really want to have both of those guys for 70 million a year or whatever? And for as big as Jaws contract is, because he didn't make all NBA, it's, quote, only $40-something million. It's not like a $55, $60 million, just albatross of a contract.

I would still bet no on Miami, but I bet they at least take a look. My favorite team, despite the fact that all the reports are, they're not interested, they're definitely not going to trade picks or young players. young players, they don't even freaking play for whatever reason because they stink. They're 9 and 30. It's still Sacramento. It just seems like the perfect Sacramento, expiring money. It's great for Sacramento.

A couple second round picks. But like I just don't think there's a bit. And by the way, if that's the offer, the grizzlies, the face you're making, the stink face, the grizzlies might just say, we're not doing it because we're having them under contract for three years. If we want to, if we want to take a step back this year and get into the lottery, we can do that by sitting John Morant. And the way he's played, we can do that by playing John Moran. We're not in a rush to trade him for DeMar de Rosen's expiring contract plus whatever.

So my pick would still be Sacramento. Okay, ready for big question number two? I don't like Sacramento for John. I don't like Sacramento for anybody. I didn't want to say that aggressively. I was saying, you know, specific to the person, but I don't like that. I like Sacramento for Vivek's family and friends. It seems like, a great spot for them. They get to run the show, never get fired. It's great. Big question number two for Richard Jefferson. Who the hell is making the finals from the Eastern Conference? We don't know. That's not an acceptable answer.

I'm going to break down my answer. I'm breaking down my answer, right? As we look at it right here in the standings, we're in Memphis, crazily roster. I'll. Detroit, they're one of those teams where I look at them and you can say, okay, see two years ago, two years ago, where they're really good, but they're missing a piece. And it can be a small piece, like, and not small, but adding Hartnstein, what he did for their team, I think they have a much better run if they would have had a quality big that year before where they lost to Dallas, right? I think that's where Detroit is, right? By the way, Bill and I have argued about this a lot. I am big on the Detroit should make a trade this season and really go for it.

He's on the stand pat, let the young guys sort of test themselves, fail in the playoffs, learn what they need. I'm like, I think I know what they need. They need shooting, and the East is there for them.

And that's where I'm saying. It's like, that's what I thought, you looked at the one thing that OKC, and I know we're doing a revisionist history, one thing that OKC, and I was just really bullish on it at the time, OKC, they were in a Dallas,

got a ton of bigs. You looked at Minnesota was so big. You look at Yolkitch. You looked at Anthony Davis. You looked at these monster teams that the West was building and that were around. And the one thing that you're the number one seat and the one thing that you don't have is a big, like, come on. You're setting yourself up for failure.

You're setting yourself up for failure. And they get there. And the last thing I'll say about this before we'll get back on the topic is that Sam Presti came out. He's like, I didn't want to mess with the group and we had a good thing going. But you can still have a basketball mind. and it's like we don't have to do this big impact, but if we can add a tweak, if we can add this little,

we don't need to go get that B plus player and give up assets to try and make a run, but we can get a B minus, a C plus player that at least kind of fills that hole or little patches it for this season. And that's where I think Detroit is in that space. So they're still very vulnerable in areas. The Knicks,

I like the Knicks from the veteran standpoint. Like they've been in big moments. They've been in big places. and it's kind of open the Celtics, you get a matchup. I think this is all matchup based and who plays well. That's why we don't know.

Do you know this, Sack? Whenever a reporter says that they pick a team in seven, what does that mean? They don't know who's winning the series. Exactly. So I picked the Eastern Conference in seven. Good for the East.

I'm sticking with the Knicks by default. I just, I haven't, Boston is an awesome story and they have the Tatum thing coming. I just got to see it a little bit more from them. I still am in shock at how good they've been given their front court situation. And Kada and Garza have been awesome for them. Detroit, Detroit can absolutely make the finals as is because the East is that of much of a mess.

But if they actually want to have a chance in the finals, I think that they need to, if they want to up their odds of making the finals and then have a chance, I think they need a little bit more shooting. Michael Porter Jr. would be great. They'd be great in a lot of places. Orlando just doesn't stay healthy enough. Suggs is out again. Would you give a young player?

Would you give a young player for Michael Porter, Jr. If you're Detroit? My Detroit stance is at this point, I'm drawing my asset line at Ivy. Ivy's the best guy you're getting for me of my young players. You're not touching a Sarr Thompson. That guy has too much potential. You're not touching him. I don't even want to give you Isaiah Stewart because he's really, really good.

Is it integral to your style of play? Your physical, yeah, no. But Ivy, and if you ask. me for Holland and the guy was really good. I think about it, but I want Ivy plus Tobias plus a pick or two, see what I can get. The team that's starting to play better is the Cavs. That's what I was going to say. You get that. Go ahead. Garland looks like Garland and he's played a bunch of games in a row. Jared Allen's had a good run. They're plus 11 with their four quote unquote all stars. People refer to them as four all stars and technically they've all

Ben All-Stars, I guess four All-Stars. Merrill's playing really well with their other two guards. They still need Struis, I think, but they're being slept down a little bit, but I'm still going with the Knicks. Don't feel great about it. Don't feel great about it. Okay. Ready for question number three?

I've been waiting. What team does LeBron play for next season? I would assume either the Lakers. I would assume retirement. It's really, it's for the first time ever since we've been in the same

like friend group and circle, like I truly don't even have an idea of what he's doing. It's kind of like the decision. Like the things that he does, even, you know, when it was going to Cleveland, going to L.A.,

there were very late whispers. Even him going back to Cleveland caught everybody off guard. The Laker thing was kind of like, we can see the writing on the wall, kind of where his career's headed, stuff like that, kind of like when Shack.

made that transition. I don't know where he's going. We don't talk about it. There's not like, oh, what do you know, it's like he might be retiring. He, you know, he's not saying anything. They're doing a year 23 patch on his jersey. I just saw him. That's sick. Awesome. Right. So, and they're doing it for all of his games. Some of these things might lend to retirement. Right. They might make you think, okay, well, if he was going to do a year 24, if he was going to do a year 24, and that was his retirement year, why wouldn't they do the patch that year? Maybe we don't know.

We don't know. So from that space, I would say he's either in L.A. I don't see him, like he's such a big, like, piece. Adding him to any situation just makes it different. So I think he's great in L.A.

I think the biggest thing is you look at where L.A. is right now, right? They're 23 and 13. They've had a tremendous amount of injuries. You know, if guys were healthy, LeBron missed the first. like the opening night for the first time ever. So when I look at this, this team, even though they're missing things,

they have division, this team easily could end up top three in the conference. So like, are you really that unhappy with the dynamic? I wouldn't believe so. They could also end up seventh pretty easily if their record catches up with their point differential because Phoenix doesn't look like they're going anywhere.

And the Rock, the Rockets are in seventh right now. The Rockets have lost four or five and have fallen. Now a lot, Sheng, Goudamiss, a lot of those games came back last night. Someone's getting seventh. if that's good. And it could also be the Lakers. I don't like, I don't, maybe I'm, maybe I'm, maybe I'm a little scarred from the, uh, the rich ball statement that came out over the summer about,

you know, it's a hard balance of strike between winning now and winning later. Cleveland, Cleveland retirement tour? I like that idea. I can see it. I'm going with Cleveland. I'm going with Cleveland. I'm going with Cleveland. Look, if it, if it's, unless they win the title. If we're making stuff up, purely hypothetical, I would say Cleveland or L.A. would be the places that I would see him end his career. Warriors? No. I don't see it either.

He's too competitive. He's too competitive. Now, if some of the warriors wanted to come down to L.A. or meet him in Cleveland, but I just, you know, I wouldn't, I just, I think he is, is locked in. on this year, and that's as far as I know. By the way, can I go back to question two just for a second? It's adjacent to question two. We didn't talk about this team, and it kind of has been one of the bigger stories to some

degree of the season. Do you have any hope of the Bucks putting it together and like actually emerging as a, even if we're in the play in because they're pretty far behind right now? Or they, you know, chasing the 60 to like actually emerging as a team that like, oh, yeah, like maybe they could win a playoff series or two. No, if you, this, we're not going to disrespect Yannis. If you have Yonis on your team, you can win a playoff series. Now, it's all about what's surrounding him.

And I think that's where some of the, um, the curiosity to what's going on there in Milwaukee is kind of really stemmed. Um, but yeah, if you got Yonis, if you got Yonkid, if you got Luke, I'm not counting you out of anything. Steph, there's, there's about seven guys that if you have him, we're talking about the first round or we're talking about the play in, I'm not. counting you out until you are out. Can I count them out of like conference finals and finals?

Yes, you can. Yes, you can. But the trade deadline's not here. So we don't. As things stand now. As things stand now. So we don't know. There are five and three since Janus came back from injury.

Solid. Last night in Denver, was it in, I think it was in Denver, indicative of like they were, they lost by four and they were plus 17 in Yonis's minutes. That's just like, that's just how it is for, for Yonis.

It's numbers. Yeah, it really is Yokic numbers. Question number four, this is my favorite one. Your deepest cut team that you could actually see winning the NBA championship. So like not Oklahoma City, not Denver, not whoever your favorite in the east is, like a team that's sort of in the standings right now. And you could not like, oh, they could go on a run a couple rounds. Like they could actually, you could actually plausibly see this team hoisting. the Larry O'Brien?

I'll give you two teams. I would say the Celtics and I would say the Spurs. I'm going to disqualify the Spurs. So your pick is the SEPERS. The Spurs beat the Thunder three times or second in the West.

I'm disqualified. It just even right, okay, fair, you're in disqualify them. Were those the only people that I would say? We know we, we, we, we know this, Zach, we as media members, we sell 10 teams to have a chance to win a championship. We sell that, you know, eight teams, it would be a bust if they don't make it to their conference finals. This is what we sell.

