The Zach Lowe Show - Has Giannis Played His Last Game for the Bucks?

Episode Date: January 26, 2026

Zach is joined by Mo Dakhil to discuss what Giannis’s latest injury means for the already-slumping Bucks. Then, they break down how the Nuggets have stayed afloat without Jokic, before running through the underdiscussed risers and fallers! Finally, Zach closes the show with his Insights to Mediocrity! (0:00) Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show! (1:26) Mo Dakhil joins the show! (5:11) The Bucks’ season is over without Giannis (12:25) It makes the most sense to wait until the offseason for a Giannis trade (22:20) The Nuggets have weathered Jokic’s injury incredibly well (30:12) The Clippers are in the process of one of the most dramatic turnarounds in NBA history (41:46) What changed for the Clippers? (46:20) Something has changed for the better in Charlotte (56:30) Charlotte should stay the course at the deadline (1:01:57) The Magic continue to struggle (1:15:23) The Timberwolves have lost five straight games (1:24:39) Zach’s Insights to Mediocrity! Host: Zach Lowe Guest: Mo Dakhil Producers: Mike Wargon, Jonathan Frias, and Billy Gil Social: Keith Fujimoto This episode is presented by State Farm®️. Dishing the assists you need off the court. State Farm®️ with the Assist. The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Order now, or is it a Panda Express near you? Coming up on the Monday edition of the Zach Lowe show, we got Moa Kiel here, the guy that if you want to know what happened in the game and what your team's up to, you've got to follow him, and we got a lot to talk about. Starting, unfortunately, with injuries. Has Janice Atentekumpo played his last game as a Milwaukee buck, whether that means this season, off season, whatever it is. What's the trade landscape for him now as we are 10 days away from the trade deadline? What should they do? What will they do? It's rock bottom for the

bucks. That loss against Denver on Friday when Yannis got hurt was rock bottom. Is rock bottom? Still is rock bottom. I don't know. John Morant, he's injured. What does that mean? Aaron Gordon, Aaron Gordon's legs, Aaron Gordon's hamstrings. Most important variable in the championship race. We're going to talk about the nuggets are nine and five without Yokach and a whole pile of other players. Kudos to the Nuggets, a juggernaut, hiding in plain sight. Then we're going to talk about two teams that are up. The Clippers, are they doing it again? Are you buying it, people?

The Hornets. Bill was right. And then two teams that are on the way down-ish, the Orlando Magic, funky. Funky. And the Minnesota Timberwolves who have lost five straight. We're going to talk about all that stuff. We're going to talk trades. We've got a lot to do with Moat DeKiel coming up now on the Zach Lowe show.

Welcome to the Zach Lowe show. It's Monday. There's a foot of snow at my house. and Mo DeKeele is here for Mondays with Mo from Seattle, where his beloved L.A. Rams lost the NFC championship game. Too bad, Mo. You'll just have to live with the Dodgers stealing every great player in baseball. I hope you're okay and can recover from this devastating setback.

I think I will be able to survive this one, especially because we won a Super Bowl a few years ago in L.A. So, you know, this would have just been gravy for me. I'm pretty happy. But yeah, I heard your Dodgers hate on your last Mets corner. You and Sean Fennessee. I heard both of you. I'm just saying I noted it.

I wrote your guys name down on a list. Is it a threat? No, no, just noted it. Just noted it. Just, hey, I understand. Okay, Dodger hatred coming from them. I didn't expect it from you, Zach, personally. But hey, it's okay. Like, I get it.

Are you saying you're disappointed in me, Mo? A little bit, a little bit. You have a rich owner and Steve Cohen. He splashed a ton of money around and it went nowhere. Don't be mad at us because we've splashed money around and it's gone somewhere. But this isn't going well today, Mo. But you know who it's going, it's going better for us and it's going for the Milwaukee Bucks. And the story of the weekend in the NBA was unfortunately injuries and in particular injuries

to players who were potentially on the move, wanted other teams wished they would be on the move at the trade deadline, which is now like 10 days away, February 5th, whatever the math is, it's next Thursday. And that's John Moran, elbow issue. He's out for a few weeks. That's Jonathan Kaminga. The brief comminga resurgence was brief again. Another injury, he's going to be out a little bit for the Warriors. Aaron Gordon, which we will get to, not trade related, just Aaron Gordon related. And of course, Janus, who suffered another calf injury, diagnosed himself after the game as out four to six weeks. We will see the Bucks as of it's 10.45 in the morning on Monday.

No timetable yet on Janus's injury. And that game against Denver on Friday night was as close to rock bottom as I've ever seen any would-be good team, good franchise get in the NBA. Bucks lose at home to a Nuggets team missing. almost everybody. I mean, literally almost everybody who's going to play any meaningful minutes for them. In fact, I don't know that's not true because I think like Jalen Pickett, Spencer Jones, those guys have earned meaningful minutes. But like everybody was out. Home game. It's the second time you've drawn the nuggets in this like Yokic little interregnum that they're in. And Janus was not right from the beginning. That was obvious. He wasn't aggressive. He couldn't just burst through the walls like he normally does.

And the rest of the team did zip to pick him up, which has been the same. theme of the whole season. The bucks are great when Janus is on the floor, horrible when Janus is off the floor. And now he's presumably going to be off the floor for a while. And if that's the case, and again, this is Janus. He said superhuman return timetables before. I'm not sure that his self-diagnosis should be taken as injury scripture, but this is several calf injuries now. and a reality that even before this, teams that might want to go super aggressively for him now at this middle stage of the season would have had to grapple with. Like, this guy's missed significant periods of time with the same recurring leg injuries, including a whole bunch of playoff games in the last four years since the Bucks won the title. And so here's where we are, Mo.

It's done. Like, this is over. the bucks are 18 and 26. They are 11th. It's over if he misses a considerable amount of time. They're 11th in the east. Charlotte, who we're going to talk about, is poised to pass them and shove them down to 12th.

Their only hope, if Janus is out for a significant period of time, the only team they can look up at in the standings and say, maybe we can pass them and sneak into the play in are the Hawks, who are 22 and 25. And by the way, control the rights to the budget. draft pick potentially in the coming draft and are watching this like, oh, we've been rumored as a trade destination for Janus and we can revisit that, but also if they just, if they just suck the rest of the season, we have the best of the New Orleans pick and the Milwaukee pick.

New Orleans has the worst record in the in the Western Conference, third worst in the NBA. We'll have two bites at the lottery app. We get the best of those. And so the bucks being bad is good for us across. the board. The Bulls are now over 500. They've won four games in a row. Like the Bucks are four games behind them in the loss column. They're three and 11 without Yannis. They've looked positively helpless without him. Kevin Porter Jr. is also heard. And I mean, this is it for the season. Like this season is toast for the Bucks if he's out for a long time. The interesting thing

is obviously what it means short term and long term for the Yannis. whatever timetable, departure, extension, whatever, whatever, I mean, as we've talked about, Mo, the whole league is assuming that at one point or another, the bucks are just out of bullets. They're out of Hail Marys. They're out of, not quite out of assets, but should they even dig the hole deeper or should they just rip the band-aid off and start over? I would say, and I'm interested to start here, as soon as this injury happened, everyone around the league started wondering, wait a second, does that make it more likely

they trade him less before this deadline? Less likely they trade him, as likely they trade him. And I would, after a weekend to digest it and talk to people, I would lean towards less likely to trade him for a couple of reasons. Any team going all in for Yannis right now, we as one guaranteed year left after this one on his contract, is doing so at least in part to try to win the championship this season. You're right.

His injury complicates that if he's out for a long time, and what is his recovery going to be like? And I just think we're kind of running out of teams that fit that profile. So as we've talked about, the really good teams in the West that have the assets, we're 50 games into this, man, and he's hurt. Like, I just don't, I didn't see any of those teams upending their teams in the middle of this season to do this now anyway, and now I definitely don't. The teams in the east that have been mentioned, Miami, I just don't think they're good enough

either way to try to, like, win the title this year. And you could say what this is for next year too. Fine. I mean, like, we can revisit that in the summer then. When we have more stuff to trade, the landscape's clear. Atlanta, same thing. Like, we already traded Tray Young. That was a $40-something million salary we could have used to grease the wheels in this trade.

In the West, Golden State, like, like, I mean, okay. I mean, that means Jimmy or Draymond is going out. All our picks, all our young players. Are we good enough? Should we wait until the summer? I guess that's interesting. the exceptions, I think, would be the Knicks who have rebounded from their own rock bottom with two straight wins, including a great win in Philly over the weekend.

And like maybe that's almost it. Nicks, I guess Warriors would fit. And the Raptors have to be mentioned as a wild card just because they have all their picks. They have a bunch of contracts that they could send out. But, you know, those contracts, I'm not sure that if I'm the bucks, I want any of them. So to me, this would mitigate towards Milwaukee keeping Janus for now, potentially just tanking to increase the value of whatever pick they get and revisiting this in the summer when he can, if he wants to climb his contract extension. And that effectively blows everything up. What is your opinion?

Yeah, I think, you know, you kind of laid it out perfectly in the way it sort of set up. it's just hard to trade for Janus in season. When you just think about the fact of like, that totally changes your offense, that you have to revamp your offense. It doesn't matter what team you are. Like to maximize Janice's skills, you have to change in one way, shape, or form.

And I think that's something that's very difficult to do. Then on top of the fact, you add in the whole injury riddled season this has been for him. And even last year in the playoffs, like you said, like it's tough to kind of bank on that. with 30 games left to go. We saw Phoenix made that KD trade, and then he sprained his ankle and then never got right.

