The Zach Lowe Show - Game 7 Baby! OKC-Denver Breakdown With Andrew Schlecht, and a Warriors Postmortem With Logan Murdock

Episode Date: May 16, 2025

Andrew Schlecht joins Zach to talk about the two sweetest words in the english language—GAME 7—and the series as a whole from every angle (1:04). Then Zach dissects the massive Game 6 tonight in New York City (54:53), before bringing on Logan Murdock to discuss where the Warriors go from here after their second-round exit (1:04:56) Host: Zach Lowe Guests: Andrew Schlecht and Logan Murdock Producers: Jesse Aron, Jonathan Frias, Bobby Wagner The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Get started today at HubSpot.com/AI Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Must be 21 and over in President Select States. Gambling problem, call 1-100 gambler or visit RG-dash-help.com. This episode is brought to you by Microlbe Ultra. Playoff season is here. So what better way to get into the spirit of things that with a tournament of your own? Compete to see who can make the best tip. Test your basketball skills with a game of around the world. Even better if Mickelope Ultra is on the line,

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and ends on June 30th, 226, multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelope ultra.com slash courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. All right, coming up on the Zach Lowe show. Game 7, baby. sweetest words in sports.

We've got Andrew Schleck coming on to preview Thunder Nuggets. A little Nick Celtics interlude ahead of tonight's game. And then Logan Murdoch on, okay, what happens to the Warriors now? All coming up on the Zach Lowe show. The Zach Lowe show, it's Friday morning, and we have at least

one, maybe two, we'll see what happens tonight, but at least one game seven in what has been a series that has exceeded the considerable hype and exceeded my considerable expectations, a series that has been a defensive war between the best defense in the NBA and a defense that has found some answers against the Thunder offense

that is searching for some answers. Nuggets, Thunder, a tactical war, just there's so much high-level stuff going on in this game to help us break it all down and look ahead to the two sweetest words in the English language. Game 7, Andrew Schlecht, co-host of the Down to Dung podcast. He works for the athletic. He's all over the airwaves.

He's based in Oklahoma City. Down to Dunk is a Thunder podcast, if you don't know. Andrew, are you ready for the biggest Oklahoma City Thunder game in nine years? And I don't need to go back to what was happening nine years ago. Are you ready for what that atmosphere is going to be like? Are the young guys ready? Are you ready? Are the young guys ready?

Is Isaiah Joe ready? Are you ready for Julian Strother to be throwing flamethrowers like Clay Thompson 2.0? Are you ready? I'm ready. I don't know if Isaiah Joe is ready, but I'm definitely ready. for game seven ready to be in the building this is what you go through all the tanking for this is what you go through all the rebuilding process for this is why you let poecu throw behind the back passes out of bounds like to get to this point where you're playing a game seven pocou coming up a minute in we're on fire let's do it yeah i i can't wait to be in the building it's going to be absolutely electric the crowd in game five was unreal and i think that they have another level to get to so i'm pumped to be able to be in the building look forget the teams, this is why we do this. This series and this game is why anybody follows sports. This has been the perfect series. The perfect series. It is such a classic NBA series.

It's the young team against the old lion. Denver's not that old. Just let me have the trope. It's the young team climbing and scrounging to seize its place at the top of the hierarchy. to knock the old king, not the king last year, but, you know, the reigning MVP and all that, knock them off the mountain top. And it's just like a classic young team. They have moments, they've had moments where it looked like they're frazzled. It's coming apart. Maybe they're not ready for this.

And they have to battle through them and prove in those hot house moments say, yeah, we are ready for it. Game four, I think, was the most telling one. It felt like it was unraveling in Denver. it felt like it was going to be three one nuggets the offense was stalling out the zone was working and wiggins caruso wallace hitting threes reset the team then game five it's nip and tuck in oklahoma city if you lose that game at home Denver's up 12 you're going to denver facing elimination it's not going great and lewdort two for ten the previous game lewdored shot himself out the damn game previous game leud dort just to settle down

Settle down. I got this. Moonball, ceiling scraping threes to get the thunder inching, inching, inching. And then shouldn't be overlooked because they go on and win by six or eight or nine. When Yokic hit the Sambore three, the ridiculous Sombor three that only he can hit, a three that when it went in somewhere in the world, Anthony Davis felt a shutter go down his spine because he's seen that in his face in a big playoff moment. When he hit that shot, yeah, it was in Oklahoma City and they're at home. That was another moment where it was like, okay, what do you got? Because the big fella just did that in your freaking face when you had some momentum and tied the game. Jalen Williams hits a three. Shea hits a three. And then last night, the opposite happens.

The old lion, aging old lion, they're teetering. Oklahoma City. You could feel it, right, Andrew? second quarter, Oklahoma City goes up 12, and there's a stretch of like six minutes in the second quarter where Denver cannot do anything on offense. They can't even inbound the basketball at one point on offense. What Oklahoma City's defense reached a level of precision and frenzy,

and it's hard to be both at the same time, both precise and frenzied, and Denver could not score, and it felt like, uh-oh, and Chet, who's been a bellwether in this series, has a nice up and under against Yokic and Al U. It's a three to put him up 12. And it's like, okay, the young team is here. They've arrived. The old team is on the ropes.

They can't figure out this defense. This is the moment for the Nuggets. And in one minute and 45 seconds, they go on a 12-0 run. That was the key stretch of the game. Then they pull away. Every game has had a different hero. This is just like, it's too good. It's too good.

I don't want it to end. Yeah, tactically, every game has been so different. I think that's what's been fascinating about it. One game, like, the thing that kills the Thunder is the rebounding. The next is the shooting. It's not just, like, one thing. And that's what's so great about it is that you have these two juggernauts, just like blow for blow.

Like, it is like what you would want out of a playoff series. This is, I've talked to a bunch of people after the games. And, like, this is like, this is the kind of basketball you want to watch. in the playoffs. These are two teams that have a lot at stake that have two of the best players. I mean, honestly,

I think we'll look back at a series like this 15, 20 years down the line and think about like Shea and Yokic as like two of like the best players to ever do it. And so I think like just trying to take in that moment

while watching the series. I guess it's pretty cool. And like there's a lot to break down here like with Jdub and everything. But when it comes down to like these are two very good teams that have been coached very well. well. And I'm excited for game seven. I don't know what's going to happen.

Did you, did you think, I don't remember exactly what the scores when they went up 12 in the second quarter. And Denver, you will not see the Nuggets offense in a way like that ever. I mean, they were strangling the Nuggets offense. And of course, in there, SGA picks up his fourth foul on a stupid reach in, which really helped turn the game. They're in minus five for the series with She on the bench. Yeah. But did you think, I mean, I felt, and I wonder if you felt like, oh, this is it. They've arrived.

The games four and five were the mountain. And now this is like kind of going to be the coronation. Did you start to feel that at all? Because I'm not, I can't lie. I picked OKC and six. And I felt it at that moment. Yeah, they're at 5846 in that moment. I think they had three steals during that run.

You know, Shea had 10 points during that run. I think Chad had nine. and you just thought, okay, this looks like it's it. And then as they unraveled during that 12-3 run or Dort ends with that corner three, it felt more like the series. There have been only really just been one game that's felt like that in game two where the Thunder just dismantled them.

But the rest of it has been, I think if you're either the Thunder or the Nuggets, I think there's been a lot of moments where I think in game five, if you're the Nuggets, you probably feel like, man, we should be up 20 right now. you know, and for the Thunder, I felt like there were moments where they've been like, yeah, they should be up 20 right now instead. Yeah, I thought that was going to be it.

I thought that was going to be the run. I thought they were going to get enough distance and just, we've seen enough games like this from the Thunder where they go on these runs and then they're able to just keep the 9, 10 point distance and they'll go on another run where they push to 20. It did feel like that's where we were headed. I felt it. I mean, I was, I was starting, I mean, when you get a series like this,

you start thinking about big picture implications. for whichever team loses, right? And so my brain naturally has already, I've already started thinking about, like, where does Denver go from here? And it happened fast. Like, to the Nuggets credit, they turned it fast. And a guy who deserves a ton of credit

for that run in last night is Christian Brown. He started it with a three against the Thunder. I think the Thunder were might have been. I can't remember if they were, I don't know what defense they were playing. They played zone a little bit here and there last night, a couple possessions. And he was like,

we got nothing going on. I'm bringing the ball up. You turn. I'm just jacking this three. And it went in and somewhere in there is a Caruso miss after Shea goes out with four fouls. Aaron Gordon run out dunk. Brown hits another three against the zone. And it just happened so fast. Not a coincidence that I think it happened when Shea went out because their offense looked a little rattled without Shea. And then as you mentioned, Dort hits the big three to put them up three at the half. I mean, that was that was that was the game. right there to me. I mean, the game was decided later, but Denver's ability to climb back into the game in a blink was just a testament to their toughness. And they overcame a great Shea game last night. Shea was cooking last night, 32 points on just 16 shots, 11 free throws. He's learned

to pick his spots and run the ball up the court and find times to attack early before Denver can set. It's weirdly effective zone defense. Denver, I guess, is now the Miami Heat. They just play zone. Like, they've just become his own team. And the cool thing about this series is, you said every game has been tactically different. That's true. Every game has had a different, like, hero story to it. And we can go back through them if you want, but just like every game, it's been so much fun. And Game 7 is going to be, is going to be wild.

Yeah, it is. And I mean, Julian Strother is the hero of last night. I mean, I don't think, I don't know who would have predicted that Julian Strother is going to come off the bench. and score 15 points, go on his own personal 8-0 run. You know, we talk about, like, moments that define the game. I think that A-O-R-R-Rund defined the game, too. Like, I think that every, you know, both these teams need one of those guys to step up. You know, I think last night, if the Thunder hang on, I think it's probably Kaysen Wallace that we're talking about today as the guy that made the difference off the bench.