Now, there's really like three to five teams at this point in time that you would say are in contention, three to five teams. Everybody is on the outside. You can prove it. You can prove it for 40 games. Can you do it for 60? Can you do it for 80? What do you look like in the first, second round of the playoffs? So there's, there's so, there are teams look 40% different in, in April and May than they do right now. So it's, it's hard to say. So if I'm going to literally say the Celtics, Jason Tatum, you look at the way they're playing and you're like, whoa, if they get the Knicks, if there, if there's a, you know,

if there's a sprained ankle by a best player and there's, like there's so many different variables that can come in. And I think the Boston Celtics are well coached. They have the pedigree. They have the chip on their shoulder. They have they have pieces that you're like, wait a second, these guys could actually put themselves. It's like the Detroit Pistons winning the championship in 2004. They weren't probably like top six on people's list. And then we look at them and it kind of built out to something special. So I'm going to say the Celtics would be the team that's kind of like a dark horse. Like, right, if we were to have this conversation, say we were like, yo, how on earth? Like if you would have a thing, if you would have

told me in mid-January that the Celtics or the Spurs were going to win a championship. I was like, I kind of would have been like, okay, I could see it, but I didn't think I would see it. I think that's a great pick. They're third in the east. They have the best point differential in these, but I do think given preseason expectations, the surprise factor of where they are now versus where we thought they would be. I think they're a great pick.

I had an easy pick for this, and I'll get to in a second. the rockets I didn't quite know what to do with for the sake of this question because there was there was like a month where people thought they are the second best team in the West and the biggest threat to Oklahoma City. Now they're in seventh and their offense looks a little bit stuck in mud. I didn't quite know how to qualify them. Did you, did you consider them at all? Are they above this discussion? No, I know. I think they're one of those teams. Like the 22 and 14 guys miss some some time. Kevin Durant is brand new there and they looked amazing. They're their offensive rebounding rate, they're extra, their hustle.

Their offense can look like shit, but you just have to believe over the next 40 games between Shingoon, between Kevin Durand, like they have enough offensive weapons there and they have the ultimate offensive weapon that they'll get it out the mud. It's not like they're trash. They're just not kick-clicking or progressing off of what we saw in the early season. So I put them in that category of five teams. And if you were to tell me at the end of the season right now that that the Knicks won, that OKC one, that Denver won, that Houston won, do you be like, I can see it? Denver is 26 and 13, third in the West.

They are a juggernaut hiding in plain sight. The way they have played without Yokic is, I mean, they're only three and three, but they've not, they've also missed Jamal Murray for a couple of those games. Christian Brown. They won in Boston. if a guy like Watson and Pickett and Noggy, if one and a half of those guys can take what they've done in this stretch, apply it to the healthy nuggets and the nuggets indeed get healthy, including Aaron Gordon staying healthy, this is an Oklahoma city level juggernaut hiding in plain sight right now. So they're out of this conversation. They took OKC to seven and they were banged up. And it was a close game in seven at home for OKC.

Aaron Gordon, like, he pulled a Woolis Reed, went out there, gave Eleanor move. And so when I'm like, if that was the fraction in margins, now, yeah, okay, seeing a 24 and 1 start, all the other stuff. Yes, they look like Golden State during that 73 win coming off the championship. They are still that team. But I think as people have progressed, they've kind of seen, you know, okay, we can beat them here, we can attack him here. There's a little bit of things, but I still believe them. You know this. game 40 to 60 is the hardest in the NBA, period.

It's not even, like, it's not even close. It is like there's nothing in the beginning. At the beginning, you're excited. At the end, you're excited. That 40 to 60, oh, that's when you be, that's the professional part of our lead. And so, like, when you look at Denver, and even if you look at Indiana, Indiana was a fraction away from OKC.

So you look at OKC got better, Mitchell, they felt like they felt like they added a big time free agent. You're just sitting on their bench because of an injury, right? And guys have gotten better. So I believe that OKC is still the favorite. I will never disrespect them. But I do believe that Minnesota was a fraction away. And one of them improved their roster exponentially, in my opinion.

And that's Denver. My pick for this, and you may laugh at it, is ridiculous? or you may think it or you may think it's too obvious. I think the Minnesota Timberwolves could win the championship. They're my deep cut championship contender. 26 and 14, the top seven on both ends of the floor. Ant is unbelievable.

Ant is so so good. Dominant physically and just the ability to score from every part of the floor. He's making the right play. He just lords over these games. He's like a domineering presence in these games. And he likes it. That's the thing I like. He's like, yes.

I like pumpkin you on both ends of the floor, inside, outside, dunking. Nas Reid has found his game. They're a lock to make a trade to upgrade their back court off the bench. An absolute lock. I don't know who it's going to be, but they'll get someone. I like, look, it's a deep cut for a reason. I'm not going to pick them. But if we got to the end of the season and the Timberwolves won the championship,

I would not be like blown away by it. because I think they're that good. They have a proven track record. They have a guy. They have a good supporting cast. They're my pick for this question. What if they want? I'm trying to look.

They've won 10 out of 13. And their losses are always, they, their losses are always horrible and make you doubt everything you think you know about the team. 3.107. That's work. New York won that battle.

And just like Atlanta, they got rolled one game and it's like, do I not know anything about this team? Like, again, they're behind Oklahoma City and Denver for sure to me. But they've always played both of those teams pretty well. They're going to make a trade. And I just respect the infrastructure that they have there and the track record.

But yeah, every, every loss is just like inexplicable. They're putting up monster numbers, 146, 131, 122, 141, 141, 135, 136. Like, they're putting up monster offensive numbers, monster. So to me, that means everyone's eating. Their offense is flowing. They're doing. Like Anthony Edwards is excelling. I think he's added dimensions to his game.

I think last postseason was the biggest indicator for Ant of like, okay, I got to get into the post. I got to be able to work my back to the basket. I got to be able to. Because he saw five people staring at him when they played OKC, boxes and elbows with pressure on the ball. He had nowhere to go. And it was, and it was just like, that's just hard.

for anyone to work. That's why Kobe went to the post. That's why KD went to the post. That's why LeBron. That's why MJ. When you are an elite perimeter score, you have to give that post angle, because now you can see all the defense coming. You go one-on-one, and then your outlets are so easy, but you still get to play one-on-one. One-on-one at the top of the key, that's deadly. Even Alan Iverson would do that AI cut so he could get to that one-on-one empty side of the floor. You go underneath, he could pop back, he had options, but he was getting to a clear. clear side. Anthony Edwards likes to do his work at the top of the key. Dribble, go to work, three or drive against great teams. You can't do that. And I think he's improved on that.

I think he spotted that weakness. It was very glaring. And he doesn't have many. And so I think just to see the added work that he's done on the offensive end helps, like you said, hit guys, make sure everyone's eating, everyone's feeding, and then they still have that motivational defensive edge. So that is a good pick. I think they need one more in George Clooney's You think we need one more. We need one more. The two seed is within striking distance for them, also the seventh seat. I just think Ann has been just making, the post game has emerged as a real thing.

He's making the right play on every, on most pick and rolls, he's finding the right balance. Like you blitz him, he'll trust everybody else on the team, including he's starting to trust Gobert with like pocket passes and Gobert's doing all right making plays out of that. And sometimes like if you drop or you kind of come up to the level of the screen, sometimes he'll just blow by like every layer of the defense and get to the rim. And he's like starting to figure out those aspects of the game in a way it's a little scary. By the way, I'm getting close to declaring it. But I want your, I'm not there yet because there's still moves maybe to be made down the line. We'll see.

Given how DeVincenzo has played for the wolves, did Minnesota win the cat trade or is it too soon? Don't do that. Okay. I'm just, why? Because, because I think that is, is, did everybody? Okay, everybody won, but someone has to win. No, it's not true. Okay, all right.

It doesn't say, it's not a good deal and let both sides feel like they, like, wait, let both sides feel like they won, right? And that's when it's a good deal, right? It's like, who won the Atlanta, Luca, like, Trey Young trade? Right? The Mavericks. Okay, the Mavericks won it because they went to the conference finals, or they went to one NBA finals. Trey Young has a conference finals under his belt. Both players are no longer there with your original franchise.

Yeah, the Mavs, the Mavs won, let's be clear. The Mavs won that trade. The Mavs won the trade. But I'm communicating to it. It's not as glaring as what you wouldn't compare that trade to Anthony Davis's trade. I, no. By the way, I was driving in my car. day I was listening to Sports Talk Radio.

And I just, I literally started the car. And the first line I heard was, I've never seen something so good, ruined so quickly. And I just assumed this guy's talking about the Dallas Mavericks. Like what else could he be talking about in all of sports? Because he was actually talking about college, college football and the transfer portal and whining about that.

But that's how bad the math situation. They got to get rid of that too. They got to figure that out. All right. Last question, because I kept you too long. No, I'm here. In light of the... In light of the hilarious Dennis Schroeder, Luca Donchich incident,

which has caused Dennis Schroeder three games for attempting to strike Luca after the game, after Luca taunted him during the game. Attempting? I don't know. What did the press release say? I wasn't there. I didn't see it. What did Dennis Schroeder say?

What did he say? I don't know. He said, I'm going to beat the shit out of you after the game. And he put underneath the comment, attempting? Oh, I didn't see that. Do we have any physical, like, lacerations or bruising? No, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying all that.

First of all, I'm okay with things being done between the lines, and I'm okay if things are gone too far between the lines, and you want to address them behind the lines. Now, either, both of them have repercussions. Both of them have repercussions. So I'm okay with any sort of conflict. I don't, you know, well, this was my, this was my last question to you. what's your favorite unknown or little known like locker room hallway fight story or what's a player that you can answer either one of these so favorite unknown secret locker room fight

story from your career or be a player that you actually wanted to fight like i actually want to throw down against this guy i'm so mad at him you can pick either one okay so there's an american player that I won't, I won't say. But they were just such, they're just, just a bitch. Just between the lines would be the toughest, like, talk so things that you would never say. And then they would act like off the court, like we're cool or like we could be gorgeous. Like, no, I get what gets your game going. I get what gets your game going. But there's a man-to-man disrespect and I got to choose between punching you in your face and getting suspended for eight games and losing all this money and this. And since they know you don't want to do that,

it allows them to be these fake tough guys. And so I won't do it. So I'm going to go a different route here, but just let you know that there are those players that exist. I like it. I'm going to say one of my favorite villains, and I'm going to go in a deep, deep, deep cut. I love it. My favorite villains of all time, Andres Nocioni. Wow. Argentina. And I hope, Andres, I hope you see this because I respect you and I don't like you. But like you're, you were funny to me because I'm crazy too.