And that was a team that they were like, okay, we're making this trade to try to win the championship right now when they first made it. And it didn't pan out, pan out that way. It's very likely that this is just going to be that type of year for Yanis, where it's come back, you know, might be right, might not be, who knows, knock on wood, hopefully nothing else happens,

but you got to keep an eye on that stuff. And if you're a team that's trying to contend, going to send out a bunch of assets. Because it's going to take a lot for some of these teams to really gut their roster. You might not even be at that level. Like when you talk about the Warriors and they got to send out Jimmy. And I know Jimmy, it's most likely Jimmy, not Draymond. Jimmy's hurt, a whole deal, understand that. But there's still other guys that have to go out.

You have to basically give up on your future. And I could see the Warriors trying that as a last gasp. I mean, you've talked about it a bunch on your podcast, how it's that finals run against Boston was kind of it. And sort of the bow on the, that was the feel good ending. We just didn't realize it at the time. Everyone wants to feel good ending for Steph and the Warriors. It already happened. That was it.

Yeah. And so like this might be the last sort of like grasping at straws to try to try to get that one more time and get a magical run. But I don't even know if that team would be good enough with how good the West is and how dominant. these other teams in the Westar, I don't know if that would work. So I don't know if it even would make sense for the Warriors to go for that type of run and all of that. Even for the Knicks for me, Zach, like, I wouldn't make this move in season. You know, like fix the problems you have now and then worry about the offseason in the

off season and then maybe make that move because that's a big change for Jalen Brunson. You know, you make this trade. And now Brunson has to kind of revamp his offense to figure out. Mike Brown, who brought in a new system, has to revamp. vamp his offense and figure this stuff out. And all on the fly in a wide open east where even though they hit rock bottom a few weeks ago or just a week ago, they can rebound just as quickly and be right back in the mix. And we'll be talking about them in April.

It's like, oh, this might be the year for the Knicks. So you kind of have to leave it at, I think this is just those, the teams looking at it going like, maybe this isn't smart for us to make this move right now. Maybe it's something we have to revisit in the offseason, see how it plays out. And for Milwaukee, I just think you get more if you wait till the off season. I just think you can get more for Yannis in the off season. Because in the off season, everybody's happy. Everybody's trying to figure out, you know, everybody has high hopes for next season going into the year and the off season and stuff.

So when you trade for Yonis, you're like, it's going to be great and all that. Like you have more opportunities and you're willing to give up more stuff. I think that's the right play. I think that's the most likely scenario. Well, here's the offseason. Number one, Janus gets to decline the extension if he wants to, which is effectively the same as a trade demand, except he can say, I never demanded a trade. I just don't want to sign this contract that you're offering me, which is my right to do.

And then it's over. We all know it's over, even if we know it's over now. Offseason for Atlanta, we get to watch the lottery and know exactly what pick we're getting from either Milwaukee or New Orleans. And if it's number one, I think we probably just roll with that. If it's number two, I think we probably just roll with that. If it's something three, four, five, depending on your draft analysis, maybe something opens the door. Offseason, you mentioned everyone's happy.

More or less everyone's optimistic, but not everyone's happy. Some people are going to be disappointed with the way they performed in the playoffs. Somebody really good with lots of draft assets is going to lose in the first round or earlier than they think they should lose. And all of a sudden be like, okay, you know, we have three first round picks to trade. We're the Lakers. Maybe we'll try. The Rockets, the Spurs, the Thunder, whatever. I mean, I don't see the Thirteen.

under ever getting into this. They've already won a title, but who the hell knows? And to on the Knicks, just to give you an idea of how hard this is, they're like a quarter under the second apron. Okay. They're looking at smaller stuff. How do we turn Yabu Seli plus something into something that can help our team and stay under the second apron? That's been their first priority. I'm sure they would love to like entertain some sort of Janus transaction. But to put it in perspective, there was like a wild. rumor going around for the last 72 hours or so about a three-team trade. And I say wild rumor, because I have not gotten anyone who would be tangentially involved to say that it's real,

or any of it is real. A three-team trade between New York, Milwaukee, and Portland, because Portland owns pieces of three consecutive bucks picks from the trades that they made together, including the dame trade, 28, 29, and 30 swaps and pieces of picks, et cetera. I'm like, well, okay, so how does that work? Like, what's that? the rumor. And I heard a couple different versions of it. One of them had the Knicks getting both Janice and Drew Holiday, which would make sense because if the Knicks are trading multiple for one, they're hurting their depth, right? And I've played with concepts where they get Janus and Kuzba in a two-team trade with the Bucks. This is even better. Drew Holiday is playing

outstanding when healthy for Portland. The Bucks get some money. Let's just say Jeremy Grant. I can't remember what it was, and the rights to some or all of their picks back from the Blazers, which is the golden chip for the bucks in any honest trade is, can we regain control of our draft assets? I was like, what's Portland getting? And in one version, they're getting cat, and in another version, they're getting cat and bridges. And I'm like, what, what, why? Like, why are they surrendering these super valuable trade assets to add Kat's $60 million, whatever contract to a 500 team. It, like, didn't pass the smell test for me, and that's how hard it is.

And I mentioned Toronto, and I just want to clarify this, I have no indications that Toronto is, like, actively trying to get Janus now or later. They have been linked to him in the past with Saiaujiuri had a good relationship, has a good relationship with Yiannus's agent. He obviously isn't there anymore, but his whole front offices. They're interesting to me, hypothetically, only because they own all their picks and they have big, medium-sized, whatever contracts they can bundle and send out.

Not only the Bucks would be super interested in a lot of those contracts, and the Pertil contract with his unending back injury, which was crazy to begin with, is looking like really bad money. But they have all their picks and a couple of young players, whatever. They're interesting to me only because of all these teams we're talking about, they're the most, why not team. Like, I don't think they think this current iteration of the team can actually,

like, win the East, even though they're flirting with third or whatever in the East right now. I'm not sure how optimistic they really are about this particular nucleus developing into a 55-win team down the line. And so even if Yannis, like, if we, and Scotty Barnes, to be clear, would be off the table. They're not trading Scotty Barnes for Yonis. Hypothetically, reality, whatever. But if they could turn all this other stuff into Yonis, like, even if it doesn't really

help us that much this year because he's hurt and whatever, like, It's still exciting. And now we really get to build something going forward. So I'm never ruling them out. But this looks like a summer thing to me. And a totally lost season for the Bucks who have been straight up pathetic without Yonnas. Yeah, it's brutal. I mean, I think we kind of thought going into the season, this was the, this was the analysis of the Bucks.

If Yonis misses any time, this team's going to be really bad. And that has turned out to be true. You know, we had the Ryan Rollins Renaissance in the beginning of the year. He's still solid. And he's a good player, right? And it's all that. But at the end of the day, if Janice isn't on the floor for this team, they're in trouble. And it's just they don't have enough.

And they're essentially a bad team, which is also why, you know, when they made the move to get Miles Turner and dig the whole deeper with the whole dame stretching his contract. And to me, that was kind of their last sort of shot. I was like, really in Miles Turner's who you're getting, it was over for me then. in that moment. And I don't know if they really can do anything beyond that. But again, like, are you going to get excited about Emmanuel quickly, Jakub Pertil? Like these, you know, these are the R.J. Barrett. Even those guys are like, fine. Like Ingram's had a nice season. Barrett has been helpful when healthy, but like the money is the money. Yeah. You're just not moved by that in any way. And then you're, you're sort of kind of locking yourself a little bit

into this team when you trade for those guys. I feel like that's, that's a difficult position. to be in if you're the bucks looking at just what the Raptors may offer, right? And this is us speculating. But like, these are the names that have all been mentioned in all the trade rumors that have been associated with the Raptors. So these are guys that are clearly looking at like, hey, we, they're available. If you want them, we can, for the right deal, we'll give them up. And it's not just, you honest, right? Like, for the Raptors, Jaws name was mentioned. You know, Trey Young. No. Yeah, you know, AD at one point. Like, there's like all this stuff. where it's like, AD, I think the Raptors actually had some meetings about before his,

before his latest injury. Yeah, right. And now you're so like this, but even that move, if you're, I mean, I've drifted to the Raptors, but like even that moves, not something that moves you. But again, back to the bucks, like, it doesn't make sense to move them right now. The offers aren't going to be in a way where you feel like, yes, this is great. If you're able to find a way where Portland's going to give you all your draft assets back, do it.

That's, that's the, the best move. they could possibly make. I just don't see that happening. Well, and then you get to the summer, and you can even brainwash yourself into thinking, okay, so the Hawks get the best of our pick in New Orleans pick. Let's say that means we end up like both, we hit the lottery pretty well with both those picks.

Let's say we end up with the fifth pick. Can we go to Janice and be like, hey, we have either this young player that you might want to grow with, whoever it is at five, or we can now, because the calendar slipped over, over, trade the guy we took at five, plus two other first round picks that are now freed up, plus whatever Kyle Kuzman is expiring or this and that, for, hey, this guy might be available that's better than Zach Levine. This guy might be available that's better than John Morant.