But Julian, this is the Julian Strother game. They needed it. He was so hyped. I mean, if you're a Denver fan, there's probably nothing more fun than watching him, like after a make. I talked to his teammates, just like, can you believe this is happening? It's kind of like how it felt after every shot that he made. I thought, you know, obviously he was great. Look, I'm not going to say I predicted it, but about 10 days or a week ago on this podcast,

I jokingly said to some, I don't know who even the guest was. I said, look, sheepishly. I said, look, I know I'm higher on this guy than probably anyone except for Calvin Booth, but I just wish that Julian Strother, you know, did not have. these mid-season injuries two years in a row that sort of undid any attempt he had to crack the rotation and earn the coach of stress because I think they need him and I think he can play. And so last night, it was rocking in the Strother Strauth. It's not an island.

It's a straits. It's me and Calvin Booth and a few other random people, members of Julian Struth's family, pounding my ties and just love in life on Strother Straits. It's a wild experience, man. Like you mentioned he gets hyped. I think the Nuggets would like him to be a little less hyped because defensively, he's just kind of running around out there doing stuff and like doesn't even know really where he's going or where he should rotate.

And it's just sort of a matter of time until he just runs into a screen and falls over or misses a rotation completely. Just like settle it down. But to your point, like Russ was bad last night. We got bad Russ again. And Peyton Watson is just, he's going to top out at like 11. to 12 minutes. They just, they need somebody, somebody else.

And it was Strother, you want to, can we just go back through every game real fast and just like the craziness of every game? Yeah, I'd love to. So if the Thunder lose this series, lose game seven at home. I think they're going to look back at game one as just the game that they will rue forever because they should have won the game. Definitely. They overthought their defensive matchups starting with Chet on Yokic.

I couldn't believe they did that. I mentioned in my preview that I didn't think that would happen. I thought that was a bad mistake. Defowling up three, mismanagement of timeouts, letting Yokch get back on the floor, all of it was a disaster. But, you know, that's a Yokach game, 42 points, 22 rebounds, and Caruso was awesome in that game. Game two is the blowout.

By the way, the thunder for the series are plus 32, but Denver is plus 11 if you exclude game two. I know you can't just exclude game two because it's whatever, but it's plus 32 is incredibly misleading, obviously. Game three, another you're going to rue this one game, but not as bad as game one. Up three, Shea has the ball, 40 seconds left. Misses a decent shot. Aaron Gordon, should have mentioned him in game one, has the big three to put Denver up at the end of game one after

Chet misses two free throws. You know, another three at the end of game three to tie the game at all. overtime they lose. That's the MPJ game. If you want a hero from that game, MPJ, playing with one arm, 21 points on seven of 10 shooting. Game four, I mentioned the bench guys. Game five, I mentioned Dort. Game six is Strother. Which of those games do you think they would regret more? Game one or game three?

It's got to be game one, because it was like all these controllable things for the thunder down the stretch of that game. It felt like it was a game that they made a ton of mistakes in, but was absolutely still winnable. I mean, the fact that they fouled up three as quickly as they did was a huge mistake. The fact that you're fouling in the back court up three, it just felt like rookie mistakes for them in the playoffs,

which you just really can't have in round two against a team like Denver. So I think it's absolutely, I think it's absolutely game one. Game three was rough, but it was more like normal basketball rough. Like, yeah, sometimes these things, happen. Like this happens. If you're playing a seven game series, a game like that's going to happen. Game one felt way more like in the Thunder's hands controllable. They should have had that one,

but they let go of the rope. You know, Chet misses the two free throws down the stretch. I know he really beat himself up about it. But like, yeah, that's the, that's the one. You know, where if like Thunder, I think a lot of Thunder fans are sitting at home thinking this should be over right now because of game one. Well, it's not. And that's what Denver does. If you give them life in these close games, they have the best. clutch player in the league, apologies to Jill and Brenson. They have the best player in the league. Apologies to Shay Gilgis Alexander and all of Oklahoma City. And they just like, they've lived these moments. I mean, this feels like the 20th seven game series that Yolkich has played.

And I said before the series in arguing with a couple of people, again, I picked Thunder and six. I remember saying Thunder. I thought, I thought the Thunder should win. And I just thought Thunder and five, which a couple people I know were picking that. Like, Yolkich doesn't lose short series when the team is healthy. Like when they had no Jamal, no Michael, whatever, yeah, they lost like to the sun swept them, whatever. He just doesn't and they just find a way to win these games. It's also cool.

Like these teams are playing to type a little bit. Denver is plus 19 in free throw attempts. I think that's actually a win for the Thunder that it's just plus 19 because the Thunder foul a lot and they don't get to the line much. OKC has forced 33 more turnovers than Denver playing to type. Denver is a big plus on the offensive glass playing to type.

As we go to game seven, we can talk tactics if you want and things that I think Denver has figured out in game five and six and what might portend out of that for game seven. Or we could talk about Jalen Williams. And I think we should probably talk about Jalen Williams. who is averaging 16 a game on 33% shooting

and has had precisely one good offensive game in the entire series. And if you take that, I believe that was game three. And if you take that game out, he's averaging 13 points a game on 28% shooting. And when Schroeder closed over Michael Porter Jr. last night, and if we see that lineup again, which I suspect we will. Denver had to rejigger the matchup so that Jamal Murray was on Jalen Williams.

And like they keep putting Jamal Murray when they have to on Jalen Williams and Chet Holgren, who were my two biggest X factors of the playoffs and kind of waiting to see if either of those young rising stars can do anything about it. And so far they haven't. Well, Chet's had some moments and Chet was big, not necessarily against Murray, but he was big last night. So I ask you as someone who's watched every game of this team, who talks to these guys a million times. What is, is this just a guy missing shots? What do you think his mindset is going into game seven? Like, what's, how worried or what's going on here? Yeah, I think there is a

pretty high level of concern after you list all that out. Because like, everything else is working. Defensively, I think he's been really good. I think as a pass or less. Yeah. as a passer last night he's really good but you need him to make shots you have to have the second score in J-dub and he hasn't shown up I mean he's had plenty of like really good opportunities

if you pause it when he takes the shot like I don't think that you have an issue with the shots that he's getting it's just like these normal shots that he would make he's missing I mean he missed the dunk and transition down the stretch of that game when there were still like a sliver of hope for the thunder he missed a wide open dunk

well not only that I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we should mention another massive play in that game was 9386, Thunderdown 7. Peyton Watson chased down block on Jalen Williams, and then Denver comes and gets a basket right away, or Russ put back to go up to nine, like the five to nine swing. It wasn't a miss dunk, it was just a great play by Peyton Watson. Anyway, continue on Jailin Williams. Yeah, he did that twice last night where he is going for the reverse instead of just trying to go hard to the hoop, which is, it was in a couple, like wide open, like, hey, you should have this kind of plays,

or at least get fouled and go to the free throw line, which he had zero free throws last night, too. Like, he just doesn't really have it going from anywhere. And the one thing that I wonder about is, like, how do they leverage he and Shay together? Because, like, last night, you can look at it and it's like, oh, their playmaking is really good, 16 assists between Shea and Dub. Neither of those guys assisted to each other last night. And so I wonder, like, how do they, like, how do they, leverage those two guys' talent to help each other out. Because, like, those guys are good at getting

everybody else going, but they haven't quite figured out how to get each other going, which I think is, like, really key to, like, a duo of, you know, Shea and J-Dub, like, figuring things out. I think that they need to have more action where they're playing off one another and getting each other in easier spots. But they've just kind of struggled to do that. And so, you know, Shea last night said he did feel like there were things they could do to get Jada in better spots and to get easier shots. He said, I'm not going to share what that is. But I wonder if we'll see them playing off one another a little bit more than we've seen so far in this series. Throw some split actions in there. Yeah. If Jamal is on Julian Williams, have him set some screens and have them vary it up,

have him slip, have him or inverted pick and rolls with Shea is the screener. Shea's an incredible screeners, you know, like just, you know, and flare out of some of those, slip some of those, whatever. I'm going to ask you a very unfair question. I'm going to just be up front about it. If they lose Game 7 and Jalen Williams is meh again, you know what the obvious question is going to be. Yeah.

It doesn't seem like a Presti move to make a rash young rising star for older, prime age, whatever, established superstar. having set up his cap sheet precisely for the second apron era. We're going to have these three max guys. You know, we've got guys on, the cruisos on a mid-tier extension, Hartenstein's on a pretty high tier,

but not max contract, movable, short, young guys are coming up. We're going to sort of flip pieces as we go. Cason Wallace probably looks like a member of the prime, if we could, the core,

rather, if we can keep them around. Seems like a non-pressy move. But, as you know, this would be the second straight year that they would lose in this round. I'm not saying, I pick them to win the series. So I guess I have to say I think they're going to win game seven. But you just have to start thinking about these things.

It would be the second straight year they lose in this round. It would be the second straight year that the two supporting guys kind of don't give you enough in this round. And the Thunder have every trade asset in the world to try to do something. is this even a conversation? I honestly don't think it is. I think that they have, I think that they've planned for this team

to go into next year, no matter what happens, as like pretty much the same squad. And like the Yonis question is one that I think that you have to talk about, but it really does mess up their cap sheet. I think that one of the goals is like have a very long run with this team. and Janus would complicate that pretty quickly as to what you could and couldn't do

to keep role players. But I know it's going to be a topic of conversation. I know that it's something that we'll have to talk about if they do lose game seven. But we saw them in a similar position in 2012 where they losing the finals. James Hardin was very underwhelming. And I'm not saying that the overwhelming finals led to the trade.