He was just such a little dirtball. He would do all the things, all these crazy things just to try and get under your skin. Very dry. I was very good player. Obviously, he was with Argentina and he was a part of that, that golden era, with them. It's very good NBA player, right? But I played with Mono years later after the Olympics and we're telling stories. And he goes, he goes, yeah, one time, Hondas tells me, he goes, hey, you got to watch the jump ball. You got to watch the jump ball between me and Jefferson.

He's in Chicago and we're all lined up next to each other, right? On the jump ball, he takes his forearm elbow and you know right into my hip because everyone looks up at the jump ball. He just, he doesn't even look at the jump ball. He just, he doesn't even look at it to my body. Boom and hits me right in my side and in my hip.

Like opening tip? Opening tip. I'm talking about like this. This goes up. 10 eyes, 30,000 eyes, including the people at home, all eyes go up. He does, his eyes don't go up. My eyes are up.

He just goes, boom. and hits me right in my, in my, like, midsection. First second of the game, because that's who he was. And, like, he know, like, this was it. I'm also crazy, and you know this. And so I laugh at it. And I'm just like, okay, I'm glad we've set the tone because anything I do to you from here on out.

But it made me laugh so hard that years later, Manu and I were teammates, and we're kind of telling stories about how I, you know, whatever you battle. And he says that Andres called him and said, you got to see what I did to Jefferson on the start of the game. You can find the footage. And I want your sleuths to find the footage. Andres, I love that type of stuff.

I respect them. I'm still mad about our gold medal. Congratulations to your country. But your type of dirty and annoying, I found to be humorous. And so salute to you. He was a very talented player, very good defender. I will give him his flowers. I'll give him his respect because he was going out there, guarding it. Like that was back when you were a three and D guy. That's what he was. But he had the T-Max, the LeBrons, the myself, the Kobe's. I'm not putting myself in their class, but there was a time where I'd scored 20 a game. So I'm saying he was taking all of those best wing players and navigating them. And he was a Draymond S player. But this was before like, it wasn't to that point, but he was a he was a special one. I'll give him. I'll give him. I'll give him. That one, I'm not a dirty player.

I'm a little shit talker, but I was like, I respect that type of dirty, right? Because when I was like, how official, do you see what you did? Like, you can't do. What do you do? Richard Jefferson, you're the best. You're the best. Obviously, everyone knows they can find you on ESPN's and ABC's broadcasts with Breen and legs. Find me on a Richard show.

That's where they need to find me. That's the new thing. That's the new, the Richard Jefferson show. Did you just call it the Richard Show? Just the Richard show. Just the Richard show. That's what we're doing. We're interviewing players.

We're having fun. We're asking stories. We're cracking jokes. There's no controversy involved. Working with the NBA. So we got some access to cool, cool footage and currently looking for a home for a place for it to live. Well, I don't think you'll struggle the fun one. And road tripping, of course, is a mainstay of the podcast space.

RJ, you're the best. Go back to work, buddy. All right. Appreciate you. This episode is brought to you by Service Now. Look, I have my dream. I get to watch basketball, think about basketball, talk about basketball, but even dream jobs have the stuff that nobody dreamed about, the busy work that gets in the way of the actual

work. Service Now's AI specialists tackle that work, requests handled, cases closed, the whole thing done. So you have more time for the work you actually want to do. For me, that's breaking down SGA film whenever I want, and then talking about it, and do a microphone. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. Look, it can be hard showing how much you love someone, but if you can't say how you feel, just say, let's get some food or hey, takeouts on me. And if you really love them, pick Panda Express for delicious, authentically cooked American Chinese cuisine, whether it's game night or date night. Nothing says, I love you like orange chicken, honey walnut trim, Kung Tao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak.

Have you eaten yet? Order now, or is it a Panda Express near you? Sam, bud. All right, let's bring it one of my favorite guests, former coach video coordinator for the Spurs and the Clippers. He's a writer. He's a podcaster. He's everywhere. Moa Tekeel, how are you, sir? I'm doing well, Zach. How are you doing? I'm doing well. I want to deep dive on the play and race a little bit for you, and particularly an under the radar team that probably doesn't get enough love in the mainstream discourse. But here's where we are. We're going to talk about the Blazers, who finally lost last night to the Knicks, but they were set their seven and two in their last nine

games drew holidays back. Donovan Klingan's making a little leap, shaded sharp, just incrementally getting a little better shaded. I still got my soft spot for Shaden. Caleb Lowe real player, some interesting stuff happening in Portland, even without Scoot, poor Scoot, we miss you, Scoot. But here's what's happening. The Blazers are 19 and 21, despite a minus 2.5 point differential. They are ninth in the West. They're a very interesting team because on the one hand, they owe a lottery protected pick to the Chicago Bulls for the next three seasons. It's just an endless lottery protected pick, which would perhaps incentivize them to get into the lottery. On the other hand, I don't think they care about that pick that much. They clearly wanted to chase the

play in last year. They are almost sniffing 500 despite injuries to their entire point guard rotation and some other issues and a whole coaching thing with Chauncey Billups to start the season. And I got news for the Blazers. I think you're making the play in almost whether you like it or not. The Grizzlies, as I talked about with Richard Jefferson, have a John Morant situation on their hands. And it would not surprise me if they, nudged a little bit towards maybe. Do we want to actually, do we want to actually make the playoffs or play-in? Or do we want to help our draft pick and really go full in on a rebuild? Which is great news for the Clippers who are sitting in 11th and the Blazers. Also great news.

The Mavericks. Anthony Davis is out indefinitely with a hand injury. Start the tanks. The Jazz lost to Charlotte by, I think, 247. points over the weekend and have made it clear in back-to-back losses to the Mavericks and the Hornets, two teams in their vicinity in the standings that they are going to sit people and sit veterans and give people rest and have lower back stiffness and everything it takes to keep their top eight protected pick. And so sitting pretty in the ninth and ten spots, potentially if all of this does come to pass, are the Blazers and your hometown L.A. Clippers, Moe. That's where we are. Any thoughts?

on the Anthony Davis injury, which we should really start with because, look, I took the under on the Mavs this year, 41 and a half. And this is why he just doesn't play enough. And now they could be stuck in a situation where, yes, tanking is probably the most beneficial course for them. They own their pick this year. And then they do not control it for the next four straight seasons, I think. So this is like a one and done shot at getting a great complimentary player for Cooper Flagg. On the other hand, he, he, he, now becomes, if he's out for a while and we don't know the full extent of it yet, he's seeing specialists, he might need surgery. But if he's out for months, he kind of becomes very difficult,

if not impossible to trade for anything this season. Then you go into the off season. You have to ask yourself, does he have less value on a one plus one? Like he has one year and a player option left after this year. Does he have more value because his contract is closer to expiration? But if he had been healthy this year, a team could have said, well, we get him for a playoff run this year plus next year. So they could be stuck in a situation where, yes, tanking good can't do the tanking plus asset play for Anthony Davis. I don't know what else to say, man.

This is just, he just doesn't play enough games. I think the Hawks dodged a major bullet. I don't know how real the talk was that they might actually trade for AD after making, after trading Trey Young. But I think my first reaction when I heard that that was something, I was just like, that makes no sense. He's not going to be healthy. You have that problem with Christaps for Zingas,

and now you're just going to trade Chris Staps for Zingis back to Dallas and have the same problem again with AD. I think this was a, I hate to say it this way, but it's like a quiet win for Dallas because then they, like you said, get the kind of tank just by a happenstance with the injuries and everything like that. I feel for AD, man. He had his 13th groin injury. You know, it's like we can't keep having these things and think,

okay, any team that trades for him, even in the offseason, has to bake in the fact that, like, he's missing at least half the games. Like, it's just, you just have to prepare for that possibility. And then you have to work from there with when you're deciding what you're going to give up to get him. I think that's just an unfortunate spot for them. And, you know, for Dallas, it's going to work out, I think, for them this season in terms of, I think they should tank. And I love January, because this is when teams start to kind of decide,

hey, okay. now we might need to start, you know, whether just trading guys or start benching guys and let's start, like you said, start in the tanks. And I think that's what we're going to begin to see a lot, especially towards the end of January. Look, I don't need to pick on Anthony Davis. A lot of these injuries are fluky. This hand injury got like caught trying to get around a screener and got caught in a jersey. Like crap just happens. But I've always been like consistently since Nico got fired.

I went through the entire Anthony Davis trade landscape. I named a bunch of teams and a bunch of teams. and a bunch of teams that, frankly, I didn't think were good fits for him. People brought up Houston. I'm like, really, they need another big guy who is not shooting, not a shooter, Detroit. Same thing. And as the injuries kept happening, I just don't think people understand the enormity of his contract. 54 million this year, 58 million next year.

And then there's this idea that he's an expiring contract, but he's going to want an extension. And how are those extension negotiations are going to go? and I'm sure Rich Paul and Clutch are, you know, talking to potentially interested teams about what that number would look like. I said this already. Like, if I'm trading for Anthony Davis, there is no extension. He turns 33 in March and we're talking about an extension that would kick in

potentially in two or three seasons. Like, no, just no. There's no dollar amount. I'm not doing it. You don't play enough games and you're getting older. Les talked about is the idea that he could just opt in in 27, 28, to a $63 million player option. And so, like, that's a lose, lose situation for a team that trades from either he's

an expiring and he plays well and he can leave or he is on a one plus one. And it's just too much money for a guy who does not play enough games. And I just never understood this idea that someone was going to like dump a load of assets onto the Mavs for Anthony Davis. And now they just may be stuck, which is fine. they can tank, develop Cooper Flag, whatever, get a hopefully high draft pick. I mean, they are right now 14 and 25, they're neck and neck with the jazz. They could easily finish with the fifth worst record in the NBA.