We can really try it again. And I'm just like, when do we flip the discussion into what's best for the bucks? I mean, the bucks don't appear to want to have that discussion. That's, I just don't see any roadmap where that's better. Digging the whole deeper, digging the grave deeper is better than like rebooting the franchise. It's better for Janus. It's better for the team. And by the way, that's it on the Bucks. John Moran injured, elbow injury out through the trade deadline. I said last week, I hadn't found a team that I could say was like realistically really chasing John Morant with offers that the Grizzlies would take. The Bucks ironically sort of loomed as the wild card of just like how desperate do you have?

actually get to try to fulfill Janus's, you know, desire to win now. Is that helpful? I don't love the fit there, but he's a, he's the talent is the talent. But like, you've got some guards who dribble now already. But, but, but maybe, maybe that's over. And Aaron Gordon, so long as we're talking rock bottom with the bucks, it was the exact opposite for the Nuggets to win that game in Milwaukee with so many guys out, they are now nine and five. Yoketch got hurt. And it's not just Yokic, Valens Eunice has missed almost all those games. Christian Brown has missed almost all

those games. Almost all of them. Jamal Murray's missed a few of those games. Aaron Gordon has missed a few of those games. Peyton Watson was out in Milwaukee. Cam Johnson has missed all those games. It's everybody. Nine and five without Yolkich. How are they doing this, Mo? What is the secret

I mean, I have some stats, but like, it's their effort level, their toughness. They're just valuing of every possession. It's been really one of the great stories of the season. This is 14 games now. This is not like three games or four games. And

it bodes so well for them when Yokic comes back, when Cam Johnson comes back, assuming Christian Brown comes back to the point that I will say it again. Aaron Gordon's hamstring is the single most important variable potentially in the championship race. Because if

he's healthy and they're all healthy, this team is as good as anyone in the NBA, including Oklahoma City, and they have the best player. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think that's really a question. I think one to answer your question about how are they doing this? And nine and five is absolutely impressive mark with Yokic out. Because I remember hearing you with Adam, you know, a few weeks ago when the Yokach injury kind of came out, you were like, if they can stay 500, that's great. Oh, right?

Yeah, that was, this is a grand slam at this point. And I think, you know, one thing that happens that I don't think people fully understand, and I've seen it being in the NBA and working with teams and things like that, there's a level of like letdown from the opponents when it's like we look at the roster, we see who's playing. And it's like, they don't have this guy's guy. We'll be fine. And that's an arrogance in a way that you shouldn't have because these guys have come out and played their asses off. And even with, hey, the coach is saying, they're playing. great basketball right now. They're nine and five without Yokish.

There's all these injuries. Everybody lined up, you cannot take this team lightly. I think just naturally, you don't see Yokic out there. In some games, you don't see Murray out there. You don't see Gordon out. The players kind of let down and play to that level. And on top of that, the way Denver is playing, incredibly hard, all out in the way that they're going and doing things.

And these are guys that are earning minutes in the rotation down the road or at the very least if you're Adelman, you know what you have in these guys. I can trust this guy. I can trust Jalen Pickett. You may not be in our top eight when we're healthy, but I know I can someone gets in foul trouble, whatever, like the matchups right. I can roll you out for 14 minutes in a playoff game. It's not even that.

We need some juice and we need to throw something out there a little bit unexpected. Come out there and help us out. That is the most valuable data point a coach can have on his roster across the point. Like, I don't think people understand that. Like, when we would talk about the Spurs resting guys, like, yeah, it was all about resting Tim, Manu, and Tony. But it also allowed Pops to understand who he could trust, you know,

when it comes to playoff times and in a pinch, what do I do? And now this is something that Adelman has with these guys. I think it's a valuable data point for them. And I think it's extremely important for them. I love it. I'm so excited for them. And I hope this team gets fully healthy. I hope we get Aaron Gordon's hands.

hamstring, you know, taken care of and worked over and whatever needs to be done. Because I think it just leads to an unbelievable playoff matchups that we can possibly have in the West and seeing how this plays. Because we forget, they were an Aaron Gordon hamstring away from upsetting the Thunder last year in game seven. You know, he gave it a go but could barely move. Like I think that's how close they were. And now to me, they're even better.

And I just, I'm excited to kind of watch this whole thing play out. And MPJ was playing that series with one arm. And the guy that they got for MPJ has played like eight good games this season, but all eight of them came right before his injury flared up. And that's Cam Johnson. And he was trending the right way. Look, as much as we want to say like the playoffs are about your top seven or eight guys. And they generally are.

Every team that wins four playoff series has like a Jalen Pickett game somewhere along the way. Has a Pages Stoyakovich in Dallas game. has a whatever game where that guy saved us for a quarter and swung a game that swung a series. You just need more guys. And just on Denver, you know, I was at their first game with Al Yolkich in Toronto on New Year's Eve. And David Adelman, after the game, was so proud of that win. And one of the things he said in his press conference was, I don't have the box score in front of me, but they only had like 11 turnovers in the game.

And he said something that turned out to be so prescient, prescient. But look, in this stretch, like, we're down a lot of guys. Just getting the ball to the rim is a big win for us. Like, we just have to get shots up on every possession and not get empty, dead, zero shot attempt possessions where we turn the ball over because we'll get free throws, we'll get offensive rebounds. And lo and behold, in these 14 games, they are second in turnover rate. They have the second lowest turnover rate and the third highest free throw rate.

their offensive rating is not particularly good. Their defensive rating is not particularly good. They actually have a negative scoring margin in this stretch where they're nine and five. But they're just grinding out possessions and winning close games and just doing it like Pickett. I think Pickett is super fun to watch. He's a really creative physical little score down low. He had like this, he had this play against Milwaukee where it was a Tim Hardaway Jr. Jalen Pickett screen and roll.

Like imagine that. Jail and Pickett slipped the screen, rolled into traffic. Timmy hit him with the pass. Miles Turner came under the rim to block Pickett, arms up. Pickett like just shoulder, shoulder into his stomach, moved Miles Turner and just laid the ball up. I love this guy. He's got a little staccato rhythm to his game.

And boy, one of the wildest nights we've had in the Strother Straits where I still hold some real estate was that game in Milwaukee. The Strother Strait's, we were up till four or five in the morning. We all noise ordinances were canceled for the night. We had a great time. Just a fantastic run for the Nuggets. it should be said, although no one is blameless for the toxicity that enveloped the nuggets last year between Michael Malone and Calvin Booth and all the tentacles that had, you got to go back

on Calvin Booth's track record and be like, these guys he took at the end of the first round, they looked like they can all play, like a little bit of a redemption factor for him too. Yeah, I think that's an important aspect in that, in that conversation. And I think the most important thing for those types of guys is getting minutes and being able to play. and get minutes without having to look over your shoulder constantly when you make a mistake, right? And I think not faulting Michael Malone, like if he wants to trust his vets and this is a veteran heavy team, all that, understand that. But I think developing your end of your bench is so important.

And like you said, in the playoffs, that can win you a playoff game. That guy can go nuts in a game and you'll feel, you know, like you're walking on clouds at that point in that way. And I think those guys are really important. And again, this is such valuable experience for them. And this will pay off big time for them when they get to the playoffs. Hey, Mo, let's take a quick break. And we're going to talk about another Western Conference team. This episode is brought to you by State Farm.

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Get a game plan that fits your life and talk to State Farm today. State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability and eligibility vary by State. Hey, Mo, do you remember who the Nuggets beat in the first round of the playoffs last year? You know what? I'm actually drawing a clippers, the L.A. Clippers. The L.A. Clippers. I'm not falling for it again.

I'm not doing it, but it must be said, they are in the process of what could be the single most dramatic in-season turnaround in modern NBA history. This team was six and 21, and they looked every bit of six and 21. Yeah, sure. They had to get through the Bradley Beal disaster where it was very clear that Beal and Hardin could not share the floor defensively. The Chris Paul thing had to excise him, I guess. Brooke Lopez off to a very slow, Stard Zoo got off to a semi-slow start. Kauai was out for a while. But from game one in Utah,

when it looked like they didn't even realize the NBA season had started and they lost by a thousand points, boy, did they look every bit of six and 21. Mo, they are 15 and 3 in their last 18 games. They are up to 21 and 24. They have now a pot. Their scoring margin for the season is almost a flat zero minus 16. and we've seen this movie with them before.

It's a more extreme version of their season last year when they were 32 and 29 hovering around 500, dead in the water, what were the clippers? And they roared to the finish, won 50 games, had people like Bill Simmons saying, this is the second best team of the Western Conference

and took the Nuggets to the limit in the first round. Remember the Aaron Gordon, Alleyoop at the buzzer that saved that series, really, for Denver in game four. Here they are again. 15 and 3. That's a quarter of the season.

man, that's like a significant period. They have in that span, the number two offense in the NBA, the number five defense in the NBA, and the second best net rating in the NBA tied with the Celtics. They are now 10th. They are potentially going to pass Portland, who's one game up in the loss column. It's not that far fetch to start asking, can they actually get up to sixth? Because if they keep winning at anything like this rate, the Lakers look bad. The sons have Booker out for a week. Thankfully, it's only a week it looks like, according to the reports I saw. You know, there are five games up on the Clippers.