I think there are a lot of things that led to the trade. but you trade this up and coming guy who's up for extension and he goes on to be an MVP and you know rise to like really high levels at least during the regular season and some during the playoffs I think that that's there's some probably some regret around that now we're not talking about the thunder trading jdub for like Kevin Martin and draft picks but you know I think that you have to look at that experience that Presti's already had and say like you know what

should probably stay the course with a guy who just made the All-Star team. You know, hope that he figures it out. You have he and Chet, like, if you were to, like, take a guess, like, who's going to be the number two option in three years? If these guys are all still together, you know, I think that you'd have people in both camps

for who's the third option. So I think they're in a good spot. You know, they won 68 games, but, you know, what counts is the playoffs? Like, these are the games that count. And so if, you know, a lot of people are questioning Jaylon Williams today. But I think it would be really short-sighted to trade a guy like that.

Because if you say like, hey, Jalen Williams is available via trade, you're getting a call from 29 teams asking, okay, how do we get that guy? And so I don't think that that's the kind of player that you trade. So I was going to be polite and not even bring up the ghost of Hardin. So you brought it up for the record. I didn't bring it up. I was just going to let us sit over there hovering, hovering, get ready to go to the club and have some fun.

It's hovering. Yeah, of course. I wasn't even going to bring it up. You know, I think you're probably right. And I think that's probably the right thing to do. The only hesitation I would say is this. Janus is the one you have the meeting about. Janus is that good and that guy.

And by definition, it would be short-sighted. By literally, by the most literal definition, it is short-sighted. It is shrinking your window to build a great team because of age and salary-cap concerns. And all the other stuff you'd have to include It's not like going to be a straight up trade. This is Janus. You have to be Hartnstein. Like, Dort may have to be involved as well.

Like, you're trading like a lot of good players to get him. Yeah. It's Janus. And you have to have a meeting. And we have seen, I mean, very recent examples like this week of these title windows come and go faster than you think they're going to come and go, no matter how young your team is. no matter how deep your team is, you can't sit here ever and be like,

well, we're going to have like a Patriots run. Like that just has there, like the Celtics are the closest ones to having had that. And they passed up on lots of opportunities to trade probably Jalen Brown for an older superstar. And they were paid off for doing that, whether it was Kauai, Paul George, Jimmy Butler. They were paid off. But they won one title. And now they're a wash for a year and a half minimum next season and who knows what else. but I think you're still probably right.

And to your, Janus is the right name because J-dub was already a borderline all-N-B-A player this year. I did not have him on my L-MBA team. I suspect he'll make a lot of ballots because the Thunder were that good. And so like, you know, I'm just making up names.

Like, Devin Booker, like they were roughly equivalent players this year. I think Devin Booker's a better player and fits what they need offensively, better than J-Dub does. But that's like, that's not, that's not moving me if I'm the thunder.

Janus is at least like, okay, this is a guy who's in the MVP top five every year. We already have a guy who's probably going to win MVP. But I think you're probably right. And I'll tell you another reason why I think it's an unfair question. I had somebody, I had two actually. I was at the combine during game five. And I had two, except, but I and I eschewed, eschewed, eschewed, eschewed all dinner invitations that night.

Because I was like, I'm sorry. I'm watching the game in my hotel room. And by the way, I have to tell a ring or Spotify story while I do this. I saw Rusillo at the Combine that afternoon. And I was like, hey, man, I might want to watch the game tonight. If you want to watch it together, like grab a beer, you sit at the bar. And like, I know we're probably going to have to rewatch it the next morning because we're serious. And Rusillo just, I admire it so much because it reminds me of people who are like when you meet one of your friends.

on the platform of a commuter train, and then one of you has to be like, all right, this conversation is over. I need to work on the train. Rusillo was like, I'm going to be honest. I'm not going to see it tonight. I'm going to watch the game of my hotel room. I was like, you know what?

I should do the same thing. I love it. I got two texts from two separate executives after that game, after the Thunder won that game, saying some version of that game might have been the NBA championship right there. And that's why I think the question is a little unfair. this series could be the NBA finals.

I frankly, particularly given what's happened to Boston and Cleveland, I frankly think that's a little bit disrespectful to the Timberwolves who have been awesome and have played these two teams really, really well. Definitely. And are on a role and are healthy and deep. But that's the level this series is. You can call it a second round series and frame it that way, oh, another second round disappointment.

Or you could say it's two teams who can clearly win. the championship. For all Denver's flaws, they are proving in this series, they can win the NBA title with Michael Porter Jr. playing with one arm. So that's, I think it's a little flip to say, oh, this is like game seven is the whole NBA championship. I think it's a little flip and a law unfair to Minnesota. But I also don't think it's a ridiculous way to view the remaining landscape of the playoffs. No, and that's why I think game seven will hurt either one of these teams so much. because you look at the road ahead and you think Minnesota is really good, but that's not an unbeatable team.

And then you get to the finals, and it's one of these three remaining East teams, and you have to be, it's just a gut punch, I think, because there's an opportunity there for a title. For the Thunder, it's for their first title, one that's been elusive to them in the past. They've had these great teams and all these great players and all-MBA guys, and, you know, haven't done it yet.

and this is probably their best shot. I mean, it's definitely their best shot since 2016, but when you look at the landscape of everything, like there's no LeBron waiting in the finals, like this is their best shot at like a title period. And so I do think that there is a lot of pressure that exists within that. And then like for either team, I think it's a lot of disappointment because this is a,

this is the shot, I think, for both teams. You look at the nuggets too. Like, you have to give them so much. credit. And like what David Adelman has done to get them to this point to a game seven and what Yokic has done. I mean, it's, it's incredible. And I think it will feel, I think for both teams, I don't think that there's, for either

one is going to feel worse, but like they're both going to feel just awful knowing the opportunity that's ahead. It's amazing. You know, first of all, David Adelman deserves to keep the Nuggets job full stop. Yeah. Second of all, you mentioned Yonkers. And obviously he had a masterpiece in game five. And I can tell you from being at the combine and talking to people that the nuggets were keenly aware that they, quote, wasted an all-time Yokic performance because of the underwhelming rest of team supporting cast around him that night.

I'm looking at the box score from last night. Yeah, 23 from Brown. You focus on that. 25 for Murray. Didn't end up being a great Murray game, but was good enough particularly early. and then you just sort of, you just scroll past, oh, 29, 14, and 8 on 9 of 14. Like, you just take these games for granted

because it's not a crazy game. He started kind of slow. And then you look at the box score. It's like, oh, he actually led the team in all three categories again. And like made a big defensive play on Chet late in the game. It's like incredible how good this guy is. And Shea was awesome. And Shea was awesome in game five down the stretch too.

Made the biggest shot of the game, probably to put them up six. on a play where they put Yokic through the torture chamber of multiple pick and rolls, and he just was not up high enough. And it's just been, this is just like you're talking about game seven and pressure and championships. I'm literally getting goosebumps as you're talking. This is why we do this.

This is the game of the NBA calendar. It's maybe there'll be one that replaces it later in the playoffs. And I just want to say for the record, we're talking about Joe Williams, 3 of 16. The mental toughness these guys have to play under these circumstances. and just sort of free their minds and play. I would, I choke in a game of horse against my daughter if there's pressure on the line.

Okay. It's like, I would, I would want, like when I watch soccer penalty kicks, I've said this before. I just would be like, coach, I'm not taking one. Just take me out of the, like I want no part of it. These guys, the mental toughness

and the ability to just, if I fail, move on to the next thing, is just incredible. Yeah, the pressure of even, like, fans watching it, you can feel it. I think there's times where it's like, man, this is incredible. I can't believe we get to watch this game. There's also times where, like, this is how I've chosen to spend my time. You know, this is what I've chosen for my life as I'm watching this excruciating basketball game.

Yeah, it's going to be incredible. You know, it's going to be an electric atmosphere. I think one thing, too, and Aaron Gordon acted like he was okay. Oh my God, we forgot to mention this. The hamstring. It's definitely going to be something to watch for over the next couple of days when it comes down to like the news. And if they do an MRI, I assume they'll do an MRI on his on his hamstring.

But like that's a huge swing factor because we talk about the Nuggets defense and what they've been able to accomplish. Without Aaron Gordon, like this whole thing could, you know, come apart. because he has been so crucial to so many of the things that they can do defensively and then offensively, like he's been the most clutch player in the playoffs so far. So I just think, like, that's a huge one.

And he said he's feeling okay that he'll be ready for game seven. They'll do treatment over the next couple of days. But, you know, that's not any, if it is a hamstring injury, that's not one that you can just, you know, hop in the game for because, like, you have to run. Like, that's part of basketball.

Thank you for bringing that up. I am derelict as a sleep-deprived podcast host for not bringing that up within three minutes because he's that big of a deal. And it's amazing that he has so many clutch shots in the playoffs, dunks and threes, that I didn't even, like, it took me a minute to mention the game one, game winning three with like three seconds left in the game. On the one hand, you could frame that injury if it's an injury that sustains at all and knock on woodhole. hopefully it doesn't, as wow, so regrettable for the Nuggets that up 12, 14, whatever late in the game, Aaron Gordon is bringing the ball up under pressure and they just can't, like, they just sort of ceased to function for 45 seconds and turn the ball over four times. And now one of those turnovers, he has to lunge and here's what happens.

On the other hand, you also just have to, I mean, you don't credit the thunder for an injury, but you have to credit the thunder for creating the circumstances around it, which is, A, we're not quitting. B, when we dial in, we can force a shit ton of turnovers and make you play under duress. I thought they didn't pack it in. They could have easily packed it in. The margin was like 99.999% insurmountable. And, you know, they created kind of a shit happens moment. And to an awesome player who is Mr. Nugget, who I have wax poetic about many times on this podcast before, is like, this is sports nirvana, Aaron Gordon in Denver.