I mean, Sacramento, New Orleans, Indiana, Washington, be prepared for the Trey Young quad contusion to take a long time. By the way, if that does happen, if Trey Young sits all or most of the rest of the season, I don't want to hear another word about how we did this because he's going to make our life easier for our younger players. He's going to get them easier shots. They're overburdened. We want a healthier shot diet. If that's the case, play Tray Young when he's healthy. How about that? Anyway, Mavs, that's it. Any other thoughts on the Mavs? No, I don't want any other thoughts. None. I have done. We're good. Let's talk about Portland who just beat the rockets twice.

The Rockets, by the way. Talk about the playing. The Rockets are now in the playing at seven. Phoenix has jumped to six. I wouldn't count on the count like like, like, like, the Lakers are fifth. They're a game ahead of the Rockets in the loss column. Like there's a bunch of teams that that seven spot is going to be interesting or the race for six. But let's talk about Portland. Seven and two in their last nine games. Offense in that span has been average.

And that's the biggest uptick for them. They've actually started making some shots. They are for the season 19th. I'm sorry, 21st in offense about expected. They cannot shoot from anywhere. they have one of the healthiest shot diets in the entire league. They take a ton of shots at the rim and a ton of threes and almost no mid-range shots. And yet because they can't shoot from anywhere and they turn the ball over at the worst rate in the entire league.

They are 30th in turnover rate, which comes with the territory of not having a point guard for most of this season and playing point Denny, who's been fantastic at Jamaica all-star team. 21st in defense for, I'm sorry, 19th in defense for the season, seems pretty disappointing for a team that was built to be like a ferocious, switchy turnover generating machine. And they do generate a lot of turnovers. I don't know, man, that surprised me because they look better than that on defense to me. Klingin is a monster at the rim. Their defense of rebounding does fall apart when Klingin is on the bench. That's one big issue. I think this is actually a case of the offense hurting the defense.

and making the defense look worse than it actually is. When you're last in turnover rate, and you can't make any shots, teams are running like all hell against you and getting high efficiency starts, like kickstarts to their possessions. Yeah, live ball turnovers are death. Like, that's really what it is for defenses.

And what happens is when they give up a live ball turnover, it's a free run at the rim. It's transition over and over and over again. And I think that's kind of their biggest problem in that sense. I think we would see their defensive rating go up. if they ended up just cut down four turnovers, cut out four turnovers a game, which, you know, for them is a lot. But it, you know, it changes everything. It changes a complete complexion of the game.

And it helps them in that sense defensively. And it makes the other team have to play them more in the half court where I think their defense is going to be more solid. It's it's chasing in transition is the biggest problem for them. And that's something that they just have to find a way to fix. The other side of it, too, Zach, and it goes back to their offense is it's because they're such a hard driving team. And it starts with Denny, right? Like, Denny drives, he drives down the lane. He leads the league and drives per game at around 20, gets to the rim a bunch and that's great.

Helps their offense a massive amount of ton. They don't do a good job necessarily with the floor balance, right? When he drives from the top, somebody's got to start working back to cover in transition. And they tend not to do it. So it's not just turnovers. but if they miss at the rim and the other team gets to rebound, it's another run at transition. And I think that's something they really got to start kind of working on a little bit more and be a little bit more aware of on those drives that maybe you got to start,

somebody has to start working their way back to half court to be ready for transition defense. It should mention Denny Obdia, the engine of their offense and their offense is awesome when he's on the floor and bad when he's on the bench, left the game against the Knicks yesterday with a back issue at the very end of the game. Hopefully that's not serious. If it is, could put a dent into this whole Blazers, guaranteed to make the play-in thing that I started out with. But he doesn't seem too concerned about it in the post-game comments.

He said, I'm not really concerned. I'm a tough guy. I'm going to be all right. We'll see. What other interesting developments have you seen over this nice two-week stretch, two-three-week stretch for the Blazers? What other reasons do they have to be encouraged? I think some of the stuff I like that I'm seeing is just a lot.

more movement in the half court, where it's not necessarily, you know, when somebody drives, there's a slot cut. There's somebody there. I think it might have been Caleb Love yesterday. I forget who was driving along the baseline, but he makes a perfect slot cut, gets the pass, and then gets a foul drawn on Jalen Brunson, you know, in the second half of that game. And I think there's smart stuff there in the way that they're reading the floor and when to cut

and the timing of these cuts are the things that I'm really kind of enjoying in their offense. And it's something we're seeing, again, it's on drives. Like when somebody's driving, somebody else is cutting behind it because that drives opening up a cutting lane for them. And that's some of the stuff that we're seeing within their offense, that their flow is, you know, the process looks good. And this is something we talked at the beginning of the season about offenses, right? And one of the things we talked about the Blazers and one of the things we complained about was it was one note. And it dived right into ISO. I'm not seeing that as much. I'm seeing a little bit more of a fluid offensive flow into what they're doing.

And understanding of like, okay, cool, these are the shots we want. This is how we're going to get them. And this is the, and they're continuing to do. Now, a key thing, make them is the next step. But that's where we're at now, where you're beginning to see it kind of develop. And I think, you know, to what you said also, Zach, no point guard almost all season. And that's a, that's a hard world to live in as a, especially as a young, youngish team.

And I think that's really where it's, their offense is starting to struggle. I'm excited that Drew is coming back now and hopefully can kind of bring a little bit more of that stuff, although he's not like the greatest offensive running point card, but I think it gets them in a little more sets. I think that'll help him out a ton. Well, he was averaging eight assists a game before his injury and was playing like

Peak Drew Holiday and then he got injured. At the very least, looking at the numbers now, there are 117 points per 100 possessions when Denny Obdiah is on the floor. That's like top 10 offense. That's totally fine. 98 with him on the bench. Now, some of that is going to be shooting luck probably when you dive into the numbers. But 98 is like so much worse than the worst offense in the entire league that it's almost

hard to fathom that they've been that bad. If you have Drew, Shaden Sharp, and a couple of other, like Jeremy Grant has been out for a while, it was actually playing well for the Blazers this year and shooting pretty well. Like, there's enough talent there that that number should be at least acceptable when you have a pretty good defensive infrastructure. And to your point, half court defense, Portland ranks about average for the season. So a little bit better than their overall ranking. Who knows how that's being counted? But I also think sharp, I mean, I joke.

I kind of say it tongue in cheek because he's one of my sort of white whales in the league. I do think he's, he'll have games where it's just too many bad shots still. But I think his shot selection is getting better. his three is trending well, we'll see if it keeps up. His decision making, I just think is better. Like there are more blowbys now, more times when he discovers like, I can just go all the way to the rim and just a little bit more calm and better passing. And like last night against the Knicks, he attacked the closeout, drove, got the guy behind him,

hesitated, paused. And he had this moment in the midter range. Like I have my pick between live dribble, floater, or I see Rob, I think it was Rob Williams, cutting for a lob. Perfect lob to Rob Williams. Just the simpler, it's not not a simple play, but just like to keep the machine moving passes are coming more often for him.

And Caleb Love is a guy, man. He's been talking about their point guard issue. Like, I'm not sure exactly positionally what he is or should be, but he has really helped fill that void. He's a real guy. So Soco is pretty solid. Klingin, I still can't figure out what Klingin is,

particularly on offense, other than a halacious offensive rebounder. defensively, I know exactly what he is. He's great. There was a stretch where he was hitting double figures in a bunch of games and making plays out of the short role and showing better chemistry in the pick and roll with Denny. And then there are games where he takes like six shots and four of them are threes.

And I know you've worked on that shot and it's nice for it to be a threat. I don't, some of the misses are like scud missiles at the backboard. And I don't think that any defense is too concerned about it. I'm like, I wish I wish there were just not so many threes. I don't think anybody, any team defensively, they will live with that shot. Right. Like, that's the shot. You can't take away everything defensively.

So when you're going into it, if I'm writing the scouting report, let's see if he makes a couple. You know, even after he makes the first one, I'm not saying let's run out at him. Let's see if he makes a couple in those. Like, I'm not going to stress myself about that stuff. I got to protect the paint against this team in particular with the drive. So I think for me with Klingin, like I want to see a little bit more. want to see more out of the short roll from him because you're right like he's flashed that a bit but but i want to see it more consistently you know and i think that's the thing where that's the

evolution of his game more than developing that three point shot because what you're going to get with denny coming off these screens teams are going to start doubling him that's the past that's the past then he's got to make and then he's got to make the right read out of that and then that opens up things right because then it's shade and sharp cutting a lot off the corner off the week side if that's where he's positioned. That's an easy lob right there for a highlight dunk, maybe an and one, that you have so many different little ways that you can play off of that. And I think it's going to be really important that he focuses more on that than anything

else because that's where he's going to fit offensively for a team. Because then otherwise, Zach, I'm not going to trust his three-point shooting. I don't think it's going to ever really be a thing where defenses are going to, it's going to move the needle defensively. I'm not given up yet on that mode because he's had years where his catch. and shoot numbers are pretty good. Like one year over 40%, I think. The stroke looks good to me,

and the pull-up confidence looks better to me. I'm not giving up on that. I feel you on that, but in terms of like a defense, I'll give that up. Like, that's the shot. I'm not going to run out to open up our team for rotations and things like that.

I'll give a half-hearted close out, maybe a late close or whatnot, but I'm not going to necessarily worry about that. But if he helps me master's that short role, If he can kind of really create that, that opens up the whole offense for everybody. Not just his offense, everybody. So that's going to open up the game for them and add the cutting that they have coming off the way I've been talking about it. It's going to really kind of sort of highlight this team in a different way.