Like, at minimum, the discussion is, can they get into the seven, eight bracket of the playing tournament and catch Golden State, who's three games ahead of them in the lost column and is out Jimmy Butler for the rest of the season? And if they get their mo, and they're playing like this and Kauai, who looks like the freaking Terminator again, like this is MVP-level Kauai, Kauai in these last 15 games, 18 games, either. 32 points, seven rebounds, four assists, two and a half steals, 51% shooting, 43% on threes. And he's getting threes up. He's shooting threes at a career high rate by far. If they're playing like this with that dude, and I'm not like, look, we all know the

caveats. Imagine if after all this, just imagine, they get into the 7-8 bracket and they end up facing, they lose the 7-8 game, win the 8-9 game. They face Oklahoma City in the first. to the playoffs with all the trade history between them. But look, we all, like, this is the team that we all expected to see more or less. This is the team that had it over under at 49 and a half going into the season. The talent is the talent. When Hardin, Kauai and Zubots are healthy, this team is really, really good. Yeah, the Norm Powell trade looked like a disaster two months ago. It's still not great. John Collins quietly has settled into his role as the starting four on the team shooting 46% on quarter three,

he's taking more of them that he's ever had in his career, and just starting to assert himself in the paint a little bit more on both ends of the floor. Chris Dunn's been fine as a fifth starter. The bench, Batum is Batum, but Brooke Lopez has kind of got back to form defensively. And these two-way kiddos, man,

Jordan Miller and Kobe Sanders are coming in and keeping the offensive float, manufacturing buckets, defending hard at the point of attack. there's something here. And there's always going to be something here as long as Kauai is playing like this. But I mean, look, I don't know they're not as bad as they were at 6 and 21. They're not as killer as they are right now.

But you netted out, this should have been a high 40 win team. They're trending toward 500. They could get into the mid 40s and be a pain of the ass. Like this is pretty freaking real to me as long as Kauai's healthy. Yeah. And that's the biggest caveat, right? as long as Kauai is healthy. Because like even during that run, they sent him home.

He missed a couple of games with a sore knee and they were a little bit worried in, in that regard. He's come back and he's actually been Kauai again and sort of that Terminator mentality that he has in the way he goes, I want to go back to John Collins real quick because it's not just, you know, it was an incredibly slow start. I love the trade when it happened. I thought it was a great trade. Well, Beal was kind of like a part of it, right?

That's one of the reasons we, I don't know, we people thought it was an acceptable transactions, you are effectively swapping shooting guards and adding a kind of athletic big man who could play the four and the five. He doesn't ever play the five really anymore that the team has ever had before. Right. And, you know, in this stretch, he's shooting 60% from the field and 60% from three. You hit up with the corner three numbers. And it's, you know, 3.6 attempts a game. It's not massive number of threes. But that's a big number for them in the way from that position that they didn't really get a lot. And there are times where they don't have have shooting on the floor with the guys that they have because they want to have more defense

than that situation. I think that's an important number right there. And that's an important aspect of this rise, at least, is he's playing as to what they expected him to be at and at what level they kind of were hoping to get out of them. This is probably, again, the high end of what they were hoping. And I think another thing that started out for them that really kind of started this run, Zoom missed a couple of games, you know, and that forced them to actually have to play a little more five out. And I think that opened the door to start this run. And it was funny because I have

clipper fans in my life, like four of them. You do? I was going to say, you do? Are you friends with a Clipper Darrell? Not quite, not quite, but I have a few friends, one that makes a point to send me notes constantly about the clippers and things. But, you know, they were worried when Zoom was coming back. Hold on, hold on. What kind of notes? You have a friend who is spending his time sending you like statistical minutia about the clippers? No, but like if I say

something or I tweet something or anything, I'll get a comment from him of like, no, but what about this or these things or stuff like that? And he was worse. I will say, I do have one friend of mine,

a dad in town who's a huge Nets fan, huge enough that once a month or so, shout out Matt. I'll get a text like, hey, what did you think of Saraf's game last night? And I'll be like, My God, man, you are in it. Like, you might need, you might need to get out of it a little bit.

Anyway, but they were worried when Zhu was coming back, that they weren't going to play as much five out. Or they would lose this momentum. And I was like, no, when Sue comes, you're just going to get better. And you can always go back to playing five out when you need to. And I think that's been a big part of them, just kind of having a little, the versatility that I think they thought they were going to have at the start of the season. And everybody kind of playing to their level, maybe a bit above. at this point. But like, we'll get them on track to where they're supposed to be in terms of a, you know,

they're not going to win 49 games after the start of the season they had. But they're going to be, like you said, a mid-40s team. I think they're going to be in the race. I think they're going to be in the race for, you know, that 7-8 seed and maybe even the 60th, depending how the West kind of plays out with some of these teams. And it is really interesting in L.A. Watching sort of the fall of the Lakers and kind of the rise of the clippers this season and the way the start of the season went and the way it's going now.

And you're kind of feeling Clipper fans, you know, all seven of them, a bit more excited. They're all on the wall, you know, and Laker fans feeling the consternation of how how rough the team has looked. It's been really impressive watching this team. And you got to give Ty a ton of credit because he came out. I think it was the press conference right after they went six and 21. And he was just like, no, we're going to stay the course. He was focused.

I forget what he was saying. The record needs to be the rest of the rest of the time. of the way, but we got to be locked into playoff mode almost. And now that they've kind of gone into that, you're seeing them rise up. And it's interesting. But I'll be curious, Zach, because you started this with,

I will not fall for this again. I'll be curious when we get to April, who will fall for this if this kind of continues with them? Okay. So let's, let's do that then. The two-way clock on these guys on Miller and Sanders is ticking. and they're going to have to figure some stuff out about how to keep those guys around, including potentially salary dumping Chris Paul.

That's one thing. Let's assume that they'd do that because they need those guys. Derek Jones Jr. is also injured, right? Like, Zews missed some of those games. And Derek Jones Jr., who was a huge part of their team and was shooting well enough to be almost a two-way kind of player, not two-way contractually, two-way on the court. I don't know what his timetable is off the side. I can't remember, but they could use him.

and they still also have big game James. Like, do I trust him in a game six, game seven of a meaningful playoff series? I'm sorry, I don't. But their team is very good. And I think there was a point where they were ready. I don't think they were ever going to like sell sell, right? They told teams, if you want Zubot, you got to come with way better than you got to bowl us over because we don't want to trade them. Harden, Kauai, very complicated to trade, right?

But I think they were honest in the sense of like, they don't really care about the picks that are going to Oklahoma City. That trades ancient history to them. It's a sunk cost, whether they're bad or good, the picks are gone. It doesn't really matter sort of what they are if you get deals that makes sense for your team. Now I'm looking at them on the flip side at that time. It was like, are they the team that's desperate? enough to package all their expiring contracts to get Anthony Davis or Trey Young or John Moran.

Now I think we've landed somewhere squarely in the middle where one of those expiring contracts is John Collins, who suddenly looks like a really important part of their team. They also have Bogdan Bogdanovich $16 million expiring contract. They also have some draft assets they can trade way out in the future. I'm not sure I would touch those to prop this team up, but if I can turn Bogdanovich, into a rotation player on a multi-year contract that the other team wants to dump. I have to think about doing that because he's not playing. I could use a little bit of a boost.

And my cap sheet is so clean after next season that I don't really care about taking on some money as long as it's not a gargantuan $40 million contract. I don't think they're going to do anything nuts, but they could do something. but beyond that, like what else have you, other than Kauai being Kauai, what else do you think has changed in these last 18, 20 games for them? I mean, the simple answer is they started caring about defense again. You know, and I think that's kind of the most important aspect of it. You know, we're a long ways away from the sort of the shirts that Jeff Van Gundy had.

You know, I forgot about those. the preseason. And they kind of just like, for God or didn't care about defense in that sense, now you see them and they're hustling defensively. And it starts with those young guys that you mentioned. You know, obviously Kauai is Kauai. We know what he does defensively. But the young guys defensively, you know, have added a boost to them and has provided

more fight and energy and vigor. And they understand like, we're going to stay on the court. We got to defend. And that's what they're doing. And I think that's really kind of just the starting point of where they're at. And then the other aspect of it, and this has been a big problem for them, and it still kind of can be in some of these games, is the turnovers. They started the season, they were, I mean, like, the 6 and 21 run, they were 30th in turnovers per game. Freaking last.

That ball was flying everywhere, and it was all over the place. And, you know, now in this run, it's about 15th, it's league average. It will probably, for them, it needs to get even better. But you're seeing progress, right? It's going up. And just, you know, lo and behold, you don't turn the ball over.

You're not giving live ball turnovers. You're allowed to set your defense. You're allowed to play half court schemes to have to play half court offense against you. You're in a much better situation than where you're at. They've given up fewer fast break points than where they were at the, you know, during that stretch,

right? I compare, I call it the shitty clippers and the good clippers, right? And so like during the shitty clipper run, 17 points, you know, fast break points allowed. You know,

now it's at about 14. You know, it's points off turnover, I think, was around 20, and now it's, it's closer to like 16. Like, they're getting those numbers down. And those are the two things. And turnovers affect your defense. And I don't think people fully understand it. Live ball turnovers are death to defense because now it's transition. You're not able to get back.

You guys, you're in scramble mode. You're in a difficult position. When you can cut down live ball turnovers, your defense has a chance to be set. your offense obviously gets a possession, gets a chance to get the ball to the rim the way David Adelman was talking about how important it was. That's important for everybody. And I think the, then you're able of when the ball goes through the hoop, you're able to set the defense. And I think that's an important aspect. The defense has actually mattered and they're cutting down on their turnovers. The two statistical changes that have happened are turnovers. And that's, that's Kauai.

Like the way Kauai plays, a lot of ISO ball, a lot of mid-range jumpers, that's a low turnover style of play. And they've gone from free throw rate on offense average to number one in the league. They're getting to the line a ton and their free throw rate has gone up while the league's overall free throw rate has gone down. And on defense, obviously they've been playing way better. Look, this is an old geyser team. They play slow. They're always going to play slow. But I swear, the stats will not show it, at least the stats I like that. I didn't do too deep a dive on it. In their last three or four games, like the Lakers, they ran the Lakers off the floor and who they play. Oh, the Nets.