This is destiny. This is all the cheesy, hokey stuff you think about in sports. Like, this is what this player has fit on this team. This is what this player has meant to this team. And you just hope he can be, I want everyone 100%. That's all. Yeah. Yeah, it's not hard to put together an Aaron Gordon highlight reel from this playoff run.

Like, it's, it's hard to edit it down. It's hard. Yeah, totally. The dunk in game four, which I'm still against the Clippers, I'm still like not 100% sure what even happened. Like I need two minutes just on that. Fan duel is turning your bets into bigger wins with a parley, profit of boost.

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Okay, enough big picture stuff. Small picture, is there anything strategically that has struck you from the last couple of games, any part, and has you asking questions or looking for stuff in the biggest game of the year? Yeah, I mean, like, honestly, the biggest thing for OKC is just can guys make threes? Because, like, they are, the nuggets are similar to the Thunder. they are like, hey, we're going to make life as hard as possible for Shea and for J-Dub. We're going to zone up. We're going to throw you multiple looks. And we're going to make your role players prove it.

And like, that's how the Thunder have won some of these games is that you've had Aaron Wiggins games. You've had moments where Alex Caruso has been incredible, Kaysen Wallace, Lou Dort. But it's like those guys are going to have to make up the margins. And the Thunder did the same thing. And they've been doing the same thing, basically, this whole series, DeNicoe Yokic. It's like, we're going to throw up. guys at you. We're going to make sure that when you spin somebody's there. And I think that to me,

and this is why you're glad it's at home if you're the thunder, is like, is Aaron, is Aaron Wiggins going to hit that wing three? You know, when it swings over to him. Because there were multiple moments last night where the ball swings to Aaron Wiggins. He's 0.04. You know, like, that's an Aaron Wiggins shot. It's on the wing. It's in rhythm. He usually caches that in. Like, can he cash those in? Like, to me, that's what this is all about because they've done such a good job of taking away

stuff from Shea, from Jalen, and now it's like, okay, how do we get other guys involved in a way where they can make shots? And I think they actually did that last night. I think The Thunder did a good enough job

of executing, but it's just about shot making. And I think that's the whole thing with J-dub. Like, he's another one where, like, he can wipe all of this away. Like, he can wipe away the 33%

from the field in one game. And so to me, I think the Nuggets will continue to take away driving lanes from them. Like they'll throw two at guys, you know, right away in the zone whenever SGA or Dub drive. It's like, can the next play be good enough? You know, and that's what it is for the Thunder. And they've done, I think they've done a good enough job. I think Denver's done a good enough job, honestly, against O'KC's defense. And it's really just all about these role players and like who shows up in these moments because that's what's kind of being created by both squads.

Well, J-Dub wiped away, you know, it doesn't even need to be a whole game. He wiped away a me game five with one big kick three wide open to put them up 106, 103. And to me, he semi-wiped away a disastrously bad game four when he was two of 13 on a back-to-back possession, stretch that I think I mentioned last episode where against the zone, he misses a wing three with like three minutes left. And on the very next possession, did he airball

it? There's been some rough like Chet had one last night that was like, whoa, close the barn door. And on the very next possession, he gets the ball in the exact same spot and is like, I'm putting my head down. There's a diagonal gap here. I'm taking it and laid the ball in. And that showed a certain mental toughness and awareness to me. And like,

yeah, you make that shot and you win the game. I don't really care that you went two of 13 because I know what I'm getting defensively from you and everyone on this team every minute. There is like zero let up. To me, the thing that has been most interesting about games five and six is that the nuggets have digested the Thunder's defense. There's not a lot of answers to it. It's just going to be an awesome defense every single game. You're just trying to scrounge out like, can we get to an average offensive rating? because maybe our defense can hold them to worse than that.

But they have figured out that Holmgren is going to be on Aaron Gordon, sometimes Christian Brown, and his one job is going to be at the basket. If it's a Yolkich post-up, and by the way, Yolkich is posting up a little bit less in the series than he has typically against the Thunder, and it's because it's not working. Yeah. If it's a Yolkish post-up and Aaron Gordon's in the dunk, spot you're like a second guy guarding the rim guarding yokech forcing yokech away from the basket if it's a murray yokech pick and roll i've talked a lot about this their strategy is sell out to let

murray drive we are not giving yokch the pocket pass we are staying attached to yokech we're giving jemal murray drives because you're driving in to chet homegren and other help defenders and if you kick it out to these other guys to shoot threes we're living with that we are not living with yokch getting a pocket pass and what the nuggets have started doing more in games five and six is taking Holmgren's guy and bringing him up the floor into the action. So as an example, Aaron Gordon ran 15 pick and rolls combined the last two games. Previous four games, according to second spectrum, 15 total. He's setting stagger screens like Christian Brown when they put Holmgren on Christian Brown in game five down the stretch.

They did the same. Yokic saw it right away and you can see him points, switch up the whole offense, bring Christian Brown up into this play. Get Holmgren up the floor. Run. They ran at the beginning of last night some split actions with Aaron Gordon and Jamal Murray to get the Thunder defense moving and pointedly to get Shedd Holmgren up the floor and involved.

And I don't really know, like, sometimes there is no answer for that. Sometimes Chet Holmgren is still in the dunker spot where he wants to be. But more and more, that's been a really smart. Aaron Gordon's even bringing the ball up a lot. He got injured doing that, but he's bringing the ball up a lot precisely for this reason to keep Chet Holmgren high on the floor. And that's been an interesting little tactical battleground to me because, again, there aren't a lot of answers.

This isn't always going to be an answer. But that's something, that was a really smart adjustment by David Adelman and the coaching staff, I thought. Yeah. And the Thunder have tried to keep two bigs on the floor when Yokic is there too, which has been something that they, I think that they think of like that five out with Chet at the five as probably their fastball. it's the lineup that they ran the most in the previous season.

I think that they wanted to run it probably a little bit more. They actually had it in there at the end of the game just to see if they could shake loose a little bit. But they've gone away from that. And they will use Hartinstein. They'll use Jay Will in that lineup as well. Who's been pretty good. He's had a surprising stretch down the end of this season. It has been pretty good in the playoffs.

I'm not going to say pretty good. I'm going to say for a guy who's kind of a bit player, he has been essential to the thunder in this series. He's made enough shots, both twos and threes. He's held up defensively. I mean, he's beating the hell out of him, but he's holding up defensively. So you just nailed the other subplot for me. They have essentially punted homegrenate at the five when Yolkich is on the floor. And Yokic is going to be on the floor for between 42 and 48 minutes of game seven.

And I've been waiting to see if there's a moment, than last night, desperation, we're going to put Isaiah Joe on the floor and go Chet at the five because we're way behind. Is there a moment where they decide to stress test that again against Yokic? And, you know, they did it last night. Immediately they just gave Chet Holmgren a pick and pop three and he missed. You know, I think Denver would be fine with that. I don't think they're worried about Chet Holmgren reigning threes on them and what it might, how it might bend their defense. But I've been waiting for that card to be played again and waiting to see how does Denver respond?

Because one way they might respond is just not putting Yokic on Chet Holmgren at all. Put him on Caruso, put him on Dorr, put him on Wallace. They have other ways to do that rotating around. Like they'll put him on Holgrin and have him drop and someone else will rotate, whatever. I don't, but I think they correctly have decided like that may not be viable against not just Yokic, but Denver's just much bigger than they are. and the risk on the glass is enormous. But I do think I've been waiting. I've been waiting for like a three-minute stretch in the second quarter.

Let's try it out and see what happens. But maybe last night, it was like you said, a desperation move. I have no clue if we're going to see it again. I've just been in my head waiting. Yeah, it's a lineup that just requires shot making. You know, it helps spread the floor. But the floor is not spread unless those guys are making shots. I think if you're Denver, you live with Chet taking threes at this point.

I mean, the three worst three-point shooters this series have been Shea at 26%, Chet at 25%, and Dub at 21%. And so I think if those guys are shooting their normal percentages, I think that you feel really comfortable running that. But when they're shooting basically all shooting sub-26% from three, I think it makes those lineups really difficult to run because I just don't know that you, trust the three-point shooters in that lineup to create. And so I think that's partly why.

It's like, okay, we're going to lean on our defense. We know that defensively that we can hang with these guys and we just, if we can get enough shots to fall from everybody else, then I think we're in good shape. And again, if those guys were hitting at a high level from deep, one, I think the series is probably already over, but I think that you can feel more comfortable running five out like that. A couple of a, I don't know if we're going to see it again. I'm rooting for it because I just like tactical variety and like, yeah, throw this at you out and know where CIE respond.

A couple other notes from the series. I mentioned Yokic post-ups. He's averaging 12.5 post-ups post-touches per 100 possessions against the thunder in the regular season. That was closer to 16. But it's still a lot. Yeah. The numbers, according to second spectrum, 0.87 points per possession when Yokic shoots or, or one passaway shoots, 0.825 points per possession overall.

Like, that's unthinkable defense. That's unthinkable. Yeah, you've got to be feeling great about that. Those numbers are absolutely unthinkable. And yet, I still wonder when all else fails, can they go there more? And if Hartenstein's on him, space the floor in a way that Chet is somewhere that's not threatening. Or if Chet is stuck on Michael Porter Jr., because that's the matchup on the other end. go right to it because Chet's not going to be in position to help.

But they have done, the word is unthinkable. Like to hold Yokic to that through six games is crazy. Well, and like they have so many other health defenders too. Like Chet's the major one. But we've seen Shea be a great help defender at times. You know, we've seen J-Dub is obviously a great defender in his own right, but is also a great help defender. Alex Caruso is like the ultimate.