And we'll see their offense begin to rise. And then they'll be up, they'll have cleaner looks. Speaking of closeouts that you just triggered my brain, the cornet closeout has become famous around the league. I'm not even saying this sarcastically. The Celtics video tribute for Luke Cornett when they played the Spurs on Friday or Saturday, a good win for the Spurs, was the longest and most emotional tribute

to a eighth to tenth man. Maybe in the history of the NBA, not only was it the full commercial break, the Celtics broadcast announced before the game, don't flip it. away, we are sticking here for the Luke Cornett video tribute. And it was a hilarious video trip because he's a hilarious guy. He's legit, beloved in Boston in a way that, like, I knew, but it was like Marcus Smart had come back or something. It was unbelievable. I was

in Boston for one, Doc made his return. And like, that was a very emotional, like, I ran out of the video room to watch the, the, the, the, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, the, um, the video board and everything. You were with the Clippers at the time. I was with the Clippers. Yeah, I was with the Clippers. And that was you know, like that was an emotional one. It's

Luke Cornett was just as emotional. It felt like when you watch that game. Like it really like I'll give, I'm not a video tribute guy. I'm a curmudgeon. Oh my God Mo. I didn't know this about you. Yeah, yeah. I'm not, I'm a

curmudgeon. I'm like half to like you got to refer to mean something, it's got to be a rare thing. And it's, you know, now it's, we literally give it to everybody. But, Zach, the fact that it was so emotional for Boston, like, I give the Celtics fans credit, like, they were so attached to this guy. It's, it's, it's kind of fun to watch, because the fans were completely bought into all of that. Okay. So I'm generally, like, when I see video tribute for a guy who was on a team for six months or a year and didn't really do anything,

I'm like, really we're doing, even if you just. flash like welcome back so and so it's like welcome back does he even remember that he played for this team in the luke cornet one he is a unique character and he was on a championship team and he resonated with the fans i'm pro i'm pro rewarding diehard fans who form a connection with a player with a little moment like that all right more on the blazers just wrap it up um they have they have had one of the hardest schedules in the league so far so they have one of the easiest schedules remaining that's a big deal for their play in hopes and i mentioned I mentioned, you know, I get asked by a lot of executives, what does Portland want to do this year?

Like, what's their objective? Are they going to buy? Are they going to sell? I think the answer is almost not quite neither. I think they're just going to make, if they make a trade, it'll be a good value play that's not really aimed at the short term or like it would be aimed, I think, a little bit longer term, but it's not like they're going to do any crazy thing like sell high on any of their best players. I think if there's a good value play to be made in either direction, they'll make it. I don't think they're going to act urgently either way. And so that sort of nets out to like more or less stand pad if you can trade so and so for two seconds or whatever you do it. I think they're more or less going to stand pat unless there's some injury related catastrophe.

The other thing is, I don't know if you've noticed this, Mo. This is a very high free throw team on both ends of the floor. They get to the line a lot and they hack the shit out of everybody. very quietly over the last three weeks, free throw rate has dropped by a lot league-wide. It was very high to start the season, and it's now trending way down. And a couple of coaches have texted me, like,

is this the same thing that happened two seasons ago when despite their pleas that this didn't happen? There was clearly a league office referees meeting where they decided we're just not going to call as many fouls. Have you noticed this? Yeah, I've started to see that. And again, I'm fine with that. Like I think, you know, the free throws, sometimes we award them too easily in the way that it goes.

It hurts certain teams. Like when you talk about it with the Blazers, for example, with how hard they drive, especially Denny, who's averaging almost 10 free throws a game, it's a good thing, right? It's constant driving to the rim, puts pressure on your defense, forces them to actually try to defend you. And it usually leads to foul at the rim somewhere along the ways. but I've noticed that they have started to kind of cut back on the fouls that they're calling, and we're not getting as many, which is fine by me because I find free throws to be the most boring part of the game. Anyways, I think that we need to kind of stop rewarding offensive players a lot of times

get the reward for just, I'm throwing my body into your chest and then going up for the shot, or in some cases, just full on foul baiting of I'm just not even trying to shoot. I'm just trying to draw a foul. And I think that's one of those things where it's frustrating for me. I'm glad it's not being rewarded. I want to see the free throw rates continue to go down. Let's do a check-in on another team that weirdly for a national... I want to go one more thing with Portland.

Sorry, I should have told you from the beginning. I want to credit Tom Haberstroke, because he brought this up on the broadcast, and I went back and looked at it. This was the fastest-paced team to start the year. This was a team that we were talking about with their pressing almost all. defensively on every possession, all that stuff. That, if you go month by month, is dropping quite a bit. And I'll be interested to see how that continues for them because I thought pace was something for them that was a good thing.

I thought the pressing full court more often and more regular was a good thing for them, forcing other teams into turnovers and things like that. Hard to do through the course of an 82 game season, but I am noticing the slippage of it. I'm actually saying I noticed. Tom alerted us. of the slippage of that. And it's something to pay attention to as they get going. Because this team is a team that has to play fast.

They need to keep that up-tempo. Interesting. One other note, you mentioned free throws are the most boring part of the game. You know what else is boring, Mo? I've said this once. I said it a month ago, and it's only gotten worse since then. This is an epidemic of clock malfunctions in the NBA this season. The NBA switched over their clock equipment and stuff in the offseason

into like this brand new system. Maybe this is just the growing pains. But this sucks, man. Every game, it's like, oh, the shot clock didn't start again. The shock like, am I watching my daughter's 10 and under basketball game at this point? Like, what's happening here? We got to clean this up. It's unwatchable.

Okay, quick check in on the Lakers. I mentioned the play and race. The Lakers fans probably think, well, we're above that. We're fifth. We're 23 and 13. Well, you have a negative point differential. You're 13 and 1 in clutch games. It's propping your team up.

You finally lost a clutch game to the buck. thanks in part to a weird LeBron brain fart late in the game that you don't see a bad three and then a frustration foul. Look, like, they're a game ahead of the Rockets who are seventh. They are half a game ahead of the Sons who are sixth and not going away. Their schedule is toughened up and they have been absolutely up to it. Someone's got to finish seventh. I haven't talked about the Lakers much because we just haven't seen their team.

Like, LeBron was hurt. Now Reeves is hurt. And I just want to see their team. a little bit more. But it's time to, and Rui's been hurt. But it's time to talk about them a little bit because I don't know, man, something is leaving me even colder than the point differential and the slow feet on defense that we've all talked about in the injury absences.

Like, I don't like the way this team looks. And I don't know if it's just age plus lack of foot speed. They're obviously in a desperate search for some sort of rangy, three and D wing. I don't know if they'll find one. even Luca is putting up huge numbers. I don't, I just don't like something is not sitting well with me beyond the obvious like their defense isn't very good and they're playing above their head point differential wise.

What, what, can you verbalize this for me? Yeah, they're just an average team. That's it. It's at the end of the day. They're just average. And that sucks when we're not used to seeing average associated with LeBron James. Actually, we're not used to seeing average. really associated with Luca all that much.

You know, it's a frustrating run when you're watching this team. But it's also the center position. Look, the big move they made was getting D'Andre A. and off the buyout market when he got bought out in Portland. And he's not even closing games. He didn't close that game against Milwaukee. Right? It was Jackson Hayes.

Like, that was their big move with, you know, and that's a nothing burger, right? Like with what we're seeing, it's, they're treating it almost like a gapier. And that's how I'm kind of treating it when I'm watching them this year. And their offense is when they're fully healthy and then they have Reeves out there. Great. Their defense is God awful, right? Like when you go watch, you know, you watch the end of that game against Milwaukee a few nights ago, right? They take a lead and then they blow it.

And what happens is, you know, the defense targets Luca. He gets blown by. The defense started. And I don't think he'll be playing crunch time a lot, but Jake LaRavie is in and a possession. and they get a switch on him and then they attack and that leads to kick out three. Like there's all these things, these possessions where you just look at them going, like there are too many targets for teams to attack when they're on offense. And then on the other end of the floor, it's how many threats are you?

Like how worried are you? You're worried about Luca. You're worried about LeBron and those three. Then everybody, it's three on five. You're not going to be that worried about the other guys. You'll let Marcus Smart bomb away, who he'll have one game where. he makes seven threes. You know, like, that's just going to happen.

Pencil it in. It might have happened already and I might have missed it. But just pencil it in. But okay, that's all. You'll live with that. That's just where it's at. You're not going to worry about the Vanderbilt. You're not going to worry about the other guys.

Ruri Hachamora, when he comes back, who started out well, but since LeBron got back, really struggled and never really kind of found his place in the offense. Like, there's just, they're just average to me. It's just blah when I watch them. And they are running a, yeah, that's it. It's blah. And when you watch their offense, you know, I came on here January 1st, and I was saying they have to find more often.

The defense sucks. It's not going to get better. And I still believe that. Their offense has to have more movement and stuff and get away from the ISO. They won three straight games after that, getting the more of that stuff. And even the game against Milwaukee, they lost, but they were running more stuff. But at the end of the day, it's just blah. Like, there's just nothing there that really makes me go, okay, this is how they get to the Western

Conference finals. This is what they have to do. It's funny. Luca's putting up monster numbers and belongs in the MVP conversation and is the offensive genius that he's always been. It doesn't feel as dangerous right now when he has a live dribble on the pick and roll. And I wonder if that's, and there are too many zero past Luca possessions. And one, the pass out is just not as dangerous as it was. And I think it's because he hasn't developed the same kind of rhythm with his

rim-rolling centers as he did in Dallas. And the shooting just isn't the same. And it just feels like they're trying to find the rhythm on that play to make it truly, truly dangerous. Their offensive rating with Luca and LeBron is bad. Their defense rating is bad, period. Their offense rating with those two is bad. It may just be that they really need all three of their guys to play the mismatch game

the way they want to play it and the split cut game and all that stuff. A couple other blah, you said blah, they put no pressure on the rim. They become a slow-paced team. They don't get to the rim. They don't get offensive rebounds. The one thing that's really propping them up is for the 19th,000th year in a row, their first at free throw rate because they just get to the line all the time. Defensively, they might be getting a little unlucky with opponent jump shooting,

but not much. I mean, they're just not something is just, they feel like a team that really needs the All-Star break to come soon. They look very slow. and we'll see what they do. But you said the phrase gap year, I've said this before. Like this was never intended.