They smoke the Nets. They're appropriately looking for, I'll just call it semi-transition. They're not going to be like a run and gun team. But Hardin is getting the ball up fast. They're looking at hit-aheads. They're playing a little bit early in possessions selectively, which you can do after stops. And Hardin, Hardin looks as like as quick twitch fast as I've seen him in, quite in like years possibly.

And he didn't make my All-Star roster. He was on my apologies list. I've seen All-Star columns and listen to All-Star Podcasts where he doesn't even get a mention. He's got a real case to make the, I mean, I think it's an uphill battle. But if he makes it,

I wouldn't, I wouldn't particularly because he's the durable one. He at least plays every game. He's been great. And this is, you know, this is a legit kind of, it's a fun.

It's a fun team. they got going and we'll see what they do at the deadline and they're shooting better from three and that obviously helps everything and kawai's been unbelievable just like absolutely unbelievable yeah sorry let's go to another team across the conference across the other conference do you remember which team um selected she gildjus alexander with the uh 11th pick in the 2018 NBA draft it was the charlotte hornets it was the charlotte hornets and they traded him to the Clippers for the rights to Miles Bridges and two second round picks. Didn't work out great for the Hornets.

However, what is working out great is pretty much everything for the Hornets right now. Another team that ran the Lakers off the floor recently, they are only 18 and 28, Mo. Only 18 to 28. That's good for a solid 12th in the junior varsity conference. However, there are only three games out of the Hawks. And they now have a positive scoring differential for the season. They are plus 24 overall for the season. They are eighth in offense.

Overall, Charlotte Hurons are eighth in offense. With Ball, Miller, and Bill Simmons' favorite player on the floor together, they are plus nine and a half points per 100 possessions. They're starting lineup, those three guys plus bridges, plus the switchiest, hungriest offensive rebounder for an undersized center, Musa Diabate is plus 60. total points at 138 minutes. This is like a real thing that's happening.

The 55 point win over Utah is inflating their numbers a little bit. So let's just say they're plus zero instead of plus 24. That's a normal blowout win instead of a crazy blowout win. It's very clear something is happening here. There are structural things that Charles Lee has done that are really nice bedrocks to have as you build up from a team. They're first in free throw rate on defense. They do not foul.

Now they don't force any turnovers, but at least, you're getting the trade-off of being sort of a low-risk playback defense. Another trade-off they get from that is their first in defensive rebounding. So if you're going to sacrifice turnovers and aggression, you better nail fouls and defensive rebounding, and they do. They don't allow a lot of threes, and they don't allow a lot of shots at the rim. And in fact, they allow the fewest corner threes in the entire NBA and the third or the fifth most above the break threes on defense.

That's not an accident. When the split is that dramatic, that's a thing that the coaches are stressing and the players are executing. And on offense, they take tons of threes and they get to the rim a lot. All of that is like when the talent catches up to the infrastructure, it could get interesting. And that's happening right now in real time. What are you seeing with this team that's most interesting to you, short term, medium term, long term. I think just off the bat when you watch their offense, it's really kind of the movement in the way they get into sets. Lamello gets off the ball quickly.

Look, he's always a good passer, was always a willing passer. But he gets off it quickly. They have three guys that can initiate offense between him, Brandon Miller, and Conniple. And I think when you're looking at it in that sense, it's a three-headed monster in the way the offense is sort of operated. Lamello comes off a ball screen. At the same time, you have Brandon Miller coming off of a. stagger pin down and then you kick it to him and then he's going to work. And it's all those different things.

Meanwhile, you have canyples movement off ball and finding the right spots there. And then when he catches, if you run him off the three point line, he can put it down on the floor a little bit and you're getting some actions there across the board. And then you're finding guys like, you know, Miles Bridges is sort of having a resurgence in that regard. And then, you know, the Diabate pickup, you know, putting him back in the starting lineup, I felt like has completely sort of changed and invigorated the team in terms of the way he's able to attack.

And then it's just a fast team. And they fly in the way that they play. Like it's incredibly offensive to watch. And I think the stuff we're seeing is like, you know, running pistol action or, you know, La Mello ball can kick it up to con can'tipal. And it's either a handoff back to Lamello or he's getting a ball screen from Diabate and ready to go to work. And at the same time, you got to be hugged up on the weak side because Miller's, coming off of a pin down with bridges, and you're having a whole sorts of different little

actions that are going on there. I love everything Charles Lee has put in place. And to be honest, this all started last year. The way you say it is perfect. Install the infrastructure. The talent level will eventually get to where the infrastructure will begin to show that it's working. And we're beginning to see that. The talent level is rising across the board with this team. And I'm just incredibly impressed with everything that they've sort of put into place. And then it's like you said, defensively, they're bought in. Rebounding, not fouling. We're going to keep the ball in front of us. We're not going to let you guys get behind us. We're not going to silly fouls, reach and things. It's going to happen from time to time and all that. But still, we're going to play solid

defensively and not put ourselves at risk a lot of times. And then we're just going to make sure we limit the amount of opportunities you get. And we're going to fly once we get the rebounds. Those are the things like just off the bat I'm watching when I see them. And I'm kind of like, yeah, this is the fun team to watch. This is why Bill had them so high up in his league pass rating. And he's denied you the ride of the bandwagon. I thought he was blinded by his adoration for Concanipal. But this team's really fun to watch.

You throw in Eric Collins just, I mean, I can't soon. That guy sprays it enough. You know, the coaching part is interesting because when you are low and fast, and when you're very good at not fouling and getting defensive rebounds and all that, those are sort of bedrocks of a conservative defensive system that was very Mike Budenholzerie. And Charles Lee is coached under Mike Boodenholzer in multiple spots. And it almost flirts with like the Doc Rivers were emphasizing defensive rebounding above transition offense.

We're going to play super low risk. We're not going to crash the offensive glass at all. But it's almost the best of both. because they're getting a lot of the boot and holes. They're low-hanging fruit stuff of free throws not allowed and defensive rebounds and all that. But they're also fourth in offensive rebounding. So there's an aggression level when appropriate and they play fast. And they should play actually, I think they should play faster.

I don't think they're playing fast enough. So it's not just, oh, we're going to just play this low-risk, ultra-conservative style across the board. It's picking and choosing sort of the best elements of Charles Lee's coaching experience and his mentors, plus what this team should be. And like Cinnipple Ball Miller, three like sized players, right? They're all more or less wing-ish sized players should be theoretically easy for defenses to switch all of their actions.

But that's not how it plays out in reality because most likely you're going to have a small player guarding one of those three and a couple other big defenders who they can get switched onto if they run the actions right. And they run a lot of dynamic. stuff between them. Like, Knieipple will be flying along the baseline, take a total right turn, like right angle turn, come right up the gut of the paint, take a hand off at the top of the key.

And all of a sudden he's running a pick and roll that's like, wait, where did he come from? What's happening? And it might be a stagger screen with Brandon Miller as one of the screeners and Diabate as a second screener. And that confuses the action. Or if Kinnipel is one of the screeners in that kind of action, he'll fake a screen and flare out to the three point line. all of a sudden the defense is, wait, I thought we were switching.

Now we're confused now. And then you're dead. And I like when they even get Lamello moving off the ball like that. I'd like to see them do that more exactly the same way I described with Kinniple. Empty side picket rolls where he comes up from the corner into a handoff because the less dancing you have Lamello doing probably, you want him to do a certain amount of dancing. And by the way, one of the things I have loved about some of his recent games in

particularly that Lakers game is Lamello hunting chances. to isolate against slower defenders and leaning into, you know what, Jake Laravia, you know what, Luca Donchich, I can just, I can just blow by you. I'm not going to settle for a step back three. I'm actually going to blow by you, get into the lane and create something from there. They're just finding the right sort of mix of actions. And I mentioned smaller defenders and bigger defenders. And that's where Brandon Miller is getting really interesting to me because he's got that old school, Paul Georgie, midrange game.

when he gets smaller defenders on him, he doesn't always get all the way to the rim. His decision making is still like a half a beat slower than you want it to be, but it's progressing. But he can rise up over your classic 6-3 point guard and just score over them or through them. And he's lately, like when he gets a big guy on the switch, like I'll take you out and I'll like,

I'll dance with you and I'll blow by you and get into the lane. He's the guy who I think they need to become like the switch destroyer in both directions. And the three of them together, it's just, it's a really good mix. Yeah, you can't deny it.

And I think Miller will get to that, right? I think, you know, look, his first season was derailed with injuries and things like that.

I think we're beginning to kind of see what made him such an eye draft pick in the way. And they picked him over scoot, and that looks really smart

at this point right now. And I think you're, you're just seeing him kind of come into it and scratch the surface of all this things. I think he's going to get into that stuff. I think it's just going to take a little bit of time. But when you're watching

the way he plays now, there's a level of calmness to it too. And I really kind of just enjoy it. And I just love watching the three of those guys play. Like just the trio with them on the court. There's so many fun things you can see them do offensively. And I'm excited. This is a fun group to watch and enjoy in the way that they're playing. And he will, I'm telling you, he will get there, Zach. Like in a year or two, we're going to be talking about him as just absolutely smothering switches. It just takes time right now. And it's going to take him some time to develop that a little bit more.