And then you have his understudy and Kaysen Wallace, who's incredible. You know, like they just have so many guys that you trust and can throw at him. Yeah, I think that the Thunder would welcome that. I think that that's the kind of offense that the Thunder would welcome because they've done such a good job. Caruso, you know, I mentioned that stretch in the second quarter last night where it felt like the Thunder were seizing the series with their defense. Like Denver just couldn't do anything. And a lot of the possessions were perfectly textbook execution of the scheme I'm talking about on Murray Yolkich, and rolls where they just hug Yokic and let Murray go and help behind it and just smother him at the

basket. One of the possessions, Caruso was on Murray, and they did not even need to deploy that strategy because Caruso was, I mean, you can go back and watch it, literally unscreenable. They ran one screen and then flipped it and ran it the other way. And like a magic trick, Yokic is this gigantic body. The space is like this tight and Caruso just gets through it, unscathed. twice in a row. And I don't even know how he did it. And Jamal Murray gets the other end of the screen. He's like, what the hell?

This dude is still on me? Okay. A couple other numbers and I'll let you go. Denver's zone defense has changed the entire series. They've gone all in on it. It has been by the numbers significantly better than their man-to-man defense. According to the tracking data, I won't bother getting into numbers, but it's been better. It's been very good.

And I'll tell you, the wolves are watching this for sure. because I went back and looked at some wolves thunder stuff. The wolves are not a big zone team at all unless they're playing the thunder. Now, the Wolf's Thunder matchups were all screwed up by injuries this year. Three of them occurred in like a eight-day span where like tons of guys were injured. But almost like half Minnesota zone possessions this season came in four games against the thunder. And you can bet they're watching this. And the second thing, and that again, that's like either the threes go in and, you know,

they've had some really creative plays where they screen the middle. of the zone and Hartenstein's gotten a lot of dunks when help comes. I don't know what other zone. I'm not a coach. I'm not a zone tactic expert. I'm not sure what magic tricks that Mark Dagnol and his staff can pull. It's just, it's been just very interesting to see Denver become the heat.

Like, we're just his own team now. It's what we do. And the last thing, and I wonder what you watch for during these stints of the game. And if there will be any in game seven, the nuggets are only, and I say only, not facetiously at all, minus 15 in 47 minutes with Yokic on the bench. And there have been a few games, I think they were plus one with Yokic.

The Thunder were plus one with Yokic on the bench last night or the nuggets were plus one. Either somebody was plus one, where those minutes have been a wash or Denver's even like won them by a point or two. Yeah. You just got to do better than that. And like I said, in game seven, there might be 90 seconds. That might be all it is. so it might be irrelevant. But I wonder what you've seen during those minutes

because I think the thunder have to be kicking themselves for that too. Yeah, because I think those are the minutes that you do go small. Like that tactic that we talked about earlier where you do play chat at the five. Because that's really your only opportunity where you think you can feel really comfortable. They played all five wings last night for a couple minutes without Yolkich, right? Yeah, and I think that's, you have to just be really fast

and you have to hope the shots go in. and like defensively they are good enough to handle like Jamal Murray you know out there on his own like they they are good enough to handle those minutes

like they they absolutely have to win those minutes because I don't think that the Nuggets have a lot of answers they don't have a lot of answers when Yokic is in they certainly don't have any answers whenever he's not in there

and so yeah the Thunder have to take advantage of those moments just where they need to play in transition a lot more like let this game get fast I think that those are the moments probably too where the nuggets can let the game speed up and so I think the Thunder

have to take advantage of the times where it does. This is it. This is it, man. This is why we do sports. Any parting thoughts about this game coming up? I will cede the floor to you. Andrew Schlecht covers the Thunder better than anyone in the world.

He's all over this team. His podcast is really fun. He contributes across the athletic. And with that, I will cede the floor to you. Anything else we haven't talked about or anything about this game that you would like to end with? Yeah, no, I mean, I just could not be more excited to be able to go to this game. This is where a legend will be made from this game. And I kind of agree that this is the title in some ways.

Like, this will at least be the team that I think is probably favored to get out of the West. And so there's just a huge opportunity for either Yokic to go for. another title or for the thunder to finally break through and to become the team that they have been scratching and clawing for ever since they got to OKC. So I think, yeah, this is where a legend is made. I'm going to go run through a wall now based on the speech you just gave about Legends will be born. I'm just going to run around my neighborhood screaming.

Andrew, thanks for your time. I will talk to you soon. Enjoy game seven. This episode is brought to you by Panda Express. Look, it can be hard showing how much you love someone. But if you can't say how you feel, just say, let's get some food. Or hey, takeouts on me. And if you really love them, pick Panda Express for delicious, authentically cooked American

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basketball, but even dream jobs have the stuff that nobody dreamed about, the busy work that gets in the way of the actual work. Service Now's AI specialists tackle that work, request handled, cases closed, the whole thing done. So you have more time for the work you actually want to do. For me, that's breaking down SGA film whenever I want, and then talking about it into a microphone. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. All right, I haven't talked about Nick Celtics since Boston's awesome, inspirational resolute home win in game five. I'm not going to talk about it much now because game six is tonight in, I don't know,

like 10 hours as I'm recording this, but I do want to say, first of all, just an awesome game for the Celtics. Awesome game. One of the best games all around Jalen Brown has ever played career playoff high and assists. Just calm, chill, make the simple play. Awesome Luke Corneck. I mean, not awesome Luke Corneck game, the Luke Corneck game, the all-time Luke Corneck game.

Luke Corneck is good. I don't know what to tell people. He's been good for a few years now. He's just good. And he's had an interesting transformation from in Chicago. They tried to make him like a pick and pop big. And the Celtics have gone all the way the other way and made him a dunker, rim protector, shop blocker, extraordinaire. What a game for Luke Cornyette.

Home crowd looked awesome. And Derek White just like, you need me to score 30. I'll score 30. What a player, Derek White is. And we've already talked about the implications of the Tatum injury. not this year, not just next year, but big picture for the Celtics. And the potential of major roster changes next year and going forward to kind of reset the financial books, reset around Jason Tatum. And who's left when Jason Tatum comes back is sort of a larger question.

I've already said, like, Derek White, I mentioned this with Bill on Tuesday. he's the one with all the trade value. He's the one that could fetch you the mother load. Not a mother load, like superstar mother load, but you know, picks, picks, picks, young player. Drew's got three years left and he's aging. KP's on an expiring deal and he, quote, can't really breathe, according to Joe Missoula.

It seems like a problem. You need to breathe to live, let alone play basketball. And Jalen Brown, you know, you can talk about that if you want, but he's on that gigantic contract. And, you know, like I've seen, I've seen theoretical pieces like, would the Mavericks trade the number one pick in the draft for Jalen Brown? And I'm like, am I, am I crazy? Or would that be like, I mean, I've already said, I think trading the number one pick in a, in a Yonis-centric deal would be a bad idea for the Mavericks for Jailen Brown? Like, am I missing something? Like, why would they do that?

But Jalen Brown's very, very good and would have trade value elsewhere or otherwise. Derek White is just an awesome player. Like the idea of trading Derek White, I mean, there were people within the Spurs who were like, this guy's a really good winning player. Why are we trading a really good winning player? And he's turned into even more of a really good winning player with the Celtics and just that depressed. But anyway, the Knicks, don't mess around with this, Knicks. Don't mess around.

Don't go to Boston for game seven because they've already proven to you. Yeah, that formula, that motivation, that sort of adrenaline, whatever, it's hard to replicate that game after game. The Knicks, I think, have now seen Boston without Tatum and will make some changes about their defensive scheme in game six. But don't mess around. Don't go home and play this team. This team's got talent still, even with Porzingis doing nothing, even with Tatum out. They can win one game at home on talent and three-point shooting volume on math. The math is mostly tilted toward the Knicks in this series.

Don't mess with the math. When this game at home, this is the biggest Knicks game in 25 years, because every game now is the biggest Knicks game in 25 years. When the Knicks traded for McHale Bridges, all the picks, five first round picks, blah, blah, blah, they opened. It was a statement. We're opening a window now. We're opening a window now.

We don't know how long it will be, but Jalen Brunson. taking a discount, it's going to help it, you know, prop open maybe a little longer. And then the cat trade comes after. The window was intended to start now and persist as long as it was financially viable. And this starting five was financially viable. Boyle boy is the window open now. The window has been, there is not even a window. There's just like the window has been blown out in a storm of injuries and chaos in the Eastern

Conference. You need a window installer to come put it back. window is could not be more wide open the Celtics are are devastated by injury next year is up in the air for them the calves they got banged up yeah they had all their players at the end though and they pooped the bed again in the playoffs the window is open now to make the finals for the first time since 1999 to face the pacers and by the way the east i talked about this on tuesday with bill after the lottery. The conference imbalance, the number one and two picks going to the west.

Janus potentially being on the move, there's some chance he goes to the west if he is indeed on the move. The Celtics on and on and on. Like the window's open. It's wide open, but you zoom out for a second. If like the bulls must be throwing like a party. Like, hey, all we do is like kind of stand pat plus or minus is Zach Levine. Could we be like the fourth seed next year?

Are we staying at a Pacer's dynasty? Is that really where we are? Imagine being the Hawks just fired your GM, Landry Fields. I didn't even talk about that. I thought Landry Jules feels is a pretty good job digging out of one Dejante Murray mess and creating another Dejante Murray mess for the Pelicans and getting Dyson and Daniels and Riesiesce and Jaylon Johnson. Well, that was in his draft pick, but still.

And now there's like, well, Trey Young, what's his future? And now you're the Hawks like, hey, could we be the fourth seat next year? Can we be hosting a first round playoff series? This conference is so goddamn bad. Anyway, the window's wide open for the Knicks. Don't mess around. You should win this game. I think they will win this game.