Luca Donchich fell into their laps. No matter how they want to spin the genius of acquiring him, this thing fell into their laps. And they had one kind of team that was designed one way. And then they lucked into a player who didn't have a team designed optimally around him. and eventually they'll have to retool and retool and retool, but it was always going to take more than a calendar year to do that, particularly when your other top three player,

second best player, whatever, is 41 years old, and has sciatica and arthritis or something, when you missed a game with an arthritic, something or other. I want to say something about Aiton. Because I told you before the season, this would work. And I said, it's going to work. And I said, I don't mean dominating. I don't mean an all-star game.

I mean 16 and 8, solid defense, finish at the rim. He's averaging 14 and 8 and shooting 68%. And I'm here to tell you that despite the fact that it sounds like he's hitting the benchmarks that I assigned to, It Works status, it ain't working. Defensively, he hasn't been good enough. Offensively, there are too many nights where he's at 8.5 rebound afterthought. And I just like, how is it possible that in the eighth year since he was picked by the Phoenix Suns over Luca Donchich, that a guy who came into the league as a jack-of-all-trades master of none on offense, a guy who like, well, he's got a little bit of a jumper, some elbow passing game,

he's a rim-roller, maybe he can stretch a three, maybe he can come a dive man, maybe he can come a faciliter, how is it possible that a 19-year-old jack-of-all-trades, master of none is now a 27-year-old jack-of-all-trades, master of none. hasn't gotten better at a single part of his offensive game. He's not a better rim runner than he was five years ago. He's not a better shooter than he was five years ago. He's not a better passer than he was five years ago. He's not a better poster than he was five years ago.

He's not a better post player than he was five years ago. It's so disappointing that this guy who looked like this lump of clay that a team could mold any way they wanted to is just a lump of clay at the end offensively. And he's been fine for them. Like for the money, for the contract, it's fine. He's, yeah, he'll have games. He'll go for 20 and 11. and finish a bunch of lob dunks and all that.

It's just not enough, despite the numbers are great. The numbers are over-inflating what he's doing for their team. Yeah, I've not a very big Aiton fan. I think, you know, this is one of those guys. It's, it's funny. When the Lakers signed him, I just threw my hands up in the air of like, now I got to watch this guy. It's, it's, I'm not because of those things, Zach, because he has all of that potential. I saw it in Phoenix.

He had a ton of potential. Never plays with force. loves to be able to get it and then kind of be near the rim and then go towards a jump hook instead of like trying to go dunk the ball. And he might not dunk it every time, but you might get fouled. You might put yourself in your team in a different position, but it's the lack of force. It's a lack of drive sometimes with him. I don't understand that how you just lined out over the past five years.

He's not improved at all. And it's frustrating in that sense. You got all the way to the finals and that didn't ignite a switch. in him. He's still, despite the fact that he's getting spoon fed by two of the greatest pick and roll distributors of all time, he's still averaging 1.5 free throws per game and shooting a career worst 59% on free throws by the way. So that's gotten worse somehow.

And you mentioned Vanderbilt. You know, they're now to try to repair their defense. They're playing Vanderbilt more. And we're like years into this where in the regular season, it'll have moments. But Vanderbilt plus a true center, it's just not going to work offensively well enough. and you're going to end up yanking him off the floor. Anyway, look, I'm just saying right now, buckle up Lakers fans because they were up to second,

and they're still only a game out of second in the loss column, but they're also a game ahead of seventh in the loss column. This is going to be a fight for your life to stay out of the play in tournament yet again. Montequil, where can we find you? promote your stuff, but I have one thing I wanted to bring up to you, and it's a little bit not in the playing tournament. I've been thinking a lot about the Oklahoma City Thunder,

and I want to run this by you real. quickly. Okay. In terms of movies, I've been thinking about them, and I wonder if, are they Drago from Rocky 4 when Rocky finally cuts them and the announcers are apollectic going, the Russians cut and it's a bad cut, all that, is that what was the Spurs finally kind of opened it up and everybody has now seen, okay, the thunder aren't as invincible as they seem? Or are they actually Rocky from Rocky 3 and the spurs are Clubber laying? And they've gone so you know, that's kind of their white whale. They've, they're now at that point after Rocky loses you know, to Clubber Lang feeling completely lost the confidence. I don't think they've

lost confidence, but they've lost themselves a little bit. I listen to the Jalen Williams post game a few days a few games ago where he was kind of talking about like, yeah, we've lost some games. and trying to figure this stuff out. Like, I know he's dealing with the wrist thing. But, like, are they Rocky from Rocky 3 and the Spurs are Club or laying? Or are they Drago? And now the league kind of sees it going like, maybe this team isn't as invincible as we thought they were when they went 24 and 1.

I know all the shooting and all that stuff. And the numbers and everything has changed for them. I just, when I think about it in movies, I waffle back and forth with them of like, I don't know which one they are. I think they're closer to Drago, but if Drago could still beat Rocky by split decision at the end instead of getting knocked out and losing. I do think the offensive vulnerability in the half court has always been there. And it took a three point collapse for it to really show itself.

And that will write itself. Hartenstein, I've said over and over again, is more important to their offense than their defense. The offensive rebounding to second chance points, the free throws he draws, his passing, I think they miss him a lot on offense. But look, there were always stretches with this team where like the Wallace, Caruso, Dort, whoever winged, Aaron Wiggins, Isaiah Joe was ice cold until last night against the heat when they just don't make enough shots. And the offense kind of bogs down a little bit.

And it's been a little boggy in the past couple of weeks. We'll see when they get healthy. Like Hardinstein comes back and Caruso's been in out of the lineup as always. Jalen Williams, big Jailen Williams. just came back. Wing Jalen Williams is sort of finding himself still after dealing with the wrist stuff. They'll hit a stretch again where they look like the capital T Thunder, but I never thought they were invincible invincible. I've always said I think Denver could absolutely beat them in a playoff series, even though Thunder versus the field, I think became a legit discussion,

particularly when Aaron Gordon's injuries just kept popping up. They're still the favorites, but I think I'm going closer to Drago, but Drago wins by survives and wins by sports. decision at the end of Rocky 4. And I don't know if the Cold War continues in that scenario or if we still all Rocky doesn't get to and I can change. Yeah. He doesn't get to give the speech at the end of that

stuff. Let me ask. Last question. I know we, would you say now after watching this the thunder, do you feel more that like another team besides Denver can beat them? Can Houston, can San Antonio after seeing what's done and we know what San Antonio

is done to them? That's regular season by way it changes come playoff time, how that, you know, when game plans kind of become more materialized and more in depth, but do you feel like it's, or is it still just, you really feel confident it's just either Denver can beat them or can you add other teams to that field? I mean, I think clearly San Antonio, although they haven't lit the world on fire five and five in their last 10 games since the Thunder sweep, Wembe obviously injured in and out of the lineup coming off the bench for a bit. Vassell's injured. clearly they have something with all the guards and all the ball handling and the giant

in the middle that troubles them. I don't think just as a matchup, I don't think you can sleep on that. And I think Minnesota is really good and that they're going to make a trade. So I think it goes a little bit beyond Denver. Houston's in a little bit of a rut. And right now they've got to find themselves. Motta keel, offside, NBA TV. What else?

Double dribble. Double dribble podcast with Jared Dubin. That's where you can find all my stuff. If you follow me on socials, all of them, I'm ridiculously online too much. If you follow me on all that stuff, you'll see my work when I put stuff out. Multi-kill, thank you, sir. Thank you for having me. This episode is brought to you by Adobe Firefly, the all-in-one creative studio with AI-powered

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Get whatever you need. Deliver to you fast so you can say yes to the moment. same-day delivery. It's on Prime. Visit Amazon.com slash Prime to find millions of items delivered fast. Available in select areas, terms apply. All right, I'm super excited to be joined by one of the breakout players of the NBA season. One half of what is becoming one of the deadliest pick-and-roll accommodations in the league.

Way out in Utah, Kiate, George. How are you, sir? Where are you doing? I'm hanging in. Congratulations on a great start to your season, man. You are rolling. No, I appreciate it. Appreciate you having me.

man. I want to talk about your journey a little bit. And I want to start at pre-draft. You worked out for the jazz, and I heard some details from that workout, some funny, some serious. First, I heard Danny Aange was really heavily involved, and, like, you guys sort of bonded right off the bat. What was that like? What was your first impression of Danny? Danny, my first impression, I mean, he was cool, like, he regular.

I mean, obviously I knew of him just because of the basketball world and what he's done. But, you know, they took me to a little nice restaurant when I got here. And he told me that he wasn't going to eat because he was going to eat Chipotle. So I'm like, all right. That's Danny. From then on, I kind of knew he was like, ah, you regular. You're one of us. And he told you right off the bat, we think you are a point guard.

We want to put the ball in your hands if we draft you. Is that correct? Yeah, for sure. He said that right away as soon as I got here. He said he seen me as a point guard, but he also said that he sees me as a versatile guard, being able to play off the ball too. But, you know, obviously when I got here, I was grateful for the opportunity that they put the ball in my hands and let me go to some mistakes.

But he never, ever told me once that he was going to take the ball out. And what was your reaction to that? Because, you know, I talked to your guy foray for a little while to learn a little bit more about you. And he said, you know, you did your senior year of high school at IMG, obviously one year at Baylor, that there had been times in both those places where the idea of you playing point guard or having the ball in your hands more as a distributor was brought up. And you didn't love the idea. Is that, is that right? I mean, yeah, I played off the ball.

Basically, my whole entire life. I've always played with another person that could handle the ball as well. But, I mean, yeah, once our senior year, our point guard went down. and Bradley. And I kind of had to figure it out, figure out how to make the threes, figure out how to, you know, get the guys in rhythm while I'm still trying to get myself in rhythm.

But yeah, ever since, like I said, I've been playing a position. Every year it's just gotten better for me. Did Will Hardy get on the floor with you during that pre-jury that workout? Because he's one of the young coaches. Like, you can get out there and play with you guys. No, he didn't get out there, but he was there.