But even now, we're just scratching the surface of what Brandon Miller can really do. It's going to be really interesting to see what they do in the next 10 days. Because they have a lot of assets. They have a Dallas pick, top two protected next season. They have an extra pick this year. They have a Miami pick. The Terry Rozier pick. Oh, boy.

Another extra pick in 2029. And they have Lamello ball. Most polarizing player in the NBA, maybe. Well, top five. I think we could probably find other more polarizing players. I'm confident in two things. They were never going to splurge on like a win now veteran move. You know, people floated.

I even just said theoretically, they'd be a really fun Anthony Davis team when Nico got fired. They were never going to do anything like that for a player anywhere near that age. This is a patient ownership group that's, Since they took over Rick Schnoll and Gabe Plotkin and Jeff Peterson as the GM, every move has been years down the line, just accumulating assets years down the line. Very little interest in like, we got to make the play it. Like that hasn't been the M.O.

And I don't think that's going to change. I also think they were never going to sell low on the Mello Ball. And they're not going to now. If you like really bold them over with a huge offer, sure, they would think about it. And obviously everyone has a sort of love, hate relationship with Lamello in terms of his decision-making, shot selection, crazy stuff that he does on the floor, all that defense comes and goes. It's been better the last couple weeks. We've said that before about other two-week periods, and it's backslid into wildness after that.

So we'll see. I think the most likely scenario is they sell on the margins. And if they make the play-in by accident, because. Milwaukee stinks or Atlanta stinks. Okay, we'll probably lose in the plan and be in the lottery anyway. And if we slide a little bit because we trade Colin Sexton for three second round picks and we trade Josh Green for, I don't know, what you can get for Josh Green. Like it's all like the fact that Grant Williams has come back healthy and taken some of

Tejohn Salon's minutes in some of these games when Tejon's lawn has clearly leveled up as a player and has been a helpful player. That to me tells me all I need to know about like, hey, anyone watching these Grant Williams games? I think a couple second round picks. He could really help you out. So I would expect them to proceed that way. And if they got another bite at the lottery apple,

I don't think they would mind that. That's just my educated guess. But this team hell of a lot of fun, man. And Charlotte's a good NBA city, good NBA market, good fans, cool uniforms and not the creamsicle ones they're wearing now and then. Good for the NBA when Charlotte is good. I also just to kind of just, I want them to stay the course right now. Like this is the team that, hey, let's make a run for the plan.

Maybe we make it. Maybe we don't. You know, tinker around the margins, no problem. But I don't want an earth-shattering move right now because you're seeing what's that. You're seeing kind of a foundation of what can be something here. And this is like you said, it's a fun city. When this team is good, it's a fun vibe across the board. I mean, remember we had the, the, the, the, the, the,

Charlotte, the mascot with Hugo. Hugo, caught on fire, literally. Yeah, I mean, like, we just have a fun mascot in that. I don't remember him catching fire. He jumped through a flaming hoop and they never did that stunt again, I don't think, because he caught on fire. You know, I think that's the stuff that you see from them. I just stay the course right now because this is going to be the team that we'll be looking at going,

like, you know, next season going, like, this really started last year when they made a push for the plane, didn't. make it, but they were playing valuable games at the end of the season. Like, this can be that team for even next season. So just don't tinker too much and stay the course because I think you have a hell of a coach in Charles Lee. I think you got a nice young core right now that's really kind of developing. You're heading in the right direction.

That's sometimes all I want to see from certain teams. I mean, you know how I feel about Lamello and how I've always felt about Lamello. moment. Lamello's relationship with the paint and the basket, one of the most fraught and interesting in the NBA. He doesn't get there enough. And other coaches, Steve Clifford talked with me about this,

have tried to get him to keep his dribble alive and like prod the paint a little bit more slowly and patiently sometimes. And sometimes he does and then it goes out of style for him. This year, his rim shots are down. But he does look like he's making an effort to get into the paint. And when he gets in there,

I don't really know what's happening in his brain because there are so many possessions where he has like a pretty good layup and he just doesn't want to shoot them sometimes. He's like double clutches and then throws a lob. And like just man, just keep going. You got a straight line drive. You're going to get fouled or you're going to get to the rim.

And if that ever, if that balance ever enters his game, just look out. He's a really good offensive player. All the numbers have always been. Their offense is way better with him on the floor. Some of that is because his backups have not been good enough, but they shoot much better when he's on the floor. All that stuff is true this year.

I'm just saying, okay, Mo, let's take one more quick break and then we'll talk about some teams trending in less good directions. This episode is brought to by eBay. You guys know that watching basketball is my thing, obviously, but you know what else is collecting basketball memorabilia, and that's why you got to love eBay. It's like a never-ending merch store, vintage basketball cards, old school jerseys, one-off fan-made artwork.

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Available in select areas, terms apply. All right, I want to talk about a couple other teams that are perhaps going through less happy times. Orlando and Minnesota, let's start with the magic. I mean, it's not like bad, Mo. They're 23 and 21. Solid eighth in the east, eighth with a bullet in the Eastern Conference. So not bad. They've obviously had injuries.

Jalen Suggs just came back. Over the weekend, Franz Wagner has missed some games after playing in the Europe game. Mo Wagner just came back and on and on a palo, Bankero missed time earlier in the season. Franz has missed a bunch of time with the ankle stuff. So 23 and 21, you know, it's like totally explainable, acceptable outcome. They are, I don't want to send up any warning fliers here, Mo. They're down to 19th in offense, tied for 19th in offense slash 20th. you know my favorite stat that they haven't been in the top 20 in like 13 seasons since

White Howard was there. It looked like a lock to break the street, book the parade route, all that now. It's not looking so great. And they are 14th in defense. They have a minus two point differential for the season. They are nine and 12 in their last 21 games. It just can't get in any kind of rhythm. It's loss, win, loss, loss, win, loss, win.

They can't win consecutive games. God forbid they win three in a row. they have this Bancaro funk hanging over their team that he just hasn't, he hasn't been good enough and he hasn't developed in the ways that they would hope he would develop. And there's just a lot of interesting stuff here. The Bancero Franz Fitt thing, which is still sort of TBD because when they play with Suggs and Bain and Carter, that lineup has been quite good.

They just haven't played together at all. Suggs is always her. Anthony Black has blossomed into a starter-level player, for sure, and a potential like fringe All-Star pretty soon, if he keeps playing like this, which gives them six starters. They can't start six players. So I'm curious who comes off the bench.

Again, is it Anthony Black? I assume it is. But at some point, they're going to have to pay Anthony Black. And I just don't think they can pay Anthony Black plus Franz a Max, plus Paolo a Max, plus Suggs what he's making. and you've talked about it a lot. Like I just don't think, I just don't think this team runs enough

functional offense under Jamal Mosley. And that's not all Jamal Mosley's fault. But if this team just farts out of the play-in or farts out of the first round in the East after trading four first-round picks for Desmond Bain, I don't, they're not going to care that they had all these injuries. They're going to look hard at several aspects of their team. Banerwin Wagner, the coach,

everything. But this team, it's just funky, man. I've watched them a lot recently. It's just funky. It's good for a quarter, bad for a quarter. Good for a night, bad for two nights. And that's just not, injuries aside, I get it. It's just not, it's funky. Yeah, it's one of the more frustrating things when I watch

this group. Like this is, you're saying it's not bad. To me, this is bad. Okay. Look, this is not. This is not. Just go in, Hmong. This is not who they were supposed to be. Like, this is not who this team was supposed. Eighth is not what they were supposed to be. You're doing the opposite of the Dennis Smith. They are who we think we are.

Yeah, exactly. Whatever it was. And I just think, like, I'm pretty frustrated watching them because it's a variety of things. It's trying to figure out the Paulo Franz thing. I still think that can work in one way, shape, or form. It's going to require creativity from your offense that I just do not see. and I get really mad about it because they didn't trade for Bain right before training camp

or right before the season. They did it in the offseason. Why weren't you in the lab? Let's figure out what we can do offensively. Because I don't see a lot of that stuff. And it goes up and down. Like there are moments. I'm like, oh, okay, that's some nice stuff.

Okay, no, now we're back to nothing. I think that's important to note up and down. there are moments where the process is what you would hope it would be. There are moments when the process is more difficult than you want it to be because the fundamental reality of Franz and Palo is they're more or less the same height and are going to be defended by players the same height who will switch. And neither of them is the kind of three-point shooter that teams are going to be scared of. And in Palo's case, they're actively inviting him to shoot.

In fact, several recent teams, we mentioned how much we like Charles Lee's work. Tuomas Islo and Memphis is a really interesting coast. to watch tactically. The Grizzlies did it. The Hornets did it. The Cavs did it the other night. Teams are taking another step back against the magic and basically just being like,

we don't even, other than Bain, all of you guys can shoot from 18 feet out. We don't care at all. We're going under everything. Anthony Black, you're having a great season. We're just going to still let you shoot no matter what. It's just not working. Yeah.

And it's in the sense of just like, you knew kind of coming into the season. This is still stuff you have to work on. So how do we scheme around that? How do we work around that? If it's not schemable, okay, then now we have to start talking about we need to make a big earth-shattering trade, whether it's Franz or Paolo. And I think we all think it would be Paolo over Franz. And I think you're trying to figure out what you're doing in that sense.

I'm not advocating they should make that trade before anybody gets all upset. I'm just saying, like, when you're looking at, like, if we can't figure this stuff out, we have to make changes. and you made a massive move for Bain. You made a win-now trade for Bain. I was running through the street saying that's exactly what you want teams to do and organizations to do when they see the moment, they go for it. And then they did nothing after that. And I'm not talking about the, I just don't feel like they've really explored things.