And I think a couple of things that I'm watching for are they seemed confused in their pick and roll coverage in game five. Carl Anthony Towns in particular. Now, Carl Anthony Towns is always a little confused and addled in pick and roll coverage. But I think they were caught in between this. We've got to switch everything to keep the Celtics in front of us and bait them into playing ISO ball and not give them threes. And hey, wait a second.

Without Tatum, can we play maybe a more traditional pick and roll coverage and drop back a little bit and really test their driving and their playmaking and see if they can actually generate good shots without Jason Tatum against a traditional defense? And you could see them messing up like, are we switching? Are we not to? Oh, someone got open for a three. And I would not be surprised if we saw, they're still going to switch because it's worked. If we saw a little bit more traditional pick and roll coverage, kind of testing out,

okay, Jill and Brown, come into a drop pick and roll scheme, see if you can spray it out, see if you can make enough plays to win the game. Drew Holiday, you know, see if you can do it. Derek White, you're awesome. We're going to test you out a little bit, particularly with Mitchell Robinson at center and in the pick and roll. What a series for Mitchell Robinson. This is the fully actualized Mitchell Robinson. This is maybe as good as it's going to get,

maybe he can play more minutes in the future. I remember five years ago, four years ago, writing my annual most intriguing players piece for ESPN.com and writing about Mitchell Robinson in the piece. I don't remember what season it was. And he was so in his infancy as an NBA player that I remember talking to him about using his arms on defense, using the giant wingspan and how there would be too many possessions where he'd be defending the pick and roll with his arms at his sides and how the lowest hanging fruit now it's harder to maintain a pose like that than you think it takes energy but how the low hanging fruit for him was just like use your arms man get out and how coaches have talked with him about it and he knew that it was a problem now he's like impenetrable on the pick and roll he can come up to the level of the screen he can drop back the arms are out he's just been awesome defensively and then you throw in the office

offensive rebounding at six or six from the free throw line. You go, Mitch. Nobody wants to see a hack of anybody. That's one thing I'm watching for. I'm watching for Boston smaller lineups that worked, more Peyton Pritchard. I'm watching for can Kat? Can Kat do anything with Drew Holiday?

That's the matchup now for him. He had a couple of face-up drives late in the game. Can he get going a little bit that way? I'm watching for Annanobi. Ananoby's been kind of invisible offensively in, I don't know. three of the five games in this series. And he's got Derek White on him now because of the way the matchups have changed.

Jalen Brown is guarding Jalen Brunson on and on and on and on. And without Tatum. And Derek White's an elite defender. And I don't want to just give the ball to OG and Nomi. But a couple postups here and there, run them off some pin downs, just get him a little bit more involved the way they've got McHale Bridges more involved. Some of the things that I'm looking at in this game. And, you know, there's that much more to it than that.

It's a big, big moment for the Knicks in this core. This is a game. You don't have to win it because if they lose tonight, I could absolutely see them winning Game 7 in Boston. They're just more talented. Like home, road, whatever, they're more talented. But boy, would it be a nice statement of, you know, we are here.

We know the windows open. We're not even going to mess around with Game 7. I can't wait for this game tonight. And all my Knicks fans' friends are on pins and needles. get back to the conference finals for the first time in forever. But the Celtics, give them credit. They're going to make the Knicks earn it. The Knicks are going to have to earn it tonight.

Okay, let's bring in Logan Murdoch and talk about the Golden State Warriors. All right, one of the cool things about joining Ringers Spotify is that I have full access to all these awesome people that I can collaborate with now. And Logan Murdoch, Maestro of the Real Ones with Raja Bell and some dude named Howard. I don't know about that third guy. we're going to talk about the Warriors, but it's a thrill to work with you, man. How you doing? I'm doing good, man.

It's a throw to work with you as well. I think we've met like once. I've always been a fan of your work. And like it was just when I got the DM yesterday, it was such an honor to be on your show, bro. So I've been listening for a long time since I was a young whipper snapper. So, you know, it's good to be on.

I like it. Yeah. Well, we just had about five minutes of baseball talk off air before this. So I'm fired up now because I know you're, you're an A's fan of some of my fondest memories are at A's games. And I am a, newly unlapsed Mets fans. So anyway, enough baseball.

The Minnesota Timberwolves dismantled the Warriors in five games. Minnesota fans, we will talk about you. You are going on to live in the playoffs. You have a whole other round. They'll be okay. Congratulations. You earned it.

You dismantled the Warriors. You did what you're supposed to do. You're an awesome team. I talked about you a little bit in the Thunder segment. We're going to get to you. The Warriors are the Warriors, though. And what happens to them is very important because, A, they're very popular and B, they have an all-time legendary player and Steph Curry who missed

the last four and a half, four and three quarters games of this series and was a fireball during his brief, I think 13 minutes in the series. And so naturally, Logan, we must wonder what comes next for the Warriors and is this just it? And if this is it, not that it's over, But if this is essentially the team, Steph, Draymond, Curry, whatever supporting pieces remain until we go out and retire, is that good enough? And I don't mean, is it good enough to win the title? Because I don't think it is, and I don't think it was this year. But is it good enough to satisfy the fans and to make everybody feel as if they've at least given Curry the chance to compete at a high level during the twilight of his career? Yeah, it depends on what they do with the supporting cast and what they do with Cominga.

Now, all fines at this point point to the fact that Comingga is probably going to be gone in a sign and trade. That's something I've been hearing. It's something the athletic has reported. That has come to an impasse. And so whatever they get for Cominga and whatever they do in the offseason, maybe they flip a lot of those young guys that were ineffective throughout the playoffs into another piece coming off the bench, maybe a veteran piece and they flipped that up. But it really depends on that.

I know Janus was the big prize and has felt like the big prize over the last few years and something that the Warriors brass is, you know, openly wanted a chance and a crack at it at him. But I just, you know, that's probably not realistic at this point. They don't even have a package that even competes with the Houston's and the Oklahoma cities and the San Antonio's of the world. So by, you know, just sheer unluckiness, they have to probably build around the margins, right? And build a suitable bench for next season because you're going to have Curry next year. He's 37 right now.

He's going to turn 38 next March. You have Jimmy, who was a little old in the two feet. You have Draymond, who's 35 right now and looks every bit of 35. So regardless, it's going to be tough. I remember when a trade went down, I said that if they get to the second round, that's a win for this season, considering where they were in January. And they got to that point. They could have sniffed around and maybe get to the Western Conference Finals would have made that. That would have been a great season for the Warriors.

But, you know, just bad luck going into the postseason. But if they get some really good players around the margins, they could, you know, sniff around 50 wins. and if health permits maybe get to the same conclusion that they got this season, which isn't a bad thing. But when you look at the postseason record of the Warriors over the last decade, losing in the second round just doesn't make sense. It just doesn't compute because I think other than the playing games, they've only,

they've only lost early in the second round going into the series, I think one time, and I was against the Lakers in 2023. And, you know, It's just really foreign to see them lose as much. But if you were to tell any normal rational NBA fan that, hey, you're going to go to the second round with this roster, pretty good. So we'll see what happens. But they need to build around the margins because that's really all they can do at this point based on the assets that they have.

And just the landscape right now in the trade market. Yeah. When they lost in the play in last season, I wrote a big piece on sort of where do they go? Where have they been for ESPN? And I ended it. The general thesis of it was if there's a fairy tale ending to be had for Steph, we probably already saw it in 2022.

And then I went on to say something to the point of, you know, there's nothing wrong with being a good team in the Western Conference. There's actually a sort of honor in scratching and clawing and winning 48 to 52 games in an absolutely. loaded conference, which just somehow keeps getting even more loaded, and being a team that can plausibly make the second round, and being a team that if luck actually goes your way, you could make the conference finals. And once you're there, it's like, you know, whatever, but like a championship extraordinarily unlikely, but there's an honor in being that competitive. And I think almost

more interesting than the where do they go from here conversation, because I think we know where they go from here. They have comminga as a sign and trade possibility. And I agree with you. I think they, I think they have some eyes on on some pieces that they think fit. I don't know who they are. And it's not Janus. Like they have hot take. They'd love to get Janus. Like they're kudos to the front office for identifying Janus as a diamond in the rough. If they don't get Janus, I think they've got some names that they'd look at. And they have, you know, Pajemski's solid, uh, uh, uh, Moody is a problem right now. They need to figure out what Moody is, if anything.

And Cominga is either going to be on the team or going to get them something in return. And they owe their pick to Miami this year. They owe a top 20 protected pick to Washington in 2030. Other than that, they control all their picks and swaps. So after this draft is over, they have some ammo to get stuff once that pick is sent to the heat. So I think we kind of know where they're going to go. I don't know if there's a big plot twist here. the more interesting question is, you know, they landed on Butler as the guy, right?

That ended up being the move. And it didn't cost them all that much, which I think is a win too. And I put this to you, like, is there a road not taken? Is there a missed opportunity that's any over the last three to four years post-durant, post-rebuild, post-title? Is there a player? Is there a trade? Is there a conversation that is a road not taking? and missed opportunity that would have left them in a better spot than they are in right now.

I don't know if there may be necessarily a better spot, but maybe a more interesting spot. I know there was a deal in place to send Draymond to Memphis, and then the return on that would have been interesting. It's so interesting that Stephen Adams was the catalyst to almost beating them in the first round because in that trail, like Stephen Adams would have came back to Golden State. And along with Dylan Brooks, I heard, is well. well, Tyos Jones and a couple other people, but the reason why that deal fell through is because Tyos Jones went to, got rerouted to Washington, and it no longer made the deal work, because that's something they really wanted to back up point guard. And so that would have been interesting, right?