He was there, though. They had the video guys with the arms and all that. Oh, with the stick arms? What arms? Yeah, with the stick arms, yeah, with the two arms, yeah. One thing Will did tell me from the workout is you got to the end of it, and they wanted you to do a conditioning drill, a three-minute run, where you go baseline to baseline, touch it as many times as you can.

And they said, you know what, Kianti is so hard drill, man. Whatever music you want, you picked the music. Do you remember what you said? Yeah, it says it needs some gossip music. I need a band above for this one. Will told me, he said, I need some God, put on some gospel music, I need Jesus. And Will thought that, for some reason, Will, like, that really stuck with him. He's like, this is kind of a funny, down-to-earth guy.

I like this guy. It's going to be my kind of guy. That meant something to him. Oh, yeah, that moment, especially with the altitude, but it was like, Mom, I don't even know. I really worked out that much. Out-to-crazy-crazy up here, especially I've never played out of altitude, ever. So you get to the draft and you've identified you and your team have identified Utah as the place you want to go. They have the ninth pick that they end up using on Taylor Hendricks, your current teammate.

And then they have the 16th pick, which is you. And right above you are three consecutive shooting guards. Toronto takes Grady Dick, New Orleans takes Jordan Hawkins, and Atlanta takes Kobe Buffkin. And I know you wanted to go to Utah. everyone kind of knew those three teams were picking guards. Utah doesn't take you ninth. Are you sweating through the rest of the lottery? And when do you find out like, all right,

when Buffkin is announced, do you breathe a sigh of relief? So the morning of, obviously me and my team, we talked. Obviously, you know, my agent told me that his phone was going to ring at 9, just coming from Utah and kind of see. see what happened from there.

But it's actually crazy, man. We went through the whole draft, and he kind of named everybody from top to bottom. Obviously, maybe, you know, Toronto, maybe I felt like I worked out good there. Same thing with New Orleans, but obviously, I think if I can remember correctly, I think the phone rang at 15 for Atlanta. I don't know what my agent said, but obviously me and Bufkin did pre-draft together a little bit. He ended up going 15. and once Utah had a 16 pill, I kind of knew that I was going to Utah,

but obviously from the morning, us talking about what team I wanted to get to, and I knew I wanted to get to Utah right away. I felt like I got fit, I felt like they developed, you know, multiple guards, even talking to my hometown trainer, he told me, but even before I started pre-draft, he was like, man, you might need to go to Utah. I thought he was crazy, but going through the process and, you know, talking to my team and figuring out, you know, what would be the best, situation for me, for me to grow. It's crazy that he was actually right. So, you know,

I'm grateful that they believed in me. And I'm glad that I failed to 16. And, you know, I couldn't ask for anything more. You have a good, you have a very good rookie year. And then your second year goes sideways a little bit. Midway through the year, Will Hardy decides, you know what, Kianti, we're bringing you off the bench. It's not permanent. It's not long term. It's not even, like, maybe not even a demotion. Like you'll play just as many minutes. You'll play crunch time, but we think it's best for the team.

We're going to start Isaiah Collier. And nobody, no matter if you play more minutes or play crunch time, like nobody really wants that to happen to them. And I heard from your team, like there were a lot of conversations, like pretty raw conversations. Like,

does this mean they're giving up on me? You know, how do I react to this? So how hard, how hard was it for you? And how long did it take you to just sort of be like, you know what? This is just going to be what it is.

And I'm going to make the best, of that. I mean, yeah, obviously the human nature of it. Obviously, you don't know what's going on. But like you said, I'm grateful for the team that I have around me. They was honest. I mean, after every game, I mean, completely honest. I'm just calling, just trying to figure out how I need to play

or what I need to do on the court, off the court, like, just anything. But then, you know, obviously sitting back at home and starting to realize and having conversations, like, it's just about being a professional. be professional at the end of the day. Like you said, you might play the same amount of minutes. You still might play at the end of the game. But like you said, it's just about being professional, trying to be the same guy every single day

when I'm coming into the facility. Obviously, that was hard to navigate as a young guy. But when you go through things like that, it kind of helps you gain some more appreciation for the game, appreciation for being in the NBA. It's not that many of us. Not a lot of people get an opportunity to play. So for me, it was just about,

understanding like, you know, obviously I'm coming off the bench, but like there's just worse things in life that's going on for a lot of people. So I just had to make most of it. And, you know, it gave me an opportunity to show like, okay, can play good when I start. I come off the bench, I can still be productive. So like I said, that comes with the professionalism piece. One thing everyone agreed on was he was supportive of Isaiah Collier and very loudly the entire time, that there was no like, well, this guy took my spot. Do you want to lift him up, which is A, which is what you want to see from any teammate. But if A, did tell me, there was one game I was watching, and he, Will called him up to

check in the game. And he kind of like loped to the scores table, a little sulky, a little pouty. And I had to call him after the game, be like, come on, man, like, get your posture right, get your spirit right. Do you remember that call? Yeah, yeah. He told me, like, when you get called into the game, like, maybe run to the scores table or something, like, just do something to get you rid of.

to go into the game. So when he called me out something small like that, I kind of knew like, all right, it's kind of time to fix it. And like I said, be professional.

So I'm grateful for, you know, for Ray. And so as you come out of the gates this season, making a huge leap on fire, 24 points a game, everyone starts to write the story of like, Keante, George,

is making a big leap. What were the turning points? What happened? And a common ingredient in all these stories is the end of season meetings last season, particularly with Will Hardy, who you are super close with now from what I've been told, and how sort of like raw and unfiltered those meetings were. And I asked somebody, I was like, well, what does that mean? Like, what is the coach actually saying to Kianti? And what

is Kianti saying to the coach? Like, what's raw? It's just like, you got to get better. You got to work harder. And somebody told me, raw in this case was Will Hardy saying to Kianti, I got to be honest with you, man, if the front office came to me right now and said, should we bet the farm on this guy with a big long-term extension, I would probably say no. And he said that to your face. Do you remember that? Is that right?

Yeah, man, Will, he said a lot more than just that. You know, man, he, everybody, obviously everybody talks and Will got to talk. You know, he didn't take his eyes off of me. Like, he was, I could see him turn a little red. Like, he was basically telling me, like, his time, man. like, you know, it was my second year in the league. Like, I'm not a rookie no more. Like, he couldn't stress that enough.

Like, you're not a rookie anymore. Like, you know how the season goes. Like, he knows what you need to do on a day-to-day basis. Like, it's time, man. Like, it was almost like a big brother conversation. Like, you know, I got no time to deal whatever you got going. Like, you know, it's time for you to, it was time for him to, like, really be able to trust me. I think that's what I got out of it for him to see my date.

they work, see how I work in the summer, see how I approach games. Right now we got this thing going where he just talks about presence. Being president in a moment, being present, like just not driving your head,

stuff like that, just simple stuff. But yeah, he was, he was real blind. I mean, he's one of the first people, you know,

to really coach me and to not be, not be scared to, you know, say to real. Obviously, you got guys that can tell you the best in the world.

You're in the NBA. But, you know, he kind of helped me understand, like, what type of player do you want to be? What do you want to get out of the game? So he really helped me kind of sit back, look in the mirror and really understand what type of player I wanted to be.

What did I want to, what did I want not only for myself, but, you know, for the organization for the jazz as well. When he says something like that about the extension, do you say anything bad? Are you just listening? Like, did you respond at all?

Like, no, I'm going to, I'm going to prove you wrong. or I'm going to live up to, I'm going to, I'm going to meet these expectations, or did you just take it in? And, like, I, then you spent the whole summer and saw, like, working on all the key parts here, game. But in that moment, is it, like, a shock to hear that? Do you say anything back?

I mean, I, I think I knew Will good enough where it wasn't time for me to say nothing back. I walked out the interview. Yeah, I walked straight to my car. I ain't talked to nobody. Like, I just had to kind of, that was a real, that was one of my, real, honestly, first, you know, real blunt moments of dealing with confrontation and all those things. So, um, but like I said, it saved me for sure and to the player that, that I want to become. But it was just one of those things where, you know, obviously I didn't think that I needed

that, but, you know, for the greater good for my game and all aspects of life, like, we don't understood that that was something that I needed. And he knew that I were receiving it in the right way and not take it the wrong way. And, um, and now, is done wonder for my game. It's funny, you know, the stuff about point guard kind of being thrust on you late in your, not late, but like in the NBA, basically, I don't watch much college ball, so I get my first real deep dives on players when they get to the NBA. You're passing jumped off the screen like right away.

You're throwing these like lefty, one-handed cross-court or pocket passes, laser beams to the guys roll into the rim. Did you find that the pick and roll reads, I don't want to say came easily, but you had it, more of a natural feel for, like, being a lead guard and a distributor than you maybe thought you would have? Yeah, at Baylor, they did a good job, teaching us, you know, some of the pick and roll reads. We worked on the reads every single day. You know, my trainer back home, we worked on, I mean, bouncing, bounce passes through the cones, left hand, right hand. So I think just those things I worked on so much early on.

that it kind of came national when it came to making the pass. I think through film now and watching, you know, all these different, you know, guards play. It helps me now when I get into the game. And I feel like now the reads are all the same, you know, whether it's pick and roll, or low, you read the low man. If X-Men doesn't drop, then you hit the corner and you may play through the field behind. But, you know, just keeping it simple. It's really helped me expand into, you know, not turn the ball over as much.

and being able to make the simple play, not trying to make the home run. To me, almost as big a leap, if not bigger, has been on defense. Tell me about that, because you are, like, really competing defensively this year. You're in the right place at the right time. And I'm betting that we'll identify that as an area.

Like, you've got to get better at that. So, like, offense, you can drill, you can watch film. Like, what did you do to get better on defense by such a large degree? Yeah, I mean, just trusting my PD. Chris Jones, and he was completely honest with me as well. And he knew that the office of peace was going to take care of itself. Obviously, we need to clean the shot diet up, knowing what spots I wanted to get to, whether it's in the flow of the game or down the stretch, just working on those things.