I'm not seeing a ton of like, yeah, Franz and Paolo is a switchable screen. Cool. Have Anthony Black constantly set screens and then move off of that. We also just talked about how Lamello plus Cinnipple plus Miller is very switchable. the difference is two of those guys are good to great shooters and Miller's becoming a good shooter and that makes everything harder to guard. But they're just running, running better stuff. Well, that's the thing.

They're just, when you look at Orlando, they're just not running a lot of stuff. Cool. So move the spots. Run. Okay. We know they're going to go under screens. Cool. Rescreen right after that.

And then the second time when you're coming off of that, you're able to probably get downhill more likely in that situation. Create more control. fusion. Just all you have to do. It doesn't have to be our guys can't shoot, so we're in trouble and they're just going to go under and we just have to live with that. You can fight that in the way you offensively. You understand, you have a gift. You know everybody's going to go under those screens. You know what the defense is going to do. So plan for it. How am I going to get my guys looks? How am I going to get my guys opportunities? For me, they're the most disappointing team.

Because I was, and that's my own fault. That's my fault. I I had high expectations for them. They had high expectations. Their over under was 50 and a half and I took the over. Like, I mean, a few weeks ago, Zach, we talked, you know, who we thought would be locks to get out of the first round in the Eastern Conference. And I said, Orlando's one of them for me. And I was a little iffy, but I was like still confident Orlando will come out of the first

round. Now I'm just like there's, I just don't see it. It's going to be a first round exit. They're all the way down in the playing tournament. Like I don't, I'm not very enthusiastic. I'm a bit frustrated if you can't tell him. Well, I mean, just the other night against Charlotte, A, their transition defense was not good enough.

And that's when the magic start to take the foot off the pedal on defense, you start wondering like, this is supposed to be like their whole thing is like we never take the foot off the gas on defense. And they did in that game. You know, like you said, hit or miss. There are possessions where they're playing with the right purpose, where Palo screens and rolls hard and makes a play out of that at the basket, where they get Palo on a switch against a smaller guy,

and he goes inside out into the post and they play inside out, which is my favorite version maybe of Palo. I certainly like it better than the I'm going to dribble up, not pass it all, and take a 19 footer. I hate that version. And then you see them hunting ratchetups like that, and then you see two straight possessions where Lamello Ball, who they want,

Lamello Ball was hiding in various places in that game. He was hiding on Anthony Black, which is not a safe place to hide anymore. He was hiding on Noah Penda, who I actually think he's been a nice little helpful player for them off the bench. But he was stuck on Bain, two straight possessions. And the magic are just like, Palo's dribbling around searching for stuff to do.

I'm like, you've been trying to hunt that guy for like every fourth possession. And it's been difficult because he's been on your least threatening players. He's on Desmond Bain. And Desmond Bain just stands in the corner doing nothing. Palo dribbles into nothing. Nothing happens. They're like, what's going on? Like, where is the purpose to this possession?

And again, two possessions later, they'll run something with purpose. and umph and power um i also think palo i feel a little empathy for him because he hears all the noise he's been open about hearing all the noise the organization definitely heroes all the noise he watched them thrive without him with franz plus the three guards lineup of of suggs black and bane which has been very good and he came back and he has since played like someone who doesn't quite know when and how to assert himself the same way he used to and is sometimes overly deferential. And his decision making is just, again, like I talked about the Brandon Miller,

Powell is a pretty good passer, but sometimes his decision making of just like when he catches, when the offense is in motion and the ball gets to him, which is good. Like now we've created an advantage and the ball has got to our allegedly best offensive player. There are too many times when it's enough of a pause that the defense is able to reset itself and a pass that was there or a drive that was there disappears. This is why at the beginning of the season when the Janus writing was on the wall,

I was like my favorite fake trade for Janus is Palo Bancaro plus whatever they have left over, which ain't much. I think you can trade one first round pick plus something else for Janus, because you need a player who's going to help you win now. And you sort of sell high on Palo, which is not possible anymore. But it was poison-pilled. Cap rule, he's poison-pilled. But anyway, I just, I'm watching this team.

Another nice thing I want to say another nice thing. Chase Richardson, he's got some shit to his game. He's got a little creative change of pace stuff. He's a good passer. And, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what they're going to. They can't do much at the deadline because I don't think they're ready to make these

kind of seismic decisions yet. The one thing they could do is get out of the tax by dumping Tyos Jones. It just can't make a shot. Like, it's been a disaster. Any other thoughts on the magic and how disappointed you are? Yeah, I just think, you know, there's still time. But it's seeing what we've seen over, 40 to 50 games, I can't expect.

I'd be crazy to think there's going to be a massive change in terms of them finding a offensive philosophy. I'm just disappointed in that aspect. In that aspect. Like, I don't understand there's, I wanted to see them come into the season with an understanding of this is how we're going to attack on offense. And it didn't seem like they changed anything. And, you know, there, and then like you said, the defense, when the defense goes bad

for a team that that was your, your backbone, you're really in trouble. So, yeah, we'll see how it kind of plays out. But this is, this is scary times, I think, for that. Well, I still want to see them with Suggs in this version of Anthony Black and Palo and Franz Healthy, which is why I've thought like, is there a world in which they can steal eight minutes a game playing those five players, playing Palo at center? Because like Wendell Carter Jr. has had a pretty good year, but it's not like a huge stretch to say you could experiment with that.

And that starting five has been good. I have called Jalen Suggs the skeleton key of unlocking the best version of this team. And I believe that there's truth to that. He just hasn't played enough. So I do want to see that before I just sort of get, you know, whatever about it. But okay, last team, the Timberwolves, as right after I proclaim them a legit championship contendor, they have lost five games in a row. The circumstances are as such. They lost a tough game to Houston without Ant.

I can live with that. they lost the next night on a back-to-back to the spurs on the road when Anne had 55, Gobert was out. I can live with that. They blew an 18-point lead against Utah. I can't live with that. They lost at home to Chicago, four to five just absolutely baffling turnovers, classic wolves in the last five minutes of that game.

And then they lost yesterday at Golden State with all the circumstances in Minneapolis, the killings and the horror there. I think everyone with the Warriors, everyone with the wolves that I've talked to, that's just like we just had that game just what, we weren't there. They weren't there mentally. Like I can get by,

we can all get by that. When people have asked me, even before the Warriors game, to be clear, what's going on with the wolves? What have you seen from the wolves? I'm just like, there's nothing that's like shouting at me. They just have.

kind of, it's like death by a thousand paper cuts. Trickle, trickle, trickle, trickle. They just, their offense has been a little less dynamic. Like there's a little too much Randall holding the ball and not enough. And pick and roll and let's get the blender moving when they double me up top, which he's been very diligent about doing this year. The turnovers have just been like, even by Minnesota standards, just baffling in a couple of these games.

And then defensively, there's just been just hiccups of like, oh, we messed up that switch. I was late to close out on that shooter because I thought he was rotating there. It just has struck me as a team. There's not one thing that I can point to say, like, that guy's not playing well, that rotation's not working. That's whatever.

It's just a team that just collectively is in a little bit of a funk, which happens in the middle of the season, which happens when what's going on around you is happening, which happens when there's a trade deadline coming. And people know, like, there could be a move here. It also happens when a team, kind of conceives of themselves as like, yeah, you know, we have two straight conference finals,

like wake us up. No, what's the conference? You can't, there's no wake us up. Nobody's too good for the regular season. Maybe the thunder are too good for the regular season, but that's it. And if there is one common thread here, it's that the Bones Highland slump has happened. And when there's a Bones Highland slump, they're just getting nothing off the bench other than Nas Reid.

And I think that's the reason I've said all season. Like, I'll be shocked if they don't make a trade to upgrade their playmaking off the bench. I'm not off of them. I think they're a really dangerous team. I think they could actually make the finals, particularly if they make a small trade. But teams go through funks. This just feels like a funk to me.

I mean, this is definitely a funk. And of course, what's going on in Minnesota is affecting them as it would anybody else. Right? Like, this is stuff you're seeing on a daily basis. And it's very tough. I think Finch even said,

like we didn't even, it didn't feel right to play the game when they, when they postponed it from Saturday to Sunday and things like that. I think on the basketball side of it and where I'm concerned most about this team, they're finally, start of the season, they couldn't win close games. They were blowing clutch games over and over again.

And then they started to. And now we're back at where they lose the Utah game is a clutch game they lose. You're right. San Antonio, Houston, those are excusable losses. Chicago, they're up five going into the clutch moments. Yeah, and you lose that game. And that's where you look at it. And then when you go look at their offense,

their offensive rating is 116 point something. In clutch minutes, which is five minutes, games five or fewer, it's 110. So it's six points worse in that instance. And it's really become. difficult. And then I go and I go back and watch. I went this morning and watch those clutch games again to just kind of refresh myself. And I just sat through the whole time asking myself, who can make Ant's job easier? Because everybody's going to double. Everybody's

going to get the ball out of his hands and then go into an immediate denial. How can they make ants jobs easier after that? You know, and they get the ball to Randall and Randall can play I make a little bit, but it's not something I'm all that enthused about. And it's not something that I'm going to go running about. You know, Dante can do a little bit of stuff. You know, Mike Connolly's on and off. And, you know, at this point where he's at in his career, it's hard to expect that stuff. McDaniels is having a good year, but it's not in the point where we're playmaking.