You would have kept Jordan Poole. You would have, you would have had, you would have had Dylan Brooks, which would have, which would have been had its own bit of entertainment. So they could have went that route, right or they could have traded comminga two or three years earlier because it wasn't like they didn't identify these their reservations from comminga um this year in the last two weeks right like they they the front office um and particularly the coaching staff were at odds with how they felt about commingo right when they drafted him right and the coaching a lot of people in the staff didn't really want him and and uh that was a lake of pool so like if you maybe you trade cabinga um or um or I forget what the package was,

but there was a deal in place that sent Jordan Poole to Phoenix for Chris Paul. So, like, that's just a different domino effect. But I think if you think about what they could have gotten potentially early on for Draymond after the year after that punch,

what that could have done with that Memphis package, that's something that's intriguing. I don't know if they would have been better or worse, right? But I think that that would have been intriguing and maybe they would have asked us to go and get somebody else.

Another thing, though, that like that's interesting about the warriors is that they they tend to sit on their hands a lot more than teams that are of their level in terms of contention or wanting to contend right like they are very very patient whereas this is a feels like this is a league now where you kind of have to make a decision especially with the apron and the second apron you have to just go with your gut in a lot of ways and it requires you to really invent yourself on a year-by-year basis, right? We talk about the Cleveland Cavaliers this year and how good they were during the season. And now we're talking about maybe we have to, you know, tweak around the margins. And same with the Boston even before the Tatum injury. This is a league where after the last CBA where there's going to be a lot more movement. And I think that the Warriors in this case have kind of bucked that trend and try to have

as much continuity as possible. And I think it's bitten them in the butt a little bit in terms of flexibility. because I know the Draymond or what if they don't even sign Draymond to that, you know, that extension, which has kind of been a debilitating as well. But I do think that going back to your question, you know, maybe if they make that deal with Memphis or maybe Durant says this year, you know what? I want to come back. That could have been interesting as well.

But the Warriors are in a weird space right now because there's a lot of what ifs that could have happened. And you don't really want to have that in the Twilight. a guy like Steph's career. So we'll see what happens. But there's a lot of what ifs and what could have happened as opposed to what should have happened. I forgot about the Memphis one with Draymond. And I don't even know that I was aware that that package was available to them.

I mean, that's interesting. I don't know if it really changes their life. If you go back, I mean, obviously the number one, what if is Wiseman. Absolutely. Oh, I wanted to add one other one real quick, Zach. like getting, trading Jordan Poole for essentially nothing.

Like you got, you traded it for Chris Paul. And I know it was a salary dump at the point in time, but that was just a missed opportunity, I believe, right there. And I don't know what the marketplace was, but I think that's another one that maybe was a miss. Like they couldn't,

they couldn't get anything. They got an aging point guard who they also tried to trade and got nothing for. So I think that was also a big miss as well. Yeah, pool has had to put it politely, a very up and down career with the Washington Wizards back up this year. But did they,

they needed him to win the title in 2022. Yeah. In fact, he was really the only two timelines guy who contributed much of anything to the 2022 title run, which brings me back to Wiseman. And look, it's not just that they missed on Wiseman and who they could have gotten for Wiseman, which is, you know, maybe Lamello, maybe Tyrese Hallibur. And like, if you look back at that draft, it's kind of a disaster. between La Mello at 3 and Halliburton at 12.

It's not a total disaster. Like, Audia is in there. Topin's all right. A Kangu's all right. Like, a conu's actually pretty good. But anyway, they also tried to, they sniffed around trading that pick for a veteran and couldn't really find anything that they liked.

They sniffed around trading down and couldn't really find anything that they liked. But the bottom line is the two timelines thing, it's not really, first of all, it was an accident. Like, it wasn't like a way that they plotted it. Everybody got hurt. and suddenly they lucked into the number two pick. It was a complete accident. And the spoils of it, this is generally what happened.

This is why these things don't happen. Like the most likely outcome all along was that the old guys get old, the young guys get better, but not enough better and not soon enough to help the old guys coalesce into this like team that's multi-generational and awesome. And, you know, I still think there's hope for Moody. This playoffs was a disaster.

Kaminga, we don't need to overdue. And Wiseman's long gone. I mean, like, that's the fruits of it. The other one was, you know, this Paul George Markinen thing this summer, I don't really, in my reporting at the time, and I double-checked yesterday, like I don't think either of those things were really,

like, even close to close. But do you, what do you remember about it? I mean, I remember just thinking, like, one, when I first heard about the Paul George thing, it was like there's no way the clippers are going to trade him in division like that wasn't that wasn't something that i thought was going to happen and then then once that we saw that there were actually talks and they were going to happen then the clippers were going to try to take everything that the warriors uh every asset that the warriors uh had in their covers and you know and so

there was it was a non-starter it wasn't close in that regard in general and to be honest like if you look at those trades in hindsight the warriors pretty much dodged a bullet like i don't think that if what happens with Paul George this season happens when he's with Golden State, the season is a disaster. And executive used that exact phrase with me yesterday. Yeah, it would be a disaster if whatever happened in Philly. Then they would be stuck with that contract and be really pissed off. You know, I mean, I think getting Butler, which, you know, in hindsight it worked out.

But that was something that the Warriors begrudgingly did. They were trying to get to rant. And if you talk to anybody within the front office, or on the staff or anywhere to the Warriors in like say December, January that nobody wanted Jimmy Butler. That's just a fact. And it was one of those things where the Durant thing fell through. And, you know, it was like, well, we have to get a subtype of star for Steph.

We can't just let him be as depressed as he was in January all season. And so they, you know, they made the trade and made a good trade at that. But all intensive purposes, this was a, I would say this is a successful. Warrior's season because of what could have been, you know, and they really dives a lot of bullets for what didn't happen. And I think that based on the circumstance, you know, they should be happy with what transpired this season because it could have went really, really bad.

Could have been bad. And I don't think marketing was ever really in play for them based on what Utah was going to ask for it. That was a Danny, that was a Danny Ains like Dengel, right? Like, it was, and again, like Danny Ains was going to try to take everything from the Warriors anyway for that asset. So, like, that's something that, you know, the Warriors have always been up front with

is maybe not the two timeline thing, but like, hey, we want to keep our assets well into the future. And we don't want to be a team that is really messed up once Steph leaves at the time, Clay leaves and Draymond leaves. We want to be able to get back into the fold relatively quickly. And that's also something Joe Leger wants. Like, he doesn't want to lose at any point. and he wants to keep contending.

One of the things that you hear about with Kaminga and why he kept Kaminga for so long without trade is because Joe Lakers is scared to death about a post-death era. Like, and from a basketball standpoint, from a team like marketing standpoint, he really wants a guy into anoint a guy that he thinks is both exciting, that can play basketball, and that can also galvanize a fan base.

once Steph leaves because he's terrified of the notion that he's not going to have a front-facing guy. Caminga is at least one of those three things. I don't know if he's two of the three things, and he's definitely not all three of those things. What was it? It was exciting, check, can play basketball. I think so, eye of the beholder, can galvanize a fan base. He certainly can galvanize pockets of a fan base in both emotional directions. I am contractually obligated to mention that the Moses Moody pick could have been Alper and Shengoon or Trey Murphy the 3rd, but it was not.

You know, there's a lot of people on staff that were, that are like with the warriors that are like, man, we should have got Trey Murphy. Like, it was a lot of people that pushed for Trey Murphy in that draft. So there's a reason I mentioned him. There's a reason I mention him. No, Mootie and Kaminger are the same draft. There's a reason I mention it because everyone focuses on Shengoon. But like, Trey Murphy, the third's good and would have fit what they need. But look, every team can play these what-ifs, right?

Every team has these draft stories that this guy could have been here. That guy could have been here. We had Halliburton, high on the board, whatever. The bottom line is this. I think this is like a success for the Warriors to get Jimmy Butler. And look, if Joe Lakeup was scared of a post-step future, I don't know what he's feeling like after watching these last four games against Minnesota when Jimmy is old, coming off an injury,

and really only had one super game that he could summon within him. otherwise sort of faded into the background. If he was scared before, he's got to be like hiding under his blanket shivering. And you're just talking about offensively. Like defensively, Jimmy was not, like he was great.

I would say he was great in the backstretch of the regular season. Defensively, they were number one in defensive rating. The Warriors were once he got post trade. But like, especially after that injury and even times before, you would look at possessions where like his footwork wasn't great. He would let guys that would normally,

he would lock up, blow past him. He looked, he looked old like during the last stretch and he was also dealing with some illness and things like that's right he got sick before game game four exactly so he was dealing with some issues there but it's i wrote about this on the ringer dot com like it's a great piece i'm going to mention it soon don't worry uh peace appreciate it but i mentioned that like this is just this is a foreshadow on what it's about to be right and this is and one of the issues that the warriors face right now is

when they have step off the floor this is something that's that they faced, an issue that they faced a long time throughout their run is when Steph is on the floor or off the floor, they struggle to stay afloat. And a lot of that is because, duh, Steph Curry is the top 10 player, one of the greatest players of all time. But the offense, whether he's on the floor or not, is catered to him. And there's just not a guy that can run that offense just as effectively as he does. So what you have to do is you need to get players like a Jimmy Butler, like a Kevin Durant, like a Chris Paul, who can play their own. set of style of offense within this set, whatever you want to, chaos you want to call it. And it's hard to find those guys.