The efficiency part, obviously, so that came with the shot diet. But he had me, you know, starting off workouts, you know, slide back and forth from lane line to lane line and closing out. picking up full court, working on different, you know, defensive techniques in certain situations. So, but I think just being able to, you know, receive that and have no pushback, man, I think it speaks on our relationship between one another. And I think that's why I'm able to, you know, kind of, like you said, take that leap on that end and, you know, got some room for a lot of room for improvement.

But as far as, you know, comparing from last year to this year, I mean, just to compete. level the will want to, you know, in a day, we want to win. So, you know,

in that end, we got to compete every single night. Have you and Lowry Markinen ever discussed becoming the new age

John Stockton and Carl Malone? Is that ever, is it, have those names been throwing at you? No,

we didn't really looked at it like that. Obviously, that was a phenomenal duo, but, no,

me and Lary had a talk before the season. You know, obviously he came back from Fiber, went to his house. We had a great conversation.

God and Ashana did all that. But it kind of helped us understand not only the goals that he had for himself, but what we wanted our team to look like and feel like throughout the whole year. Me and Larry, along with some other guys on the team, we've been through a lot, you know, as far as what the season would look like in the ups and downs.

So I think it was good that we had a conversation between one another. really understood the common goal that we wanted for each other. And now when we're out there on the floor, our dialogue is always clear. And we know what we want from, you know, one another. Yeah, I asked Will earlier today, like, you've made a bunch of big shots this year,

Chicago, Orlando, almost buzzer-beater kind of shots, game-winning kind of shots. I asked Will, like, do you remember anything from the huddles or drawn-up plays? And he said, honestly, like, those two guys have gotten so good together that sometimes I'd say, you know what, just run your two-man game in the middle of the floor.

it'll figure itself out. I'm getting out of the way. Like, that's a pretty high level of trust. Right. No, yeah. Obviously, we got some things to really talk about still. But as far as, you know, me and Lowry, like I know where he wants the ball, time and space, you know, know where he wants the ball when it comes to shoes or trying to pass it to his shoe and pocket,

things like that, just being that, you know, precise on things that we do on a lay game. And, I mean, Larry, he, I've said it before. He empowers me down the stretch all the time, no matter if I'm making shots or missing shots, he's going to empower me the same way every single time. So when you got that, a guy like that that's been killing all year, you know, saying that to you and being behind you like that,

it obviously gives me a boost of energy and some confidence for sure. So to go out there, trust my work. And knowing that at the end of the day, we ride or dine with, you know, us too. Will Hardy hosted a burger cookoff at his house over the summer for some of the young players on the team. I was told you did well, but you did not win. Walter Clayton Jr. won. You see, I can tell by your face. You seem like you were wronged by this.

You're bitter about it. Yeah, it was completely wrong. What did you do? What was your technique? What do you got for me? I made a smash burger. Like nobody else made a smash burger. Walker put avocados and all that with a sesame seed.

No, keep it classic cheese, been into the burger, fire. Walt put in, like, barbecue sauce and onion rings. Like, I put no sauce on mine, still flavor. He needed, like, Will didn't take that into account, man. Like, we had no space. Like, he didn't take nothing into account. I heard one of the players did so horribly that his burger was, like, eating, quote, onions and salt being poured down your throat.

Would you like to reveal which player that was? Taylor. Taylor Hendricks. Total fail? Did you try it? No, no, I couldn't. Walker tried it, though. Said it was horrific.

Well, maybe next year. You can try to get revenge. Speaking of food, you lost, I was reading an article, you lost 25 pounds between, like, I don't know if it was high school and college, high school, the NBA, that whole time, I never would have looked at you and thought he ever needed to lose 25 pounds ever.

How did you do it? Like, what habits did you change? What's out of the diet? What's into the diet? What do you got? I had to stop eating past 10 o'clock to start off. Okay.

And then obviously to clean, trying to eat cleaner. And then I was just, man, I was just on the treadmill, man. Running, trying to burn some fat. my e-habits were terrible at i and g e-habits kind of got even worse at baylor and then towards pre-draft

started really lock in had to um this is no diss to anybody but whenever they call me a thicker eric gore and that's when I kind of knew like all right bro like I ain't I really like that one was that in the scouting reports at some point

uh yeah I've seen it on my phone one time so I was like all right I got to really lock in But yeah, e-habit's chains, was running, lifting, just doing the same stuff, just being really intentional as far as, you know, in the kitchen. I lost about 10 pounds in the last two months, and people have asked me like, what'd you do? What did you change differently? And I say, I discovered a revolutionary dieting technique, eating less food.

Like, I don't need to eat, I don't need to eat, like a hog. I don't need to eat like a whole bag of pretzels with my sandwich. I don't need that. It's like maybe I can patent this as a diet. plan. Service us. You mentioned you guys want to win. You're obviously aware of this and you're in an awkward spot.

Everybody on the jazz is an awkward spot where they have to sort of talk around this, but the jazz owe this pick to the thunder, top eight protected, meaning the jazz keep it if it's one of the first eight picks in a draft and they lose it to the thunder if you guys win too many games and end up picking 10th, 11th, making the playoffs, whatever. Is that like discussed by the players? openly, like, man, I don't, like, this is a funny situation or like, oh, is Fies sat tonight?

Like, or do you just ignore it and just whoever plays we go out to win? Oh, yeah. Obviously, we understand the business, you know, social media and things like that. Like, they put it out there. Like, we know what's going on. But I think when we're out there, man, we plan for our lives. And so if you're out there, we all says it all the time. When young guys come into this lead, the main thing that they want is opportunity.

So that's what we're getting here. no matter who sits or like whoever's dealing with injuries or um you know if guys are dealing with stuff i mean when you get the chance to play we got to go out there and fight um so so when we put a group out there we we plan to win um so you know we love the game so we don't really think about i guess that this is uh of what's going on um we leave that to you know what they're supposed to do um you know that's their job and we have a job to do as well. They picked us to be on this team. So at the end of the day, Utah is across our chest.

So we got an organization to represent this organization, you know, drafted me and believed in me. So I got nothing but nothing but respect. So the respect that I can show for this team is to go out there and play hard. And same thing for our team. The guys that's playing. You playing hard that shows that you continue to respect the jazz. you know, if you're a competitor, you know, the main goal is to win. Well, I mean, look, it shows through on the court. You guys are super fun to watch.

You're feisty, your competitive. You almost beat the thunder on the road the other night. And you do have Utah across your chest, and you have the blue, the purple blue, whatever, mountain jersey's back. Are we happy about this, that all these are back and the black and neon is gone? Oh, I would say this. I like the New Jersey's. I like the new jerseys.

I like what we got going on, especially the ones we wore last night. Like the gray, the light blue, white ones. Those are nice. Those are really nice. All right.

Two more quick questions. I'll let you go. Best piece of advice you have gotten from proud veteran Kevin Love this season. Hey, yeah, I'm talking about it. I wouldn't say,

he probably hasn't given me. He obviously dropped some gyms. But I think he just, when he had the chance to talk after practice about to mental health stuff. I focused on that a lot this summer and throughout the year.

I mean, and we was just kind of talking about certain things. And I think that that conversation kind of sits heavy on my heart between us too because obviously, you know, he's outspoken about those things.

And, you know, he's done a lot of great things in his league. I mean, he's influenced his league a lot. Been a part of great team. So I never thought, in any given world that I'll be able to speak to speak to Kevin Love about anything. I mean, when we go to dinner,

like everybody knows them. We can't go anywhere with him without taking a picture. So the influence that he has, not only with the basketball world, but outside of the basketball world, man, and just being able to talk about that certain, you know, that the mental health stuff, man, it was big time for me.

Opposing player that you've had to guard that you come away, that you came away thinking, like, whoa, this guy's way shiftier, way, way harder to guard than I thought. I know you're one of the guys who doesn't like to give opposing players credit, but give me one guy you're like, wow, man, that was like, this guy's got more to his game than I thought. Well, okay, when you put it like that, I was going to say Kai Rhee,

because they ran the same play on me twice, my rookie year. And it was pretty easy. But I'll probably say, if you don't say Kari, because obviously we all know he got everything to his game on that end. I'll probably say, CJ McCullough. We played in New Orleans. It was a tough game.

We were supposed to win. And then, you know, he kind of got to his spots. You know, like you said, the 50 piece, I thought he was, I thought he was OG, man.

CJ got some games too. All right, last one. Give me just one thing. We're about halfway through the season. It's been a huge success for you. What's one thing you're focused on working on, whether team level, individual level,

like the next 10, 15 games. Like I want to dial in on this part of my game or this part of our team's game. Yeah, I'll probably just say, you know, obviously our compete level, just staying where it is, but I think just our connectedness on the defense event.

If low man goes tag, the other guy has to drop, like just getting better at that, doing my job on that end. Our offense is, I mean, we're playing great. I mean, I think we're moving the ball. really well. Guys are making shots, getting to the paint. Everybody's doing their job on that

in. So as a team, I just want to make sure, you know, we're making sure that we're doing what we're supposed to do on that in. I mean, past two games now. We've showed that we have the ability to do so. So I just, you know, just want to make sure that we're doing that on a day-to-day basis, making sure our habits are staying intact, making sure shoot around, practice. Make sure those are looking sharp because we don't, honestly, you don't get time to really be together. and talk things out and practice. So when we get those moments, making sure that we stay in sharp.

Kianti, George, just an awesome third season. Most improved player conversation. Belongs, you know, you got to be mentioned in the All-Star conversation. That's where we are now with Kianti, George. Thanks for your time. Continued, good luck, and I'll see you down the road.

Appreciate you, Zay. Thank you. All right, that's it for today. Thanks to the great Richard Jefferson, Moe DeKiel, Kianti, George. Thanks to Billy, Mike, and Jonathan. on production. Thanks to all of you for listening to and or watching. The Zach Lowe Show. We'll be back later this week.

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