Who can make Ant's job easier? I keep returning to that question. And they don't have anybody. So then it becomes very difficult for Ant. He's got to come in, take some real. tough shots. In the Utah game, comes in, dribble pull up, you know, they're down eight at that point. And he needed to get a quick three drills it. But it's like, okay, we're going to just banked on hopefully he's going to be able to make those. And there will be games where he'll do that.

That duel between him and Wemby at the end of that clutch game was a lot of fun. But like, that return always to that question. And I think when Connolly was going and was right, you had that a little bit. At least he can get other guys going and get other guys shots after they double in. I don't feel like they have that. Maybe a little bit from Randall, but not enough. And I think when you get down to close games, it's going to be really difficult for them.

And I think that's where I'm most concerned for them. Yeah, I mean, the Conley-Labert, empty side pick and roll was always kind of their security blanket. When we're going Haywire, default to that. And my colony is just old. I mean, he's been in the league for 19 years, and clearly it's not the same guy. That's totally to be expected.

And I don't think this is a case of like we're saving him for the playoffs. I think they would love to get more production out of him now. Terran Shannon Jr., who I like has been hurt. Jalen Clark is a good defensive player. Doesn't have a lot of juice offensively. Dillingham's obviously falling out of the rotation. And there's going to be this revisiting of the Nas over Alexander Walker discussion. I didn't mind it then.

I thought it was totally defensible to keep Nas over Alexander Walker. That's why you draft Rob Dillingham and other perimeter players. And Bones, Bones had it. a nice two, three weeks for them, and we'll have another nice two, three weeks for them, because that's just the nature of his game. I think they played the right way. And, you know, they only have three rotation big guys, not counting Barangay, who's been, who was interesting when they brought him off the bench a couple of games.

And it gives them sort of flexibility of if moves come that have to send, you know, one of those big guys out. They have a certain ballast behind them. So I didn't mind it. Alexander Walker's been awesome for the Hawks. He would, if you put him on this team and took Nasree, he'd, off. It probably are a little better and a little more stable, but very thin up front.

They'd have to find another sort of rotation big. I think a trade's coming. To me, they're just getting a little funky now. And Ant, like, Ant's going to get doubled. As you mentioned, I've actually kind of liked the offense when Ant is doubled. I've liked his decision making for the most part. I like when they get the ball flying around the core. Like, I don't think that's been like a weak spot for them.

I think they have enough juice. but it is their margins like jade macdanoils had a stinker yesterday when he has a stinker it's just they need everyone to be really on point around aunt i guess yeah and it becomes difficult and aunt has made the right decisions off of that and and and playmaking and and you know our buddy john janski has written about it and and it's been good stuff and aunt talking about yeah i got to get off the ball quickly or yeah i'll acknowledge i made a bad decision i love that he actually is aware of that in that stuff but it's after that And even when the ball flies, but it's like, it's, I need my best player to get the ball back in his hands afterwards.

We saw it in the Oklahoma City series where they basically just denied the hell out of him so much. They denied him in a submission, right? Like they just ended up everybody, he'd give up the ball and then it was too hard after that. And it was hard because it was the thunder in the way that they play defensively and the denials and everything. Not everybody can do that, but the teams that can can really cause a problem for them offensive. because then they can't get the ball back. And that's who needs to have the ball at the end of games more than anybody else on that team. I still love this team as is.

I mean, obviously, I have them a tier behind Oklahoma City and Denver who have in their own tier in the West. But to me, they're right there with anybody else should be. But you can't mess around. They're seventh now tied with Phoenix. Phoenix has the tiebreaker. You know, I think they should pass Phoenix. I think they should pass the Lakers.

They're now three games in the last call behind the Rockets. it forth. It's going to be interesting to see how all this conference shakes out and certainly how the next 10 days shake out. Mo De Kiel, tell people where they can find you because I say it every time. This guy worked for the spurs and the clippers. He's a real dude. If you want to know what happened in the game, like why one team won, why one team lost, what strategies they tried, why they tried them. Follow Mo. Mo, tell them where they can follow you. Well, you can follow me on all the socials. M-O-D-K-H-I-L underscore NBA. check out offside the startup I'm working with.

That's where I do a lot more videos, power rankings. I break down end-day game stuff. I broke down Brooklyn losing and double overtime to the Nets the other day over the weekend, which was a crazy game. A lot of stuff there. We have a ton of great creators, Jason Concepcion, Kofi, Abuja. We have Zach Harper, Michelle Beatle. A lot of fun stuff there.

Make sure you're checking out the double-dribble podcast with Jared Dubin and myself, where we kind of go through some fun stuff and what we're seeing in the NBA. and catch me on NBA TV every few weekends. Mo, that was clean. That was a good promo right there. Mo DeKill, you're the best. Thank you for your time, but we'll talk soon. I'm sure there's always something going on.

Oh, thank you for having me, Zach. I love coming on. This episode is brought to you by Service Now. Look, I have my dream job. I get to watch basketball, think about basketball, talk about basketball, but even dream jobs have the stuff that nobody dreamed about, the busy work that gets in the way of the actual work. Service Now's AI specialists tackle that work.

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We don't have Mike Tarico. We don't really have the theme song, but we have me and my mediocre self. It snowed. It snowed a foot here in Connecticut. And a couple days before the snowstorm, two very enterprising young men, from the local high school came with a flyer advertising their snow shoveling services. And I thought, hmm, I like the idea of having young people do this work for me.

I'm old man, shoveling snow hurts her. It's my back hurts. It hurts my legs. It hurts. My arms. I don't want to do that. Would I love to pay other people to do it? Yes, I would.

But then I thought, you know, have I really reached that stage of manhood where I can't just do this ritual of shoveling snow? I think I can do it. And I don't want to just pay for, I want to see my, I want my child to see me. some manual labor, like set an example. So you know what, we're gonna do the snow by ourselves. Now, I will say I am mediocre enough, or maybe smart enough to know that a foot of snow,

I don't wanna deal with the foot of snow. So if I have to shovel three different times during the day, I'm gonna shovel three different times during the day, three inches, four inches at a time. And man, it was piling up so fast that I almost had to shovel again right after shoveling, but I shoveled and we shoveled three times, cleared almost all of it out,

and it worked, that method was smart. Am I less of a man for doing it that way? I don't care. It was easier on my arms, easier on my legs. But here's another tip. My wife and I split the first shovel, about 10, 10.30 in the morning, maybe. I did the second one,

maybe 12, 30, 1 o'clock. And then I took a little power nap. And while I was doing the power nap, my wife took it upon herself. She's very fit. She's very strong to go out and do the third shovel. I woke up. I looked outside.

She's like halfway done with the driveway. And I'm like, oh, honey, I can, yeah, here's what you got to do. You got to offer. You got to offer. So I can come out. I can come out and do it. I can come out and help you out. You can stop right now. I'll do the rest. Key. Offer. It's got to be sincere. If she says, yes, got to be ready to put on your snow gear and do it. She shouts back, you know, no, good. I'm good. It's good. It's good. It's good. I'm good. And now here's the key. You got to offer a second time. I said, are you sure? Are you sure? Is a great question because it puts her on the spot.

Like, was that sincere? Are you sure about that? And it makes you look like a good guy for offering when you really don't want to do it and you really want to take the I've got it from her. And she said, no, I'm sure I got it. So I got out of the third snow shoveling, which leads me to my other tip for mediocrity related to this. I'm guilty of hiring people to do tasks that I should do myself, much to my wife's chagrin. Not all the time. I don't have permission to do it all the time. And I realize not everyone is in a position. where you can pay $60 to someone on task, grab it, to put together your daughter's toddler bed, which is something I did when my daughter was a toddler. You know why? Because that's $60. Hey, that guy got $60. Easy income for him.

He knows how to do that. It took 15 minutes. Would it taken us 90 minutes? Would have been minimum one fight. One step that we messed up and we've got to tear the whole thing apart and start it over. It's just not worth it. And when we moved into our house, we bought an outdoor furniture set.

And it was, you know, you got to put it all together. And of course, I was like task rabbit, task rabbit works in the suburbs too. And my wife's like, you know what? We're going to do it ourselves. We're going to set an example for our kid. We're going to do it ourselves. And we did it ourselves. We did it.

It's a nice sunny day. It took about three hours. And she said to me at the end, don't you feel better about yourself that we did this for ourselves instead of paying someone $150 to do it or whatever? And I said, no, I don't. I feel like I wasted my entire afternoon putting together outdoor furniture. And I wish I hadn't done that. That, that is mediocre.

It's also a little bit smart because the likelihood of me making a mistake, much infinitely higher than a handyman or someone who actually knows how to do it. Example, our garage door was broken maybe eight months ago during my sabbatical, a year ago during my sabbatical, and I was like, you know what, I'm going to fix this. It needs to be fixed. I need to fix it. I start playing around with it. I opened the wiring box. I'm fiddling with switches.

All of a sudden, our garage door is halfway down. and slanted, like one half is up here, one half is down here. Clearly not like something horrible has happened to the point that I now have to call the garage door guys and pay them X amount of money to undo the damage your mediocre person is done. So the lesson is if it's affordable and you can do it, pay someone to do stuff like that for you, including shoveling snow, though I didn't do it this time. That is this week's insight to mediocrity. All right, that's it for today's edition.

We'll be back later this week. Who knows what will happen in the NBA between now and then. Thanks to the great moment to Kiel for his time. Thanks to Mike, Billy, and Jonathan on production. Thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the Zach Lowe Show. We'll see you soon. Must be 21 or over in President Select States for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 and over in President D.C., Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem.

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