It's really hard to find those guys, especially in the modern NBA that is actually, you know, built in the light of Steph Curry, the constant movement, constant shooting, constant three-pointers. And those guys just are not existing anymore. But it's really hard to find that. And I think that that's something that, you know, the warriors are going to try to figure out, is somebody who can another guy that can hold a flow. Another guy that I think you should look at for the Warriors going forward is Derek White,

a guy like that. And I think that's something that the Warriors are looking at right now because Boston's expected in league circles to have some sort of fire sale, right? Like if or some sort of maybe reset. We'll see what happens. I mean, a lot of that is predicated on what happens tonight against New York. But that's somebody that you should look at as well. Just somebody that can play.

defense and also like kind of just settle everyone down, especially when you have a young group like that, you need to settle them down in a non-staff minute. So that's something they can figure out. Yeah, I talked about that in the previous segment about tonight's game and how depressing trading Derek White would be for Boston and just the sort of dilemma they face in terms of how much of a reset do we really want to have and who do we want to be back here, when Tatum comes back, who has trade value in the interim and where Derek White fits in that conversation. But my point is this. I think trading. essentially Wiggins and a first round pick for Jimmy Butler and building a team that went whatever

their record was with Butler and Curry was very, very good. Yeah, very, very good. Down a stretch. Over a non-trivial period of time is an unmitigated success because they did not go, their fear with marketing is we go all in for a team that's just pretty good and we're left with not enough stuff and not good enough of a team. They went half in for a team that is pretty good to very good. That's fine.

That's a success. Butler fits how they want to play. They essentially, given his player option that he had, they essentially added one year of Big Jimmy Butler money to what was there anyway. I think that's perfectly fine. I don't think any of these missed opportunities are, A, some of them were just not really available. And B, I don't think they put them in a position that's any better than this.

And the only thing, I don't remember all. my reporting at the time. The only one that I look back at as I wonder how serious they were and how interesting it got was I know they talked to the Raptors a little bit about Annanobie. I don't know if Siakam ever came up.

Those two guys and now they went for decent prices when you look at what the Knicks gave up and quickly and bear it you can value quickly how you want and the Paysers gave up Bruce Brown and three first round picks

none of which projects be very good. Like the Warriors could have gotten into those conversations, one or both of them, probably just one. Those are what are guys that are interesting to me. But again, like, I don't know how realistic they were. And I think where they've ended up with Jimmy Butler is like totally fine. And it's okay to be a good team in Steph's Twilight. And that's probably just what they're going to be.

Well, you know, like with OG, that's interesting because they need guys like that on the peripheral in the postseason and they just don't have those types of guys, the Warriors on the, and I'm not talking about star players. Like Jimmy will definitely get on the floor. They're tiny across the board. They're so small. And that's another thing that I was going to say, man, like for, and I know Wiseman didn't work out, but they have done a terrible job, you know, building their front court.

And that is not good what you consider the fact that they're playing against the Minnesota Timberwolves of the world, the Denver Nuggets of the world. about to be San Antonio Spurs of the world, right? Especially if they get a, if they get Janus to pair along with Wembe, you could just forget about it, right? But that's something that they, they have just been so wing heavy. And God bless him, he's really good and he's been really successful for them.

But like their best big is Kavanaughan Looney who played point, who played point guard in high school, right? Like that's the type of, and who was a small forward when he got drafted, right? then you have so they don't really have guys that can really bang down in the post. Dremont was playing the five for like four months straight, right? And that's that's not a 2015 Dremont. That's a 2025 Dremont who's long in the two. They got some real stuff that need to figure out.

But back to my point, they also for the to, if they had O.G on their roster, just another guy that can just bang and get like, that can play defense, hit threes. It could just be a dude in the playoffs. they didn't have many dues in this year's playoffs outside of the starters. Well, and Looney is a good name to bring up because everyone is focused on Cominga's free agency. And I assume the Warriors will tender the qualifying offer and restrict him, obviously. Looney is a free agent. I believe Gary Payton the second is a free agent.

Like they have big decisions on these guys. And these are like either or decisions. It's like either this or a salary slot for another play. either like it's not easy to bring all these guys back at let's just say between seven to ten million dollars because you do that you're into the tax you're maybe you're definitely into the tax you're probably still duck in the second apron or the first apron although it could be close um and you don't you get your mid level like it all some of these guys it's going to be tricky and but they are very very uh they're very swan and you mentioned it's good that you

mention never because you know one of the thing forget the minnesota series that's over step gets hurt. They're drawing dead without Steph and Minnesota did their job. Steph or no Steph, like you got to be watching this Nuggets Thunder series being like, I don't think we can play like quite at that level. Like that's kind of a reality check

for where the Warriors are. And getting to that level is going to be really, really hard. And like, that's okay because, you know, Denver could maybe not. I don't know. We'll see what happens with these teams. But like, that's fine. It's just, that's a reality. I'm watching that series like, man, that is some high level physical.

nasty stuff. The funny part about that is like going into the postseason, like a lot of teams were trying to just pick off Denver because of the coaching situation and the front office situation and just how impressive they have been since that and through that, through it all has been really a sight to behold. But like Denver was the biggest wild car going into this postseason. So like there was a, so to see them go from where they were to right now

has been a sight to behold. But another thing, like the Warriors, their postseason, if you do want to like just throw some holes in you know what they what they have done what veteran teams are supposed to do is get out a series early and that's not something and that's something that they just couldn't do and it really like that Houston series we me and roger talked about this um on the pod going into that series we were talking about how no matter what happens in that series the warriors are going to get their ass kick because that's what the rockets are going to do they're going to muddy the series they're going to do a lot of those

things. So it would be imperative for you to get out of this series in five games. The Warriors were on track to do that. And then they played with their food and got it to, and barely won in seven games, right? After just a lot of emotions going on. And then that, and that in turn, like, that in turn hurts Steph. Because he has to, he has to play L-size minute, then strains his hamstring and then they're done, right? If they were to, like, they would, I feel like they would have had a much, much better chance against Minnesota if they just didn't play with their food against Houston. and that's what you can't play with your food when you're when you're a veteran team. Did they play with their food or is Houston just good? Like that's like the Western Conference, you hear the number of of playoff series you get where you're like,

oh, this is probably a walkover for us is like pretty much zero unless you're the number one seed and you get a Memphis this year and that was a walker. Like this is just life in the West. But they just laid down knowing that in that, uh, in those last, when they were up 3-1, it just felt like they just laid down the Warriors there. They didn't seem like they pulled up a, fight until they absolutely had to. And the thing that they, and I agree with you, I really love Houston Rockets. They were one of my favorite stories, but they didn't have a closer, right? So they

could play as hard as they could as long as the Warriors kept it close. In theory, the Warriors could close out those games. And at that, as the series were on, they just stopped, stepped away from that philosophy. And they just, it felt like they laid down for those, especially in game six, where they needed that game and they needed that rest. And they just, didn't play hard. Well, I mean, I thought that was going to be a long series beforehand. I picked Warriors and seven. And I, you know, but you're right.

If you get out, I mean, all these series, if you get out of them early, although the rested teams have, have not played well in the game ones this round, it's still just the wear and tear is so severe. And the wear and tear of having Alper and Shangoon and Stephen Adams beat to hell out of you for seven games is very severe. And I'm in Thompson and Tarry, He said, and on and on. I remember that first game. in Houston, I was there for the first two games. But the first game in general, the one that they won,

you could just see Draymond after the game, just dog tired after guarding both of those guys. And that was just after one game. And to see just the physical toll that the rockets put on the Warriors was just, it was nuts. It was nuts. Any parting thoughts?

Everyone should read your piece. This is the depressing thing about the media landscape is that that piece got a lot of attention, but it got a lot of attention because of one detail about Jonathan Comingo looking off Steph in one game that pissed the coach. By the way, you can see it every time Comingo makes a mistake. First of all, they're very loud mistakes. And second of all, like, you can the whole, you can see the coaches on the bench just.

They don't hide it. Like he closes out on Nas read with the hand down with no hand up with the hand in. Oh, you can see it. Like they don't hide it. I'm sure he notices it too. I mean, it's that it's the fact that he knows that a lot of those coaches that are like, oh, didn't want him, one of him in the Bay Area in the first place. And he knows that every mistake is magnified.

And he knows that, like, a lot of people that staff just doesn't like him, right? And for whatever reason, the fact that a lot of reasons that are out of his control, because I think some of them resent him for the fact that Joe Lekam keeps him, wants him on the team for so long. and they can't get rid of them. But you see it. It was like, one, it's loud mistakes, but it also speaks to a guy that really feels like, you know, he was,

he never belonged here in the first place. And he also sees, you know, other rookies not necessarily, or not rookies, excuse me, other young guys, some guys that were drafted after him, some guys that were drafted with him that when they mess up, don't get that type of reaction. Like, if booty messes up, he doesn't get that type of reaction. Pod sometimes gets that reaction when he messes up.

I would say that. but he still gets to play through his mistakes, whereas Kaminga feels like he doesn't get to play through his mistakes, and it's magnified. In fairness, Moody did not really get to play through his mistakes in this playoffs, and Pajemski did get chastised a couple of times. But yeah, any, it's going to be interesting for the Warriors. I just think, you know, barring some sort of lightning strike,

this is just what it is, and that's completely fine. Any parting thoughts, Logan Berda? Well, one, the Warriors, be fine. They want four chips and a dynasty, so they're good. But what I want to say is, I'm really happy to have you aboard. I know you get this all the time and listen to the pod with Beck, and he always tries to just say, you're great, you're great. I just want to just, you know, extend those thoughts and also just say, I'm happy to have you aboard, bro. It's good to have you on. It's been fun, and this has been fun, and, you know, it's going to be an interesting off season.

Logan Murdoch, Real Ones with Roger Bell and Howard Beck is a must listen. Read his column on the Warriors on the Ringer. If you want to know more about the future of this team, the future of Jonathan Kaminga, the president of Jonathan Kaminga, everything Jonathan Kaminga. Logan Murdoch, thank you, sir. Thanks so much. Talk to you soon. All right, that's it for today.

We will see you guys back on Monday when, oh my God, one of the nuggets and thunder is going to be out. The wolves are going to be playing the other one. Nick Celtics will see what the state of that is or has been. What a wild playoffs, wild lottery, wild everything. all covered here on the Zach Lowe show. So we'll be back Monday morning. Thank you to Jesse, Jonathan, and Bobby on the producing staff for today's episode.

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